Anne B

Hi,

I just discovered this group. I have a 9.5 yodd and we're starting our fourth year
homeschooling. Dd is very kinesthetic and lives in the moment, while I am a list maker,
and follow the list. I think she would be happier if our "schooling" were less structured.
We go on lots of field trips, play lots of games, etc., but I am intrigued by the idea of child
led learning, and want her to be able to enjoy the benefit of homeschooling of being able
to follow her passions now instead of waiting until she's grown up. At the same time, she
avoids any kind of language arts activities. We've been through vision therapy, so the
physical issues she had that made reading and writing difficult are resolved, but she still
doesn't like those activities. My biggest concern with a less structured approach to
homeschooling is that she'll never learn to read or spell. There are so many ways to avoid
those things -- books on tape, TV/videos, etc. that she could be very functional for a long
time without "needing" to read.

Any feedback would be appreciated. If this topic of "how to be sure your child will learn
what s/he needs to learn" has been discussed recently, just point me to the archives.

Thanks!
Anne.

Robyn Coburn

<<<At the same time, she
avoids any kind of language arts activities.>>>

This is school speak. Do you mean that your daughter doesn't speak or listen
or engage in conversations or watch movies or listen to the lyrics of songs
or talk on the phone or express her opinions or draw pictures which have a
story to them or tell you stories or listen to you reading to her or ask
questions.....?

Of course she likely does most or all of these things. I mention all this
because I strongly suspect that you are separating educational activities
from life, and thinking in terms of school subjects and some on paper method
of proving that your dd has learnt some skill - outside of living it. A
journey towards Unschooling means letting go of these limiting definitions.

<<<We've been through vision therapy, so the
physical issues she had that made reading and writing difficult are
resolved, but she still
doesn't like those activities. >>>

Trying to force whatever these activities are on her in even a gentle way
shows her that you have an agenda for her learning timetable. Worse, it
continues to reinforce that she has some kind of lack in your eyes. You are
defining her in terms of her difficulties by seeking to address them
specifically.

<<<My biggest concern with a less structured approach to
homeschooling is that she'll never learn to read or spell. There are so
many ways to avoid
those things -- books on tape, TV/videos, etc. that she could be very
functional for a long
time without "needing" to read.>>>>

So exult and rejoice that she can revel in the immense cultural offerings
available to her, and know that she will learn to read in her own time.
There was an article about "late" readers on the www.unschooling.com website
- recently featured - something about "Now I can breathe again..."

When I read the phrase "be very functional" I hear a parent who is still
invested in schoolthink. It is so clinical sounding, and may be a leftover
from the therapies that you were part of. How about using the phrase "enjoy
a lot of cool stuff" instead?

<<<Any feedback would be appreciated. If this topic of "how to be sure your
child will learn
what s/he needs to learn" has been discussed recently, just point me to the
archives.>>>>

Unschooling is the only way that you can be *sure* that your child learns
what *they* need to learn, because that's kinda the definition of it. All
they do all day is learn what they *need* for the activities that interest
them, sometimes asking for assistance. I think you are mixing up what *they
really, genuinely, individually need* with what school (the dominant
ideology) tells you they need - often spurious.

Unschooling helps my family live mindfully in the present, without worrying
about future *needs*. Two days ago Jayn (4.75) wrote her name for the first
time to sign a piece of artwork. Tonight she suddenly recited our phone
number - I didn't know she had ever heard it. She is interested in being
able to label her work, and she is also very interested in telephones.

www.sandradodd.com/deschooling

The above is a link to Deschooling for Parents. It may help reassure you.

There have been threads on writing and handwriting here and on
[email protected] recently, since you mentioned writing
earlier.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[email protected]

Again, a late response. Bear with me!


In a message dated 7/30/2004 9:07:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
WildWingsAcademy@... writes:

At the same time, she avoids any kind of language arts activities. We've
been through vision therapy, so the physical issues she had that made reading
and writing difficult are resolved, but she still doesn't like those
activities.<<<<<

They *may* be resolved in YOUR mind, but not hers. That's probably why she's
not yet interested. She needs to heal from all that time in therapy. Take a
break. Don't force it.

