Aimee & Paul Bogush

Al right, I'm putting this out there....

Help�please, a fresh pair of eyes and an objective view are needed:

This summer has been excruciating! We�ve been unschooling all along in the �education� realm and began moving (somewhat rapidly) into applying it to all of our lives since the spring (when was that conference in Peabody?). In some ways it has been a real blessing, but in others <tears> it has caused much misery. Argh! Here is an example of a day to day sort of occurrence where it doesn�t seem to be �working�, causing a disconnect in the family that has been extremely difficult to endure. DH and I are further apart on this than we ever have been in any other area of our lives together and it�s really wearing on us <tears>. OK, so here�s an example of what�s been happening around here for you to help diagnose the problem and suggest a solution � because right now I feel totally trapped�I can�t go back to a parental-control model, but this is ripping us apart � I feel like fleeing my family, it�s just too hard!

We are on vacation. At a funky, cool, nice restaurant with my brother (Uncle) and my parents (grandparents). We are having a blast, the food is phenomenal, the kids are able to get yummy things (calamari, clam chowder, potato latkes, two Shirley Temples) and are able to talk, move about, etc�not a stuffy joint, stuffy crowd. So, the bill is climbing up there and my parents will pick up the tab (for the dinner AND the entire vacation rental�we�re there for a week). The issue of dessert comes up. All the adults are stuffed (STUFFED!) and DH, the girls and I are going to go back to the cottage to watch RockStar Supernova (which we watch weekly together)�time is running short, we have sundae makings back at the cottage so we (the adults) decide to forgo dessert. DD-8yrs starts whining that all we have at the cottage is vanilla and she doesn�t want vanilla so can we go to the ice cream store on the way home. DH knee-jerks with a no. I�m the idiot (that�s how I feel right now in my bad attitude) who considers it and the wishy-washy mom v. dad stuff starts (in front of my family which just adds to things). So, DH says no and I�m quietly saying to him, why not, I�ll pay for it out of my money (DH has money issues and many things seem like splurges, which they probably are as we live hand to mouth on his teacher�s salary, but I earn a bit of mad money with a very part time job). But, now the issue is more than money for him�he doesn�t understand why the ice cream at the cottage can�t be good enough. I�m indulging some of the worried feelings of �am I spoiling her by giving in� and feeling like crap. She�s whining and getting what feels to me like rude to my parents who just got us this incredible meal�I want her to just be thankful for what she�s just had and not be focused and crying over what she might not get. ARGH! So, we manage to get out of the restaurant, but I�ve decided that I will take them to get the ice cream. So, we go. I think DH ended up paying � he and I don�t get any, remember we�re stuffed and there�s some back at the cottage anyway. So, we are in the ice cream shop and now of course DD-4yrs also wants some � totally expected that�we order her�s in a cup so she can eat it in the truck on the way back so we can get to RockStar on time. Now it�s DD-8yrs turn and she wants a cone � if she has a cone DD-4yrs will want a cone and then we�ll end up with ice cream all over the truck and them on the ride home, so we tell DD-8yrs we�d rather her get a cup�she�s annoyed and pouting now�and then she starts asking for all sorts of toppings, to which we final break and just say NO. I get so annoyed I left the store with DD-4yrs so I don�t take it out on DD-8yrs. When she does come out, somewhat dejected that �all she got� was a scoop in a cup I did try to explain to her where I was coming from by saying that it just never seems like �enough is enough� for her and that if she focuses on the one or two things that she doesn�t get or don�t go her way instead of looking at ALL the other stuff that she got or had or did, then she�ll end up being a very unhappy person. I pleaded with her to look at what she has instead of what she doesn�t. These sorts of exchanges are really taking a toll on DH and I � the kids don�t seem affected, but I might just not see it.

I also then spend a lot of energy examining these occurrences afterward � I know they are young and they want and want (and I don't want her to feel like a bad person if she wants stuff, argh!!!!), but I just don�t always have what it takes (energy, finances, time, etc) to give them all they want and want and want all the time!�.do we ever get to a place of enough?!?!?!

I had hoped we would have had this mostly ironed out over the summer before DH goes back to his teaching job, but it hasn�t happened�so here I stand on the doorstep of another year and in some regards I�m afraid of my kids!!! I�m exhausted from giving them everything even when we couldn�t afford it or I didn�t have the time or energy. I�m exhausted from them wanting more and from them not seeming to notice what is being done for them or given to them (I know...this is MY problem, but argh!). I�m exhausted from my 4yr olds tantrums (she�s having one right now with DH in the bedroom because he�s trying to get the girls to �settle in� a bit for the evening � we no longer do �bedtime�). I�m exhausted from my 8yr old focusing on the negative. I'm exhausted from fighting with DH over control vs. unschooling. What the #$%^?! Where's the light-hearted fun??

This got long�I�d really like to present some of the other occurrences for a sort of �diagnosis- radical unschooling� response�.maybe in the near future.

So, with your clear eyes help please�

Off to try to referee whatever is going on between DH and DD-4yrs�adding further problems to my relationship with him and putting a Band-Aid on the situation rather than finding an answer�

I�m tired. I'm probably too focused on the negative myself. There have been many, many wonderful exchanges, but these in between those are really trying and upsetting.

<sigh>

Aimee
In Connecticut



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Cara

I'd also like to know this too.

The food thing seems to be a dividing point for me and my hubby too.

Tonight - the girls wanted a brownie, so they had one. Then they saw
their dad have a brownie and some icecream. So they asked for
icecream and some chocolate syrup on top. I didn't think it was a big
deal, but hubby said, "no, you already had chocolate" So they came
running to me. I know hubby has a reason for no more chocolate, but
to me it's unreasonable to say no to a squirt of chocolate.

Is that not honoring their choices? Or is that being wishy-washy?


Cara :)

cmcchess

I don't have much to say from a radical unschoolers point of view. I
am a step behind you, in that I am starting to think about releasing
some control as a parent that I've held onto.

