lpodietz

Hi,

I'm pretty new to this list, and to unschooling, having just begun
this endeavor with my son in his 8th grade year. I have been
lurking here, following discussions, trying to gain pearls of wisdom
to help me open my mind to this very different way of thinking.
Aaron (ds) led us to unschooling (he was unwilling and unable to put
up with school any longer, and our research of options led us here--
it was the ONLY option that made sense to Aaron)... it was not
something that I would have chosen for my children without having
been "backed into the corner" that we found ourselves in with Aaron,
because I work, I love to work and financially speaking, I need to
work. Nevertheless, here I find myself, with an older daughter in
11th grade in public school, flourishing and happy and completely
overloaded with work and pressure unbefitting to any human being....
yet she handles it and by "normal" standards is very successful...
and Aaron who looks at school as a complete waste of time (he has
always been wise beyond his years), and who is compelled towards
this very different approach, and completely and totally relieved
that he never has to go back to that awful, absurd place called
school (unless he chooses to).
And then there's me, who runs a very busy home-based business, who
works long hours (I am the chief bread-winner of the family...my
husband is a Middle School science teacher), and who feels very
conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can't give Aaron the
attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
journey. I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off the
computer, to get him to do something "constructive"... my mind
understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic impulses
are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in this
process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I'm just
describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).
I guess I'm looking for some moral support from other parents,
particularly from parents with teens... particularly from parents
who have perhaps not been unschooling from "day one" and perhaps
have experienced some of this conflict. Unlike many who post here,
I am not completely opposed to traditional schooling for some kids,
as flawed as it is. It definitely works for my daughter, and as I
mentioned in another post, I couldn't pay her to leave school. My
husband teaches very poor, inner city kids, whose parents do not
have the luxury of unschooling their children, who are barely
getting by, and whose kids desperately need a caring role model.
School, as dysfunctional as it is, may be the only place where they
experience a spark of hope. Some families for whom I have the
utmost respect and admiration send their children to public school,
and their kids are curious, full of life and brilliant, each in
their own way. I just don't think there are any absolutes in this
world, and there is much to be learned in every situation.
So, I'm led down this new road by my wise, independent-thinking,
wonderful son, and I'm having trouble letting go of the reigns and
of my old way of thinking. Something in me doesn't WANT to let go
(yes, my kids will tell you I'm a control freak)... yet I know that
I need to.
One more thing I'd like to ask of anyone who wants to respond...
what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? I would very
much like to gather a mental picture "gallery" of days in the lives
of various unschooled teens, to help me to understand, accept, open
myself to possibilities, to find out where this journey can lead.
Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any thoughts.

Linda

Shields

My 13 yod is on the computer for hours at a time, playing Neopets, writing,
working on web pages. She also riders her bike and scooter, takes her
brother to the park, does numerous, various and sundry craft projects, reads
for hours, runs errands with me, or stays home with her brother, watches
some tv, but not a whole lot. She is mostly self-directed, though we'll do
projects together and I'm often needed as the resource person. However, at
this age you can easily get a lot of work done at home while your teen does
his own thing.

Kristin



_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of lpodietz
One more thing I'd like to ask of anyone who wants to respond...
what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? I would very
much like to gather a mental picture "gallery" of days in the lives
of various unschooled teens, to help me to understand, accept, open
myself to possibilities, to find out where this journey can lead.
Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any thoughts.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vicki

Hi Linda,

Sounds like you have a lot going on. I'm probably not the best one
here to answer you, but figured I would since we have a bit in
common. I also have a 16yo daughter, 11th grade, AP program public
school, who is thriving. My step-daughter, 14, 9th grade, public
school is choosing to fail. We will be pulling her out after grades
are posted (need the proof for her mother)

I am new to the unschooling which I have been doing for about two
months with my 8yo son with great results. He is highly gifted and
just didn't fit the school mold. Unschooling is perfect for him.
(And I guess we use the same thoughts for the others, they just
choose to be in school as they like the school.) As for the 14yo, I
am interested, also, to hear the answers. We would be 'forcing' her
out of public school as she would prefer to fail and just 'hang-out'
for the social aspects.

Vicki

--- In [email protected], "lpodietz" <lpodietz@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm pretty new to this list, and to unschooling, having just begun
> this endeavor with my son in his 8th grade year. I have been
> lurking here, following discussions, trying to gain pearls of
wisdom
> to help me open my mind to this very different way of thinking.
> Aaron (ds) led us to unschooling (he was unwilling and unable to
put
> up with school any longer, and our research of options led us here-
-
> it was the ONLY option that made sense to Aaron)... it was not
> something that I would have chosen for my children without having
> been "backed into the corner" that we found ourselves in with
Aaron,
> because I work, I love to work and financially speaking, I need to
> work. Nevertheless, here I find myself, with an older daughter in
> 11th grade in public school, flourishing and happy and completely
> overloaded with work and pressure unbefitting to any human
being....
> yet she handles it and by "normal" standards is very successful...
> and Aaron who looks at school as a complete waste of time (he has
> always been wise beyond his years), and who is compelled towards
> this very different approach, and completely and totally relieved
> that he never has to go back to that awful, absurd place called
> school (unless he chooses to).
> And then there's me, who runs a very busy home-based business, who
> works long hours (I am the chief bread-winner of the family...my
> husband is a Middle School science teacher), and who feels very
> conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can't give Aaron
the
> attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
> journey. I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off
the
> computer, to get him to do something "constructive"... my mind
> understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic
impulses
> are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in
this
> process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
> be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I'm just
> describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).
> I guess I'm looking for some moral support from other parents,
> particularly from parents with teens... particularly from parents
> who have perhaps not been unschooling from "day one" and perhaps
> have experienced some of this conflict. Unlike many who post
here,
> I am not completely opposed to traditional schooling for some
kids,
> as flawed as it is. It definitely works for my daughter, and as I
> mentioned in another post, I couldn't pay her to leave school. My
> husband teaches very poor, inner city kids, whose parents do not
> have the luxury of unschooling their children, who are barely
> getting by, and whose kids desperately need a caring role model.
> School, as dysfunctional as it is, may be the only place where
they
> experience a spark of hope. Some families for whom I have the
> utmost respect and admiration send their children to public
school,
> and their kids are curious, full of life and brilliant, each in
> their own way. I just don't think there are any absolutes in this
> world, and there is much to be learned in every situation.
> So, I'm led down this new road by my wise, independent-thinking,
> wonderful son, and I'm having trouble letting go of the reigns and
> of my old way of thinking. Something in me doesn't WANT to let go
> (yes, my kids will tell you I'm a control freak)... yet I know
that
> I need to.
> One more thing I'd like to ask of anyone who wants to respond...
> what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? I would
very
> much like to gather a mental picture "gallery" of days in the
lives
> of various unschooled teens, to help me to understand, accept,
open
> myself to possibilities, to find out where this journey can lead.
> Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any thoughts.
>
> Linda
>

[email protected]

Vicki,
If you are "forcing" your stop-daughter to leave school, I expect you may have a tough row to hoe, as they say. I "forced" my older daughter out of the eight grade halfway through the year, but she was not failing. I found out what REALLY went on in the school, and it was not consistent with my value system, and then my daughter was involved in a retaliation incident against a boy accused of some major sexual harrassment against her best friend. (long story, dont need to go into it here, but suffice it to say I dont know how all that happened did so under the teachers nose) I thought I was doing what was best for her, and giving back control of her life to her, but she refused to get involved in homeschooling and became very depressed. There were some good things that came out of it, and I did like some of the positive changes I saw in her over the 7 months she was out of that environment, but her resistance to it was a major obstacle. I talked with other parents who had the same t
hing going on, meaning they decided to pull their teenagers out for various reasons against the teenagers wishes, and the ones that stuck it out said it took a very long time before the teenagers came around to unschooling or homeschooling voluntarily. One parent told me that the local high school was so bad that staying home and doing nothing was an improvement over sending her kids there, even though they rebelled by refusing to do anything but watch TV and complain about how she ruined their lives. She just let them lay around for a year and then they realized that they owned their own lives (her words) and they got up and got motivated. So with your daughter, dont expect it to go smoothly if this is against her wishes. I am lucky that my current situation is different-my youngest daughter chooses to unschool so I am fortunate in that respect. I dont have any great advice for you, but you might try and involve your step-daughter as much as possible in deciding how she is going t
o unschool or homeschool.
Kathryn

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Vicki" <vickisue_gray@...>
Hi Linda,

Sounds like you have a lot going on. I'm probably not the best one
here to answer you, but figured I would since we have a bit in
common. I also have a 16yo daughter, 11th grade, AP program public
school, who is thriving. My step-daughter, 14, 9th grade, public
school is choosing to fail. We will be pulling her out after grades
are posted (need the proof for her mother)

I am new to the unschooling which I have been doing for about two
months with my 8yo son with great results. He is highly gifted and
just didn't fit the school mold. Unschooling is perfect for him.
(And I guess we use the same thoughts for the others, they just
choose to be in school as they like the school.) As for the 14yo, I
am interested, also, to hear the answers. We would be 'forcing' her
out of public school as she would prefer to fail and just 'hang-out'
for the social aspects.

