Solé

Hello,

today I have a question which might not be liked so much. Since I
can't seem to keep track who is who here, I guess you cannot know who
I was... so I'll state again in what situation we live in: we are
from Germany and cannot unschool radically. It is illegal to not send
your kids to school here, so we have to stick with that. We have been
"unschooling" as good as possible then, for three weeks with
incredible results and we are all loving it. But of course, we have
one problem: School. So I know you wouldn't send your children to
school in the first place – but maybe you still have some creative
ideas on how to deal with our problem. My daughter is 7 in the 2nd
year - "school" is not really the problem, because she doesn't
question it (yet), she knows it has to be and likes it (partly). But
homework is horrible. She cries sometimes (especially math)... she
gets so frustrated and I really don't know what to do.

Options I've thought about:

a) telling her she doesn't need to do them and I'd support her if the
teachers don't understand, letting her really freedom to choose
whether or not to do them - but since she has to hold some standart,
or else they will start wondering and calling youth offices and stuff
if she starts getting bad grades.

b) telling her she has to do them, try to force her to do them as
quickly as possible so she has lots of time afterwards, kind of
seeing it as a part of school which is unavoidable anyway and so keep
"schooling" until she is done with that.

c) doing them myself, or helping her a lot giving her the results if
she needs them (that would come close to supporting as much as
possible – I feel like she would be very grateful for this and really
feel that I want to help her - but she still has to learn it for
school. aaah! if she shows perfect homework and then doesn't knwo
what they are talking about in school, it might seem strange for them
and she could be in trouble...

I know this is hard, but maybe you have some tiny small ideas! I've
read many times that children going to school need to destress all
afternoon and so on – she kind of needs it too, it's a shame she
cannot unfold as much as she could :-( We've implemented the ideas of
unschooling very well in the rest of our parenting and lifestyle and
it is really working out well. I wished I could do better for her...

Please don't tell me to move to a place where we can unschool (cause
this is a plan but just not possible at the moment) or to fight the
law by going to court and so on (because this is expensive, doesn't
really help and is stressful to everbody. Not even homeschoolers with
a curriculum win those, it's really hard in Germany). I really hope
I'm still doing the right thing, maybe some of you think I shouldn't
do any part of unschooling if I cannot do it completely, cause it
will screw up both of the systems? sigh... I was trying to think I
should do the best I can - now I'm wondering if this can really work.
Unschooling and going to school really doesn't seem to fit together.

greetings
Johanna

Michelle Leifur Reid

On 9/14/06, Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
>
> But
> homework is horrible. She cries sometimes (especially math)... she
> gets so frustrated and I really don't know what to do.
>
> Options I've thought about:


How about talking to the teacher. Tell the teacher that you are not going
to force your child to do something that she truly hates and is getting
nothing from. Ask if there is an alternative to the homework (such as doing
it orally to you, or with pieces of cereal (I can't imagine that 2nd year
mathematics is that difficult) Perhaps she can do it on the computer or
heck, let her use a calculator (that is a very useful skill to have!) Make
an agreement that if she fails to meet the standards then you will review
ways to handle homework (if maintaining a standard is really an important
thing to her and you - what's the worse thing that could happen? Staying
behind a year? One on one help from a teacher's aide?) Poor baby - going
to school all day and then having to come home and do more school work?





--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

freida

Hi Johanna
Since I have deal ed with the public system for sixteen years and just
pulled Colby (14ya) last year. The main reason that i pulled him was
homework he refused to do it. When he was young he had the same issue
with it. I did everything to make the homework go smoothly (Ha ha). I
said frig it. What happen was the school made him stay in at recess.
Then when he got older they had the after school program. You know the
old game of control.
My sister had the similar problem with one of her son. The main issue
is the school had our kids more hours in a day. Why must we take our
time to enjoy our children to punish them. I hated to force my son to
sit and do home work when they should be enjoying being a kid. You
don't want to hear this you want ideas.
Here are some of the things I did with my son with math. Have a game
you have the question in your head. Do a craft or go out side math is
everywhere just play with. Ask what do you think? If the answer is
incorrect ask are you sure? Write the problems in flour or dirt, mud
is really fun to play in.
use your imagination. my son was really good at math until the school
started playing with he's mind.
Just remember this is my idea. What worked for my son may not work
for your child
sincerely
freida

Tina

> c) doing them myself, or helping her a lot giving her the results
if she needs them (that would come close to supporting as much as
possible – I feel like she would be very grateful for this and
really feel that I want to help her - but she still has to learn it
for school. aaah! if she shows perfect homework and then doesn't
knwo what they are talking about in school, it might seem strange
for them and she could be in trouble...>

Hi, Johanna!

First, let me say that I think it is WONDERFUL what you are doing
for your daughter. I think that you can be mindful and model
respect and freedom despite the requirement to attend school. What
a real gift you are giving!

Second, I have to say that doing them yourself came to my mind
before I even got to that part of your post. I have a son, soon to
be 15, that was in public school up until this past April. He
struggled so much when he was younger, and I actually did this.
Think about it. If your daughter is sitting with you and you make
it a positive, fun experience she IS learning...and SO MUCH more
than the school is actually trying to teach.

A lot of times the homework given is SO repetitive. Maybe she could
do a few, and you could do a few. You could take turns. I've even
gone as far as to make my handwriting look like theirs and write it
myself. I have even had them dictate the answers to me and wrote a
note explaining that the child did the brain work, and I wrote the
answers. I don't know if you could actually do that with your
system, but it's been done in our home.

If your daughter has you with her creating a beautiful experience
she has so much to gain. There are many creative ways you could
approach this. You know what your daughter likes and both of your
strengths and weaknessess. Draw on that. Examples like using mud
to write in or cereal to count those are great starting off points
to get creative. Talk with your daughter. Get her input. What
does she have in mind to make it fun and enjoyable?

Have fun!

Tina

Misty

--- In [email protected], Solé <solelokuai@...>
wrote:
> homework is horrible. She cries sometimes (especially math)...
she
> gets so frustrated and I really don't know what to do.

I haven't read any of the responses yet, but wanted to respond as
a "retired" teacher. I think what you should do all depends on 1)
how well you know the teachers and 2) the personality of the
teachers.

First of all I think they need to be aware of your dd feelings. As
a teacher I had a parent tell me that one spelling homework I used
to assign weekly greatly frustrated her son and that he would spend
sometimes close to 2 hrs. trying to do it. After learning this I
modified it for him so it would not be such a daunting task. I also
took this into consideration when grading it. Now the mother could
have done it for hime and I wouldn't have been the wiser, no
handwriting required for this assignment, but it was much better
knowing there was a problem. As for your possible solutions I give
you my take on them individually.

