Rebecca De Hate

OK folks,

I just sent my first e-mail to unschooling basics and I felt
compelled to write yet another one. I will get right down to the
chase- I would like to lay out a scenario that led to my mother and
I having a grand fight... Anyway I recognize that is a choice I made
then and from the prospective I had at the time but I would like to
see how you folks would have possible approached this... Understand
too that I am searching the right way for my family to be at peace
and really feel that I should un-school....


OK here's the scenario. I had just taken my almost 4 year old
camping with my girlfriend and her kids and we were heading home and
he fell asleep for a bit. when he woke up he wanted to go to gramma
(who live across from me) so I turned the car around and started in
but then he changed his mind. so I pulled out of her drive way and
stated that I think we should go home and take a nap -- which led
into a tyraid which entailed screaming and kicking. So I took him
to his room and shut the door and told him to take a nap. In which
some where in there I think he could have came out on the couch but
he didn't even want to be nice. Then after about an hour or two
(which he did quiet down and stay in his room but didn't fall
asleep -- oh- well). OH I forgot during his time in his room I gave
him the choice to calm down and come out or take a nap, or he
couldn't go swimming -- then I took away going outside. (yikes I
can just see all of you cringing -- but I thought I was giving love
and logic -- choices.....) Anyway before we went to grandmas to eat
I explained to him that I didn't want him to give me a hard time
when it was time to come home (which he often does and then gramma
assumes something drastic must be going on at home...) Yep you
guessed it when it was time to come home Ian sat on his bike and
refused to move so I told him that he had a choice to ride home
nicely or I would go get the van an take him home in the van. When I
came back to get him in the van my mother was starting to walk him
home which I informed her not to that he made his choice and he
needed to ride home. Now I tried to even be nice about it to Ian
and tell him that he could even 'drive' home. but to no avail it
ended up being another screaming scene. In which Ian also grabbed
my hair and yanked so hard and I preseded to take him out and give
him three spankings (yep -- real smart huh -- with sarcasm in my
tone-- I know they don't work but???). I must say that even though
I'm sure I was loud I wasn't really mad at Ian as much as I was made
at my mother for not just helping me put in the car and telling hime
that he needed to go home (not tell him that she just "couldn't do
anything...) to say the least when I finally got him in the car and
was taking him home and even though he pulled my hair even more,
screamed bloody murder, and tried to kick me some more -- I just
carried him in to the house and in to his room. (understand that I
have tried holding him in the past but he just gets more mad -- but
I'm not sure I was holding him in a loving way...) I didn't yell or
loose my cool I just told him to come out when he calmed down. Now
when he came out still sobbing I just pulled him up on the couch
with me and held him until he went to sleep.


Now in my eyes at the time I had taken some LOVE AND LOGIC classes
and they had said to give the children choices but with consequences
behind them. From what I understand the LOVE AND LOGIC concept is
to help prepare children for the future -- for 'real' life. The
concept also wants you to deliver these positive choices with a
smile.. which I find hard when my child starts screaming in my face
even when I am just explaining to him why we need to go inside or
leave grammas, or ....

Anyway, please, give me your thoughts and I will keep reading more
stuff on un-schooling and start slowing infusing these ideas and
concepts.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 9, 2006, at 12:34 AM, Rebecca De Hate wrote:

> Anyway, please, give me your thoughts and I will keep reading more
> stuff on un-schooling and start slowing infusing these ideas and
> concepts.

All through what you wrote I kept thinking "control". Apparently the
classes are just a different method of getting the child to do what
the mom wants him to do!

> So I took him
> to his room and shut the door and told him to take a nap.

And if your husband decided your upsetness was because you were tired
and shut you in your room and told you to take a nap, would you?

He probably was tired and a nap would have helped. *BUT* what you did
was change the problem of him being tired to a problem of getting him
to nap. You turned *him* into the problem.

> In which
> some where in there I think he could have came out on the couch but
> he didn't even want to be nice.

Would *you* want to be nice to people who decided what you needed and
then made you do what they decided you needed to?

What if your husband discovered a new religion and decided you needed
it and dragged you to church every Sunday? Would his conviction that
he was right and his making you do what he "knew" you needed make you
see how right he was? Would it fill you with love for him that he was
making you do what he knew was best for you?