The one thing I see, that maybe you already know, is that if you
don't start radical unschooling from the second they are born-it may
not work.
They have learned some things about how to get what they want, and
how they don't really have to have responsiblity for anything or
anyone-because Mom and Dad have always been there making them
apologize or not be rude or whatever.

I would also say that if Dad says no-then no. That makes it easier-
kids will know the differences between Mom and Dad and there will
always be differences. When he's at work and when he's not-you can
be a radical unschooler. But when he says no-just let it go-and tell
them that Dad said no. They'll learn to ask you instead of him :)

Also, I don't know how radical unschoolers handle this-but you as a
person have boundaries- you shouldn't feel pushed around by your
kids, it's your money, your time, your feelings. They need to learn
to respect you. They need to know that you choose whether to spend
your money on them or not. They need to know that you are tired or
sick or ??? I know that as a radical unschooler you will do
anything you can to help your children have freedom and explore the
world, but you have to be real about it. One thing they will learn
is to respect others-why not you too? It's hard to live with other
people-especially when they are bad roommates. :)
This is one thing that I struggle with-how do I get them to respect
me and their siblings without forcing them to? Let me know if you
figure it out!

Christine Jones

Oh, honey! I'm sorry!

I, too, battle with the "When is it enough!? When will you be happy, already?!". But, during this journey, these are a couple of things I've learned. Unschooling is not un-parenting. Their behaviour is basically normal child behaviour (4 and 8, right?). All they know right now is the here and now. And. . . . .it is OK to say no. Yes. They may not like it. But, it is ok. Yes. You may have to endure some whining. But, you know, I get whining no matter what I do, so. . . . .

Maybe get them involved. Pick 2 or 3 or 4 things (you can afford and you know they like) and say, "Which one?". Have sort of a family meeting and keep them involved in what's going on. Lay the $$ out on the table. Tell them (as you move the $$ away) and show them that this is all there is - - - let them pick. Mix and match, maybe. Trade with someone, maybe. Right now, my kids want to do something with horses (2 boys and 1 girl, 10, 8 and 4 yo, and they ALL just LOVE "Saddle Club"! Go figure!), and I *know* I cannot afford it. So. . .I'm looking for someone to trade with. . .someone that will let them muck out stables or otherwise work their way to riding and dealing with horses. But, in the meantime, we're still doing some of the other things they want to (bowling, skating, swimming, etc.)

As far as dh. . . .well, he really doesn't have much of a clue that we're unschooling. He works very hard. . .. and as long as I use the correct verbage, he's ok with it. But, I will say that if he makes a decision that I'm not comfortable with, I will ask myself, "What's the big deal if he makes that decision and I agree?" If it's a big deal, I will try and appeal to him (hopefully showing the kids the right way to do this), but, otherwise (as with the ice cream), I would agree with him. I know. .. the ice cream was a big deal to your kids. . . .but, they would very definitely get over it, especially with the ice cream at home.

I have to come back to this. . .it's getting late and I need to go. . .but I couldn't just let this post go without a great big cyber hug and some encouragement (I hope).

Hang in there!

Chris


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Tonya Matthews

Aimee,

I just want to say THANK YOU for posting this. This is our first
completed year of homeschooling who knows how long of unschooling. I
feel this way too!!!!!!!

I was all charged up after Peabody but with behaviors and attitude
flaring up again, I'm at a loss.

I'll watch to see what the responses are.

Best!!!
Tonya

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 8/26/06, cmcchess <queen30@...> wrote:

> The one thing I see, that maybe you already know, is that if you
> don't start radical unschooling from the second they are born-it may
> not work.

I think that there are some people on this list who will strongly
disagree with that statement. I've seen it in Ren's children and I've
seen it in mine. Ren's oldest was parented much differently as a tot
than his younger brothers and sister. My parenting has changed
drastically from the way I started out. The biggest thing was
learning trust from each other. Just because we are adults does not
mean we are infallible as parents nor that our children should be
shielded from us being fallible.

I do believe that mom and dad need to agree at least to some extent on
how they are going to parent their children. If mom is being
unschooly and dad is being authoritarian this can really confuse a
child as to whether or not s/he can truly trust both parents.

I also don't agree with the whole "dad's word is law" nor the "more
strict rule is law." (that being the one that is usually no) Perhaps
it comes from being raised by a feminist and being very feministic
myself. My co-parent and I work as a team (which wasn't always so)
when it comes to helping our children through this maze of life. How
difficult would it have been to stop at a store and pick up a carton
of ice cream? Or perhaps the child didn't know that there was
chocolate syrup at the house and that she could have swirled the
chocolate syrup in her ice cream to make it chocolate (or strawberries
or something else). And it is really ok to say to your child, "I
made an impulsive and dumb decision and now that I think about it I
think that a $4 carton of icecream well worth your trust that in the
future I will try not to make rash decisions." (Of course you may not
want to say exactly that, but it is the message that your child is
sending out.)

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

John and Amanda Slater

I was wondering what people have come up with to help children let off extra energy. My two boys are 5 and 3. They are constantly jumping on and doing flips off of the couch and bed and most often each other. I am wanting some good ways to burn off energy safely in the house for days we cannot go out. As the older child is getting bigger, rougher it is becoming more of an issue. Space is limited upstairs, but we do have an unfinished basement.

Thanks in advance,

Amanda
Eli 5 Samuel 3.5


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Monica

Though I am very new to unschooling and am not a radical unschooler,
I firmly believe that unschooling does not mean un-parenting. I
believe that it's our responsibility as parents to help them
understand that no one ever gets everything they want and occasional
disappointments are a natural part of life. Could you perhaps give
the older child a certain amount of "mad money" each week to use as
she chooses? We often do this with my daughter and she makes her own
choices about what to buy or save. It gives her freedom but shows
her responsibility as well. Giving them everything they want is a
false representation of the adult world and will create problems when
they grow up.