> a) telling her she doesn't need to do them and I'd support her if
the
> teachers don't understand, letting her really freedom to choose
> whether or not to do them - but since she has to hold some
standart,
> or else they will start wondering and calling youth offices and
stuff
> if she starts getting bad grades.

I know where I live homework counts as 10% of your grade, you need
to make sure you're aware of how it counts where you live to see how
much not doing it could effect her overall average. I recall as a
teenager taking algebra not doing homework and my mom was called b/c
my average was I think a D almost entirely due to the homework
issue. (of course my mom's solution was to get a list of the
homework and keep me locked in the study everyday until it was all
completed, and of course the teacher gave me zero credit for it, so
I still ended up with a C average).

Maybe you could discuss with the teacher doing less homework if she
assigns 20 problems maybe your dd could do 5. Five problems should
be enough to know whether or not she understands it, and if she
doesn't there no since of her doing 20 and getting frustrated by
something she can't do.
>
> b) telling her she has to do them, try to force her to do them as
> quickly as possible so she has lots of time afterwards, kind of
> seeing it as a part of school which is unavoidable anyway and so
keep
> "schooling" until she is done with that.

If after talking with the teacher you can't find any solution but
for her to do the homework, I would make sure to be there with her
and for her so you can help in anyway she needs.
>
> c) doing them myself, or helping her a lot giving her the results
if
> she needs them (that would come close to supporting as much as
> possible – I feel like she would be very grateful for this and
really
> feel that I want to help her - but she still has to learn it for
> school. aaah! if she shows perfect homework and then doesn't knwo
> what they are talking about in school, it might seem strange for
them
> and she could be in trouble...

My opinion is that doing the homework for her is not a good idea.
You mentioned yourself one of the reasons, she'll be lost while in
class. Helping her to understand it to the best of your ability.
Letting the teacher know she doesn't understand these will be more
supportive. I was a different person when I was a teacher, very
strict, but when a child handed in homework that wasn't done by him,
he didn't get credit for it. He also failed the test b/c he didn't
know the material.

I really feel for you and your children. I hope you can work this
out peacably.

Misty

landvchapman

I am pretty new to this group, and haven't posted much but this kind
of struck a cord with me and I felt the need to answer.

I've never really liked the label "unschooling". Don't get me
wrong, my kids are unschooled and the idea and lifestyle is grand.
But the label "unschooling" just doesn't fit in my mind.
(Unfortunaely sometimes in our world we have to use labels to
explain what we mean.) If "unschooling" is actually a thing, then
EVERYONE is an unschooler, even those who use traditional school.
They just aren't getting all the great benefits that people with
the "unschooling" mindset get. What you are doing with your child
right now, while she is still in school, is what many parents
(certainly not as many as I would like to see) do everyday. Whether
they send their kids to school or don't. You are parenting
respectfully. You are treating your child as an equal human being
with less life experience than yourself. At least that is what I
think you mean when you say "radically unschooling". So, no if I
were in your shoes, I wouldn't stop what you are doing. I would, if
necessary, explain to her that if it were up to you she wouldn't
have to go to school if she didn't want to. (I wouldn't do this
unless she asks or you find another reason it is necessary only
because it could be hard for her to understand...maybe not though.
Only you can answer that.)

So I know you wouldn't send your children to
> school in the first place – but maybe you still have some
creative
> ideas on how to deal with our problem. My daughter is 7 in the
2nd
> year - "school" is not really the problem, because she doesn't
> question it (yet), she knows it has to be and likes it (partly).
But
> homework is horrible. She cries sometimes (especially math)...
she
> gets so frustrated and I really don't know what to do.

But I would!! If they wanted to go. Traditional forms of school are
just ANOTHER tool for learning. I just wouldn't put the same
emphasis on school as many (almost all) parents would. I would go to
school myself if I felt a need for it, and if they gave me
information I didn't see a need for, I would let it go in one ear
and out the other. I may use some of the information given, and not
use some. I would allow my children the freedom to do the same if
they decided they wanted the experience of traditional school or
even just wanted to take one class. School isn't really the problem
in my eyes. It's the way children are treated in regard to school.
It isn't allowed to be a place where one might go and learn from
someone who is knowledgable in a certain area (the teacher) as it
would be for you and I as adults.

I understand you are in a difficult position because your parenting
ability could be questioned by the school. However, I can't imagine
YOUR child would be the ONLY child that has had slipping grades.
What happens to parents that just can't make their kids do their
homework? I never did my homework, rarely went to school for that
matter when I was in Junior High and High School. My mom tried
to "make" me. It didn't work. I only did what I felt necessary or
interesting. Don't make her. Help her if SHE wants to do it, and
make sure she knows YOU think it's ok if she doesn't get it. You
are her biggest advocate, supporter and influence. If you don't put
the same kind of emphasis on "school" as you do on just learning
naturally, she probably wont either.

I think I saw in a previous post that you were going to be moving in
the future (a couple of years?) to a place where homeschooling was
legal? Maybe that was someone else though...but either way, if I
were you, I would just keep moving toward that goal. Keep parenting
respectfully. Keep learning through life. That's all we are all
doing anyway. Just let her "school" experience be another tool in
her learning toolbox.

Good luck!

Lynda

Heather

Here is an article that you might find helpful....
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jessica

Freida:

I can relate to the homework issue (it was a schoolwork issue as well...)...

We had this problem with one of our boys... turned out he was unschooling himself (coming up with his OWN projects, things he wanted to try & learn) when there was no school & we kept having to hold his homework over his head "you can do (project name) after you're done with your homework"... had I known what I know now, I'd have fought with his teachers more instead of sort of giving up, but it's a moot point now, he's home, he comes up with his own projects & stuff to do, he's happy & busy busy busy... wish I'd read http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice (School Choice by Sandra Dodd) a long time ago! Someone else in this thread mentioned that article as well...

Reading my old blog entry from Sept 2004, I wish we'd pulled himfrom the public school system sooner... the http://weavingrainbow.com/blog/archives/2004_08.shtml entry ("Why I'm up ad 6am) is a case in point:
"I set my alarm for 5am so that I could get Micah up to finish his homework. He spent about 4 hours yesterday trying NOT to do his homework. It's not that he has trouble understanding the stuff, but he says it's so boring... I need to talk to someone at school and see what they can do... either give him some more challenging work to do or find a different approach to teaching him. Part of the problem is that he's not SHOWING that he can do the work because he's resisting it so much..."

I know better now, different approach: let him learn at his own pace...these days he busies himself with bead jewelry projects, programming on the computer, reading and sometimes he just stares into space... thinking? absorbing? resting? not looking at anything in particular... whatever kids do... I remember doing something along those lines when I was younger.

Talking to his teacher was a waste of time...the jist of it was that we HAD to MAKE him do his work or he'd fail... he did manage to pretty much get all A's... almost always at the last minute for some things...