Vicki

--- In [email protected], "lpodietz" <lpodietz@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm pretty new to this list, and to unschooling, having just begun
> this endeavor with my son in his 8th grade year. I have been
> lurking here, following discussions, trying to gain pearls of
wisdom
> to help me open my mind to this very different way of thinking.
> Aaron (ds) led us to unschooling (he was unwilling and unable to
put
> up with school any longer, and our research of options led us here-
-
> it was the ONLY option that made sense to Aaron)... it was not
> something that I would have chosen for my children without having
> been "backed into the corner" that we found ourselves in with
Aaron,
> because I work, I love to work and financially speaking, I need to
> work. Nevertheless, here I find myself, with an older daughter in
> 11th grade in public school, flourishing and happy and completely
> overloaded with work and pressure unbefitting to any human
being....
> yet she handles it and by "normal" standards is very successful...
> and Aaron who looks at school as a complete waste of time (he has
> always been wise beyond his years), and who is compelled towards
> this very different approach, and completely and totally relieved
> that he never has to go back to that awful, absurd place called
> school (unless he chooses to).
> And then there's me, who runs a very busy home-based business, who
> works long hours (I am the chief bread-winner of the family...my
> husband is a Middle School science teacher), and who feels very
> conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can't give Aaron
the
> attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
> journey. I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off
the
> computer, to get him to do something "constructive"... my mind
> understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic
impulses
> are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in
this
> process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
> be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I'm just
> describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).
> I guess I'm looking for some moral support from other parents,
> particularly from parents with teens... particularly from parents
> who have perhaps not been unschooling from "day one" and perhaps
> have experienced some of this conflict. Unlike many who post
here,
> I am not completely opposed to traditional schooling for some
kids,
> as flawed as it is. It definitely works for my daughter, and as I
> mentioned in another post, I couldn't pay her to leave school. My
> husband teaches very poor, inner city kids, whose parents do not
> have the luxury of unschooling their children, who are barely
> getting by, and whose kids desperately need a caring role model.
> School, as dysfunctional as it is, may be the only place where
they
> experience a spark of hope. Some families for whom I have the
> utmost respect and admiration send their children to public
school,
> and their kids are curious, full of life and brilliant, each in
> their own way. I just don't think there are any absolutes in this
> world, and there is much to be learned in every situation.
> So, I'm led down this new road by my wise, independent-thinking,
> wonderful son, and I'm having trouble letting go of the reigns and
> of my old way of thinking. Something in me doesn't WANT to let go
> (yes, my kids will tell you I'm a control freak)... yet I know
that
> I need to.
> One more thing I'd like to ask of anyone who wants to respond...
> what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? I would
very
> much like to gather a mental picture "gallery" of days in the
lives
> of various unschooled teens, to help me to understand, accept,
open
> myself to possibilities, to find out where this journey can lead.
> Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any thoughts.
>
> Linda
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vickisue Gray

Thanks. That's pretty much what I've been saying, too. It's her life and she needs to choose her path. Her dad, my spouse, has told her that if she refuses to bring her grades up, he will put her in homeschool. I see this as a problem for just the reasons you stated and she could make unschooling unpleasent for my 8yo who is enjoying it.

I have tried to reason with her to get her to do something, but she just chooses to do nothing. That's why she's failing. It will be interesting to look back in a few years and see how it all pans out. I have warned her that her father isn't kidding and where we live, unless we take the kids to meet other kids, they are in total isolation. The end of her social life as he won't let her online either.

Vicki


airokat@... wrote:
Vicki,
If you are "forcing" your stop-daughter to leave school, I expect you may have a tough row to hoe, as they say. I "forced" my older daughter out of the eight grade halfway through the year, but she was not failing. I found out what REALLY went on in the school, and it was not consistent with my value system, and then my daughter was involved in a retaliation incident against a boy accused of some major sexual harrassment against her best friend. (long story, dont need to go into it here, but suffice it to say I dont know how all that happened did so under the teachers nose) I thought I was doing what was best for her, and giving back control of her life to her, but she refused to get involved in homeschooling and became very depressed. There were some good things that came out of it, and I did like some of the positive changes I saw in her over the 7 months she was out of that environment, but her resistance to it was a major obstacle. I talked with other parents who had
the same t
hing going on, meaning they decided to pull their teenagers out for various reasons against the teenagers wishes, and the ones that stuck it out said it took a very long time before the teenagers came around to unschooling or homeschooling voluntarily. One parent told me that the local high school was so bad that staying home and doing nothing was an improvement over sending her kids there, even though they rebelled by refusing to do anything but watch TV and complain about how she ruined their lives. She just let them lay around for a year and then they realized that they owned their own lives (her words) and they got up and got motivated. So with your daughter, dont expect it to go smoothly if this is against her wishes. I am lucky that my current situation is different-my youngest daughter chooses to unschool so I am fortunate in that respect. I dont have any great advice for you, but you might try and involve your step-daughter as much as possible in deciding how she is
going t
o unschool or homeschool.
Kathryn

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Vicki" <vickisue_gray@...>
Hi Linda,

Sounds like you have a lot going on. I'm probably not the best one
here to answer you, but figured I would since we have a bit in
common. I also have a 16yo daughter, 11th grade, AP program public
school, who is thriving. My step-daughter, 14, 9th grade, public
school is choosing to fail. We will be pulling her out after grades
are posted (need the proof for her mother)

I am new to the unschooling which I have been doing for about two
months with my 8yo son with great results. He is highly gifted and
just didn't fit the school mold. Unschooling is perfect for him.
(And I guess we use the same thoughts for the others, they just
choose to be in school as they like the school.) As for the 14yo, I
am interested, also, to hear the answers. We would be 'forcing' her
out of public school as she would prefer to fail and just 'hang-out'
for the social aspects.

