Re: No
Deb Lewis
***But based on title alone, I agree. ***
When unschoolers talk about "no" they're talking about arbitrary negative
responses to kid requests. Children are showered in negativity from their
parents and other adults who believe children must be made to understand the
world is tough, life is hard and you can't have everything you want.
But we've had generation after generation of children raised that way and
now we have a citizenry of depressed, disordered, unhappy, dysfunctional
miserable people.
***Kids and adults need to hear no from others and also, maybe more
importantly, need to know the freedom of being able to say no. And if we
want the freedom to say it, we need to accept the reality that we'll hear
it.***
Kids don't need to hear "No" so that they can learn about life. Life will
present it's own natural limitations. Family situations will sometimes
present natural limitations. Location can present natural limitations to
something a kid might want to do. Kids don't need arbitrary limitations
placed on them by people who are thoughtlessly passing down the "who do you
think you are?" legacy of parenting.
And kids don't need to hear "no" so they can learn to say "no." Kid's need
to have their choices respected. It's that simple. They need to be free to
NOT hug Aunt Martha, to NOT wave bye-bye to Mr. Jones, to NOT kiss Grandpa,
to NOT have to stay at Grandma's if they don't want to. They need to be
free to listen to their own instincts about people and places and they need
to be able to say "no" to foods they don't like, and ideas they don't agree
with. That's how they will have the confidence to say "no" when they are
older.
***This is one of the things I learned in my own unschool life. My parents
never said no. I had a very hard time saying no to anyone, and when I
started trying to assert myself, I used it to harshly. ***
Equating unschooling with neglect is not helpful. Parents who leave kids
on their own, to figure things out for themselves and who are not examples
of thoughtful, honest maturity are not unschooling. Unschooling parents
need to be involved with their kids, to be helpful and empowering so that
long before their kids are out on their own they have the skills they need
to get along well. Those skills are developed in a home where parents are
examples of good decision making and thoughtful consideration of others.
It's not about how often a kid hears "no."
This site is by a bunch of folks whose baseline is schooled kids. They're
starting from a population who's psychology has already been altered by
school.
Deb Lewis
When unschoolers talk about "no" they're talking about arbitrary negative
responses to kid requests. Children are showered in negativity from their
parents and other adults who believe children must be made to understand the
world is tough, life is hard and you can't have everything you want.
But we've had generation after generation of children raised that way and
now we have a citizenry of depressed, disordered, unhappy, dysfunctional
miserable people.
***Kids and adults need to hear no from others and also, maybe more
importantly, need to know the freedom of being able to say no. And if we
want the freedom to say it, we need to accept the reality that we'll hear
it.***
Kids don't need to hear "No" so that they can learn about life. Life will
present it's own natural limitations. Family situations will sometimes
present natural limitations. Location can present natural limitations to
something a kid might want to do. Kids don't need arbitrary limitations
placed on them by people who are thoughtlessly passing down the "who do you
think you are?" legacy of parenting.
And kids don't need to hear "no" so they can learn to say "no." Kid's need
to have their choices respected. It's that simple. They need to be free to
NOT hug Aunt Martha, to NOT wave bye-bye to Mr. Jones, to NOT kiss Grandpa,
to NOT have to stay at Grandma's if they don't want to. They need to be
free to listen to their own instincts about people and places and they need
to be able to say "no" to foods they don't like, and ideas they don't agree
with. That's how they will have the confidence to say "no" when they are
older.
***This is one of the things I learned in my own unschool life. My parents
never said no. I had a very hard time saying no to anyone, and when I
started trying to assert myself, I used it to harshly. ***
Equating unschooling with neglect is not helpful. Parents who leave kids
on their own, to figure things out for themselves and who are not examples
of thoughtful, honest maturity are not unschooling. Unschooling parents
need to be involved with their kids, to be helpful and empowering so that
long before their kids are out on their own they have the skills they need
to get along well. Those skills are developed in a home where parents are
examples of good decision making and thoughtful consideration of others.
It's not about how often a kid hears "no."
This site is by a bunch of folks whose baseline is schooled kids. They're
starting from a population who's psychology has already been altered by
school.
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
***You are so right! How can you ever learn to assert yourself if your
parents
don't show you how by their example.***
People learn to be confident by being on the receiving end of respect.
People don't gain confidence by hearing that what they want or what they
like or what they wish they could do cannot be done. People gain
confidence when they see positive examples of achievement, not denial.
Some people get very assertive when they've gone without the things they
wanted and needed. Some get so assertive they lie and steal to get what
they want.