We had some problems with his brothers re: homework to a lesser degree... at the school the boys went to, they gave homework 2 or 3x week in KINDERGARTEN...can you say insane?? They didn't call it "homework" but parent-child learning or somesuch oddness... Was 4x week from 1st grade on... (and from 3rd grade on, all homework & schoolwork was tied to the school's precious achievement tests...teaching To The Test in other words, ugh..that was one of the reasons I pulled the boys, the other was we hardly saw our then-7 yo because he would come home & be asleep within an hour of returning home & wake up in time to go to school)...

One of the boys had handwriting problems and his teacher was making him stay in at recess to practice it...I didn't know that, else I would have had a MAJOR fit... at the time I was concerned about handwriting but not to the point of traumatizing my kid over it.. ugh.

Glad they're out of that environment...this is our 2nd "year".. (or rather they've been out of public school for 15 months now)... we started with something of a curriculum (Robinson Curriculum which is set up for them to teach themselves) but we found out pretty quick that we didn't want to do schoolwork patrol... it was more than that, though: why pull them from school to do more or less the same stuff they'd do IN school? We still have a workbook or two in case anyone wants to use it and sometimes my almost-9 year old does...

> The main reason that i pulled him was
> homework he refused to do it. When he was young he had the same issue
> with it. I did everything to make the homework go smoothly (Ha ha). I
> said frig it. What happen was the school made him stay in at recess.
> Then when he got older they had the after school program. You know the
> old game of control.

Cheers,
Jessica

http://weavingrainbow.com/HSblog

Solé

Hello Lynda and list,

> I understand you are in a difficult position because your parenting
> ability could be questioned by the school. However, I can't imagine
> YOUR child would be the ONLY child that has had slipping grades.
No, but until now she's been "the best" in class, with "the best"
grades and certificate for the year and so on. She could read before
school started and was very excited one year ago (unfortunately, she
has lost interest in all the subjects which are taught by strict
teachers, math for instance). If she would suddenly drop grades it
would be kind of "suspicious" I think – the teacher really likes her
and she would probably instantly ask if something is wrong at home
etc. It would be awkward if she suddenly told at school that at home,
her mother tells her she "doesn't have to do" homework or something
like that. It is very much expected that the parents cooperate - and
even that the parents are "on the same side" as the teachers (like,
if the teachers think it's reasonable to punish somehow, they expect
the parents side with the teachers, not with the children ("punish"
is such a hard word though, they are very "kind" in their
"consequences", I just don't know a better word in English). So I'm
just afraid they will start wondering too much. But of course, they
cannot interfere with my parenting style unless it seems *really*
damaging to them. And also, I think a part of me is just not
deschooled enough (what will my family think? how can I explain? what
if she has to repeat classes?)...

> What happens to parents that just can't make their kids do their
> homework?

they'd have to stay longer at school, a mixture of punishment and
"promotion" (?) "furtherance" (?) to "help" them get better
> I never did my homework, rarely went to school for that
> matter when I was in Junior High and High School. My mom tried
> to "make" me. It didn't work. I only did what I felt necessary or
> interesting. Don't make her. Help her if SHE wants to do it, and
> make sure she knows YOU think it's ok if she doesn't get it. You
> are her biggest advocate, supporter and influence. If you don't put
> the same kind of emphasis on "school" as you do on just learning
> naturally, she probably wont either.

I really understand what you are saying and I wished it was that
easy. Actually, that's what I would like to do most – but I'm just
afraid she'll have to repeat class then, or I dunno! Maybe she'll
never do homework again and then the teacher is mad and then school
is even worse for her and the less she'll want to do anything at all;
then other children start picking at her etc... well it's probably
the worst scenario and maybe not what will really happen. But she
herself is terrified whenever she jsut *forgot* homework, and thinks
that something horrible is going to happen (she doesn't know what
will happen though, i've asked her what would be the worst thing, but
she can't answer this, I dunno why she is so terrified actually)
>
> I think I saw in a previous post that you were going to be moving in
> the future (a couple of years?) to a place where homeschooling was
> legal? Maybe that was someone else though...but either way, if I
> were you, I would just keep moving toward that goal.

Yeah that was me – we'll do our best, but England is expensive, and
we'll have to save up a loooooot of money and it will take some years
to do this. But we really want to go and have started saving up.
> Keep parenting
> respectfully. Keep learning through life. That's all we are all
> doing anyway. Just let her "school" experience be another tool in
> her learning toolbox.
>
Thank you, and thank all the others who have answered my question. I
will do some kind of mix, I'll talk to the teacher, I'll talk to my
daughter, I'll make her feel it's not that important, if she asks
I'll tell her my feelings and thoughts about school, I'll help her
with her homework if she wants to do them, I'll try to find other
games and activities which could be fun to excercise math without
forcing her or being disappointed if she doesn't like it... and I'll
do some of the homework for her if I know she understands it anyway
and she'll probably be so thankful she'll have fun and will love that
idea. We've been using the calculator as well, but I didn't allow to
use it unless for checking the results, but we'll use it next time if
she wants to.. maybe she finds out very quickly that the same numbers
add up to the same results each time... or maybe she learns that
cheating doesn't help her :-)

So thank you all for your advice!

Johanna

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 15, 2006, at 1:49 AM, landvchapman wrote:

> If "unschooling" is actually a thing, then
> EVERYONE is an unschooler, even those who use traditional school.

If unschooling is not doing school, then how is going to school
unschooling?

If someone believes they need someone to decide what they need to
know and need someone to teach it to them, then even if they're given
the freedom to choose school or stay home, they aren't unschooling if
they choose school.

They aren't even unschooling if they stay home and choose curriculum.

*What* someone does doesn't define unschooling. *Why* someone chooses
something is what will define whether someone is unschooling or not.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>Unschooling and going to school really doesn't seem to fit together.>>

It doesn't. But you can still do the best you can with what you've got. :o) I think I would talk to the teacher first and tell her the homework is not working for your family. See what she says. Maybe she'll be a closet school reformer and more than willing to brainstorm with you. If not, I think you should help your daughter in whatever way she needs to get the homework monkey off her back. Ask your daughter what would make it better for her.