Vicki

--- In [email protected], "lpodietz" <lpodietz@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm pretty new to this list, and to unschooling, having just begun
> this endeavor with my son in his 8th grade year. I have been
> lurking here, following discussions, trying to gain pearls of
wisdom
> to help me open my mind to this very different way of thinking.
> Aaron (ds) led us to unschooling (he was unwilling and unable to
put
> up with school any longer, and our research of options led us here-
-
> it was the ONLY option that made sense to Aaron)... it was not
> something that I would have chosen for my children without having
> been "backed into the corner" that we found ourselves in with
Aaron,
> because I work, I love to work and financially speaking, I need to
> work. Nevertheless, here I find myself, with an older daughter in
> 11th grade in public school, flourishing and happy and completely
> overloaded with work and pressure unbefitting to any human
being....
> yet she handles it and by "normal" standards is very successful...
> and Aaron who looks at school as a complete waste of time (he has
> always been wise beyond his years), and who is compelled towards
> this very different approach, and completely and totally relieved
> that he never has to go back to that awful, absurd place called
> school (unless he chooses to).
> And then there's me, who runs a very busy home-based business, who
> works long hours (I am the chief bread-winner of the family...my
> husband is a Middle School science teacher), and who feels very
> conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can't give Aaron
the
> attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
> journey. I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off
the
> computer, to get him to do something "constructive"... my mind
> understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic
impulses
> are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in
this
> process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
> be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I'm just
> describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).
> I guess I'm looking for some moral support from other parents,
> particularly from parents with teens... particularly from parents
> who have perhaps not been unschooling from "day one" and perhaps
> have experienced some of this conflict. Unlike many who post
here,
> I am not completely opposed to traditional schooling for some
kids,
> as flawed as it is. It definitely works for my daughter, and as I
> mentioned in another post, I couldn't pay her to leave school. My
> husband teaches very poor, inner city kids, whose parents do not
> have the luxury of unschooling their children, who are barely
> getting by, and whose kids desperately need a caring role model.
> School, as dysfunctional as it is, may be the only place where
they
> experience a spark of hope. Some families for whom I have the
> utmost respect and admiration send their children to public
school,
> and their kids are curious, full of life and brilliant, each in
> their own way. I just don't think there are any absolutes in this
> world, and there is much to be learned in every situation.
> So, I'm led down this new road by my wise, independent-thinking,
> wonderful son, and I'm having trouble letting go of the reigns and
> of my old way of thinking. Something in me doesn't WANT to let go
> (yes, my kids will tell you I'm a control freak)... yet I know
that
> I need to.
> One more thing I'd like to ask of anyone who wants to respond...
> what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? I would
very
> much like to gather a mental picture "gallery" of days in the
lives
> of various unschooled teens, to help me to understand, accept,
open
> myself to possibilities, to find out where this journey can lead.
> Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any thoughts.
>
> Linda
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

susangould1

I am new to homeschooling (unschooling)as well. This is our 2nd
week. I just pulled them out of school. I do not have a teenager
but a 8yr old daughter and a 5yr son. But I am struggling
with "wrapping my head around" the whole unschooling thing. When I
read about it I understand and it makes a ton of sense. But we are
so programed by the 'system' that public school is the right way to
do things. I know it works for a lot of kids out there but it also
fails a lot of kids. It is so hard to trust that the kids will be
OK when they are not being forced to do math sheets and to follow a
curriculum. That they will, on their own time, eventually find a
passion for learning and run with it. I have recently met a mother
who took her son out of school at age 10. It took him 9 months to
deschool(play, do nothing, etc..) Now he is taking University
courses at age 15! So we just have to wait and trust in our kids!
Hard as it is. When I get doubtful, either because of my own
thoughts or other peoples comments, I think of all the other
successful unschoolers out there.

Good Luck








--- In [email protected], "lpodietz" <lpodietz@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm pretty new to this list, and to unschooling, having just begun
> this endeavor with my son in his 8th grade year. I have been
> lurking here, following discussions, trying to gain pearls of
wisdom
> to help me open my mind to this very different way of thinking.
> Aaron (ds) led us to unschooling (he was unwilling and unable to
put
> up with school any longer, and our research of options led us here-
-
> it was the ONLY option that made sense to Aaron)... it was not
> something that I would have chosen for my children without having
> been "backed into the corner" that we found ourselves in with
Aaron,
> because I work, I love to work and financially speaking, I need to
> work. Nevertheless, here I find myself, with an older daughter in
> 11th grade in public school, flourishing and happy and completely
> overloaded with work and pressure unbefitting to any human
being....
> yet she handles it and by "normal" standards is very successful...
> and Aaron who looks at school as a complete waste of time (he has
> always been wise beyond his years), and who is compelled towards
> this very different approach, and completely and totally relieved
> that he never has to go back to that awful, absurd place called
> school (unless he chooses to).
> And then there's me, who runs a very busy home-based business, who
> works long hours (I am the chief bread-winner of the family...my
> husband is a Middle School science teacher), and who feels very
> conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can't give Aaron
the
> attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
> journey. I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off
the
> computer, to get him to do something "constructive"... my mind
> understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic
impulses
> are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in
this
> process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
> be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I'm just
> describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).
> I guess I'm looking for some moral support from other parents,
> particularly from parents with teens... particularly from parents
> who have perhaps not been unschooling from "day one" and perhaps
> have experienced some of this conflict. Unlike many who post
here,
> I am not completely opposed to traditional schooling for some
kids,
> as flawed as it is. It definitely works for my daughter, and as I
> mentioned in another post, I couldn't pay her to leave school. My
> husband teaches very poor, inner city kids, whose parents do not
> have the luxury of unschooling their children, who are barely
> getting by, and whose kids desperately need a caring role model.
> School, as dysfunctional as it is, may be the only place where
they
> experience a spark of hope. Some families for whom I have the
> utmost respect and admiration send their children to public
school,
> and their kids are curious, full of life and brilliant, each in
> their own way. I just don't think there are any absolutes in this
> world, and there is much to be learned in every situation.
> So, I'm led down this new road by my wise, independent-thinking,
> wonderful son, and I'm having trouble letting go of the reigns and
> of my old way of thinking. Something in me doesn't WANT to let go
> (yes, my kids will tell you I'm a control freak)... yet I know
that
> I need to.
> One more thing I'd like to ask of anyone who wants to respond...
> what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? I would
very
> much like to gather a mental picture "gallery" of days in the
lives
> of various unschooled teens, to help me to understand, accept,
open
> myself to possibilities, to find out where this journey can lead.
> Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any thoughts.
>
> Linda
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: vickisue_gray@...

We would be 'forcing' her
out of public school as she would prefer to fail and just 'hang-out'
for the social aspects.

-=-=-=-

Forcing a child to unchool is no better than forcing a child to go to
school.

Have you given her Guerrilla Learning and The Teenage Liberation
handbook?

~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: vickisue_gray@...

Thanks. That's pretty much what I've been saying, too. It's her
life and she
needs to choose her path. Her dad, my spouse, has told her that if she
refuses
to bring her grades up, he will put her in homeschool.
-=-=-=-=-

That's an empty threat. Having her home woudln't make her grades go up
either. It *could* make her very resentful!

-=-=-=-=-


I see this as a problem
for just the reasons you stated and she could make unschooling
unpleasent for my
8yo who is enjoying it.

-=-=-=-=-

Not to mention *that*.

-=-=-=-=-

I have tried to reason with her to get her to do something, but she
just
chooses to do nothing. That's why she's failing.

-=-=-=-

What "something" do you think she needs to do?

What do you think she's "failing" exactly? School? Socialization? Life?

-=-=-=-=-

It will be interesting to
look back in a few years and see how it all pans out. I have warned
her that
her father isn't kidding and where we live, unless we take the kids to
meet
other kids, they are in total isolation.

--=-=-=-=-

It IS a threat then. She needs *more* options, not less. She's being
shut down at every turn. She has NOwhere to go. Nowhere at all.

You're setting up a no-win situation. She's only going to get unhappier
and unhappier.

-=-=-=-=-

The end of her social life as he won't let her online either.

-=-=-=-

Does he understand unschooling? AT this point in her life, the
socialization issue may be the ONLY thing that's important to her.

Cutting *that* part of her life out too could cause her to shut down
completely.

~Kelly
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-----Original Message-----
From: lpodietz@...

And then there's me, who runs a very busy home-based business, who
works long hours (I am the chief bread-winner of the family...my
husband is a Middle School science teacher), and who feels very
conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can't give Aaron the
attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
journey.

-=-=-=-

He *does* need a lot of attention---but less than he might if he
weren't choosing this path. How much attention do you give him per day
*now* while he's IN school?

-=-=-=-=-=-

I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off the
computer, to get him to do something "constructive"...

-=-=-=-

Uh oh. Please consider his compter time as VERY constructive! *MY*
computer time certainly is. Is yours???

-=-=-=-=-

my mind
understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic impulses
are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in this
process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I'm just
describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).

-=-=-=-

I understand---and I've been there too.

-=-=-==-

I guess I'm looking for some moral support from other parents,
particularly from parents with teens... particularly from parents
who have perhaps not been unschooling from "day one" and perhaps
have experienced some of this conflict.

-=-=-=-=-

Cameron came out of a private college prep school at the end of sixth
grade with eight years there (pre-school and kindergarten). He spent 18
months of doing "nothing" while deschooling. Now there are not enough
hours in the day for him to fit in all he wants to do! He's 18 and
loves his life!

