Kimberly Hays Grow

>Why do you want to be an unschooler?

>I am sometimes afraid that people who are just so burned out by the stress
>of schooling and parenting and other of life's challenges, come to
>unschooling because they believe they won't have to do as much.

This was a hard one for me. I had to really put my thinking cap on. When I first started with unschooling, I really thought that it would be easier, for myself and my kids. Probably why I thought that I was taking the lazy way out. Now that I have been doing it about a month or so, I have learned more about unschooling, from groups like this and reading a lot of books and articles about unschooling. I really and truly believe that children will learn more and have a better education if they are left to their own devices. If I try to push it on them they resist and don't learn. I still have concerns especially about my son. He never leaves the house except to go to the neighbors once in a while. He won't go to the library or any of the other places that we (my daughter's and I) go. They seem so much more open to the concept and I feel that they are learning all kinds of things. Left to pick out the books that they want to look at instead of the ones that I think are important has opened up a whole new world for them. I am becoming so much more involved, and I thought that I was involved before. We have been without a car for the last week or so and we have walked to the library and the post office several times, along the way my daughter discovered animal tracks in the snow, so we have been having fun learning about the different kinds of tracks that can be found in town (where we live) versus out in the country (where grandma lives). I have been reading to them every day and I we are spending so much time playing board games. however, my son never joins us on our adventures and playing with the family. I worry about him a lot. I am having a much harder time trusting that he will learn anything on his own. I would welcome any and all advice that you good people could offer. I am always anxious to figure out how to do life better.

Thanks,
Kimberly








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plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Kimberly Hays Grow"
<khaysgrow@...> wrote:
> however, my son never joins us on our adventures and playing with
>the family. I worry about him a lot. I am having a much harder
>time trusting that he will learn anything on his own. I would
>welcome any and all advice that you good people could offer. I am
>always anxious to figure out how to do life better.

I have a different perspective, on reading your post, which is that
your girls are not "learning on their own" but learning and
exploring along *with* you. The trouble is, you don't have the same
sorts of things in common with your guy, so you're floundering. I
can relate to that, to an extent. My stepson and I don't have a lot
of interests in common, and some days that's frustrating. I feel
like I have to work a Lot harder to connect with him than I do with
my dd.

That's something I've been working on, though. I mean really making
a concious effort to *see* his interests and value them *as* his
interests. And then look for ways to connect. We talk about that a
Lot, too. I ask him questions about things he's doing and then go do
some online research to find out more - how can I help facilitate
this interest. How can I at least have more meaningful conversations
on the subject, rather than always saying "okay, what's that, again?"

Wikipedia is great for this - it even has the plots and characters
of tv shows and descriptions of games! Its soooooo cool! It's been
really helpful for me.

Take the time to learn to play at least one of his games. Sit and
watch enough of all of them to get an idea which *you* would most
enjoy. Go online and read about all of them - there will be things
you miss, so go do some research so you can ask him meaningful
questions. Get an idea of the different *kinds* of games out there
so you can help him find more that he likes - and more that you
like, too.

If your girls wanted you to read a story to them that you didn't
really like, would you read it? If they enjoyed a board game that
you didn't, would you play it? If they wanted to identify animals by
their scat, instead of tracks, would you carry the baggies?

Don't cut your son out of your life just because he has different
interests. Expand your own mind and life to make room for him.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Kimberly Hays Grow

>I have a different perspective, on reading your post, which is that
>your girls are not "learning on their own" but learning and
>exploring along *with* you. The trouble is, you don't have the same
>sorts of things in common with your guy, so you're floundering.

Meredith,

What you are saying makes so much sense! My son is really into skateboarding and plays a skateboarding game on X-Box, on gameboy and even makes his own skateboards and accessories out of cardboard. We have to go to the store once a week or so to find this kid some cardboard. I try to take an interest in it and I always ask what he is up to and the like. I just don't get it. He likes to play on his own, I'm not sure he would even let me play with him. I will definitely give that a try tomorrow. I am pretty crafty, maybe I can make a skateboard out of cardboard too. LOL Whenever I am out somewhere I always try to find him something skateboard related. I got him a magazine and he loved that. We will probably get a subscription. I also got him a book from the library that he enjoyed a lot. He spends time on the computer researching it. I guess he will learn a lot from all of that somehow. Just because he isn't doing something that "I" think is educational, doesn't mean it isn't valid to him. This is why I love unschooling! He is free to be himself. Now if I can just get it too!

Thanks for all the feedback. It really helps!

Kimberly


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Ren Allen

~~>I am sometimes afraid that people who are just so burned out by the
stress of schooling and parenting and other of life's challenges,
come to unschooling because they believe they won't have to do as much.~~


Well, you definitely do a LOT some days (others not-so-much) when
unschooling.....but I think realizing that schooling doesn't work is a
great place to begin unschooling!! Burned out people suddenly
realizing that they don't have to create all that stress in order for
their children to learn is GREAT.

I DO think unschooling is easier. It's a LOT easier to go with the
flow of nature than to cause constant friction over schoolwork. Just
like it's easier to garden with native species and permaculture in
mind, it's easier to grow kids naturally!;)

I think unschooling is very Zen-like that way....it's all about going
with the flow of what IS, rather than trying to create what you think
"should be". That's a helluva lot easier and more peaceful than the
other options. But it doesn't mean you can kick back and ignore your
kids (that's not really going with the flow either is it?).

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Jackie Lazzaro

My 8yo asked me this morning if she could see newborn kittens and puppies.
We have cats, but we've always gotten them at 8 wks or so. My cats are
fixed, so we won't be having any litters here. lol!

I would like to take her somewhere so she could see cats or dogs having
their litters, but I have no idea where to go to do something like this.
Has anyone here done anything like this, or have any suggestions?

Thx!

:-)

Jackie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jackie Lazzaro

I started hs'g my 10 yo at the beg of the year. She is a self motivated
person, so I never questioned her ability to find things that interested her
and learn more about them. She already had a clear list of interests -
natural disasters, weather, astronomy to name a few. My dh was totally on
board w/teaching her at home, since it would give her so much more freedom
in choose what to study and at what level.

On to my 8yo. The school wanted her to repeat 1st grade because her reading
level didn't change much from the beginning to the end of 1st grade.
Instead, we had her tested and were told that she has a reading disability.
She needed a "multi-sensory" approach to reading. We went back to the
school, told them we would put her into a private reading program and that
they needed to put her into 2nd grade. Turned out to be far and away the
right decision. Now she is in 3rd. She is still taking the private reading
classes (it's like a sylvan center), and is getting a's and b's in reading.

Now that I have been hs'g my older dd, I am beginning to think that I could
do a fine job of helping my younger dd learn to read. Has anyone been
successful w/unschooling in this situation? If so, can you tell me how you
approached it with the child? My dh is sceptical that I can teach her,
because he sees how she fights doing homework. I think that not having to
spend 6hrs a day in school, then come home to a ton of homework at night,
will create a completely different situation. One where she can sit and
read the books she wants. If she asks me why something is spelled that way,
or written that way, etc, we can investigate it together. Am I on the right
track? And if so, can you give me any suggestions I can use to help dh
understand why this would be a good choice to make.

TIA.

:-)

Jackie


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plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Kimberly Hays Grow"
<khaysgrow@...> wrote:
>I am pretty crafty, maybe I can make a skateboard out of cardboard
too.