***And no isn't always negative it is just
"no." ***
No, you can't have that doll. No you can't have another cookie. No you
can't play that game. No, because I said so. These are the things kids
hear. That's negative. There is no "just no" to a child. It all has
meaning. "Just no" implies that kids aren't really hurt by the careless and
arbitrary diarrhea that flows from the mouths of their parents.
***Saying no, saying yes and saying "I'm sorry I wish I knew but I don't
know" are all ways of saying "I love you."***
That doesn't even make sense. Telling a child she can't have a glass of
water when she's thirsty because a mom doesn't want to change a wet bed
later is not "I love you." It's, "I don't want to be inconvenienced by
you." Telling a kid he can't have a snack when he's hungry because mom
wants him to eat all his dinner is not, "I love you." It's "I know better
than you do how hungry you are."
***I remember back then feeling thankful that my
mom and dad would have screamed until their voices bled in order to keep me
out of danger, ***
A parent who lets a child walk up to a venomous snake is neglectful. It
doesn't take screaming to keep a child safe. It takes thought and attention
and good judgment.
A child who hears "no" a lot is very likely, over time, to stop hearing it
at all. It will become so much background noise from mom and dad. Because
those parents, those "no" parents, aren't working for a partnership with
their child their working for a dictatorship. But a child who's parents
find ways to say "yes," to provide what a child wants to the best of their
ability and who are in partnership with their child will hear and listen if
the parents ever do say "no" or "stop."
Deb Lewis
parents
don't show you how by their example.***
People learn to be confident by being on the receiving end of respect.
People don't gain confidence by hearing that what they want or what they
like or what they wish they could do cannot be done. People gain
confidence when they see positive examples of achievement, not denial.
Some people get very assertive when they've gone without the things they
wanted and needed. Some get so assertive they lie and steal to get what
they want.
***And no isn't always negative it is just
"no." ***
No, you can't have that doll. No you can't have another cookie. No you
can't play that game. No, because I said so. These are the things kids
hear. That's negative. There is no "just no" to a child. It all has
meaning. "Just no" implies that kids aren't really hurt by the careless and
arbitrary diarrhea that flows from the mouths of their parents.
***Saying no, saying yes and saying "I'm sorry I wish I knew but I don't
know" are all ways of saying "I love you."***
That doesn't even make sense. Telling a child she can't have a glass of
water when she's thirsty because a mom doesn't want to change a wet bed
later is not "I love you." It's, "I don't want to be inconvenienced by
you." Telling a kid he can't have a snack when he's hungry because mom
wants him to eat all his dinner is not, "I love you." It's "I know better
than you do how hungry you are."
***I remember back then feeling thankful that my
mom and dad would have screamed until their voices bled in order to keep me
out of danger, ***
A parent who lets a child walk up to a venomous snake is neglectful. It
doesn't take screaming to keep a child safe. It takes thought and attention
and good judgment.
A child who hears "no" a lot is very likely, over time, to stop hearing it
at all. It will become so much background noise from mom and dad. Because
those parents, those "no" parents, aren't working for a partnership with
their child their working for a dictatorship. But a child who's parents
find ways to say "yes," to provide what a child wants to the best of their
ability and who are in partnership with their child will hear and listen if
the parents ever do say "no" or "stop."
Deb Lewis
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/6/2007 12:52:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
d.lewis@... writes:
***Saying no, saying yes and saying "I'm sorry I wish I knew but I don't
know" are all ways of saying "I love you."***
That doesn't even make sense. Telling a child she can't have a glass of
water when she's thirsty because a mom doesn't want to change a wet bed
later is not "I love you." It's, "I don't want to be inconvenienced by
you."
I can't imagine that anyone who unschools would say no for these reasons. If
your child wets the bed you would say "if you have this glass of water right
now it may make things hard for you later if you feel like peeing at night"
and then let the child decide. No kid WANTS to wet their bed. After they
understand how the water thing relates to the wet bed they will figure out on
their own how to get it together. But if your child wants to run around the
pool, play in the street at night or put mouthfuls of sand from the sandbox in
their mouth then no is always a good option with an explanation after of
course. I have met my share of overly relaxed parents who don't say no to these
things and suffer terrible consequences both in terms of safety and anti-social
behavior later in life. Boundaries, especially put in place for safety, are
very loving. I also don't think a parent should say yes to things that will
cause their life to become terrible just for the sake of their child feeling
free. For example, I have to work extremely early on Sunday morning and need
the house quiet and calm and everyone asleep fairly early Sat night. Any other
night and they can stay up all night long as far as I'm concerned and sleep
all afternoon, but if I get unhealthy from not sleeping and worn down and
sick, what good am I to my kids? So Sat night I tell them when they have to be
in bed and more importantly WHY and because they love me, they respect it and
want what is best for the whole family. On rare occasion there will be some
resistance because of a great science show that's on or a game they don't
want to stop playing, but I say no, albeit gently - if I didn't, I wouldn't be
respecting myself and my health or them! No does work and does function as a
loving thing when done at the right time.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
d.lewis@... writes:
***Saying no, saying yes and saying "I'm sorry I wish I knew but I don't
know" are all ways of saying "I love you."***
That doesn't even make sense. Telling a child she can't have a glass of
water when she's thirsty because a mom doesn't want to change a wet bed
later is not "I love you." It's, "I don't want to be inconvenienced by
you."