-=-=-=-=-

My husband teaches very poor, inner city kids, whose parents do not
have the luxury of unschooling their children, who are barely
getting by, and whose kids desperately need a caring role model.
School, as dysfunctional as it is, may be the only place where they
experience a spark of hope.

-=-=-=

Yep---but that isn't our audience. Children in abusive, neglectful,
dysfunctional families may indeed find solace and inspiration in
school. We're not them. Our homes are overflowing with love and fun and
trust and respect and---well, all those things that they're NOT. I'm
assuming you're not describing your home either.

-=-=-=-=-=-


So, I'm led down this new road by my wise, independent-thinking,
wonderful son, and I'm having trouble letting go of the reigns and
of my old way of thinking. Something in me doesn't WANT to let go
(yes, my kids will tell you I'm a control freak)... yet I know that
I need to.

-=-=-=-=-

Yeah---Go control something else. They're are plenty of things out
there just begging to be controlled. I seek to control a conference and
my garden! Try NOT to aim that control at your kids! <bwg>

-=-=-=-=-

One more thing I'd like to ask of anyone who wants to respond...
what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? I would very
much like to gather a mental picture "gallery" of days in the lives
of various unschooled teens, to help me to understand, accept, open
myself to possibilities, to find out where this journey can lead.

-=-=-=-=-

Today, Cameron helped me clean the garage out and set a few things
aside for Freecycle. He talked on the phone with his girlfriend, and I
helped her with a paper she's working on in college. He jumped on the
trampoline with his brother for a while---a lot of that time is spent
just sitting and talking too! <g> He played on the computer a bit---I
assume e-mailing friends---especially new ones from NBTSCamp. He
emptied the dishwasher and started a load of laundry. He's been playing
his drums since 1:00-ish. It's almost 5:00 now. He usually puts in 4-6
hours/day on the drums when he can. He'll be in soon to help me wih
supper. We meant to start shagging (a SC dance for those who are
wondering! <G>) today, but haven't gotten around to it. (He learned
West Coast Swing at camp and has asked to learn how to shag and
waltz---we were going tot do that today, but haven't yet---maybe
later). He'll eat with us and probably get back on the computer this
evening. He's usually the first in bed every night unless he's playing
the drums for work---then he comes in after midnight.

Yesterday was more "eventful" since he just got back in town after a
week in Vermont. He was catching up on phone calls and doing a lot of
running around and making appointments.

He's been gone most of these last six weeks. He house-sits a lot, so
he's often gone with that. He went to NBTSCamp in Oregon, came home and
left again for two weeks for the Albuquerque conference and our trip to
the Grand Canyon, came home and drove to Vermont for that NBTSCamp.
I've missed him! <g>

Specific questions?

~Kelly















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-----Original Message-----
From: ggould1@...


It is so hard to trust that the kids will be
OK when they are not being forced to do math sheets and to follow a
curriculum.

-=-=-=

Why?

I mean---really ask yourself WHY?

Why would kids who are forced to do math sheets and follow a curriculum
be more OK than kids who are not? Why?

-=-=-=-=-

That they will, on their own time, eventually find a
passion for learning and run with it.

-=-=-=-

Well, first of all, they are BORN with that passion for learning.
Schools (and often schools-at-home) suck it our of them.

And many of us DO find that passion again---but usually in our
mid-thirties. Haven't you noticed the ages of folks in teh self-help
sections of bookstores and libraries? <bwg>

-=-=-=-=-

I have recently met a mother
who took her son out of school at age 10. It took him 9 months to
deschool(play, do nothing, etc..)

-=-=-=-=-

Essentially he was healing. It only looks like playing and doing
nothing! <g>

My son took 18 months. It's not a pleasant time!

-=-=-=-=-

Now he is taking University courses at age 15!

-=-=-=-

Yeah--but it doesn't always look academic! Be prepared for anything!!!

-=-=-=-=-


So we just have to wait and trust in our kids!
Hard as it is. When I get doubtful, either because of my own
thoughts or other peoples comments, I think of all the other
successful unschoolers out there.

-=-=-=-=-

I can't tell you how mind-boggling the teens at the Live and Learn
Unschooling Conference were/are!!!

It's so much easier to trust in the process when there's some tangible
proof out there! We had a SLEW of them (teens and young adults) at the
conference! They are SOOO COOL!!!

~Kelly






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lpodietz

"How much attention do you give him per day *now* while he's IN
school?"

Not sure what you mean by in school... we are home all day long
together, but I am working furiously and he is doing his thing...I
check in on him quite a lot, and he comes to tell me about things
that amuse, excite or interest him.


"Please consider his compter time as VERY constructive! *MY*
computer time certainly is. Is yours???"


Not always. INERTIA is a dangerous thing, in my opinion. The body
wants to keep doing what it's already doing... and sometimes
computer time can become excessive and pointless just because I'm
too lazy to get up and do something else... But yes, mostly it's
constructive. But people do do destructive things, don't they? Do
I just let my son continue whatever direction he's going, even if
it's leading him down a path the I see as not too great for him?
This is where I go crazy, not knowing what to do as a parent.

"Cameron came out of a private college prep school at the end of
sixth
> grade with eight years there (pre-school and kindergarten). He
spent 18
> months of doing "nothing" while deschooling. Now there are not
enough
> hours in the day for him to fit in all he wants to do! He's 18 and
> loves his life!"

That's encouraging...



"Children in abusive, neglectful,
> dysfunctional families may indeed find solace and inspiration in
> school. We're not them. Our homes are overflowing with love and
fun and
> trust and respect and---well, all those things that they're NOT.
I'm
> assuming you're not describing your home either."

No, I'm not, but not all parents are cut out for this. Even if they
are overflowing with love and fun and trust and respect, perhaps
they also want to pursue a career, or need to work.... Our society
is what it is and it takes a combination of nerve, bravery,
commitment and a certain nature to break the mold. I do not
consider myself cut out for this, by nature, but I am rising to the
occasion because it's right for Aaron.

"Yeah---Go control something else. They're are plenty of things out
> there just begging to be controlled. I seek to control a
conference and
> my garden! Try NOT to aim that control at your kids!"

I'm trying....


Thanks for your responses...Linda
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
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Michelle Leifur Reid

On 10/6/06, susangould1 <ggould1@...> wrote:
But we are
> so programed by the 'system' that public school is the right way to
> do things. I know it works for a lot of kids out there but it also
> fails a lot of kids.

Unschooling fails kids? Hmmm. I think that neglectful parenting
fails kids. A mindful parent who is a partner with their child in
their goals will not fail a kid. I hope you are taking time to
deschool yourself as well as your children.


> It is so hard to trust that the kids will be
> OK when they are not being forced to do math sheets and to follow a
> curriculum. That they will, on their own time, eventually find a
> passion for learning and run with it.

That learning may not be what you have grown up thinking that learning
is. It may look a lot like play or "doing nothing."


> I have recently met a mother
> who took her son out of school at age 10. It took him 9 months to
> deschool(play, do nothing, etc..) Now he is taking University
> courses at age 15!

Is this where he wants to be? Or is this where he thinks he is
supposed to be? :-D Is this where he has been pushed to be?


>So we just have to wait and trust in our kids!
> Hard as it is. When I get doubtful, either because of my own
> thoughts or other peoples comments, I think of all the other
> successful unschoolers out there.
>

I've yet to meet an "Unschool drop out" IOW I have yet to meet a
young adult who was unschooled who is a total "failure." I've had the
fortune of meeting some really cool young adults who were unschooled
and they are living rich beautiful fulfilled lives. They may not look
like "successes" through the eyes of a traditionally schooled person,
but they love their lives and are so happy pursuing their passions.
And I would say half of them never went to college.

Michelle

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: lpodietz@...

"How much attention do you give him per day *now* while he's IN
school?"

Not sure what you mean by in school... we are home all day long
together, but I am working furiously and he is doing his thing...I
check in on him quite a lot, and he comes to tell me about things
that amuse, excite or interest him.
-=-=-=-=-=-

I'm sorry. I thought you recently pulled him out of school. How much
time did you spend with him then? After school? Soccer practice?

At his age, he should be able to self-entertain quite a bit.