When dealing with kids it's helpful to see the world how *they're*
seeing it rather than how you're seeing it. From his point of view
he's feeling irritable. The last thing he wants is people bossing him
around!

Try to gain his trust that you're there to help him rather than there
to impose the solution you've decide is best for him.

If he's irritable/tired try soothing music, rocking him, a snack,
read or watch TV snuggled under the covers. Let him fall asleep on
your shoulder. (That's just the tip of the iceberg of possibilities.)

Think about which memory you'd hope he'd keep of you when he's grown:
being shut in his room and told to take a nap or snuggling under the
covers and falling asleep against you. That's often a good test of
whether a solution is one that's working towards a better
relationship. "Is this a memory I'd like him to have of me?"

> OH I forgot during his time in his room I gave
> him the choice to calm down and come out or take a nap, or he
> couldn't go swimming -- then I took away going outside. (yikes I
> can just see all of you cringing -- but I thought I was giving love
> and logic -- choices.....)

Those weren't the only two choices available. You narrowed his world
to two choices that you would let him have and made him pick.

Do you want liver or kidney for dinner? If you don't pick either, you
can't go to the movie with the family.

Choices are good for kids who get overwhelmed by choice. We can help
them by narrowing the possibilities down for them. We can say would
you like the Spongebob shirt or the Dragonball Z shirt. But that
doesn't mean they *have* to wear one of those two. That doesn't mean
they can't have a cookie if they decide it's a no shirt day ;-)

> Anyway before we went to grandmas to eat
> I explained to him that I didn't want him to give me a hard time
> when it was time to come home

Which is about making life convenient for you rather than helping him
navigate the world.

Kids *are* inconvenient! They do make life more difficult. But those
inconveniences are part of the package that we chose to take on when
we decided to have them. Adults look at kids lives and think how
great it is not to have responsibilities and think childhood is
glorious and then they get irritable when kids get demanding. If feel
like kids have the best of the world and they're asking for more.
They have the whole pie and they're asking for ours too. But it isn't
glorious. It really sucks being a kid because you're so powerless.
You can't do many of the things you want because you're too small.
You have to ask permission for or help with so many things and then
wait to see if it's convenient for an adult to do it for you. From a
kids' point of view it's not a lot different than being in prison.
Everything they do is because they're parents are allowing them to.
They know the privilege of doing it can be taken away at any moment.

But we can make their life different. Because we have the power to do
so.

Think about everything you do in the day and imagine having to ask
your husband to help or give you permission. If you want a bowl of
cereal or cup of coffee, how long would he make you wait until it was
convenient for him to stop his "important things" to get it for you?
If you wanted a new book to read from the library, would it be
several days before he could find a spot in his schedule to stop by
the library for you? What if you were full of feelings you didn't
understand and he started yelling at you and ordering you around to
make you do what he thought would fix you and stop you from being so
irritating?

> Yep you
> guessed it when it was time to come home Ian sat on his bike and
> refused to move so I told him that he had a choice to ride home
> nicely or I would go get the van an take him home in the van.

Which then turned into a power struggle. You've created a situation
where you two are adversaries: either he does what you think is best
for him out of two choices or you make him choose and then take
privileges away.

Would you want your best friend to treat you like that?

Be his partner. You know he has problems with transitions. Give him a
reminder as the time to leave is approaching. Don't say it in a
warning tone! ;-) Give him information. "Ten minutes until we leave."
And then *help* him leave by offering something to look forward to.
Sympathize with his feelings. Accept them. They're real, honest
feelings. Don't feel it's your job to fix his feelings but do feel
it's your job to create a nest for him to recover in. Tell him about
what he's going *to* rather than focusing on what he's leaving. Go
get a cookie at home and watch TV. Get some hot chocolate. Play a
game on the way home like "I Spy". You won't necessarily stop the
tears -- that isn't yours to control! -- but you can control the
atmosphere around him whether it's a pleasant one or one that feeds
into his sadness.

Think of leaving as like losing a pet. Telling him he better not be
upset when his dog dies isn't likely to make him not upset! Help him.
Be his partner.