One thing I've been doing with my stepson is helping him make stencils
for spray-painting different designs on his boards. That's fun for
both of us. Its pretty simple to make stencils with posterboard. About
a week ago we image-searched "skull" and variations on that theme and
found some basic designs we could work from. Lots of fun, and it gave
us a chance to talk about intellectual property rights and copyright
infringement. And we got to see some Great tatoos ;)

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Christy Mahoney

Jackie, to answer your question quickly - yes. Yes, I have 2
daughters who have both learned to read without my teaching them. I
don't know how familiar you are with unschooling, but this is the
essence - kids learn without being taught. If you check out any of
the links on this site, I would highly recommend Sandra Dodd's site
and the Joyfully Rejoycing site for loads of anecdotes about
learning to read.

As far as how I approached it, I just answered their questions and
read to them, whether it was books or video games or signs or stuff
on the computer or board game boxes or DVD cases or names on the
globe or food packages or cleaning products - you get the idea. My
oldest daughter discovered closed captioning on the TV years ago and
has always loved to have it on ever since. That helped my younger
daughter learn to read as well.

I can't tell you what your daughter's learning to read will look
like, but if she is fighting homework and sees learning to read as
something to resist, it will likely be more difficult. My daughters
have never had homework to fight about, and learning to read was an
entirely natural and enjoyable process that happened because they
wanted to know what things said.

-Christy M.

>
> Now that I have been hs'g my older dd, I am beginning to think
that I could
> do a fine job of helping my younger dd learn to read. Has anyone
been
> successful w/unschooling in this situation? If so, can you tell
me how you
> approached it with the child? My dh is sceptical that I can teach
her,
> because he sees how she fights doing homework. I think that not
having to
> spend 6hrs a day in school, then come home to a ton of homework at
night,
> will create a completely different situation. One where she can
sit and
> read the books she wants. If she asks me why something is spelled
that way,
> or written that way, etc, we can investigate it together. Am I on
the right
> track? And if so, can you give me any suggestions I can use to
help dh
> understand why this would be a good choice to make.
>
> TIA.
>
> :-)
>
> Jackie
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

frozenandcold

<<<<Has anyone been
successful w/unschooling in this situation? If so, can you tell me
how you
approached it with the child?>>>>

My ds is 11 1/2 and just barely reading. We chose to step back and
let it naturally happen. I had an advantage in that my sister,
Ren's, son didn't learn to read until 12 and you wouldn't know now
that he didn't learn at 6. He is 13. My son learned how to read
(and is still learning harder words) by playing Runescape, World of
Warcraft, and other games. I sit with him by the hours and read the
captions to him and just in the last month he is reading them on his
own. Through the process he asks what letters make which sounds,
which combinations, words that aren't phonetic at all that he has to
just memorize, etc. It has been amazing watching the process. Yes,
it is exhausting to me at times, when I am in the middle of
something and every five minutes I hear, "Mom, will you read this?
Hurry, it disappears if you wait too long. Hurry, my character is
going to die!!" But I try to be as patient as possible and he is
reading without frustration (well, sometimes a little) and without
shame from the school system because oh my gosh!!, he is so old to
just be learning how to read!


Heidi

Kimberly Hays Grow

>One thing I've been doing with my stepson is helping him make stencils
>for spray-painting different designs on his boards.

Thanks for the great idea. We will definitely be trying that. Eventually he will get a real board for him. He really wants to get the parts so that he can design his own. he is trying to figure out how to get a piece of wood to turn up at the ends so he can make that into a skateboard. He is very inventive.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Katharine Wise

My oldest son was almost 10 when he learned how to read, and the lack of shame was one of the most awesome features of unschooling him.

I'm sure that if he'd been in school he'd have been diagnosed with a learning disability because, in his case, it was clear to me that it wasn't simply lack of interest but lack of certain "pre-reading" skills. He didn't get the concept of rhyming or any sense of phonetic connection until shortly before he taught himself to read. For instance, he enjoyed playing I Spy but we had to stick to visual clues, "I spy something red (or round)." I couldn't say, "I spy something that begins with the letter 'B' (or the sound /b/)." He also had some speech delays.

However, not being in school or "schooled", he just asked when he needed to know what something said or how to write something. He had no sense of self-consciousness about it, even when we were in public. (I have to confess, however, that I sometimes had to squelch my own self-consciousness!) The summer my oldest was 9 he went to karate camp. It never occurred to me that he'd have any reason to read or write there, but I was a little early picking him up on the 3rd or 4th day and saw the instructor handing out journals to the students and telling them what he wanted them to write about. (They were more evaluations for the dojo's use than journals, really, as he wanted them to write what their favorite activities were.) I felt awful that I had put ds in that situation without letting the teacher know. But my son raised his hand, and since this was the 3rd or 4th day they already knew what he needed, and one of the junior black-belts went over and spelled out each word
for him. I casually asked my son about it later, and he said that on the first day he just asked for help spelling the words. It was clear it hadn't bothered him at all.

Katharine

----- Original Message ----

But I try to be as patient as possible and he is

reading without frustration (well, sometimes a little) and without

shame from the school system because oh my gosh!!, he is so old to

just be learning how to read!













____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html

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Marieke Willis

--- Christy Mahoney <unschooling1@...> wrote:
> My oldest daughter discovered closed captioning on the TV years ago
> and has always loved to have it on ever since.

It's probably nothing, but it could be that she has a mild hearing
problem? I'd ask her whether she just happens to like to read the
captions, or whether it makes it easier for her to follow what they're
saying on TV.

Marieke, who at last checkup (at 15yo) scored at the average hearing
level of a 75yo... just not bad enough to do something about, other
than turn the subtitles on when watching movies.



____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html

Melissa

Jackie,
I just wanted to let you know that you are on the right track. We're unschooling our gang,
and my biggest fear was my (at the time 8yo) daughter who has autism. I was worried
about routine, about learning since there is a difficulty in learning from the environment
with this disability. In fact, that's why we started with a school at home approach (which
was okay, but certainly not fun)

But the truth is that the freedom has allowed her the ability to cope with all the learning
troubles, and learn IN HER WAY. She's functionally nonverbal, we didn't know how she
understood things. She didn't have trouble learning, what she had trouble with was
learning in a manner that suited everyone else. WIth unschooling, she went from not
reading to reading and answering questions in books that she loves. She's adding money,
which is complicated math, decimals and percentages for taxes etc.

I couldn't possibly tell you how to help your dh. I was very lucky in that we came to
unschooling through me being on bedrest with the baby. SO we thought we'd take a few
months off from home 'schooling', and lo and behold, everyone was happier and we could
see them learning. It was like watching the quicktime version of a flower blooming, just
right before our eyes. there was no incentive to turn back!! Josh and Bre (my two auties)
were a little slower to deschool, but they did it and our life is great.

I hope this helps encourage you, even if it only answers half of the questions you asked ;-)
The short question even!

--- In [email protected], "Jackie Lazzaro" <jlazztoo@...> wrote:
Am I on the right
> track? And if so, can you give me any suggestions I can use to help dh
> understand why this would be a good choice to make.
>

Deb Lewis

***I think unschooling is very Zen-like that way....it's all about going
with the flow of what IS, rather than trying to create what you think
"should be". ***

That's wonderful for people who are Zen like. <g> That's true for
people who have some understanding of unschooling. But there are people who
think unschooling will free up their time to do what they want while their
kids somehow "educate" themselves. The mom who said she didn't feel that
unschooling parents need to be able to provide a life for their kids that
was *at least* as interesting as school worries me.