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Sol� <solelokuai@...>
> Hello,
>
> today I have a question which might not be liked so much. Since I
> can't seem to keep track who is who here, I guess you cannot know who
> I was... so I'll state again in what situation we live in: we are
> from Germany and cannot unschool radically. It is illegal to not send
> your kids to school here, so we have to stick with that. We have been
> "unschooling" as good as possible then, for three weeks with
> incredible results and we are all loving it. But of course, we have
> one problem: School. So I know you wouldn't send your children to
> school in the first place � but maybe you still have some creative
> ideas on how to deal with our problem. My daughter is 7 in the 2nd
> year - "school" is not really the problem, because she doesn't
> question it (yet), she knows it has to be and likes it (partly). But
> homework is horrible. She cries sometimes (especially math)... she
> gets so frustrated and I really don't know what to do.
>
> Options I've thought about:
>
> a) telling her she doesn't need to do them and I'd support her if the
> teachers don't understand, letting her really freedom to choose
> whether or not to do them - but since she has to hold some standart,
> or else they will start wondering and calling youth offices and stuff
> if she starts getting bad grades.
>
> b) telling her she has to do them, try to force her to do them as
> quickly as possible so she has lots of time afterwards, kind of
> seeing it as a part of school which is unavoidable anyway and so keep
> "schooling" until she is done with that.
>
> c) doing them myself, or helping her a lot giving her the results if
> she needs them (that would come close to supporting as much as
> possible � I feel like she would be very grateful for this and really
> feel that I want to help her - but she still has to learn it for
> school. aaah! if she shows perfect homework and then doesn't knwo
> what they are talking about in school, it might seem strange for them
> and she could be in trouble...
>
> I know this is hard, but maybe you have some tiny small ideas! I've
> read many times that children going to school need to destress all
> afternoon and so on � she kind of needs it too, it's a shame she
> cannot unfold as much as she could :-( We've implemented the ideas of
> unschooling very well in the rest of our parenting and lifestyle and
> it is really working out well. I wished I could do better for her...
>
> Please don't tell me to move to a place where we can unschool (cause
> this is a plan but just not possible at the moment) or to fight the
> law by going to court and so on (because this is expensive, doesn't
> really help and is stressful to everbody. Not even homeschoolers with
> a curriculum win those, it's really hard in Germany). I really hope
> I'm still doing the right thing, maybe some of you think I shouldn't
> do any part of unschooling if I cannot do it completely, cause it
> will screw up both of the systems? sigh... I was trying to think I
> should do the best I can - now I'm wondering if this can really work.
> Unschooling and going to school really doesn't seem to fit together.
>
> greetings
> Johanna
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

>>If "unschooling" is actually a thing, then EVERYONE is an unschooler, even those who use traditional school. >>

I don't think I understand what you mean by this. Unschooling is learning without school or forced curriculums. How would traditional schoolers fit this description?

>>What you are doing with your child right now, while she is still in school, is what many parents (certainly not as many as I would like to see) do everyday. Whether they send their kids to school or don't.>>

But it's the absence of school that makes it unschooling. Seeing the learning everywhere instead of only in a prepared curriculum is what makes unschooling work. Seeing value in our children's interests even if they don't resemble school is what makes unschooling work.

>>School isn't really the problem in my eyes. It's the way children are treated in regard to school. >>

I think forced schooling as it is currently configured is the BIG problem. It gives the impression that learning is "there" and held by only a few trained teachers. It takes the power to learn away from the individual and puts it in the hands of the "professionals." Add to that the way parents are pressured to have their kids conform and acheive and we have the situation as it is today.

I agree wholeheartedly that schoo is just another tool. But in a forced schooling envirnonment, the power of using that tool in their own best way is taken away from people.

>>Keep parenting respectfully. Keep learning through life. That's all we are all doing anyway.>>

Yes but...there's also a lot of crap to undo when your kid is going to school each day. But I agree, keep learning and keep helping your daughter to see the learning everywhere!

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "landvchapman" <landvchapman@...>
> I am pretty new to this group, and haven't posted much but this kind
> of struck a cord with me and I felt the need to answer.
>
> I've never really liked the label "unschooling". Don't get me
> wrong, my kids are unschooled and the idea and lifestyle is grand.
> But the label "unschooling" just doesn't fit in my mind.
> (Unfortunaely sometimes in our world we have to use labels to
> explain what we mean.) If "unschooling" is actually a thing, then
> EVERYONE is an unschooler, even those who use traditional school.
> They just aren't getting all the great benefits that people with
> the "unschooling" mindset get. What you are doing with your child
> right now, while she is still in school, is what many parents
> (certainly not as many as I would like to see) do everyday. Whether
> they send their kids to school or don't. You are parenting
> respectfully. You are treating your child as an equal human being
> with less life experience than yourself. At least that is what I
> think you mean when you say "radically unschooling". So, no if I
> were in your shoes, I wouldn't stop what you are doing. I would, if
> necessary, explain to her that if it were up to you she wouldn't
> have to go to school if she didn't want to. (I wouldn't do this
> unless she asks or you find another reason it is necessary only
> because it could be hard for her to understand...maybe not though.
> Only you can answer that.)
>
> So I know you wouldn't send your children to
> > school in the first place � but maybe you still have some
> creative
> > ideas on how to deal with our problem. My daughter is 7 in the
> 2nd
> > year - "school" is not really the problem, because she doesn't
> > question it (yet), she knows it has to be and likes it (partly).
> But
> > homework is horrible. She cries sometimes (especially math)...
> she
> > gets so frustrated and I really don't know what to do.
>
> But I would!! If they wanted to go. Traditional forms of school are
> just ANOTHER tool for learning. I just wouldn't put the same
> emphasis on school as many (almost all) parents would. I would go to
> school myself if I felt a need for it, and if they gave me
> information I didn't see a need for, I would let it go in one ear
> and out the other. I may use some of the information given, and not
> use some. I would allow my children the freedom to do the same if
> they decided they wanted the experience of traditional school or
> even just wanted to take one class. School isn't really the problem
> in my eyes. It's the way children are treated in regard to school.
> It isn't allowed to be a place where one might go and learn from
> someone who is knowledgable in a certain area (the teacher) as it
> would be for you and I as adults.
>
> I understand you are in a difficult position because your parenting
> ability could be questioned by the school. However, I can't imagine
> YOUR child would be the ONLY child that has had slipping grades.
> What happens to parents that just can't make their kids do their
> homework? I never did my homework, rarely went to school for that
> matter when I was in Junior High and High School. My mom tried
> to "make" me. It didn't work. I only did what I felt necessary or
> interesting. Don't make her. Help her if SHE wants to do it, and
> make sure she knows YOU think it's ok if she doesn't get it. You
> are her biggest advocate, supporter and influence. If you don't put
> the same kind of emphasis on "school" as you do on just learning
> naturally, she probably wont either.
>
> I think I saw in a previous post that you were going to be moving in
> the future (a couple of years?) to a place where homeschooling was
> legal? Maybe that was someone else though...but either way, if I
> were you, I would just keep moving toward that goal. Keep parenting
> respectfully. Keep learning through life. That's all we are all
> doing anyway. Just let her "school" experience be another tool in
> her learning toolbox.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Lynda
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

>>Yeah that was me � we'll do our best, but England is expensive, and we'll have to save up a loooooot of money and it will take some years to do this. But we really want to go and have started saving up.>>

Good for you! My family made a big move to change our entire lifestyle a few years ago. We opened ourselves up to the Universe and doors opened for us that I never would have imagined. Keep the goal of moving in your thoughts and heart. Doors will open for you too. :o)

>>We've been using the calculator as well, but I didn't allow to
use it unless for checking the results, but we'll use it next time if
she wants to.. maybe she finds out very quickly that the same numbers add up to the same results each time... or maybe she learns that cheating doesn't help her :-)>>

It's not cheating, it's part of her learning.