I also believe that you and your husband should come to some sort of
agreement. Has he read plenty of unschooling literature? Have you
both explained your positions to each other? If you have, and you're
still in disagreement, I believe a compromise is in order. Your
relationship is very important, IMHO more important than doing
absolutely everything the radical unschooling way.

I want to reiterate that I do not completely understand radical
unschooling and some of my advice might not fly with those who
embrace it. I simply believe that children should be shown how to
handle not always getting their way, because I can't think of a
single adult who can claim that they always do.

Good luck with your journey! I'm sending you lots of peaceful vibes!

Monica



--- In [email protected], "Michelle/Melbrigða"
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
>
> On 8/26/06, cmcchess <queen30@...> wrote:
>
> > The one thing I see, that maybe you already know, is that if you
> > don't start radical unschooling from the second they are born-it
may
> > not work.
>
> I think that there are some people on this list who will strongly
> disagree with that statement. I've seen it in Ren's children and
I've
> seen it in mine. Ren's oldest was parented much differently as a
tot
> than his younger brothers and sister. My parenting has changed
> drastically from the way I started out. The biggest thing was
> learning trust from each other. Just because we are adults does not
> mean we are infallible as parents nor that our children should be
> shielded from us being fallible.
>
> I do believe that mom and dad need to agree at least to some extent
on
> how they are going to parent their children. If mom is being
> unschooly and dad is being authoritarian this can really confuse a
> child as to whether or not s/he can truly trust both parents.
>
> I also don't agree with the whole "dad's word is law" nor the "more
> strict rule is law." (that being the one that is usually no)
Perhaps
> it comes from being raised by a feminist and being very feministic
> myself. My co-parent and I work as a team (which wasn't always so)
> when it comes to helping our children through this maze of life.
How
> difficult would it have been to stop at a store and pick up a carton
> of ice cream? Or perhaps the child didn't know that there was
> chocolate syrup at the house and that she could have swirled the
> chocolate syrup in her ice cream to make it chocolate (or
strawberries
> or something else). And it is really ok to say to your child, "I
> made an impulsive and dumb decision and now that I think about it I
> think that a $4 carton of icecream well worth your trust that in the
> future I will try not to make rash decisions." (Of course you may
not
> want to say exactly that, but it is the message that your child is
> sending out.)
>
> --
> Michelle
> aka Melbrigða
> http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
> [email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
>

Tyra Olufemi

Peace Aimee,

One thing I have come to accept is that just because I am an unschooler does not mean that my hubby buys into all of it. I made a decision long before I was an unschooler that I would not control my hubby's approach to parenting his children. He has the same position. So if my husband had said, no, then whatever the after math of that would be based on his actions. Maybe I would try to help my child gain an understanding or find a way to not focus on what she is not getting and instead focus on all the other things that went well that day. I do that often with my older son. But I feel we do more harm than good by trying to convince someone who is just not there yet that unschooling is the way.

How long does it take for those of us who say we are committed to radical unschooling to actually buy into it? For some a while. I did not even consider unschooling as a viable way of life for me until I needed. No one could have convinced me, I was closed to it.

My position is that ours is a family unit. I don't see how we can always get along all the time. I don't expect my children to be happy all the time and when they are not I offer my assistance to help them find perspective if they are open to receiving it. But as long as I am committed to unschooling, radical unschooling, this is what my children will receive from me. I may not always agree with my husband's approach and his words but I don't need him to buy into unschooling for it to work for us. I spend the majority of my day with my kids so the majority of their day is spent in unschooling. The other thing I think about is that for every thing I dislike about my husband's approach to relating to our children, he has the same amount for me. I would greatly dislike it if my hubby tried to change my peaceful parenting approach so I don't try to change him.

I think that if you try to work on your perspective, see the positive. Acknowledge undesired situations for what they are but continue your commitment and positive outlook, you will eventually begin to see the fruits of your positive thoughts and positive energy. The more firmly I stand in my belief and trust in this unschooling lifestyle, the more I am able to see the fruits of my position.

I wish you much success. I pray that you will soon stand in a better place because this really works despite what the outward appearance looks like.

Much love and Peace
Tyra
From: "Aimee & Paul Bogush" <shaggyhill@...>
Date: 2006/08/26 Sat PM 07:22:18 CDT
To: "unschoolingbasics" <[email protected]>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Will it ever be enough?!?!

Al right, I'm putting this out there....

Help…please, a fresh pair of eyes and an objective view are needed:

Sylvia Toyama

I didn't think it was a big
deal, but hubby said, "no, you already had chocolate" So they came
running to me. I know hubby has a reason for no more chocolate, but
to me it's unreasonable to say no to a squirt of chocolate.

*****
So what is his reason? And how fair is it, when he was having a brownie w/ice cream and chocolate syrup? Why does his reason apply to the kids, but not him?


Is that not honoring their choices? Or is that being wishy-washy?

*****

yeah, that's not honoring their choices -- I'd have pointed out the unfairness of his position, and then given the kids what they wanted.

Sylvia



Mom to
Will (21) Andy (10) and Dan (5)

www.ourhapahome.blogspot.com










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: shaggyhill@...

We are on vacation. At a funky, cool, nice restaurant with my brother
(Uncle)
and my parents (grandparents). We are having a blast, the food is
phenomenal,
the kids are able to get yummy things (calamari, clam chowder, potato
latkes,
two Shirley Temples) and are able to talk, move about, etc…not a
stuffy joint,
stuffy crowd. So, the bill is climbing up there and my parents will
pick up the
tab (for the dinner AND the entire vacation rental—we’re there for a
week). The
issue of dessert comes up. All the adults are stuffed (STUFFED!)

-=-=-=-

Why would all this matter? The question is about the children's
wanting ice cream, right?

-=-=-=-=-

and DH, the
girls and I are going to go back to the cottage to watch RockStar
Supernova
(which we watch weekly together)…time is running short, we have sundae
makings
back at the cottage so we (the adults) decide to forgo dessert.
DD-8yrs starts
whining that all we have at the cottage is vanilla and she doesn’t
want vanilla
so can we go to the ice cream store on the way home. DH knee-jerks
with a no.

