I was wondering about the future
jnaisi
I have been reading what everyone has been saying and on a lot of it I
can see it's benefits. However I am wondering about the future.
I want to word this without it sounding attacking or rude or anything
negative as that is not my intent.
With the way you are raising you child(ren), do you feel they will
handle society well. What I mean is when you go out to work you are
not asked how you feel about something.. Nor are you asked if you want
to complete a particular task etc. Since this is how you are at home
do you feel they will be able to make the transition into a world that
may not and actually most likely will not support that way of thinking.
Do you feel they will get a shock when others do not treat them the
way they are used to being treated at home?
I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a task
(at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
your feelings on it.
How do you prepare your child to deal with this?
can see it's benefits. However I am wondering about the future.
I want to word this without it sounding attacking or rude or anything
negative as that is not my intent.
With the way you are raising you child(ren), do you feel they will
handle society well. What I mean is when you go out to work you are
not asked how you feel about something.. Nor are you asked if you want
to complete a particular task etc. Since this is how you are at home
do you feel they will be able to make the transition into a world that
may not and actually most likely will not support that way of thinking.
Do you feel they will get a shock when others do not treat them the
way they are used to being treated at home?
I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a task
(at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
your feelings on it.
How do you prepare your child to deal with this?
Christy Mahoney
If by "handle society well" you mean react the way most people do, I
think it would be great if my kids did not handle it well. I hope
they will actually think about what they are asked/told to do, and
decide if it is worth it to them. Most people think, "This is my
job, so I have to do this task." I think it would be great if
everyone realized that these are all CHOICES.
-Christy M.
think it would be great if my kids did not handle it well. I hope
they will actually think about what they are asked/told to do, and
decide if it is worth it to them. Most people think, "This is my
job, so I have to do this task." I think it would be great if
everyone realized that these are all CHOICES.
-Christy M.
> With the way you are raising you child(ren), do you feel they willare
> handle society well. What I mean is when you go out to work you
> not asked how you feel about something.. Nor are you asked if youwant
> to complete a particular task etc. Since this is how you are athome
> do you feel they will be able to make the transition into a worldthat
> may not and actually most likely will not support that way ofthinking.
>task
> Do you feel they will get a shock when others do not treat them the
> way they are used to being treated at home?
>
> I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a
> (at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
> your feelings on it.
>
> How do you prepare your child to deal with this?
>
Julie Hampton
I hope my kids also do not conform to society but find their passion and niche in society. I really do not want my kids to "get a job and be told what to do" I want them to explore and leave their mark on society. Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: jnaisi<mailto:robyn.bentley@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:55 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] I was wondering about the future
I have been reading what everyone has been saying and on a lot of it I
can see it's benefits. However I am wondering about the future.
I want to word this without it sounding attacking or rude or anything
negative as that is not my intent.
With the way you are raising you child(ren), do you feel they will
handle society well. What I mean is when you go out to work you are
not asked how you feel about something.. Nor are you asked if you want
to complete a particular task etc. Since this is how you are at home
do you feel they will be able to make the transition into a world that
may not and actually most likely will not support that way of thinking.
Do you feel they will get a shock when others do not treat them the
way they are used to being treated at home?
I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a task
(at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
your feelings on it.
How do you prepare your child to deal with this?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: jnaisi <robyn.bentley@...>
With the way you are raising you child(ren), do you feel they will
handle society well. What I mean is when you go out to work you are
not asked how you feel about something.. Nor are you asked if you want
to complete a particular task etc. Since this is how you are at home
do you feel they will be able to make the transition into a world that
may not and actually most likely will not support that way of thinking.
-=-=-=-=
Cameron's 19. He's handling society just fine.
In fact, when I was his age, I didn't handle things nearly as well.
Granted, Cameron is still on the naive side---but that's OK. He really
expects the best out of others---at least as good as they will get from
him! He doesn't let other run all over him though---he's QUITE happy to
stand up for himself. Much more so than I would at his age. Authority
carried a LOT of weight with me: I would crumble if someone were "in
authority." Cameron is happy to challenge *anyone* if that person is
*wrong*. Blows me away. Has had no problem asking for and justifying
raises or challenging "how things are done."
-=-=-=-=-=-
Do you feel they will get a shock when others do not treat them the
way they are used to being treated at home?
-=-=-=-=-
He IS shocked, and then he tries to fix it (just like at home).
-=-=-=-=-=-
I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a task
(at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
your feelings on it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
How do you prepare your child to deal with this? (Throwing your own
question back at you. <g>) Do you want him to do whatever his boss or
professor says? WhatEVER?????
You know, that was one of the problems with the Calley case (are y'all
too young to remember that? <g>). William Cally was a lieuteant in the
US army during the Viet Nam war who said he was "just following orders"
when he and his men massacred over 300 civilians in the village of My
Lai. "Just following orders"---they were given a task and completed it
depite their feelings about it.
I think it's a REALLY bad idea to do whatever task depite your feelings
about it. REALLY bad.
I hope my boys never have that expectation!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: jnaisi <robyn.bentley@...>
With the way you are raising you child(ren), do you feel they will
handle society well. What I mean is when you go out to work you are
not asked how you feel about something.. Nor are you asked if you want
to complete a particular task etc. Since this is how you are at home
do you feel they will be able to make the transition into a world that
may not and actually most likely will not support that way of thinking.
-=-=-=-=
Cameron's 19. He's handling society just fine.
In fact, when I was his age, I didn't handle things nearly as well.
Granted, Cameron is still on the naive side---but that's OK. He really
expects the best out of others---at least as good as they will get from
him! He doesn't let other run all over him though---he's QUITE happy to
stand up for himself. Much more so than I would at his age. Authority
carried a LOT of weight with me: I would crumble if someone were "in
authority." Cameron is happy to challenge *anyone* if that person is
*wrong*. Blows me away. Has had no problem asking for and justifying
raises or challenging "how things are done."
-=-=-=-=-=-
Do you feel they will get a shock when others do not treat them the
way they are used to being treated at home?
-=-=-=-=-
He IS shocked, and then he tries to fix it (just like at home).
-=-=-=-=-=-
I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a task
(at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
your feelings on it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
How do you prepare your child to deal with this? (Throwing your own
question back at you. <g>) Do you want him to do whatever his boss or
professor says? WhatEVER?????
You know, that was one of the problems with the Calley case (are y'all
too young to remember that? <g>). William Cally was a lieuteant in the
US army during the Viet Nam war who said he was "just following orders"
when he and his men massacred over 300 civilians in the village of My
Lai. "Just following orders"---they were given a task and completed it
depite their feelings about it.
I think it's a REALLY bad idea to do whatever task depite your feelings
about it. REALLY bad.
I hope my boys never have that expectation!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Sylvia Toyama
I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a task
(at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
your feelings on it.
***
First, while you may expected to complete it, you still have a choice not to. The question is whether you want what the completed job will give you -- a paycheck, respect for your work, joy in accomplishing what you do, etc.
And yes, I do think our kids wil be able to finish a task, keep a joy and manage in society. I've noticed that as my boys get older, they are more likely to complete what they start. They're even more likely to take on tasks they wouldn't have in the past. Earlier today, while I was hanging clothes to dry, Andy asked me to make pancakes. I said I would as soon as I was free. His next question was 'How do I make them myself?" I talked him thru it, calling out ingredients and amounts while I hung clothes. He found things, mixed up and cooked the pancakes. Even once I was done with the clothes, he continued to pour and flip pancakes. Sunday I came home from a walk to find him scrubbing the toilet in the hall bathroom -- he'd noticed it needed cleaning and did it himself. He's beginning to show initiative, and does things my Mom had to force us to do! All just because he sees thigns that need to be done.
It helps to have stories, too, of the adventures of grown unschoolers, too. Kids who have gone to college, tackling classes they weren't crazy about, but because it was part of the curriculum; who've found and held jobs, learning about how the 'real' world does work along the way. I'm not worried about my kids managing the future -- well, at least not because of unschooling. I expect they'll be much more adept at learning new skills on a job, and much more willing to do what's required of the job they've chosen -- because as unschoolers, they're very aware that everything we do is a choice.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
your feelings on it.
***
First, while you may expected to complete it, you still have a choice not to. The question is whether you want what the completed job will give you -- a paycheck, respect for your work, joy in accomplishing what you do, etc.
And yes, I do think our kids wil be able to finish a task, keep a joy and manage in society. I've noticed that as my boys get older, they are more likely to complete what they start. They're even more likely to take on tasks they wouldn't have in the past. Earlier today, while I was hanging clothes to dry, Andy asked me to make pancakes. I said I would as soon as I was free. His next question was 'How do I make them myself?" I talked him thru it, calling out ingredients and amounts while I hung clothes. He found things, mixed up and cooked the pancakes. Even once I was done with the clothes, he continued to pour and flip pancakes. Sunday I came home from a walk to find him scrubbing the toilet in the hall bathroom -- he'd noticed it needed cleaning and did it himself. He's beginning to show initiative, and does things my Mom had to force us to do! All just because he sees thigns that need to be done.