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Sol� <solelokuai@...>
> Hello Lynda and list,
>
> > I understand you are in a difficult position because your parenting
> > ability could be questioned by the school. However, I can't imagine
> > YOUR child would be the ONLY child that has had slipping grades.
> No, but until now she's been "the best" in class, with "the best"
> grades and certificate for the year and so on. She could read before
> school started and was very excited one year ago (unfortunately, she
> has lost interest in all the subjects which are taught by strict
> teachers, math for instance). If she would suddenly drop grades it
> would be kind of "suspicious" I think � the teacher really likes her
> and she would probably instantly ask if something is wrong at home
> etc. It would be awkward if she suddenly told at school that at home,
> her mother tells her she "doesn't have to do" homework or something
> like that. It is very much expected that the parents cooperate - and
> even that the parents are "on the same side" as the teachers (like,
> if the teachers think it's reasonable to punish somehow, they expect
> the parents side with the teachers, not with the children ("punish"
> is such a hard word though, they are very "kind" in their
> "consequences", I just don't know a better word in English). So I'm
> just afraid they will start wondering too much. But of course, they
> cannot interfere with my parenting style unless it seems *really*
> damaging to them. And also, I think a part of me is just not
> deschooled enough (what will my family think? how can I explain? what
> if she has to repeat classes?)...
>
> > What happens to parents that just can't make their kids do their
> > homework?
>
> they'd have to stay longer at school, a mixture of punishment and
> "promotion" (?) "furtherance" (?) to "help" them get better
> > I never did my homework, rarely went to school for that
> > matter when I was in Junior High and High School. My mom tried
> > to "make" me. It didn't work. I only did what I felt necessary or
> > interesting. Don't make her. Help her if SHE wants to do it, and
> > make sure she knows YOU think it's ok if she doesn't get it. You
> > are her biggest advocate, supporter and influence. If you don't put
> > the same kind of emphasis on "school" as you do on just learning
> > naturally, she probably wont either.
>
> I really understand what you are saying and I wished it was that
> easy. Actually, that's what I would like to do most � but I'm just
> afraid she'll have to repeat class then, or I dunno! Maybe she'll
> never do homework again and then the teacher is mad and then school
> is even worse for her and the less she'll want to do anything at all;
> then other children start picking at her etc... well it's probably
> the worst scenario and maybe not what will really happen. But she
> herself is terrified whenever she jsut *forgot* homework, and thinks
> that something horrible is going to happen (she doesn't know what
> will happen though, i've asked her what would be the worst thing, but
> she can't answer this, I dunno why she is so terrified actually)
> >
> > I think I saw in a previous post that you were going to be moving in
> > the future (a couple of years?) to a place where homeschooling was
> > legal? Maybe that was someone else though...but either way, if I
> > were you, I would just keep moving toward that goal.
>
> Yeah that was me � we'll do our best, but England is expensive, and
> we'll have to save up a loooooot of money and it will take some years
> to do this. But we really want to go and have started saving up.
> > Keep parenting
> > respectfully. Keep learning through life. That's all we are all
> > doing anyway. Just let her "school" experience be another tool in
> > her learning toolbox.
> >
> Thank you, and thank all the others who have answered my question. I
> will do some kind of mix, I'll talk to the teacher, I'll talk to my
> daughter, I'll make her feel it's not that important, if she asks
> I'll tell her my feelings and thoughts about school, I'll help her
> with her homework if she wants to do them, I'll try to find other
> games and activities which could be fun to excercise math without
> forcing her or being disappointed if she doesn't like it... and I'll
> do some of the homework for her if I know she understands it anyway
> and she'll probably be so thankful she'll have fun and will love that
> idea. We've been using the calculator as well, but I didn't allow to
> use it unless for checking the results, but we'll use it next time if
> she wants to.. maybe she finds out very quickly that the same numbers
> add up to the same results each time... or maybe she learns that
> cheating doesn't help her :-)
>
> So thank you all for your advice!
>
> Johanna
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

patchworkgirl57

From: Jessica <patchworkgirl@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: unschooling and school
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:01:45 -0500
X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.0.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu)

Freida:

I can relate to the homework issue (it was a schoolwork issue as well
at the time...we're unschooling now & happier)...

We had this problem with one of our boys... turned out he was
unschooling himself (coming up with his OWN projects, things he wanted
to try & learn) when there was no school & we kept having to hold his
homework over his head "you can do (project name) after you're done
with your homework"... had I known what I know now, I'd have fought
with his teachers more instead of sort of giving up, but it's a moot
point now, he's home, he comes up with his own projects & stuff to do,
he's happy & busy busy busy... wish I'd read
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice (School Choice by Sandra Dodd) a
long time ago! Someone else in this thread mentioned that article as
well...

Reading my old blog entry from Sept 2004, I wish we'd pulled himfrom
the public school system sooner... the
http://weavingrainbow.com/blog/archives/2004_08.shtml entry ("Why I'm
up ad 6am) is a case in point:
"I set my alarm for 5am so that I could get Micah up to finish his
homework. He spent about 4 hours yesterday trying NOT to do his
homework. It's not that he has trouble understanding the stuff, but he
says it's so boring... I need to talk to someone at school and see
what they can do... either give him some more challenging work to do
or find a different approach to teaching him. Part of the problem is
that he's not SHOWING that he can do the work because he's resisting
it so much..."

I know better now, different approach: let him learn at his own pace...

Talking to his teacher was a waste of time...the jist of it was that
we HAD to MAKE him do his work or he'd fail... he did manage to pretty
much get all A's... almost always at the last minute for some things...

We had some problems with his brothers re: homework to a lesser
degree... at the school the boys went to, they gave homework 2 or 3x
week in KINDERGARTEN...can you say insane?? They didn't call it
"homework" but parent-child learning or somesuch oddness... Was 4x
week from 1st grade on... (and from 3rd grade on, all homework &
schoolwork was tied to the school's precious achievement
tests...teaching To The Test in other words, ugh..that was one of the
reasons I pulled the boys, the other was we hardly saw our then-7 yo
because he would come home & be asleep within an hour of returning
home & wake up in time to go to school)...

One of the boys had handwriting problems and his teacher was making
him stay in at recess to practice it...I didn't know that, else I
would have had a MAJOR fit... at the time I was concerned about
handwriting but not to the point of traumatizing my kid over it.. ugh.