-=-=-

This is where you hit the "stop rewind redo" buttons! It's the
knee-jerk that's the problem. I would have asked him to stop, breathe,
and ask *himself* why he said no.

I'd also try to figure why she's whining---or is that just how you're
coloring the picture for us? Was she really whining? Why? Tired?

I don't like vanilla either---unless it's covering or covered with
something *much* yummier. Would you have had the same reaction if I
were tagging along? Why/why not?

-=-=-=-=-=-


I’m the idiot (that’s how I feel right now in my bad attitude) who
considers it
and the wishy-washy mom v. dad stuff starts (in front of my family
which just
adds to things). So, DH says no and I’m quietly saying to him, why
not, I’ll
pay for it out of my money (DH has money issues and many things seem
like
splurges, which they probably are as we live hand to mouth on his
teacher’s
salary, but I earn a bit of mad money with a very part time job). But,
now the
issue is more than money for him…he doesn’t understand why the ice
cream at the
cottage can’t be good enough.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Because.

That's the answer for some things.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I’m indulging some of the worried feelings of “am
I spoiling her by giving in” and feeling like crap. She’s whining and
getting
what feels to me like rude to my parents who just got us this
incredible meal…I
want her to just be thankful for what she’s just had and not be
focused and
crying over what she might not get. ARGH!

-=-=-=-=-

Too much thinking about what the adults think and too little thinking
about what the littlest people with the least experience and
understanding want/need.

It may not have been about the ice cream at all (although it *might*
have). It could have been about not enough time with you or not being
STUFFED or whatever.

Could be that she was overwhelmed with too much attention on her---or
she felt dismissed because there was no attention on her.

-=-===-=-

So, we are in the ice cream shop
and now of course DD-4yrs also wants some – totally expected that…we
order her’s
in a cup so she can eat it in the truck on the way back so we can get
to
RockStar on time. Now it’s DD-8yrs turn and she wants a cone – if she
has a
cone DD-4yrs will want a cone and then we’ll end up with ice cream all
over the
truck and them on the ride home, so we tell DD-8yrs we’d rather her
get a
cup…she’s annoyed and pouting now…

-=-=-=-=-

Now who's whining???

Was all of this unexpected? Did you not think the eight year old would
like a cone? or toppings?

I would have asked her privately before we went in to please get a cup
because it would be easier with her little sister. Or I would have
bought two cones to go ON the ice cream IN the cup. Cones are so much
better! <g>

-=-=-=-=-

and then she starts asking for all sorts of
toppings, to which we final break and just say NO.

-=-=-==-=-

Didn't you have toppings at home? Could you not have averted this
*before* by suggesting that she get a scoop of strawberry or whatever
and bring it home and top it at home?

Be PROactive.

-=-=-=-=-


I get so annoyed I left the
store with DD-4yrs so I don’t take it out on DD-8yrs. When she does
come out,
somewhat dejected that “all she got” was a scoop in a cup I did try to
explain
to her where I was coming from by saying that it just never seems like
“enough
is enough” for her and that if she focuses on the one or two things
that she
doesn’t get or don’t go her way instead of looking at ALL the other
stuff that
she got or had or did, then she’ll end up being a very unhappy person.
I
pleaded with her to look at what she has instead of what she doesn’t.
These
sorts of exchanges are really taking a toll on DH and I – the kids
don’t seem
affected, but I might just not see it.

-=-=-=-=-

I can assure you they are affected---just not the way you'd like them
to be. Put yourself in her shoes at her age with parents acting the way
you are. How would *you* feel?

-=-=-=-

I also then spend a lot of energy examining these occurrences afterward

-=-=-=-=-

No wonder you're tired! Put your energy into them BEFORE they get to
this level!

You're reacting when the situation gets to level 10. You should be
reacting at level 2 or 3---BEFORE it escalates.

This takes a little more energy at first, but it pays off big the
sooner you can step in.

-=-=-=-=-

I know they are young and they want and want (and I don't want her to
feel like a bad
person if she wants stuff, argh!!!!), but I just don’t always have
what it takes
(energy, finances, time, etc) to give them all they want and want and
want all
the time!….do we ever get to a place of enough?!?!?!

-=-=-=-

Not at four and eight.

I'd say ten is the earliest I've seen it. Twelve is more probable. And
each kid is different.

If they're given what you *can* give them when you*can*, they will
understand when you *can't*. But if you're constantly harping that you
*always* can't (and then you still go and do it, but begrudgingly),
they will just think you're mean, and they'll stay needy.

Give generously when you can. Explain gently when you *really* can't.
You obviously *could* get ice cream---you were just nasty about it. How
do you think she feels?

-=-=-=-=-

I’m exhausted from giving them everything even when we couldn’t afford
it or I
didn’t have the time or energy. I’m exhausted from them wanting more
and from
them not seeming to notice what is being done for them or given to
them (I
know...this is MY problem, but argh!).

-=-=-=-=-

You've given them *everything*??? Even when you couldn't afford it?

-=-=-=-=-

I’m exhausted from my 4yr olds tantrums

-=-=-=-

She's not having a tantrum. She's dealing with the situation in the
only way she knows how with the only tools she has this minute. She's
FOUR!

=-=-=-=-=-

(she’s having one right now with DH in the bedroom because he’s trying
to get
the girls to “settle in” a bit for the evening – we no longer do
‘bedtime’).

-=-=-=-

Sounds as if you've just changed the name! <g>

-=-=-=-


I’m exhausted from my 8yr old focusing on the negative.

-=-=-=-

Doesn't seem to *me* that the eight year old is the one focusing on
the negative!

-=-=-=-=-

I'm exhausted from
fighting with DH over control vs. unschooling. What the #$%^?! Where's
the
light-hearted fun??

-=-=-=-=-

The light-hearted fun is being eaten up by the control.




~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6


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Joyce Fetteroll

> But, you know, I get whining no matter what I do, so. . . . .