But he still needs *you* to provide transportation. He still needs to
bounce ideas off you. He still needs your involvement.

-=-=-=-=-=-


"Please consider his compter time as VERY constructive! *MY*
computer time certainly is. Is yours???"

Not always. INERTIA is a dangerous thing, in my opinion. The body
wants to keep doing what it's already doing... and sometimes
computer time can become excessive and pointless just because I'm
too lazy to get up and do something else... But yes, mostly it's
constructive. But people do do destructive things, don't they? Do
I just let my son continue whatever direction he's going, even if
it's leading him down a path the I see as not too great for him?
This is where I go crazy, not knowing what to do as a parent.

-=-=-=-=-

He's DEschooling though---he needs LOTS of inertia to heal.

*MY* body doesn't want to keep doing what its doing. Does yours? I
mean---if I've been sitting all day, my body yells at me to get UP! Go
DO! Shake it OUT! When I'm out DOing for hours, it screams, "STOP!
Slow DOWN! Take it EASY!"

Happy people don't do destructive things.

Check in with him often. Ask whether he needs a break. Give him a
massage. Take him some freshly baked cookies. Get a trampoline! <g>

Make his life as wonderful and as welcoming as possible. He won't be
trying to *escape*---he'll be trying to get the most out of his life
instead. Keep nagging (assuming you do), and he will do his best to
retreat from you. Accept him and help him, and he'll ask you to join
him and be a part of it.

-=-=-=-=-

"Cameron came out of a private college prep school at the end of
sixth
> grade with eight years there (pre-school and kindergarten). He
spent 18
> months of doing "nothing" while deschooling. Now there are not
enough
> hours in the day for him to fit in all he wants to do! He's 18 and
> loves his life!"

That's encouraging...

-=-=-=-=-=-

It would be even more encouraging if you met him. Just hearing about it
doesn't do him---or unschooling/deschooling---justice. Same for all he
other teens who are thriving. It's just amazing!

And it almost wasn't like this! His life could have been just like all
his friends' lives! I see it that we found unschooling just in time!!!

-=-=-=-=-

No, I'm not, but not all parents are cut out for this.

-=-=-=-=

You're right. Many parents aren't cut out for this. ALL children are
though!!

-=-=-=

Even if they
are overflowing with love and fun and trust and respect, perhaps
they also want to pursue a career, or need to work....

-=-=-=-=-

Well, unfortuantely at his age, he doesn't have access to a car. He
NEEDS you. You may be right. THis might not work. But could you make
some changes? Could you change your work hours? Could you hire help?
What can *YOU* do to make his work? What is Aaron willing to do?

-=-=-=-=-

Our society
is what it is and it takes a combination of nerve, bravery,
commitment and a certain nature to break the mold. I do not
consider myself cut out for this, by nature, but I am rising to the
occasion because it's right for Aaron.

-=-=-=-

Good for you.

Maybe Aaron is willing to make some adjustments too?

-=-=-=-=


"Yeah---Go control something else. They're are plenty of things out
> there just begging to be controlled. I seek to control a
conference and
> my garden! Try NOT to aim that control at your kids!"

I'm trying....

-=-=-=-=-

"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." ~Yoda <bwg>

It's doable. It may mean you have to give a few things up. Or tweak
things to fit sideways.

But *just* trying won't do. Actually *doing* is what will work. Deep
breaths. Stopping and thinking before reacting involuntarily.

It's *really* good that he can see you DOING at your work. Too often
children don't see parents DOING---they see things already DONE.
Like---MAGIC!

Do you have the Teenage Liberation Handbook? Have you and he read it?
How about Rue Kreams' Parenting a Free Child? Sandra Dodd's website?
Joyce Fetterroll's?

See him as a whole person NOW---just making his way. Accept him As He
Is Now---and know that he will change and evolve as he grows. Step
back, and yet be *there* with him at the same time.

None of this is easy. Easy is sending them to school and washing your
hands of them! <g> But the relationship is what's of major importance.
Losing your relationship with your son isn't worth whatever else you
think you might be losing.

To whatever question you're struggling with---ask "WHY?" or "WHY NOT?"
Stop and think about it a bit. THEN make a decision.

Good luck!

~Kelly






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lpodietz

" How much
> time did you spend with him then? After school? Soccer practice?
>
> At his age, he should be able to self-entertain quite a bit.
>
> But he still needs *you* to provide transportation. He still needs
to
> bounce ideas off you. He still needs your involvement."

Yes, he is completely self-entertaining, if you want to put it that
way--- very creative and has a lot of interests. He does like to
share with me though, but is very respectful of my work time. I
spend a lot of time with him... we are very close. And yes, I
provide transportation for him, of course... I work at home and plan
my days around whatever he needs to do or wherever he needs to be.
As I always have, for both kids, in school or out. That's not an
issue.



> "He's DEschooling though---he needs LOTS of inertia to heal.
>

> Happy people don't do destructive things."

Now those are two bits of good advice! Thank you.


> "Check in with him often. Ask whether he needs a break. Give him a
> massage. Take him some freshly baked cookies. Get a trampoline!"

We have a trampoline, I do make cookies, I try to keep things
happy... so I guess we're doing OK!

I am excellent at nagging though, so if anyone ever needs lessons,
I'm a pro!.... Fortunately none of us take me too seriously when I
get into that mode.

"You may be right. THis might not work."


I never said this might not work. It will of course work. I have no
intention of sending Aaron back to school---he would whither and die
there. I was just describing some of the conflicts and difficulties
I have, as I find my way through this.


> "Do you have the Teenage Liberation Handbook? Have you and he read
it?
> How about Rue Kreams' Parenting a Free Child? Sandra Dodd's
website?
> Joyce Fetterroll's?"

Two out of four. Aaron doesn't want to read right now, so I read
some chapters to him.


> See him as a whole person NOW---just making his way. Accept him As
He
> Is Now---and know that he will change and evolve as he grows. Step
> back, and yet be *there* with him at the same time."



Thanks... :-)



_____________________________________________________________________
___
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> across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>

susangould1

--- In [email protected], "Michelle Leifur Reid"
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
>
> On 10/6/06, susangould1 <ggould1@...> wrote:
> But we are
> > so programed by the 'system' that public school is the right way
to
> > do things. I know it works for a lot of kids out there but it
also
> > fails a lot of kids.
>
> Unschooling fails kids? Hmmm. I think that neglectful parenting
> fails kids. A mindful parent who is a partner with their child in
> their goals will not fail a kid. I hope you are taking time to
> deschool yourself as well as your children.
>
> ---I meant that the 'system' fails alot of kids not unschooling.---

> > It is so hard to trust that the kids will be
> > OK when they are not being forced to do math sheets and to
follow a
> > curriculum. That they will, on their own time, eventually find a
> > passion for learning and run with it.
>
> That learning may not be what you have grown up thinking that
learning
> is. It may look a lot like play or "doing nothing."
>
> --- You Are right----

> > I have recently met a mother
> > who took her son out of school at age 10. It took him 9 months
to
> > deschool(play, do nothing, etc..) Now he is taking University
> > courses at age 15!
>
> Is this where he wants to be? Or is this where he thinks he is
> supposed to be? :-D Is this where he has been pushed to be?
>
> ---I think this is what he choose because he wants to be a
Physisist.---

> >So we just have to wait and trust in our kids!
> > Hard as it is. When I get doubtful, either because of my own
> > thoughts or other peoples comments, I think of all the other
> > successful unschoolers out there.
> >
>
> I've yet to meet an "Unschool drop out" IOW I have yet to meet a
> young adult who was unschooled who is a total "failure." I've had
the
> fortune of meeting some really cool young adults who were
unschooled
> and they are living rich beautiful fulfilled lives. They may not
look
> like "successes" through the eyes of a traditionally schooled
person,
> but they love their lives and are so happy pursuing their passions.
> And I would say half of them never went to college.
>
---What sort of things do these unschooled young adults do to make a
living and be independant?----


>

Vickisue Gray

My son is 8. Tonight, he came to us needing to figure out how many vehicles of each type he needed for a thousand men, where he had a two to one ratio of warthogs to scorpions.