It helps to have stories, too, of the adventures of grown unschoolers, too. Kids who have gone to college, tackling classes they weren't crazy about, but because it was part of the curriculum; who've found and held jobs, learning about how the 'real' world does work along the way. I'm not worried about my kids managing the future -- well, at least not because of unschooling. I expect they'll be much more adept at learning new skills on a job, and much more willing to do what's required of the job they've chosen -- because as unschoolers, they're very aware that everything we do is a choice.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
And yes, I do think our kids wil be able to finish a task, keep a joy and manage in society.
****
okay, so I meant 'keep a job' -- but, hey, I think I like it better as keep a joy....
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
****
okay, so I meant 'keep a job' -- but, hey, I think I like it better as keep a joy....
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***What I mean is when you go out to work you are
not asked how you feel about something.. Nor are you asked if you want
to complete a particular task etc.***
I am! My boss asks me if I want certain projects and if I were to get stuck
she'd finish a project for me. I work at a job I like, I work only as much
as I want, I do only the jobs I want and so your statement isn't true of all
jobs! <g>
***Since this is how you are at home
do you feel they will be able to make the transition into a world that
may not and actually most likely will not support that way of thinking.***
My son won't be transitioning into the world - he's been in the word for
fifteen years! By the time he's out, living on his own he'll have spent his
whole life on this planet!<g> He knows lots of different people, he's
already worked at several different jobs. (Critter sitter stuff) He's been
in clubs and groups made up of all kinds of folks, adults, kids his age,
kids younger than him. He knows not everyone thinks the way he does.
***Do you feel they will get a shock when others do not treat them the
way they are used to being treated at home?***
If someone treats him badly he has the confidence to deal with them in a
mature and rational manner.
***I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a task
(at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
your feelings on it.***
When the young military people were busted over the treatment of prisoners
at Abu Ghraib they said they were "just doing their job." When Adolf
Eichmann was on trial for crimes against humanity he insisted he was only
following orders. I think it's a terrible mistake to believe we must follow
orders in spite of our own feelings about whatever we've been asked to do.
(If you're interested in this idea there was a bizarre study called the
Milgram experiments (Stanley Milgram) that showed just how far some folks
would be willing to compromise their ethics if they were directed to by an
authority figure) If my son is in a job where he doesn't feel good about
doing the work then I hope he leaves that job PRONTO.
We have choices about what jobs we take and whether we stay at that job and
for how long. I think the majority of the people who are having a hard
time in life are people who feel like they have no choice about what happens
to them or who feel like they *have to* do things in their life because they
have no choice.
Deb Lewis
not asked how you feel about something.. Nor are you asked if you want
to complete a particular task etc.***
I am! My boss asks me if I want certain projects and if I were to get stuck
she'd finish a project for me. I work at a job I like, I work only as much
as I want, I do only the jobs I want and so your statement isn't true of all
jobs! <g>
***Since this is how you are at home
do you feel they will be able to make the transition into a world that
may not and actually most likely will not support that way of thinking.***
My son won't be transitioning into the world - he's been in the word for
fifteen years! By the time he's out, living on his own he'll have spent his
whole life on this planet!<g> He knows lots of different people, he's
already worked at several different jobs. (Critter sitter stuff) He's been
in clubs and groups made up of all kinds of folks, adults, kids his age,
kids younger than him. He knows not everyone thinks the way he does.
***Do you feel they will get a shock when others do not treat them the
way they are used to being treated at home?***
If someone treats him badly he has the confidence to deal with them in a
mature and rational manner.
***I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a task
(at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
your feelings on it.***
When the young military people were busted over the treatment of prisoners
at Abu Ghraib they said they were "just doing their job." When Adolf
Eichmann was on trial for crimes against humanity he insisted he was only
following orders. I think it's a terrible mistake to believe we must follow
orders in spite of our own feelings about whatever we've been asked to do.
(If you're interested in this idea there was a bizarre study called the
Milgram experiments (Stanley Milgram) that showed just how far some folks
would be willing to compromise their ethics if they were directed to by an
authority figure) If my son is in a job where he doesn't feel good about
doing the work then I hope he leaves that job PRONTO.
We have choices about what jobs we take and whether we stay at that job and
for how long. I think the majority of the people who are having a hard
time in life are people who feel like they have no choice about what happens
to them or who feel like they *have to* do things in their life because they
have no choice.
Deb Lewis
Janet
I have had three who have gone from unschooling to college - two have
good jobs now. Not a one has had a big transition problem. They may
have had a surprise or two, but nothing they didn't understand or
have the ability to deal with. We have unschooled for 20 years. I
worried about the first one going off to college at age 16 with no
"formal schooling" LOL. (State pays for it - he wanted to try it
badly, so off he went - just as a commuter student.) He ended up
staying there for four years, graduated and now works as a well paid
computer programmer in NC. The other one has transferred to another
college and is working towards a degree in mechanical engineering.
Their unschooling years really helped them focus on what THEY wanted
to do and what THEIR strengths were. One lived breathed and slept
with computers - and he's very good at what he does. The other loved
things mechanical! And he too is good at what he does. Had they been
in school all day all those years they never would have known where
their interests lie, at least I can't see how they could have. They
were free to really explore at home. And explore they did.
Janet in MN
At 01:55 PM 5/22/2007, you wrote:
good jobs now. Not a one has had a big transition problem. They may
have had a surprise or two, but nothing they didn't understand or
have the ability to deal with. We have unschooled for 20 years. I
worried about the first one going off to college at age 16 with no
"formal schooling" LOL. (State pays for it - he wanted to try it
badly, so off he went - just as a commuter student.) He ended up
staying there for four years, graduated and now works as a well paid
computer programmer in NC. The other one has transferred to another
college and is working towards a degree in mechanical engineering.
Their unschooling years really helped them focus on what THEY wanted
to do and what THEIR strengths were. One lived breathed and slept
with computers - and he's very good at what he does. The other loved
things mechanical! And he too is good at what he does. Had they been
in school all day all those years they never would have known where
their interests lie, at least I can't see how they could have. They
were free to really explore at home. And explore they did.
Janet in MN
At 01:55 PM 5/22/2007, you wrote:
>However I am wondering about the future.
>
>I want to word this without it sounding attacking or rude or anything
>negative as that is not my intent.
>
>With the way you are raising you child(ren), do you feel they will
>handle society well. What I mean is when you go out to work you are
>not asked how you feel about something.. Nor are you asked if you want
>to complete a particular task etc. Since this is how you are at home
>do you feel they will be able to make the transition into a world that
>may not and actually most likely will not support that way of thinking.
>
>Do you feel they will get a shock when others do not treat them the
>way they are used to being treated at home?
>
>I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a task
>(at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
>your feelings on it.
>
>How do you prepare your child to deal with this?
Fetteroll
On May 22, 2007, at 2:55 PM, jnaisi wrote:
between someone asking them to do a favor and an assignment for a job
that they've chosen to take?
Do you think they won't grasp the concept that they've *chosen* to
sign on to do a particular job and are being paid to do what's asked
of them?
On the surface asking a child to do something looks like a boss
asking an employee to do something. But the underlying motivations
are completely different. Children *know* this and it confuses them
when parents try to treat the situations the same and get upset that
kids aren't treating them the same.
extensively ;-) She has friends who are unschooled and homeschooled
and schooled. She has friends who are 10-89, She's also seen the
world on TV :-) And read about it in books!
She isn't living in a bubble. She's been exposed to people who treat
each other differently than she is treated.
drilled into them.
Plus he knows -- perhaps subconsciously -- that there's a huge
difference between a job imposed on him and a job he has willingly
taken that he *wants* to do. He *will* treat being asked to interrupt
what's important to him to do a favor to someone else differently
than a task that's personally meaningful to him that he's *chosen* to
do -- like beating a video game level, getting a jump right on a
skateboard.
I think one of the biggest flubs parents can make is to look at who
their child is at the moment and assume that unless what are
perceived as flaws are trained out of them that they'll be exactly as
they are as adults.
When your son couldn't walk, did you give him walking lessons,
fearing he might never walk? When he couldn't say milk properly, did
you immediately start lessons to insure that he didn't spend the rest
of his life saying "gook"?
Children learn loads better if we trust that they can learn when it's
important to them and that right now they're doing the best they can
with the information, skills and needs they have right now.
Kids don't learn responsibility by having jobs imposed on them and
having someone hover over them to judge how well they do. How well
would you learn if your husband decided you needed to manicure the
lawn with scissors? Would you feel responsible after you'd done it?