The flow of "What is" for some people is depressed mom, disinterested mom,
burned out mom, not providing opportunities or activities for kids.
The "flow" in a home where a mom is stressed or burned out is not
necessarily a healthy flow leading to joy and happy exploration. While I
don't know of any way we can or even should,
(or have any responsibility to) assess the mental or emotional health of a
mom coming to unschooling I
believe some people are not understanding what really is involved in
unschooling . A mom who watches a child gain unhealthy amounts of weight,
fifty or sixty pounds, and can attribute it to stress in the home and
inactivity, and THEN wonders what she can possibly do, does not understand
unschooling. A flow like that is a sucking undertow and not anything like
the beautiful, natural happiness many of us know unschooling to be.

I would not have been able to bear the kind of life we could have chosen by
sending Dylan to school ten years ago. I could not bear to fight with him
over bed time and waking up time and dinner time and homework time and
grades the way I've seen other family members and friends fight with their
kids. I wouldn't have had the energy or heart for that. Unschooling has
been easy for us but not because I left Dylan alone to fend for himself
while I did what I wanted. It's been easy because I believed he wanted an
interesting life and I helped him. I believed that's how people should
live - finding and doing what interests them and helping other family
members do the same. In a healthy home where parents understand
unschooling it does seem easy and natural. But people from healthy
situations
aren't the only ones coming to unschooling.

Being involved with a kid who has chosen to do a thing he loves, helping him
in the pursuit of an interest, is not stressful in the way that being
involved with a kid who has no choice about what a teacher and/or parent is
forcing on him is, but both require our time and energy and unschooling
maybe more so because there's no school, or teacher, or special ed class, to
take up the slack, or to blame if we give up, or flake out, and let the kid
flounder.

I think the question "Am I taking the lazy way out?" is a really good
question for parents to ask themselves. If they don't understand that
unschooling will mean their active involvement, time, energy, money in
helping their kids do what they want, then they need more and better
information about unschooling. If they think unschooling will mean an
easier life for themselves while their kids are essentially left on their
own then they need more information. Because really, if the answer is, "I
don't want to be bothered much by kids," or "I want time to do my own
thing," then unschooling is not a good choice.

I think most people who've been on these lists awhile have seen new people
come and write something like...: "I've read all the books and looked at all
the websites and I love the idea of unschooling but how will they learn
their multiplication tables?" I am wondering what we might do better to
help new people understand the foundation. We're good at helping
them implement unschooling ideas in specific real life situations. I still
sometimes feel we're missing something big. If someone seriously read all
the books, read all the John Holt books, and STILL doesn't understand that
memorizing multiplication tables is a construct of school and has NO bearing
on whether a person will be able to multiply or divide when he needs to,
then
I'm not sure if what we're writing can get into their heads in a way that
makes sense. If someone has read all the information at
say, Sandra Dodd's site, and still doesn't know that a stress filled home
with little or no activities and stress induced ill health is not
unschooling - - what then?

Some large percentage of people coming to these lists get it, and live it,
and unschooling will blossom for them. Because I've had two personal emails
in the last week from people who seem so very much NOT to get it, in spite
of claiming to have "read all the books" I am wondering whether there are
some things we need to address more often on the list. I wonder whether it
is so natural to those of us who've been living it for years that we not
paying enough attention to the fact it's not at all natural to someone who's
just pulling an unhappy kid out of school and wondering "what next?"

Deb Lewis

Christy Mahoney

She has very good hearing. However, it does help her follow what's
going on sometimes, especially if people are talking really fast or
have accents. She also loves musicals, and I must admit it's really
nice to have the lyrics on the screen. Even with good hearing it
can be hard to understand a lot of what is said on TV. Maybe not
kids' shows, but dh and I like "Scrubs" and sometimes they talk
REALLY fast.

-Christy M.

> It's probably nothing, but it could be that she has a mild hearing
> problem? I'd ask her whether she just happens to like to read the
> captions, or whether it makes it easier for her to follow what
they're
> saying on TV.
>
> Marieke, who at last checkup (at 15yo) scored at the average
hearing
> level of a 75yo... just not bad enough to do something about, other
> than turn the subtitles on when watching movies.
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_______________
> Don't pick lemons.
> See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
>

Danielle Conger

Deb Lewis wrote:
>
> I would not have been able to bear the kind of life we could have
> chosen by
> sending Dylan to school ten years ago. I could not bear to fight with him
> over bed time and waking up time and dinner time and homework time and
> grades the way I've seen other family members and friends fight with their
> kids. I wouldn't have had the energy or heart for that. Unschooling has
> been easy for us but not because I left Dylan alone to fend for himself
> while I did what I wanted. It's been easy because I believed he wanted an
> interesting life and I helped him. I believed that's how people should
> live - finding and doing what interests them and helping other family
> members do the same.
>

I read here pretty regularly, though I don't always keep up with the
threads. Interestingly, I'd written an article a couple months back
about the whole "authoritative" vs. "authoritarian" parenting labels;
then came along a similar thread here at UB, so I followed that one
pretty closely.

This post really sparked for me a realization of what might be meant by
the whole "permissive" label and why it gets such a bad rap.

As I was reading Deb's post, I had this "aha" moment of that's what
"permissive" parents are--those who can't bear to do all of that, but
feel like there isn't any choice. So, they go about enforcing all of
those things half-heartedly without any real buy-in, which explains why
it looks so bad from a mainstream p.o.v. Of course, the kids, then,
pick up on those mixed messages, so no one's really sure what to do
because they're living a life that feels wrong with someone outside them
all pulling the puppet strings.

--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (8), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org

[email protected]

"A mom who watches a child gain unhealthy amounts of weight,
fifty or sixty pounds, and can attribute it to stress in the home and
inactivity, and THEN wonders what she can possibly do, does not understand
unschooling. A flow like that is a sucking undertow and not anything like
the beautiful, natural happiness many of us know unschooling to be."

Deb, this touched a nerve with me. I woke up early this morning really concerned about my deep understanding of and my abilities to really live the life of an unschooling parent. There have been some wonderful moments and experiences for our family over the past two years of unschooling. Intellectually and ideologically I agree with unschooling and I can feel my inner spirit so longs for the principles of it. And, I feel I need to assess if this is really working -- and I mean working from the stand point of each individual family member experiencing a deep happiness, satisfaction and support for what they want to do, or be or have.

I feel I find myself much like the parent you describe -- as if I have over the last year sat by as one of my boys has gained alot of weight, slept alot, and been extremely inactive. I admit I have been, and feel now, at a loss. I have mostly worked to keep the focus off the weight per se, provide a wide variety of food choices in the house; make outings available, support his interests, and desires (which are mostly sedentary right now - video games, TV, movies, reading books) and make life as rich and interesting as possible. I do feel there is an undertow of stress in our home that I'm not sure how to address -- things with my partner aren't great/there's significant financial stress these days. We're living in small quarters, working to move but it's going very slowly. . . . and I feel imbalanced with my work and my availability to my kids. I don't want to "beat myself up", but I do want to assess if I'm really qualified for the job of unschooling parent; or for today, how can I do it better. That'll be my focus today; to the best of my ability contribute to this home environment as much peace and joy, curiousity and "all is well" faith that I can . . . I'll trust that the stressors,etc. that need to be addressed will present themselves and be addressed in this calm and trusting environment. But/And, I don't want stuff to get swept under the rug only to be held onto or taken in by this sweet, sensitive young man who I know feels everthing so deeply, and profoundly. Feedback welcome.

