Looking for success stories
Christine
I'm the mother of five children aged 2 months up to age 7. We
homeschool and are quite unschoolerish. My 7 year old dd has
asperger's (a genius) and the 2 month old is legally blind. The
ones in the middle have the easier issues of food allergies and near-
sightedness.
In the preschool years I have witnessed my children learn far more
than their actual preschooled (meaning they go to preschool) peers.
My 4 year old ds could pass kindergarten math even though I have
avoided teaching him anything. He has also recently asked to read
(previous;y not even knowing the alphabet) and he's doing great at
reading lessons. My second child is one of those high achievers who
always wants to be first and therefore learned to read by age 4.
People think I'm some sort of rigorous homeschooler to have my youg
kids reading and doing math. That's all well and good, but as they
enter school-age they just want to play or color. My Early reading
child is now 5 and hasn't seemed t progress in her reading skills.
She still reads as fast as she can, mumbling through the big words
and skipping the small one so that her comprehension is pretty low.
My 7 year old just wants to play outside and color pictures. I worry
about my 7 year old who is highly creative. I'm sure she will go far
with her artistic talents, but she is also highly creative with her
spelling. She is an avid reader. She demonstrated today a magic
trick she read about in a book. Will reading enough really teach her
how to spell? Can we do nothing in particular and still have my kids
do well on those college entrance tests? Will it really be easy to
catch up on history, science, and math when the children are high
school age? How will they ever learn to write the different types of
essays so that they can be succesful in college?
Does anyone homeschool a special needs kids such as one who is blind?
Does anyone unschool a large family?
Do you lead your children in any way or just let them do whatever
they want all the time?
Does anyone unschool until a certain age such as 12 and then change
over to something more classical?
Christine
homeschool and are quite unschoolerish. My 7 year old dd has
asperger's (a genius) and the 2 month old is legally blind. The
ones in the middle have the easier issues of food allergies and near-
sightedness.
In the preschool years I have witnessed my children learn far more
than their actual preschooled (meaning they go to preschool) peers.
My 4 year old ds could pass kindergarten math even though I have
avoided teaching him anything. He has also recently asked to read
(previous;y not even knowing the alphabet) and he's doing great at
reading lessons. My second child is one of those high achievers who
always wants to be first and therefore learned to read by age 4.
People think I'm some sort of rigorous homeschooler to have my youg
kids reading and doing math. That's all well and good, but as they
enter school-age they just want to play or color. My Early reading
child is now 5 and hasn't seemed t progress in her reading skills.
She still reads as fast as she can, mumbling through the big words
and skipping the small one so that her comprehension is pretty low.
My 7 year old just wants to play outside and color pictures. I worry
about my 7 year old who is highly creative. I'm sure she will go far
with her artistic talents, but she is also highly creative with her
spelling. She is an avid reader. She demonstrated today a magic
trick she read about in a book. Will reading enough really teach her
how to spell? Can we do nothing in particular and still have my kids
do well on those college entrance tests? Will it really be easy to
catch up on history, science, and math when the children are high
school age? How will they ever learn to write the different types of
essays so that they can be succesful in college?
Does anyone homeschool a special needs kids such as one who is blind?
Does anyone unschool a large family?
Do you lead your children in any way or just let them do whatever
they want all the time?
Does anyone unschool until a certain age such as 12 and then change
over to something more classical?
Christine
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 12, 2007, at 7:22 PM, Christine wrote:
developmentally ready to understand the written word and that's what
drove him to figure our reading *not* the other way around.
All the effort in the world won't get a child to read who isn't
developmentally ready to read.
Development isn't something that the child or parents or teachers can
speed up. It just happens when the body's biology causes it to
happen. Like a growth spurt.
what looked academic, what looked like something they'd be made to do
in school, they were still playing. Kids need support in exploring
what interests *them* not in pursuing what makes parents comfortable
or proud. That can be a hard part of unschooling!
is look at the delight their child is finding in what they're doing
and not even look at school.
Live as though school didn't exist.
If school didn't exist, would you be worried about progress? And who
would be determining what is progress?
It feels good to have kids who are shining stars against some
standard. It feels like an indication of how well we're doing as
parents. But if that standard isn't useful for the child, then we do
our children way more harm than good.
While schools want every child reading independently by 4th grade no
child needs to read by 4th grade in order to be a better 9 yo. What
they need to be the best *person* they are is access to what
interests them, access to potential new interests, a supportive
environment and parents who have their own passions.
What if she decides to be an auto mechanic?
(You don't need to answer. It's something to think about.)
and *wanting* to spell better. It's not something you can rush and
more than your husband could rush you to figure out how to rebuild a
carburetor ;-)
that kids need 12 years to prepare for.
trying to see learning in school terms. Unschooling approaches
learning from a totally different direction. Kids learn what they
need to pursue their interests and absorb everything else as a side
effect. With school the side effect stuff is stuffed into them in
case they need it. If someone is thinking in school terms of how to
get all that school stuff in, unschooling doesn't seem to make much
sense. (And yet it works anyway ;-)
Reading the archives here and at:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
http://sandradodd.com
will help you turn your thinking around.
front of them that will lead them in a direction we feel would be
good for them. We're helping them find parts of the world we think
they'd be interested in exploring. It's the difference between
pushing stuff in and a child reaching out and pulling it in because
they find it fascinating.
If you saw a book at the library or a TV show coming up or a favorite
personage coming to town that your husband might be interested in,
wouldn't you pick it up, record it or mention it to him? Unschooling
is like that except more so since kids aren't living independently
yet. They depend on us to filter out the boring stuff from the
interesting stuff and run the interesting stuff by them so they can
pick it up or not as interest strikes them.
don't understand unschooling.
What you do is up to you. The list is here to help people who want to
figure out how to do unschooling, how to figure out how to keep going
after age 12 (or 6 or 14 or whatever). Sorry that's unfortunately
sounding rude. What I mean is if someone asks "Do some people learn
to knit but go no further than scarves?", the answer is yes, of
course. But the purpose of a knitting list isn't to help people feel
good about stopping at scarves. It's to help people figure out how to
knit! :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My second child is one of those high achievers whoIt will help you understand naturally learning if you see that he was
> always wants to be first and therefore learned to read by age 4.
developmentally ready to understand the written word and that's what
drove him to figure our reading *not* the other way around.
All the effort in the world won't get a child to read who isn't
developmentally ready to read.
Development isn't something that the child or parents or teachers can
speed up. It just happens when the body's biology causes it to
happen. Like a growth spurt.
> That's all well and good, but as theyPlaying is how kids make sense of the world. Though they were doing
> enter school-age they just want to play or color.
what looked academic, what looked like something they'd be made to do
in school, they were still playing. Kids need support in exploring
what interests *them* not in pursuing what makes parents comfortable
or proud. That can be a hard part of unschooling!
> My Early readingOne of the most helpful things someone attempting unschooling can do
> child is now 5 and hasn't seemed t progress in her reading skills.
is look at the delight their child is finding in what they're doing
and not even look at school.
Live as though school didn't exist.
If school didn't exist, would you be worried about progress? And who
would be determining what is progress?
It feels good to have kids who are shining stars against some
standard. It feels like an indication of how well we're doing as
parents. But if that standard isn't useful for the child, then we do
our children way more harm than good.
While schools want every child reading independently by 4th grade no
child needs to read by 4th grade in order to be a better 9 yo. What
they need to be the best *person* they are is access to what
interests them, access to potential new interests, a supportive
environment and parents who have their own passions.
> I'm sure she will go farWhat if she doesn't live up to your expectation and vision of her?
> with her artistic talents,
What if she decides to be an auto mechanic?
(You don't need to answer. It's something to think about.)
> but she is also highly creative with herNot usually. What helps kids spell better is wanting to communicate
> spelling. ... Will reading enough really teach her
> how to spell?
and *wanting* to spell better. It's not something you can rush and
more than your husband could rush you to figure out how to rebuild a
carburetor ;-)
> Can we do nothing in particular and still have my kidsDo they want to take college entrance exams? ;-) It's not something
> do well on those college entrance tests?
that kids need 12 years to prepare for.
> Will it really be easy toThere aren't quick answers that will satisfy you while you're still
> catch up on history, science, and math when the children are high
> school age? How will they ever learn to write the different types of
> essays so that they can be succesful in college?
trying to see learning in school terms. Unschooling approaches
learning from a totally different direction. Kids learn what they
need to pursue their interests and absorb everything else as a side
effect. With school the side effect stuff is stuffed into them in
case they need it. If someone is thinking in school terms of how to
get all that school stuff in, unschooling doesn't seem to make much
sense. (And yet it works anyway ;-)
Reading the archives here and at:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
http://sandradodd.com
will help you turn your thinking around.
> Do you lead your children in any way or just let them do whateverIt's more that we're living life together. We're not putting stuff in
> they want all the time?
front of them that will lead them in a direction we feel would be
good for them. We're helping them find parts of the world we think
they'd be interested in exploring. It's the difference between
pushing stuff in and a child reaching out and pulling it in because
they find it fascinating.
If you saw a book at the library or a TV show coming up or a favorite
personage coming to town that your husband might be interested in,
wouldn't you pick it up, record it or mention it to him? Unschooling
is like that except more so since kids aren't living independently
yet. They depend on us to filter out the boring stuff from the
interesting stuff and run the interesting stuff by them so they can
pick it up or not as interest strikes them.
>Lots of people undoubtedly. But if they do then they don't trust and
> Does anyone unschool until a certain age such as 12 and then change
> over to something more classical?
don't understand unschooling.
What you do is up to you. The list is here to help people who want to
figure out how to do unschooling, how to figure out how to keep going
after age 12 (or 6 or 14 or whatever). Sorry that's unfortunately
sounding rude. What I mean is if someone asks "Do some people learn
to knit but go no further than scarves?", the answer is yes, of
course. But the purpose of a knitting list isn't to help people feel
good about stopping at scarves. It's to help people figure out how to
knit! :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chandelle'
i grew up going to public school, then a charter school, started attending
college at 13, graduated high school at 15, had my first degree by 18, and i
can't say i really learned much of anything in school. i did well in
school, graduated salutatorian (not valedictorian because of my math
grades) even though i only attended a third of the year my junior and
senior years because i had already covered all of the material on my own
before i even knew what we were studying...because i liked to read. like to
read. i was a voracious reader from 4 on and i read constantly. i read
through every class i had, sometimes hidden and sometimes in the open. i
never read a textbook from junior high on. i read several books every day.
i would do my required homework without even thinking about it, write
10-page essays a couple of hours before they were due, and basically from
8th grade on just showed up for tests and spent the rest of the time in the
park reading on my own, which i got away with because i was a good kid other
than my chronic truancy and i always got As and nobody told my parents
because they knew my family was abusive. in college, i rarely attended
classes, just showed up for tests (not even that very often since starting
my sophomore year most of the tests were online). i bet i attended less
than 5% of my classes in college. i was a double pre-med major, so i always
went to my labs, because i liked them, but other than that, i never read the
textbook, rarely went to class. i did my assignments in advance, often
before the semester even started, and always got good grades. in 10th grade
i had a very excellent business venture of writing essays for students at my
university for $500-$1000 a pop. i guaranteed an A or they didn't have to
pay me. i never did one without getting paid. i'd crank out five to ten
essays a week. i gave it up because my parents noticed how much money was
going into my account and thought i was dealing drugs. (i'm more ethical
than this now.) i'm really not saying this to brag, but to explain that
it's because everything i did, everything i knew, i learned from books that
i read on my own, that i feel confident letting my kids unschool. i learned
next to nothing in school. i guess i learned some basic math skills. i
went through higher math because it was necessary in pre-med, but i don't
remember an ounce of it. i can barely subtract well. and why is that?