M = men
S = scorpion (tank that carries 5 men)
W = warthogs (military vehicle carries 3 men)

I'd say he uses math.



kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: ggould1@...

It is so hard to trust that the kids will be
OK when they are not being forced to do math sheets and to follow a
curriculum.

-=-=-=

Why?

I mean---really ask yourself WHY?

Why would kids who are forced to do math sheets and follow a curriculum
be more OK than kids who are not? Why?

-=-=-=-=-

That they will, on their own time, eventually find a
passion for learning and run with it.

-=-=-=-

Well, first of all, they are BORN with that passion for learning.
Schools (and often schools-at-home) suck it our of them.

And many of us DO find that passion again---but usually in our
mid-thirties. Haven't you noticed the ages of folks in teh self-help
sections of bookstores and libraries? <bwg>

-=-=-=-=-

I have recently met a mother
who took her son out of school at age 10. It took him 9 months to
deschool(play, do nothing, etc..)

-=-=-=-=-

Essentially he was healing. It only looks like playing and doing
nothing! <g>

My son took 18 months. It's not a pleasant time!

-=-=-=-=-

Now he is taking University courses at age 15!

-=-=-=-

Yeah--but it doesn't always look academic! Be prepared for anything!!!

-=-=-=-=-

So we just have to wait and trust in our kids!
Hard as it is. When I get doubtful, either because of my own
thoughts or other peoples comments, I think of all the other
successful unschoolers out there.

-=-=-=-=-

I can't tell you how mind-boggling the teens at the Live and Learn
Unschooling Conference were/are!!!

It's so much easier to trust in the process when there's some tangible
proof out there! We had a SLEW of them (teens and young adults) at the
conference! They are SOOO COOL!!!

~Kelly

__________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.






---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vickisue Gray

Once again, I totally agree.

She is a smart girl. She enjoys singing so I have tried hard to encourage her, which worked as she joined the drama class and loves it. I bought her a piano which she loves to play. I was going to sign her up for piano lessons that she real wants, but as I work 4-12 and she's in school 7-3, I can't get her there. (weekends, she's at her mom's and she refuses. Her mother has always refused to let her take classes. Grandma even offer to pay for classes and her older sister, my daughter, offered to drive her her the lessons.

Her Dad and Mom said no if she continued to fail her classes. Piano lessons are a privilege not a right. One earns privileges. Hummm. Needless to say, my spouse and I think differently.

I plan on getting her the harp she asked for, for Christmas. I finally found a student harp that I can afford. She can't say why, she chooses to not do the assignments. She just always has then at the last hour, does her work, and passes each year by the skin of her teeth! Last year she went from a .82 to a 3.14 in four weeks. So it's not that it's too hard She is twice as smart as her class on the standardized testing yet average IQ they say.

Lately, I've sat down with her and told her, all her father can do is make the next four years miserable for all of us. She can comply and he will give her freedom, or she can refuse and she'll be free when she's of age.

I told her I see it differently. My oldest, is taking classes I never had in college. This is their time to learn to fly and still have us as their safety net. I am here to help her discover and become what she would like to be whatever that is. I can't do it for her. I can only help.

Needless to say, very frustrating.



---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vickisue Gray

I will go buy that tomorrow.
Thanks.


kbcdlovejo@... wrote:


-----Original Message-----
From: vickisue_gray@...

We would be 'forcing' her
out of public school as she would prefer to fail and just 'hang-out'
for the social aspects.

-=-=-=-

Forcing a child to unchool is no better than forcing a child to go to
school.

Have you given her Guerrilla Learning and The Teenage Liberation
handbook?

~Kelly
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Linda,
As you know, our situations are very similiar since this is my daughter's first year out of school. She watched her friends go off to High School and missed all the excitement of entering ninth grade. Now she is dealing with the fact that we are moving, which she does not want to do. Nevertheless, she has no interest in going back to school. Since I joined this list, I have found it within me to back off thinking I need to "do" anything to get her to "do anything" that meets anyone's criteria of whats "constructive" other than her own. I am on another list that is for homeschoolers and the ideas there are quite different than the ones here.
How does she spend her days? Sleeping. She stays up all night, and I mean all night, reading or manipulating photos in photoshop. She has read three books in the last two days. We are taking a Digital Photography class at the local community college (meets one night a week) and now she wants to learn to SCUBA dive. I am so excited about that!! I can't wait!!
One thing that helps me see things differently is to keep my records in what someone called "educationese" or something to that effect. I downloaded some free software called HomeschoolTracker and I use it. I keep a reading list, enter field trips, make "assignments" out of stuff she does, for example if she says she read for three hours I enter it into the "Free Reading" assignments section. The software keeps track of all the hours spent doing things and when you look at the overview you see just how much "nothing" your kid is actually doing. And for some reason it satisfies the naysayers in my life. I showed it to my mother and now she is off my back about the whole thing. Funny how when you call something an "assignment" it takes on a whole new connotation. As if doing things you are told to do is somehow learning but doing things voluntarily is not. What a joke. And a sick one at that.
Kathryn

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "lpodietz" <lpodietz@...>
Hi,

I'm pretty new to this list, and to unschooling, having just begun
this endeavor with my son in his 8th grade year. I have been
lurking here, following discussions, trying to gain pearls of wisdom
to help me open my mind to this very different way of thinking.
Aaron (ds) led us to unschooling (he was unwilling and unable to put
up with school any longer, and our research of options led us here--
it was the ONLY option that made sense to Aaron)... it was not
something that I would have chosen for my children without having
been "backed into the corner" that we found ourselves in with Aaron,
because I work, I love to work and financially speaking, I need to
work. Nevertheless, here I find myself, with an older daughter in
11th grade in public school, flourishing and happy and completely
overloaded with work and pressure unbefitting to any human being....
yet she handles it and by "normal" standards is very successful...
and Aaron who looks at school as a complete waste of time (he has
always been wise beyond his years), and who is compelled towards
this very different approach, and completely and totally relieved
that he never has to go back to that awful, absurd place called
school (unless he chooses to).
And then there's me, who runs a very busy home-based business, who
works long hours (I am the chief bread-winner of the family...my
husband is a Middle School science teacher), and who feels very
conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can't give Aaron the
attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
journey. I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off the
computer, to get him to do something "constructive"... my mind
understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic impulses
are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in this
process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I'm just
describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).
I guess I'm looking for some moral support from other parents,
particularly from parents with teens... particularly from parents
who have perhaps not been unschooling from "day one" and perhaps
have experienced some of this conflict. Unlike many who post here,
I am not completely opposed to traditional schooling for some kids,
as flawed as it is. It definitely works for my daughter, and as I
mentioned in another post, I couldn't pay her to leave school. My
husband teaches very poor, inner city kids, whose parents do not
have the luxury of unschooling their children, who are barely
getting by, and whose kids desperately need a caring role model.
School, as dysfunctional as it is, may be the only place where they
experience a spark of hope. Some families for whom I have the
utmost respect and admiration send their children to public school,
and their kids are curious, full of life and brilliant, each in
their own way. I just don't think there are any absolutes in this
world, and there is much to be learned in every situation.
So, I'm led down this new road by my wise, independent-thinking,
wonderful son, and I'm having trouble letting go of the reigns and
of my old way of thinking. Something in me doesn't WANT to let go
(yes, my kids will tell you I'm a control freak)... yet I know that
I need to.
One more thing I'd like to ask of anyone who wants to respond...
what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? I would very
much like to gather a mental picture "gallery" of days in the lives
of various unschooled teens, to help me to understand, accept, open
myself to possibilities, to find out where this journey can lead.
Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any thoughts.

Linda




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***I have been
lurking here, following discussions, trying to gain pearls of wisdom
to help me open my mind to this very different way of thinking.***

You have probably already found or been offered these links but I'll post
them again because there's so much information at both places.
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

*** and who feels very
conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can't give Aaron the
attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
journey. ***

Your stress levels will decrease as you grow more confident about
unschooling. But as to time with Aaron, weren't you committed to time with
him before you took him out of school? Wasn't his unhappiness at school a
source of stress for you? How did you cope then?
These aren't questions you need to answer on the list but just consider the
possibilities in your life for these or different changes:
Can you work at least part of your shift while he's asleep in the AM or PM?
Can you work when his father is home to hang out with him?
Can you work in chunks, taking time through out the day to do something with
him, go for a walk, play video games, etc. ?
Can you change your hours or get help in order to spend more time with him?
Can you changes jobs?
Can you quit your job or cut back hours?
Can your husband quit or cut back or change?
Can your son have a friend over for at least part of your work day?
Can he go to the house of a friend for part of a work day a couple times a
week?
Is there an Aunt or Uncle or trusted friend who'd take him fun places one or
two days a week?