>>>>>My biggest concern with a less structured approach to homeschooling is
that she'll never learn to read or spell. There are so many ways to avoid
those things -- books on tape, TV/videos, etc. that she could be very
functional for a long time without "needing" to read. <<<

Do you REALLY think a child will never learn to read or spell? Really? A
child who is surrounded by the written word, who sees her parents read joyfully,
who is ready to read?

For probably 10-14 months, you functioned quite well not knowing how to
walk, but you did it! For 15-16 years, you functioned quite well not knowing how
to drive, but you did it. So many years with knowing how to cook, to clean,
to swim, to knit, to .... <g>

She'll function quite well until she actually feels the need to learn. Then
she'll do it. We promise!

~Kelly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan Maguire

Hi,
I'm Susan SAHM-WAHM to two boys 5 1/2 and 2 1/2. I'm hoping to unschool them. My oldest "should have" started kindergarten last September but we "held him back" since he was a November baby. Really I was stalling and dh thought he was too still too young. Now another September approaches...

I've been reading through the posts here and several other unschooling and Radical Unschooling sites. The unschooling philosophies of what are considered the traditional subject areas I have no problem with. It simply makes sense to me that through play and curiosity (and I have two very curious ones!) they will learn far more than they could sitting in a classroom being forced to follow a regime that has nothing to do with their own hourly, daily, seasonal or you-name-it clock.

Buuuuuut...what I am mystified and unclear about is the discussion on limits and rules. Okay, I have come across the comment "arbitrary" rules but still I'm not quite comfortable. I'd love to hear what some of you have to say on the following topics.

Food. As I mentioned my children are 2 and 5. I never tell them how much to eat or that they have to eat. I put a little of everything we're serving on their plate and they eat what they feel like from the plate. My oldest boy has not eaten fish (knowingly) for at least a year. But it is on his plate if that is what we have cooked - he doesn't have to eat it. There are always a few other things on the plate too. He did the same thing with red meat for about a year. And with no pride lost or anything else, since no comment was ever made about his choice to leave it, he started eating it again recently. But we don't have junk or processed food in the house, in fact we hardly have any packaged food in the house. We pretty well eat organic whole foods and that's it. My husband and I have been eating that way since long before we had kids. My feeling is that many of the ingredients in foods today are not food at all and are actually harmful. We have many chemicals allowed in our
"foods" that are already banned in other countries. Soooo if someday we are in a store and one of my children asks me to buy something with a mile-long list of ingredients on it how can I not say, "Sorry, honey."? Any more so than someone else might say their ten year-old can not try marijuana. So is this considered an arbitrary limit?

It seems to me that foods with high sugar levels, fast foods like McDonald's foods etc. are actually addictive. So if your child starts in on it at a young age and a parent says "yes" whenever they request it, they could easily become addicted to junk food. I do have a nephew who has never had limits on food and the only "restaurant" he will eat in is McDonald's and he does eat there several times a week (yes, I will concede that the family modelling is a little lacking in this case). With obesity, ADHD, and diabetes levels where they currently are and are heading, isn't this somewhere that we need to do a little bit more than just modelling?

T.V. At what age do you allow your children complete control over what they watch? Let's face it, there is some pretty offensive stuff on television. Are the unlimited television comments for teens or small children as well? I feel half of what's on T.V. would actually terrify my kids. And even for somewhat older kids, how often are they mature enough to not be seduced by the allure of just how cool and how perfect half the T.V. characters are? Would it be okay to let a foul-mouthed, sick minded person sit down and have an extensive conversation with a child? Is this not what we sometimes invite into our homes when we let a child watch anything they want?

I'd love to hear thoughts on this! I can be convinced otherwise! I simply need to understand the reasoning here. They unschooling parents whose thoughts I've been reading are obviously loving, kind, thoughtful intelligent parents and this is why I am asking.