I can't imagine that anyone who unschools would say no for these reasons. If
your child wets the bed you would say "if you have this glass of water right
now it may make things hard for you later if you feel like peeing at night"
and then let the child decide. No kid WANTS to wet their bed. After they
understand how the water thing relates to the wet bed they will figure out on
their own how to get it together. But if your child wants to run around the
pool, play in the street at night or put mouthfuls of sand from the sandbox in
their mouth then no is always a good option with an explanation after of
course. I have met my share of overly relaxed parents who don't say no to these
things and suffer terrible consequences both in terms of safety and anti-social
behavior later in life. Boundaries, especially put in place for safety, are
very loving. I also don't think a parent should say yes to things that will
cause their life to become terrible just for the sake of their child feeling
free. For example, I have to work extremely early on Sunday morning and need
the house quiet and calm and everyone asleep fairly early Sat night. Any other
night and they can stay up all night long as far as I'm concerned and sleep
all afternoon, but if I get unhealthy from not sleeping and worn down and
sick, what good am I to my kids? So Sat night I tell them when they have to be
in bed and more importantly WHY and because they love me, they respect it and
want what is best for the whole family. On rare occasion there will be some
resistance because of a great science show that's on or a game they don't
want to stop playing, but I say no, albeit gently - if I didn't, I wouldn't be
respecting myself and my health or them! No does work and does function as a
loving thing when done at the right time.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wildflower Car
***When unschoolers talk about "no" they're talking about arbitrary negative
responses to kid requests."***
I'm was unschooled from age 12 on and have now unschooled my children
for 15 years. "No." has a vast number of meanings given the context in which
it is said.
But I haven't read the book, so I'm not aware of how he was using it.
***Children are showered in negativity from their
parents and other adults who believe children must be made to understand the
world is tough, life is hard and you can't have everything you want.***
I know some children are treated that way, but that is a big generalization.
My kids aren't even close to being treated that way. And I know kids who
attend public school, private school, and more traditional homeschoolers who
also don't live
like that.
***But we've had generation after generation of children raised that way and
now we have a citizenry of depressed, disordered, unhappy, dysfunctional
miserable people.***
Again, IMHO, that is a big generalization, but I think your right that it
certainly
contributes to people like the above.
***Kids don't need to hear "No" so that they can learn about life. Life
will
present it's own natural limitations. Family situations will sometimes
present natural limitations. Location can present natural limitations to
something a kid might want to do. Kids don't need arbitrary limitations
placed on them by people who are thoughtlessly passing down the "who do you
think you are?" legacy of parenting.***
Yes, natural limitation will often allow for not using the word,"No.". But
using the word, "No." doesn't always have to be arbitrary.
My children have asked me on occasion to just give them an answer. They can
get exhausted
by my desire to explore, or have them explore, every option. Sometimes they
want to just have someone give them an answer and be "lazy" about things. I
can relate to this and see no harm in it.
***And kids don't need to hear "no" so they can learn to say "no." Kid's
need
to have their choices respected. It's that simple.***
If they never hear it, I find it hard to believe they will ever learn to say
it and use it when
it is exactly what they mean.
***They need to be free to NOT hug Aunt Martha, to NOT wave bye-bye to Mr.
Jones, to NOT kiss Grandpa,to NOT have to stay at Grandma's if they don't
want to. They need to be
free to listen to their own instincts about people and places and they need
to be able to say "no" to foods they don't like, and ideas they don't agree
with. That's how they will have the confidence to say "no" when they are
older.***
Aunt Martha and the rest of the family may need to hear ,"No.". Again, if
children don't
learn to hear it used in the appropriate context, they won't know to use it
that way.
Most people are not familiar with the autonomous, unschooled ideas. My
children
have learned that most people have to be spoken to in a language they
understand. And,"No." is part of it.