Or would you feel resentful? Why? (It's important that why. It's the
foundational difference between choosing to take on a responsibility
and having someone impose a task on us.)
Kids learn to be responsible by being treated with respect. When they
know they're respected -- truly deeply respected for who they are and
not just when they're doing what they parents approve of -- then they
want to maintain that respect, the respect of others and even more
importantly their respect for themselves.
(And, yes, I've seen a great deal of responsibility in my daughter at
15. In fact I think she's way more responsible than I am!)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What I mean is when you go out to work you areDo you honestly think your kids won't be able to tell the difference
> not asked how you feel about something.. Nor are you asked if you want
> to complete a particular task etc.
between someone asking them to do a favor and an assignment for a job
that they've chosen to take?
Do you think they won't grasp the concept that they've *chosen* to
sign on to do a particular job and are being paid to do what's asked
of them?
On the surface asking a child to do something looks like a boss
asking an employee to do something. But the underlying motivations
are completely different. Children *know* this and it confuses them
when parents try to treat the situations the same and get upset that
kids aren't treating them the same.
> Do you feel they will get a shock when others do not treat them theUnlike school kids my daughter has been out in the world
> way they are used to being treated at home?
extensively ;-) She has friends who are unschooled and homeschooled
and schooled. She has friends who are 10-89, She's also seen the
world on TV :-) And read about it in books!
She isn't living in a bubble. She's been exposed to people who treat
each other differently than she is treated.
> I have been raising my son that in society when you are given a taskIt *really* isn't brain surgery. It's not a concept that needs
> (at work or in college etc) you are expected to complete it despite
> your feelings on it.
drilled into them.
Plus he knows -- perhaps subconsciously -- that there's a huge
difference between a job imposed on him and a job he has willingly
taken that he *wants* to do. He *will* treat being asked to interrupt
what's important to him to do a favor to someone else differently
than a task that's personally meaningful to him that he's *chosen* to
do -- like beating a video game level, getting a jump right on a
skateboard.
I think one of the biggest flubs parents can make is to look at who
their child is at the moment and assume that unless what are
perceived as flaws are trained out of them that they'll be exactly as
they are as adults.
When your son couldn't walk, did you give him walking lessons,
fearing he might never walk? When he couldn't say milk properly, did
you immediately start lessons to insure that he didn't spend the rest
of his life saying "gook"?
Children learn loads better if we trust that they can learn when it's
important to them and that right now they're doing the best they can
with the information, skills and needs they have right now.
Kids don't learn responsibility by having jobs imposed on them and
having someone hover over them to judge how well they do. How well
would you learn if your husband decided you needed to manicure the
lawn with scissors? Would you feel responsible after you'd done it?
Or would you feel resentful? Why? (It's important that why. It's the
foundational difference between choosing to take on a responsibility
and having someone impose a task on us.)
Kids learn to be responsible by being treated with respect. When they
know they're respected -- truly deeply respected for who they are and
not just when they're doing what they parents approve of -- then they
want to maintain that respect, the respect of others and even more
importantly their respect for themselves.
(And, yes, I've seen a great deal of responsibility in my daughter at
15. In fact I think she's way more responsible than I am!)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Bentley
I have been telling my children that there will always be things in your
life that you do not want to do nor will you like but will have to be done.
There are things daily that my oldest refuses to do because he doesnt want
to or like to do it. It has been one of our biggest battles.
Mostly it will be his homework assignments or the work they are doing in
school. A lot of time it is his chores.
These are things that still have to be done. Granted when unschooling you
have the option to alter things to make them more fun or acceptable to your
child but not in conventional schooling. Which is where he is currently.
I like a lot of what you say I really do.. I can see all the positives of
it. However I have never dealt with so little actual structure and
routine. It is so foreign to me. It is hard for me to wrap my mind around.
I am sure if I just did it then it would make sense to me.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
life that you do not want to do nor will you like but will have to be done.
There are things daily that my oldest refuses to do because he doesnt want
to or like to do it. It has been one of our biggest battles.
Mostly it will be his homework assignments or the work they are doing in
school. A lot of time it is his chores.
These are things that still have to be done. Granted when unschooling you
have the option to alter things to make them more fun or acceptable to your
child but not in conventional schooling. Which is where he is currently.
I like a lot of what you say I really do.. I can see all the positives of
it. However I have never dealt with so little actual structure and
routine. It is so foreign to me. It is hard for me to wrap my mind around.
I am sure if I just did it then it would make sense to me.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/22/2007 6:55:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
robyn.bentley@... writes:
I have been telling my children that there will always be things in your
life that you do not want to do nor will you like but will have to be done.
There are things daily that my oldest refuses to do because he doesnt want
to or like to do it. It has been one of our biggest battles.
______
What exactly do you think your child needs to do that he doesn't want or
like to do? Would you mind sharing some concrete examples?
I used to think that there were just so many things we had to do. A huge
part of my living a joyful life was the realization that there are really few
things that we "have" to do. It was a huge leap for me to realize that not
doing something that I thought had to be done really didn't have the huge
consequences that I imagined. Now, I know I can choose to do those things
happily.......or not do them at all.
Some things that used to be on my list were things like showering, washing
dishes, laundry, balancing my checkbook, going to the grocery store, getting
dressed......I'm not saying that my kids and I don't do those things but
sometimes we just don't. Nothing bad happens. Really. Sometimes, really cool
things happen.
I found that examining those notions of mine and actually seeing what does
happen has opened up a whole new world for us.
What are some of the things you think need to be done?
Gail
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
robyn.bentley@... writes:
I have been telling my children that there will always be things in your
life that you do not want to do nor will you like but will have to be done.
There are things daily that my oldest refuses to do because he doesnt want
to or like to do it. It has been one of our biggest battles.
______
What exactly do you think your child needs to do that he doesn't want or
like to do? Would you mind sharing some concrete examples?
I used to think that there were just so many things we had to do. A huge
part of my living a joyful life was the realization that there are really few
things that we "have" to do. It was a huge leap for me to realize that not
doing something that I thought had to be done really didn't have the huge
consequences that I imagined. Now, I know I can choose to do those things
happily.......or not do them at all.
Some things that used to be on my list were things like showering, washing
dishes, laundry, balancing my checkbook, going to the grocery store, getting
dressed......I'm not saying that my kids and I don't do those things but
sometimes we just don't. Nothing bad happens. Really. Sometimes, really cool
things happen.
I found that examining those notions of mine and actually seeing what does
happen has opened up a whole new world for us.
What are some of the things you think need to be done?
Gail
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/22/2007 6:54:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, robyn.b
entley@... writes:
Mostly it will be his homework assignments or the work they are doing in
school. A lot of time it is his chores.
These are things that still have to be done. Granted when unschooling you
have the option to alter things to make them more fun or acceptable to your
child but not in conventional schooling. Which is where he is currently.
______
I didn't read this post before I responded and didn't realize your child was
in school. So I guess my question would still be along the same lines.
What chores? And what would happen if they didn't get done?
Gail
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
entley@... writes:
Mostly it will be his homework assignments or the work they are doing in
school. A lot of time it is his chores.
These are things that still have to be done. Granted when unschooling you
have the option to alter things to make them more fun or acceptable to your
child but not in conventional schooling. Which is where he is currently.
______
I didn't read this post before I responded and didn't realize your child was
in school. So I guess my question would still be along the same lines.
What chores? And what would happen if they didn't get done?
Gail
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christy Mahoney
There have been many many threads about "have tos". I'm sure you
can find a lot of stuff if you search under "chores" in the archives
or at other sites.
But it really comes down to the fact that all of these things are
still choices. He can choose to do the chores or not to do them.
That is his choice. And it is your choice to respond to his
choice. You can choose to punish, discuss, ignore, whatever. It is
still your choice.
Adults and kids certainly do choose to do things that they don't
particularly enjoy. They may choose to do something in order to
avoid a punishment or negative result, or perhaps to help someone
they love. I think it's super important to model making choices,
even with chores.
Gotta go,
Christy M.
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Bentley"
<robyn.bentley@...> wrote:
can find a lot of stuff if you search under "chores" in the archives
or at other sites.
But it really comes down to the fact that all of these things are
still choices. He can choose to do the chores or not to do them.
That is his choice. And it is your choice to respond to his
choice. You can choose to punish, discuss, ignore, whatever. It is
still your choice.
Adults and kids certainly do choose to do things that they don't
particularly enjoy. They may choose to do something in order to
avoid a punishment or negative result, or perhaps to help someone
they love. I think it's super important to model making choices,
even with chores.
Gotta go,
Christy M.
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Bentley"
<robyn.bentley@...> wrote:
>in your
> I have been telling my children that there will always be things
> life that you do not want to do nor will you like but will have tobe done.