Warm regards,
Susan


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Schuyler

Unschooling comes from the foundation belief that learning happens, like
breathing, like growing, like death and taxes, it is a part of being alive,
a part of being human. As you watch your two grow and learn and talk and
walk and breathe you realize that they are thinking, creative, people. You
also begin to trust them. You trust that the relationship they are creating
with the world around them is an informed relationship, a relationship that
exists, not within a vacuum, but with their tastes and opinions and values.
You trust that because they are thinking, interesting, respected individuals
they will not fall prey to those things that are looking for needy,
reactive, scared people to take advantage of. And I think it is that kind of
relationship, that kind of parent-child interaction that leads to radical
unschooling.

I know that television isn't scary. I know, from absolute first hand
experience that my 10 year old doesn't want to see scary or sexual things.
He just doesn't. I know that he might change his mind someday, but right
now, those things are too intense and too much for him to watch, even
cuddled up in my arms. And they don't appeal. I like watching Doctor Who,
and usually Simon watches with me, but the last week's episode had a huge
tense moment with people being attacked by these reverse Medusa beings who
turn into stone when they are seen, but if you blink... Anyhow, both he and
Linnaea (7) wanted me to change the channel, so I did. They didn't want to
be scared, they didn't like the tension. They got to dictate their own
relationship with a scary show.

I know that food isn't an issue. I know that because they can have any food
they want, and what they want is food that is varied and interesting to
them. Linnaea's favorite food is an Ethiopian peanut wat and she loves nori
and when we ate at an amazing south Indian restaurant in London earlier this
week, she and Simon happily ate dosas and drank laasis. Simon loves bean and
cheese burritos and this morning, when there were many and varied chips and
chocolates and I could have easily done up some french fries or any of these
other things, he chose to make eggy bread (British French toast without
syrup) which got Linnaea excited so she made some and they both enjoyed it
immensely. I also know that Linnaea likes chips and ice cream and chocolate
and Simon likes bubble gum and ginger ale and bbq flavored pringles, so we
have those things around too. But when we went to a friend's yard for a
campout on Saturday to which we brought digestive biscuits (the closest
things to graham crackers I can find in the UK), chocolate bars and
marshmallows. I showed all the Brit kids how to make s'mores. Many of them
devoured them, but my two, who have access to all kinds of foods, ate a few
bites and handed them back. They wanted the experience but didn't need the
overwhelming sweetness. For them food has no association with reward or
punishment or with scarcity. And Linnaea was quite reticent to even join in
as she doesn't eat meat and the marshmallows we can get here all have beef
gelatine in them. She chose to take a bite, and chose not to finish the
s'more. It wasn't so tempting that she had to walk to far beyond her ethical
decisions. And what she eats is her choice. She's given up her favorite
chocolate since they decided to start using rennet. That is her decision,
not me handing down my ethics. I'm an omnivore, never been a vegetarian, it
isn't a moral issue for me.

There are some wonderful things that have been written and collected and put
up for others to read about food choices and television choices at
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/ (about 2/3rds of the way down in the left
hand column) and at http://sandradodd.com/tv oh, and if you want to read
something about how limiting access to something can make it that much more
valuable read Pam's response here:
http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics.html . I'm sure there are others. This
is sort of the core set of questions when people come to thinking about
unschooling, it is often the largest boogeyman in a parent's perspective on
the dangers of raising a child. But really, television isn't scary, it can
open up so much of the world and lead to the most amazing questions. As can
food.