> When I
> came back to get him in the van my mother was starting to walk him
> home which I informed her not to that he made his choice and he
> needed to ride home.

Your mom was right! ;-)

The goal was to get him home. You turned the goal into making him do
one of the two choices you'd offered. I'd apologize to her! ;-)

> Now I tried to even be nice about it to Ian
> and tell him that he could even 'drive' home.

You can put ketchup on your liver if you want.

> I know they don't work but???

You're at the "but ..." stage because you see your goal as making him
do what you've decided is right. When you let go of the control,
there isn't a need to make him do something. The goal is to help him
get what he needs. Look at *him* rather than where you're trying to
get him. If he's upset, soothe him!

It also helps to react to situations before they happen. There
probably wasn't much you could do about the nap in the van that he
woke up cranky from. We all have bad moments! But when it's possible,
it's better to tend to their needs before they start spiraling
downhill. It takes some maturing for kids to understand the subtle
feelings. They don't recognize or find it easy to not pay attention
to hungry. But at some point it gets to starving and they can't
ignore it and it's overwhelming. Feed them before they realize
they're starving. Help them wind down before they get over tired. If
you know a situation always ends badly, plan ahead -- with things
*you* can do to help rather than demanding a different response.

> I must say that even though
> I'm sure I was loud I wasn't really mad at Ian as much as I was made
> at my mother for not just helping me put in the car and telling hime
> that he needed to go home (not tell him that she just "couldn't do
> anything...)

And I think your mom was right! ;-) You'd switched goals from getting
home to him obeying you. I think it was right of her not to help.
From her point of view you'd turned into a tyrant!

> (understand that I
> have tried holding him in the past but he just gets more mad -- but
> I'm not sure I was holding him in a loving way...)

Different kids need different responses. Some kids like being held,
some just like mom nearby. But it's more useful to discuss -- and
people can tell you what has worked for their kids who've melted down
-- when their meltdowns are about the world not cooperating rather
than when you've created the frustration.

> Now in my eyes at the time I had taken some LOVE AND LOGIC classes
> and they had said to give the children choices but with consequences
> behind them.

Which is all about control. It's a technique for making the child do
what the parent wants.

Mindful parenting is about listening to the child and helping him get
what he wants.

> From what I understand the LOVE AND LOGIC concept is
> to help prepare children for the future -- for 'real' life.

Well to that I say :-P ;-)

Unschoolers -- and all kids who are under school age -- are already
living real life. Real life already presents us with choices that
have consequences. Real choices. Real consequences. There's no need
to practice. The only people who need to practice at real life are
ones who are in school, locked away from real life growing up in an
artificial reproduction of real life -- that ultimately doesn't
resemble real life at all.

Real choices are: "Would you like to go swimming now in the morning
though it's a bit cool or wait for the afternoon though it might
rain." And real choices have the option of "none of the above".

The "love and logic" feels like math word problems. "You have 70
cents and apples cost 25 cents. How many apples can you buy?" In real
life we can buy a pack of gum instead. Or save up. Or ask mom for
more money. Or pool our resources with our sister. Or ....

Real life is *way* more instructive than making up artificial choices
and artificial consequences. Real life is chaotic and very satisfying
*because* we're pulling something orderly from the chaos :-) not
because we figured out the one and only right answer. We may not
always come up with the best solution but coming up with something
from chaos that works is satisfying and builds confidence.

> The
> concept also wants you to deliver these positive choices with a
> smile..

Does it really help if I offer you the choice of liver or kidney with
a smile or not? Yucky choices that you're being forced to take
delivered with a smile ... Well, think of it this way, if you wanted
to create a villain, you'd have him deliver his choices of death by
drowning or death by fire with a smile.

> which I find hard when my child starts screaming in my face
> even when I am just explaining to him why we need to go inside or
> leave grammas, or ....

And which hero would you cheer for? The one who cowed down and chose
to be drowned or the one who fought for what he believed was right?

Funny how the aspects of personality we admire most in adults are the
ones that we deride so much in children. Being independent and
standing up for what you believe *is* inconvenient for others. But if
we're their partner in helping them get what they're trying to get
rather than their controller trying to make them do what we want life
is a lot more pleasant :-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 8/8/06, Rebecca De Hate <rebeccadehate@...> wrote:

> Now in my eyes at the time I had taken some LOVE AND LOGIC classes
> and they had said to give the children choices but with consequences
> behind them. From what I understand the LOVE AND LOGIC concept is
> to help prepare children for the future -- for 'real' life.

