Erin

Hi! I found this list while searching frantically for curriculums
after pulling my son out of second grade in public school. I thought
I was using positive parenting until I started reading these groups
and now I realize that I nag, coerce, bribe, praise, reward, and
punish and attempt to control my kids pretty much all day long. Oops!

But my intention since they were born was to parent them respectfully.
I did a much better job of that when they were very small and I am
working hard to return to being the parent I want to be. I'm
practicing saying yes, which is a great relief to them and to me. It
was hard to let my daughter dig the ashes out of the fireplace and
dump them all on the hearth but you know what? She had a blast for
almost an hour and it took all of ten minutes to clean the whole mess up!

But we're all really struggling with sibling squabbles. My daughter
is four and she has a lot of explosions. She was having a meltdown
almost every night at bedtime...screaming, kicking, biting and
scratching me. So ok, no more bedtime, problem solved! But it's not
that easy when her brother's interests are at stake too. I've read
the Explosive Child and Siblings without Rivalry and I'm still at a
loss how to say yes to both of them when they both want to watch
different things on the same tv at the same time. I feel forced to
choose sides several times a day because if I just let them work
things out my son invariably has to be the one to give in or he gets
hurt because she flies into a violent rage. I prevent outbursts in
every way I can think of..keeping them entertained, having the
discussions recommended in Explosive Child and working out strategies
with her to deal with her anger, and modeling calm, gentle behavior.

Now part of what's bothering her might be my past attempts to control
her, maybe it will just take her some time to trust me not to do her
that way anymore and to find better ways to control herself. But in
the meantime how do I keep them from hurting each other without making
my son feel like he has to walk on eggshells around her? How do I get
through this while making both children feel respected and valued? I
know I must be missing a piece of the puzzle...someone please tell me
what it is?

cookskidsbooks

Erin,

I can totally relate to your youngest dd controlling the oldest. My
dd is like that with her older brothers. I think she feels out of
control because she is the youngest & wants to be included and she is
the only girl. Therefore, not quite the same situation as you. With
3 kids, I find myself, making schedules of whose turn it is to do
what. Since they all want equal time with tv, computer, mom & dad,
etc. and of course, they want the particular thing at the same time.

Now I am very new to the idea of unschooling - I understand the basic
premise, but haven't had time to read much about how to implement it.
So, my idea of taking turns of course, was MY idea, not theirs.
However, most of the time they seem to be ok with it. Also, when I
ask my oldest ds what he thinks we should do about the situation, he
often comes back with a similar thought to mine.

[my ds are over 3 yrs apart & dd is 2 1/2 yrs younger than 2nd ds;
oldest ds is 1 1/2 months shy of being 6 yrs older that dd]

As to the letting them work it out, I have not been one to do this. I
feel that if there is a big age discrepancy, then this isn't possible
until the younger sibling has the skills TO work it out. In our house
the older ds always gets his way, if I don't step in. Within the past
year, however, our younger ds seems to be more able to fend for
himself. They both still want me to intervene (probably because I
always did). Often, I tell them they both were at fault and need to
work it out or the TV, computer, etc. will be turned off. As to
fighting, last spring a counselor suggested to me that we send the
boys outside to work out their differences. It was hard for me at
first, but I kept an eye/ear on the situation where they didn't see.
It didn't take them long to get over the original problem, but I
noticed that my older ds was antagonizing my younger ds (they were 9
yr & 6 yr at the time). I felt like this was confirming my idea that
they weren't old enough to work out their differences. The counselor
said to leave the antoginizer outside, until he was calm and let the
other boy come back in. OK, I think I got a little OT...

My 4 yr old dd responds well to time-out. By that, I mean, she goes
to it and stays there for her 4 min. She seems calmer & apologetic
afterward and I talk with her about how we don't hit, bite, etc.
because it hurts. She needs to use her words, etc. or come to me. I
am not sure if this method truly gives her time to calm down or if she
is learning not to express her anger. I hope it is the former. Again,
I truly believe she is too young to just "work it out" without
guidance from an adult.