because it BORES me. it's extremely difficult for me to learn something i'm
not interested in, and impossible for me to retain it. i learned enough to
pass the tests, and then promptly forgot it...which is EXACTLY what public
school teaches kids to do with EVERYTHING they "learn." i was a lucky one
because i loved to read and i was voracious for information and knowledge
about anything and everything that occurred to me to think about. but i
think that's pretty rare amongst kids who are public-schooled.
oh, and everything i know about grammar, spelling, etc., i learned from
reading. (this whole not-using-capitals thing is just a quirk, not because
i don't know how to use them. :) ) from 1st grade on my teachers didn't
even bother trying to get me to do reading/spelling worksheets. i went to
reading classes with the 6th graders and let them copy off me. so i
wouldn't worry about your daughter. sounds to me like she knows what she's
doing.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
college at 13, graduated high school at 15, had my first degree by 18, and i
can't say i really learned much of anything in school. i did well in
school, graduated salutatorian (not valedictorian because of my math
grades) even though i only attended a third of the year my junior and
senior years because i had already covered all of the material on my own
before i even knew what we were studying...because i liked to read. like to
read. i was a voracious reader from 4 on and i read constantly. i read
through every class i had, sometimes hidden and sometimes in the open. i
never read a textbook from junior high on. i read several books every day.
i would do my required homework without even thinking about it, write
10-page essays a couple of hours before they were due, and basically from
8th grade on just showed up for tests and spent the rest of the time in the
park reading on my own, which i got away with because i was a good kid other
than my chronic truancy and i always got As and nobody told my parents
because they knew my family was abusive. in college, i rarely attended
classes, just showed up for tests (not even that very often since starting
my sophomore year most of the tests were online). i bet i attended less
than 5% of my classes in college. i was a double pre-med major, so i always
went to my labs, because i liked them, but other than that, i never read the
textbook, rarely went to class. i did my assignments in advance, often
before the semester even started, and always got good grades. in 10th grade
i had a very excellent business venture of writing essays for students at my
university for $500-$1000 a pop. i guaranteed an A or they didn't have to
pay me. i never did one without getting paid. i'd crank out five to ten
essays a week. i gave it up because my parents noticed how much money was
going into my account and thought i was dealing drugs. (i'm more ethical
than this now.) i'm really not saying this to brag, but to explain that
it's because everything i did, everything i knew, i learned from books that
i read on my own, that i feel confident letting my kids unschool. i learned
next to nothing in school. i guess i learned some basic math skills. i
went through higher math because it was necessary in pre-med, but i don't
remember an ounce of it. i can barely subtract well. and why is that?
because it BORES me. it's extremely difficult for me to learn something i'm
not interested in, and impossible for me to retain it. i learned enough to
pass the tests, and then promptly forgot it...which is EXACTLY what public
school teaches kids to do with EVERYTHING they "learn." i was a lucky one
because i loved to read and i was voracious for information and knowledge
about anything and everything that occurred to me to think about. but i
think that's pretty rare amongst kids who are public-schooled.
oh, and everything i know about grammar, spelling, etc., i learned from
reading. (this whole not-using-capitals thing is just a quirk, not because
i don't know how to use them. :) ) from 1st grade on my teachers didn't
even bother trying to get me to do reading/spelling worksheets. i went to
reading classes with the 6th graders and let them copy off me. so i
wouldn't worry about your daughter. sounds to me like she knows what she's
doing.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
Bwahahaha! We're still early in the game, but I consider us a 'success story'. If you *want* a
list of credentials
1) Two with autism diagnosis
2) Three more younger ones who *could* get a dx if we thought we needed it, adhd, sad,
and asd
3) Food allergies to wheat, corn and milk
4) seven kids all together
5) Recovery from five years of school in hell
After two years out of school, I've seen so much success in my kids. Perhaps not as
mainstreamers would see it, but I've seen my kids become more confident, self-
knowledgable, relaxed, and able to participate in life. They can be who they are, and
succeed at that. If I felt I had to prove anything to mainstream homeschoolers, I've seen
two kids learn to read by themselves, I've witnessed five kids figure out multiplication and
division on their own, and I've heard all kinds of wisdom and knowledge concerning arts,
history, social studies, etc.
It's really not as black and white as 'leading' the kids vs letting them do 'whatever'. Really
we work together as a team. I am on my toes all the time observing them, being involved,
keeping an eye out for their interests and their abilities so that I can support them in that
without them needing to verbalize all needs to me.
My oldest is 12. He and I just talked recently about preparing for college. He has an
unschooled friend in his scout patrol who, when he turned 14 decided he wanted to go to
college and asked his parents to help him prepare for testing and basic classes. He is fairly
prepared as far as I can observe, in that he's intelligent, well-read and mature, which
probably puts him above 3/4 of high school graduates. I'm not going to push any type of
curriculum or learning that *I* feel is important for adulthood, because I've seen all of my
kids seek out information and be willing to expand on it. I can only imagine that as they
get older, that knowledge will encompass more of the world than it does now.
Anyway, nice to see you at the group, it's really helped me a lot in the past year or two.
Melissa, in Oklahoma
list of credentials
1) Two with autism diagnosis
2) Three more younger ones who *could* get a dx if we thought we needed it, adhd, sad,
and asd
3) Food allergies to wheat, corn and milk
4) seven kids all together
5) Recovery from five years of school in hell
After two years out of school, I've seen so much success in my kids. Perhaps not as
mainstreamers would see it, but I've seen my kids become more confident, self-
knowledgable, relaxed, and able to participate in life. They can be who they are, and
succeed at that. If I felt I had to prove anything to mainstream homeschoolers, I've seen
two kids learn to read by themselves, I've witnessed five kids figure out multiplication and
division on their own, and I've heard all kinds of wisdom and knowledge concerning arts,
history, social studies, etc.
It's really not as black and white as 'leading' the kids vs letting them do 'whatever'. Really
we work together as a team. I am on my toes all the time observing them, being involved,
keeping an eye out for their interests and their abilities so that I can support them in that
without them needing to verbalize all needs to me.
My oldest is 12. He and I just talked recently about preparing for college. He has an
unschooled friend in his scout patrol who, when he turned 14 decided he wanted to go to
college and asked his parents to help him prepare for testing and basic classes. He is fairly
prepared as far as I can observe, in that he's intelligent, well-read and mature, which
probably puts him above 3/4 of high school graduates. I'm not going to push any type of
curriculum or learning that *I* feel is important for adulthood, because I've seen all of my
kids seek out information and be willing to expand on it. I can only imagine that as they
get older, that knowledge will encompass more of the world than it does now.
Anyway, nice to see you at the group, it's really helped me a lot in the past year or two.
Melissa, in Oklahoma
--- In [email protected], "Christine" <christineka@...> wrote:
> Does anyone homeschool a special needs kids such as one who is blind?
>
> Does anyone unschool a large family?
>
> Do you lead your children in any way or just let them do whatever
> they want all the time?
>
> Does anyone unschool until a certain age such as 12 and then change
> over to something more classical?
>
> Christine
>
chandelle'
Live as though school didn't exist.
i love this.
What if she doesn't live up to your expectation and vision of her?
What if she decides to be an auto mechanic?
that's EXACTLY what i say! i feel like there are a lot of expectations on
my kids because of my brilliant husband and my history. i feel like my son
is pretty much completely "normal" developmentally - and i was too - but i
notice people looking for signs of "giftedness" in him and that's exactly
what i say...maybe he won't be a famous writer, or a gifted artist or a rich
entrepreneur. maybe he'll be a janitor. he won't be any less a worthwhile
individual if he does so. if that's what my child grows up to do, i'll be
happy so long as i know that he *chose* that work because he likes to clean
or something. :) as long as my children *enjoy* what they do, i think i'll
feel like i did ok as a parent.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
i love this.
What if she doesn't live up to your expectation and vision of her?
What if she decides to be an auto mechanic?
that's EXACTLY what i say! i feel like there are a lot of expectations on
my kids because of my brilliant husband and my history. i feel like my son
is pretty much completely "normal" developmentally - and i was too - but i
notice people looking for signs of "giftedness" in him and that's exactly
what i say...maybe he won't be a famous writer, or a gifted artist or a rich
entrepreneur. maybe he'll be a janitor. he won't be any less a worthwhile
individual if he does so. if that's what my child grows up to do, i'll be
happy so long as i know that he *chose* that work because he likes to clean
or something. :) as long as my children *enjoy* what they do, i think i'll
feel like i did ok as a parent.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christine
>I don't have any particular expectations, other than I really hope my
> What if she doesn't live up to your expectation and vision of her?
> What if she decides to be an auto mechanic?
kids turn out better than my husband. It isn't that my husband is a
terrible person or anything. He is brilliant in math and sciences,
but he went to public school and hated everything but math and
science. He didn't do homework except a little in calculus because he
thought it was fun. He did really really well on the SAT and yet he
barely (as in right at 2.0 I believe) graduated from high school. He
had no interest in college- except for his math classes and musical
organizations. He dropped out of college with no intent to go back.
It wasn't until we were married, had a baby, and were living poorly
off of his walmart income that he decided to go to college. Still he
was thinking of how to get a high paying job quickly, so he went into
computers. It was five years later that he got a walmart computer
job. Two years later and he's got a computer job with another company
that doesn't pay much better and the hours are aweful. Yet, my
husband is brilliant! He wants a better job, earning more money and
working normal hours so that we can have normal family relationships.
(It is very hard to have any kind of together time when he's asleep
when I'm awake and vice versa.)
So, I would like my boys to get good educations so that they can go
into whatever field they want and make enough money to support however
people are in his family (be it 1 or 12). I want my daughters to be
able to have the education they need to do what they want to do in
life. I want them to have this education even if they plan to be
homemakers just like me. (In case marriage doesn't happen, fails, or
their spouse dies, or whatever.)
That's all. If my artistic child wants to be an auto mechanic that is
fine. If my performer son wants to be a florist he can go ahead. I
just don't want them stuck in jobs that don't pay the bills because
they haven't got the education or skills for anything better.
Christine
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Christine"
<christineka@...> wrote:
doesn't equate with poverty.
For that matter, raking in the bucks doesn'
<christineka@...> wrote:
>IEducation doesn't guarantee a well paying job. Lack of education
> just don't want them stuck in jobs that don't pay the bills because
> they haven't got the education or skills for anything better.
doesn't equate with poverty.
For that matter, raking in the bucks doesn'
>her?
> >
> > What if she doesn't live up to your expectation and vision of
> > What if she decides to be an auto mechanic?my
>
> I don't have any particular expectations, other than I really hope
> kids turn out better than my husband. It isn't that my husband isa
> terrible person or anything. He is brilliant in math and sciences,because he
> but he went to public school and hated everything but math and
> science. He didn't do homework except a little in calculus
> thought it was fun. He did really really well on the SAT and yethe
> barely (as in right at 2.0 I believe) graduated from high school.He
> had no interest in college- except for his math classes and musicalback.