***Equating unschooling with neglect is not helpful. Parents who leave
kids
on their own, to figure things out for themselves and who are not examples
of thoughtful, honest maturity are not unschooling.***
I never even implied that they were neglectful, that comment was in poor
taste.
I wasn't left on my own to figure things out for myself at all times. But
sometimes
the natural consequences were the best teacher.
***Unschooling parents need to be involved with their kids, to be helpful
and empowering so that
long before their kids are out on their own they have the skills they need
to get along well. Those skills are developed in a home where parents are
examples of good decision making and thoughtful consideration of others.
It's not about how often a kid hears "no."***
I agree.
***This site is by a bunch of folks whose baseline is schooled kids.
They're
starting from a population who's psychology has already been altered by
school.***
I disagree. I'm part of this bunch and I don't use schooled kids as a
baseline. And I
am aware of many others who quietly agree with me. (No need to out
yourselves ladies.)
Schooled kids are a huge number of people with vast variations. I don't
know
how anyone could call that a baseline. But to each his own.
I understand your using ,"No." from an arbitrary negative response and
"schooled" kids
as your baseline. I am not. So I guess we are addressing this from to
different views.
I will consider your thoughts on it and appreciate your opinion. I think we
all gain from
sharing our experiences.
Kindest regards,
Wildflower
_________________________________________________________________
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responses to kid requests."***
I'm was unschooled from age 12 on and have now unschooled my children
for 15 years. "No." has a vast number of meanings given the context in which
it is said.
But I haven't read the book, so I'm not aware of how he was using it.
***Children are showered in negativity from their
parents and other adults who believe children must be made to understand the
world is tough, life is hard and you can't have everything you want.***
I know some children are treated that way, but that is a big generalization.
My kids aren't even close to being treated that way. And I know kids who
attend public school, private school, and more traditional homeschoolers who
also don't live
like that.
***But we've had generation after generation of children raised that way and
now we have a citizenry of depressed, disordered, unhappy, dysfunctional
miserable people.***
Again, IMHO, that is a big generalization, but I think your right that it
certainly
contributes to people like the above.
***Kids don't need to hear "No" so that they can learn about life. Life
will
present it's own natural limitations. Family situations will sometimes
present natural limitations. Location can present natural limitations to
something a kid might want to do. Kids don't need arbitrary limitations
placed on them by people who are thoughtlessly passing down the "who do you
think you are?" legacy of parenting.***
Yes, natural limitation will often allow for not using the word,"No.". But
using the word, "No." doesn't always have to be arbitrary.
My children have asked me on occasion to just give them an answer. They can
get exhausted
by my desire to explore, or have them explore, every option. Sometimes they
want to just have someone give them an answer and be "lazy" about things. I
can relate to this and see no harm in it.
***And kids don't need to hear "no" so they can learn to say "no." Kid's
need
to have their choices respected. It's that simple.***
If they never hear it, I find it hard to believe they will ever learn to say
it and use it when
it is exactly what they mean.
***They need to be free to NOT hug Aunt Martha, to NOT wave bye-bye to Mr.
Jones, to NOT kiss Grandpa,to NOT have to stay at Grandma's if they don't
want to. They need to be
free to listen to their own instincts about people and places and they need
to be able to say "no" to foods they don't like, and ideas they don't agree
with. That's how they will have the confidence to say "no" when they are
older.***
Aunt Martha and the rest of the family may need to hear ,"No.". Again, if
children don't
learn to hear it used in the appropriate context, they won't know to use it
that way.
Most people are not familiar with the autonomous, unschooled ideas. My
children
have learned that most people have to be spoken to in a language they
understand. And,"No." is part of it.
***Equating unschooling with neglect is not helpful. Parents who leave
kids
on their own, to figure things out for themselves and who are not examples
of thoughtful, honest maturity are not unschooling.***
I never even implied that they were neglectful, that comment was in poor
taste.
I wasn't left on my own to figure things out for myself at all times. But
sometimes
the natural consequences were the best teacher.
***Unschooling parents need to be involved with their kids, to be helpful
and empowering so that
long before their kids are out on their own they have the skills they need
to get along well. Those skills are developed in a home where parents are
examples of good decision making and thoughtful consideration of others.
It's not about how often a kid hears "no."***
I agree.
***This site is by a bunch of folks whose baseline is schooled kids.
They're
starting from a population who's psychology has already been altered by
school.***
I disagree. I'm part of this bunch and I don't use schooled kids as a
baseline. And I
am aware of many others who quietly agree with me. (No need to out
yourselves ladies.)
