Beth Mouser

I am a newbie here but I have been homeschooling for 5 years. I
have thought about unschooling alot but my husband is against it.
He gets upset when my now 12-YO son makes a ton of misspellings
whenever he writes. I haven't pushed spelling much with my children
and I try to unschool as much as possible. However, I do make them
do Horizons math, EZ Grammar, and Wordly Wise for vocabulary. But
that is about it. Sometimes when I think of it, I tell them to do a
Rosetta Stone spanish lesson. My 12 YO has a spelling workbook, but
I like him to do it later in the afternoon and he is only about 1/3
of the way through it. My husband thinks I need to be more
scheduled about the spelling.

How do kids learn to spell if they aren't learning spelling words or
using a curriculum? I imagine you are all going to tell me by
reading and writing. My son has always been an avid reader, but his
spelling is still really bad and he hardly ever writes. He has
Asperger's and he enjoys writing lists. He makes lists of anything
he is interested in...right now it is baseball teams and players.
Spelling is a big deal to my husband because he writes for a local
column everyday and he used to be a sports reporter on the local
news.

My boys hate doing the workbooks, even though they are minimal and
should take an hour. But I struggle with stopping math and grammar.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Beth
mom to 12 YO and 10 YO

marji

At 14:27 6/7/2006, you wrote:

>He gets upset when my now 12-YO son makes a ton of misspellings
>whenever he writes.

It might help your husband to understand that some people are
spellers and some are not, and it doesn't matter whether they've
unschooled all their lives or went through a full plate of primary,
secondary, and post-graduate education. I am a medical
transcriptionist, and I can tell you for certain: Doctors cannot
spell. Doctors go through a ton of schooling, more than most folks,
I guess, and they're generally pretty smart people, but every
transcriptionist knows that doctors generally can't spell, and if
they start spelling a word for you, DON'T TRUST IT! (It is pretty
entertaining, though!) :-)

My brother had a full school career, including four years of college,
and he emerged from that experience with very lousy spelling
skills. So, he uses a dictionary and a spell checker. He's a very
successful entrepreneur, my brother is, and his inability to spell
has not hurt him or interfered with him at all. I'm a great speller
and I'm poorer than dirt! ;-)

Perhaps your husband needs to understand unschooling a little
better? Shaming your son about spelling is not likely to help him
master it (or even want to)!! In fact, it could have the opposite
effect, but more likely it could damage the relationship your son and
husband have, and is spelling really worth that?

Spelling can be helpful in effective communication. To that end, if
your son (like my brother) wants to know that he is being understood,
it will behoove him to spell words correctly. If he understands that
importance, he will want to spell words correctly, and he'll pull
that together. But, it may not be so important to him. He may not
need to be a good speller right now. If you can help your husband to
let that go, I bet everyone will be happier, including your husband!




_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._

Marji
<http://www.gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf
<http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GaiaWolf/>Join the GaiaWolf Mailing List


"The animals of this world exist for their own reasons. They were
not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or
women created for men."
~Alice Walker
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Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/7/06, Beth Mouser <mouser4@...> wrote:
>
>
> How do kids learn to spell if they aren't learning spelling words or
> using a curriculum? I imagine you are all going to tell me by
> reading and writing. My son has always been an avid reader, but his
> spelling is still really bad and he hardly ever writes. He has
> Asperger's and he enjoys writing lists. He makes lists of anything
> he is interested in...right now it is baseball teams and players.
> Spelling is a big deal to my husband because he writes for a local
> column everyday and he used to be a sports reporter on the local
> news


Yes; I am going to say that they learn to spell from reading and writing.
We are surrounded by words. There are words everywhere! Words are
glorious. One of the problems with English is that we are a "hob gob"
language with roots from Gaelic, German, Latin, French, Spanish, and Greek
(to name a few). While we have some basic rules about spelling, we have no
hard and fast rules. Look at i before e except after c or in words like
society, beige, and heifer! I have two tools that I use often in writing.
A dictionary and spell check! Dan, my co-parent, is a brilliant computer
programmer and network engineer. Has one of those minds that soaks up
everything he reads or hears. Stores stuff for years and is able to recall
them long after he has stored it. Can't spell worth carp ;-) As an
unschooler I would tell you to not get hung up about it.

I think the real problem is your dh's attitude towards you and your children
rather than your son's lack of spelling comprehension. For some people
spelling just isn't the end all be all. Ask yourself why your dh doesn't
trust you with your children's upbringing and education. Better yet, ask
your dh why he doesn't trust you with your children's upbringing and
education. Has he even read anything about unschooling? Has he been to
http://www.sandradodd.com and read the articles that many unschooling
families have shared? How it really can work for *all* kids?