Gail
Wife to Rob & Mom to Sam (10.75), Ricky (7.5), Veronica (nearly 5)


Erin wrote:
> But we're all really struggling with sibling squabbles. My daughter
> is four and she has a lot of explosions. ....

I'm still at a loss how to say yes to both of them when they both
want to watch different things on the same tv at the same time. I
feel forced to choose sides several times a day because if I just let
them work things out my son invariably has to be the one to give in or
he gets hurt because she flies into a violent rage. ...

> Now part of what's bothering her might be my past attempts to
control her, maybe it will just take her some time to trust me not to
do her that way anymore and to find better ways to control herself.
But in the meantime how do I keep them from hurting each other without
making my son feel like he has to walk on eggshells around her? How
do I get through this while making both children feel respected and
valued?

Rachel Salavon

Time outs don't work. Sorry to be so blunt. But they are a
temporary solution in the parent's best interest. Have you read
Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn? I would suggest it and an
article on his website about the problems with the Super Nanny.
Time out is a term that was coined in the fifties when scientists
were doing tests on mice. It basically means time out from love or
love withdrawal. It can create many of the situations that you are
trying to solve by using time outs.

I stopped using timeouts with my children a couple of years ago.
Things got pretty crazy around here for a while. My DH and I had to
find a new way to take care of problems. Books that helped us:
Parent Effectiveness Training by Thomas Gordon, Raising Our
Children, Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort, The Drama of the Gifted
Child by Alice Miller, Punished By Rewards by Alfie Kohn, anything
by John Holt. And on my personal journey, Loving What Is by Byron
Katie.

I would type more but my children need me.
Rachel (mother to Zane 7, Caleb 5, and Greta and Carmen 2)


--- In [email protected], "cookskidsbooks"
<gailkcook@...> wrote:
>
>
> My 4 yr old dd responds well to time-out. By that, I mean, she
goes
> to it and stays there for her 4 min. She seems calmer & apologetic
> afterward and I talk with her about how we don't hit, bite, etc.
> because it hurts. She needs to use her words, etc. or come to
me. I
> am not sure if this method truly gives her time to calm down or if
she
> is learning not to express her anger. I hope it is the former.
Again,
> I truly believe she is too young to just "work it out" without
> guidance from an adult.
>
> Gail
> Wife to Rob & Mom to Sam (10.75), Ricky (7.5), Veronica (nearly 5)
>
>
> Erin wrote:
>>

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Erin" <jmem@...> wrote:
>My daughter
> is four and she has a lot of explosions. She was having a meltdown
> almost every night at bedtime...screaming, kicking, biting and
> scratching me. So ok, no more bedtime, problem solved! But it's
not
> that easy when her brother's interests are at stake too. I've read
> the Explosive Child and Siblings without Rivalry and I'm still at a
> loss how to say yes to both of them

Here's a link to Danielle Conger's page on "Parenting a Spirited
Child" - she has three kids, so working out sibling issues with a
really intense kid is something she knows about, too:

http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited.html

>I'm still at a
> loss how to say yes to both of them when they both want to watch
> different things on the same tv at the same time.

Maybe you only intended this as an example, but if tv really is a
big issue every day, getting a second tv is definately something to
consider, even if the second one is much smaller. Yard sale season
is coming - a great time to look into this solution!

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "cookskidsbooks"
<gailkcook@...> wrote:
>> As to the letting them work it out, I have not been one to do
this. I
> feel that if there is a big age discrepancy, then this isn't
possible
> until the younger sibling has the skills TO work it out.

Absolutely. Unschooling isn't about "letting kids work it out" with
no help at all - kids need plenty of assistance figuring out this
big, crazy world, full of complicated Others. Some kids (some
people!) are really good at working out solutions to problems with
others, but most need some help negotiating and problem solving. My
5yo is often very capable of suggesting solutions to disputes with
other kids, but not at hearing their solutions! So she needs help
with that part, still.