-Ann.
(mom to twin DS age 13, DD age 12)

Shellini Spencer

Hi

I am new to this group. Can someone please explain exactly what
unschooling is or means?

Thank you!

Shellini

Mothers hold their children's hands for a short while, but their
hearts forever.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rshoulla

>>My dh is sceptical that I can teach her,
because he sees how she fights doing homework. I think that not
having to
spend 6hrs a day in school, then come home to a ton of homework at
night,
will create a completely different situation. <<

This sounded familiar, so here's my two cents.

We began hs'ing a year ago. We have a definite slant towards
unschooling, but aren't true unschoolers (yet - give us time). Our
ds is 13 and was in 7th grade. We struggled with him every single
year to do his homework.
It took some time to deschool, but he does not fight us anymore. It
wouldn't be fair to say we don't ever have to remind him, but because
he no longer feels so stressed (hours of school + hours of homework +
life), because he isn't doing ANYTHING he already knows how to do
(aka busywork), and because he sees the point again in learning,
that's all it usually is: a reminder... a gentle nudge.

What a difference it's made for his happiness, for our happiness and
for keeping the peace in our family!

My take: if she's fighting doing homework it's most likely a symptom
of unproductive schooling.

Robin

Debra Rossing

>However, it does help her follow what's going on sometimes, especially
if people are talking really fast or have accents.

We usually turn on the captioning if we're watching anything British -
sometimes the accent makes it really hard to catch everything as it
whizzes by. And we do NOT want to miss a bit of Dr. Who!

Deb

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

Hello and welcome.

Here's some links to get you started.
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://www.unschooling.info/articles.htm
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
http://www.foreverparents.com/UnschoolingVoices.html

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/




--- In [email protected], Shellini Spencer
<shellini@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I am new to this group. Can someone please explain exactly what
> unschooling is or means?
>
> Thank you!
>
> Shellini
>
> Mothers hold their children's hands for a short while, but their
> hearts forever.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Carrie Kimball

Hi Deb,
Thanks for writing this all down. I feel like you spoke to many thoughts I have had in the last few months I have been online around unschooling though our experiences of them are probably different.

You wrote:
>>>Some large percentage of people coming to these lists get it, and live it,
and unschooling will blossom for them. Because I've had two personal emails
in the last week from people who seem so very much NOT to get it, in spite
of claiming to have "read all the books" I am wondering whether there are
some things we need to address more often on the list. I wonder whether it
is so natural to those of us who've been living it for years that we not
paying enough attention to the fact it's not at all natural to someone who's
just pulling an unhappy kid out of school and wondering "what next?">>>>

And you also wrote:
>>>The flow of "What is" for some people is depressed mom, disinterested mom,
burned out mom, not providing opportunities or activities for kids.
The "flow" in a home where a mom is stressed or burned out is not
necessarily a healthy flow leading to joy and happy exploration. While I
don't know of any way we can or even should,
(or have any responsibility to) assess the mental or emotional health of a
mom coming to unschooling I
believe some people are not understanding what really is involved in
unschooling .>>>

I think these two issues are related. First, its apparent to me that the majority of people who are movers and shakers in the online unschooling comunity lead relatively speaking, picturesque lives. That's really great and self selecting since being online contributing like this involves a lot of time and effort. And it also means that the majority of parents, whose lives involve major stressors of one kind or another, won't be well understood as they struggle to piece together a life that includes unschooling. Statsitically, a large number of parents struggle with depression. Their questions will seem ridiculous, their adaptive strategies problematic.

Here are some examples: Repeatedly, solutions presented would work only for two adult households. I probably only notice this because I am a single parent. Adaptive strategies are going to be different if its all you all the time. Responses assume that there are two parents and they both work together even when there are differences of opinion. Many parents are negotiating repeatedly with a non- custodial coparent where finding middle ground that won't mean perfect unschooling is needed. Many solutions presented are financial ones. Many families don't have the financial resources, or maybe the financial creativity, to figure their way into the life often described by the people who post most often. There is also a syndrome of forgetfullness around very tiny children. Parenting two year olds is freaking hard. And doing it non-coercively has me drinking alcoholically at night. Trying to non- coercively balance the conflicting needs of two very young children one of whom communicates by screaming and hitting primarily is hard. There seem to be a plethora of folks with one child who is like 7-10 on the boards and such blasting the newcomers with multiple very little kids for being too coercive and violent. It helps to get empathy along with the advice that is hard to hear or stern.

In general, it feels very all or nothing on the boards and lists. You are either doing it this way, or you aren't succeeding and REALLY unschooling. I think many of us also find it problematic that there aren't more diverse resources. It's all Sandra Dodd all the time. Literally, it is the ONLY link anyone every offers up. And thus, what has become the standard of RU is whatever Sandra Dodd says it is. I like a lot of what is on her site. I really do. I have found a good deal of helpful solutions there. But I also feel left out as a parent because it really doesn't reflect the reality of my life. I feel invisible as an actual person because there isn't any representation for my life, and how unschooling intersects with it in the online world. And I know others feel similarly because I spend more time talking offlist to people who email me their questions out of fear of posting them and being bashed, than I do posting online right now. For some reason, the unschooling online culture has evolved to be a largely volatile and verbally abusive one. Which is ironic given how much time is devoted to non- violent communication with children. I like this list best personally, because people can ask hard questions and not be asked if they are sure they respect or love their kids. The boards can be the worst.

The response has, in my observation, often been to state that people "aren't getting it", or to say that "This doesn't apply to unschooling families" which is just so limiting and naive really. The examples you gave (multiplication tables) really do reflect not getting it on some level. But some people do get it, theoretically, but they are having concrete issues in their families where the paradigm isn't flowing beautifully and they need help. I see this especially with the total lifestyle aspects of unschooling. The non- academic stuff like bedtimes, communication, food, media.

I agree wholeheartedly with your concerns about the parent who comes to this out of laziness, though I am apt to suspect those parents rarely put the effort into being on a list. But I also am of the opinion that parental stress reduction and coping gets a bad rap. To my mind, considering my need for sleep, food, exercise etc... is essential to my kids wellbeing and happiness. Combining this with the fact of my being the only parent, broke and so on means that how I achieve those goals will sometimes look like a deviation from "real" unschooling. And it means that I won't always figure out the win/win before I give up and do what I need to do. So I just try again, think that scenario ahead and look for a better solution. But this process I am describing doesn't really get talked about in this online world except to judge it as being wrong.

I have considered starting a new list called something like "unschooling for freaks" or "unschooling for the dysfunctional family". And the first rule would be everyone has to be nice, because no one who cares for children has the emotional energy to be treated abusively. And we could all talk about the ways we are trying like hell to be unschooling families, and find creative solutions to the barriers we have, but also aknowledge that we screw it up sometimes, and we might even discover that we need to be coercive to survive sometimes and so forth. But that is always only true for that moment and we can look for better ways. Life is a process, and our kids learn from seeing us struggle through figuring things out. We don't all have to be "there" at the same time to help each other through.
Just random thoughts,
carrie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

> We began hs'ing a year ago. We have a definite slant towards
> unschooling, but aren't true unschoolers (yet - give us time).

How much time do you want? It isn't an infinite thing childhood.