> organizations. He dropped out of college with no intent to go
> It wasn't until we were married, had a baby, and were living poorlyhe
> off of his walmart income that he decided to go to college. Still
> was thinking of how to get a high paying job quickly, so he wentinto
> computers. It was five years later that he got a walmart computercompany
> job. Two years later and he's got a computer job with another
> that doesn't pay much better and the hours are aweful. Yet, myand
> husband is brilliant! He wants a better job, earning more money
> working normal hours so that we can have normal familyrelationships.
> (It is very hard to have any kind of together time when he'sasleep
> when I'm awake and vice versa.)however
>
> So, I would like my boys to get good educations so that they can go
> into whatever field they want and make enough money to support
> people are in his family (be it 1 or 12). I want my daughters tobe
> able to have the education they need to do what they want to do inor
> life. I want them to have this education even if they plan to be
> homemakers just like me. (In case marriage doesn't happen, fails,
> their spouse dies, or whatever.)that is
>
> That's all. If my artistic child wants to be an auto mechanic
> fine. If my performer son wants to be a florist he can go ahead.I
> just don't want them stuck in jobs that don't pay the bills because
> they haven't got the education or skills for anything better.
>
> Christine
>
chandelle'
I
just don't want them stuck in jobs that don't pay the bills because
they haven't got the education or skills for anything better.
this is funny, because my main concern is my kids being stuck in a job just
because it pays the bills...like my parents. my dad is brilliant with math,
science, etc., like a friggin' genius, but he got married very young and
then had to support me. so he became a machinist. sure, he was using math
on a daily basis, and making excellent money, but he hated his job. when i
was almost out of school he cut off his thumb at work, lost his job, and
basically had a midlife crisis a little early. he went back to school to
work in computers because that was what was *hot*, and that's what he does
now...and he hates it. imagine if he had just suffered living in poverty
for a few years so he could do what he *really* would have loved, like
architecture or physics. maybe that sounds selfish, but my husband and i
lived far, far below the poverty line our first few years of marriage, and
while it was hard, it was always worth it. making lots of money is not our
intent. in fact, we're sort of going out of our way NOT to make so much
money that we have more than we need. having *just enough* is our goal, and
we're very lucky to both be pursuing careers that we absolutely adore, even
if we won't make buckets of money doing it, and even if we have to
struggle. our kids have never been without clothing, healthy food, a good
home, and most importantly, happy parents, and that's all that matters.
besides, nowadays the idea that college equals "a good education" that will
guarantee a good job and hence good money is really quite outdated. in
certain professions, sure. but i know just as many people who have very
high degrees who are working at telemarketing companies because there's just
no demand for their field. and i know other people who never even graduated
from high school who may not be making lots of money but they are doing what
they love. there are literally millions of trade schools all over the world
that teach people of all ages how to do what they love. i'm attending one
right now, and wondering why i'm going to be in debt for the next 50 years
from my pre-med education when i'm pursuing naturopathy now, something much
more suited to *me* if not widely accepted amongst the "old-schoolers" who
think it's not a "real" career. it took a long time for me to confront the
idea that having a bunch of letters after my name,and being the recipient of
ever higher degrees, did not make me a more worthwhile person, just as it
took my husband a long time to realize that, even though he could have made
$120,000 a year as a mandarin-speaking chemical engineer, he really wanted
to be a teacher. (i remember being ten years old telling my parents, "i'm
going to be a ph.d", to which they responded, "in what?" "i don't know. i
just want to be a ph.d." wonder what my focus was?) more than anything
else i don't want my kids to be locked in to *anything* because it seems
more appopriate to someone else...like my grandparents who said, why not
nursing school? when i was a student midwife, and who say now, why not going
back to medical school? now that i'm studying to be a naturopath. sigh.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
just don't want them stuck in jobs that don't pay the bills because
they haven't got the education or skills for anything better.
this is funny, because my main concern is my kids being stuck in a job just
because it pays the bills...like my parents. my dad is brilliant with math,
science, etc., like a friggin' genius, but he got married very young and
then had to support me. so he became a machinist. sure, he was using math
on a daily basis, and making excellent money, but he hated his job. when i
was almost out of school he cut off his thumb at work, lost his job, and
basically had a midlife crisis a little early. he went back to school to
work in computers because that was what was *hot*, and that's what he does
now...and he hates it. imagine if he had just suffered living in poverty
for a few years so he could do what he *really* would have loved, like
architecture or physics. maybe that sounds selfish, but my husband and i
lived far, far below the poverty line our first few years of marriage, and
while it was hard, it was always worth it. making lots of money is not our
intent. in fact, we're sort of going out of our way NOT to make so much
money that we have more than we need. having *just enough* is our goal, and
we're very lucky to both be pursuing careers that we absolutely adore, even
if we won't make buckets of money doing it, and even if we have to
struggle. our kids have never been without clothing, healthy food, a good
home, and most importantly, happy parents, and that's all that matters.
besides, nowadays the idea that college equals "a good education" that will
guarantee a good job and hence good money is really quite outdated. in
certain professions, sure. but i know just as many people who have very
high degrees who are working at telemarketing companies because there's just
no demand for their field. and i know other people who never even graduated
from high school who may not be making lots of money but they are doing what
they love. there are literally millions of trade schools all over the world
that teach people of all ages how to do what they love. i'm attending one
right now, and wondering why i'm going to be in debt for the next 50 years
from my pre-med education when i'm pursuing naturopathy now, something much
more suited to *me* if not widely accepted amongst the "old-schoolers" who
think it's not a "real" career. it took a long time for me to confront the
idea that having a bunch of letters after my name,and being the recipient of
ever higher degrees, did not make me a more worthwhile person, just as it
took my husband a long time to realize that, even though he could have made
$120,000 a year as a mandarin-speaking chemical engineer, he really wanted
to be a teacher. (i remember being ten years old telling my parents, "i'm
going to be a ph.d", to which they responded, "in what?" "i don't know. i
just want to be a ph.d." wonder what my focus was?) more than anything
else i don't want my kids to be locked in to *anything* because it seems
more appopriate to someone else...like my grandparents who said, why not
nursing school? when i was a student midwife, and who say now, why not going
back to medical school? now that i'm studying to be a naturopath. sigh.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Woops, sorry y'all. That last post wasn't anywhere near ready to
send :(
--- In [email protected], "Christine"
<christineka@...> wrote:
Personally, I don't find these sorts of negative comparisons very
helpful, though. They invite stress and worry, rather than allowing
me to focus on the good, the positive, the successes that my kids
experience every day right before my eyes. My partner too, for that
matter.
fulfillment. How can you help them do that Right Now?
One of the things that hampers so many people is a terribly feeling
that there's not enough - love, time, money, support - so that even
those who "objectively" have plenty don't see or feel that. Schools
encourage that mentality by rating everything - are you good enough?
What's your score? Part of unschooling is stepping away from those
ratings and comparisons and cultivating a sense of plenty.
up their "cup of love", as it were, and support them for Who They
Are right now. Interests very often come and go and kids (and adults
too) often learn things in "spurts". My now 5.5yo went through a
phase about a year ago where she was drawn to reading and ready to
do it. Once she could read to her level of understanding, she
stopped being interested. She'll read something for information, or
read a story to another child, but doesn't read for her own pleasure
at the moment. Now she's in the midst of a passion for drawing and
(since its spring here) mud. If I were to coax her to try to read
more, she wouldn't necessarily "progress" - but she would almost
certainly feel lacking.
Does she dig? Catch critters? Role-play? Play is enormously rich and
complex behavior, filled with learning and exploration. Connect with
her play and *see* what she's learning and exploring. Same with her
coloring - is she exploring color? experimenting with materials?
revelling in the motions and smells?
how they approach different situations, where their strengths and
passions lie. Based on those observations I may offer a toy or game
or activity or idea, but its always an offer, never a requirement.
Observing my kids I can see that "doing what they want" often leads
them to amazing things that *I* would never have considered on my
own - like my stepson learning about market fluxuations and exchange
rates playing a computer game involving dragons and magic. Or my dd
learning about the structure of DNA molecules from wondering what
various foods are "made of".
school until this past fall, when he moved in with us and started
unschooling. He's 13. Is he "more successful" at home than he was at
school? He's a wonderfully introspective young person who enjoys
learning from other people. At school that was spelled "Disruptive".
Here, its Who He Is and how he learns.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
send :(
--- In [email protected], "Christine"
<christineka@...> wrote:
>> I don't have any particular expectations, other than I reallyIts natural to want "the best" for our kids and for their future.
>hope my kids turn out better than my husband.
Personally, I don't find these sorts of negative comparisons very
helpful, though. They invite stress and worry, rather than allowing
me to focus on the good, the positive, the successes that my kids
experience every day right before my eyes. My partner too, for that
matter.
>ITurn this around - you want them to live lives of abundance and
> just don't want them stuck in jobs that don't pay the bills because
> they haven't got the education or skills for anything better.
fulfillment. How can you help them do that Right Now?
One of the things that hampers so many people is a terribly feeling
that there's not enough - love, time, money, support - so that even
those who "objectively" have plenty don't see or feel that. Schools
encourage that mentality by rating everything - are you good enough?
What's your score? Part of unschooling is stepping away from those
ratings and comparisons and cultivating a sense of plenty.
> That's all well and good, but as theyWhat a wonderful opportunity for you to connect with them, to fill
> enter school-age they just want to play or color.
up their "cup of love", as it were, and support them for Who They
Are right now. Interests very often come and go and kids (and adults
too) often learn things in "spurts". My now 5.5yo went through a
phase about a year ago where she was drawn to reading and ready to
do it. Once she could read to her level of understanding, she
stopped being interested. She'll read something for information, or
read a story to another child, but doesn't read for her own pleasure
at the moment. Now she's in the midst of a passion for drawing and
(since its spring here) mud. If I were to coax her to try to read
more, she wouldn't necessarily "progress" - but she would almost
certainly feel lacking.
> My 7 year old just wants to play outside and color pictures.What/how does she like to play? Does she like big body movements?
Does she dig? Catch critters? Role-play? Play is enormously rich and
complex behavior, filled with learning and exploration. Connect with
her play and *see* what she's learning and exploring. Same with her
coloring - is she exploring color? experimenting with materials?
revelling in the motions and smells?
> Do you lead your children in any way or just let them do whateverI put a lot of energy into observing what my kids are interested in,
> they want all the time?
how they approach different situations, where their strengths and
passions lie. Based on those observations I may offer a toy or game
or activity or idea, but its always an offer, never a requirement.
Observing my kids I can see that "doing what they want" often leads
them to amazing things that *I* would never have considered on my
own - like my stepson learning about market fluxuations and exchange
rates playing a computer game involving dragons and magic. Or my dd
learning about the structure of DNA molecules from wondering what
various foods are "made of".
> Does anyone unschool until a certain age such as 12 and thenchange
> over to something more classical?Actually, my stepson is doing exactly the opposite. He was in public
school until this past fall, when he moved in with us and started
unschooling. He's 13. Is he "more successful" at home than he was at
school? He's a wonderfully introspective young person who enjoys
learning from other people. At school that was spelled "Disruptive".
Here, its Who He Is and how he learns.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
Christine
> >> I don't have any particular expectations, other than I reallyThe thing is that my husband is unhappy with his job. He wants more
> >hope my kids turn out better than my husband.
>
> Its natural to want "the best" for our kids and for their future.