Glad they're out of that environment...this is our 2nd "year".. (or
rather they've been free of public school system for 15 months now)...
we started with something of a curriculum (Robinson Curriculum which
is set up for them to teach themselves) but we found out pretty quick
that we didn't want to do schoolwork patrol... it was more than that,
though: why pull them from school to do more or less the same stuff
they'd do IN school? We still have a workbook or two in case anyone
wants to use it and sometimes my almost-9 year old does...

> The main reason that i pulled him was
> homework he refused to do it. When he was young he had the same issue
> with it. I did everything to make the homework go smoothly (Ha ha). I
> said frig it. What happen was the school made him stay in at recess.
> Then when he got older they had the after school program. You know the
> old game of control.

Cheers,
Jessica

http://weavingrainbow.com/HSblog

landvchapman

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm really not. I just
think my point was misunderstood.

> > If "unschooling" is actually a thing, then
> > EVERYONE is an unschooler, even those who use traditional school.
>
> If unschooling is not doing school, then how is going to school
> unschooling?

All I meant was that we all learn naturally, even if we go to
school. At some point we follow our own interests. "Unschooling"
is natural. We all do it even if we don't realize it. I DO
unschool my children, for (in my head) lack of a better word. I
just don't like the label. However, even if MY CHILD chose to go to
school, "I" would still have an "unschooling" mindset and hopefully
so would they.

> If someone believes they need someone to decide what they need to
> know and need someone to teach it to them, then even if they're
given
> the freedom to choose school or stay home, they aren't unschooling
if
> they choose school.
>
> They aren't even unschooling if they stay home and choose
curriculum.

I don't disagree with this but I think we all follow our own
interests at some point. We all decide, about *something*, when,
what and how much we need to know. Therefore, *I* believe we all
are actually natural learners or "unschoolers" at some point or
about something in our lives.
>
> *What* someone does doesn't define unschooling. *Why* someone
chooses
> something is what will define whether someone is unschooling or
not.
>
> Joyce
>

Absolutely!! This is what I was trying to convey when I said that
school is just another tool for learning.

landvchapman

> >>If "unschooling" is actually a thing, then EVERYONE is an
unschooler, even those who use traditional school. >>
>
> I don't think I understand what you mean by this. Unschooling is
learning without school or forced curriculums. How would traditional
schoolers fit this description?

Not necessarily. Unschooling is, to me anyway, choosing when, what,
how and how much of something we want to learn. All I meant was
that *I* believe we all learn naturally at some point. We all, at
some point in our lives, even if we are going to traditional school,
follow our own interests and decide when, what, how and how much we
learn about something.

> >>What you are doing with your child right now, while she is still
in school, is what many parents (certainly not as many as I would
like to see) do everyday. Whether they send their kids to school or
don't.>>

> But it's the absence of school that makes it unschooling. Seeing
the learning everywhere instead of only in a prepared curriculum is
what makes unschooling work. Seeing value in our children's
interests even if they don't resemble school is what makes
unschooling work.

I wasn't talking about unschooling specifically here. I was talking
about parenting respectfully. AP, positive parenting, any of the
other labels it is given. THAT is not synonymous with unschooling.
Some parents who send their children to school still parent this
way.

And yes, I agree that seeing the value in our childrens interests,
and seeing learning everywhere, not just at school is very
important. But you could still go to school and think this way. It
would be more difficult to combat all the opposite thinking from
school. But it can be done.

> >>School isn't really the problem in my eyes. It's the way
children are treated in regard to school. >>
>
> I think forced schooling as it is currently configured is the BIG
problem. It gives the impression that learning is "there" and held
by only a few trained teachers. It takes the power to learn away
from the individual and puts it in the hands of the "professionals."
Add to that the way parents are pressured to have their kids conform
and acheive and we have the situation as it is today.

I agree. But I'm talking about seeing school in a different light.
Just because it gives that impression doesn't mean she and her child
have to see it that way.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly that schoo is just another tool. But in a
forced schooling envirnonment, the power of using that tool in their
own best way is taken away from people.
>

Again, it doesn't have to be. I will be the first to admit I am not
a big advocate of public/traditional schooling. Or *schooling* at
all for that matter. But I don't believe we have to believe or live
by those ideas just because sometimes circumstances force us to
participate. There IS value in school, an art class for example, or
some other activitiy where you want to learn more about something.
But you only have to take away from it what you feel is valuable.

> >>Keep parenting respectfully. Keep learning through life. That's
all we are all doing anyway.>>
>
> Yes but...there's also a lot of crap to undo when your kid is
going to school each day. But I agree, keep learning and keep
helping your daughter to see the learning everywhere!
>

Yep there is. But alot of that crap can be undone before it is ever
done in the first place by letting them know that our beliefs are
different than those of people with a *schooly* mindset. Sure it
will be more difficult if she is in school, listening to it
everyday. But it is possible to get look past it, and get our
children to look past it as well.

Ugh...I feel like I'm debating things I think we all agree on here.
Sorry if I'm coming off that way, that is not at all what I
intended. (Must come from my days of debate boards :)). I just feel
like what I had to say was taken out of context.

Michelle Leifur Reid

On 9/15/06, landvchapman <landvchapman@...> wrote:

> All I meant was that we all learn naturally, even if we go to
> school. At some point we follow our own interests. "Unschooling"
> is natural. We all do it even if we don't realize it.

I don't agree with this. Many people do not know how to learn. they
know how to regurgitate information or how to memorize. I've had long
conversations with people with PhD's who DO NOT know anything about
what they got their PhD's in. How could this person have a doctorate
in theatre and be so "theatre stupid?" I also don't know that we
follow our own interests. Many times I think people follow the
interest that they think that they should follow or that they feel
that they are expected to follow.

>
> I don't disagree with this but I think we all follow our own
> interests at some point. We all decide, about *something*, when,
> what and how much we need to know. Therefore, *I* believe we all
> are actually natural learners or "unschoolers" at some point or
> about something in our lives.

Perhaps. Maybe that is why we have so many people who go through
mid-life crises. That doctor that suddenly decides that he much
prefers to tinker with cars and gives up his doctor's practice to open
an antique car restoration shop or that car mechanic who suddenly
realizes that she has a love of travelling and gets a job as part of a
crew for music act tours. What joy though if those people had been
able to pursue those interests decades before instead of figuring it
all out much later in life. Some people *never* figure it out though
and live their lives doing jobs that they never really liked doing in
the first place.


> Absolutely!! This is what I was trying to convey when I said that
> school is just another tool for learning.

It can be if you have an interest in learning the things that someone
tells you to learn and in the manner in which they tell you to learn
it. Some children learn to spell well by writing the same word over
and over. Some children learn to spell by reading that word. Some
children learn to spell by listening to the word and hearing how it is
spelled and still other children never learn to spell well and rely on
spell check and dictionaries. :) Perhaps school can be another tool
for learning, but the question is what is that person learning from
school?