In real life I have more options than being calm in my room and taking
a nap on the couch. In real life I can rest in front of the tv or the
computer or while reading a book or while laying on the grass watching
clouds or while playing with a piece of clay or coloring in a book or
just sitting talking with other people. Yes; your son probably needed
was tired, but given the two options which neither sounds good, he
chose the other option which was to push at those options with
resistance. Same with going home from grandma's house. It looks like
they found a third option in having grandma walk him home.

It sounds like these LOVE AND LOGIC classes are geared towards
"logical for the parents" rather than "logical at all." In real life
if I decide that I want grandma to walk me home rather than go with
mom or go in the car, my consequence is not going to be being forced
into a car anyway. The consequence might be that mom feels a little
jealous, unless mom decides to walk with us in which case all three of
us can have fun together. Forcing a child to choose between two poor
decisions so that *your* life is easier (which I doubt it is based on
what you are writing) is just another form of coercive parenting. You
aren't really helping your child make choices for himself (which in
the real world there would be more than two choices). You are forcing
your child to conform to what you want to do by limiting his choices.

Perhaps in responding to your child when he is tired you could say,
"I'm exhausted after that camping trip (which is the only thing you
*can* say truthfully, because to say that he is tired is assuming
something that you can only do by looking at cues, not knowing how he
really feels). When we get home, I think I am going to veg in front
of the tv for a while before (whatever - unloading the car, going to
grandma's, taking a shower, etc.) Wanna join me? Maybe we could
watch that movie we've been wanting to see." Who knows, being in a
calm and relaxing environment he might have fallen asleep or he might
have just gotten enough rest. Also, it might not hurt to have an
"exit strategy" with grandma about other ways to leave without fuss.
Perhaps have grandma walk half way. Perhaps have grandma not say
things like, "I'm going to miss you" (which may make your son feel
like he is hurting grandma somehow). Perhaps having something equally
good waiting for him at home (a movie and popcorn or a swim or a book
you are reading, etc.) "After we leave grandma's we can come home
and work on this puzzle. I bet we can get it finished tonight."

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

April Morris

btdt with the whole Love & Logic thing. I've taken the classes and even
helped teach them. In a continuum of parenting, it's a better method than a
lot of what's out there....but it's not something I endorse or follow any
more. Remember that the goal of Love and Logic is to raise responsible
children. That can happen in lots of ways. As with my move from
school-at-home homeschooling to unschooling, my move from Love and Logic
parenting to mindful parenting was a gradual process. Something I wanted was
children that were respectful and I found that Love and Logic wasn't a
method that was respectful to my kids so how could I expect them to learn to
respect others. I gradually began to adapt Love and Logic until I was not
longer using Love and Logic. Here's an example that I started by adapting
until I saw it just wasn't a good way. In L&L, they want you to have
responsible children and an area that's addressed is laundry. They say that
if your child forgets their laundry and leaves it in the washer or dryer,
then you should bag it up until they can "earn" the right to have it back.
The problem I had with this, is that it wasn't fair. I often forget laundry
and what I want is for whoever is doing laundry and found mine is to have
them switch the load over.....what we have at our house is everyone happily
moves along whatever laundry is in process as they start their own. There
aren't any fights or hassles or shaming, it's just part of life with 6
people and one washer/dryer. And through this my kids learn and experience
respect for themselves and others. The other thing that drove me away from
L&L was the lack of allowing for normal human forgetfulness and treating it
all like a crime. I understand the goal is to help kids not expect to be
rescued all the time...but they take it way too far. Life itself allows for
those opportunities without imposing them. They say if you're leaving to go
somewhere and as you leave a child suddenly remembers something they needed
or wanted that you shouldn't turn around and go back, this way they will
remember better next time. Well, I stopped that when I realized how often I
turned around when I forgot something. If I was willing to do that for
myself or my spouse, shouldn't I also be willing to do that for my
children? And oddly enough, they are much better about remembering things
than I am!! I think my change all started with my early days of reading on
these lists and someone said that we should treat our kids the way we want
to be treated and the way we would treat our spouse or friends. I would
never treat my spouse or friends with the Love & Logic method....it would be
demeaning and condescending and down-right rude. My kids are respectful and
responsible.