> There are things daily that my oldest refuses to do because hedoesnt want
> to or like to do it. It has been one of our biggest battles.doing in
>
> Mostly it will be his homework assignments or the work they are
> school. A lot of time it is his chores.unschooling you
>
> These are things that still have to be done. Granted when
> have the option to alter things to make them more fun oracceptable to your
> child but not in conventional schooling. Which is where he iscurrently.
>positives of
> I like a lot of what you say I really do.. I can see all the
> it. However I have never dealt with so little actual structure andmind around.
> routine. It is so foreign to me. It is hard for me to wrap my
>
> I am sure if I just did it then it would make sense to me.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Ren Allen
~~There are things daily that my oldest refuses to do because he
doesnt want to or like to do it. It has been one of our biggest battles.~~
So quit battling him. What if your dh tried to make you do things you
didn't want to do? How would that affect your relationship? How do you
think it's building trust to force him to do things he doesn't want to
do rather than being his partner? If he died next week, would the
battles have been worth the cost to your relationship?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
doesnt want to or like to do it. It has been one of our biggest battles.~~
So quit battling him. What if your dh tried to make you do things you
didn't want to do? How would that affect your relationship? How do you
think it's building trust to force him to do things he doesn't want to
do rather than being his partner? If he died next week, would the
battles have been worth the cost to your relationship?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~
I have been telling my children that there will always be things in your
life that you do not want to do nor will you like but will have to be
done.~~
Why would you want them to believe that? I do nothing in my life that
isn't a choice. Some activities I don't care for, but dislike the
consequences so I choose it anyway. It's still a choice. Nothing HAS
to be done.
I'd rather that my children see all of life as a choice. Empower them,
don't try to instill feelings of futility. Life is a grand
adventure...make it so.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
I have been telling my children that there will always be things in your
life that you do not want to do nor will you like but will have to be
done.~~
Why would you want them to believe that? I do nothing in my life that
isn't a choice. Some activities I don't care for, but dislike the
consequences so I choose it anyway. It's still a choice. Nothing HAS
to be done.
I'd rather that my children see all of life as a choice. Empower them,
don't try to instill feelings of futility. Life is a grand
adventure...make it so.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Su Penn
On May 22, 2007, at 2:55 PM, jnaisi wrote:
give up all autonomy to some kind of overload and have to do whatever
they say without any input? The only job I ever had that was really
like that was when I worked in a Revlon packaging plant, on the
assembly line. And even then, I got to choose whether to take that
job or another one. So did the other people I worked with--I remember
one day, on a line that wasn't working right, with more and more
management coming along and treating us like we were stupid and not
listening when we told them what the problem was, about half the
people left for lunch and just never came back.
Even when I worked fast food, I had input as to whether I worked the
drive-thru or the front counter, whether I preferred to open at 5 in
the morning or stay until 2 a. m. to close, and so on. I've had
crappy jobs and left them. I've had crappy jobs and stayed with them
because what I got from them outweighed the trouble and stress.
In my experience, K-12 schooling is the only place I've ever been
subject to that kind of complete top-down authority, and had no
recourse to either change the situation or remove myself from it.
Su
> With the way you are raising you child(ren), do you feel they willWhy do so many people have this image that when you take a job you
> handle society well. What I mean is when you go out to work you are
> not asked how you feel about something..
give up all autonomy to some kind of overload and have to do whatever
they say without any input? The only job I ever had that was really
like that was when I worked in a Revlon packaging plant, on the
assembly line. And even then, I got to choose whether to take that
job or another one. So did the other people I worked with--I remember
one day, on a line that wasn't working right, with more and more
management coming along and treating us like we were stupid and not
listening when we told them what the problem was, about half the
people left for lunch and just never came back.
Even when I worked fast food, I had input as to whether I worked the
drive-thru or the front counter, whether I preferred to open at 5 in
the morning or stay until 2 a. m. to close, and so on. I've had
crappy jobs and left them. I've had crappy jobs and stayed with them
because what I got from them outweighed the trouble and stress.
In my experience, K-12 schooling is the only place I've ever been
subject to that kind of complete top-down authority, and had no
recourse to either change the situation or remove myself from it.
Su
thehomeopathicway
> When the young military people were busted over the treatment ofprisoners at Abu Ghraib they said they were "just doing their job."
When Adolf Eichmann was on trial for crimes against humanity he
insisted he was only following orders.
Thanks so much for saying this! It was the first thing I thought of
when I read the post questioning the future abilities of unschoolers.
IMO, this 'factory worker - don't question authority' mentality is what
is truly the problem with our society today. Thank goodness for the
independent thinkers who will always question before they act.
Robyn Bentley
The things Nate refuses to do is writing anything. He hates to write. I
mean anything.. I dont necessarily mean stories. It seems the more the has
to do actual writing the more he gets emotionally upset. So he doesnt
complete any of his work unless you sit there and make sure he finishes it.
I have thought about how I would handle this at home. He would learn how to
type.
He has had issues with hand writing since he was first ever in school. He
had a very very negative experience with a teacher and I believe it has left
a permanent mark on him.
He will come home from school and whine about how much he had to write and
how his hand hurts. I have spoken to doctors about it but nothing was ever
found.
He only really has one chore. To take out the trash. I dont enforce really
any other chore for him. I wanted him to have one thing that he is solely
responsible for. It doesnt require alot of attention. It is over quickly.
All other chores I have tried with him he takes 5 hours because he is so
distracted or in another world.
It is becoming quite an issue between my children too. My daughter does her
chores quickly and completely where as Nate doesnt finish anything.. Well
unless he is building something with Legos or making paper airplanes.
I just wanted to say I wasnt implyng that unschooled children wouldnt be
able to transition. I think alot if not most of them would do smoothly but
how did they handle the culture shock. I guess I am more worried about how
my Nate would transition into society (not general everyday society but
adult/work society) where someone isnt there to make sure he is taking his
medication, bathing, eating right, sleeping enough, etc.
I have read that unschooled children tend to be more successful
intrapersonally then conventional schooled children. I for some reason
believed (and I am sorry for my assumption) that unschooled kids mainly
associated with other unschooled kids. Not that they never associated with
others but I meant primarily. I think I got that idea from my aunt-in-law
who homeschools and her girls mainly associate with a specific grouping of
people.
I have my first meeting to see how the school responds to the services Nate
needs. Should they give me a really hard time I will just forgo the
doctor's recommendation and bring him home for schooling. I know he would
be successful at home with so much but I am worried about him developing
socially. I dont live in an area with alot of extra curricular activities.
I would have to travel a bit. We dont have any extra money so I am limited
there. (cost of travel etc). So that is the only thing I am worried about.
Would I be stunting his social development. Granted he isnt getting much at
school other then some teasing.
I am sorry I am just rambling. I am kinda in that mood today. It has been
a long road with Nate. I love him so much and my heart aches to see him
have it so very hard compared to his peers. Even when he is playing with
his cousin you can see the difference in their maturities. Nate always
looks so hurt and confused.
Sorry again for rambling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mean anything.. I dont necessarily mean stories. It seems the more the has
to do actual writing the more he gets emotionally upset. So he doesnt
complete any of his work unless you sit there and make sure he finishes it.
I have thought about how I would handle this at home. He would learn how to
type.
He has had issues with hand writing since he was first ever in school. He
had a very very negative experience with a teacher and I believe it has left
a permanent mark on him.
He will come home from school and whine about how much he had to write and
how his hand hurts. I have spoken to doctors about it but nothing was ever
found.
He only really has one chore. To take out the trash. I dont enforce really
any other chore for him. I wanted him to have one thing that he is solely
responsible for. It doesnt require alot of attention. It is over quickly.
All other chores I have tried with him he takes 5 hours because he is so
distracted or in another world.
It is becoming quite an issue between my children too. My daughter does her
chores quickly and completely where as Nate doesnt finish anything.. Well
unless he is building something with Legos or making paper airplanes.
I just wanted to say I wasnt implyng that unschooled children wouldnt be
able to transition. I think alot if not most of them would do smoothly but
how did they handle the culture shock. I guess I am more worried about how
my Nate would transition into society (not general everyday society but
adult/work society) where someone isnt there to make sure he is taking his
medication, bathing, eating right, sleeping enough, etc.
I have read that unschooled children tend to be more successful
intrapersonally then conventional schooled children. I for some reason
believed (and I am sorry for my assumption) that unschooled kids mainly
associated with other unschooled kids. Not that they never associated with
others but I meant primarily. I think I got that idea from my aunt-in-law
who homeschools and her girls mainly associate with a specific grouping of
people.
I have my first meeting to see how the school responds to the services Nate
needs. Should they give me a really hard time I will just forgo the
doctor's recommendation and bring him home for schooling. I know he would
be successful at home with so much but I am worried about him developing
socially. I dont live in an area with alot of extra curricular activities.