> Personally, I don't find these sorts of negative comparisons very
> helpful, though. They invite stress and worry, rather than allowing
> me to focus on the good, the positive, the successes that my kids
> experience every day right before my eyes. My partner too, for that
> matter.
education, but since he needs to support a family of 7 he has to work
full time and therefore we have no time or money for him to get the
education he needs and wants. We already wasted money on some "get
education quick" scheme that he failed at. He never got anything out
of it.
> >II'm not looking for them to have overabundance. I don't want it
> > just don't want them stuck in jobs that don't pay the bills because
> > they haven't got the education or skills for anything better.
>
> Turn this around - you want them to live lives of abundance and
> fulfillment. How can you help them do that Right Now?
either. I don't want my kids to have kids on medicaid (like us) or
rely on wic as a source of food (they don't give you enough to live
on, especially if the kids are allergic to milk and peanuts). Sure
penny pinching, living frugally, learning to cook from scratch, and
cloth diapering are all worthwhile things to learn and experience.
Even humbling oneself to accept aid for a short time is okay. I don't
want them living bummer lives, being unhappy because they don't have
sufficient means to support themselves and/or a family. Neither do I
want them to make welfare a way of life. I also don't want them
living off of me (like my younger brother), nor do I want them to
spend their money unwisely so that they have none (as dh's siblings do
and dh would do if he did not have me).
> One of the things that hampers so many people is a terribly feelingIt is hard to cultivate a sense of plenty when the kids and the dh are
> that there's not enough - love, time, money, support - so that even
> those who "objectively" have plenty don't see or feel that. Schools
> encourage that mentality by rating everything - are you good enough?
> What's your score? Part of unschooling is stepping away from those
> ratings and comparisons and cultivating a sense of plenty.
hungry and complain every night that they hate beans.
> > My 7 year old just wants to play outside and color pictures.My dd has asperger's. Her brain is wired differently than others.
>
> What/how does she like to play? Does she like big body movements?
> Does she dig? Catch critters? Role-play? Play is enormously rich and
> complex behavior, filled with learning and exploration. Connect with
> her play and *see* what she's learning and exploring. Same with her
> coloring - is she exploring color? experimenting with materials?
> revelling in the motions and smells?
Her play is always quite similar to whatever she did in days past.
Sge used to play a game she titled "pegasus, pegasus fly away". Now
she plays one called "Peter Pan, Peter Pan fly away". I don't know
what she actually does. She does collect bugs and she will read books
about them if I get the book from the library. She never decides she
wants any sort of book. She never asks "Why?" either.
My 5 year old is one of those competitive children who is really only
interested in being better than everyone else. She has no real
interests of her own. 7 year old is obsessed with Peter Pan, readimg,
strings, and loves bugs and horses. She is interested enough that she
will read books about them if the books are at our house. 5 year old
will read a book if older sister has read it. 7 year old plays with
horses (the plastic kind). 5 year old will play horses with her. The
only time 5 year old draws the line in doing what older sister does is
when she plays trains. Then 5 year old goes and plays dolls with 2
year old sister.
I have to admit that with 4 kids aged 2-7 and a small baby with a
house and an unhelping husband (as well as kids) I just don't have the
time to do a whole lot with the kids. My house is no where near
spotless either. In fact others would call it a pig stye. I'm
drowning in laundry, dishes, cooking, cleaning, everything... I still
have Thank You notes to write... I wish my kids would help out
without me having to yell at them. (I don't like yelling, so they
don't help.)
>I recently taught them a new card game because they love games and I
> > Do you lead your children in any way or just let them do whatever
> > they want all the time?
>
> I put a lot of energy into observing what my kids are interested in,
> how they approach different situations, where their strengths and
> passions lie. Based on those observations I may offer a toy or game
> or activity or idea, but its always an offer, never a requirement.
hate having pieces all over the floor. They love the card game and it
happens to deal with numbers and which one is more (War). That is
okay to do then? I also taught them a new drawing technique (drawing
cubes).
> > Does anyone unschool until a certain age such as 12 and thenThe reason I ask is because A Thomas Jefferson Education seems to do
> change
> > over to something more classical?
>
that. I'm still not quite sure because you have to buy their books to
find out more. Every time I ask the TJeders a question they tell me
to read some book or pamphlet which the public library doesn't own.
I also have issues with family members always wanting updates and
such. They tell me I'm ruining my kids just by homeschooling (and
they all believe I make them do "school" every day too.) I'm failing
my dd with asperger's. I'm sure my blind son will be at an extreme
disadvantage too. Whenever my mother visits she likes to tell the
kids they need to do their schoolwork before they can play. (What
schoolwork?) Of course, my mom being a teacher only visits when her
school is on break. I don't know why homeschoolers don't deserve such
breaks.
Christine
Cameron Parham
Christine, I will paraprase a poem on the wall of our psychologists' waiting room in answer to this. My son has seen it since he was 3 or 4, and he quoted it to me when he was aware that I was exploring radical unschooling. I do not know the author.
"I tried to teach my child with books
He only gave me puzzled looks
I tried to teach my child with words
They passed him by often unheard.
How shall I teach this child?
I just can't see!
Then into my hands he placed the key
Come, he said, and play with me!
For your childrens' ages their desires are deeply appropriate. This is their sacred, right work. Please read some more about the nature of children's learning processes and development. You have no need to worry! Cameron
----- Original Message ----
From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 10:20:42 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Looking for success stories
Woops, sorry y'all. That last post wasn't anywhere near ready to
send :(
--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, "Christine"
<christineka@ ...> wrote:
Personally, I don't find these sorts of negative comparisons very
helpful, though. They invite stress and worry, rather than allowing
me to focus on the good, the positive, the successes that my kids
experience every day right before my eyes. My partner too, for that
matter.
fulfillment. How can you help them do that Right Now?
One of the things that hampers so many people is a terribly feeling
that there's not enough - love, time, money, support - so that even
those who "objectively" have plenty don't see or feel that. Schools
encourage that mentality by rating everything - are you good enough?
What's your score? Part of unschooling is stepping away from those
ratings and comparisons and cultivating a sense of plenty.
up their "cup of love", as it were, and support them for Who They
Are right now. Interests very often come and go and kids (and adults
too) often learn things in "spurts". My now 5.5yo went through a
phase about a year ago where she was drawn to reading and ready to
do it. Once she could read to her level of understanding, she
stopped being interested. She'll read something for information, or
read a story to another child, but doesn't read for her own pleasure
at the moment. Now she's in the midst of a passion for drawing and
(since its spring here) mud. If I were to coax her to try to read
more, she wouldn't necessarily "progress" - but she would almost
certainly feel lacking.
Does she dig? Catch critters? Role-play? Play is enormously rich and
complex behavior, filled with learning and exploration. Connect with
her play and *see* what she's learning and exploring. Same with her
coloring - is she exploring color? experimenting with materials?
revelling in the motions and smells?
how they approach different situations, where their strengths and
passions lie. Based on those observations I may offer a toy or game
or activity or idea, but its always an offer, never a requirement.
Observing my kids I can see that "doing what they want" often leads
them to amazing things that *I* would never have considered on my
own - like my stepson learning about market fluxuations and exchange
rates playing a computer game involving dragons and magic. Or my dd
learning about the structure of DNA molecules from wondering what
various foods are "made of".
school until this past fall, when he moved in with us and started
unschooling. He's 13. Is he "more successful" at home than he was at
school? He's a wonderfully introspective young person who enjoys
learning from other people. At school that was spelled "Disruptive" .
Here, its Who He Is and how he learns.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"I tried to teach my child with books
He only gave me puzzled looks
I tried to teach my child with words
They passed him by often unheard.
How shall I teach this child?
I just can't see!
Then into my hands he placed the key
Come, he said, and play with me!
For your childrens' ages their desires are deeply appropriate. This is their sacred, right work. Please read some more about the nature of children's learning processes and development. You have no need to worry! Cameron
----- Original Message ----
From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 10:20:42 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Looking for success stories
Woops, sorry y'all. That last post wasn't anywhere near ready to
send :(
--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, "Christine"
<christineka@ ...> wrote:
>> I don't have any particular expectations, other than I reallyIts natural to want "the best" for our kids and for their future.
>hope my kids turn out better than my husband.
Personally, I don't find these sorts of negative comparisons very
helpful, though. They invite stress and worry, rather than allowing
me to focus on the good, the positive, the successes that my kids
experience every day right before my eyes. My partner too, for that
matter.
>ITurn this around - you want them to live lives of abundance and
> just don't want them stuck in jobs that don't pay the bills because
> they haven't got the education or skills for anything better.
fulfillment. How can you help them do that Right Now?
One of the things that hampers so many people is a terribly feeling
that there's not enough - love, time, money, support - so that even
those who "objectively" have plenty don't see or feel that. Schools
encourage that mentality by rating everything - are you good enough?
What's your score? Part of unschooling is stepping away from those
ratings and comparisons and cultivating a sense of plenty.
> That's all well and good, but as theyWhat a wonderful opportunity for you to connect with them, to fill
> enter school-age they just want to play or color.
up their "cup of love", as it were, and support them for Who They
Are right now. Interests very often come and go and kids (and adults
too) often learn things in "spurts". My now 5.5yo went through a
phase about a year ago where she was drawn to reading and ready to
do it. Once she could read to her level of understanding, she
stopped being interested. She'll read something for information, or
read a story to another child, but doesn't read for her own pleasure
at the moment. Now she's in the midst of a passion for drawing and
(since its spring here) mud. If I were to coax her to try to read
more, she wouldn't necessarily "progress" - but she would almost
certainly feel lacking.
> My 7 year old just wants to play outside and color pictures.What/how does she like to play? Does she like big body movements?
Does she dig? Catch critters? Role-play? Play is enormously rich and
complex behavior, filled with learning and exploration. Connect with
her play and *see* what she's learning and exploring. Same with her
coloring - is she exploring color? experimenting with materials?
revelling in the motions and smells?
> Do you lead your children in any way or just let them do whateverI put a lot of energy into observing what my kids are interested in,
> they want all the time?
how they approach different situations, where their strengths and
passions lie. Based on those observations I may offer a toy or game
or activity or idea, but its always an offer, never a requirement.
Observing my kids I can see that "doing what they want" often leads
them to amazing things that *I* would never have considered on my
own - like my stepson learning about market fluxuations and exchange
rates playing a computer game involving dragons and magic. Or my dd
learning about the structure of DNA molecules from wondering what
various foods are "made of".
> Does anyone unschool until a certain age such as 12 and thenchange
> over to something more classical?Actually, my stepson is doing exactly the opposite. He was in public
school until this past fall, when he moved in with us and started
unschooling. He's 13. Is he "more successful" at home than he was at
school? He's a wonderfully introspective young person who enjoys
learning from other people. At school that was spelled "Disruptive" .
Here, its Who He Is and how he learns.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: christineka@...
I don't have any particular expectations, other than I really hope my
kids turn out better than my husband. It isn't that my husband is a
terrible person or anything. He is brilliant in math and sciences,
but he went to public school and hated everything but math and
science. He didn't do homework except a little in calculus because he
thought it was fun. He did really really well on the SAT and yet he
barely (as in right at 2.0 I believe) graduated from high school. He
had no interest in college- except for his math classes and musical
organizations. He dropped out of college with no intent to go back.