Schuyler

www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Maguire" <asmb65@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 8:55 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Intro and Question


> Hi
> I'm Susan SAHM-WAHM to two boys 5 1/2 and 2 1/2. I'm hoping to unschool
> them. My oldest "should have" started kindergarten last September but we
> "held him back" since he was a November baby. Really I was stalling and dh
> thought he was too still too young. Now another September approaches...
>
> I've been reading through the posts here and several other unschooling and
> Radical Unschooling sites. The unschooling philosophies of what are
> considered the traditional subject areas I have no problem with. It simply
> makes sense to me that through play and curiosity (and I have two very
> curious ones!) they will learn far more than they could sitting in a
> classroom being forced to follow a regime that has nothing to do with
> their own hourly, daily, seasonal or you-name-it clock.
>
> Buuuuuut...what I am mystified and unclear about is the discussion on
> limits and rules. Okay, I have come across the comment "arbitrary" rules
> but still I'm not quite comfortable. I'd love to hear what some of you
> have to say on the following topics.
>
> Food. As I mentioned my children are 2 and 5. I never tell them how much
> to eat or that they have to eat. I put a little of everything we're
> serving on their plate and they eat what they feel like from the plate. My
> oldest boy has not eaten fish (knowingly) for at least a year. But it is
> on his plate if that is what we have cooked - he doesn't have to eat it.
> There are always a few other things on the plate too. He did the same
> thing with red meat for about a year. And with no pride lost or anything
> else, since no comment was ever made about his choice to leave it, he
> started eating it again recently. But we don't have junk or processed food
> in the house, in fact we hardly have any packaged food in the house. We
> pretty well eat organic whole foods and that's it. My husband and I have
> been eating that way since long before we had kids. My feeling is that
> many of the ingredients in foods today are not food at all and are
> actually harmful. We have many chemicals allowed in our
> "foods" that are already banned in other countries. Soooo if someday we
> are in a store and one of my children asks me to buy something with a
> mile-long list of ingredients on it how can I not say, "Sorry, honey."?
> Any more so than someone else might say their ten year-old can not try
> marijuana. So is this considered an arbitrary limit?
>
> It seems to me that foods with high sugar levels, fast foods like
> McDonald's foods etc. are actually addictive. So if your child starts in
> on it at a young age and a parent says "yes" whenever they request it,
> they could easily become addicted to junk food. I do have a nephew who has
> never had limits on food and the only "restaurant" he will eat in is
> McDonald's and he does eat there several times a week (yes, I will concede
> that the family modelling is a little lacking in this case). With obesity,
> ADHD, and diabetes levels where they currently are and are heading, isn't
> this somewhere that we need to do a little bit more than just modelling?
>
> T.V. At what age do you allow your children complete control over what
> they watch? Let's face it, there is some pretty offensive stuff on
> television. Are the unlimited television comments for teens or small
> children as well? I feel half of what's on T.V. would actually terrify my
> kids. And even for somewhat older kids, how often are they mature enough
> to not be seduced by the allure of just how cool and how perfect half the
> T.V. characters are? Would it be okay to let a foul-mouthed, sick minded
> person sit down and have an extensive conversation with a child? Is this
> not what we sometimes invite into our homes when we let a child watch
> anything they want?
>
> I'd love to hear thoughts on this! I can be convinced otherwise! I simply
> need to understand the reasoning here. They unschooling parents whose
> thoughts I've been reading are obviously loving, kind, thoughtful
> intelligent parents and this is why I am asking.
>
> Warm regards,
> Susan
>
>
> Get news delivered with the All new Yahoo! Mail. Enjoy RSS feeds
> right on your Mail page. Start today at
> http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Fetteroll

On Jun 18, 2007, at 3:55 AM, Susan Maguire wrote:

> Soooo if someday we are in a store and one of my children asks me
> to buy something with a mile-long list of ingredients on it how can
> I not say, "Sorry, honey."? Any more so than someone else might say
> their ten year-old can not try marijuana. So is this considered an
> arbitrary limit?

What would happen if your child ate that food once? Would he die?
Would he get sick? What if he ate it twice? What if he ate it ten times?

What would happen to your relationship if you said no? Think about
how you would feel if your husband said no to what you felt was a
reasonable request with an explanation that he felt was reasonable
but you felt was off?

When we put fences around things, those things become more
attractive. *Do* you want Oreos to be something put on a pedestal as
a forbidden food to be indulged in only when the parents aren't looking.