***I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off the
computer, to get him to do something "constructive"... my mind
understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic impulses
are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in this
process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I'm just
describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).***

He needs time to heal from the injuries of school. You've probably read
about deschooling. Some people have talked about one month of deschooling
for every year the child was in school but I've never thought that was
enough. Maybe I'm slow. <G> I think it's possible or even likely some or
even lots of kids take much longer to heal. (that was messy but I hope you
know what I mean.)

Resist letting your concerns spill out onto him.

Be with him as much as he wants you to be. Take an interest
in whatever he's doing. Sit down with him while he's on the computer and
try to see it from his perspective. He's getting something out of it he
needs right now. Let that comfort you.

***I guess I'm looking for some moral support from other parents,
particularly from parents with teens... particularly from parents
who have perhaps not been unschooling from "day one" and perhaps
have experienced some of this conflict.***

I'm the mom of a teen boy. Dylan is fourteen.

What Aaron is doing today is not all he'll ever do. Relax your whole body
and tell yourself that. Let is settle. He might very well always like
computers. They're common household and work place appliances and all of us
on this list have at least some interest in them. <g> He might not always
have the deep interest he has today but if he does, that might lead him to a
job or hobby he loves and isn't part of your hope for him that he will find
what he loves to do?

People have changing interests their whole lives long. A parent may not be
able to
see where her kid's interest might end or if it doesn't end where it might
take him but that doesn't lessen the value of his experience today.

We don't always have to understand what our kids are getting from their
interests. But in loving our kids and in respecting their intelligence we
can get comfortable knowing they are pursuing something that's important to
them. Your son's reasons for loving the computer right now aren't less
important than your reasons for loving your job, or sewing or carpentry - or
whatever your passion
might be.

This is not all he'll ever be. Haven't some of his interests changed since
he was three? Since he was seven? Since he was ten?
Do you fear he will be thirty five and still at home with you on the
computer? <g> It sounds kind of silly, but a lot of people have those
feelings. The "what about when he's twenty" feelings.

Dylan nursed until he was four. Lots of kids nurse longer but no one who
knew us ever knew a child to nurse as long as four years. I would hear
those irrational fear based questions from friends and family: "What are you
going to do when he's still nursing at eighteen?" I would say, "Get a
bigger rocking chair."

They could only see two possibilities. Either I stop him from nursing or he
would never stop. Either I do this or he will never do that.

And so always remember that there are more possibilities than *Either you
stop your son from playing on the computer or he will never do anything
else. *

There is the possibility that he will play until he's finished. There is
the possibility that his enjoyment will lead to a joyful hobby or career.
There is the possibility that through his play he will find other interests.
There is the possibility, if you embrace his interest too, your relationship
will grow and strengthen. There is the possibility he'll lose interest and
move on to something else in a year. The possibilities are endless.


***Unlike many who post here,
I am not completely opposed to traditional schooling for some kids,
as flawed as it is. ***

Even in a fairly happy school scenario kids can but injured in ways that
don't always show on the surface. This isn't a school bashing list but the
simple fact most parents willingly comply with the law and separate from
their very little children to let them be with strangers for three or six
hours a day is evidence that school alters our judgment and undermines our
confidence in ways we aren't aware of many years later as adults.

***One more thing I'd like to ask of anyone who wants to respond...
what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? ***

The only people who respond to you on this list will be the ones who want
to. <g>

My son is making his way through several screenwriting books he's purchased
recently or received as gifts. He's on book two now. The first one he read
was "Story" by Robert McKee. It sort of irritated him. <g>
The one he's reading now is "Elements of Style for Screenwriters" by Paul
Argentini. He's interested in
screenwriting and directing. He watches movies and pays attention to the
directing style, camera angles, etc. He watches a couple of movies a day,
lately. He
researches directors and movies online. He's interested in camera angles
and film techniques. He watches documentaries about film making and film
makers. He reads books about these things he's interested in. He's
reading Stephen King's "Danse Macabre."
He listens to jazz. He pays attention to politics and
international news. He subscribes to and reads a weekly political magazine.
He likes comedy and watches a couple of political
comedy shows. He's reading Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United
States."
He's reading "The Year of the Angry Rabbit" by Russell Braddon - an odd
political humor/horror story.
He splits kindling for his grandmother three or four times a
week. He draws cartoons. He's working on an idea for a line of dark humor
greeting cards. He's away on a road trip with his aunt, into Alberta and
British Columbia right now. He likes to stay up late and sometimes all
night. He likes to walk at night so we go for a walk after dark every night
with few exceptions. He's annoyed by the curfew laws that say he can't be
out alone after ten oclock. He likes to hike so we go hiking at least once
a week. He hangs out at the bookstore one day a week and visits with the
owners and with the local "Character" to talk about politics and social
issues. He plays cribbage with his dad. He kicks my ass at chess. (would
it kill him to let me win one game?? <BEG>)

Deb Lewis

Deb Lewis

***The body wants to keep doing what it's already doing... ***

I thought you didn't believe in absolutes! <g>
Think about this. If a body wants to keep doing what it's doing, why is
that? Mightn't there be a need? What would make it so?

***and sometimes computer time can become excessive and pointless just
because I'm
too lazy to get up and do something else... ***

Or maybe you just needed a little down time. Time to let your mind unwind.
When people need down time and they take a nap or go to bed early or go get
a massage, or take a long bath, we consider those to be healthy choices made
by people who are listening to their own bodies.

But society has a negative view of TV and video games and computers in that
unless one is doing something that qualifies as "work" then one is wasting
time.

*** But people do do destructive things, don't they? ***

What kind of people do destructive things? This is another one of those
questions that isn't necessary for you to answer on the list but to ponder
yourself. Is your son at risk of being self destructive? Are you thinking
rationally or are you letting fear take hold of you? Is living with fear
constructive or destructive?

***Do I just let my son continue whatever direction he's going, even if
it's leading him down a path the I see as not too great for him?***

First, your son is playing computer games, he's not organizing hookers and
gambling rings or stealing cars. Try to keep your perspective.
Games. He is not doing anything destructive and instead of trying to
change his direction you could go there with him. Then you might see it is
not the road to hell, it's a young man's interest. An interest he shares
with many other people who are just fine. Join him! Your fears will
subside.

But what else is available to him? Does he have choices about what to do
with his time. Can he go see friends? Can he go to the book stores or
museums or art galleries or gaming shops? Can he watch TV or movies? Can
he have friends over? Can he spend time with you? Can he go places and
meet people? Could he join a club or group if he wanted - rock climbing or
ski club or karate?

If he has many choices and he's choosing computer games then he's doing what
he wants to do right now. If the computer is his only or best choice then
*you* are not doing enough to make his world big and interesting. That is
not a fault with your child and not a problem with the computer. If the
computer is his only choice and you take it away from him what do you leave
him with? Resentment, boredom, loneliness. If the computer is his best
choice then he'd be a fool not to use it. What are you doing to make his
world big and interesting?

***This is where I go crazy, not knowing what to do as a parent.***

This doesn't have to be agonizing. Think about good and right ways to
treat people and apply that to your kid. If a dear friend was healthy and
happy but spent many hours making quilts would you be wondering if she was
headed down the path of destruction? <g>

Deb Lewis

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: ggould1@...

---What sort of things do these unschooled young adults do to make a
living and be independant?----

-=-=-=-=-

Cameron started working at a deli at 14.5. Ben used to sell food to
restaurants, so we knew the owners. We were also regular customers.
They needed help. Cameron applied. They would take him back in a
heartbeat. He was one of their best workers. A clean-freak! <G> They
paid him under the table until he was legally old enough to work there.