--
~April
Mom to Kate-20, Lisa-17, Karl-15, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art www.artkunst23.com
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf the Grey


On 8/9/06, Rebecca De Hate <rebeccadehate@...> wrote:
>
> OK folks,
>
> I just sent my first e-mail to unschooling basics and I felt
> compelled to write yet another one. I will get right down to the
> chase- I would like to lay out a scenario that led to my mother and
> I having a grand fight... Anyway I recognize that is a choice I made
> then and from the prospective I had at the time but I would like to
> see how you folks would have possible approached this... Understand
> too that I am searching the right way for my family to be at peace
> and really feel that I should un-school....
>
> OK here's the scenario. I had just taken my almost 4 year old
> camping with my girlfriend and her kids and we were heading home and
> he fell asleep for a bit. when he woke up he wanted to go to gramma
> (who live across from me) so I turned the car around and started in
> but then he changed his mind. so I pulled out of her drive way and
> stated that I think we should go home and take a nap -- which led
> into a tyraid which entailed screaming and kicking. So I took him
> to his room and shut the door and told him to take a nap. In which
> some where in there I think he could have came out on the couch but
> he didn't even want to be nice. Then after about an hour or two
> (which he did quiet down and stay in his room but didn't fall
> asleep -- oh- well). OH I forgot during his time in his room I gave
> him the choice to calm down and come out or take a nap, or he
> couldn't go swimming -- then I took away going outside. (yikes I
> can just see all of you cringing -- but I thought I was giving love
> and logic -- choices.....) Anyway before we went to grandmas to eat
> I explained to him that I didn't want him to give me a hard time
> when it was time to come home (which he often does and then gramma
> assumes something drastic must be going on at home...) Yep you
> guessed it when it was time to come home Ian sat on his bike and
> refused to move so I told him that he had a choice to ride home
> nicely or I would go get the van an take him home in the van. When I
> came back to get him in the van my mother was starting to walk him
> home which I informed her not to that he made his choice and he
> needed to ride home. Now I tried to even be nice about it to Ian
> and tell him that he could even 'drive' home. but to no avail it
> ended up being another screaming scene. In which Ian also grabbed
> my hair and yanked so hard and I preseded to take him out and give
> him three spankings (yep -- real smart huh -- with sarcasm in my
> tone-- I know they don't work but???). I must say that even though
> I'm sure I was loud I wasn't really mad at Ian as much as I was made
> at my mother for not just helping me put in the car and telling hime
> that he needed to go home (not tell him that she just "couldn't do
> anything...) to say the least when I finally got him in the car and
> was taking him home and even though he pulled my hair even more,
> screamed bloody murder, and tried to kick me some more -- I just
> carried him in to the house and in to his room. (understand that I
> have tried holding him in the past but he just gets more mad -- but
> I'm not sure I was holding him in a loving way...) I didn't yell or
> loose my cool I just told him to come out when he calmed down. Now
> when he came out still sobbing I just pulled him up on the couch
> with me and held him until he went to sleep.
>
> Now in my eyes at the time I had taken some LOVE AND LOGIC classes
> and they had said to give the children choices but with consequences
> behind them. From what I understand the LOVE AND LOGIC concept is
> to help prepare children for the future -- for 'real' life. The
> concept also wants you to deliver these positive choices with a
> smile.. which I find hard when my child starts screaming in my face
> even when I am just explaining to him why we need to go inside or
> leave grammas, or ....
>
> Anyway, please, give me your thoughts and I will keep reading more
> stuff on un-schooling and start slowing infusing these ideas and
> concepts.
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lilith_pouia

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:

> All through what you wrote I kept thinking "control". Apparently the
> classes are just a different method of getting the child to do what
> the mom wants him to do!
>
Joyce, this has to be one of the best posts i've ever read. You made
it very easy to distinguish the difference between thinking you're
giving a child choices and really doing it. I found this post to be
very inspirational, and a great example and explanation of the whole
control issue. If you don't mind i'd like to save it to my computer to
reread it when i need a reminder, and to share it with others like dh,
mom, and my sis.Thank you for your insight.