Schooled kids are a huge number of people with vast variations. I don't
know
how anyone could call that a baseline. But to each his own.
I understand your using ,"No." from an arbitrary negative response and
"schooled" kids
as your baseline. I am not. So I guess we are addressing this from to
different views.
I will consider your thoughts on it and appreciate your opinion. I think we
all gain from
sharing our experiences.
Kindest regards,
Wildflower
_________________________________________________________________
Your Hotmail address already works to sign into Windows Live Messenger! Get
it now
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[email protected]
I understand your using ,"No." from an arbitrary negative response and
"schooled" kids
as your baseline
********
I think that the poster was saying that the book's website was starting from that baseline and that we, as unschoolers, are not.
Elissa Jill
OTN:
silk/wool blend tie front mini sweater
http://mystikmusings.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"schooled" kids
as your baseline
********
I think that the poster was saying that the book's website was starting from that baseline and that we, as unschoolers, are not.
Elissa Jill
OTN:
silk/wool blend tie front mini sweater
http://mystikmusings.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
<<***This site is by a bunch of folks whose baseline is schooled kids.
They're starting from a population who's psychology has already been
altered by
school.***>>
***I disagree. I'm part of this bunch and I don't use schooled kids as a
baseline. And I
am aware of many others who quietly agree with me. (No need to out
yourselves ladies.)
Schooled kids are a huge number of people with vast variations. I don't
know
how anyone could call that a baseline. But to each his own.***
Sorry that was confusing for you: I was referring to this site:
http://www.mediafamily.org/ The site that was the topic of the thread
"kids need to hear no from parents."
The site posted to this list for discussion.
The people running that program use schooled kids as their baseline.
They're basing all their observations and conclusions on schooled kids.
Deb Lewis
They're starting from a population who's psychology has already been
altered by
school.***>>
***I disagree. I'm part of this bunch and I don't use schooled kids as a
baseline. And I
am aware of many others who quietly agree with me. (No need to out
yourselves ladies.)
Schooled kids are a huge number of people with vast variations. I don't
know
how anyone could call that a baseline. But to each his own.***
Sorry that was confusing for you: I was referring to this site:
http://www.mediafamily.org/ The site that was the topic of the thread
"kids need to hear no from parents."
The site posted to this list for discussion.
The people running that program use schooled kids as their baseline.
They're basing all their observations and conclusions on schooled kids.
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
***"No." has a vast number of meanings given the context in which
it is said.***
The website referenced in the post to this list is about saying no to
children as in denying children the things they want, as in "tell them NO
for their own good." What are some of the vast meanings within that
context?
***Again, if children don't learn to hear it used in the appropriate
context, they won't know to use it
that way.***
I can think of no situation in which a hearing, English speaking child would
never hear the word "no." Are you really saying you believe children must
be told "no" in order to understand the meaning of the word ?
Deb Lewis
it is said.***
The website referenced in the post to this list is about saying no to
children as in denying children the things they want, as in "tell them NO
for their own good." What are some of the vast meanings within that
context?
***Again, if children don't learn to hear it used in the appropriate
context, they won't know to use it
that way.***
I can think of no situation in which a hearing, English speaking child would
never hear the word "no." Are you really saying you believe children must
be told "no" in order to understand the meaning of the word ?
Deb Lewis
Wildflower Car
AHHH! Got it! I deleted that email already. I understand, I obviously
thought you were referring to this group. Duh, sorry!
Your Hotmail address already works to sign into Windows Live Messenger! Get
it now
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thought you were referring to this group. Duh, sorry!
>From: "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: "unschoolingbasics" <[email protected]>
>Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: No
>Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:55:52 -0700
>
><<***This site is by a bunch of folks whose baseline is schooled kids.
>They're starting from a population who's psychology has already been
>altered by
>school.***>>
>
>***I disagree. I'm part of this bunch and I don't use schooled kids as a
>baseline. And I
>am aware of many others who quietly agree with me. (No need to out
>yourselves ladies.)
>Schooled kids are a huge number of people with vast variations. I don't
>know
>how anyone could call that a baseline. But to each his own.***
>
>Sorry that was confusing for you: I was referring to this site:
>http://www.mediafamily.org/ The site that was the topic of the thread
>"kids need to hear no from parents."
>
>The site posted to this list for discussion.
>
>The people running that program use schooled kids as their baseline.
>They're basing all their observations and conclusions on schooled kids.
>
>Deb Lewis
>
>
Your Hotmail address already works to sign into Windows Live Messenger! Get
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