>Our ds is 13 and was in 7th grade.

So you've got 5 years between now and unschooling isn't possible anymore.

>We struggled with him every single
> year to do his homework.
> It took some time to deschool, but he does not fight us anymore.

If you were unschooling he wouldn't have anything to fight about.


>It
> wouldn't be fair to say we don't ever have to remind him, but because
> he no longer feels so stressed (hours of school + hours of homework +
> life), because he isn't doing ANYTHING he already knows how to do
> (aka busywork), and because he sees the point again in learning,
> that's all it usually is: a reminder... a gentle nudge.

Structured schoolwork isn't required for learning. My two, who have never
been schooled, see the point in learning all the time and have never had to
relearn the joy of learning. In the car on the way into town today we talked
about how one of my ancestors (I'm American and can, apparently, date some
of my family back to some of the earliest European settlers in the U.S.) was
married in the town of Hingham in Norfolk, UK in 1600 and something -- where
we got lost driving a little bit just before Christmas (my dad just sent me
a letter with an extensive family tree enclosed). David (who is British and
whose ancestors were Normans) had brewers in the family who lived in
Norfolk. Which led to a conversation about the relatedness of all humans and
evolution, and ultimately to a discussion about how all living things share
a common ancestor. From that came a conversation about marrying cousins,
which had Simpsons references thrown in, and a study done in Newcastle and
mentions of major histocompatibility complex (MHC) and how someone's smell
can change whether you find them sexually attractive or not. And there was a
secondary conversation about where the word dog comes from (a quick search
on google states that although it has a French origin, there isn't a clear
understanding of where the word comes from). Linnaea thinks it is from dig,
'cause dogs dig. Linnaea is 6 and Simon is 9 and both were actively involved
in the conversation. Actually, Linnaea started it.

The problem with schoolwork is that by supporting the structure and the form
you are arguing that learning doesn't occur outside of the realm of
scholastic endeavors. And thus you are devaluing anything else in his life.
You are also arguing that learning takes some effort on your son's part. I
definitely think there are learned things that take effort (I was trying to
moonwalk this morning, and while I think I was improving, I definitely don't
have the move yet) I think it is nigh on impossible not to learn from life
all the time. Believing that understanding history, for example, comes from
reading textbooks that quote "facts" at you is just false. Yesterday we went
to a Cathedral ruins
(http://www.edp24.co.uk/Content/HiddenNorfolk/asp/2002/08/020824Cathdral1.asp)
just up the road from us to have a sword fight. History is all around us.
And not just in the UK, in Santa Fe, where we would go for occasional nights
out when we lived in Albuquerque, is the oldest church in the U.S. There is
a lot of history there. And there is Sandia Man in the mountains behind
Albuquerque dating to habitation some 10,000 years ago. Or there were the
tombs near our apartment in Kyoto, Japan where we saw the most amazing
insects I've ever seen in the flashlight beam as we peered around this cold
and dark cave with our neighbors. Evidence of some royal burial in the hills
behind Kyoto from centuries ago. Or, heck, trying to figure out where the
word dog comes from, or why my ancestor, who married in Hingham, Norfolk,
died in Stow, Massachusetts.

Learning is everywhere and you are doing your son no favors to move slowly
from school to unschooling. Take the step forward that means no more
nudging. Look at how much he can discover just by being a part of life with
you as his partner.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

[email protected]

---- Katharine Wise <katharinewise@...> wrote:
> My oldest son was almost 10 when he learned how to read, and the lack of shame was one of the most awesome features of unschooling him.

my son is just 11 now and getting the hang of reading

>
> I'm sure that if he'd been in school he'd have been diagnosed with a learning disability because,

unfortunatly my son was in school we pulled him out part way through last year because they decided he had a learning disability that clearly was not there yes he had trouble reading we let them test him and he was above his class in math and science but yet they wanted to put him in "special classes " for all of his subjects.

in his case, it was clear to me that it wasn't simply lack of interest but lack of certain "pre-reading" skills. He didn't get the concept of rhyming or any sense of phonetic connection until shortly before he taught himself to read. For instance, he enjoyed playing I Spy but we had to stick to visual clues, "I spy something red (or round)." I couldn't say, "I spy something that begins with the letter 'B' (or the sound /b/)." He also had some speech delays.

sounds so much like my son except the speech delays , but because he was in school
he was put under a lot of pressure by the staff he would come home from school and just kind of explode. Every day there was school my son had mental meltdown he was so frustrated and being that we taught him respect of elders and authority he would keep all the frustration in until he got home and would pretty much just bit his sisters heads off if they looked at him wrong (keep in mind he was 9 years old)
it was awful. but i knew and had been telling the school there is nothing wrong with him he will read when he is ready. well by fourth grade they decided to test him and tell me if i did not put him in special classes he would not be able to do the work in school he would fail and that he possibly had asburgers syndrome(a form of autism i looked into it and talked with our family doc). (my turn to explode) I told them they were just looking for extra funding and to give the help to children who really needed it and I colleced his things that very day from his desk and we have not looked back since.

My proudest day, my proof if you will that i did the right thing came just a few days ago my son who hates to read and fights every page (i have him read one a least a day) said to me (we were reading a book) " i want to read some more mom the story is to good to stop here." (I almost cried) He still finds it very hard t o read but he is starting to put it together and now he wants to!
now I know what homeschooling is for :)


marlene

>
> However, not being in school or "schooled", he just asked when he needed to know what something said or how to write something. He had no sense of self-consciousness about it, even when we were in public. (I have to confess, however, that I sometimes had to squelch my own self-consciousness!) The summer my oldest was 9 he went to karate camp. It never occurred to me that he'd have any reason to read or write there, but I was a little early picking him up on the 3rd or 4th day and saw the instructor handing out journals to the students and telling them what he wanted them to write about. (They were more evaluations for the dojo's use than journals, really, as he wanted them to write what their favorite activities were.) I felt awful that I had put ds in that situation without letting the teacher know. But my son raised his hand, and since this was the 3rd or 4th day they already knew what he needed, and one of the junior black-belts went over and spelled out each word
> for him. I casually asked my son about it later, and he said that on the first day he just asked for help spelling the words. It was clear it hadn't bothered him at all.
>
> Katharine
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>
> But I try to be as patient as possible and he is
>
> reading without frustration (well, sometimes a little) and without
>
> shame from the school system because oh my gosh!!, he is so old to
>
> just be learning how to read!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Don't pick lemons.
> See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Manisha Kher

--- Carrie Kimball <ckmidwife@...> wrote:

> Here are some examples: Repeatedly, solutions
> presented would work only for two adult households.

Most people on this list are writing about their own
experiences. Since most of us do live in two adult
households, most of the solutions that we present are
going to involve that scenario. If you as a single
parent have an actual problem that you're looking for
suggestions for, you need to state that fact upfront,
so people can brainstorm about possible solutions that
may work for you.

> Parenting
> two year olds is freaking hard. And doing it
> non-coercively has me drinking alcoholically at
> night.
I hope you're exaggerating here to make point. If not,
you've bigger problems than an uncshooling list can
solve.

> Trying to non- coercively balance the
> conflicting needs of two very young children one of
> whom communicates by screaming and hitting primarily
> is hard.
This topic comes up periodically and is being
discussed right now on UnschoolingDiscussion. That's a
google group and I believe you can read all the
discussions without becoming a member. If this is the
problem you're facing right now, you can bring it up
here for discussion. But honestly, I read your message
twice and could not tell whether you were just
bringing up examples of different issues that other
people had or you personally had any of those
problems.

