Anne B

my 8 yo J has been wildly exuberant all day. I got home from church (just
the baby and I had gone) at around 2 and he has been insane since. its
after 9 and he is still at it. i don't know what to do about him. he
doesn't obey, not without threats of violence, or violence, when he is like
this. ask him to do something, he says no and runs away. ask him not to do
something, he smiles and does it some more. suggest that he go out and play
basketball, which he loves to do, he won't do it. we are so tired of him
throwing things, running through the house, making all kinds of noise,
hurting siblings, destroying things, deliberately doing what he's been
asked many times not to do. sometimes all of the above at the same time.
this will go on and on until i or dh looses our temper and comes after
him. i am trying to do the gentle parenting thing. i always AP'd him and
never spanked him til he was about 2.5, and then when on rare occasion i
did he'd just laugh. i've always tried to be a gentle parent. he's always
been good at pushing, and pushing, and pushing until i explode. its like he
thinks he can do whatever he wants. it seems like the only thing he will
listen to is when my dh comes after him and yells.

and yet i am trying to be less controlling (my mom would say i don't
control enough) and trying not to punish or threaten. which leaves me with
what? if actions have no consequence, how does he learn to behave in an
acceptable, responsible manner?

for example, he wanted to build his lego train set this afternoon. i didn't
want to get it out, but i did, so i put it out on the counter in our art
room in the basement and went back upstairs where i was sitting with the
baby, sorting lego. he soon lost interest in that and poured a bottle of
finger paint out on a paper (on a different table). my 3 yo told me about
it. he never mentioned it. when i got time to go down i cleaned it up. i
didn't yell, threaten, punish etc. when next i saw him i told him i was
disappointed he did that, and reminded him that he knows better. he was
just smiling like who cares.

they mostly eat what they want, when they want, and sleep when and where
they want. they don't have any assigned chores. they have a free
life. i've been told they need limits, boundaries, routines, and limited
choices, and that such would make my life easier. i want them to be free to
make choices, but ours is not a happy home with all the chaos, destruction
and yelling. how can i be a peaceful parent? how can we have a joyful home?
right now i am ready to put my 8 yo in school just to have a break! things
are very different when he is not around. but i have not been good at
enforcing routines, etc. and i don't see how it would make my life easier
either.

my mother says my children will never learn to be responsible, or self
disciplined, and that it will be my fault. what would you do? i'll be happy
to provide additional details about his behaviors and our home life if that
would help.

thanks for reading.

Anne

Anne
SAHM mom to Jeffrey 8, Patrick 5, Nicole 3 and Colleen born 11-29-05
in the Allegheny Mountains of PA



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hilltowner4

Hi Anne,

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. It sounds like a very
tough situation and you sound like you are trying very hard to gently
parent. Hang in there . . . things will get better!

I wish I had a good answer for you. I have a 7 yo. dd who also can be
quite explosive and physical at times. I've found that sitting down
with her when she's not out-of-control and talking about what she
thinks she may be needing when she explodes can be really helpful. We
also talk about what ways she can express herself without hurting
others or their things. She is a very passionate, high-spirited
child. Her highs are real high and her lows are real low and the
in-betweens sometimes seem rare - lol. Some books that may help are
"Your Spirited Child," by Mary Sheedy Kurchinka and "The Explosive
Child," by Ross Greene. Both of these books helped me learn more
about where my child was coming from and gave me excellent ideas about
helping her.

I hope some of this is helpful. I'd love to write more, but my 3 yo.
is calling! There are so many fantastic posters here, I know you will
get some great answers.

Hang in there!

Marla mom to Amy (7 yo.) and Lily (3 yo.)
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 16, 2006, at 9:34 PM, Anne B wrote:

> he has been insane since. its
> after 9 and he is still at it. i don't know what to do about him. he
> doesn't obey, not without threats of violence, or violence, when he
> is like
> this. ask him to do something, he says no and runs away. ask him
> not to do
> something, he smiles and does it some more. suggest that he go out
> and play
> basketball, which he loves to do, he won't do it. we are so tired
> of him
> throwing things, running through the house, making all kinds of noise,
> hurting siblings, destroying things, deliberately doing what he's been
> asked many times not to do.

I think at the heart of this, he's trying to communicate something
and you're speaking different languages. He's trying to get something
and he's ending up with something else. So he just tries harder.

It's similar to what you're doing with him. You say stop. He doesn't
stop. So you try the same thing, just harder. Louder, yelling,
threatening.

That's what he's doing. He wants something. So he just keeps
escalating his attempts. *He* may not even know what it is and he
definitely doesn't know how to go about getting it.

That doesn't help solve it, but maybe help you look at him
differently so you can try something new.