I would have to travel a bit. We dont have any extra money so I am limited
there. (cost of travel etc). So that is the only thing I am worried about.
Would I be stunting his social development. Granted he isnt getting much at
school other then some teasing.
I am sorry I am just rambling. I am kinda in that mood today. It has been
a long road with Nate. I love him so much and my heart aches to see him
have it so very hard compared to his peers. Even when he is playing with
his cousin you can see the difference in their maturities. Nate always
looks so hurt and confused.
Sorry again for rambling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Bentley
So I shouldn't battle him on doing everyday things like taking his
medication. Yes there is a choice there but his choice would yield him one
of two things. Take his meds and not be depressed or manic. Not get into
such a dark place that he thinks of death all the time. or not take his
meds and cycle and have overwhelming irrational fears constantly coming at
him. Not be able to sleep because his mind is racing so fast it makes him
scream for it to stop. These are things that despite whether you really
want to or not you have to do.. Because the alternative is so horrible.
I had to go home for 3 months without my boy because he wanted to die. It
was the worst 3 months of my entire existence. I didn't want to go home
without him but I did it because it was what HAD to be done for him to get
better. Yes it was a choice.. everything is a choice..
So I think about what if my son was dead a lot.. because he has wanted to be
dead.
If I allowed my son to do what he wanted to do he would never get out of bed
because of his fears. He needs to face his fears and learn he is stronger
then they are. I should give him the choice to never leave the house for
fears of things outdoors?
My son has instant gratification needs and if he doesn't get it right or
becomes the best at it when he first does it he quits. He has a major
emotional breakdown over it. I should let him just give up on everything
that is a challenge because he isn't the best at it?
I am very encouraging but insistent. I want him to complete the things he
starts. I want him to keep trying and learn through repetition you can
become just as good and sometimes better then others.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
medication. Yes there is a choice there but his choice would yield him one
of two things. Take his meds and not be depressed or manic. Not get into
such a dark place that he thinks of death all the time. or not take his
meds and cycle and have overwhelming irrational fears constantly coming at
him. Not be able to sleep because his mind is racing so fast it makes him
scream for it to stop. These are things that despite whether you really
want to or not you have to do.. Because the alternative is so horrible.
I had to go home for 3 months without my boy because he wanted to die. It
was the worst 3 months of my entire existence. I didn't want to go home
without him but I did it because it was what HAD to be done for him to get
better. Yes it was a choice.. everything is a choice..
So I think about what if my son was dead a lot.. because he has wanted to be
dead.
If I allowed my son to do what he wanted to do he would never get out of bed
because of his fears. He needs to face his fears and learn he is stronger
then they are. I should give him the choice to never leave the house for
fears of things outdoors?
My son has instant gratification needs and if he doesn't get it right or
becomes the best at it when he first does it he quits. He has a major
emotional breakdown over it. I should let him just give up on everything
that is a challenge because he isn't the best at it?
I am very encouraging but insistent. I want him to complete the things he
starts. I want him to keep trying and learn through repetition you can
become just as good and sometimes better then others.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~It seems the more the has
to do actual writing the more he gets emotionally upset. So he doesnt
complete any of his work unless you sit there and make sure he
finishes it.~~
Why would you aid and assist the damage the schools are inflicting on
this child???? WHY? If he doesn't do the work, then he is choosing
not to do the work? Why would it matter if he chooses to ignore work
that isn't beneficial for him nor is it teaching him anything but a
distaste for learning. ugh.
Let him choose his school experiences (why is he in school anyway???),
let him own that experience and choose what he gets from it. If he
fails, that is NOT a reflection of who he is or how intelligent he is.
Counter the school damage and focus on what he LOVES, not what he
CAN'T do!!!
It sounds like this child has been seen as a failure on many levels.
He needs to shine in someone's eyes. He needs to have his strengths
focused on, NOT his weaknesses. He needs to know he is perfect and
beautiful right NOW.
Take out the trash for him and say "I know how you hate taking out the
trash sweetheart, so I did it for you today" and then do it again
tomorrow!! Does the trash matter more than your son's spirit...because
he's being crushed over really meaningless crap.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
to do actual writing the more he gets emotionally upset. So he doesnt
complete any of his work unless you sit there and make sure he
finishes it.~~
Why would you aid and assist the damage the schools are inflicting on
this child???? WHY? If he doesn't do the work, then he is choosing
not to do the work? Why would it matter if he chooses to ignore work
that isn't beneficial for him nor is it teaching him anything but a
distaste for learning. ugh.
Let him choose his school experiences (why is he in school anyway???),
let him own that experience and choose what he gets from it. If he
fails, that is NOT a reflection of who he is or how intelligent he is.
Counter the school damage and focus on what he LOVES, not what he
CAN'T do!!!
It sounds like this child has been seen as a failure on many levels.
He needs to shine in someone's eyes. He needs to have his strengths
focused on, NOT his weaknesses. He needs to know he is perfect and
beautiful right NOW.
Take out the trash for him and say "I know how you hate taking out the
trash sweetheart, so I did it for you today" and then do it again
tomorrow!! Does the trash matter more than your son's spirit...because
he's being crushed over really meaningless crap.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~Nate always
looks so hurt and confused.~~
So put him in situations and around people that help him look and feel
strong and perfect.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
looks so hurt and confused.~~
So put him in situations and around people that help him look and feel
strong and perfect.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~Yes there is a choice there but his choice would yield him one
of two things. Take his meds and not be depressed or manic. ~
Maybe he'd be less depressed if he was being celebrated and not forced
into a box every day of his life. Even if he needs the meds, why make
anything else a battle. That might be the only important one....the
rest of what you listed is ridiculous to battle over.
Please explain why this child is in school??? I would think that is
depressing him far more than anything. Schools are not equipped to
nourish the spirit of a child. Why is he being subjected to that damage??
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
of two things. Take his meds and not be depressed or manic. ~
Maybe he'd be less depressed if he was being celebrated and not forced
into a box every day of his life. Even if he needs the meds, why make
anything else a battle. That might be the only important one....the
rest of what you listed is ridiculous to battle over.
Please explain why this child is in school??? I would think that is
depressing him far more than anything. Schools are not equipped to
nourish the spirit of a child. Why is he being subjected to that damage??
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
kristenhendricks55
I had to go home for 3 months without my boy because he wanted to
die. It
was the worst 3 months of my entire existence. I didn't want to go
home
without him but I did it because it was what HAD to be done for him
to get
better. Yes it was a choice.. everything is a choice..
********
What if he died while he was there? Would you have felt okay about
leaving him there alone without you or your support? WHY did you have
to leave? Did someone tell you that you had to leave? Or was it your
choice? I would have to guess that if I were depressed and the person
that should be there to help went home without me. I would probably
want to give up too. Just like you said... everything is a choice.
Wanting to die is a choice, too. What if you could change his mind? I
know you said you have him on antidepressants... but also.. what
about just celebrating the fact that hes HERE with you and he's not
DEAD. What about instead of talking about how you think about him
being dead all the time... why dont you think about him being alive
and how great it is that hes here today and you still have him. Why
not just go do something crazy/outrageous/exciting... something HE
would really enjoy just because.. to show him that you are glad he's
here and you wouldnt have had that fun without him.
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Bentley"
<robyn.bentley@...> wrote:
die. It
was the worst 3 months of my entire existence. I didn't want to go
home
without him but I did it because it was what HAD to be done for him
to get
better. Yes it was a choice.. everything is a choice..
********
What if he died while he was there? Would you have felt okay about
leaving him there alone without you or your support? WHY did you have
to leave? Did someone tell you that you had to leave? Or was it your
choice? I would have to guess that if I were depressed and the person
that should be there to help went home without me. I would probably
want to give up too. Just like you said... everything is a choice.
Wanting to die is a choice, too. What if you could change his mind? I
know you said you have him on antidepressants... but also.. what
about just celebrating the fact that hes HERE with you and he's not
DEAD. What about instead of talking about how you think about him
being dead all the time... why dont you think about him being alive
and how great it is that hes here today and you still have him. Why
not just go do something crazy/outrageous/exciting... something HE
would really enjoy just because.. to show him that you are glad he's
here and you wouldnt have had that fun without him.
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Bentley"
<robyn.bentley@...> wrote:
>him one
> So I shouldn't battle him on doing everyday things like taking his
> medication. Yes there is a choice there but his choice would yield
> of two things. Take his meds and not be depressed or manic. Notget into
> such a dark place that he thinks of death all the time. or nottake his
> meds and cycle and have overwhelming irrational fears constantlycoming at
> him. Not be able to sleep because his mind is racing so fast itmakes him
> scream for it to stop. These are things that despite whether youreally
> want to or not you have to do.. Because the alternative is sohorrible.