No does far more damage than a whole bag of Oreos.

But just because we don't say no, doesn't mean we never discuss
nutrition. *Trust* your children to explore and be able to find their
own answers. Otherwise what you're doing is putting them in a box to
memorize your answers.

> It seems to me that foods with high sugar levels, fast foods like
> McDonald's foods etc. are actually addictive. So if your child
> starts in on it at a young age and a parent says "yes" whenever
> they request it, they could easily become addicted to junk food.

While it sounds like a reasonable assumption, does it happen in
unschooling families?

While my daughter did for a while like McDonalds, during the
prepubescent years when she was growing out in preparation for
growing up, she rarely eats it now. If it were addictive, she would
show signs of it today. She doesn't.

There's more going on in people choosing McDonalds than addiction. It
would be comforting to believe that. We could solve obesity by never
letting a Big Mac past our lips ;-) But it's not that simple.

> T.V. At what age do you allow your children complete control over
> what they watch?

As soon as she could turn it on :-)

> Let's face it, there is some pretty offensive stuff on television.

Why do you think your children would choose to watch offensive stuff?

If you let them have the run of the library do they head for the
graphic pictures of war and the bodice busters?

> I feel half of what's on T.V. would actually terrify my kids.

Why would they choose to watch what terrifies them?

When my daughter flipped through channels, she skipped anything live
action, searching for cartoons. By having the freedom to choose, she
learned to discriminate between what she felt would interest her and
what she felt wouldn't.

> And even for somewhat older kids, how often are they mature enough
> to not be seduced by the allure of just how cool and how perfect
> half the T.V. characters are?

Why do you think characters on TV would be more attractive than what
you offer at home?

I'm honestly not being snarky! :-)

If home is loving and peaceful and supportive, why would a child want
to trade that for something else that's less loving?

That doesn't mean they won't try things that are different! Goth can
be fun! :-) But a child who dresses all in black because it's fun to
try on that persona who feels supported is totally different than a
child who feels they're not meeting up to the standards of their
parents who finds something attractive in the darkness of goth.

> Would it be okay to let a foul-mouthed, sick minded person sit down
> and have an extensive conversation with a child? Is this not what
> we sometimes invite into our homes when we let a child watch
> anything they want?

Why do you think the lifestyle and attitude of a foul-mouthed person
would be more attractive than what you offer?

I find it illuminating to see the world through a mindset that is
very different than my own. But that doesn't mean I want to turn into
that! I find it fascinating to see the world through Cartman's eyes
on South Park, but I'm glad he lives in the box and I can turn him
off rather than living next door to him!

All your questions come up often :-) I've answered them loads of
times in various ways over the last 11 years and it might help you
understand if you look through some answers I've collected at:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Maguire <asmb65@...>

Buuuuuut...what I am mystified and unclear about is the discussion on
limits and
rules. Okay, I have come across the comment "arbitrary" rules but still
I'm not
quite comfortable. I'd love to hear what some of you have to say on the
following topics.

Food. <snip> My husband and I have been eating that way since long
before we had kids. My feeling is that
many of the ingredients in foods today are not food at all and are
actually
harmful. We have many chemicals allowed in our
"foods" that are already banned in other countries. Soooo if someday
we are in
a store and one of my children asks me to buy something with a
mile-long list of
ingredients on it how can I not say, "Sorry, honey."?

-=-=-=-

Again, I've been away from the computer, so I apologize for my delay.

At what age, do you think, would that "Sorry, honey" no longer work?
And do you plan to keep your children in your home, following your
rules about food, forever?

It's different when they are really little, but as soon as they start
visiting others withOUT your food limits, what do you think they will
do? Do you think they will stay away from Pringles and Oreos? Or do you
think they will *try* one? If they *do* try one and LIKE it...what
then? Will they be denied what they like? Will they be shamed about
their tastes? Will they feel guilty? Will they seek these forbidden
foods and sneak around to get them? Will they be forced to lie to you
to get what they want?