My boys hate doing the workbooks, even though they are minimal and
> should take an hour. But I struggle with stopping math and grammar.


Ask yourself if you got anything from all the classes you took in school
that you hated doing. Your boys are going to learn math and grammar as they
need math and grammar. I'm not sure if LeeAnn is on this list or not, but
I'll share this story anyway. LeeAnn's son was 13 when he asked his mom
what this symbol (hmmm, can't find it on my keyboard - the division sign
little - with two dots.) OMG a 13yo doesn't know what a division sign is?
LeeAnn told him it was a division sign and showed him how it effected
numbers. Within a short time (I think it was like 30 minutes) her son was
able to do quite complicated division - maybe even "grade level" (gasp!)
It was because he was ready and had an interest.

BTW, I have a very dear friend who is a journalist and columnist for my
newspaper. She admitted that she couldn't spell worth squat.





--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist


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Deb

How about show DH Time magazine, the New York Times, his own
newspaper, just about any large novel (and almost all the labels
under the paintings in the Cowboy Hall of Fame in OKC) ...there are
invariably at least half a dozen misspellings and/or misuses of
words (DH found one last night in a book he's reading, they used an
m in "scenario" instead of an n.) If all these publications produced
by professionals and ostensibly proofread at least once or twice can
still have spelling errors, he needs to cut a 12 yr old some slack.

Now, as to what to do *for* (not *to*) your kids - remove the
physical issues from the writing/spelling. That is, let them go at
it with email, word processing, IMing, online games (even a safe
place like NeoPets allows people to send messages to each other),
etc and uncouple the writing from the physical act of setting pen to
paper (after all, I doubt your hubby writes his final drafts by
hand). Most email programs as well as word processors allow you to
configure it to automatically underline or highlight in some fashion
anything it sees as misspelled. Ditto for grammatical questions.

And, too, while it may be important to your hubby in his work, it is
NOT the be all end all of life as we know it to be able to spell
correctly in order to "Be Successful" (in the current cultural
understanding of that word). I work with folks, with college
degrees, who are in management making upwards of $75K per year who
can't spell for beans. I happen to be a word person (that's why I
notice typos in all sorts of things) but I know that not everyone
is. I come by it genetically (lol) - my dad has an NYU journalism
degree. My sister, however, same parents, same public schools right
through, college degree and everything, is a hesitant speller at
best - she has to stop and think about things if it's not something
she uses all the time. However, she is a marvelous artist while I
can't even really draw a straight line without help. When/if it
becomes important for your son to communicate in writing of some
form with others and he needs to spell better in order to
communicate clearly, then and only then will he work on improving
his spelling.

--Deb

April Morris

My kids learned and are learning how to spell in all kinds of ways. Instant
messaging, email, Myspace....the older 3 have gotten to the point where they
care if things are spelled correctly. They each have their own methods for
checking. They can always ask me (which may or may not help), they love
m-w.com, and they'll type into word for automatic corrections. On-line
games are another area. These are all things that they do as part of life
and those are the ways they learn. Some of their 4-H projects for Fair
require writing and there's another way they get experience. Artificial
writing does nothing. I can tell you from personal experience that years of
spelling words and spelling tests did nothing for my spelling skills. I read
all the time as a kid and that didn't help either. Spelling is just not
something that comes naturally to me. I've managed to survive quite nicely.
And I'm quite proficient with spell-check! :)
--
~April
Mom to Kate-19, Lisa-17, Karl-15, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art www.artkunst23.com
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf the Grey


On 6/7/06, Beth Mouser <mouser4@...> wrote:
>
> I am a newbie here but I have been homeschooling for 5 years. I
> have thought about unschooling alot but my husband is against it.
> He gets upset when my now 12-YO son makes a ton of misspellings
> whenever he writes. I haven't pushed spelling much with my children
> and I try to unschool as much as possible. However, I do make them
> do Horizons math, EZ Grammar, and Wordly Wise for vocabulary. But
> that is about it. Sometimes when I think of it, I tell them to do a
> Rosetta Stone spanish lesson. My 12 YO has a spelling workbook, but
> I like him to do it later in the afternoon and he is only about 1/3
> of the way through it. My husband thinks I need to be more
> scheduled about the spelling.
>
> How do kids learn to spell if they aren't learning spelling words or
> using a curriculum? I imagine you are all going to tell me by
> reading and writing. My son has always been an avid reader, but his
> spelling is still really bad and he hardly ever writes. He has
> Asperger's and he enjoys writing lists. He makes lists of anything
> he is interested in...right now it is baseball teams and players.
> Spelling is a big deal to my husband because he writes for a local
> column everyday and he used to be a sports reporter on the local
> news.
>
> My boys hate doing the workbooks, even though they are minimal and
> should take an hour. But I struggle with stopping math and grammar.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> Beth
> mom to 12 YO and 10 YO
>
>
>


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sunsaltnsand

You pretty much said what I was scared to say, since I'm so new to the group
:-). My DH is currently pursuing his graduate degree, is extremely
well-liked and respected in his field (he's in the military) and he can't
even spell all the words right on a grocery list. We laugh about it all the
time, sure, but I certainly don't think it holds him back in the least,
other than having to hit "spell-check" more than the average person.

