Ren Allen

"One reason I began homeschooling my kids in the first place was
because studies indicated that HSers' test scores were higher than PS
kids'. To some, this is important."

That's NOT the goal of unschooling though.
If you place high value on test scores, academic ability at certain
ages etc...then unschooling really has totally different goals and it
may disappoint.

Unschooling says that test scores are irrelevant unless the learner
WANTS them for some reason (entering college is one example).
Unschooling says that learning is the ultimate, NOT comparing oneself
to other learners, or achieving a certain kind of learning!!

We're the anti-test. We're saying it doesn't matter one bit, nor does
it lead to greater success.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

"I guess I don't see why making him do 45 minutes
of "workbooks" a day is going to interfere too much with his goals
and aspirations."

Is it HELPING him? Nope.
Is it pacifying your fears. Sure.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

"Do some unschoolers choose to do a very small amount of forced learning?"

How could you CHOOSE forced learning?
I'm assuming you're not asking if an UNSCHOOLER would choose forced
learning (which makes zero sense), but rather do parents of unschooler
choose to force some lessons? Not if they're really unschooling!!

Unschooling is about choice.
Unschooling is about freedom to learn what you want, when you want the
information.
Unschooling is about TRUSTING that children learn all the time, from
everything in the world and don't need coercion in order to learn.

Coercion is detrimental to unschooling.
Trust and joy can not unfold as beautifully in a home where there
isn't a very strong bond of trust between parent and child.
How can your child learn to trust themselves if you're sending
messages that they can't be trusted? How can they see the learning in
ALL that they love, if you're sending a message that they need to be
taught?

Some unschoolers choose academic types of learning and schoolish
looking activities at some point, sure. But that IS NOT the goal. If
that's the goal, unschooling is a really bad idea.

I loved chatting with the Carey's up in Peabody (the other family in
the People mag. article) whose daughter is in Harvard now. They talk
about their unschooling experiences and academics/college were
certainly NOT their goal. They didn't care if she chose to bag
groceries or become a lawyer...they really just totally supported
her!! She's thriving on academics, but they'd be just as happy if she
wasn't! That's the key. Letting your child BE who they are, exactly as
they are today. It's getting excited about the things they love,
because it shows you about WHO-THEY-ARE. How cool is that?

If your goals is higher test scores, better academic achievments and
having a college bound child, then get off the ship now. Truly.

If your goal is a child that knows themselves and is comfortable in
their own skin, that trusts their unique abilities, that feels whole
and capable and trusted,that knows they can learn anything and anytime
in life, then keep on plugging away...unschooling is for you.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

"He seems to be rebelling against education. I don't know what to do
> to spark interests in him strong enough for him to pursue."

He already has interests that are strong enough to pursue. You're just
not seeing it. His interests don't need to look like biology or
writing or ANYTHING schoolish. It can look like dragons or video games
or food or places or friends.

TRUST that whatever he loves is enough for right now. Trust that he
needs to have ALL of his interests honored. Tell me what he does if
you don't offer anything. What television shows make him laugh (or
get scared or??), what movies would he go watch if you gave him money
and turned him loose (better yet, to watch with him)? What kind of
activities would he do if there was NO learning involved?

Learning is in everything. He doesn't need to know that just yet, but
you do. He needs you to let him do whatever he loves. ALL of it counts.
Turn today into the first day of vacation...for all of you. Find the
things you ALL love and do them!! Passion and interest are contagious.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>

TRUST that whatever he loves is enough for right now. Trust that he
needs to have ALL of his interests honored. Tell me what he does if
you don't offer anything.

-=-=-=-

But NOT tomorrow!

I mean, don't tell us tomorrow! Give him that room tomorrow.

Tell us in about eight months.

~Kelly


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

squeakybiscuit

Mostly if left to his own he plays xbox live and chats with friend
on instant messenger. He reads on the web about poisons and drugs
and bomb-making because he does mention it to me ("did you know you
could make a poison out of castor beans?", he says stuff like that
to me all the time)

He watches movies on Comedy Central, mostly comedies. He watches
South Park and Family Guy.

I really don't see him learning anything schoolish from it. I admit,
I have a strong need for his learning to be schoolish topics even if
obtained by unschoolish ways.

I don't see how any of this will prepare him for a career or college
someday.