What do *you* think will happen?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Any more so than someone else might say their ten year-old can not try
marijuana. So is this considered
an arbitrary limit?

-=-=-=-=-

Equating a Snickers bar with marijuana is silly. <g>

But you said ten year old, so...

At what age *would* it be OK for a person to try marijuana? Eleven?
Fifteen? Thirty-two? How about that Snickers bar? <g>

At almost 47, I've never smoked it, by choice. But my 19 year old son
has. Do you think I could have stopped him? Do you think I could now?
How?

Same with the Snickers bar---how long, do you think, do you have
control over what they do/eat/smoke?

What will you do when they decide thay want to do/eat/smoke something
you disapprove of? Forbid it? How do you think that'll work? And what
will be the outcome of THAT?

-=-=-=-=-=-

It seems to me that foods with high sugar levels, fast foods like
McDonald's
foods etc. are actually addictive. So if your child starts in on it at
a young
age and a parent says "yes" whenever they request it, they could easily
become
addicted to junk food. I do have a nephew who has never had limits on
food and
the only "restaurant" he will eat in is McDonald's and he does eat
there several
times a week (yes, I will concede that the family modelling is a little
lacking
in this case). With obesity, ADHD, and diabetes levels where they
currently are
and are heading, isn't this somewhere that we need to do a little bit
more than
just modelling?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

My husband used to freak out that I would take Cameron (as a little
tyke) to McDonald's almost whenever he asked. He LOVED French
fries---and the toys! <G> He's now 19 and (again) a vegetarian. He only
drinks water. He monitors every thing that goes into his body. He eats
very little, if any, packaged food, and cooks up a storm. Addicted?

My other son, Duncan, is now 11. I would also take him to McDonald's
almost whenever he asked. You couldn't MAKE him walk in the place now.
His favorite restaurants are Sakura, McAllister's, Hooligan's, and
Panera. Addicted?

One of the things we would do IS model. If one of the boys wanted
McD's, I'd go there; but then I would go to the place *I* found more
attractive. I wouldn't necessarily get a Big Mac (although I did on
occasion), but would opt for something better (in my opinion). If my
son asked why, I'd tell him that I didn't want McD's.

And what would you suggest we do differently? Forbid certain foods? It
won't work. Well, it WILL when the children are young, but as soon as
they are not under your direct supervision, they *will* try other
things---the forbidden things---and we all know what happens with the
forbidden! <g>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

T.V. At what age do you allow your children complete control over what
they
watch?

-=-=-=-=-=-

They're 19 and 11---they've always been able to watch anything. At 11,
Duncan still prefers to watch cartoons and animal shows. He also like
The Most Extreme, Mythbusters, and Good Eats (we all love Alton Brown.
<g>)

Cameron (19) watches Good Eats, Family Guy, South Park, and That 70s
Show. Nothing else (unless it's a movie that we've all chosen to
watch). When he was littler, he watched cartoons---and that was about
it---we didn't have a zillion channels like now.

-=-=-=-=-

Let's face it, there is some pretty offensive stuff on television.

-=-=-=-=-

Let's face it, there are some pretty offensive BOOKS out there. Do you
want to limit books too? How would you go about that? Do you think a
child would choose to open Charles Dickens or Stephen King? Generally
they choose books with bright, colorful pages and few words.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Are the unlimited television comments for teens or small children as
well?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

They really are for both. But I've yet to meet a small child who
*wants* to watch anything remotely offensive.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I feel half of what's on T.V. would actually terrify my kids.

-=-=-=-=-=-=

But I seriously doubt that they would CHOOSE to watch something that
would terrify them. Would *you*? Why should we think less of our kids?

-=-=-=-=-

And even for somewhat older kids, how often are they mature enough to
not be seduced by the allure of
just how cool and how perfect half the T.V. characters are?

-=-=-=-=-=-

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

You're worried about children's being "seduced by the allure" of "cool
and perfect" tv characters???