*Is* that what you want?

Whining is a way of saying "I've tried the polite ways of getting you
to listen but you're ignoring me." When kids know polite requests get
nothing, they can learn to go directly to whining (or tantrums).
Whining at least gets *some* reaction.

We can't always give them what they want but we *can* validate their
desires. We *can* help them problem solve and come up with a solution
that may be even better.

If it were raining and you'd planned to go swimming and were looking
out the window and said "I want to go swimming," what would you
rather hear "Well, you can't. It's raining," or "Yeah, that would
have been nice."?

When we were kids our parents implied a promise that when we got to
be adults we'd get to do anything we wanted but that it was their
turn now to get their way. But when we get to be adults we realize we
get burdened by responsibility and it *feels* like we can't do
anything we want. And we look at kids' lives without the burden of
responsibility and think how good they've got it. And there's a bit
of jealousy there!

But we've forgotten how sucky it is to be a kid. As an adult if you
want a candy bar from the store, you can go buy one. If you hear a
song you really like you can go to the music store or plan it into an
errand run. We may have responsibilities but they're responsibilities
that we *chose* to take on and then *choose* when and to what
standards to keep them. If we "have to" go shopping we decide when
and how long.

Kids can't. They need to ask permission or help for so many things.
And then they need wait to see if permission will be granted or if
their request is convenient enough for the parent to attend to now or
if the parent will put it on the "when I get to it" list (that they
often seem to never get to.)

Think about asking your husband's approval for every dime you spend.
Think about having to ask him to take you to the store for a new book
and then *maybe* if it was convenient, and *maybe* if he agreed that
it was worthwhile in time and money he might work the side trip into
his busy schedule of important things he "has to do."

We don't need to make life like that for our kids. If there's some
resentment of "Why should I make their lives easier when mine is so
hard," it can help to project into the future when we become a burden
on our kids, we can ask ourselves if we're treating them the way we'd
want them to treat us when we're dependent on them. It can also help
to see that everything we do is a choice and look for ways that our
choices are making life harder for ourselves.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Solé

For the "old" Playstation (surely there are for the new one as well),
we have like... "dancing-mats". They were from japan. They are
plugged in instead of the joysticks and the game is to dance
"correctly" to the music. I used to do that myself when my dd was 3
or 4 and she used to "dance" as well on her mat, although she didn't
score any points. It was a lot of fun for all of my friends (we never
played any other games and I'm not into playing games at the PS, but
this game was so much fun) and we used to be very exhausted
afterwards. Of course, you cannot do this the whole day long and
everyday you stay at home, but this could be one option, if you
already have a PS.

There are tiny trampolines for at home. And my friend used to do
gymnasitcs in front of DVD for women :-) And her children would
always join in.

Maybe for it to be more safe you could temporarily put matresses on
the floor.

Inviting other friends and have a little "party" always exhausts the
children as well.

greetings
Johanna

> I was wondering what people have come up with to help children let
> off extra energy. My two boys are 5 and 3. They are constantly
> jumping on and doing flips off of the couch and bed and most often
> each other.

Solé

Really, thank you? I rather feel a bit discouraged and I dunno if I
can go this way now. Exactly these things are the ones I am wondering
about. We are not officially unschooling yet, I have just started
saying "yes" way a lot more often. But we are also confused how to
handle many minor issues. For instance, yesterday she wanted to go
downstairs, but there was some little bug. It was a male mosquito,
those that are bigger than the females but which do not sting. She
(7) knows that they don't but she panics. She wanted me to go
downstairs with her. I didn't want to. My bf came and said he would
stand in front of it so she could pass "safely". She wanted him to
kill it instead and brought a thingy (I dunno in English, these.. fly
catchers or whatever). He said that the bug was harmless and didn't
even sting and he wasn't going to kill it, because he never kills
these (he's vegetarian :-D). And then she started crying. Then I
started thinking that choosing between braking HER heart or killing a
stupid mosquito, maybe we should rather kill the stupid mosquito. But
then, my old Johanna started thinking "now she is learning that qhen
she cries, she gets all"... I said to my bf "well I dunno"... he
killed it. And then she passed. And he said also he didn't know how
these things would be handled.

When I read about unschooling I was rather encouraged, everything
seems to be so "joyful" and so on. But giving in to every little wish
of the children seems SOOOo much work. Should I have gone downstairs
with her. I really didn't want to. I was just about sitting down,
finally myself, it was already late, I was tired. I'm kind of
egoistic ;-) And I think it's so exagerated to panic about a stupid
bug of which she KNOWS it doesn't do anything.

Greetings
Johanna
(Germany)


Am 27.08.2006 um 02:56 schrieb Tonya Matthews:

> Aimee,
>
> I just want to say THANK YOU for posting this. This is our first
> completed year of homeschooling who knows how long of unschooling. I
> feel this way too!!!!!!!
>
> I was all charged up after Peabody but with behaviors and attitude
> flaring up again, I'm at a loss.
>
> I'll watch to see what the responses are.
>
> Best!!!
> Tonya
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Solé

In front of the children? This is another thing I wonder about.
Exactly because we are knew to this, we have many questions and we
have many situations in which we would kind of want to ask each other
"what do you think?", is it right this way? oh, no, now you totally
screwed it... why did you say that?? and so on..

but in front of the children? I find it embarassing for him,
disrespectful and usually I choose to go the "wrong" way first and
THEN, along, talk about it.

or?
Johanna

Am 27.08.2006 um 07:08 schrieb kbcdlovejo@...:

> This is where you hit the "stop rewind redo" buttons! It's the
> knee-jerk that's the problem. I would have asked him to stop, breathe,
> and ask *himself* why he said no.

cmcchess

--- In [email protected], "Michelle/Melbrigða"
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
>
> On 8/26/06, cmcchess <queen30@...> wrote:
>
> > The one thing I see, that maybe you already know, is that if you
> > don't start radical unschooling from the second they are born-it
may
> > not work.
>
> I think that there are some people on this list who will strongly
> disagree with that statement. I've seen it in Ren's children and
I've
> seen it in mine.