--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 16, 2006, at 12:47 AM, landvchapman wrote:

> All I meant was that we all learn naturally, even if we go to
> school. At some point we follow our own interests. "Unschooling"
> is natural.

I know what you're trying to say but I think you're skipping over a
whole bunch of steps that are important to recognize!

While learning is natural, it more often than not gets buried beneath
a bunch of "shoulds" and "need tos" when someone is in school. Even
for kids who've been in school for a short while. (How deeply buried
they get often depends on personality and the parents' attitudes.)

I pursued a lot of interests while I was in public school but I was
pursuing them through the idea that they weren't as important to my
future as what I "should" be learning in school.

Some kids see school as bogus right from the beginning. If a parent
shares that opinion, but the child needs to go to school for what
ever reason (problem divorce, financial reasons or whatever), then
the idea that school learning is important won't have as great an
impact as it would on most children.

But most children don't have that advantage. Most do trust what
adults tell them. Some even believe other adults over their own
parents and trust the idea that school = success. Why shouldn't they?
Over 90% of the people around them believe it. They *have* to believe
it or all the torture they're going through to succeed in school is
for nothing. It's self-preservation to believe it.

So just because it's possible to pursue interests while still
schooling, doesn't mean that every child who does trusts that what
they're doing is important. If that were true, we wouldn't need lists
to help people get past the roadblocks to seeing the importance of
natural learning that schools erect in peoples' heads.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

">
> I don't disagree with this but I think we all follow our own
> interests at some point. We all decide, about *something*, when,
> what and how much we need to know. Therefore, *I* believe we all
> are actually natural learners or "unschoolers" at some point or
> about something in our lives."

What utopican planet is this idea from? I really WISH people did this,
but I don't see it as any kind of norm in the people around me every
day. Maybe being in the workplace puts me in more contact with broken
people? I don't know. But I know that the majority of folks I meet are
not aware of their driving passions and interests, nor do they choose
work based on what they love.

I don't believe everyone has the unschooling mindset, or we'd be
better received in mainstream life. We are the anti-school to so many
people...a threat to the very system to which they've dedicated their
lives.

Deciding to follow an interest does not make a person an unschooler in
my opinion. If it were that simple, then yeah, most folks would be
unschoolers. But it's a rare person these days that believes you can
learn anything at any time in life without formal education.

Maybe it's from being involved in homeschooling groups since 1996,
maybe it's hanging out with both schooled and unschooled kids or maybe
it's just that I have a wide and diverse group of friends...but I
don't see that unschooled attitude and joy in the average citizen. I
like to believe the world is waking up to this attitude, but it might
be a slow journey.

Having just been surrounded by hundreds of unschoolers all last week,
I can honestly say, there is nothing quite like the beautiful energy
and zest that unschoolers exude. There's nothing quite like unschooled
teens that actually ENJOY hanging out with the adults and see them as
peers. It's a whole different ballgame.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Melissa

I know that this has been replied to over and over, but I wanted to
say, that the will to learn can get beaten out of kids. My two oldest
were in school for five years, and even though we retained a somewhat
'natural-learning' lifestyle 1) it's impossible to participate in
schools while doing that, and 2) the eight hour exposure every day to
the school mindset builds up. Sure, for the first months or even
years in the beginning, you can undo the damage down by peers,
teachers, counselors, etc. But a remnant remains, and pretty soon you
have a child who is second-guessing everything that they think or feel.

Maybe if you had a purely unschooled teen, who was strong and self-
confident, and then they went to school, it'd be different. But the
four or five kids (besides my own) I've seen who are deschooling, are
still very much damaged after three or four years in school. I agree
that we all learn. Whether or not it's something that follows our own
interests, or if we make illegitimate our interests in attempts to
learn what others say is important, or if it is something completely
legislated by an adult, is not guaranteed.

Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (9), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (5), Dan
(3), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Sep 15, 2006, at 11:47 PM, landvchapman wrote:

> All I meant was that we all learn naturally, even if we go to
> school. At some point we follow our own interests. "Unschooling"
> is natural. We all do it even if we don't realize it.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

landvchapman

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ">
> > I don't disagree with this but I think we all follow our own
> > interests at some point. We all decide, about *something*, when,
> > what and how much we need to know. Therefore, *I* believe we all
> > are actually natural learners or "unschoolers" at some point or
> > about something in our lives."
>
> What utopican planet is this idea from? I really WISH people did
this,
> but I don't see it as any kind of norm in the people around me
every
> day. Maybe being in the workplace puts me in more contact with
broken
> people? I don't know. But I know that the majority of folks I meet
are
> not aware of their driving passions and interests, nor do they
choose
> work based on what they love.

I never said anything about driving passions or choosing work based
on what they love. I just said at *some* point about *some* thing
people learn naturally. They might not even know they are doing
it. Unfortunately, they may not put as much value in it as some
kind of formal/traditional education. But they still did it.

>
> I don't believe everyone has the unschooling mindset, or we'd be
> better received in mainstream life. We are the anti-school to so
many
> people...a threat to the very system to which they've dedicated
their
> lives.

I agree with this with every fiber of my being. Again, I never said
everyone has an unschooling mindset.

>
> Deciding to follow an interest does not make a person an
unschooler in
> my opinion. If it were that simple, then yeah, most folks would be
> unschoolers. But it's a rare person these days that believes you
can
> learn anything at any time in life without formal education.

You are right. It doesn't make them an "unschooler". It makes them
learning about that one thing the way "unschoolers" learn. And no,
they might not realize they learned something, certainly not
something of value, but they still learned it.

>
> Maybe it's from being involved in homeschooling groups since 1996,
> maybe it's hanging out with both schooled and unschooled kids or
maybe
> it's just that I have a wide and diverse group of friends...but I
> don't see that unschooled attitude and joy in the average citizen.
I
> like to believe the world is waking up to this attitude, but it
might
> be a slow journey.

I don't see it either, so no, it's not from all the things you've
listed.

>
> Having just been surrounded by hundreds of unschoolers all last
week,
> I can honestly say, there is nothing quite like the beautiful
energy
> and zest that unschoolers exude. There's nothing quite like
unschooled
> teens that actually ENJOY hanging out with the adults and see them
as
> peers. It's a whole different ballgame.

> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

landvchapman

I don't disagree with any of this and never said anything different
in any of my posts. What I did say was that at *some* point about
*some* thing we all learn naturally. I even went so far as to say
that it would be difficult to combat all the opposite thinking while
her child was in school, but that some of the damage could be
undone, or stopped before it started by just keeping her unschooling
mindset. Of course if her child was in school for the next 12 years
or whatever alot of that would be lost, but from what I understood
that wasn't going to be the case.