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Would it be okay to let a foul-mouthed, sick minded person sit down and
have an extensive
conversation with a child? Is this not what we sometimes invite into
our homes
when we let a child watch anything they want?

-=-=-=-=-

I'm pretty foul-mouthed---and have been accused of being sick-minded on
more than one occasion (of course, Deb Lewis has ME beat! <G>). And I
have extensive conversations with my kids every day! <G>

You're assuming a child would WANT that. And you're assuming that a
child can't see straight through it even if he does want that.

We had a thread here a while back. Sylvia was uncomfortable with her
sons' watching Futurama and Family Guy. The language is crass. The
situations are sick. There's a lot a parent *could* be fearful of there.

But our family watches these shows. None of us behave like that. (Well,
*I* have a potty mouth---but NOT because of those shows! <G>) My boys
are gentlemen and are very polite.

We talk about the behaviours of the characters---and their language and
situations. Duncan yells at them for being so stupid! <G> They're
CARTOONS! And they're supposed to be stupid!

-=-=-=-=-=-

I'd love to hear thoughts on this! I can be convinced otherwise! I
simply need
to understand the reasoning here. They unschooling parents whose
thoughts I've
been reading are obviously loving, kind, thoughtful intelligent parents
and this
is why I am asking.

-=-=-=-

As the parent of very young children, you have a LOT of control right
now---of food and TV and situations and ---all sorts of stuff. You
*can* limit everything in their lives, and it seems ok.

But as your children age, you lose control: moreso with the older child
than the younger ('cause as the older learns new stuff, it makes it
harder to shelter/shield the younger from the cool, new things). When
they start visiting others and are able to make their own choices
withOUT you around, you're assuming that they will stay true to your
beliefs/preferences.

But they aren't you. I'm guessing you probably didn't grow up with your
beliefs---but that you developed them by testing and research and
questioning and trying new things. They will need to do that too. By
LIVING your beliefs, you will model what you hold true and dear. That
may not end up being your children's truths, however! They need to
examine and explore their own worlds and come to their own conclusions.

By limiting their worlds, you are not allowing them to make these
scientific observations. And that's what they ARE: scientific
explorations and experiments. They are testing their world---seeing how
things fit and what works for them. They won't choose to do dangerous
stuff. Children LIKE to be safe. But they also NEED to explore and
figure things out (which sometimes results in injury---BUT they've
learned that, and that's extremely important!!!). Limitations don't
allow for that important growth and learning.

TV and food limits don't allow a child to find out what he *really*
likes and dislikes. It allows *you* to make that decision *for* him.
What he learns is that you believe that he's not capable to make these
decisions for himself. The belief that you ARE a capable person (and
that your *parents* believe that you are capable---WOW!) is so
empowering! Children NEED that---and they deserve it!

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>


While my daughter did for a while like McDonalds, during the
prepubescent years when she was growing out in preparation for
growing up, she rarely eats it now. If it were addictive, she would
show signs of it today. She doesn't.

-=-=-=-=-

Right, I just wrote about that same situation (should've read further!
<g>).

Neither of my boys choose McDonald's now---even after years of it's
being OK with me. *Their* choices!




~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


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Julie

-- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
>
>
> While my daughter did for a while like McDonalds, during the
> prepubescent years when she was growing out in preparation for
> growing up, she rarely eats it now. If it were addictive, she would
> show signs of it today. She doesn't.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Right, I just wrote about that same situation (should've read
further!
> <g>).
>
> Neither of my boys choose McDonald's now---even after years of
it's
> being OK with me. *Their* choices!
>
>


I have to respond to this McDonalds thing. My husband loves their
fries and I dislike almost all of their food but we go often enough.
The surprising thing is that my daughter who is 4 would rather go to
a sit down resturant.

oh and about the tv thing the same daughter loves the travel
channel, and CSI and DOG the bounty hunter, she will even watch soap
operas if the music is intense. When there is a emotional situation
happening I just ask her what is happening? She usually does not see
the "negative" things happening just the factual. While watching CSi
last night I asked her what she liked about the show she said that
they try to find the bad guys when someone gets dead. SHe also
realized that the dead people had their eyes open. I always tell her
we can change it to something eles if she wants to- usually she just
wants me to sit by her.