>die. It
> I had to go home for 3 months without my boy because he wanted to
> was the worst 3 months of my entire existence. I didn't want to gohome
> without him but I did it because it was what HAD to be done for himto get
> better. Yes it was a choice.. everything is a choice..wanted to be
>
> So I think about what if my son was dead a lot.. because he has
> dead.out of bed
>
> If I allowed my son to do what he wanted to do he would never get
> because of his fears. He needs to face his fears and learn he isstronger
> then they are. I should give him the choice to never leave thehouse for
> fears of things outdoors?right or
>
> My son has instant gratification needs and if he doesn't get it
> becomes the best at it when he first does it he quits. He has amajor
> emotional breakdown over it. I should let him just give up oneverything
> that is a challenge because he isn't the best at it?things he
>
> I am very encouraging but insistent. I want him to complete the
> starts. I want him to keep trying and learn through repetition youcan
> become just as good and sometimes better then others.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sylvia Toyama
The things Nate refuses to do is writing anything. He hates to write. I
mean anything.. I dont necessarily mean stories. It seems the more the has
to do actual writing the more he gets emotionally upset. So he doesnt
complete any of his work unless you sit there and make sure he finishes it.
****
My oldest son hated to write in school -- and his handwriting was way below the school's expectations. I let it go. How many men do we know who really have nice handwriting anyway? The few I know tell horrible stories of they 'learned' to write -- most involve nuns and rulers. <g>
Now, at 22, my firstborn has the neatest, smallest print writing -- it's like looking at a book. Somewhere around 15, he started writing down song lyrics he wanted to remember, and to make it all fit on the page, he had to come up with tiny writing.
Andy, who's almost 11, just began writing all kinds of things -- spontaneously -- after months of saying he 'couldn't write' and asking us to write things for him. Now, he's making lists of pokemon characters, schedules for his juggling practice (his idea and schedule, not ours) and more. Because, now he was ready. He might keep up with it, or he might leave it by the wayside for the next pursuit, but he knows 'how' and will do it when he needs it.
My point is, writing will come -- when your son is ready and needs it.
****
I have thought about how I would handle this at home. He would learn how to
type.
Or maybe not -- typing, too, will come when he's ready and when it meets his needs. It need not come on anyone else's agenda.
*******
I just wanted to say I wasnt implyng that unschooled children wouldnt be
able to transition. I think alot if not most of them would do smoothly but
how did they handle the culture shock. I guess I am more worried about how
my Nate would transition into society (not general everyday society but
adult/work society) where someone isnt there to make sure he is taking his
medication, bathing, eating right, sleeping enough, etc.
He's medicated? For behavioral/ADD issues? Those medications can make a huge impact -- and not a good one, IMO -- on kids. From the school problems you've shared, and your concerns about his 'distractibility' I'm beginning to see a little boy with a lot of impositions on his life and spirit. All those impositions lead to frustration, anger and resentment on the part of any person, especially a small child who has to feel powerless against the system that's telling there's something 'wrong' with him. Poor little guy!
*****
I have my first meeting to see how the school responds to the services Nate needs. Should they give me a really hard time I will just forgo the doctor's recommendation and bring him home for schooling. I know he would be successful at home with so much but I am worried about him developing socially. I dont live in an area with alot of extra curricular activities.
I would have to travel a bit. We dont have any extra money so I am limited there. (cost of travel etc). So that is the only thing I am worried about. Would I be stunting his social development. Granted he isnt getting much at school other then some teasing.
****
I've been down the testing road -- with my oldest son when he was 8. It was awful, and they didn't even find anything to label Will with. As to whether they give you a 'really hard time' -- my concern would be what kind of time are they giving Nate? And how are you adding to his burden by being their agent for coercion of your son?
It sounds to me like you know he'd do better at home. Go with your instincts -- bring him home, and let him blossom. I'd also re-visit the meds situation, too. I know that if we had Andy in school, they'd be pushing meds -- heck, he'd need meds just to be in school! It wouldnt' be the right thing for Andy's soul. He is just perfectly wonderful, exactly as he is right now. School isn't a place that could embrace or appreciate Andy for who he is, and the constant stuffing of his light would eat at his soul, in a thousand ways.
*****
I am sorry I am just rambling. I am kinda in that mood today. It has been a long road with Nate. I love him so much and my heart aches to see him have it so very hard compared to his peers. Even when he is playing with his cousin you can see the difference in their maturities. Nate always looks so hurt and confused.
****
Make it your goal to relieve his hurt and confusion. Find ways to celebrate his shine, his unique gifts to and from the universe.
Have you been over to the Shine with unschooling list? Not because you've described Nate as 'special' (there's a confusion that Shine is about specially-diagnosed kids) but because over at Shine http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shinewithunschooling. you'll find lots of wonderful stories of how all kids shine with unschooling. It's a wonderful place to find and celebrate Nate's -- and your own -- shine.
Sylvia
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mean anything.. I dont necessarily mean stories. It seems the more the has
to do actual writing the more he gets emotionally upset. So he doesnt
complete any of his work unless you sit there and make sure he finishes it.
****
My oldest son hated to write in school -- and his handwriting was way below the school's expectations. I let it go. How many men do we know who really have nice handwriting anyway? The few I know tell horrible stories of they 'learned' to write -- most involve nuns and rulers. <g>
Now, at 22, my firstborn has the neatest, smallest print writing -- it's like looking at a book. Somewhere around 15, he started writing down song lyrics he wanted to remember, and to make it all fit on the page, he had to come up with tiny writing.
Andy, who's almost 11, just began writing all kinds of things -- spontaneously -- after months of saying he 'couldn't write' and asking us to write things for him. Now, he's making lists of pokemon characters, schedules for his juggling practice (his idea and schedule, not ours) and more. Because, now he was ready. He might keep up with it, or he might leave it by the wayside for the next pursuit, but he knows 'how' and will do it when he needs it.
My point is, writing will come -- when your son is ready and needs it.
****
I have thought about how I would handle this at home. He would learn how to
type.
Or maybe not -- typing, too, will come when he's ready and when it meets his needs. It need not come on anyone else's agenda.
*******
I just wanted to say I wasnt implyng that unschooled children wouldnt be
able to transition. I think alot if not most of them would do smoothly but
how did they handle the culture shock. I guess I am more worried about how
my Nate would transition into society (not general everyday society but
adult/work society) where someone isnt there to make sure he is taking his
medication, bathing, eating right, sleeping enough, etc.
He's medicated? For behavioral/ADD issues? Those medications can make a huge impact -- and not a good one, IMO -- on kids. From the school problems you've shared, and your concerns about his 'distractibility' I'm beginning to see a little boy with a lot of impositions on his life and spirit. All those impositions lead to frustration, anger and resentment on the part of any person, especially a small child who has to feel powerless against the system that's telling there's something 'wrong' with him. Poor little guy!
*****
I have my first meeting to see how the school responds to the services Nate needs. Should they give me a really hard time I will just forgo the doctor's recommendation and bring him home for schooling. I know he would be successful at home with so much but I am worried about him developing socially. I dont live in an area with alot of extra curricular activities.
I would have to travel a bit. We dont have any extra money so I am limited there. (cost of travel etc). So that is the only thing I am worried about. Would I be stunting his social development. Granted he isnt getting much at school other then some teasing.
****
I've been down the testing road -- with my oldest son when he was 8. It was awful, and they didn't even find anything to label Will with. As to whether they give you a 'really hard time' -- my concern would be what kind of time are they giving Nate? And how are you adding to his burden by being their agent for coercion of your son?
It sounds to me like you know he'd do better at home. Go with your instincts -- bring him home, and let him blossom. I'd also re-visit the meds situation, too. I know that if we had Andy in school, they'd be pushing meds -- heck, he'd need meds just to be in school! It wouldnt' be the right thing for Andy's soul. He is just perfectly wonderful, exactly as he is right now. School isn't a place that could embrace or appreciate Andy for who he is, and the constant stuffing of his light would eat at his soul, in a thousand ways.
*****
I am sorry I am just rambling. I am kinda in that mood today. It has been a long road with Nate. I love him so much and my heart aches to see him have it so very hard compared to his peers. Even when he is playing with his cousin you can see the difference in their maturities. Nate always looks so hurt and confused.
****
Make it your goal to relieve his hurt and confusion. Find ways to celebrate his shine, his unique gifts to and from the universe.
Have you been over to the Shine with unschooling list? Not because you've described Nate as 'special' (there's a confusion that Shine is about specially-diagnosed kids) but because over at Shine http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shinewithunschooling. you'll find lots of wonderful stories of how all kids shine with unschooling. It's a wonderful place to find and celebrate Nate's -- and your own -- shine.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Manisha Kher
--- Robyn Bentley <robyn.bentley@...> wrote:
would focus on getting the meds in him and drop all
other battles. Why is taking his meds such a battle?