I'm glad to hear it! Like I said I am one step behind, just thinking
about letting go of some control I still have hung onto. And I find
that the kids will disrespect me and each other until I put my foot
down and make them stop.
So please, how long will it take for them to learn respect for
others?

Also, about the "Dad's word is Law" thing. I, too think that
spouse's need to work together and if they aren't on the same page
it will be difficult. But I don't think that Dad and Mom are always
going to be on the same page about stuff, so if one says no, just
let it go. If Mom would say no, and Dad would say yes, that would be
pretty annoying too. Just let it go, and discuss later how your
opinion differs from his and see how the conversation goes.It is
much easier to let it go-considering the issue is small-and if it
isn't there is probably time to have a private discussion and change
their mind.

camden

Trampoline !

Yes, trampolines can be dangerous......... IF they are not used properly & safely. I've had one here for over 10 years. We purchased a safety enclosure to assure no one would go flying off it. My kids love it, they play ball (kickball type) on it, hoola hoop on it, look at the stars on it and best of all JUMP on it. My kids have a blast & it expends all kinds of energy.
They also make a mini version for the house (don't have one yet).
But there is one idea ;)

Carol._,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Amanda, in my house I think "letting off extra energy" would be more correct
as "making use of the unlimited energy that is never depleted". :)

Two of my best purchases have been a mini-trampoline and a big exercise
ball. I bought a cheapo ball at Target and the kids roll around on it, chase
after it, try to balance on it. Then they let the air out and blow it up again
countless times. You have to watch out for corners on furniture, but my kids
have never gotten hurt.

There is also a new product that you can strap on your feet that slides on
carpet like ice skates. We don't have them but I did see them at Target. My
kids used those at a children's museum once, I just don't have a good
"skating arena" in my house to get them.

I never had space to do this, but a suggestion someone had once was to fill
gallon milk jugs with sand and let the kids haul those around. The heaviness
supposedly taxes their muscles in a way running around never does, but I
always thought that surely there could be a better way to do this than milk
jugs. If I had my dream kids' space, I would also install monkey bars. :)

You might check out some books on sensory integration or "out of synch"
kids. Those books have lots of suggestions for different types of play.

Have fun!
~Leslie in SC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 8/27/06, cmcchess <queen30@...> wrote:
> I'm glad to hear it! Like I said I am one step behind, just thinking
> about letting go of some control I still have hung onto. And I find
> that the kids will disrespect me and each other until I put my foot
> down and make them stop.

It is not ok for anyone to be disrespectful and it is perfectly fine
to tell anyone who is being disrespectful to you that you don't like
the way you are being treated BUT the change to respect is not going
to happen until your children can trust that you aren't going to be
disrespectful to them. Have you been? Have you respected their
wishes? Have you made rash controlling decisions that have little
logic (at least that children can see) behind them? Have you included
them in decision making? Do you still force and manipulate their
lives to make your life easier?


> So please, how long will it take for them to learn respect for
> others?

As long as it takes for you to build up trust with them. Baby steps.
It won't happen overnight, but one day you will witness something and
you'll say to yourself, "Wow! I don't have to force my children to be
respectful!" Forced respect is not true respect. It's like making a
class full of kids (or a stadium full or people) stand for the pledge
of allegiance or national anthem. Do all those people truly feel
respect for the flag or words of the song? I doubt it. But they do
it because they have been taught the actions of respect without the
meaning of respect. How often did you witness as a child other kids
fidgeting, moving around, whispering with a neighbor when they should
have been saying, "I pledge allegiance to the flag......"? That guy
at the baseball game who is standing with his hand reluctantly over
his heart or the woman who continues looking at the pictures of the
ballplayers in the program rather than singing the national anthem?


Just let it go, and discuss later how your
> opinion differs from his and see how the conversation goes.It is
> much easier to let it go-considering the issue is small-and if it
> isn't there is probably time to have a private discussion and change
> their mind.

Changing your mind later doesn't fix the problem now. Even "little
problems" can be a stumbling block in building trust. I think it is
much better for parents to agree to work out differences NOW than
later. And what is so wrong with children seeing parents work through
the process of figuring it all out rather than some clandestine jury
that suddenly comes out with a surprise answer? Later you and your
spouse can get into the whole issue behind the issues as you each work
through new thoughts and ideas.


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Mik McEwen

For us, winter was the tough season for getting out crazy monkey energy.

We have a back porch and have had the following suspended from the beams
(not all at the same time): swing (picked up on junk day from someone's
curb), punching bag (garage sale purchase), set of rings (from a swingset),
hanging chain with metal rod to stand/hang, bouncy seat, a ladder (found on
junk day). Even in winter, the kids could go out on the back porch and
swing, climb, etc. You CAN do this anywhere in a house (basement?).
Yesterday, at an unschoolers home, she had 2 metal ladders in her sons room,
one on the wall and one on the ceiling. He could climb monkey bar style
over his bed or up the wall. I have seen swings, rope, etc. in peoples
garages, homes, hanging over the stairs, etc.

We also had a mini trampoline for a while (until it broke).

I have set up obstacle courses in the house with pillows, etc.

Good luck!
Mik in CT


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: solelokuai@...

For instance, yesterday she wanted to go
downstairs, but there was some little bug.

She wanted me to go
downstairs with her. I didn't want to.

-=-=-=

So *your* "do not want to" overrides " *her* "do not want to."

Why?

She's seven.

How do you think *she* feels about how you handled this?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/27/2006 10:30:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
solelokuai@... writes:

And I think it's so exagerated to panic about a stupid
bug of which she KNOWS it doesn't do anything
>>>

Handling situations like this that arise so much more than "big" problems
can really make or break a relationship with your child. She asked you to go
downstairs with her and she needed you to do that. It doesn't really matter
if she understood that the bug wouldn't hurt her.