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Susan Maguire <asmb65@...>
wrote:
>It simply makes sense to me that through play and curiosity (and I
have two very curious ones!) they will learn far more than they
could sitting in a classroom being forced to follow a regime that
has nothing to do with their own hourly, daily, seasonal or you-name-
it clock.
*******************

This is something to think about wrt food, too. Kids' eating habits
will change in relation to growth and development, seasons, moods,
and overall health. One of the interesting things about not placing
arbitrary limits on food is you get to see this - and your kids get
to experience it directly. When they're little, you many have to
observe some of the patterns for them and point them out (or not,
some kids are pretty self-aware in this regard) but as they get
older, they become able to make decisions about what and when to eat
based on needs and wants, rather than "shoulds".

You've probably seen this already with the foods you are offering
them - but you're standing in the way of their "play and curiosity"
by not allowing them to try things that look interesting to them.
You're giving them mixed messages about learning. *Some* topics are
fine to explore to their hearts' content, but not all - and you're
deciding which.

> T.V. At what age do you allow your children complete control over
>what they watch?

I'm going to take you back to your own premise that children learn
by playing and following their curiosity at their own pace. It works
with tv, too. Just as you wouldn't leave your kids with a pile of
manipulatives and expect them to derive the laws of euclidian
geometry, you wouldn't leave your kids with the tv and expect them
to figure it all out on their own. You can help them play and
explore and support their journey.

>Would it be okay to let a foul-mouthed, sick minded person sit down
>and have an extensive conversation with a child?

Think about that from a different angle - would you *make* your
child stay in that situation? If someone is giving your kids the
willies, would you make them hang out with that person? Or would you
empower your child to leave that situation? Sometimes kids want to
explore less-than-ideal relationships, and that's tricky, but it
*is* possible to support their exploration in a way that leaves the
child feeling supported and empowered. That's much better than
saying "no" and having the child sneak off to persue the
relationship anyway.

>It simply makes sense to me that through play and curiosity (and I
>have two very curious ones!) they will learn far more than they
>could sitting in a classroom being forced to follow a regime that
>has nothing to do with their own hourly, daily, seasonal or you-
>name-it clock.

I've been thinking about the idea that kids "need consistency" and I
think this is one way that unschooling really supports that
particular theory. With unschooling, though, its more a consistency
of underlying principles, than being dogmatic about the nuts and
bolts of daily life. If we assume kids are thoughtful people,
though, that kind of consistency is really the more important.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Debra Rossing

LOL on the whole McDonald's situation: when DH was a teen, had wheels
and a part time job, he'd eat McD's morning, noon, and night whenever
possible. It was something that had been unavailable for a long time
(for family financial reasons). Jump forward to now, 20ish years later.
Eating any kind of fast food burger causes great gastro distress, the
fried ones even more than the "flame broiled" ones. DS, however, likes
BK cheeseburgers (he's 9 and refuses to eat at McD's even if they have
the better toy on occasion). So, when they want to get fast food, they
go to BK and DH gets a chicken sandwich or a salad. And we're all now
moving toward a more plant based eating pattern (though we do still ALL
love sushi, yes even my 9 yr old - sushi was his choice of a birthday
dinner).

Deb


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Anne Marie Shotwell

....he's 9 and refuses to eat at McD's even if they have
the better toy on occasion)

My kids are so varied about what each of likes and I have on occasion
gone to 2-3 different drive thrus to appease everyone. Just last week
they wanted toys from Mc D. I felt there was no reason to deny them the
toy since they don't like the food so I just went there and got the
toy...you can purchase them without the meal they are like 2 bucks by
themselves.:)!

Anne Marie