> There seem to be a plethora of folks with
> one child who is like 7-10 on the boards and such

This is so NOT TRUE of this list that I don't know
which boards you're talking about. Without thinking
too hard, I managed to name 3 people with one child
each and many more with multiples including one who
has 7.

Manisha





____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265

Schuyler

> Here are some examples: Repeatedly, solutions presented would work only
> for two adult households. I probably only notice this because I am a
> single parent. >Adaptive strategies are going to be different if its all
> you all the time. Responses assume that there are two parents and they
> both work together even when there >are differences of opinion. Many
> parents are negotiating repeatedly with a non- custodial coparent where
> finding middle ground that won't mean perfect >unschooling is needed.

I am a member of a two adult household. I can't respond to you from a single
parent perspective, but I could, and others could, offer solutions to
specific issues recognizing the limitations of being solo parent. I don't
know how possible it is to unschool when you are negotiating with a
non-custodial parent. It isn't really possible to unschool in an household
with two parents if one parent doesn't agree. And having the added
limitation of whatever tensions there are in a post-divorce scenario, where
custody may be an issue or where there may be shared custody agreements, I
can only imagine how difficult a tightwire performance it must be without
throwing the difficulty of demonstrating learning to someone who doesn't
even approve of homeschooling.

>There is also a syndrome of forgetfullness around very tiny children.
>Parenting two year olds is freaking hard. And >doing it non-coercively has
>me drinking >alcoholically at night. Trying to non- coercively balance the
>conflicting needs of two very young children one of whom >communicates by
>screaming and hitting >primarily is hard. There seem to be a plethora of
>folks with one child who is like 7-10 on the boards and such blasting the
> >newcomers with multiple very little >kids for being too coercive and
>violent. It helps to get empathy along with the advice that is hard to hear
>or stern.
>

I have two children. My eldest is 9 and my youngest is 6. They will be 7 and
10 in the next two months. Part of why posting for me is easier now than it
was when they were 2 and 5 is because they aren't 2 and 5 anymore. Parenting
2 year olds can be hard as 2 year olds require a lot of a parent's time, but
rather than have us give you sympathy about how hard having a 2 year old is
so that you can feel justified in either your coercive responses or in your
alcoholic tendencies, surely helping you to be find ways to be a calmer and
more patient parent would be more useful. And I think this list is rich with
empathy.

Parenting is a different kind of thing to being a Bongo van owner. My
husband is on a list for Bongo van owners and he doesn't have to worry
nearly so much about how he writes things, about how things are going to be
taken as does someone posting parenting advice. It is really easy to feel
critized when someone says something about your parenting than it is when
someone says that you might need to change the oil on your van. It helps if
you try and imagine the person writing is saying it in the nicest possible
voice. The amount of thought and consideration and generousity which the
people on this list put into their posts is incredible, it is like nothing
else I know.

> In general, it feels very all or nothing on the boards and lists. You are
> either doing it this way, or you aren't succeeding and REALLY unschooling.
> I think many of >us also find it problematic that there aren't more
> diverse resources.

Than make them. Make a http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/ site or an
http://www.unschooling.info/ site or http://sandradodd.com/unschooling or
make an e-zine like http://connections.organiclearning.org/ and when people
ask for help offer up your site. If there are many of you it should be easy
to put together the resources, instead of looking these gift horses in the
mouth and saying it isn't enough.

> It's all Sandra Dodd all the time. Literally, it is the ONLY link anyone
> every offers up.

I bet you that isn't true. I know I've linked other sites. And, often, when
you follow the links to Sandra's site you will find someone other than
Sandra writing. But Sandra has put together such an amazing resource it
would be a shame to ignore it. And it would serve no purpose to ignore it.

>
> I have considered starting a new list called something like "unschooling
> for freaks" or "unschooling for the dysfunctional family". And the first
> rule would be >everyone has to be nice, because no one who cares for
> children has the emotional energy to be treated abusively. And we could
> all talk about the ways we are >trying like hell to be unschooling
> families, and find creative solutions to the barriers we have, but also
> aknowledge that we screw it up sometimes, and we might >even discover that
> we need to be coercive to survive sometimes and so forth. But that is
> always only true for that moment and we can look for better ways. Life
> >is a process, and our kids learn from seeing us struggle through figuring
> things out. We don't all have to be "there" at the same time to help each
> other through.

Than do it. Create a list. I'm sure you could invite people to join on this
list and on other lists. There isn't any loyalty card for staying with the
already established lists. For me though, the reason why these lists work is
because they aren't there to support you at this stage, they are there to
help you see ways to get to the next stage. I wouldn't have made the changes
that I've made in my own life if it weren't for people posting about better
ways to be and what trusting your children can look like and what it can
make. And even more than that, if it weren't for people talking honestly
about focusing their lives on being the best parent they could be meant
often being the best spouse/partner they could be, I wouldn't be as happily
married as I am. I think life can be bleak, but for me wallowing in its
bleakness has never made it better. So a list that told me that in the face
of whatever difficulties I found myself using coercion to get my children to
do what I wanted was justified wouldn't work for me. If I want justification
for timeouts or for putting limits on my children I can find them
everywhere.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

lelania1

> Most people on this list are writing about their own
> experiences. Since most of us do live in two adult
> households, most of the solutions that we present are
> going to involve that scenario. If you as a single
> parent have an actual problem that you're looking for
> suggestions for, you need to state that fact upfront,
> so people can brainstorm about possible solutions that
> may work for you.

I find most do state this upfront. But it isn't always easy to think
up solutions to problems you don't have yourself and I can understand
that. I tend to respond to those posts, but offlist because I have
been attacked for sharing thoughts that don't make the RU bar. By the
way, are you sure most people here are two parent families? Or just
the people who are vocal? I don't know, personally, but it seems like
on every list the number of people who post is a fraction of the
total volume subscribed. Maybe there are more diverse family
structures than you're imagining.
In any event, you are right that people post from their own
experiences, and in the RU world it does seem to be largely two
parent families. But the fact remains, those experiences may not meet
the needs of every family thus my point that the frustration some
folks have with people who "don't get it" could be due to difficulty
understanding those different needs. Sometimes people DO get it,
but "it" isn't easily working in their household. Unschooling can
work for all kinds of people, and it helps for all of us to have an
ideal out there to be working toward. But process is just as
important.

> > Parenting
> > two year olds is freaking hard. And doing it
> > non-coercively has me drinking alcoholically at
> > night.
> I hope you're exaggerating here to make point. If not,
> you've bigger problems than an uncshooling list can
> solve.

My post didn't ask you to solve any problem for me, but yes I was
making a joke. Truth be told, many of my mommy friends HAVE taken to
drinking at night which concerns me sometimes. But I can also
understand it. personally, I don't drink because both my parents are
addicted. But I have very seriously wanted to at the end of 16 hour
days with my kids. I doubt this makes me someone with a serious
problem, more likely it gets me membership in a really huge club.

>>> But honestly, I read your message
> twice and could not tell whether you were just
> bringing up examples of different issues that other
> people had or you personally had any of those
> problems.