The relationship that you develop with your child now hinges on your
response to little fears as well as bigger issues. If you can trust her enough to
believe that she needs you and respond to that need, you will be beginning
that process of her building trust in you.

If your relationship with your child is important to you, you will put aside
your own desire to relax for the few minutes it would take to be with her.
Without that trust developing, there is little chance for a joyful
unschooling life or a healthy relationship with your child.

Gail







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/27/2006 10:30:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
solelokuai@... writes:

When I read about unschooling I was rather encouraged, everything
seems to be so "joyful" and so on. But giving in to every little wish
of the children seems SOOOo much work.


>>>

Imagine 10 years from now, when your daughter is 17 rather than 7......She's
at a party and the "mosquito" is a boy who maybe had too much drink or is
making her uncomfortable with sexual advances. Does she call you because she
knows from years of experience that you will come and get her if she needs
you? Or will she stay and try and handle it on own?

I imagine you would hope that she would call. Your response to her needs
now could make all the difference.

Gail


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyra Olufemi

Sometimes I join in to assist with keeping everyone safe. They have way more energy than I feel like burning off most of the time but there is something about my participation that helps to take their energy down after we wrestle, run and act out all of the scenes that they to act out. The other thing I will do is load us in the car for a quick run to the post office, grocery store, etc....A change of scenary helps when the weather does not permit us to go out to play.

I feel you. Mine are 5 and 3 yrs old, too.

Peace and love
Tyra
From: John and Amanda Slater <fourslaterz@...>
Date: 2006/08/26 Sat PM 08:36:04 CDT
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] needing energy solutions

I was wondering what people have come up with to help children let off extra energy. My two boys are 5 and 3. They are constantly jumping on and doing flips off of the couch and bed and most often each other. I am wanting some good ways to burn off energy safely in the house for days we cannot go out. As the older child is getting bigger, rougher it is becoming more of an issue. Space is limited upstairs, but we do have an unfinished basement.

Thanks in advance,

Amanda
Eli 5 Samuel 3.5

Tyra Olufemi

I try to avoid labels because everything tends to be case-by-case for me. I do my best to be respectful of others, even those who I disagree with. The main reason that I am that way is because I have had to work for a good while to stand in my power and not waiver because someone does not approve. The last thing I want is for someone to persuade me that my peaceful parenting, unschooling approach to relating to my kids is wrong. So, I have extended that same respect and courtesy to my hubby. Like most hubby's on this list, my husband is a good person who is doing what he thinks is best for his children. I have come to the place that he is going to have to figure out what works best for himself. What I try to do is be true to how I deal with the children. Do I cringe at some of the things that he says? Sure I do. Do I dislike some of his interactiong with our children? Yes! But I have learned that trying to "correct" him or convince him of how wrong or inappropriate I think his behavior is is futile and actually leads to more dissention than household harmony. He is gone most of the time so most of the time my children are unschooled. When he is home, I still am the main person that my children come to. Because of my approach to interacting with my children, things tend to be kind of laid back anyway and he goes with the flow. So when he does say something like, "No, you just had chocolate." EVen though the kids are seeing that he is having BOTH chocolate AND ice cream, I just let it be. When he is gone they will get chocolate and ice cream if they ask me. Nothing against Daddy I will simply say yes because that is what they requested. Plus, my hubby is the type that is affected by our children's sensitivity. He tends to be a fair and just person so if one of my children called him out on why he is getting both, he has come to a place where he will evaluate the situation and either nix what they did not have, give them what they requested or something that shows that he is listening.

I feel like I am rambling a bit now. I don't know if it is just the messages that I am checking but there seems to be a theme running of mother is cool with unschooling and Daddy isn't. For most of us we will not agree all of the time on how to relate to our children. There is balance in it all, at least that is how I see it. Because I KNOW that I do things that are completely and totally inappropriate with my children. I don't need my hubby hovering over me to point out my mistakes. What I feel most comfortable doing is checking my ownself. And somehow, I don't know how, but by just focusing on making sure that I am relating to my children in a way that is respectful, loving, peaceful, kind, my hubby is doing the same thing. Will he ever call himself an unschooler? I doubt it. But he sure is living the unschooling life. Bless his heart, he has come into this kicking and screaming but it is all working out despite.

Best to you and I hope that you pat you and your hubby on the back for striving to do the best you can to nurture your beautiful children.

Namaste
Tyra
From: "Cara" <casonnier@...>
Date: 2006/08/26 Sat PM 07:44:36 CDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Will it ever be enough?!?!

I'd also like to know this too.

The food thing seems to be a dividing point for me and my hubby too.

Tonight - the girls wanted a brownie, so they had one. Then they saw
their dad have a brownie and some icecream. So they asked for
icecream and some chocolate syrup on top. I didn't think it was a big
deal, but hubby said, "no, you already had chocolate" So they came
running to me. I know hubby has a reason for no more chocolate, but
to me it's unreasonable to say no to a squirt of chocolate.

Is that not honoring their choices? Or is that being wishy-washy?


Cara :)

Laureen

Heya!

On 8/27/06, Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
> In front of the children? This is another thing I wonder about.
> Exactly because we are knew to this, we have many questions and we
> have many situations in which we would kind of want to ask each other
> "what do you think?", is it right this way? oh, no, now you totally
> screwed it... why did you say that?? and so on..
>
> but in front of the children? I find it embarassing for him,
> disrespectful and usually I choose to go the "wrong" way first and
> THEN, along, talk about it.

Absolutely.

We're new to parenting this way, and unschooling, and everything. Both
my DH and I come from rage-filled abusive homes, and we are doing our
clearly-stated mutually-darnedest to be better. Scott Noelle refers to
this as "parenting in the gap"... the distance between the parenting
you got, and the parenting you want to give.

So... both DH and I blow it all the flippin time. Say the wrong thing,
do the wrong thing, whatever. But we think it's more critical to do it
right than it is to seem perfect. So (and here's the critical bit)...
with the utmost respect for each other, we say "Hey... are you sure
you wanted to do that that way?" and then DS gets to see what a
"do-over" looks like, and what respectful questioning looks like. He
sees that grownups are not perfect, and that Mama and Papa not only
blow it, but are totally open to rethinking, redoing, changing course
to go to a better place.