Lilith

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: lilith_pouia@...

Joyce, this has to be one of the best posts i've ever read. You made
it very easy to distinguish the difference between thinking you're
giving a child choices and really doing it. I found this post to be
very inspirational, and a great example and explanation of the whole
control issue.

-=-=-

Yeah---Joyce is kind of brilliant like that! <G> She does that *all*
the time!

Her "voice" was what made the most sense when I was trying to wade
through this unschooling pool.

We're lucky---and honored---to have her here!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
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rebecca de

Joyce -- all I can say is OH MY GOD your so right! Thank you for responding and responding with love and light! I have recognized that is a power struggle -- and that much of this issue is about control. The funny thing is that I have been struggling also with my own mother about control. I am 37 and she still want to tell me what to do -- now as you have said she has Ians best interest in mind and she was right about what to do with him (she did partically call me a tyrant..) Since I've been fighting with my mother about many issues lately I knew that there was a lesson here!! And I'm finally realizing what it is. I had to recognize my control issue!!! Now, hopefully by applying unschooling basics just maybe she will start doing the same for me -- but this might be kind of hard since she 70 and i'm 37. oh well on to the important stuff!!







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rebecca de

April,

Thank you for your response. Love & Logic was obviously not completely working for me either. So now it's time for a more mindful way....






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

And, even better, try to find ways he can stay and NOT have to leave
when he's not ready.

The more you're able to do that - help him get what he wants - the
more he'll be willing to cooperate when you can't fully make things
work out his way. That will only happen when the adversarial dynamics
are gone and he feels like the two of you are partners.

You can remind yourself that Ian doesn't like transitions - so let's
try to have as few of those in a day as possible. There is NOTHING
wrong with creating a lifestyle that suits your own real children.
Some people criticize that - they think that if you "cater to" kids,
the kids will be spoiled. But that's not true - when they know that
you're on their side, that you WILL truly try to give them what they
want, then they can handle not always getting what they want far more
easily.

-pam

On Aug 9, 2006, at 4:32 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

>> Yep you
>> guessed it when it was time to come home Ian sat on his bike and
>> refused to move so I told him that he had a choice to ride home
>> nicely or I would go get the van an take him home in the van.
>
> Which then turned into a power struggle. You've created a situation
> where you two are adversaries: either he does what you think is best
> for him out of two choices or you make him choose and then take
> privileges away.
>
> Would you want your best friend to treat you like that?
>
> Be his partner. You know he has problems with transitions. Give him a
> reminder as the time to leave is approaching. Don't say it in a
> warning tone! ;-) Give him information. "Ten minutes until we leave."

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 9, 2006, at 9:09 AM, April Morris wrote:

> someone said that we should treat our kids the way we want
> to be treated and the way we would treat our spouse or friends.

And also think about how you'd want your kids to treat you when
you're old and dependent on them to take you to the doctor's and the
grocery store and to carry your groceries in.

"No, Mom, I'm not going back for the medicine you forgot. You need to
learn to remember."

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 9, 2006, at 10:02 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> Joyce, this has to be one of the best posts i've ever read. You made
> it very easy to distinguish the difference between thinking you're
> giving a child choices and really doing it.

Thank you!

It is so so hard I think to see control when what we are seeing is us
being right and the child being wrong. The only thing that seems to
make sense is to get the child to see how wrong they are.

But when you can step back and look at it, it really isn't pretty!
I've had my daughter say things back to me that sounded reasonable
when I said them but take on such a different meaning when said back!

> If you don't mind i'd like to save it to my computer to
> reread it when i need a reminder, and to share it with others like dh,
> mom, and my sis.Thank you for your insight.

Absolutely. Whatever helps :-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 9, 2006, at 11:37 AM, rebecca de wrote:

> Joyce -- all I can say is OH MY GOD your so right! Thank you for
> responding and responding with love and light! I have recognized
> that is a power struggle -- and that much of this issue is about
> control.