Erin

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> "He seems to be rebelling against education. I don't know what to
do
> > to spark interests in him strong enough for him to pursue."
>
> He already has interests that are strong enough to pursue. You're
just
> not seeing it. His interests don't need to look like biology or
> writing or ANYTHING schoolish. It can look like dragons or video
games
> or food or places or friends.
>
> TRUST that whatever he loves is enough for right now. Trust that he
> needs to have ALL of his interests honored. Tell me what he does if
> you don't offer anything. What television shows make him laugh (or
> get scared or??), what movies would he go watch if you gave him
money
> and turned him loose (better yet, to watch with him)? What kind of
> activities would he do if there was NO learning involved?
>
> Learning is in everything. He doesn't need to know that just yet,
but
> you do. He needs you to let him do whatever he loves. ALL of it
counts.
> Turn today into the first day of vacation...for all of you. Find
the
> things you ALL love and do them!! Passion and interest are
contagious.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: squeakybiscuit <squeakybiscuit@...>

Mostly if left to his own he plays xbox live and chats with friend
on instant messenger. He reads on the web about poisons and drugs
and bomb-making because he does mention it to me ("did you know you
could make a poison out of castor beans?", he says stuff like that
to me all the time)

He watches movies on Comedy Central, mostly comedies. He watches
South Park and Family Guy.

-=-=-=

OHMYGAWD!!!!

He's WRITING! He's READING! He's DOING MATH! He's DISCUSSING! He's
THINKING! He's PHILOSOPHIZING! He's LAUGHING!

-=-=-=-=-

I really don't see him learning anything schoolish from it. I admit,
I have a strong need for his learning to be schoolish topics even if
obtained by unschoolish ways.

-=-=-=-

You have a natural unschooler on your hands. But maybe this won't work
for you.

One doesn't "learn schoolish topics obtained by unschoolish ways." One
LEARNS. Period.

You really need to do some more reading about unschooling.

Have you read any John Holt? Gatto? Kohn? Kream? Have you read
anything on Sandra's or Joyce's sites? Or are you just coming here for
specific answers to your ultra-specific questions? Do *you* want to
learn about unschooling? Or have you simply given up on schooling your
children and feel this is an easier path?

--=-=-=-

I don't see how any of this will prepare him for a career or college
someday.


-=-=-

Have you read ANYTHING we've offered? ANYTHING???


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

squeakybiscuit

> Have you read any John Holt? Gatto? Kohn? Kream? Have you read
> anything on Sandra's or Joyce's sites? Or are you just coming here
for
> specific answers to your ultra-specific questions? Do *you* want
to
> learn about unschooling? Or have you simply given up on schooling
your
> children and feel this is an easier path?
>
> --=-=-=-
>


I checked out some John Holt, and Gatto, but couldn't get through it
becasue I hated their writing style. Never heard of Kohn or Kream. I
have read a good bit on Sandra's site, but just found Joyce's today
when someone linked to it.

I haven't read much of the archives here.

Mostly I was looking into unschooling because it's what HE wants. He
doesn't want to do anything that looks like learning, and it's like
pulling teeth to get him to do anything. He is with a cyber-charter
right now and flat-out refused to do any work for the last 3 months
of school. I still don't know if they are going to bring truancy
charges over it.

I have tried deschooling before, but then I chicken out and start
throwing "schoolish" things at them.

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

Mostly if left to his own he plays xbox live and chats with friend
on instant messenger. He reads on the web about poisons and drugs
and bomb-making because he does mention it to me ("did you know you
could make a poison out of castor beans?", he says stuff like that
to me all the time)
******LOL! My friends tell me that Zack aka Squid, 18) is always coming up with odd little bits of interesting information.

>>He watches movies on Comedy Central, mostly comedies. He watches
South Park and Family Guy.
I really don't see him learning anything schoolish from it.
**********
Have you ever watched South Park or Family Guy?

>>I admit,
I have a strong need for his learning to be schoolish topics even if
obtained by unschoolish ways.
***********
I personally doubt that's going to happen. The KEY part of unschooling is (after trusting that they WILL learn, they can't help it) is learning to see learning in all its other forms rather than academics. There is far more to the world and life than just the 7 (or 5, or 4, or however many) core subjects.


>>>I don't see how any of this will prepare him for a career or college
someday.
****Just to clarify, how old is your son? Is this the 12 year old?
He will be prepared because he will love to find out new things, discover different connections and be willing and very capable of taking on any sort of learning opportunity WHEN HE NEEDS TO. Right now he doesn't NEED to either get a job or go to college.
Stop worrying about the far away. Start living the NOW.

Chill out, keep your fears to yourself rather than sharing them with your kids.
Let it be summer vacation at LEAST until October, and in the meantime:
read this list, read Sandra Dodd's pages, read Joyce's pages, read Ren's blog, subscribe to Life Learning Magazine.
Let your son be, just for a little while, exactly Who He Is, not who he is going to be If it's up to you. Love him, play with him, tell him jokes, rub his back, watch Family guy with him, Save up some of those neat factoids you come across during the day and share them just like he is sharing his learning with you. Look for it, it's right there, smack dab in front of your face.
Open your eyes and truly SEE.


Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: squeakybiscuit <squeakybiscuit@...>

I checked out some John Holt, and Gatto, but couldn't get through it
becasue I hated their writing style. Never heard of Kohn or Kream. I
have read a good bit on Sandra's site, but just found Joyce's today
when someone linked to it.

-=-==-

Alfie Kohn : Punished by Rewards. Easy read. *IF* you want to read it
and learn from it.

Rue Kream: Parenting a Free Child; An Unschooled Life. I mention it
here at least once a day.

-=-=-=-

I haven't read much of the archives here.

-=-==-

That would be a good start. *IF* you want to learn about unschooling.
Every question you have has been asked and answered at least twice.

-=-=-=-

Mostly I was looking into unschooling because it's what HE wants. He
doesn't want to do anything that looks like learning, and it's like
pulling teeth to get him to do anything. He is with a cyber-charter
right now and flat-out refused to do any work for the last 3 months
of school.

-=-=-=-=-

So.

HE wants to unschool.

*You* don't.

HE doesn't want to do anything that looks like learning *to you*.

Makes sense. 'Cause you don't seem to want to learn. Kind of like your
son and the cyber-charter school.

We ALL learn what we want to. We put on the brakes when we don't have
any desire to know what someone else is pushing on us.

How does it feel?

-=-=-=-

I have tried deschooling before, but then I chicken out and start
throwing "schoolish" things at them.

--=-=

Lack of trust. The children don't believe you. They don't trust you.

Now. How do *you* think you go about rebuilding that trust?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith








________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[email protected]

>>He reads on the web about poisons and drugs and bomb-making because he does mention it to me ("did you know you could make a poison out of castor beans?", he says stuff like that to me all the time) >>

He's getting a lot of reaction from you by telling you this stuff. At his age, that might be just what he's after. Does he seem like a particularly angry kid? Are you concerned? My son Conor reads a lot of the same stuff. He's fascinated by it. He's also a pacifist who believes that violence belongs only in videogames.

I mentioned to Conor (17) that your son liked the Anarchist Cookbook. Conor has read it online and then read A LOT about it on many different sites. He said to tell your son that a lot of what is in there isn't true. There are many sites refuting the "facts" in that book. It's good to point out to kids that no one source is the final authority on facts. What Conor got from reading all those sites (among other things) was a reason to keep researching a topic. It was the start on a path to all sorts of different bits of information about government, anarchy, laws, chemicals, physics, and on and on. Plus he has the smarts to keep questioning. I would nurture *that* in your son rather than worrying about school subjects.

Here's a good page to start with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchist_Cookbook

>>He watches movies on Comedy Central, mostly comedies. He watches South Park and Family Guy. I really don't see him learning anything schoolish from it. >>

It's not that he'll necessarily learn something from the shows, but in order to get the jokes he's going to have to be culturally literate. We've had many an interesting discussion take off because of something in shows like that. You've got to understand a lot about the world in order to get satire.

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Elissa Jill Cleaveland" <MystikMomma@...>
> Mostly if left to his own he plays xbox live and chats with friend
> on instant messenger. He reads on the web about poisons and drugs
> and bomb-making because he does mention it to me ("did you know you
> could make a poison out of castor beans?", he says stuff like that
> to me all the time)
> ******LOL! My friends tell me that Zack aka Squid, 18) is always coming up with
> odd little bits of interesting information.
>
> >>He watches movies on Comedy Central, mostly comedies. He watches
> South Park and Family Guy.
> I really don't see him learning anything schoolish from it.
> **********
> Have you ever watched South Park or Family Guy?
>
> >>I admit,
> I have a strong need for his learning to be schoolish topics even if
> obtained by unschoolish ways.
> ***********
> I personally doubt that's going to happen. The KEY part of unschooling is (after
> trusting that they WILL learn, they can't help it) is learning to see learning
> in all its other forms rather than academics. There is far more to the world and
> life than just the 7 (or 5, or 4, or however many) core subjects.
>
>
> >>>I don't see how any of this will prepare him for a career or college
> someday.
> ****Just to clarify, how old is your son? Is this the 12 year old?
> He will be prepared because he will love to find out new things, discover
> different connections and be willing and very capable of taking on any sort of
> learning opportunity WHEN HE NEEDS TO. Right now he doesn't NEED to either get a
> job or go to college.
> Stop worrying about the far away. Start living the NOW.
>
> Chill out, keep your fears to yourself rather than sharing them with your kids.
> Let it be summer vacation at LEAST until October, and in the meantime:
> read this list, read Sandra Dodd's pages, read Joyce's pages, read Ren's blog,
> subscribe to Life Learning Magazine.
> Let your son be, just for a little while, exactly Who He Is, not who he is going
> to be If it's up to you. Love him, play with him, tell him jokes, rub his back,
> watch Family guy with him, Save up some of those neat factoids you come across
> during the day and share them just like he is sharing his learning with you.
> Look for it, it's right there, smack dab in front of your face.
> Open your eyes and truly SEE.
>
>
> Elissa Jill
> A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
> "A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

>>I checked out some John Holt, and Gatto, but couldn't get through it becasue I hated their writing style.>>

So what if we told you that you HAD to read these books because we've decided it's the only way you'll learn about unschooling. And then maybe we'll have you write something about them or give us an oral report? That would suck right? That's what cyber schooling and school at home is feeling like for your son.

>>Mostly I was looking into unschooling because it's what HE wants. >>

Smart kid. :o)

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "squeakybiscuit" <squeakybiscuit@...>
> > Have you read any John Holt? Gatto? Kohn? Kream? Have you read
> > anything on Sandra's or Joyce's sites? Or are you just coming here
> for
> > specific answers to your ultra-specific questions? Do *you* want
> to
> > learn about unschooling? Or have you simply given up on schooling
> your
> > children and feel this is an easier path?
> >
> > --=-=-=-
> >
>
>
> I checked out some John Holt, and Gatto, but couldn't get through it
> becasue I hated their writing style. Never heard of Kohn or Kream. I
> have read a good bit on Sandra's site, but just found Joyce's today
> when someone linked to it.
>
> I haven't read much of the archives here.
>
> Mostly I was looking into unschooling because it's what HE wants. He
> doesn't want to do anything that looks like learning, and it's like
> pulling teeth to get him to do anything. He is with a cyber-charter
> right now and flat-out refused to do any work for the last 3 months
> of school. I still don't know if they are going to bring truancy
> charges over it.
>
> I have tried deschooling before, but then I chicken out and start
> throwing "schoolish" things at them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ren Allen

"He
doesn't want to do anything that looks like learning, and it's like
pulling teeth to get him to do anything."

I really wish you'd quit saying that, after you just listed several
things he's LEARNING! It's so disrespectful to him. He doesn't want to
do anything YOU value as learning...he's learning constantly. You're
just eroding the relationship, by not valuing what he's learning.

Stop pulling teeth and start nourishing him as a whole person. He's
tired of your control and he's telling you loud and CLEAR. We are too,
but are you listening?

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

freepsgal

> I checked out some John Holt, and Gatto, but couldn't get through
> it becasue I hated their writing style.

It's a good thing it's not required reading like you'd be stuck
doing in school. It *is* good reading and many of us think it's
good for you and that you could learn a lot from it. This kind of
thinking is exactly what you and your son are going through right
now. YOU think he needs to do something or learn something and he
is rebelling.

Now don't get me wrong. I too have a difficult time going through
certain books because of the way they are written. I have two great
recommendations for you that I believe are very easy reads. Chances
are you'll need to purchase them because they aren't the kinds of
books you might find at a library. However, think of it as an
investment. If after reading them, you still don't "get"
unschooling, then perhaps unschooling isn't for you.

Parenting a Free Child by Rue Kream
http://www.freechild.info/

Homeschooling Our Children Unschooling Ourselves by Alison McKee
It's available at Amazon.com. They even have an exerpt you can read
for free.

And if you like Alison McKee's work, she has another book that is a
bit harder to find:
From Homeschool to College and Work: Turning your Homeschooled
Experiences into College and Job Portfolios.
I haven't yet read this but I own it. I just haven't yet felt the
need to read it.

Beth M.

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/10/06, squeakybiscuit <squeakybiscuit@...> wrote:
>
> Mostly if left to his own he plays xbox live and chats with friend
> on instant messenger. He reads on the web about poisons and drugs
> and bomb-making because he does mention it to me ("did you know you
> could make a poison out of castor beans?", he says stuff like that
> to me all the time)

Who knows? Maybe one day instead of reading up on how to create
poisons from castor beans he will find a way to create antidotes to
poisons from castor beans.

>
> He watches movies on Comedy Central, mostly comedies. He watches
> South Park and Family Guy.

Does one need drama to be "well rounded?" Is "well roundedness" the
goal? What's wrong with wanting to laugh in life? And you did say
*mostly* comedies which means he is watching other things as well.

>
> I really don't see him learning anything schoolish from it. I admit,
> I have a strong need for his learning to be schoolish topics even if
> obtained by unschoolish ways.

Why does it have to be schoolish? This is all about *your* need, not
*his* need. And the sentence is an oxymoron if you think about it.
If he is unschooling nothing he does is going to look "schoolish" He
may learn some facts and figures that would be taught in school, but
they aren't going to look schoolish at all. And how do you know he is
learning nothing that is "schoolish" by watching comedies and South
Park. I think South Park has some pretty interesting concepts that
can open up some great discussions. Do you watch these shows with
him?

>
> I don't see how any of this will prepare him for a career or college
> someday.
>

Is college *his* goal or your goal for him? And as young as he is he
has no idea what his career will be or if he will want or need to go
to college to get there.


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

D Smith

"He watches South Park and Family Guy."

There is nothing wrong with his choice in tv. As a
family we watch South Park. My four year old, thinks
Cartman is funny. I love Cartman. My cousin was
appalled that my ds watches The Simpson's. Then I
explained to her that in Christain Colleges they study
the Simpson's so what's the big deal? I also handed
her The Gospel acording to the Simpson's. Good book.
I've learned so much here and the best thing has been
to let my child lead the way. And sometimes that means
letting him do things our society says is wrong. I'm
amazed at what my son grasps.

Danie



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

squeakybiscuit

I didn't think anything was wrong with his choice in TV. I enjoy
South Park and Family Guy too. I usually watch with him.

I just didn't think you could learn about much from it, as opposed
to say, a history channel documentary. Family Guy did have an
episode about reparations that sparked an interesting conversation
though. And South Park does talk about current events alot.


I don't know, I'm just used to learning being a certain thing.

Erin
--- In [email protected], D Smith <sandshuse@...>
wrote:
>
> "He watches South Park and Family Guy."
>
> There is nothing wrong with his choice in tv. As a
> family we watch South Park. My four year old, thinks
> Cartman is funny. I love Cartman. My cousin was
> appalled that my ds watches The Simpson's. Then I
> explained to her that in Christain Colleges they study
> the Simpson's so what's the big deal? I also handed
> her The Gospel acording to the Simpson's. Good book.
> I've learned so much here and the best thing has been
> to let my child lead the way. And sometimes that means
> letting him do things our society says is wrong. I'm
> amazed at what my son grasps.
>
> Danie
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

marji

--- In [email protected], "squeakybiscuit"
<squeakybiscuit@...> wrote:

> I don't know, I'm just used to learning being a certain thing.


It's everything. And everywhere. And all the time. It's unavoidable.

If you want to prove it to yourself~I'm not kidding or being
facetious~declare it to be a "No Learning Day." Spend that day
deliberately trying to avoid learning. I'm pretty sure it can't be
done, but maybe you can prove me wrong! Then, I'll have learned
something new! ;-)

~marji

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 11, 2006, at 3:37 PM, squeakybiscuit wrote:

> I don't know, I'm just used to learning being a certain thing.

It will help if you accept that nearly everyone has been where you
are. 99.9 % of us went through public school and bought into the line
that you need to stay in school or be a failure.

To get unschooling, you need to let go of that notion. It's *hard*!
No one's saying it isn't. That notion that learning needs to look
like school has roots entwined around so many ideas we're certain are
true. It takes work to untangle them. It takes years to get rid of
lots of them.

The thing is that your son doesn't have years to wait until you fully
understand and grasp and trust unschooling. You need to start doing
unschooling now. You need to start trusting him now. Figure it out as
you're doing it. You don't get special dispensation because you're
"used to learning being a certain thing"! We've all been there, stuck
with that exact idea. We've all had to work around and past the
discomfort because our kids -- who are with us for such a short time
-- are more important than our own comfort.

You just have to do it.

Someone described it as jumping off a cliff and then realizing they
could fly just like everyone said they could. It's not the flying
that's hard. It's the jumping off that's hard!

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: squeakybiscuit <squeakybiscuit@...>

I didn't think anything was wrong with his choice in TV. I enjoy
South Park and Family Guy too. I usually watch with him.

-=-=-=-

And yet you mentioned it negatively.

-=-=-=-

I just didn't think you could learn about much from it, as opposed
to say, a history channel documentary.

-=-=-=-

Depends on what you're looking to learn! <g> I bet there's very little
Chinese history on Family Guy. The discovery Channel had a bunch of
stuff on China a month or so ago.

What South Parka and Family Guy and the Simpsons and Ed, Edd, and Eddy
*do* have is oneafteranother clever lines---and if you're not fully
there (or don't have TiVo <g>), you might miss it. They "cover" history
and social studies and music and art and culture and.....---all wrapped
up in humor.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Family Guy did have an
episode about reparations that sparked an interesting conversation
though. And South Park does talk about current events alot.

-=-=-=

You're getting there! <g>

They make you think. Every time. The can also make you groan---out
loud! <g> But the thinking part is great. They help you make
connections. And that's what learning is about---connecting one thing
to another and building your own little universe of connections.

-=-=-=-=-

I don't know, I'm just used to learning being a certain thing.

-=-=-=-

It *never* was a certain thing. Learning is learning.

In school, it's supposed to look like curricula and workbooks and
tests and fill-in-the-blanks and essays. In school, it looks like math
OR science OR history OR art OR social studies OR grammar OR spelling
OR music. In school. But that's not what the kids are *really*
learning. Many of them are learning that it's stupid/boring/hard to
learn.

But in the real world, it looks a lot different. It looks like
butterflies and South Park and drums and lasagne and shoes and cats and
nesting dolls and cookbooks and cranium and jelly beans and horses and
swimming and hummingbirds and M*A*S*H and country music and Yu-Gi-Oh!
and bicycles and okra <g> and balls and long chats over tea and peonies
and guitars and clocks and IMs and trucks and bunnies and Zoombini's
and escalators and ATCs and sushi and Manga and, and, and..... (just a
little of our weekend <g>)

Learning happens all the time. It's all how *you* choose to see it.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith



________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/11/06, squeakybiscuit <squeakybiscuit@...> wrote:
>> I didn't think anything was wrong with his choice in TV. I enjoy
> South Park and Family Guy too. I usually watch with him.
>
> I just didn't think you could learn about much from it, as opposed
> to say, a history channel documentary.

He's only going to *learn* something from a History Channel
documentary if he has an interest in the documentary's subject and it
is presented in a format that is appealing to him. I can't stand most
of the History Channel documentaries because they break for
commercials way too often, they essentially repeat the last 5 minutes
of the show after each commercial break and whoever does their
narration is so boring to listen to! It's not that I don't have an
interest in the subject, but in the format. And I've watched a
gazillion documentaries on military aircraft and war machines as I've
been in the living room when Dan and Keon are watching them and even
though it might have been "instructional" I still can't tell a Sherman
from any other kind of tank. I haven't learned anything from them
even though I've been in the same room while they were being shown
(and the reason I didn't get up is because I was happily knitting and
comfy and I enjoy watching my "boys" get excited about big "toys.")


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

[email protected]

>>I don't know, I'm just used to learning being a certain thing.>>

It sounds like you're used to learning being something that's passive. Someone has some facts or information and they share it with you in whatever way, through a class, a documenary, a book, a kit, etc. That's what schools do.

What we're talking about is a much more active learning experience. And in my opinion it's the more authentic learning experience. We're talking about being aware of the world around you and connecting the dots from one piece of information to the next. That's how you create a web of knowledge and understanding that is at the core of a truly educated individual.

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "squeakybiscuit" <squeakybiscuit@...>
> I didn't think anything was wrong with his choice in TV. I enjoy
> South Park and Family Guy too. I usually watch with him.
>
> I just didn't think you could learn about much from it, as opposed
> to say, a history channel documentary. Family Guy did have an
> episode about reparations that sparked an interesting conversation
> though. And South Park does talk about current events alot.
>
>
> I don't know, I'm just used to learning being a certain thing.
>
> Erin
> --- In [email protected], D Smith <sandshuse@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > "He watches South Park and Family Guy."
> >
> > There is nothing wrong with his choice in tv. As a
> > family we watch South Park. My four year old, thinks
> > Cartman is funny. I love Cartman. My cousin was
> > appalled that my ds watches The Simpson's. Then I
> > explained to her that in Christain Colleges they study
> > the Simpson's so what's the big deal? I also handed
> > her The Gospel acording to the Simpson's. Good book.
> > I've learned so much here and the best thing has been
> > to let my child lead the way. And sometimes that means
> > letting him do things our society says is wrong. I'm
> > amazed at what my son grasps.
> >
> > Danie
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 11, 2006, at 1:25 PM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> I just didn't think you could learn about much from it, as opposed
> to say, a history channel documentary.

The most wonderful unschooling families I know are the ones using the
"Get-the-Joke Curriculum."

(That's a joke, get it?)

-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----

It's everything. And everywhere. And all the time. It's unavoidable.

If you want to prove it to yourself~I'm not kidding or being
facetious~declare it to be a "No Learning Day." Spend that day
deliberately trying to avoid learning. I'm pretty sure it can't be
done, but maybe you can prove me wrong! Then, I'll have learned
something new! ;-)

-=-=---=-

I tried it.

Not on purpose, but because I was doing the same thing I did every
Wednesday.

I was grooming these poodles. I worked for a very wealthy family who
had four standard poodles, a mini, two toys and a shih tzu. I went to
their house every week and groomed them in the "doggy salon"---and it
was just the same ol' same ol'. I literally said to myself, "I bet I
won't learn anything new today."

Things went as they normally do: I was listening to the radio and
never-endingly bathing/clipping/scissoring poodles.

NPR had a bit about a conductor who was retiring. We was well-known,
well-respected, and well-liked. At his last concert, the orchestra
remained seated when he exited the stage. Fred Child told us that was
the highest honor and orchestra could pay a conductor.

I thought that was sooo cool. How wonderful that feeling must've
been---'cause Fred said that doesn't happen much at all (unlike
standingg ovations and encores which happen as a matter of course every
day now!). I didn't know that! <g> And on a day I didn't expect to
learn anything new! <bwg>

~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

sunsaltnsand

Wow, that was just harsh. And I've noticed it's not just this post, it's
lots of them, I just chose to respond to this one.

The sarcasm, the nastiness, this list is for unschooling *basics*, no? Some
of us came here simply to learn about the concept and, while I really am
beginning to embrace it, the hostile and holier than thou attitudes here
truly turn me off. On the one hand, you're preaching about how natural it
is, how nothing should be forced, no one should be made to read anything or
learn anything, and on the other, we're provided with reading lists and
asked sarcastic questions such as, "Have you read ANYTHING we've offered?
ANYTHING?"

You're preaching, but you're not practicing. Like you've all pointed out
multiple times, you can't teach someone until they're ready to learn.

*shari*

*****************************************************************

Mostly if left to his own he plays xbox live and chats with friend on
instant messenger. He reads on the web about poisons and drugs and
bomb-making because he does mention it to me ("did you know you could make
a poison out of castor beans?", he says stuff like that to me all the time)

He watches movies on Comedy Central, mostly comedies. He watches South
Park and Family Guy.

-=-=-=

OHMYGAWD!!!!

He's WRITING! He's READING! He's DOING MATH! He's DISCUSSING! He's
THINKING! He's PHILOSOPHIZING! He's LAUGHING!

-=-=-=-=-

I really don't see him learning anything schoolish from it. I admit, I
have a strong need for his learning to be schoolish topics even if obtained
by unschoolish ways.

-=-=-=-

You have a natural unschooler on your hands. But maybe this won't work for
you.

One doesn't "learn schoolish topics obtained by unschoolish ways." One
LEARNS. Period.

You really need to do some more reading about unschooling.

Have you read any John Holt? Gatto? Kohn? Kream? Have you read anything on
Sandra's or Joyce's sites? Or are you just coming here for specific answers
to your ultra-specific questions? Do *you* want to learn about unschooling?
Or have you simply given up on schooling your children and feel this is an
easier path?

--=-=-=-

I don't see how any of this will prepare him for a career or college
someday.


-=-=-

Have you read ANYTHING we've offered? ANYTHING???


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

Pamela Sorooshian

You know how they say, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?"

There needs to be an equivalent expression for email lists - "The
perceived tone of email is in the mind of the reader."

-pam


On Jun 12, 2006, at 7:53 PM, sunsaltnsand wrote:

> Wow, that was just harsh. And I've noticed it's not just this
> post, it's
> lots of them, I just chose to respond to this one.
>
> The sarcasm, the nastiness, this list is for unschooling *basics*,
> no? Some
> of us came here simply to learn about the concept and, while I
> really am
> beginning to embrace it, the hostile and holier than thou attitudes
> here
> truly turn me off. On the one hand, you're preaching about how
> natural it
> is, how nothing should be forced, no one should be made to read
> anything or
> learn anything, and on the other, we're provided with reading lists
> and
> asked sarcastic questions such as, "Have you read ANYTHING we've
> offered?
> ANYTHING?"
>
> You're preaching, but you're not practicing. Like you've all
> pointed out
> multiple times, you can't teach someone until they're ready to learn.
>
> *shari*
>
> *****************************************************************
>
> Mostly if left to his own he plays xbox live and chats with
> friend on
> instant messenger. He reads on the web about poisons and drugs and
> bomb-making because he does mention it to me ("did you know you
> could make
> a poison out of castor beans?", he says stuff like that to me all
> the time)
>
> He watches movies on Comedy Central, mostly comedies. He watches
> South
> Park and Family Guy.
>
> -=-=-=
>
> OHMYGAWD!!!!
>
> He's WRITING! He's READING! He's DOING MATH! He's DISCUSSING! He's
> THINKING! He's PHILOSOPHIZING! He's LAUGHING!
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I really don't see him learning anything schoolish from it. I
> admit, I
> have a strong need for his learning to be schoolish topics even if
> obtained
> by unschoolish ways.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> You have a natural unschooler on your hands. But maybe this won't
> work for
> you.
>
> One doesn't "learn schoolish topics obtained by unschoolish
> ways." One
> LEARNS. Period.
>
> You really need to do some more reading about unschooling.
>
> Have you read any John Holt? Gatto? Kohn? Kream? Have you read
> anything on
> Sandra's or Joyce's sites? Or are you just coming here for specific
> answers
> to your ultra-specific questions? Do *you* want to learn about
> unschooling?
> Or have you simply given up on schooling your children and feel
> this is an
> easier path?
>
> --=-=-=-
>
> I don't see how any of this will prepare him for a career or college
> someday.
>
>
> -=-=-
>
> Have you read ANYTHING we've offered? ANYTHING???
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://liveandlearnconference.org
>
> "The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but
> forgetting. No
> matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
> learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
> ~Frank Smith
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
> ~-->
> Protect your PC from spy ware with award winning anti spy
> technology. It's free.
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

freepsgal

> Wow, that was just harsh. And I've noticed it's not just this
> post, it's lots of them, I just chose to respond to this one.
> *shari*

Hi Shari,

I'm fairly new to this list as well and I don't see these posts as
harsh at all. I've looked into and tried out unschooling a couple
of times in the past 4+ years of homeschooling but it's only been in
the last 5 months that I really, really get it. People really new
to this concept really want unschooling to be easy or to just fit in
certain areas of their lives such as academic work. But I have
learned that it's really about lifestyle changes and viewing my
children in a totally different light.

I know you said you saw harsh posts in other subjects, but this
particular thread is being continued by one person who doesn't seem
to spend much time answering the responses she's getting. Instead,
she's asking lots of questions that seem to be running along the
same vein. I know I've responded to her and never got any
acknowledgement at all. I have no idea if she read my note and what
her thoughts may be. You're right, we did give her reading
suggestions when what she might want to do is talk this all
through. But she's not really carrying on a conversation. It's
more like brief questions and minimal answers, no thought-provoking
discussion at all. I truly get the impression, and I can certainly
be wrong, that she has NO desire to unschool but is looking into it
so she can tell her son that she read about it and disagrees with
it. It's like she's condemning it before truly understanding it.

I am learning that the best thing to do is really talk out your
concerns. If someone yells with all caps, it's not because they are
trying to be harsh but they are trying to add inflection into their
post that is absent in this medium of communications. Also,
discussing something like unschooling just isn't going to happen in
one or two exchanges of emails. We're talking a whole lifestyle
here that encompasses so very much. But anyway, if you feel
something is particularly harsh and you don't understand the meaning
of the post, respond and ask, just like you did on this thread. But
understand discussion should truly be between at least 2 people, a
give and take. Not just asking the same questions over and over and
expecting different responses. :)

Beth M.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: sunsaltnsand <sunsaltnsand@...>

Wow, that was just harsh. And I've noticed it's not just this post,
it's
lots of them, I just chose to respond to this one.

The sarcasm, the nastiness, this list is for unschooling *basics*, no?
Some
of us came here simply to learn about the concept and, while I really
am
beginning to embrace it, the hostile and holier than thou attitudes
here
truly turn me off. On the one hand, you're preaching about how natural
it
is, how nothing should be forced, no one should be made to read
anything or
learn anything, and on the other, we're provided with reading lists and
asked sarcastic questions such as, "Have you read ANYTHING we've
offered?
ANYTHING?"

You're preaching, but you're not practicing. Like you've all pointed
out
multiple times, you can't teach someone until they're ready to learn.

-=-=-=-

Well, *you* got the point. Maybe Erin did too.

You CAN'T teach someone who isn't ready to learn. BINGO!

Until she is ready to open her eyes and *see* that, she can't
unschool. All the preaching and proselytizing I'm doing amounts to
SQUAT if she's not ready to learn.

I cannot *make* anyone read anything, but if someone's coming to this
list to learn, I have to assume she's ready and willing. I assume she's
going to do the work to get there. I assume she's going to take the
suggestions and make changes and move forward.



But rather than attack my post, do *you* have some advice for Erin on
how to unschool?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/12/06, sunsaltnsand <sunsaltnsand@...> wrote:
>
> Wow, that was just harsh. And I've noticed it's not just this post, it's
> lots of them, I just chose to respond to this one.
>
> The sarcasm, the nastiness, this list is for unschooling *basics*, no?

Hmmm. I'm not seeing the same tone. Maybe these posts are hitting
your own raw nerve? What I am seeing is a mom who is putting up
roadblocks to all the information she is receiving. "Yes; BUT I can't
because....." We aren't trying to create these roadblocks, but to
show her how she can take these roadblocks down. Sending her links to
books and online articles is an easy way to utilize information that
is already out there - good, well-written information. Why reinvent
the wheel?


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

sunsaltnsand

That's my point exactly, though -- for instance, I was told it's all in
perception. *Your* perception is that I attacked your post. Exactly like
*my* perception was that you attacked someone else.

I did offer advice, you just had to read through the lines. My advice would
be, "try to read through the unnecessary harshness & sarcasm of the answers
that you receive and you might actually be able to find the answers you're
seeking". I was also trying to say, "You're not alone in this, others have
questions as well but are really confused and becoming put off by the
answers of the experts on the board." And finally, I wanted to get across,
"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

I came to this list because, in the list description's words, it is "a list
designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling". Perhaps those
who are old hat at the concept could try to think back to when they were new
to it themselves, all the doubts, fears, etc. that they felt, and remember
that it took you awhile to get to the point you are today. Or maybe not --
but please remember that for some of us, it's not second nature just yet.

And for the record, for the one who said that using ALL CAPS isn't shouting,
this is the first place I've ever seen online where it's not considered
shouting. Perhaps you could try using brackets, asterisks, etc., especially
since it's a list for newbies. Intended or not, my perception is that the
posts with ALL CAPS really *do* come across as sarcasm/shouting.

*shari*

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Is it enough?

Well, *you* got the point. Maybe Erin did too.

You CAN'T teach someone who isn't ready to learn. BINGO!

Until she is ready to open her eyes and *see* that, she can't unschool.
All the preaching and proselytizing I'm doing amounts to SQUAT if she's not
ready to learn.

I cannot *make* anyone read anything, but if someone's coming to this list
to learn, I have to assume she's ready and willing. I assume she's going to
do the work to get there. I assume she's going to take the suggestions and
make changes and move forward.

But rather than attack my post, do *you* have some advice for Erin on how to
unschool?