I am on several lists, and read several boards and was referring to
some of the themes of miscommunication that I see repeatedly on all
of them. I see a gap in problem solving for parents with really young
kids, among some other gaps. The post I was responding to asked a
question about how we as a community could be better addressing the
people coming to unschooling and looking for information. I don't
have an expectation that individuals be able to address the needs of
every person. One suggestion I DO have is that the environments be
more welcoming, empathetic and flexible to allow for different
demographics and the ways those folks are trying to live an
unschooling life. You can do that without actually compromising the
premise of what you believe. And when the environment feels more
understanding then people feel freer to post about their solutions
and problems.
I did say, but let me repeat, that in general I find this list to be
one of the less combative more pleasant experiences.
carrie

lelania1

Hi Schuyler-

>>> I don't
> know how possible it is to unschool when you are negotiating with a
> non-custodial parent. It isn't really possible to unschool in an
household
> with two parents if one parent doesn't agree. And having the added
> limitation of whatever tensions there are in a post-divorce
scenario, where
> custody may be an issue or where there may be shared custody
agreements, I
> can only imagine how difficult a tightwire performance it must be
without
> throwing the difficulty of demonstrating learning to someone who
doesn't
> even approve of homeschooling.>>>>

It can be hard, and even ugly. But negotiation goes a long way. You
are probably right that complete RU can't be realized in the above
scenarios, but all is not lost. I like to see this journey as a
continuum. There are places where some of us are having to compromise
what we would ideally like, but it doesn't make us "schooling", and
it doesn't mean that in a few days, weeks or months things can't be
different. Even when someone is really far from an RU life, I still
think there is benefit to this exposure for their interactions with
their kids. It doesn't need to be all or nothing to be positive.


>>> rather than have us give you sympathy about how hard having a 2
year old is
> so that you can feel justified in either your coercive responses or
in your
> alcoholic tendencies, surely helping you to be find ways to be a
calmer and
> more patient parent would be more useful. And I think this list is
rich with
> empathy.>>>

I still don't get why its an either/or. If kids communication needs
are best met in an environment of empathy and support, why wouldn't
that be true for an adult? Being supportive and empathetic doesn't
require you to let go of your beliefs. But it might require people to
be more creative in imagining WHY a person is using parenting
approaches that are coercive and authoritative.


>>>But Sandra has put together such an amazing resource it
> would be a shame to ignore it. And it would serve no purpose to
ignore it.>>>

And I said as much myself. But it doesn't change the fact that its
one person, with one perspective and as a statement of fact, that
limits its application to a diverse group of people.

>>> Than do it. Create a list. I'm sure you could invite people to
join on this
> list and on other lists. There isn't any loyalty card for staying
with the
> already established lists. For me though, the reason why these
lists work is
> because they aren't there to support you at this stage, they are
there to
> help you see ways to get to the next stage.

No one can ever be anywhere but where they are. It might be
frustrating to see people here all the way at chapter one when you
see yourself at the endnotes, but telling them to read faster doesn't
really help. When people get support and empathy, they learn faster
and they make progress. Seeing ways to get to the next stage was what
this discussion was about for me. I tried to suggest alternate
reasons why some people coming to RU new feel so stuck, or like they
don't get it. Clearly those thoughts didn't resonate with your
experiences.


>>>>So a list that told me that in the face
> of whatever difficulties I found myself using coercion to get my
children to
> do what I wanted was justified wouldn't work for me.>>>

This is the black and white thinking I was referring to. If we use
tough love, people will unschool. If we show understanding for the
diversity of peoples lives and the challenges people have
implementing what we are talking about then that means we are
justifying coercion.
I have a different philosophy about what helps people make changes. I
haven't seen people make changes because they are shamed, ridiculed,
bullied, threatened or isolated. I have seen people make changes
generally pretty slowly. And often with a lot of "I can't" along the
way. And the "I can't" is real for them. I accept where people are
because I choose only to accept and believe what is reality. I meet
people where they are. That doesn't mean wherever someone is is OK.
It doesn't mean where they are is where they will always be. IT just
means they are there. I realize that people often need to make
changes in stages, and do so within their own comfort zone. That's
probably how most people went into RU. They tried things out where
they could, and gained confidence to change more. Their kids also got
older and stuff changed in their practical day to day coping. It's
frustrating watching other people make changes when you feel like
your on the other side. Maybe your process was easy. There are
practical reasons why its going to be more of a struggle for some
people. That doesn't mean they shouldn't try and keep trying.

>>>If I want justification
> for timeouts or for putting limits on my children I can find them
> everywhere.

And by people who sound very understanding and empathetic which is
why so many parents go that route. They feel like they are understood
and heard, and therefore this person must have the answer. People are
looking for things that work. And sometimes there aren't really
things that work. There is doing the best you can, and knowing
tomorrow is another day. I agree with what you said in a different
post about recognizing that childhood isn't forever. I would add that
we have to balance that with believeing that every shortcoming is the
end of our childrens chance at an emotionally healthy future. You
didn't say that it was, I am refering more genrally to RU forums.
carrie

Deb Lewis

***First, its apparent to me that the majority of people who are movers and
shakers in the online unschooling comunity lead relatively speaking,
picturesque lives. ***

This is a false assumption. Diana Jenner, who is active on several lists
including Always Learning and Unschooling Discussion, and who will be
speaking at the Life Is Good NW. Unschooling Conference in Corvallis, OR. in
April, has lost a husband and a child and is unschooling her young son.

While I'm not a mover or a shaker I have taken care of two family members at
home during their final illness - my father when Dylan was eight and my
father in law when Dylan was nine, we continue to help my mother in law
during her ongoing battle with
depression and anxiety, and for the last year I have been taking care of my
mother who has Alzheimer's disease, while my
husband works away from home. I have a job, two cats who have serious
medical
conditions (read: astronomical vet bills and worry) and a kid who has
arthritis.

We have been so broke that we ate beans and rice for months, disconnected
our cable TV, set the thermostat as low as we could stand it, sold off
beloved furniture I inherited from a Great Aunt
and scrounged in other ways to make ends meet when they couldn't possibly
meet.

But we still found ways to have fun, to stay focused on what was important
and to be joyful. It's not how good you have it, it's how good you make
it.

Everyone can choose to live in a way that builds a better
relationship between parent and child. But a person has to want that more
than they want to find excuses why it isn't happening or won't work. It's
not easy to pull oneself out of the seductive comfort of depression but it's
possible and it's necessary if kids are going to be happy and unschooling is
going to have a chance of working.

On these lists we give examples of what works to keep a family together, to
make life joyful in spite of our challenges and to move us in a positive
direction.

I think it's a cop out, frankly, to say "yeah, well, you don't know how hard
I have it." If I had to bet, I'd say very few unschoolers have a stress
free, problem free life. The difference between the people who make
unschooling a success and the people who flounder is not perfect life
conditions, it's attitude.

***Many parents are negotiating repeatedly with a non- custodial coparent
where finding middle ground that won't mean perfect unschooling is
needed.***

Perfect unschooling shouldn't be the priority. The best life for the child
should be. What makes the most sense and will provide the most stability
and safety and happiness for the child? Sometimes people can't unschool.
But parents can still live sweetly with children, still live and interact in
ways that build the relationship and a stable happy home life.

***Parenting two year olds is freaking hard. And doing it non-coercively has
me drinking alcoholically at night.***

I know it's hard. I'm sorry you're struggling. If I was your neighbor I'd
come get your kids so you could sleep. But it's just pure bullshit to claim
that trying to be a good parent makes you drink.