Next he worked for a caterer---again, someone we knew. Again, their
best worker.

He left there as a full time employee and worked only two days/week
because he got a job delivering a local paper. Again---best worker! <g>

He volunteered at the local independent movie theatre for a year. Then
one of the managers left for five months to go to Australia. Cam was
hired to temporarily replace him until he recently came back.

He started his own pet-sitting service. He still does this and has
over a dozen very regular clients. He stays overnight in their homes
and cares for the animals and plants, etc. This is by far his biggest
source of $$$.

For years he has gone to "Open Mike Night" at two bars in town. I had
to go with him to get him in until they knew him and knew he was
serious. At 17, he was a regular. At 18, one of the clubs hired him as
the house band's drummer (Fatback and the Groove Band). He's a
professional musician now! <G> He plays blues, jazz, and old pop.

The band he formed (Half Moon Blessing---check out their MySpace) has
had two paying gigs and are looking for more. They need a longer set.
<g>

He plays the drums 4-6 hours each day.

He was recently asked to work for a guy (family friend of the
girlfriend) who needs a driver for his business. We're not quite sure
what he'll be doing, but it's $10-11/hour.

He also has been helping a friend with some serious
remodeling---scraping popcorn ceilings, landscaping, cleaning, painting
inside & out. THis friend is also a *TALKATIVE* sociology professor at
the university. Essentially, he's paying Cam $10/hour to lecture him
about sociology. Cam LOVES it! <G>

Most of his friends are in college or have an apartment. I've told him
we would be happy to help him move out (pay first month, furnish with
what we have in storage, etc.), but he'd rather keep saving for a newer
car (that can fit his drums!) and have $$ to spend on the girlfriend.
He helped pay for NBTSCamp and the upcoming Drumming Collective (in NYC
in November) with the $$ he's made and saved. His car is paid for, but
he covers his insurance and gas and repairs, etc. At 18, I think that's
enough.

He's pretty generous with his $$, but he *really* likes to save it! <g>

He could *be* more independent, but we've suggested that he keep
working and keep saving and keep living with us. If he puts the time
and effort into his drumming these next four years that his friends are
in college, he'll be *more* prepared than they will! <G> He makes
enough $$ that he *could* live on his own, but that's not the meager
existence I want for him. I'd rather his life be rich and abundant. I
can still give that to him. I don't want him to think of himself as a
"starving artist." He can be *just* as good a musician with a full
stomach and a warm, dry home! <G>

I have NO doubts he will make it alone. He could do it now. But I like
having him around!

~Kelly









________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: lpodietz@...


> "Do you have the Teenage Liberation Handbook? Have you and he read
it?
> How about Rue Kreams' Parenting a Free Child? Sandra Dodd's
website?
> Joyce Fetterroll's?"

Two out of four. Aaron doesn't want to read right now, so I read
some chapters to him.

-=-=-=-=-

GOOD!

Too many parents refuse to read after their kids *can* read! Good for
BOTH of you!!!

I read all the Teenage Liberation Handbook to Cam several years ago.


~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

lpodietz

--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...>
wrote:
>
> ***You have probably already found or been offered these links but
I'll post
> them again because there's so much information at both places.
> www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
> http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/


yes, thanks--I should look at them more often.


"But as to time with Aaron, weren't you committed to time with
him before you took him out of school? Wasn't his unhappiness at
school a source of stress for you? How did you cope then?"

It's not a matter of coping... it's a matter of meeting his needs.
His needs are different now that he is not in school. We're still
finding our way together, so that both of us have our needs met, but
it's OK, it's a good search--- I'm not asking for advice on this.



> These aren't questions you need to answer on the list but just
consider the possibilities in your life for these or different
changes:"


Yes, your exact list of questions don't really apply to our
situation, but I get what you're saying--to think outside the usual
box. Believe me, what we are doing is way outside the box we were
in! I think we have already made many changes, both outwardly and
inwardly. And I think we're on the right track.


Thanks Deb, for such a long and thoughtful response. I enjoyed
hearing about your son, and I am glad to be reminded that my son
will probably not end up having his computer surgically attached to
his body. Even now he does occasionally retreat from the computer to
jump on the trampoline, play his bass, go to chess club and computer
animation club... get tutored by his favorite teacher in the
universe, etc..... He just left for a sleepover with three great
friends, SO WHY DO I FRET SO MUCH?? LOL.

lpodietz

--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...>
wrote:

"I thought you didn't believe in absolutes!"

That was someone else---my topic got high jacked a little to a side
discussion between two other people. A little confusing. (but
actually I don't think much of absolutes either)


"Try to keep your perspective.
> Games. He is not doing anything destructive and instead of
trying to
> change his direction you could go there with him. Then you might
see it is
> not the road to hell, it's a young man's interest. An interest he
shares
> with many other people who are just fine. Join him! Your fears
will
> subside."

If only I could make sense out of the freakin' game! I'm a total
idiot when it comes to these strategy role-playing games. But I do
sit and watch and listen. And last week I found a puzzle game that
we both really enjoyed--EXTREMELY challenging... of course he had
almost all of them figured out in no time--I figured out
some...here's the link for anyone interested:

http://click-drag-type-3.freeonlinegames.com/



"But what else is available to him? Does he have choices about
what to do
> with his time. Can he go see friends? Can he go to the book
stores or
> museums or art galleries or gaming shops? Can he watch TV or
movies? Can
> he have friends over? Can he spend time with you? Can he go
places and
> meet people? Could he join a club or group if he wanted - rock
climbing or
> ski club or karate?"

Yes, all of the above. Always, for both kids schooled or
unschooled. (If anything, I'm the one who needs more of the above!)


"What are you doing to make his world big and interesting?"

This is food for thought... maybe not quite enough so far in terms
of things that he and I do together. I have to think about this one.


Well, that's enough advice for now... I have a lot of homework!!
I'll post again when needed, meanwhile back to lurking. Thanks to
everyone who responded.

Linda

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: vickisue_gray@...

Her Dad and Mom said no if she continued to fail her classes. Piano
lessons
are a privilege not a right. One earns privileges. Hummm. Needless
to say,
my spouse and I think differently.

-=-=-=-=-

Is he on board with unschooling your other child? Why not his older
daughter?

-=-=--=-

Lately, I've sat down with her and told her, all her father can do is
make the
next four years miserable for all of us. She can comply and he will
give her
freedom, or she can refuse and she'll be free when she's of age.

--=-=-=-

I've given this advice to teens not my own---who were in dutch with
their parents and in need of a shoulder/safe place to vent. Just do
what you can and wait it out.

But that's NOT *all* he can do. That's a lie. He *CAN* and *should* do
a LOT more than make the next four years miserable for her. Is that his
GOAL???

Is that what you and your younger child have to look forward to?

I'd be out of there so fast....

~Kelly



________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

lpodietz

--- In [email protected], airokat@... wrote:

"One thing that helps me see things differently is to keep my records
in what someone called "educationese" or something to that effect. I
downloaded some free software called HomeschoolTracker and I use it."

That's funny Kathryn --I use that software too!


Good luck with your move----sounds like your daughter's doing great...
and have fun with scuba diving --- sounds very adventurous!

Linda

Michelle Leifur Reid

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ggould1@...
>
> ---What sort of things do these unschooled young adults do to make a
> living and be independant?----
>

I have a friend who has three grown unschooled daughters. One is a
published author of children's books, one is a freelance photographer
who does wedding photographs and also movie stills, and the third is
in the entertainment business currently working for Disney in an
international program. They are all (what I consider) young (under
30). They are all pursuing their passions and unhindered by
"shoulds." Another friend has two young adult unschooled children.
One is currently in college (can't remember what she is studying) and
the other just finished a 6 year stint in the Navy. Now he works
doing something similar to what he did in the Navy and going out with
his girlfriend as much as possible. :)

My oldest child has recently been thinking about "what she wants to do
when she grows up" and while she hasn't pinpointed it exactly yet, she
knows it will have something to do with Japan. She is thinking along
the lines of being an instructor of English in Japan or working in the
corporate world as an English/Japanese translator or perhaps something
to do with diplomacy. It's exciting watching her go through this
thought process!

Michelle