--
~~L!
http://elementalmom.blogspot.com/

Tyra Olufemi

I think that joyful is more perspective than anything. I am one year into unschooling but I believe that those who have more experience and comfort with this lifestyle would say that there are day when all is not as they would want it. I think that the difference is how we look at it. The situation with your dd could have unfolded the exact same in a different unschoolers home and they would not have thought twice about it because there is less to little judgment for the child's feelings.

Now that I am writing, it is really clicking for me why they say put yourself in the child's mind. If you were some where and there was a big ugly bug and someone told you to just move past it but you were truly afraid, it would be helpful if someone came to get rid of the bug, kill it or whatever. I believe that your dd was truly fearful. THere is no judgment in that. If your bf did not want to kill it and you had no problem with that, then that may have changed the situation totally.

Unschooling does not lead to a life where everyone is happy and blissful all the time. I do think that there is more bliss and happiness in unshcooling than not. But, unschooling is life. Unschooling is conscientious living. Unschooling calls for us to be very mindful as we live our lives and interact with our children.

I believe that when parents who want to unschool release fear, then they too will find the joy and happiness that they hear other talk about. But it won't because there children are doing exactly what they want to do. THe joy and bliss that they feel will be internal and extend out to their children and really put us in a place where we love our children unconditionally.

I wish you all the best. Unschooling is truly a journey and not a destination.

Tyra
From: Solé <solelokuai@...>
Date: 2006/08/27 Sun AM 04:58:11 CDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Will it ever be enough?!?!

Really, thank you? I rather feel a bit discouraged and I dunno if I
can go this way now. Exactly these things are the ones I am wondering
about. We are not officially unschooling yet, I have just started
saying "yes" way a lot more often. But we are also confused how to
handle many minor issues. For instance, yesterday she wanted to go
downstairs, but there was some little bug. It was a male mosquito,
those that are bigger than the females but which do not sting. She
(7) knows that they don't but she panics. She wanted me to go
downstairs with her. I didn't want to. My bf came and said he would
stand in front of it so she could pass "safely". She wanted him to
kill it instead and brought a thingy (I dunno in English, these.. fly
catchers or whatever). He said that the bug was harmless and didn't
even sting and he wasn't going to kill it, because he never kills
these (he's vegetarian :-D). And then she started crying. Then I
started thinking that choosing between braking HER heart or killing a
stupid mosquito, maybe we should rather kill the stupid mosquito. But
then, my old Johanna started thinking "now she is learning that qhen
she cries, she gets all"... I said to my bf "well I dunno"... he
killed it. And then she passed. And he said also he didn't know how
these things would be handled.

When I read about unschooling I was rather encouraged, everything
seems to be so "joyful" and so on. But giving in to every little wish
of the children seems SOOOo much work. Should I have gone downstairs
with her. I really didn't want to. I was just about sitting down,
finally myself, it was already late, I was tired. I'm kind of
egoistic ;-) And I think it's so exagerated to panic about a stupid
bug of which she KNOWS it doesn't do anything.

Greetings
Johanna
(Germany)

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: splashing@...
Absolutely.

We're new to parenting this way, and unschooling, and everything. Both
my DH and I come from rage-filled abusive homes, and we are doing our
clearly-stated mutually-darnedest to be better. Scott Noelle refers to
this as "parenting in the gap"... the distance between the parenting
you got, and the parenting you want to give.

So... both DH and I blow it all the flippin time. Say the wrong thing,
do the wrong thing, whatever. But we think it's more critical to do it
right than it is to seem perfect. So (and here's the critical bit)...
with the utmost respect for each other, we say "Hey... are you sure
you wanted to do that that way?" and then DS gets to see what a
"do-over" looks like, and what respectful questioning looks like. He
sees that grownups are not perfect, and that Mama and Papa not only
blow it, but are totally open to rethinking, redoing, changing course
to go to a better place.

-=-=-

YES!!!!!

I love the expression "parenting in the gap."

When our children see that we talk things out rather than go off and
secretly come to come possibly arbitrary conclusion, it helps them
navigate the world better. They SEE us modeling that behavior!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 8/27/06, Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
> For instance, yesterday she wanted to go
> downstairs, but there was some little bug. It was a male mosquito,
> those that are bigger than the females but which do not sting. She
> (7) knows that they don't but she panics. She wanted me to go
> downstairs with her. I didn't want to.

I don't like snakes. I'm not 7 :-) and I *know* that garden snakes
will not hurt me. I *know* that black snakes are harmless and will
rather slither away than attack. I *know* this, but it doesn't lessen
my fear of snakes. How long would it have taken you to walk her down
the stairs than to stand arguing about a "harmless" male misquito
(which I don't think are harmless because they help make more baby
misquitos which will bite :) ) ? Sounds like you spent much more
time dealing with the issue than just going down with her. And was
what you were doing that much more important than your daughter
wanting to spend time with you? My daughters are getting older now
and more independent. They like going off by themselves at the mall
and go to movies different than I want to see. So sometimes we go to
the movies and I'm in one theater and they are in another. Sort of
sad. I miss the times when they wanted to spend all their time with
me.

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 8/27/06, Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
> For the "old" Playstation (surely there are for the new one as well),
> we have like... "dancing-mats".

Yes!! Dance dance revolution or Pump-it-up. Lots of restless energy
spent trying to perfect the moves! The PS1 even had a DDR from Disney
and was fairly easy for younger bodies that didn't move quite as fast.
My son is 8 and coordination is not his middle name :) but he has
worked on the Pump-it-up (which is much harder than the DDR's) to
where he can do ok. Our mat recently broke (it got dropped where the
cord goes into the mat and broke some wires) but we will be getting a
new system soon. We love it as we are opposite of most people and
hybernate during the summer because it is just too dang hot to do
anything else!

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist