Quote
Ren Allen
I just saw this online, while doing some research. It's from John
Holt's "Instead of Education":
"Power cancels out moral rights and obligations. The slave has no
moral duty to his master. He has every moral right to dodge and escape
the whip if he can, any way he can. No one is morally obliged to hold
still for punishment. A ten-year-old, a proud, brave, stubborn child,
of great character, helped me to see this. One day she refused to go
to French class, which she (sensibly) hated. She sat at her desk
reading, while I kept telling her to go. Finally I said that it was my
job and my duty to make her go to French class, and that if I could
not get her to go any other way I would drag her there. She did not
move. I approached her desk, ready to carry out my threat. When I was
about three feet away she suddenly looked up, slammed the book shut,
banged it on the desk, stood up, and said, 'All right, I'm going! But
it's just brute force that is making me go, just brute force!' She was
right; that's all it was."
--from Instead of Education
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Holt's "Instead of Education":
"Power cancels out moral rights and obligations. The slave has no
moral duty to his master. He has every moral right to dodge and escape
the whip if he can, any way he can. No one is morally obliged to hold
still for punishment. A ten-year-old, a proud, brave, stubborn child,
of great character, helped me to see this. One day she refused to go
to French class, which she (sensibly) hated. She sat at her desk
reading, while I kept telling her to go. Finally I said that it was my
job and my duty to make her go to French class, and that if I could
not get her to go any other way I would drag her there. She did not
move. I approached her desk, ready to carry out my threat. When I was
about three feet away she suddenly looked up, slammed the book shut,
banged it on the desk, stood up, and said, 'All right, I'm going! But
it's just brute force that is making me go, just brute force!' She was
right; that's all it was."
--from Instead of Education
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Deb
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
mom's twin): when they were attending a parochial school, "someone"
in an area of the room talked - the teacher didn't know who, just
the general region. So, all 4 or 6 people in that area were called
to the front of the classroom for punishment, including my mom and
my aunt. They were lined up and told to hold out their hands for the
ruler. My aunt was somewhere midway in the line. When the ruler got
to her, she stuck her hands behind her back and despite
repeated "dire threats", refused to take the punishment. The
teacher, furious, took her out to the principle (parenthetically
saving the rest of the lineup from the ruler). The teacher went back
to class and the principle asked my aunt what happened. She
explained (she was innocent BTW) and the principle said "Oh okay"
and had my aunt help her file some papers or something to kill some
time then sent her back to the classroom.
--Deb
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>Reminds me of an episode in "family lore" regarding my aunt (my
> No one is morally obliged to hold
> still for punishment.
mom's twin): when they were attending a parochial school, "someone"
in an area of the room talked - the teacher didn't know who, just
the general region. So, all 4 or 6 people in that area were called
to the front of the classroom for punishment, including my mom and
my aunt. They were lined up and told to hold out their hands for the
ruler. My aunt was somewhere midway in the line. When the ruler got
to her, she stuck her hands behind her back and despite
repeated "dire threats", refused to take the punishment. The
teacher, furious, took her out to the principle (parenthetically
saving the rest of the lineup from the ruler). The teacher went back
to class and the principle asked my aunt what happened. She
explained (she was innocent BTW) and the principle said "Oh okay"
and had my aunt help her file some papers or something to kill some
time then sent her back to the classroom.
--Deb
marji
At 11:04 7/12/2006, you wrote:
Marji, appalled
P.S. I never had to go through the humiliation of parochial school,
but my husband did, and he's *still* getting over it at 53 years of
age. He has told me stories that made my jaw drop.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>...the principle asked my aunt what happened. SheOMG! That principal was a bloomin' anarchist!! Where's my ruler?! (bwg)
>explained (she was innocent BTW) and the principle said "Oh okay"
>and had my aunt help her file some papers or something to kill some
>time then sent her back to the classroom.
Marji, appalled
P.S. I never had to go through the humiliation of parochial school,
but my husband did, and he's *still* getting over it at 53 years of
age. He has told me stories that made my jaw drop.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kiersten Pasciak
> --- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"Nope, but sometimes it does make it worse if you resist.
> <starsuncloud@> wrote:
> >
> > No one is morally obliged to hold
> > still for punishment.
One of our local moms was telling me about how she "had" to spank
her 7 year old because she had refused to be punished with hot
sauce. She closed her mouth and wouldn't open it and then ran away
from her. Apparently she had mad a rude remark aimed at her mom. The
punishment for saying "rude" things in their house is to have hot
sauce poured into their mouth. I asked the mom what the point of
that was and she said "Well, they have to learn to be respectful!".
Oh, the irony...
I think people do learn to hold still for punishment when they weigh
the potential outcomes of resistance (although obviously they still
are not morally obliged).
Kiersten
Maisha Khalfani
That is powerful! It makes me think really hard about how I parent sometimes.
Maisha Khalfani
Khalfani Family Adventures
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
EarthSpirit Readings
http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html<http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html>
Maisha Khalfani
Khalfani Family Adventures
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
EarthSpirit Readings
http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html<http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html>
----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen<mailto:starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 10:01 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Quote
I just saw this online, while doing some research. It's from John
Holt's "Instead of Education":
"Power cancels out moral rights and obligations. The slave has no
moral duty to his master. He has every moral right to dodge and escape
the whip if he can, any way he can. No one is morally obliged to hold
still for punishment. A ten-year-old, a proud, brave, stubborn child,
of great character, helped me to see this. One day she refused to go
to French class, which she (sensibly) hated. She sat at her desk
reading, while I kept telling her to go. Finally I said that it was my
job and my duty to make her go to French class, and that if I could
not get her to go any other way I would drag her there. She did not
move. I approached her desk, ready to carry out my threat. When I was
about three feet away she suddenly looked up, slammed the book shut,
banged it on the desk, stood up, and said, 'All right, I'm going! But
it's just brute force that is making me go, just brute force!' She was
right; that's all it was."
--from Instead of Education
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle/Melbrigða
On 7/12/06, marji <marji@...> wrote:
school to have one's knuckles or bottom whacked with a ruler or
paddle. It's still in the "parent student handbook" that corporal
punishment will be served when all other forms of discipline are
exhausted. When I was in third grade I had been sent out of the room
for something. Can't even remember now what it was, but I know that
whatever the offense was I hadn't committed it. I was leaning against
the wall waiting for the teacher to come out "and deal with me." When
she came out she took one look at me and was livid. She whacked me
with a ruler faster than I could imagine. I asked (cried) what had I
done and she pointed to the wall where someone had drawn on the wall.
I told her I didn't do it and she told me I was lying and whacked me
again. I didn't even have a friggin' pencil! I pointed this out and
she whacked me again for being insolent. I hated third grade.
After that my mom wrote a note to the school, teacher and school
district saying that none of her children were ever to be hit again.
I did the same for my kids when they briefly went to public school.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
>Down here when I was going to school one needn't go to parochial
> P.S. I never had to go through the humiliation of parochial school,
> but my husband did, and he's *still* getting over it at 53 years of
> age. He has told me stories that made my jaw drop.
>
school to have one's knuckles or bottom whacked with a ruler or
paddle. It's still in the "parent student handbook" that corporal
punishment will be served when all other forms of discipline are
exhausted. When I was in third grade I had been sent out of the room
for something. Can't even remember now what it was, but I know that
whatever the offense was I hadn't committed it. I was leaning against
the wall waiting for the teacher to come out "and deal with me." When
she came out she took one look at me and was livid. She whacked me
with a ruler faster than I could imagine. I asked (cried) what had I
done and she pointed to the wall where someone had drawn on the wall.
I told her I didn't do it and she told me I was lying and whacked me
again. I didn't even have a friggin' pencil! I pointed this out and
she whacked me again for being insolent. I hated third grade.
After that my mom wrote a note to the school, teacher and school
district saying that none of her children were ever to be hit again.
I did the same for my kids when they briefly went to public school.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
Karen Swanay
During research for a project I came across this idea. I "snipped" it from
the document and offer it here. I find it haunting and terrifying while at
the same time I believe it to be something we should all think about. Even
when our families do not have secrets which this might bring to mind, the
idea is the same. Once you throw off the mantle of "convention" ...there is
no going back.
"When you dare to tell the truth in a family of lies, you commit the
ultimate act of betrayal by crossing over -- defecting from a territory
occupied by turbulent histories and perilous borders. Once you cross that
line of secrecy, you can no longer turn back." ~ Aurora Chang-Ross
******
I won't fully process this thought for some time. But I'd like to hear what
others think and how it applies or doesn't to RA.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the document and offer it here. I find it haunting and terrifying while at
the same time I believe it to be something we should all think about. Even
when our families do not have secrets which this might bring to mind, the
idea is the same. Once you throw off the mantle of "convention" ...there is
no going back.
"When you dare to tell the truth in a family of lies, you commit the
ultimate act of betrayal by crossing over -- defecting from a territory
occupied by turbulent histories and perilous borders. Once you cross that
line of secrecy, you can no longer turn back." ~ Aurora Chang-Ross
******
I won't fully process this thought for some time. But I'd like to hear what
others think and how it applies or doesn't to RA.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 17, 2011, at 8:18 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:
mantle or blinders, something that traps people.
Conventional ideas exist because they work for the goals of a big
chunk of people. The bell curve isn't something people are forced
into. It's natural. Not everyone exists at the fringes!
The problem isn't with the ideas. It's with people not examining their
own goals and not examining if the conventional route will take them
there.
I'm also not comfortable with the idea of ideas controlling people. In
this context, people control themselves. It's totally in their power
to step back and examine or to follow without questioning whether the
route matches where they'd like to go.
Once someone decides to examine what their goals are, examine what
paths can lead them there, it's not a matter of can't go back but a
matter of realizing there are better routes.
Some people feel powerless to create the life they want so they create
fiction instead. And to maintain the pretense the fiction is real,
others need to pretend it's real too.
I think Aurora's saying that once the kid points out the Emperor has
no clothes, it's pretty impossible to maintain the fiction ;-)
The more empowered someone feels, the less they need lies and fiction.
Do you mean RU?
Either way, using acronyms is offputting to new people. It's like a
secret language used by "those in the know". Clarity is far more
important to discussing unschooling than a secret club handshake ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Once you throw off the mantle of "convention" ...there isI'm not comfortable with thinking of conventional ideas as like a
> no going back.
mantle or blinders, something that traps people.
Conventional ideas exist because they work for the goals of a big
chunk of people. The bell curve isn't something people are forced
into. It's natural. Not everyone exists at the fringes!
The problem isn't with the ideas. It's with people not examining their
own goals and not examining if the conventional route will take them
there.
I'm also not comfortable with the idea of ideas controlling people. In
this context, people control themselves. It's totally in their power
to step back and examine or to follow without questioning whether the
route matches where they'd like to go.
Once someone decides to examine what their goals are, examine what
paths can lead them there, it's not a matter of can't go back but a
matter of realizing there are better routes.
Some people feel powerless to create the life they want so they create
fiction instead. And to maintain the pretense the fiction is real,
others need to pretend it's real too.
I think Aurora's saying that once the kid points out the Emperor has
no clothes, it's pretty impossible to maintain the fiction ;-)
The more empowered someone feels, the less they need lies and fiction.
> how it applies or doesn't to RA.RA?
Do you mean RU?
Either way, using acronyms is offputting to new people. It's like a
secret language used by "those in the know". Clarity is far more
important to discussing unschooling than a secret club handshake ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
RA = unimportant...a by-product of doing three projects at once, ADD, and
typing while thinking about something else. Sorry. I didn't even notice I
had done it until I read your response. I think I had meant to say RU as
short hand. Sorry.
Aurora was discussing her multi-racial heritage and how she was treated by
various people in her life, and taught to hide her mixed blood as a deep
secret. Her family kept other secrets but this is the one she was
discussing. I thought it was salient in that once we decide that there is a
better way, a kinder way, a more loving and trusting way to parent, partner,
and friend...we may often find that those who are not so inclined react with
hostility or contempt. I believe this to be for many reasons not the least
of which is "If you think THAT is the best way to ... then, because I do it
THIS way... you are saying by default I am wrong." Much like mothers who
bottle-fed will often try to dissuade a daughter from breast-feeding. All
that human competition stuff.
meh...I'm likely rambling. I'm brain fried from finals and three projects
due on Sat. I do have a point, I just find I'm not able to articulate it
very well. Sorry.
KRS
typing while thinking about something else. Sorry. I didn't even notice I
had done it until I read your response. I think I had meant to say RU as
short hand. Sorry.
Aurora was discussing her multi-racial heritage and how she was treated by
various people in her life, and taught to hide her mixed blood as a deep
secret. Her family kept other secrets but this is the one she was
discussing. I thought it was salient in that once we decide that there is a
better way, a kinder way, a more loving and trusting way to parent, partner,
and friend...we may often find that those who are not so inclined react with
hostility or contempt. I believe this to be for many reasons not the least
of which is "If you think THAT is the best way to ... then, because I do it
THIS way... you are saying by default I am wrong." Much like mothers who
bottle-fed will often try to dissuade a daughter from breast-feeding. All
that human competition stuff.
meh...I'm likely rambling. I'm brain fried from finals and three projects
due on Sat. I do have a point, I just find I'm not able to articulate it
very well. Sorry.
KRS
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> On Jul 17, 2011, at 8:18 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:
>
> > Once you throw off the mantle of "convention" ...there is
> > no going back.
>
> I'm not comfortable with thinking of conventional ideas as like a
> mantle or blinders, something that traps people.
>
>
> > how it applies or doesn't to RA.
>
> RA?
>
> Do you mean RU?
>
> Either way, using acronyms is offputting to new people. It's like a
> secret language used by "those in the know". Clarity is far more
> important to discussing unschooling than a secret club handshake ;-)
>
> Joyce
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
It may also be along the lines of a parent feeling betrayed by the child who
throws off their ways. The child who chooses to live their life in a way that
seems in opposition to the way the parent would choose, the family would choose,
is a greater charge than simply pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes.
Although Terry Pratchett does a funny little paragraph in Thief of Time on how
the story was also about the boy who went home in serious trouble for getting
his family noticed in a not very good light by the royals. So maybe the
Emperor's lack of clothes works. Just if you imagine the fallout that comes from
pointing out that lie to everyone who backed the lie.
Sometimes there is a righteousness that can come with walking a different path.
A sense that you have more and better information about the true way to live. I
know that I felt that about my parents and their choices as parents when
compared to the ones that I was making. I don't feel that so much anymore.
Although I have moments when I think of how I handle something and how I
remember them handling something and I think "how could they not have seen?" But
I try not to tell them about those thoughts.
Maybe the betrayal isn't in every family. My mom talks about how I and my
step-sister are so much more aware of the decisions we are making as parents.
She is looking at our lives as not being a betrayal, a kind of monument to what
she might have done, but as a different time, different world order sort of
thing. I think there is some truth in that. My father lives so fully in the
moment he isn't necessarily aware of what I'm doing in relationship to what he
did. Although I'm sure he talks a fair bit about it immediately after he and his
wife visit. I would guess that some parents are more invested in their
children's decisions as adults than my parents were/are. Maybe Aurora Chang-Ross
has parents like that.
Schuyler
________________________________
I think Aurora's saying that once the kid points out the Emperor has
no clothes, it's pretty impossible to maintain the fiction ;-)
The more empowered someone feels, the less they need lies and fiction.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
throws off their ways. The child who chooses to live their life in a way that
seems in opposition to the way the parent would choose, the family would choose,
is a greater charge than simply pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes.
Although Terry Pratchett does a funny little paragraph in Thief of Time on how
the story was also about the boy who went home in serious trouble for getting
his family noticed in a not very good light by the royals. So maybe the
Emperor's lack of clothes works. Just if you imagine the fallout that comes from
pointing out that lie to everyone who backed the lie.
Sometimes there is a righteousness that can come with walking a different path.
A sense that you have more and better information about the true way to live. I
know that I felt that about my parents and their choices as parents when
compared to the ones that I was making. I don't feel that so much anymore.
Although I have moments when I think of how I handle something and how I
remember them handling something and I think "how could they not have seen?" But
I try not to tell them about those thoughts.
Maybe the betrayal isn't in every family. My mom talks about how I and my
step-sister are so much more aware of the decisions we are making as parents.
She is looking at our lives as not being a betrayal, a kind of monument to what
she might have done, but as a different time, different world order sort of
thing. I think there is some truth in that. My father lives so fully in the
moment he isn't necessarily aware of what I'm doing in relationship to what he
did. Although I'm sure he talks a fair bit about it immediately after he and his
wife visit. I would guess that some parents are more invested in their
children's decisions as adults than my parents were/are. Maybe Aurora Chang-Ross
has parents like that.
Schuyler
________________________________
I think Aurora's saying that once the kid points out the Emperor has
no clothes, it's pretty impossible to maintain the fiction ;-)
The more empowered someone feels, the less they need lies and fiction.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]