Do they taste awful? If so, can you somehow make them
taste better? Are you bring his meds to him or asking
him to go take them?
I would also bring him home from school and let him
spend time doing what he likes. It sounds like between
going to school, then doing homework and battling over
taking out trash, he's not getting much playtime.
Manisha
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> So I shouldn't battle him on doing everyday thingsIf I had a kid with a medical problem like this, I
> like taking his
> medication. Yes there is a choice there but his
> choice would yield him one
> of two things. Take his meds and not be depressed
> or manic.
would focus on getting the meds in him and drop all
other battles. Why is taking his meds such a battle?
Do they taste awful? If so, can you somehow make them
taste better? Are you bring his meds to him or asking
him to go take them?
I would also bring him home from school and let him
spend time doing what he likes. It sounds like between
going to school, then doing homework and battling over
taking out trash, he's not getting much playtime.
Manisha
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Kelli Traaseth
First off I'd say "Get him out of school!".
Then,
***The things Nate refuses to do is writing anything. He hates to write. I
mean anything.. I dont necessarily mean stories. It seems the more the has
to do actual writing the more he gets emotionally upset. ***
Then don't make him write anything. Help him to do things without the writing. Really. If he wants to get something accomplished he will do what it takes. But if he's had that slammed on him all this time in school it might take a long time for him to want to write again.
My son (14) also hates to write. He rarely writes. Sometimes he worries about it, but we talk about and he knows we'll help him figure out something when the need arises. I tell him I know he'll be just fine either way, writing or not writing. I think for him he worries about doing it so perfectly. From his life pre-unschooling, I truly believe he's scared to write and then on top of that its not something he likes to do. (I hate writing too :) Yet, I'm a very proficient typer. :D We let him know that there are lots of people out there who scribble their signature, there are lots of people who rarely write and they are happy and getting through life just fine.
Try and help him to see that he's OK and wonderful in being just who he is. Even if he doesn't want to write right now, that's OK.
***He only really has one chore. To take out the trash. I dont enforce really
any other chore for him. I wanted him to have one thing that he is solely
responsible for. It doesnt require alot of attention. It is over quickly.
All other chores I have tried with him he takes 5 hours because he is so
distracted or in another world.***
I'd get rid of chores too. I hope you read at Joyce's site. Its so amazing what a shift in perspective you can get from looking at things from a point of joy instead of a world of "have-tos".
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/ On the right hand side there's a section about chores. Please read that and lots of her other stuff too. It's brilliant! :)
Really, I hope that you can get him out of school now and then spend some time with him, talk and listen and just let him be him.
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Then,
***The things Nate refuses to do is writing anything. He hates to write. I
mean anything.. I dont necessarily mean stories. It seems the more the has
to do actual writing the more he gets emotionally upset. ***
Then don't make him write anything. Help him to do things without the writing. Really. If he wants to get something accomplished he will do what it takes. But if he's had that slammed on him all this time in school it might take a long time for him to want to write again.
My son (14) also hates to write. He rarely writes. Sometimes he worries about it, but we talk about and he knows we'll help him figure out something when the need arises. I tell him I know he'll be just fine either way, writing or not writing. I think for him he worries about doing it so perfectly. From his life pre-unschooling, I truly believe he's scared to write and then on top of that its not something he likes to do. (I hate writing too :) Yet, I'm a very proficient typer. :D We let him know that there are lots of people out there who scribble their signature, there are lots of people who rarely write and they are happy and getting through life just fine.
Try and help him to see that he's OK and wonderful in being just who he is. Even if he doesn't want to write right now, that's OK.
***He only really has one chore. To take out the trash. I dont enforce really
any other chore for him. I wanted him to have one thing that he is solely
responsible for. It doesnt require alot of attention. It is over quickly.
All other chores I have tried with him he takes 5 hours because he is so
distracted or in another world.***
I'd get rid of chores too. I hope you read at Joyce's site. Its so amazing what a shift in perspective you can get from looking at things from a point of joy instead of a world of "have-tos".
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/ On the right hand side there's a section about chores. Please read that and lots of her other stuff too. It's brilliant! :)
Really, I hope that you can get him out of school now and then spend some time with him, talk and listen and just let him be him.
Kelli~
http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin
---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnaisi
To answer your question.. NO I didnt have a choice in taking him
home.. Well I suppose I did.. I could have tried and been arrested.
When a child is found to have suicidal thoughts or attempts it is
considered so emergent that the rights of the parents to take that
child home is taken away. I was told if I tried to remove him I would
have been arrested and my child put in protective custody. They
believed that it was safest for the child to be under constant
psychiatric care and supervision until the child shows no desires to
kill them self.
It broke my heart to leave him there but I knew he was getting the
attention from a professional he needed. We learned he was bipolar
and needed medication to control his moods. he is not on
antidepressants.. He is on medication to control his mood swings.
Why is my son in school?
Well to be honest up until recently I have never heard of unschooling
and only heard of homeschooling from one other family.
I have only known conventional schooling. I am still trying to
understand everything that is involved with unschooling and
homeschooling. It may seem so simple to you but not to someone who
has never heard of it before. I am trying to get as much information
as I can. I do want to do what is best for my children and I am not
going to just blindly make decisions.
For the most part I raise my kids with their feelings in mind but
there are certain things I have always believed the parent knew best.
It was how I was raised. To choose to go against that is to question
how I was raised and who I am as a person. I am doing this but it
isnt something I take lightly.
Ren,
I think your wording is a bit harsh for someone who is trying to
understand this whole world and make a decision to enter it. I dont
know if that is your intention but that is how it feels.
How about trying to understand what it was like before making a harsh
statement. What parent wants their child to suffer at any time. You
dont think you are making your child suffer. You believe and trust
that you are doing what is best for your child to keep them safe.
I dont know if this is the community for me if you are going to be so
rude and harsh about what a parent felt was best for their child. I
am always trying to do what is best for my child. Sometimes it takes
time to learn what is best. That is why I am considering bringing him
home.. But that is a big life altering decision that I have to think
about how he would handle it and is it really what is best for him..
Do I believe it is best for him? Yes about 99% sure. there are a
couple things that I am worried about.. That is why I came here. But
I feel like I am looked down upon because I made choices you feel were
wrong.
I am trying to understand this way of thinking. I wanted guidance and
understanding and support in making a transition.. Not judgement of my
fears and concerns.
I feel for the most part I have gotten that but from some you are so
harsh in your words.
home.. Well I suppose I did.. I could have tried and been arrested.
When a child is found to have suicidal thoughts or attempts it is
considered so emergent that the rights of the parents to take that
child home is taken away. I was told if I tried to remove him I would
have been arrested and my child put in protective custody. They
believed that it was safest for the child to be under constant
psychiatric care and supervision until the child shows no desires to
kill them self.
It broke my heart to leave him there but I knew he was getting the
attention from a professional he needed. We learned he was bipolar
and needed medication to control his moods. he is not on
antidepressants.. He is on medication to control his mood swings.
Why is my son in school?
Well to be honest up until recently I have never heard of unschooling
and only heard of homeschooling from one other family.
I have only known conventional schooling. I am still trying to
understand everything that is involved with unschooling and
homeschooling. It may seem so simple to you but not to someone who
has never heard of it before. I am trying to get as much information
as I can. I do want to do what is best for my children and I am not
going to just blindly make decisions.
For the most part I raise my kids with their feelings in mind but
there are certain things I have always believed the parent knew best.
It was how I was raised. To choose to go against that is to question
how I was raised and who I am as a person. I am doing this but it
isnt something I take lightly.
Ren,
I think your wording is a bit harsh for someone who is trying to
understand this whole world and make a decision to enter it. I dont
know if that is your intention but that is how it feels.
How about trying to understand what it was like before making a harsh
statement. What parent wants their child to suffer at any time. You
dont think you are making your child suffer. You believe and trust
that you are doing what is best for your child to keep them safe.
I dont know if this is the community for me if you are going to be so
rude and harsh about what a parent felt was best for their child. I
am always trying to do what is best for my child. Sometimes it takes
time to learn what is best. That is why I am considering bringing him
home.. But that is a big life altering decision that I have to think
about how he would handle it and is it really what is best for him..
Do I believe it is best for him? Yes about 99% sure. there are a
couple things that I am worried about.. That is why I came here. But
I feel like I am looked down upon because I made choices you feel were
wrong.
I am trying to understand this way of thinking. I wanted guidance and
understanding and support in making a transition.. Not judgement of my
fears and concerns.
I feel for the most part I have gotten that but from some you are so
harsh in your words.
Chris
Robin,
These are all natural concerns for those who are first getting
interested in unschooling. One thing that always caught my attention
was when somebody pointed out to me how artificial the 'socializing'
at school was.