***There seem to be a plethora of folks with one child who is like 7-10 on
the boards ***

Most people who have a seven or ten year old also had a two year old. Most
parents lived through those years of little sleep, no time alone, no time
without a child attached to them in one way or another, money problems,
relationship problems...

When you write to the lists or boards you might clearly state your
situation - Single, coping with uncooperative co parent, two little kids,
limited energy, money
problems, stress. There are families who have lived through
similar situations. And even if a parent of one ten year old hasn't lived
your exact situation she may have good ideas for you,
but you won't see them if you can't change your focus.

***It's all Sandra Dodd all the time. Literally, it is the ONLY link anyone
every offers up. ***

I've seen other links offered. Joyce Fetteroll's site, Ren Allen's,
Danielle Conger's, links to the message boards, to other lists. Sandra's
site is offered a lot because Sandra has spent years writing about
unschooling and collecting the writings of others and has taken the time to
build a site. Anyone can do that, collect writings or links they think are
helpful and put them in one place.

The unschooling blogs are wonderful because you really get a sense of family
life for lots of unschoolers and clearly, many people struggle with some of
the same issues you're having.

And ultimately, the success of and responsibility for any individual's
unschooling life is up to them. Sandra Dodd's happy and successful life is
a little glimpse of what anyone might find if they choose that. Her
happiness isn't causing your unhappiness.

***For some reason, the unschooling online culture has evolved to be a
largely volatile and verbally abusive one.***

There are hundreds of lists and they are as active or as interesting as the
posting members make them. I don't personally find frank or blunt
questions or advice to be abusive, but I've read that others do think so.
My feeling is that any adult coming to a discussion list has the ability to
read the archives and see what the discussions are typically like - before
they ever post - in order to see if the list is a good fit for them . Not
everyone appreciates straightforward kinds of discussion. Some people are
looking for a gentle support list, but the responsibility of finding the
right list lies with the individual. It's not the job of any particular
list to become what each listmember needs the most at any given time. I
don't know how to address this problem except to say, keep looking, or as
Schuyler suggested, start a list for single, struggling moms with younger
children. I would be happy to look for lists for you and send you the
links.

***But some people do get it, theoretically, but they are having concrete
issues in their families where the paradigm isn't flowing beautifully and
they need help. I see this especially with the total lifestyle aspects of
unschooling. The non- academic stuff like bedtimes, communication, food,
media. ***

I think this is where the lists are most helpful, when people understand the
concept but aren't sure how to implement it or need ideas for coping.

***But I also am of the opinion that parental stress reduction and coping
gets a bad rap. To my mind, considering my need for sleep, food, exercise
etc... is essential to my kids wellbeing and happiness. Combining this with
the fact of my being the only parent, broke and so on means that how I
achieve those goals will sometimes look like a deviation from "real"
unschooling. And it means that I won't always figure out the win/win before
I give up and do what I need to do. So I just try again, think that scenario
ahead and look for a better solution. But this process I am describing
doesn't really get talked about in this online world except to judge it as
being wrong.***

I think when it's discussed it's often presented as a parent vs. kid kind of
thing. Some mom will say "I need to take care of myself FIRST" and others
say, "You have a kid who can't wait." It is possible to meet our own needs
and the needs of our kids simultaneously. Kids really should not have to
wait for parents to be emotionally ready. Parents really do need to get it
together for their kids sake. We don't have a lot of time. But I also see
that it's talked about superficially sometimes and I think that's because
most people who have some time to write to lists don't really have as much
time as it would take, or aren't really sure how to coach a stranger through
emotional difficulties. This is often beyond what a list can do.

I have seen some really good advice though, and so maybe sometimes it's that
the advice a mom under stress needs isn't coming as fast or in the
quantities she could use it. What can be done about that? Maybe we can
set up a resource page and link to writings by specific topic. "How can a
single mom of little kids recharge her batteries and still be connected to
her kids?"

I had a partner who would bounce the baby while I sank into a tub for twenty
minutes, or went for a run, or just sat and stared into space if that's what
I needed. Can you call a friend over a few times a week so you could do the
same? Can you ask someone from your church? Can you make a room with
mattresses on the floor and blankets and a TV so you could close the door
and keep your little kids close by, watching a favorite movie while you nap?

I still live on four hours sleep a night, the amount I got (finally)
straight through when Dylan was little. I was sick recently and surprised
myself by sleeping ten hours, something I haven't done since I was teen
aged. I remember those days with a demanding baby and thinking I might
really die from exhaustion. I'd nap if he fell asleep while nursing but
that wouldn't have been an option if I had another little one toddling
around. What are your sleep needs? What are your self care needs? A
friend of mine who was a single mom in college when her kids were small
slept on the sofa in small snatches of time, with her legs over the legs of
her little kids while they watched a video. That way she usually felt if
one of them got down.

It's better your life look like a happy place for kids than look like "real
unschooling." Really. If you're agonizing that you might not be meeting
some standard of unschooling then stop that. <g> Be the best mom to your
kids. Make your home joyful and sweet. With little kids you don't have to
be thinking about what "real" unschooling is anyway, but thinking about what
makes life really safe and lovely for your kids and what builds your
relationship with them.

Part of why I believe so strongly in unschooling is that I believe parents
have a moral responsibility to make the absolute best life possible for
their children before anything else. So my advice will probably always be
to take care of children first.

***I have considered starting a new list called something like "unschooling
for freaks"***

Yeah, I'd use a different name.<g> I encourage you to start a list for
single struggling moms, yes. But I caution that sometimes, as comforting
as a support list might be, it has the potential to become one more excuse
for not making real changes in ourselves and in our lives that will move us
in a positive direction. There's danger in commiseration in that it often
closes the door on progress toward something better. Sometimes, as much as
we want to hear someone confirm that life sucks, it's better for our kids to
have someone say to us, "GET UP and DO something about it."

Deb Lewis

Melissa

Deb, Deb, Deb...thanks for the perfect wording for me. We've been here for a bit, but just
didn't know how to say it. I think I'll cross stitch it in a big sampler to go over the fireplace
:-)

On to the post, I just wrote a blog (that I think is in the unschooling voices) about how for
me it was difficult to deschool because I was so caught up in the idea of proving myself to
other unschoolers that I was as unschoolie as they were. Thank heavens I got past that,
because it is a terrible self-burden that decreases your ability to have fun.

No one has a perfect life, but what you'll find is that those who are able to focus on the
positive usually have a happier life. Those who aren't trying to find answers everywhere
but from within find answers that fit their family.

We're unschooling seven children, several with disabilities. It's very hard. Sometimes I was
an only parent, when dh was TDY with the air force...thankfully that's over, but there are
still days when he's gone more than he's here. I'm tired, I'm bruised from a meltdown, it's
hard work. But I don't want to focus on those things because once that happens, then
(how did someone put it) the seductive draw of depression? can exponentially suck you
down!

Now it's too late and I don't know if I'm making sense. We were expecting a baby but she
was born on Sunday afternoon, far too early to survive. We had turned down a really
important placement (possible adoption) with two girls because of the pregnancy, so now I
feel like I've lost three girls in less than a month. But I think of Diana, and the Jenner
family, and know that we've learned so much from her wisdom and grace. While we're sad,
we were able to rejoice in her role in our lives...and celebrate it. Off topic from the post, I
know, but kind of just throwing it in.

Much love
Melissa

--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
>
But we still found ways to have fun, to stay focused on what was important
and to be joyful. It's not how good you have it, it's how good you make
it.