I would second the recommendation of the books: Raising Your Spirit
Child and The Explosive Child. So many people have said after reading
them that they can see their child in there and can now understand.
Sort of like learning their language! :-)

In the meantime, rather than focusing on getting him to do what you
want, say "No," and stop him if you need to but then immediately
focus on helping him get what he wants. If he says "wake the baby"
or something unkind, trust that that isn't it! He may have settled on
that because he's lost focus of what he wants or he's just lost
control of what he wants. But do say "I can't let anyone hurt my
kids. Now let's go out and figure out what you want and how I can
help you. What would you like for a snack while we figure that
out." (Or something to that effect. Don't turn *him* into the
problem. Get back to the original problem that began the downward
spiral.

> i've always tried to be a gentle parent. he's always
> been good at pushing, and pushing, and pushing until i explode. its
> like he
> thinks he can do whatever he wants.

What causes him to push? Why is he pushing? What's he trying to get?
There's something that's causing the behavior. Trying to stop the
behavior doesn't eliminate the cause. (Obviously as you well know!)

There's some disconnect there. He's wanting and wanting *something*
but he's not getting that through to anyone. What he's getting is
"No. Stop. Don't." He does of course need to hear No when he's
hurting someone or something but then he needs help getting what it
is he's trying to get.

He *should* feel he can do anything he wants. But he should also feel
that he shouldn't hurt others while doing so. I think it will help to
see him not as wrong for having the idea that he can do what he wants
how ever he wants but that he got that idea for a good (to him)
reason. There's a legitimate reason he's come to that conclusion.
There's something he's missing that he needs.

> for example, he wanted to build his lego train set this afternoon.
> i didn't
> want to get it out, but i did, so i put it out on the counter in
> our art
> room in the basement and went back upstairs where i was sitting
> with the
> baby, sorting lego. he soon lost interest in that and poured a
> bottle of
> finger paint out on a paper (on a different table).

Maybe what he wanted was for you to play with the train with him.

If he knew he wasn't supposed to pour the paint out and did so
anyway, that's a pretty clear "I'm not getting the attention I need."

Could you find a way to spend some time with just him alone? Go to a
park or fishing or for a cup of hot chocolate or .... If you can at
all swing doing that with each child, just being with them,
connecting just with them, it will help fill them up when they may be
feeling emptied.

> they mostly eat what they want, when they want, and sleep when and
> where
> they want. they don't have any assigned chores. they have a free
> life. i've been told they need limits, boundaries, routines, and
> limited
> choices, and that such would make my life easier.

Limits, etc will make life easier in some ways and harder in other
ways. It's a compromise. If children learn they need to do x "or
else" -- depending on the personality of the child -- x will often
get done. But what gets sacrificed is a loving relationship with the
children.

But what you're doing now isn't getting you a loving relationship
either.

*Maybe* what you've done is focus on your role of what you "have to
do" to raise a family. Maybe your top priority is the things you have
to do: clean, laundry, shop, tend to the baby. Do you find yourself
regularly saying no to children's requests to do something because
there's things you have to do? Or have they learned not to ask
because they know that's your answer? Do they feel that if they ask
you to do something for them that you will put it at the top of your
list? (Obviously we can't always. But the more we do set aside what
we're doing when it's possible (rather than when it's convenient
since it's rarely convenient!), the more confidence they have that
they truly are number one for us and the more willing they are to
wait when we can't stop what we're doing right away.)

I don't really know. I'm just throwing out likely things that would
cause a child to essentially stick his tongue out at his parent. What
you've written paints a picture of a disconnect between parents and
children, a divide between those who work to keep the house running
and those who should be off playing.

Joyce

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Deb

--- In [email protected], Anne B <kbarnett3@...> wrote:
>
> my 8 yo J has been wildly exuberant all day. I got home from church
>(just
> the baby and I had gone) at around 2 and he has been insane since.
If that was my son, I'd say what it was was that he needed ME with him
and that he was saying he missed me and felt left out because I went
off without him, taking instead this small "intruder". I might also
want to check in with my DH and find out if they had eaten recently
(sometimes they both will get focused on whatever they are doing and
both DH and DS will 'forget' to go eat something). The combination of
hungry and anything else (like missing me) will send DS off the deep
end behaviorally. One thing we found back when he was about 5 (he's 8
now) was he would start pushing buttons until we got aggravated. One
time I flat asked "why are you not stopping when you aren't happy with
the outcome?" (okay not so nicely worded but you get the gist). He
said "My brain won't let me stop" in such a pitiful voice - he didn't
WANT to be aggravating but he was wound so tightly at that point he
could NOT stop. That's when we connected the needs food to behavior.
BY making sure he gets regular input of food, he is better able to
manage other stuff.