It wasn't until we were married, had a baby, and were living poorly
off of his walmart income that he decided to go to college. Still he
was thinking of how to get a high paying job quickly, so he went into
computers. It was five years later that he got a walmart computer
job. Two years later and he's got a computer job with another company
that doesn't pay much better and the hours are aweful. Yet, my
husband is brilliant! He wants a better job, earning more money and
working normal hours so that we can have normal family relationships.
-=-=-=-=-
He went to school though. He bought into the grades thang. He believed
what school folks told him.
He wasn't thinking at ALL about what he loved. What DOES he love? If
money were no object, what would he do for fun?
If you give your children that gift: to know that they can do what
they love and the money will follow (and it DOES!), they will have all
they need.
-=-=-=-=-=-
So, I would like my boys to get good educations so that they can go
into whatever field they want and make enough money to support however
people are in his family (be it 1 or 12). I want my daughters to be
able to have the education they need to do what they want to do in
life. I want them to have this education even if they plan to be
homemakers just like me.
-=-=-=-=-
If you want them to be school-educated, send them to school.
If you believe in the philosophy of unschooling: that people are
hard-wired to learn, they will get all that and more.
But if you don't believe that, if you think that school is the best
route for your kids, send them to school. That mentality will sabotage
unschooling.
-=-=-=-=-=-
That's all. If my artistic child wants to be an auto mechanic that is
fine. If my performer son wants to be a florist he can go ahead. I
just don't want them stuck in jobs that don't pay the bills because
they haven't got the education or skills for anything better.
-=-=-=-
Through unschooling, a child learns that he can learn anything at any
time. He learns that he is NOT stuck---ever. He learns that he can
master whatever he needs to get what he wants.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: christineka@...
I don't have any particular expectations, other than I really hope my
kids turn out better than my husband. It isn't that my husband is a
terrible person or anything. He is brilliant in math and sciences,
but he went to public school and hated everything but math and
science. He didn't do homework except a little in calculus because he
thought it was fun. He did really really well on the SAT and yet he
barely (as in right at 2.0 I believe) graduated from high school. He
had no interest in college- except for his math classes and musical
organizations. He dropped out of college with no intent to go back.
It wasn't until we were married, had a baby, and were living poorly
off of his walmart income that he decided to go to college. Still he
was thinking of how to get a high paying job quickly, so he went into
computers. It was five years later that he got a walmart computer
job. Two years later and he's got a computer job with another company
that doesn't pay much better and the hours are aweful. Yet, my
husband is brilliant! He wants a better job, earning more money and
working normal hours so that we can have normal family relationships.
-=-=-=-=-
He went to school though. He bought into the grades thang. He believed
what school folks told him.
He wasn't thinking at ALL about what he loved. What DOES he love? If
money were no object, what would he do for fun?
If you give your children that gift: to know that they can do what
they love and the money will follow (and it DOES!), they will have all
they need.
-=-=-=-=-=-
So, I would like my boys to get good educations so that they can go
into whatever field they want and make enough money to support however
people are in his family (be it 1 or 12). I want my daughters to be
able to have the education they need to do what they want to do in
life. I want them to have this education even if they plan to be
homemakers just like me.
-=-=-=-=-
If you want them to be school-educated, send them to school.
If you believe in the philosophy of unschooling: that people are
hard-wired to learn, they will get all that and more.
But if you don't believe that, if you think that school is the best
route for your kids, send them to school. That mentality will sabotage
unschooling.
-=-=-=-=-=-
That's all. If my artistic child wants to be an auto mechanic that is
fine. If my performer son wants to be a florist he can go ahead. I
just don't want them stuck in jobs that don't pay the bills because
they haven't got the education or skills for anything better.
-=-=-=-
Through unschooling, a child learns that he can learn anything at any
time. He learns that he is NOT stuck---ever. He learns that he can
master whatever he needs to get what he wants.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Christine
> If you want them to be school-educated, send them to school.I would like to make it very clear- I do not intend to send my
>
> If you believe in the philosophy of unschooling: that people are
> hard-wired to learn, they will get all that and more.
children to school until they are ready for college or trade-school or
whatever higher education they want. The trouble is deciding on how
to homeschool. I've been hanging about on a homeschooling message
board for years. When I ask for ideas on how to teach something or
other people tend to give me some curriculum I ought to use to teach
my childrem. One lady is very much against teaching math without a
curriculum because apparently you have to teach it in a certain order
so that the child won't become confused later on. Many ladies
recommend looking at the worldbook website to determine what the
children should be learning in each grade. One lady is against
children reading young because it will mess up their eyes. (I'd hate
to keep my children from reading when it is something they want,
though.) I'm just bombarded with curriculums, structured, life, and
all of that. There was an unschooler on this board for about a week
before she had been attacked to death and decided to leave. The
curriculum users have good points and so do the unschoolers. It is
difficult to decide.
I might also mention that I'm halfway to being crunchy and, well, I
want to make my decisions based one what I believe to be right, not
just because it fits with my newly crunchy life. (Homeschooling,
cooking from scratch, breastfeeding, cloth diapering, baby wearing,
delaying and very selectively vaccinating- perhaps non-vaxing,
homebirthing, and having a slew of kids...If only I had money I'd go
organic too.) So, I am trying to sort out what is right. Please
don't attack me as if I'm anti unschooling. I am looking for
information and trying to figure out what is right.
Christine
katharinewise
The trouble is deciding on how
but I have to suggest that while she may be very competent in
textbook-style arithmetic and balancing her checkbook, I doubt she
really understands mathematics.
If you view math as learning a series of algorithms (add the first
column, carry the one, etc.) then she might be right -- everything has
to be learned in a certain order. However, that's not math! Math is
playing with value and relationships and patterns and figuring out new
ways to solve problems. And that is better learned without a textbook!
You don't *have* to add a column of numbers from right to left -- you
can come up with an equally valid (and actually more sensible)
algorithm working from left to right. (More sensible because errors
are more likely to be with the smaller place values -- an error in the
ones instead of the thousands:-) Or you can round up or down in your
head and then compensate at the end as my kids usually do. (For
example -- 53+88=50+90+1.) You'll be *amazed* at what your kids will
figure out for themselves and how they'll approach math. They may even
think that having mom call out, "What's 2/3 of 117?" is a fun way to
pass the time on a long drive! (I wasn't trying to squeeze some math
in, honest, it was just a desperate attempt to entertain the masses!)
I could go on, but my husband is about finished reading to the boys
and my attention will be needed again:-)
Katharine
> to homeschool. I've been hanging about on a homeschooling messageThe lady in question would undoubtedly be insulted if she saw this,
> board for years. When I ask for ideas on how to teach something or
> other people tend to give me some curriculum I ought to use to teach
> my childrem. One lady is very much against teaching math without a
> curriculum because apparently you have to teach it in a certain order
> so that the child won't become confused later on.
but I have to suggest that while she may be very competent in
textbook-style arithmetic and balancing her checkbook, I doubt she
really understands mathematics.
If you view math as learning a series of algorithms (add the first
column, carry the one, etc.) then she might be right -- everything has
to be learned in a certain order. However, that's not math! Math is
playing with value and relationships and patterns and figuring out new
ways to solve problems. And that is better learned without a textbook!
You don't *have* to add a column of numbers from right to left -- you
can come up with an equally valid (and actually more sensible)
algorithm working from left to right. (More sensible because errors
are more likely to be with the smaller place values -- an error in the
ones instead of the thousands:-) Or you can round up or down in your
head and then compensate at the end as my kids usually do. (For
example -- 53+88=50+90+1.) You'll be *amazed* at what your kids will
figure out for themselves and how they'll approach math. They may even
think that having mom call out, "What's 2/3 of 117?" is a fun way to
pass the time on a long drive! (I wasn't trying to squeeze some math
in, honest, it was just a desperate attempt to entertain the masses!)
I could go on, but my husband is about finished reading to the boys
and my attention will be needed again:-)
Katharine
Melissa
--- In [email protected], "Christine" <christineka@...> wrote:
certificate to prove he deserves to earn more money. I don't mean to sound snarky, but if
you want more education, get education quick schemes don't 'teach', you jump hoops to
get a piece of paper. My SIL is a family of seven, her hubby works fulltime for Frito Lay and
is taking online courses to get a management position. They work together, she helps him
with loading chips, she helps him with homework, and it's getting done, one or two
classes at a time.
understand being pleased just to make it month to month, we have nine mouths to feed.
Believing in abundance is hard if you are eating beans every night. Have you read this
blog?
http://largefamilylogistics.lifewithchrist.org/
While it is a Christian blog, the woman is amazing with recipes for feeding large families
on a small budget.
space and time he needed to do the same thing 'over and over', he was able to branch out
in a way that was comfortable for him. I was there to provide support and help him find
those little branches. He still tends to immerse himself, and I love it. Now that he's 12, he's
immersed in computer programming. It's what he loves to do and he *could* support
himself doing that if he wanted to as an adult.
but it's worth the time. It's worth the energy. Not only are you learning more about her,
she is learning that you are there for her.
our job to find those things for them.
stuff as she goes along that is cool, and she'll want to stick longer with it. She's only five
and still exploring the world.
what to do with it. I have seven kids, ages 12 to 17 months. They are all less than two
years apart.
heard the funniest story about my MIL actually doing that when my dh was small! I thought
it was a figure of speech). Forget the thank you notes. A quick phone call saying "You
know, I was going to write a note to thank you for blahblah, but wanted to take the time
instead to tell you personally how wonderful blah was." You could even do it while pushing
a baby in the swing, or changing laundry loads, or bathing children. If you really want
paper notes, buy some cards from walmart that say thank you on front, sign your name
and let it go. You're tying yourself down with perceived notions of 'must'.
I'm
room?" or "Josh, I am late starting dinner, when you get a break would you chop the
veggies?" or "Rachel, I'm worried someone might get hurt on the hotwheels, would you
throw them back in the bin?" or my favorite from today "Sam! Your dirty underwear really
doesn't belong in the kitchen floor. Would you find a better place for them?" It's not all
day, it's not constant and it's always okay for them to say not right now, or i'm busy, or
something like that. At which point I'll holler, "I NEED SOME HELP FROM ANYONE
AVAILABLE! I'M MAKING CHOCOLATE COOKIES!" And we do. and let the rest go. But
because it's low key, and I'm not complaining or stressed about it, then they are very
willing to help. Sam is five, Dan is three, they love to help. I have the cleanest windows
EVER because they love to help ;-)
the park. Go to the library. Tell her the kids are busy learning. She has no right to visit and
tell the kids what to do. They don't 'deserve' an update, and certainly not details. Leave it
at we're doing fine. I learned some time ago to never tell family our struggles, because
they don't understand, and don't care too. They're stuck in mainstream and won't let go.
I'm sorry for them that they are missing out on a terrific life. None of your kids are at a
disadvantage...unless you insist on seeing it that way.
Melissa
> The thing is that my husband is unhappy with his job. He wants moreThat doesn't sound like he wants more education. It sounds like he's wanting to get a
> education, but since he needs to support a family of 7 he has to work
> full time and therefore we have no time or money for him to get the
> education he needs and wants. We already wasted money on some "get
> education quick" scheme that he failed at. He never got anything out
certificate to prove he deserves to earn more money. I don't mean to sound snarky, but if
you want more education, get education quick schemes don't 'teach', you jump hoops to
get a piece of paper. My SIL is a family of seven, her hubby works fulltime for Frito Lay and
is taking online courses to get a management position. They work together, she helps him
with loading chips, she helps him with homework, and it's getting done, one or two
classes at a time.