> They both still want me to intervene (probably because I
> always did). Often, I tell them they both were at fault and need
to
> work it out or the TV, computer, etc. will be turned off.

Hmmmm. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of telling people they
are "at fault" for lacking skills or needing help. While I'm sure
your guys are learning not to ask for help, its clear that they
still need it - they are asking for your input. There are options
besides intervening, and disempowering them one way, and leaving
them to fend for themselves, which disempowers them another way.

It takes time and work and practice to learn to facilitate problem
solving - but it is possible to bring the kids into the learning
process with you. Talk with them about wanting to learn how to
figure out these kinds of disputes *better* - not in the sense
of "you guys need to learn this" but "Hey, I'd like us all to get
along better but I'm having trouble learning how to do that..." Thus
you become their partner, rather than their teacher.

> My 4 yr old dd responds well to time-out. By that, I mean, she
goes
> to it and stays there for her 4 min. She seems calmer & apologetic
> afterward and I talk with her about how we don't hit, bite, etc.
> because it hurts. She needs to use her words, etc. or come to
me. I
> am not sure if this method truly gives her time to calm down or if
she
> is learning not to express her anger.

This so much depends on the kid - my dd goes away from people when
she is upset to cool down. She always has, even as a baby she would
turn away and prefer to be put down. But that's *her* natural
tendency, not something I've imposed on her. My experience with my
stepson, when he lived with us as a child, was that time-outs led
him to stuff down his feelings, rather than deal with them. I don't
recommend it. Punishment is seductive, bc kids do change their
*behavior* as a result, but also shuts down communication big time,
no matter how much we talk about feelings and solutions afterwards.

The biggest overall solution I've found to handling disputes between
kids, siblings and others, is to be more present with the kids. It
means finding other ways to meet some of my own needs, especially in
the short term, but it also means much more consensual interactions,
and that's worth a lot to me.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

cookskidsbooks

Rachel,

Of course, I always viewed time out as time to get away from a
situation to think about solutions, etc. Not sure if a 4 yr old
really does that.

Thanks for the book suggestions, I will definitely check those out.

Gail

Wife to Rob and Mom to Sam (10.75), Ricky (7.5), Veronica (nearly 5)


...It (time-out) basically means time out from love or love withdrawal.

... Books that helped us:
> Parent Effectiveness Training by Thomas Gordon, Raising Our
> Children, Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort, The Drama of the Gifted
> Child by Alice Miller, Punished By Rewards by Alfie Kohn, anything
> by John Holt. And on my personal journey, Loving What Is by Byron
> Katie.
>
> I would type more but my children need me.
> Rachel (mother to Zane 7, Caleb 5, and Greta and Carmen 2)
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "cookskidsbooks"
> <gailkcook@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > My 4 yr old dd responds well to time-out. By that, I mean, she
> goes
> > to it and stays there for her 4 min. She seems calmer & apologetic
> > afterward and I talk with her about how we don't hit, bite, etc.
> > because it hurts. She needs to use her words, etc. or come to
> me. I
> > am not sure if this method truly gives her time to calm down or if
> she
> > is learning not to express her anger. I hope it is the former.
> Again,
> > I truly believe she is too young to just "work it out" without
> > guidance from an adult.
> >
> > Gail
> > Wife to Rob & Mom to Sam (10.75), Ricky (7.5), Veronica (nearly 5)
> >
> >
> > Erin wrote:
> >>
>

Rachel Salavon

Yes, I am fortunate to have a child who did not respond to time
outs. He really helped me search for alternatives. My second DS (5)
would fall on the ground and scream and cry and refuse to go to time
out. Then he would refuse to stay there screaming and crying the
whole time. He would hit me. He was very threatened by the whole
thing. And it never worked to calm him down. I am so glad we don't
have those battles anymore.

I grew up in an authoritarian home where we were spanked. So to me,
TO were a milder, more acceptable form of punishment. But even my
oldest DS who seemed to respond well to TO built up a lot of anger
and resentment and insecurity that we are still working through.
Having no punishment seemed scarey at first. I was afraid I would
lose control. Now I'm so glad I did lose control. Because it was
just an illusion of control anyway.