For some reason we think that having our children associate with lots
of children of the same age is 'socializing.' However, that is a far
cry from the reality each and every one of us live every day. A
family (especially extended families) tends to be a lot more
indicative of the way we socialize as adults than school could ever be.
What you write here seems to indicate that you understand this
intuitively, but maybe it just hasn't fully sunk in yet (or you don't
believe it because you haven't experienced it):
of money. For starters, simply spending some time in public places or
going to the park are not only great opportunities to socialize with
people of all ages, but also great unschooling opportunities.
Your child will socialize whether you actively try or not. It might
be when the two of you go to the grocery store or run errands, it
might be when talking with a neighbor or visiting a friend, it could
simply be talking on the phone with extended family (if they're not
local).
There's tons of opportunities to 'socialize' with people of all ages
if you remove yourself from the assumption/expectation that a school
is the best place for children to socialize.
Unschooling is very much about thinking outside the box, so use this
opportunity to see if you can find solutions that will help you feel
enabled to curb your fears and meet your child's needs more
effectively than school does.
-Chris
These are all natural concerns for those who are first getting
interested in unschooling. One thing that always caught my attention
was when somebody pointed out to me how artificial the 'socializing'
at school was.
For some reason we think that having our children associate with lots
of children of the same age is 'socializing.' However, that is a far
cry from the reality each and every one of us live every day. A
family (especially extended families) tends to be a lot more
indicative of the way we socialize as adults than school could ever be.
What you write here seems to indicate that you understand this
intuitively, but maybe it just hasn't fully sunk in yet (or you don't
believe it because you haven't experienced it):
> I have read that unschooled children tend to be more successfulIn regards to extra curriculars, etc, these don't have to cost a lot
> intrapersonally then conventional schooled children.
of money. For starters, simply spending some time in public places or
going to the park are not only great opportunities to socialize with
people of all ages, but also great unschooling opportunities.
Your child will socialize whether you actively try or not. It might
be when the two of you go to the grocery store or run errands, it
might be when talking with a neighbor or visiting a friend, it could
simply be talking on the phone with extended family (if they're not
local).
There's tons of opportunities to 'socialize' with people of all ages
if you remove yourself from the assumption/expectation that a school
is the best place for children to socialize.
Unschooling is very much about thinking outside the box, so use this
opportunity to see if you can find solutions that will help you feel
enabled to curb your fears and meet your child's needs more
effectively than school does.
-Chris
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Bentley"
<robyn.bentley@...> wrote:
You could do it for him. Seriously. There was a three week period
when my stepson moved in where his mom wouldn't let us pull him out
of school. So I did his homework for him. His grades didn't get any
worse in that time period - he actually got higher scores on the
tests he took during that time, and I'm convinced the reduction of
stress was a big part of that.
playing Runescape - he's fast and accurate. He loves meeting new
people online and he Loves! virtual commerce. He can bid on dragon-
scale armor in english and german, now.
Wow, what a great example of the difference between chosen work and
imposed work! He *has* the ability and attention to finish projects -
the trouble is you are not asigning value to his projects.
This statement of yours is also a good look at why you can't make
assumptions about how unschooling will look in your home based on
how a kid responds to schooling and imposed chores. Ray fought and
fought and fought against both - he "looked" alot like your
descriptions of Nate. Now, after six months of deschooling, he's
practically exploding with new projects and ideas. He's drawing and
painting and manipulating digital images. He's writing programs and
exploring other languages and cultures. He's waterskiing and
learning to use a fire-staff. The other day he spent two hours in
the woodshop making a staff for a guest bc she left hers home. He
learned to use a new powertool in the process. He's cooking and
cleaning without ever being *made* to do so - although he has asked
us to remind him to do the dishes. He *wants* to help.
but they all live an hour or more away from us. Ray knows no
unschoolers his age irl - although he's met some online. They both
spend more time with adults than kids in general. They both have
really great social skills for dealing with adults - including the
ability to gently deflect adults who are condescending and
belittling to them.
Mo's better at asking for help with social situations she's not
comfortable exploring on her own, but that may be as much a matter
of personality. Ray's an extrovert, so he tends to dive in and
figure things out in the middle, as it were. That got him into
trouble when he was expected to "be respectful" to adults in
particular, but also in a lot of kid situations where he was
expected to behave in certain ways. Ironically, now that he's not
struggling against those expectations he's far more tactful and
gracious, even with people he doesn't like or disagrees with. I've
seen him "work as a team" with people he barely knows to get a job
done more efficiently, whereas half a year ago he would have done
his passive-agressive best to make a mess of things to "get out of"
having to help.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
<robyn.bentley@...> wrote:
>write. I
> The things Nate refuses to do is writing anything. He hates to
> mean anything.. I dont necessarily mean stories. It seems themore the has
> to do actual writing the more he gets emotionally upset. So hedoesnt
> complete any of his work unless you sit there and make sure hefinishes it.
You could do it for him. Seriously. There was a three week period
when my stepson moved in where his mom wouldn't let us pull him out
of school. So I did his homework for him. His grades didn't get any
worse in that time period - he actually got higher scores on the
tests he took during that time, and I'm convinced the reduction of
stress was a big part of that.
> I have thought about how I would handle this at home. He wouldlearn how to
> type.If he chooses to, sure he will. My stepson is a great typist from
playing Runescape - he's fast and accurate. He loves meeting new
people online and he Loves! virtual commerce. He can bid on dragon-
scale armor in english and german, now.
> Nate doesnt finish anything.. Wellairplanes.
> unless he is building something with Legos or making paper
Wow, what a great example of the difference between chosen work and
imposed work! He *has* the ability and attention to finish projects -
the trouble is you are not asigning value to his projects.
This statement of yours is also a good look at why you can't make
assumptions about how unschooling will look in your home based on
how a kid responds to schooling and imposed chores. Ray fought and
fought and fought against both - he "looked" alot like your
descriptions of Nate. Now, after six months of deschooling, he's
practically exploding with new projects and ideas. He's drawing and
painting and manipulating digital images. He's writing programs and
exploring other languages and cultures. He's waterskiing and
learning to use a fire-staff. The other day he spent two hours in
the woodshop making a staff for a guest bc she left hers home. He
learned to use a new powertool in the process. He's cooking and
cleaning without ever being *made* to do so - although he has asked
us to remind him to do the dishes. He *wants* to help.
> I have read that unschooled children tend to be more successfulreason
> intrapersonally then conventional schooled children. I for some
> believed (and I am sorry for my assumption) that unschooled kidsmainly
> associated with other unschooled kids.My kids don't *know* very many unschooled kids. Mo knows a handful,
but they all live an hour or more away from us. Ray knows no
unschoolers his age irl - although he's met some online. They both
spend more time with adults than kids in general. They both have
really great social skills for dealing with adults - including the
ability to gently deflect adults who are condescending and
belittling to them.
Mo's better at asking for help with social situations she's not
comfortable exploring on her own, but that may be as much a matter
of personality. Ray's an extrovert, so he tends to dive in and
figure things out in the middle, as it were. That got him into
trouble when he was expected to "be respectful" to adults in
particular, but also in a lot of kid situations where he was
expected to behave in certain ways. Ironically, now that he's not
struggling against those expectations he's far more tactful and
gracious, even with people he doesn't like or disagrees with. I've
seen him "work as a team" with people he barely knows to get a job
done more efficiently, whereas half a year ago he would have done
his passive-agressive best to make a mess of things to "get out of"
having to help.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
Ren Allen
~~Ren,
I think your wording is a bit harsh for someone who is trying to
understand this whole world and make a decision to enter it. I dont
know if that is your intention but that is how it feels.~~
Right now I'm more concerned about the harshness your child is
experiencing than rendering advice that is geared to make you feel
better about your choices. That IS harsh. I understand.
But your child is in a world of hurt and YOU can stop it. I could pat
you on the back and tell you everything is ok, but it's not. I totally
understand that this is a lot to take in, but you've only got a few
years left before this child is a legal adult, only a few short years
to try and mend relationships and damaged self-esteem.
I hope my words can reach through some of the crud you (and most of
us) have learned that are lies and do what is best for your child. He
is hurting badly. YOu have the power to change that. Do it.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
I think your wording is a bit harsh for someone who is trying to
understand this whole world and make a decision to enter it. I dont
know if that is your intention but that is how it feels.~~
Right now I'm more concerned about the harshness your child is
experiencing than rendering advice that is geared to make you feel
better about your choices. That IS harsh. I understand.
But your child is in a world of hurt and YOU can stop it. I could pat
you on the back and tell you everything is ok, but it's not. I totally
understand that this is a lot to take in, but you've only got a few
years left before this child is a legal adult, only a few short years
to try and mend relationships and damaged self-esteem.
I hope my words can reach through some of the crud you (and most of
us) have learned that are lies and do what is best for your child. He
is hurting badly. YOu have the power to change that. Do it.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com