I WOH fulltime so when I get home, DS wants ME - my focused attention.
Sounds like your DS wanted that too. But odds are, when you got home
you had 101 things that you "had to" do - feed the baby, get the
little kids down for a nap, do the dishes, etc. So he escalated until
he GOT what he wanted - your attention, even if it was your FRUSTRATED
attention. What works for us is that when I've been gone (whether it's
to work or to church by myself occasionally or grocery shopping alone
or whatever), I *deliberately* plan to give the first 15 minutes of
attention to DS. That may mean talking to him while unpacking
groceries (which also draws him in to help - he is quite proud that he
can carry 2 whole full gallons of milk on his own). It might mean
leaving the incoming mail on the table while I go see what he's been
building with his k'nex, whatever. We also do a one night per week mom
& son night - we may go do something "useful" (like this week we need
to return his new life vest and get a bigger size) or we may just go
sit at Starbucks or whatever. Just to spend an hour or so alone, just
us two. He has repeatedly said that's his favorite part of the whole
week. And, knowing he is getting that focused time, the rest of the
week is less turbulent with him vying for attention with my work, the
household stuff, my time with DH, etc. He knows his time will come, in
small and large doses.

Now, I don't have multiple kids so I'll toss in that disclaimer - it's
easier with just one kid. But the same principles, I thin, can apply.

--Deb

Anne B

Wow, Joyce. You really make a lot of sense!

At 10:40 AM 7/18/2006 -0400, you wrote:

>That doesn't help solve it, but maybe help you look at him
>differently so you can try something new.

Yes that does help me change my view of the situation.


> Now let's go out and figure out what you want and how I can
>help you. What would you like for a snack while we figure that
>out." (Or something to that effect. Don't turn *him* into the
>problem. Get back to the original problem that began the downward
>spiral.

That makes so much sense. I hope I can learn to be as kind as you are.
Yesterday he started getting wild and I was able to get his attention like
you suggested and it went very well! I explained to him that I WAS helping
him get what he wanted, I think he thought I was ignoring him or pushing
his needs to the back of the list. Once he realized that what I was doing
was clearing a space for his things, he was a changed child!


>Maybe what he wanted was for you to play with the train with him.

THat is very likely, in hind sight, though he never verbalized
it. Yesterday after I cleared a space for him and got the set out, I asked
him to please let me know if he needed help finding any parts. I ended up
sitting down with him for awhile and he loved it.


>Could you find a way to spend some time with just him alone?

I think that is a great idea, though at this point baby has to come too. I
am definitely going to work on that idea. If we can sneak out without the
other two kids knowing. however, they'll be upset when they find out.


>But what you're doing now isn't getting you a loving relationship
>either.

very true. it always feels like there is a battle going on between he and
myself.


>*Maybe* what you've done is focus on your role of what you "have to
>do" to raise a family. Maybe your top priority is the things you have
>to do: clean, laundry, shop, tend to the baby. Do you find yourself
>regularly saying no to children's requests to do something because
>there's things you have to do?

Oh yes. You have hit the nail on the head.

> Or have they learned not to ask because they know that's your answer?

maybe so! maybe that is why they go and do the things they do!

>Do they feel that if they ask you to do something for them that you will
>put it at the top of your list?

I'm sure they do not have this impression at all.

>(Obviously we can't always. But the more we do set aside what
>we're doing when it's possible (rather than when it's convenient
>since it's rarely convenient!), the more confidence they have that
>they truly are number one for us and the more willing they are to
>wait when we can't stop what we're doing right away.)

I was thinking about that lately, about how I so often put them off because
it is inconvenient to jump up and do as they ask. Wait a minute, in a
minute, in a little while, later...they hear that a lot. I always have a
million things to do, or a million emails to read. I seldom put their
requests first. So that is something to work on. I tend to get very focused
on what I am doing. I suppose kids are an inconvenience. But I need to look
at it differently. After all, these kids are my life.

>I don't really know. I'm just throwing out likely things that would
>cause a child to essentially stick his tongue out at his parent. What
>you've written paints a picture of a disconnect between parents and
>children, a divide between those who work to keep the house running
>and those who should be off playing.

thank you. i look forward to learning more on this list. more about being
kind and gentle and paying more attention to my kids. i can see i need to
focus on my oldest child more than ever before. i don't want to be at odds
with him all the time. i don't want him to become an angry, rebellious
teenager. i have learned already that when i think i have control of the
kids, control by coercion is not real control, and won't work at all when
the kids are older. so i am desperate to find better ways of doing things.
i'll read the books mentioned. how about Connection Parenting by Pam Leo,
and Raising our children, raising ourselves by Naomi Aldort...can anyone
recommend them?

thanks,

Anne




Anne
SAHM mom to Jeffrey 8, Patrick 5, Nicole 3 and Colleen born 11-29-05
in the Allegheny Mountains of PA



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marji

At 10:11 7/19/2006, you wrote:
>That makes so much sense. I hope I can learn to be as kind as you are.
>Yesterday he started getting wild and I was able to get his attention like
>you suggested and it went very well! I explained to him that I WAS helping
>him get what he wanted, I think he thought I was ignoring him or pushing
>his needs to the back of the list. Once he realized that what I was doing
>was clearing a space for his things, he was a changed child!

Well, this really choked me up!!! Your whole post is so sweet. I
have a feeling things are going to get onto a wonderful new track for
you and your kids!

~Marji

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