Naomi Aldort talks about punishment in her book. She says any
behavior a child has that we think is wrong or bad, represents an
unmet need. Putting a stop to that behavior doesn't address that
unmet need. So it shows up somewhere else -- like crying over every
little thing or aggression or fears or all kinds of things that many
people say are normal parts of childhood. Ironically some of those
things are what we put children into TO for.

My second DS is much calmer these days. He has even learned to
verbalize his feelings. He still has times when he sets his mind on
something and nothing on God's green earth will change it. I listen
to him if he needs to cry or talk about it. I do what I can to help
him meet his needs. When there is nothing that can be done to make
him happy, I tell him I will listen to him if he needs to talk or
cry about it. My oldest son has responded well to just talking and
being honest. He still tries to hurt his brother. When they have
an argument, I stand very close in case I need to get between them.
I tried just letting them work it out, but my oldest was too
aggressive and my younger ds will take a beating from him rather
than give in. I don't let them fight it out anymore. Inevitably
someone gets hit or kicked occasionally but I think it hurts their
feelings more than anything else. I try to stay out of the argument
as much as possible. With my 2 year olds I try to put words to what
they are screaming at each other about. Sometimes just hearing what
the other person is trying to communicate helps them solve their own
problem. I occasionally do this with the older kids too. Their
arguments can get loud and sound horrible but it only lasts for a
short time. It's not long before they figure out something that
works for them and happily move along.

I just wanted to elaborate on my previous post. It was rushed and
may have sounded insensitive. I have so much respect for every
mother out there who has the courage to try and do something better
for their family. And I know it can feel vulnerable to put your
personal story on the list for comment and advice.

Peace and love, Rachel (unschooling mother of 4)

--- In [email protected], "cookskidsbooks"
<gailkcook@...> wrote:
>
> Rachel,
>
> Of course, I always viewed time out as time to get away from a
> situation to think about solutions, etc. Not sure if a 4 yr old
> really does that.
>
> Thanks for the book suggestions, I will definitely check those out.
>
> Gail
>
> Wife to Rob and Mom to Sam (10.75), Ricky (7.5), Veronica (nearly
5)

Erin

> Here's a link to Danielle Conger's page on "Parenting a Spirited
> Child" - she has three kids, so working out sibling issues with a
> really intense kid is something she knows about, too:
>
> http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited.html

Thank you, wow what a wonderful site!

> Maybe you only intended this as an example, but if tv really is a
> big issue every day, getting a second tv is definately something to
> consider, even if the second one is much smaller. Yard sale season
> is coming - a great time to look into this solution!

We do have a second tv, but it's not in a family area and so they both
want the family tv. Sometimes I think it's more about winning than it
is about the tv (or whatever the argument is about) anyway.
Sometimes, but not always...sometimes they just want to be near us
when they're watching...maybe I oughta move the other tv and get
headphones, that could work.

Thanks to everyone for the input, all of the advice is appreciated and
the encouragement really helps to keep plodding through until we get
to a more peaceful place.

Melissa

Rotfl...yes, my second child taught me a lot about parenting, and how traditional parenting
does not work with untraditional kids! When I'm struggling with harder behaviors, I
remember to say a mantra of thanks, because without this we'd still be spanking and no'ing
and time outing. :-)

Just because it *worked* with the other kids does not make it appropriate, yes? My kids too
have some leftover issues from that...and me as well.

However, the other day the girls came running up to me and asked for a treat of some sort, I
don't recall. They had been asking for things all morning, food, games, art supplies. When I
said 'well, sure, help yourselves', they groaned and yelled "NO! You're supposed to say NO!"
Apparently they had just finished a Captain Underpants book and you were supposed to do
something to get in trouble. That was interesting.

Melissa
--- In [email protected], "Rachel Salavon" <rachelsalavon@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, I am fortunate to have a child who did not respond to time
> outs. He really helped me search for alternatives.