Thank you :-) I think it's especially tough for people who grew up
being controlled. It was sort of implied by the adults that it was
their turn to get their way and the kids would get their turn to have
life their way when they grew up. But it was lie, at least as we
imagined it. Growing up we take on a bunch of responsibilities and we
can't always do what we want. There's dinner to make There's the
house to clean. There's shopping to do. And "our turn" often comes at
the expense of others, pushing them away and controlling them to at
least make life less irritating. :-/

But we *can* have our way. We just have to redefine "our way" as
encompassing the whole family. Helping everyone including ourselves
be happy and getting what we want.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: rebeccadehate@...

Now in my eyes at the time I had taken some LOVE AND LOGIC classes
and they had said to give the children choices but with consequences
behind them. From what I understand the LOVE AND LOGIC concept is
to help prepare children for the future -- for 'real' life. The
concept also wants you to deliver these positive choices with a
smile.. which I find hard when my child starts screaming in my face
even when I am just explaining to him why we need to go inside or
leave grammas, or ....

-=-=-=-

OHMYGOD!

Dump the Love and Logic!!!

It's NOT loving OR logical!

Look at your son as an alien in a strange wold. Your job is his partner
and guide. Be gentle and kind and generous and patient and respectful.
Treat him as you would a distant family member who is visiting from
Russia or China or France---where they have different language and
customs and etiquette. Trust that he's doing the absolute best he can
with he limited tools he has. It's your job to help him acquire those
tools in the gentlest way you can.

And *RIGHT NOW* is real life---it's not something that happens in the
future.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

rebecca de

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

Dump the Love and Logic!!!

It's NOT loving OR logical!


Great suggestion!! I want to share that I have begun to pay attention even more to Ian and figure out what he needs. For instance, today I took him to his older sister --so she could drive him up to his dads and Ian was well aware that he was going to his daddy's for a couple of days. However, when we arrived at the meeting point Ian woke up from his cat-nap and was not happy to say the least. So, I tried extra attention, hugging him, asking him what was "wrong". Basically I realize he does not like these transitions -- lately he's been fine but we've been pretty tight this week and I think he just didn't want to go (he had stated this a couple time too during the week). Anyway, I did start to get upset at one point but I just got him back out of Amber's car one last time and looked at him and asked him if I actually took him back to "sissy's" house (where they were leaving from after they picked her husband up...) would that work?? And it did. once I got there I
went in their house for a few minutes put Ian in there car gave him one more hug and kiss and off we all went. Whew, that was much nicer. In the past he has gone to his daddy's on a bad note and neither one of us wanted this!!


I also wanted to mention to all of you at unschooling basics that I asked Ian what he would like rather than a spanking and he said for me to play with him... go figure:)



_,_._,___




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: rebeccadehate@...

I also wanted to mention to all of you at unschooling basics that I
asked Ian
what he would like rather than a spanking and he said for me to play
with him...
go figure:)

-=-=-

Smart kid! <g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6

________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Nicole Willoughby

IMO there isnt really a "perfect" parent and it wont happen over night. But I do believe that if you apologize when you know you have been wrong and keep trying and considering your childs needs things will be ok.

Just tonight my 3 year old wanted to go with me to target and walmart . We get to walmart and she wants to get out and walk...ok no prob I make the trip as quick as possible and we head to the register.

As I pay I start encouraging her to get in the basket , no luck. I warn her that once we get to the door she needs to hold my hand, be carried, or get in the basket. We get to the door and she has a fit. Im frustrated and tired so I pick her up and tell her I have to hold you...she screams her head off and I calmly walk to the car with a very quick explination of how cars cant see her. Then get her in her seat saying ok are you thirsty? do you want your shoes off?
When I think about it after the fact Im thinking hrmmm she prob would have responded well to being offered a back ride out to the car while I pulled the basket ...or she would have been safe enough if she pushed the basket with me.
Anyhow thing is When my now 7 year old was three I would have been out in the car telling her how dissapointed I was that she had acted that way and sadly feeling like I was doing the right thing because I wasnt spanking her or yelling at her.

Nicole


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Aug 11, 2006, at 6:35 PM, rebecca de wrote:

> I asked Ian what he would like rather than a spanking and he said
> for me to play with him...


You might write that on a pretty card and put it on your bathroom
mirror!!!

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]