> I'm not looking for them to have overabundance. <snip>It is hard. We lived that life (and alternatively live it now) for many years. I certainly
> It is hard to cultivate a sense of plenty when the kids and the dh are
> hungry and complain every night that they hate beans.
understand being pleased just to make it month to month, we have nine mouths to feed.
Believing in abundance is hard if you are eating beans every night. Have you read this
blog?
http://largefamilylogistics.lifewithchrist.org/
While it is a Christian blog, the woman is amazing with recipes for feeding large families
on a small budget.
> My dd has asperger's. Her brain is wired differently than others.My son also has aspergers. Can you believe that it does get better? By allowing my son the
> Her play is always quite similar to whatever she did in days past.
space and time he needed to do the same thing 'over and over', he was able to branch out
in a way that was comfortable for him. I was there to provide support and help him find
those little branches. He still tends to immerse himself, and I love it. Now that he's 12, he's
immersed in computer programming. It's what he loves to do and he *could* support
himself doing that if he wanted to as an adult.
> Sge used to play a game she titled "pegasus, pegasus fly away". NowIf you don't know what she does, get out there and play it with her. It may seem tedious,
> she plays one called "Peter Pan, Peter Pan fly away". I don't know
> what she actually does.
but it's worth the time. It's worth the energy. Not only are you learning more about her,
she is learning that you are there for her.
> She does collect bugs and she will read booksIf she reads them if you get them, then that's great. Keep getting them. As unschoolers it's
> about them if I get the book from the library. She never decides she
> wants any sort of book.
our job to find those things for them.
> My 5 year old is one of those competitive children who is really onlyHer interest is in competing. She's dabbling in all kinds of interesting stuff, and she'll find
> interested in being better than everyone else. She has no real
> interests of her own.
stuff as she goes along that is cool, and she'll want to stick longer with it. She's only five
and still exploring the world.
> I have to admit that with 4 kids aged 2-7 and a small baby with aSaid in compassion...you DO have the time. We all have 24 hours in the day. Our choice is
> house and an unhelping husband (as well as kids) I just don't have the
> time to do a whole lot with the kids.
what to do with it. I have seven kids, ages 12 to 17 months. They are all less than two
years apart.
> My house is no where neardrop the laundry for a while, use paper dishes, sweep everything under the rug (I just
> spotless either. In fact others would call it a pig stye.
heard the funniest story about my MIL actually doing that when my dh was small! I thought
it was a figure of speech). Forget the thank you notes. A quick phone call saying "You
know, I was going to write a note to thank you for blahblah, but wanted to take the time
instead to tell you personally how wonderful blah was." You could even do it while pushing
a baby in the swing, or changing laundry loads, or bathing children. If you really want
paper notes, buy some cards from walmart that say thank you on front, sign your name
and let it go. You're tying yourself down with perceived notions of 'must'.
I'm
> drowning in laundry, dishes, cooking, cleaning, everything... I stillI always say "Emily, I need so much help. Would you mind taking this basket to the laundry
> have Thank You notes to write... I wish my kids would help out
> without me having to yell at them. (I don't like yelling, so they
> don't help.)
room?" or "Josh, I am late starting dinner, when you get a break would you chop the
veggies?" or "Rachel, I'm worried someone might get hurt on the hotwheels, would you
throw them back in the bin?" or my favorite from today "Sam! Your dirty underwear really
doesn't belong in the kitchen floor. Would you find a better place for them?" It's not all
day, it's not constant and it's always okay for them to say not right now, or i'm busy, or
something like that. At which point I'll holler, "I NEED SOME HELP FROM ANYONE
AVAILABLE! I'M MAKING CHOCOLATE COOKIES!" And we do. and let the rest go. But
because it's low key, and I'm not complaining or stressed about it, then they are very
willing to help. Sam is five, Dan is three, they love to help. I have the cleanest windows
EVER because they love to help ;-)
> I also have issues with family members always wanting updates andDon't let her come over. Put a note on the door saying you're busy. Make plans to go to
> such. They tell me I'm ruining my kids just by homeschooling (and
> they all believe I make them do "school" every day too.) I'm failing
> my dd with asperger's. I'm sure my blind son will be at an extreme
> disadvantage too. Whenever my mother visits she likes to tell the
> kids they need to do their schoolwork before they can play. (What
> schoolwork?) Of course, my mom being a teacher only visits when her
> school is on break. I don't know why homeschoolers don't deserve such
> breaks.
the park. Go to the library. Tell her the kids are busy learning. She has no right to visit and
tell the kids what to do. They don't 'deserve' an update, and certainly not details. Leave it
at we're doing fine. I learned some time ago to never tell family our struggles, because
they don't understand, and don't care too. They're stuck in mainstream and won't let go.
I'm sorry for them that they are missing out on a terrific life. None of your kids are at a
disadvantage...unless you insist on seeing it that way.
Melissa
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Christine"
<christineka@...> wrote:
he is supporting his family, after all. No mean feat for a family of
7, especially homeschoolers. Do you let him know on a regular basis
how much you appreciate that? That's really really important. He
needs to know that he's not pissing his life down a toilet - he's
making his family Possible. That's BIG.
of abundance is vital, though. Right now, your sense of lack is
standing between you and your family. Its preventing you from
discovering alternatives and solutions. Its part of why you aren't
connecting with your kids. Its part of why your dh hates his job.
I'm not trying to point a finger and say "its all your fault" - not
at All! But if you don't believe there is enough of you to
go 'round, you won't make the effort. If you don't trust that
solutions exist, you won't look for them. If you don't believe you
can understand your 7yo, you won't connect with her. If you don't
believe anything is possible for your son, you will offer him
barriers, not opportunities.
You sound stuck. At this point, it may take a leap of faith on your
part to trust that there is enough time, energy, resources, love,
happiness for each and every member of your family (including
yourself!). Hopefully some of the stories on this board will help
you take that leap.
Make yourself a big sign that says "MY FAMILY IS A SUCCESS" and post
it somewhere you'll see it a dozen times a day. Start looking for
ways to let your brilliant, successful family SHINE every day.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
<christineka@...> wrote:
>> The thing is that my husband is unhappy with his job.All the more reason to focus on the positive aspects of his life -
he is supporting his family, after all. No mean feat for a family of
7, especially homeschoolers. Do you let him know on a regular basis
how much you appreciate that? That's really really important. He
needs to know that he's not pissing his life down a toilet - he's
making his family Possible. That's BIG.
> It is hard to cultivate a sense of plenty when the kids and the dhare
> hungry and complain every night that they hate beans.I definately know that feeling. I've been there. Cultivating a sense
of abundance is vital, though. Right now, your sense of lack is
standing between you and your family. Its preventing you from
discovering alternatives and solutions. Its part of why you aren't
connecting with your kids. Its part of why your dh hates his job.
I'm not trying to point a finger and say "its all your fault" - not
at All! But if you don't believe there is enough of you to
go 'round, you won't make the effort. If you don't trust that
solutions exist, you won't look for them. If you don't believe you
can understand your 7yo, you won't connect with her. If you don't
believe anything is possible for your son, you will offer him
barriers, not opportunities.
You sound stuck. At this point, it may take a leap of faith on your
part to trust that there is enough time, energy, resources, love,
happiness for each and every member of your family (including
yourself!). Hopefully some of the stories on this board will help
you take that leap.
Make yourself a big sign that says "MY FAMILY IS A SUCCESS" and post
it somewhere you'll see it a dozen times a day. Start looking for
ways to let your brilliant, successful family SHINE every day.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
Kathleen Gehrke
AHHH SUCCESS>>>>>>
I am the mother of nine, two being grown, seven still hanging out
here. They youngest seven would all qualify is someones book as
special needs. NOT MINE THOUGH>
We unschool and live life to the fullest each day. We party.
Sometimes we do it with a chunk of change and sometimes we do it
broke, but a party can be an afternoon exploring a new park or
dancing to the radio.
Just FYI I have a seventeen year old daughter, unschooler who is
going to nursing school this winter. She is currently working as a
nurses aid and loving being self sufficient. My fifteen year old
son plays guitar, plays video games, reads fantasy books and is
taking some courses. My thirteen year old just hired on to fix an
old motorhome up to sell. He is a handy capable person, who public
school put in fulltime special ed. My 12 year old loves gaming and
drawing. He is currently learning piano and wants to find someone to
teach him blacksmithing. He got kicked out of first grade, literally.
My eleven year old daughter sings, dances and does art almost all
day long. That sounds pretty successful.
My eight year old son, who lived in a residential treatment center
before he became ours is one of the smartest, most talented kids I
have met. He keeps up every inch with his brothers and sisters. He
is currently playing on the floor with our dogs, kissing their heads
and singing them a little song.
My six year old is the most full of love person. She loves animals
and people. If she would have ever entered school it would have been
damaging beyond words for her whole self. She lives in imagination
and delight every second.
So I guess I think unschooling is the key to success for us.
Kathleen
I am the mother of nine, two being grown, seven still hanging out
here. They youngest seven would all qualify is someones book as
special needs. NOT MINE THOUGH>
We unschool and live life to the fullest each day. We party.
Sometimes we do it with a chunk of change and sometimes we do it
broke, but a party can be an afternoon exploring a new park or
dancing to the radio.
Just FYI I have a seventeen year old daughter, unschooler who is
going to nursing school this winter. She is currently working as a
nurses aid and loving being self sufficient. My fifteen year old
son plays guitar, plays video games, reads fantasy books and is
taking some courses. My thirteen year old just hired on to fix an
old motorhome up to sell. He is a handy capable person, who public
school put in fulltime special ed. My 12 year old loves gaming and
drawing. He is currently learning piano and wants to find someone to
teach him blacksmithing. He got kicked out of first grade, literally.
My eleven year old daughter sings, dances and does art almost all
day long. That sounds pretty successful.
My eight year old son, who lived in a residential treatment center
before he became ours is one of the smartest, most talented kids I
have met. He keeps up every inch with his brothers and sisters. He
is currently playing on the floor with our dogs, kissing their heads
and singing them a little song.
My six year old is the most full of love person. She loves animals
and people. If she would have ever entered school it would have been
damaging beyond words for her whole self. She lives in imagination
and delight every second.
So I guess I think unschooling is the key to success for us.
Kathleen
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: christineka@...
The thing is that my husband is unhappy with his job. He wants more
education, but since he needs to support a family of 7 he has to work
full time and therefore we have no time or money for him to get the
education he needs and wants. We already wasted money on some "get
education quick" scheme that he failed at. He never got anything out
of it.
-=-=-
You don't "get education"---"quick" or otherwise. It's a process. And
it never ends. He's learning NOW, but maybe he's not ready to see that.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm not looking for them to have overabundance. I don't want it
either. I don't want my kids to have kids on medicaid (like us) or
rely on wic as a source of food (they don't give you enough to live
on, especially if the kids are allergic to milk and peanuts). Sure
penny pinching, living frugally, learning to cook from scratch, and
cloth diapering are all worthwhile things to learn and experience.
Even humbling oneself to accept aid for a short time is okay. I don't
want them living bummer lives, being unhappy because they don't have
sufficient means to support themselves and/or a family. Neither do I
want them to make welfare a way of life.
-=-=-=-=-
Then enable them to see that they need to pursue what they love. Help
them know that the ability to learn is what will make them marketable.
Show them that you *can* be grateful for even the smallest thing.
Whatever your situation---no matter how horrible---it's not as bad as
you think. It *could* get worse. Really and truly be grateful for what
you do have. And I don't mean that in a "Pursuit of Happyness" way
(depressing movie, if you ask me!)----but that there are others
slugging through worse (several families on this list!). Be
grateful---really.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I also don't want them living off of me (like my younger brother), nor
do I want them to
spend their money unwisely so that they have none (as dh's siblings do
and dh would do if he did not have me).
-=-=-=-=-
All of you went to school, right?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It is hard to cultivate a sense of plenty when the kids and the dh are
hungry and complain every night that they hate beans.
-=-=-=--=-
Many of us understand *exactly* what you're talking about. But simply
changing the way *you* approach supper could change the way they
approach it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
My dd has asperger's. Her brain is wired differently than others.
Her play is always quite similar to whatever she did in days past.
Sge used to play a game she titled "pegasus, pegasus fly away". Now
she plays one called "Peter Pan, Peter Pan fly away". I don't know
what she actually does. She does collect bugs and she will read books
about them if I get the book from the library. She never decides she
wants any sort of book. She never asks "Why?" either.
-=-=-=-=-
There are so many Aspie kids who are unschooled. Why not ask specific
questions of parents with Aspie kids?
Get her books---all sorts. She may find others she likes.
Just because she doesn't *ask* doesn't mean she's not working through
that in her own mind.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My 5 year old is one of those competitive children who is really only
interested in being better than everyone else. She has no real
interests of her own.
-=-=-=-=-
God, I hope you're not saying that in front her her.
I bet she DOES. Maybe she's not willing to share them with you for some
reason. In order to actually BE competitive, she needs to be interested
in that one thing for at least a little while!
-=-==-
7 year old is obsessed with Peter Pan, readimg,
strings, and loves bugs and horses. She is interested enough that she
will read books about them if the books are at our house.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe back off the "obsessed" label. Let's just say she really likes
Peter Pan.
And if she will read then stock the house with books! What's the
problem?
-=-=-=-=-=-
5 year old will read a book if older sister has read it.
-=-=-=--
Cool. So she's interested in books.
-=-=-=-=-
7 year old plays with horses (the plastic kind). 5 year old will play
horses with her. The
only time 5 year old draws the line in doing what older sister does is
when she plays trains. Then 5 year old goes and plays dolls with 2
year old sister.
-=-=-=-
So she's also into horses and dolls, but not trains.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I have to admit that with 4 kids aged 2-7 and a small baby with a
house and an unhelping husband (as well as kids) I just don't have the
time to do a whole lot with the kids. My house is no where near
spotless either. In fact others would call it a pig stye. I'm
drowning in laundry, dishes, cooking, cleaning, everything... I still
have Thank You notes to write... I wish my kids would help out
without me having to yell at them. (I don't like yelling, so they
don't help.)
-=-=-=-=-
I recently taught them a new card game because they love games and I
hate having pieces all over the floor.
-=-=-=-=-
Get over that. Seriously. It's great that they have a new card game,
but could you have possibly shown them the card game just to show them
something new and fun and not because of your negative view of game
pieces???
-=-=-=-=-
They love the card game and it happens to deal with numbers and which
one is more (War). That is
okay to do then?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sure it's OK. But it would help your relationship if you did it because
you wanted to share a fun game, not because it has to do with numbers
or fewer game pieces on the floor.
-=-=-=-=-=-
The reason I ask is because A Thomas Jefferson Education seems to do
that. I'm still not quite sure because you have to buy their books to
find out more. Every time I ask the TJeders a question they tell me
to read some book or pamphlet which the public library doesn't own.
-=-=-=-=-
There are plenty of curricula out there available for purchase. No
one's selling anything here but a wonderful life with children. We
won't make you buy a thing.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I also have issues with family members always wanting updates and
such. They tell me I'm ruining my kids just by homeschooling (and
they all believe I make them do "school" every day too.)
-=-=-=-=-
You owe them nothing. They don't need "updates." Just tell everyone
that all is well in your world.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I'm failing my dd with asperger's.
-=-=-=-
How? And, if so, what are you willing to do to change that?
-=-=-=-=-
I'm sure my blind son will be at an extreme disadvantage too.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm sure a lot of parents think that, but the blind are AMAZING!
Blindness is only a disadvantage if he thinks it is. Really, it's just
a hindrance to some things. He can do BRILLIANT things! I've known many
blind people (I've raised two guide dogs, so we're active in the
community.), and they are just wonderful and can do so many different
things.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Whenever my mother visits she likes to tell the
kids they need to do their schoolwork before they can play.
-=-=-=-=-
ANd what do you say back? I'd say, "NO they don't! Play IS their
schoolwork! If you'd like to come over and enjoy your grandchildren,
fine. But don't tell them or me what they must or muct not do in their
own house."
-=-=-=-=-
Of course, my mom being a teacher only visits when her school is on
break.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I believe I'd be conveniently out of the house on "break" days.
-=-=-=-=-
I don't know why homeschoolers don't deserve such breaks.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm not sure I understand this at all. A break from what? What kind of
break are you looking for? Our whole unschooling lives are one big
break.
Do you understand unschooling? I mean, other than not pushing a
curriculum, have you read much about the philosophy? About natural
learning?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: christineka@...
The thing is that my husband is unhappy with his job. He wants more
education, but since he needs to support a family of 7 he has to work
full time and therefore we have no time or money for him to get the
education he needs and wants. We already wasted money on some "get
education quick" scheme that he failed at. He never got anything out
of it.
-=-=-
You don't "get education"---"quick" or otherwise. It's a process. And
it never ends. He's learning NOW, but maybe he's not ready to see that.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm not looking for them to have overabundance. I don't want it
either. I don't want my kids to have kids on medicaid (like us) or
rely on wic as a source of food (they don't give you enough to live
on, especially if the kids are allergic to milk and peanuts). Sure
penny pinching, living frugally, learning to cook from scratch, and
cloth diapering are all worthwhile things to learn and experience.
Even humbling oneself to accept aid for a short time is okay. I don't
want them living bummer lives, being unhappy because they don't have
sufficient means to support themselves and/or a family. Neither do I
want them to make welfare a way of life.
-=-=-=-=-
Then enable them to see that they need to pursue what they love. Help
them know that the ability to learn is what will make them marketable.
Show them that you *can* be grateful for even the smallest thing.
Whatever your situation---no matter how horrible---it's not as bad as
you think. It *could* get worse. Really and truly be grateful for what
you do have. And I don't mean that in a "Pursuit of Happyness" way
(depressing movie, if you ask me!)----but that there are others
slugging through worse (several families on this list!). Be
grateful---really.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I also don't want them living off of me (like my younger brother), nor
do I want them to
spend their money unwisely so that they have none (as dh's siblings do
and dh would do if he did not have me).
-=-=-=-=-
All of you went to school, right?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It is hard to cultivate a sense of plenty when the kids and the dh are
hungry and complain every night that they hate beans.
-=-=-=--=-
Many of us understand *exactly* what you're talking about. But simply
changing the way *you* approach supper could change the way they
approach it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
My dd has asperger's. Her brain is wired differently than others.
Her play is always quite similar to whatever she did in days past.
Sge used to play a game she titled "pegasus, pegasus fly away". Now
she plays one called "Peter Pan, Peter Pan fly away". I don't know
what she actually does. She does collect bugs and she will read books
about them if I get the book from the library. She never decides she
wants any sort of book. She never asks "Why?" either.
-=-=-=-=-
There are so many Aspie kids who are unschooled. Why not ask specific
questions of parents with Aspie kids?
Get her books---all sorts. She may find others she likes.
Just because she doesn't *ask* doesn't mean she's not working through
that in her own mind.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My 5 year old is one of those competitive children who is really only
interested in being better than everyone else. She has no real
interests of her own.
-=-=-=-=-
God, I hope you're not saying that in front her her.
I bet she DOES. Maybe she's not willing to share them with you for some
reason. In order to actually BE competitive, she needs to be interested
in that one thing for at least a little while!
-=-==-
7 year old is obsessed with Peter Pan, readimg,
strings, and loves bugs and horses. She is interested enough that she
will read books about them if the books are at our house.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe back off the "obsessed" label. Let's just say she really likes
Peter Pan.
And if she will read then stock the house with books! What's the
problem?
-=-=-=-=-=-
5 year old will read a book if older sister has read it.
-=-=-=--
Cool. So she's interested in books.
-=-=-=-=-
7 year old plays with horses (the plastic kind). 5 year old will play
horses with her. The
only time 5 year old draws the line in doing what older sister does is
when she plays trains. Then 5 year old goes and plays dolls with 2
year old sister.
-=-=-=-
So she's also into horses and dolls, but not trains.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I have to admit that with 4 kids aged 2-7 and a small baby with a
house and an unhelping husband (as well as kids) I just don't have the
time to do a whole lot with the kids. My house is no where near
spotless either. In fact others would call it a pig stye. I'm
drowning in laundry, dishes, cooking, cleaning, everything... I still
have Thank You notes to write... I wish my kids would help out
without me having to yell at them. (I don't like yelling, so they
don't help.)
-=-=-=-=-
I recently taught them a new card game because they love games and I
hate having pieces all over the floor.
-=-=-=-=-
Get over that. Seriously. It's great that they have a new card game,
but could you have possibly shown them the card game just to show them
something new and fun and not because of your negative view of game
pieces???
-=-=-=-=-
They love the card game and it happens to deal with numbers and which
one is more (War). That is
okay to do then?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sure it's OK. But it would help your relationship if you did it because
you wanted to share a fun game, not because it has to do with numbers
or fewer game pieces on the floor.
-=-=-=-=-=-
The reason I ask is because A Thomas Jefferson Education seems to do
that. I'm still not quite sure because you have to buy their books to
find out more. Every time I ask the TJeders a question they tell me
to read some book or pamphlet which the public library doesn't own.
-=-=-=-=-
There are plenty of curricula out there available for purchase. No
one's selling anything here but a wonderful life with children. We
won't make you buy a thing.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I also have issues with family members always wanting updates and
such. They tell me I'm ruining my kids just by homeschooling (and
they all believe I make them do "school" every day too.)
-=-=-=-=-
You owe them nothing. They don't need "updates." Just tell everyone
that all is well in your world.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I'm failing my dd with asperger's.
-=-=-=-
How? And, if so, what are you willing to do to change that?
-=-=-=-=-
I'm sure my blind son will be at an extreme disadvantage too.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm sure a lot of parents think that, but the blind are AMAZING!
Blindness is only a disadvantage if he thinks it is. Really, it's just
a hindrance to some things. He can do BRILLIANT things! I've known many
blind people (I've raised two guide dogs, so we're active in the
community.), and they are just wonderful and can do so many different
things.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Whenever my mother visits she likes to tell the
kids they need to do their schoolwork before they can play.
-=-=-=-=-
ANd what do you say back? I'd say, "NO they don't! Play IS their
schoolwork! If you'd like to come over and enjoy your grandchildren,
fine. But don't tell them or me what they must or muct not do in their
own house."
-=-=-=-=-
Of course, my mom being a teacher only visits when her school is on
break.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I believe I'd be conveniently out of the house on "break" days.