--- In [email protected], Melissa <autismhelp@...>
wrote:
>
> I know that this has been replied to over and over, but I wanted
to
> say, that the will to learn can get beaten out of kids. My two
oldest
> were in school for five years, and even though we retained a
somewhat
> 'natural-learning' lifestyle 1) it's impossible to participate in
> schools while doing that, and 2) the eight hour exposure every day
to
> the school mindset builds up. Sure, for the first months or even
> years in the beginning, you can undo the damage down by peers,
> teachers, counselors, etc. But a remnant remains, and pretty soon
you
> have a child who is second-guessing everything that they think or
feel.
>
> Maybe if you had a purely unschooled teen, who was strong and self-

> confident, and then they went to school, it'd be different. But
the
> four or five kids (besides my own) I've seen who are deschooling,
are
> still very much damaged after three or four years in school. I
agree
> that we all learn. Whether or not it's something that follows our
own
> interests, or if we make illegitimate our interests in attempts
to
> learn what others say is important, or if it is something
completely
> legislated by an adult, is not guaranteed.
>
> Melissa
> Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (9), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (5),
Dan
> (3), and Avari Rose
>
> share our lives at
> http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
>
>
>
> On Sep 15, 2006, at 11:47 PM, landvchapman wrote:
>
> > All I meant was that we all learn naturally, even if we go to
> > school. At some point we follow our own interests. "Unschooling"
> > is natural. We all do it even if we don't realize it.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

>>All I meant was that *I* believe we all learn naturally at some point. >>

Absolutely. In fact natural learning is the only way to learn.

You can't *make* someone learn something. You can't turn a switch in their head and poof they've got knowledge. Schools think they can. They think that with enough repetition and regurgitation they've "taught" and someone else has "learned". But it's not true. Learning is something that happens within the learner.

>>We all, at some point in our lives, even if we are going to traditional school, follow our own interests and decide when, what, how and how much we learn about something. >>

Sometimes the desire gets snuffed out by the school experience and all it encompasses though.

>>I wasn't talking about unschooling specifically here. I was talking about parenting respectfully.>>

Okay. That's easier for me to understand.

>>There IS value in school, an art class for example, or
some other activitiy where you want to learn more about something. But you only have to take away from it what you feel is valuable.>>

I agree that taking a class in something you're interested in can be very valuable. My kids and I have done that lots of times. But that's different than a forced schooling situation. It takes a *really* strong parent and child to overcome the messages being given. Not that it can't be done, but it's going to be a WAY different life than a free unschooler.

>>I just feel like what I had to say was taken out of context. >>

I'm not trying to do that. Really. I'm just trying to understand what you were saying. I like to discuss the value in rejecting certain long held beliefs school as we know it.

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

Misty

--- In [email protected], "freida" <fis1965@...> wrote:
>
>If the answer is incorrect ask are you sure?

Just want to point out if you only ask them if they're sure when the
answer's wrong then are you sure becomes you're wrong to them.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: landvchapman@...

All I meant was that we all learn naturally, even if we go to
school. At some point we follow our own interests. "Unschooling"
is natural. We all do it even if we don't realize it. I DO
unschool my children, for (in my head) lack of a better word. I
just don't like the label. However, even if MY CHILD chose to go to
school, "I" would still have an "unschooling" mindset and hopefully
so would they.

-=-=-=-

Again, I'm behind and just catching up. But I wanted to reply to this
one, even belatedly. Not to beat a dead horse, but...

"LEARNING" is natural. We all do it even if we don't realize it.

Unschooling is something completely different.

If children go to school, they are schooling. They can learn to not be
pushed around, and they can keep the spark of learning alive---but
they're still IN school, being schooled.

Mindset is important. Knowing you don't have to put up with school
bullshit is HUGE! AND it's a huge gift to give a child to know you
won't support school's lame agenda. But still, a child in school is NOT
unschooling.

-=-=-=-=-

I don't disagree with this but I think we all follow our own
interests at some point. We all decide, about *something*, when,
what and how much we need to know. Therefore, *I* believe we all
are actually natural learners or "unschoolers" at some point or
about something in our lives.

-=-=-=-=-

I'd say that most people do end up following their own interests at
some time. Most, not all.

But the timing plays a huge part in this.

CHILDHOOD is the time when "schooling" takes place. After "graduation"
there is no need for "schooling"---so *adults* can easily be the
natural learners that they are and not get into legal trouble for
pursuing "non-educational" goals.

Children, unfortunately DON'T have that choice. By law, they must be
"instructed" or "schooled"---go figure! <g>

So, timing's the thing. Humans ARE natural learners. We take the
"natural" part out when we send children to school. Most adults
rediscover that learning is natural---IF it's not beaten or sucked out
of them completely as children.

So to say that we are *all* natural learners at some point in our
lives isn't the issue. It's all about the timing. Children, as a rule,
don't get to make that choice.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6


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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: landvchapman@...

All I meant was that we all learn naturally, even if we go to
school. At some point we follow our own interests. "Unschooling"
is natural. We all do it even if we don't realize it. I DO
unschool my children, for (in my head) lack of a better word. I
just don't like the label. However, even if MY CHILD chose to go to
school, "I" would still have an "unschooling" mindset and hopefully
so would they.

-=-=-=-

Again, I'm behind and just catching up. But I wanted to reply to this
one, even belatedly. Not to beat a dead horse, but...

"LEARNING" is natural. We all do it even if we don't realize it.

Unschooling is something completely different.

If children go to school, they are schooling. They can learn to not be
pushed around, and they can keep the spark of learning alive---but
they're still IN school, being schooled.

Mindset is important. Knowing you don't have to put up with school
bullshit is HUGE! AND it's a huge gift to give a child to know you
won't support school's lame agenda. But still, a child in school is NOT
unschooling.

-=-=-=-=-

I don't disagree with this but I think we all follow our own
interests at some point. We all decide, about *something*, when,
what and how much we need to know. Therefore, *I* believe we all
are actually natural learners or "unschoolers" at some point or
about something in our lives.

-=-=-=-=-

I'd say that most people do end up following their own interests at
some time. Most, not all.

But the timing plays a huge part in this.

CHILDHOOD is the time when "schooling" takes place. After "graduation"
there is no need for "schooling"---so *adults* can easily be the
natural learners that they are and not get into legal trouble for
pursuing "non-educational" goals.

Children, unfortunately DON'T have that choice. By law, they must be
"instructed" or "schooled"---go figure! <g>

So, timing's the thing. Humans ARE natural learners. We take the
"natural" part out when we send children to school. Most adults
rediscover that learning is natural---IF it's not beaten or sucked out
of them completely as children.

So to say that we are *all* natural learners at some point in our
lives isn't the issue. It's all about the timing. Children, as a rule,
don't get to make that choice.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6


________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.