-=-=-=-=-
I don't know why homeschoolers don't deserve such breaks.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm not sure I understand this at all. A break from what? What kind of
break are you looking for? Our whole unschooling lives are one big
break.
Do you understand unschooling? I mean, other than not pushing a
curriculum, have you read much about the philosophy? About natural
learning?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: christineka@...
I would like to make it very clear- I do not intend to send my
children to school until they are ready for college or trade-school or
whatever higher education they want.
-=-=-=-
Why?
-=-=-=-=-=-
The trouble is deciding on how to homeschool.
I've been hanging about on a homeschooling message
board for years. When I ask for ideas on how to teach something or
other people tend to give me some curriculum I ought to use to teach
my childrem. One lady is very much against teaching math without a
curriculum because apparently you have to teach it in a certain order
so that the child won't become confused later on. Many ladies
recommend looking at the worldbook website to determine what the
children should be learning in each grade. One lady is against
children reading young because it will mess up their eyes. (I'd hate
to keep my children from reading when it is something they want,
though.) I'm just bombarded with curriculums, structured, life, and
all of that. There was an unschooler on this board for about a week
before she had been attacked to death and decided to leave. The
curriculum users have good points and so do the unschoolers. It is
difficult to decide.
-=-=-=-=-
What good points did the curriculum users have?
Nevermind. That would bog this list down.
How do *YOU* think people learn best?
-=-=-=-=-
I might also mention that I'm halfway to being crunchy and, well, I
want to make my decisions based one what I believe to be right, not
just because it fits with my newly crunchy life. (Homeschooling,
cooking from scratch, breastfeeding, cloth diapering, baby wearing,
delaying and very selectively vaccinating- perhaps non-vaxing,
homebirthing, and having a slew of kids...If only I had money I'd go
organic too.) So, I am trying to sort out what is right. Please
don't attack me as if I'm anti unschooling. I am looking for
information and trying to figure out what is right.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm not crunchy at all, yet I unschool. I can't think of *anything*
"righter" than unschooling. It just makes too much sense. I watch my
sons eagerly learn so many things. (And when my older son was in
school, I watched him learn to hate to learn---YUCK!) They grow and
learn---it just happens! It's natural. It's organic. It's how learning
works!
To keep from being attacked, I will suggest watching how you (a generic
you, not you specifically) ask questions. Also...seeing your children
in the best light possible---not "he's a failure" or "she's
lazy"---those kinds of statements tend to ignite this crowd.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: christineka@...
I would like to make it very clear- I do not intend to send my
children to school until they are ready for college or trade-school or
whatever higher education they want.
-=-=-=-
Why?
-=-=-=-=-=-
The trouble is deciding on how to homeschool.
I've been hanging about on a homeschooling message
board for years. When I ask for ideas on how to teach something or
other people tend to give me some curriculum I ought to use to teach
my childrem. One lady is very much against teaching math without a
curriculum because apparently you have to teach it in a certain order
so that the child won't become confused later on. Many ladies
recommend looking at the worldbook website to determine what the
children should be learning in each grade. One lady is against
children reading young because it will mess up their eyes. (I'd hate
to keep my children from reading when it is something they want,
though.) I'm just bombarded with curriculums, structured, life, and
all of that. There was an unschooler on this board for about a week
before she had been attacked to death and decided to leave. The
curriculum users have good points and so do the unschoolers. It is
difficult to decide.
-=-=-=-=-
What good points did the curriculum users have?
Nevermind. That would bog this list down.
How do *YOU* think people learn best?
-=-=-=-=-
I might also mention that I'm halfway to being crunchy and, well, I
want to make my decisions based one what I believe to be right, not
just because it fits with my newly crunchy life. (Homeschooling,
cooking from scratch, breastfeeding, cloth diapering, baby wearing,
delaying and very selectively vaccinating- perhaps non-vaxing,
homebirthing, and having a slew of kids...If only I had money I'd go
organic too.) So, I am trying to sort out what is right. Please
don't attack me as if I'm anti unschooling. I am looking for
information and trying to figure out what is right.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm not crunchy at all, yet I unschool. I can't think of *anything*
"righter" than unschooling. It just makes too much sense. I watch my
sons eagerly learn so many things. (And when my older son was in
school, I watched him learn to hate to learn---YUCK!) They grow and
learn---it just happens! It's natural. It's organic. It's how learning
works!
To keep from being attacked, I will suggest watching how you (a generic
you, not you specifically) ask questions. Also...seeing your children
in the best light possible---not "he's a failure" or "she's
lazy"---those kinds of statements tend to ignite this crowd.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Beth Fleming
***Thanks, Melissa, for posting this blog! Although I feel like I have some systems in place,
this woman has it together. I feel like getting more orgnanized will help all of us to feel better.
Peace,
Beth
It is hard. We lived that life (and alternatively live it now) for many years. I certainly
understand being pleased just to make it month to month, we have nine mouths to feed.
Believing in abundance is hard if you are eating beans every night. Have you read this
blog?
http://largefamilylogistics.lifewithchrist.org/
While it is a Christian blog, the woman is amazing with recipes for feeding large families
on a small budget.
Unschooling Mom to Frances (10), Will (8), Catherine (3), and Grace (14 months)
www.6uvus.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this woman has it together. I feel like getting more orgnanized will help all of us to feel better.
Peace,
Beth
It is hard. We lived that life (and alternatively live it now) for many years. I certainly
understand being pleased just to make it month to month, we have nine mouths to feed.
Believing in abundance is hard if you are eating beans every night. Have you read this
blog?
http://largefamilylogistics.lifewithchrist.org/
While it is a Christian blog, the woman is amazing with recipes for feeding large families
on a small budget.
Unschooling Mom to Frances (10), Will (8), Catherine (3), and Grace (14 months)
www.6uvus.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Genevieve Labonte
I would like to make it very clear- I do not intend to send my
children to school until they are ready for college or trade-school or
whatever higher education they want. The trouble is deciding on how
to homeschool.
***** How about homeschooling with what *you* feel is good for your
family? Having a rigid box that you need to stay in will not make your
big family happy all the time. Having different ressources for
different kids is what will work for you. If your blind child wants to
learn specific things and he needs specific tools, why not make them/
buy them for him? If your kids love to read, bring them to the library
more often. I have friends who say "I can't unschool since I'm not
comfortable doing this or that", but I know, watching them, that they
are unschoolers, but they don't listen to themselves, they listen to
that stiff box where you can't get out unless... One day, they'll find
the crack in their box and find out the real unschooler in them :-)
I might also mention that I'm halfway to being crunchy and, well, I
want to make my decisions based one what I believe to be right, not
just because it fits with my newly crunchy life. (Homeschooling,
cooking from scratch, breastfeeding, cloth diapering, baby wearing,
delaying and very selectively vaccinating- perhaps non-vaxing,
homebirthing, and having a slew of kids...If only I had money I'd go
organic too.) So, I am trying to sort out what is right. Please
don't attack me as if I'm anti unschooling. I am looking for
information and trying to figure out what is right.
Live for the simple pleasures of life, and make your children live it
with you. Answer their questions, initiate fun stuff. Make a garden,
it'll be food for the family, a way of having children close by, and
even find a passion for your 5 yo. All kids love to play in a garden,
for some it's watering the plants, for others it's watching the carrots
grow, others it's picking the ripe veggies, digging and planting,
collecting seeds. Different kids. Make a smell and touch garden for
your blind child. Build a tee-pee with branches found on in your yard
or in a nearby forest. If all the kids participate, great! If no-one
helps make it but they love play in it, the goal is attained too!
Make *your* life fun, their's will follow.
Genevieve, mom to 4 boys,
Felix-9-, Jonathan-8-, Xavier and Robin-5-
<http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
children to school until they are ready for college or trade-school or
whatever higher education they want. The trouble is deciding on how
to homeschool.
***** How about homeschooling with what *you* feel is good for your
family? Having a rigid box that you need to stay in will not make your
big family happy all the time. Having different ressources for
different kids is what will work for you. If your blind child wants to
learn specific things and he needs specific tools, why not make them/
buy them for him? If your kids love to read, bring them to the library
more often. I have friends who say "I can't unschool since I'm not
comfortable doing this or that", but I know, watching them, that they
are unschoolers, but they don't listen to themselves, they listen to
that stiff box where you can't get out unless... One day, they'll find
the crack in their box and find out the real unschooler in them :-)
I might also mention that I'm halfway to being crunchy and, well, I
want to make my decisions based one what I believe to be right, not
just because it fits with my newly crunchy life. (Homeschooling,
cooking from scratch, breastfeeding, cloth diapering, baby wearing,
delaying and very selectively vaccinating- perhaps non-vaxing,
homebirthing, and having a slew of kids...If only I had money I'd go
organic too.) So, I am trying to sort out what is right. Please
don't attack me as if I'm anti unschooling. I am looking for
information and trying to figure out what is right.
Live for the simple pleasures of life, and make your children live it
with you. Answer their questions, initiate fun stuff. Make a garden,
it'll be food for the family, a way of having children close by, and
even find a passion for your 5 yo. All kids love to play in a garden,
for some it's watering the plants, for others it's watching the carrots
grow, others it's picking the ripe veggies, digging and planting,
collecting seeds. Different kids. Make a smell and touch garden for
your blind child. Build a tee-pee with branches found on in your yard
or in a nearby forest. If all the kids participate, great! If no-one
helps make it but they love play in it, the goal is attained too!
Make *your* life fun, their's will follow.
Genevieve, mom to 4 boys,
Felix-9-, Jonathan-8-, Xavier and Robin-5-
<http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Genevieve Labonte
There's this trend here in Quebec that uses a method for maths that
start with learning < > = and then roots, squares, multiplications, and
them you learn to add and substract. So, every method has it's good and
bad. It's like parenting books, you'll find one for your style whether
your really unschoolish, or you want one to justify the strap. There's
one for everyone. Everyone is different and some methods are better for
some people than another method. Go with what you feel is good for your
children.!!!
Genevieve, mom to 4 boys,
Felix-9-, Jonathan-8-, Xavier and Robin-5-
<http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS>
The lady in question would undoubtedly be insulted if she saw this,
but I have to suggest that while she may be very competent in
textbook-style arithmetic and balancing her checkbook, I doubt she
really understands mathematics.
If you view math as learning a series of algorithms (add the first
column, carry the one, etc.) then she might be right -- everything has
to be learned in a certain order. However, that's not math! Math is
playing with value and relationships and patterns and figuring out new
ways to solve problems. And that is better learned without a textbook
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
start with learning < > = and then roots, squares, multiplications, and
them you learn to add and substract. So, every method has it's good and
bad. It's like parenting books, you'll find one for your style whether
your really unschoolish, or you want one to justify the strap. There's
one for everyone. Everyone is different and some methods are better for
some people than another method. Go with what you feel is good for your
children.!!!
Genevieve, mom to 4 boys,
Felix-9-, Jonathan-8-, Xavier and Robin-5-
<http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS>
The lady in question would undoubtedly be insulted if she saw this,
but I have to suggest that while she may be very competent in
textbook-style arithmetic and balancing her checkbook, I doubt she
really understands mathematics.
If you view math as learning a series of algorithms (add the first
column, carry the one, etc.) then she might be right -- everything has
to be learned in a certain order. However, that's not math! Math is
playing with value and relationships and patterns and figuring out new
ways to solve problems. And that is better learned without a textbook
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]