Just my $.02 - take it or leave it, that's all it's worth :-).

*shari*


QUOTE:
I think the real problem is your dh's attitude towards you and your children
rather than your son's lack of spelling comprehension. For some people
spelling just isn't the end all be all. Ask yourself why your dh doesn't
trust you with your children's upbringing and education. Better yet, ask
your dh why he doesn't trust you with your children's upbringing and
education. Has he even read anything about unschooling? Has he been to
http://www.sandradodd.com and read the articles that many unschooling
families have shared? How it really can work for *all* kids?

[email protected]

Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Spelling Woes

Great to hear from you April! I love all the unschooling stories and as my son is 15 it helps a lot to hear from a Mom of teens successfully living life without the school system.

Sherlyn
Jacob's Mom!

Melissa

My son has aspergers. He will pick up up, it's okay. I imagine that
at this point he winces every time your dh looks his written word,
because he knows that criticism will come. Is that maybe why he
doesn't like to write? That's not a healthy way to live! If they hate
doing workbooks, then why do they need to do them? What will they
learn? Are they actually learning what's in there, or is the bigger
lesson that mom can force them to do such and so? Or that dad's
approval is based on what they produce, rather than on the innately
good things about them? What's wrong with only writing lists? Does
your son have a career already planned on writing? Perhaps he won't
ever need to write more than lists!! That's what billionaire
presidents and CEO's of companies do, write lists so that others can
make some sense out of it! I will say that my son hates writing.
Primarily because his disability makes the coordination necessary
very difficult, secondly the brain isn't wired for the kind of fluent
communication required in writing essays.

As your dh is a writer, I'm surprised he never uses spellcheck. Mine
does ;-) Spelling isnt' learn by writing words over and over. Some of
it can be learned by learning the rules. But over the long run, it's
all about reading. He's only 12...his job or livelihood does not
depend on his spelling, so give him time!!! I'm 32, and I've never
practiced spelling. What I do know that as I'm typing, words look
wrong. That comes from reading (and having Josh kick my butt at
scrabble). Then I utilize tools to help me figure out how to do it
right. Computer spellcheck, dictionary, webster.com. I would say that
is more important, teaching him the tools that he has available, and
then letting him know that it's not that big of a deal. Then let him
practice. I like how someone said that once spelling became important
to their teenager, then they figured it out.

I hope you take this the right way. No one is criticizing, just
offering opinions and suggestions.

Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jun 7, 2006, at 1:27 PM, Beth Mouser wrote:
> How do kids learn to spell if they aren't learning spelling words or
> using a curriculum? I imagine you are all going to tell me by
> reading and writing. My son has always been an avid reader, but his
> spelling is still really bad and he hardly ever writes. He has
> Asperger's and he enjoys writing lists. He makes lists of anything
> he is interested in...right now it is baseball teams and players.
> Spelling is a big deal to my husband because he writes for a local
> column everyday and he used to be a sports reporter on the local
> news.
>
> My boys hate doing the workbooks, even though they are minimal and
> should take an hour. But I struggle with stopping math and grammar.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> Beth
> mom to 12 YO and 10 YO
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<How do kids learn to spell if they never learn spelling words or use a curriculum?>>

My now 15 yo was never much good at spelling until she hit around 12 and started emailing friends. She became self-conscious and wanted to improve. I showed her spell check to point out words she was mis-spelling and over time, the correct way to spell those words started to stick. She just finished a writing class with kids who have done curriculum all their lives. She handled it just fine.

Julie S.

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Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 7, 2006, at 11:27 AM, Beth Mouser wrote:

> How do kids learn to spell if they aren't learning spelling words or
> using a curriculum? I imagine you are all going to tell me by
> reading and writing. My son has always been an avid reader, but his
> spelling is still really bad and he hardly ever writes.

I just sent this post to my state group (apologies to those who are
on both). I think it might be useful for those people who have kids
who are reading later than they might feel comfortable with - but, if
you read down farther, there is also a part about my 15 yo daughter
and her spelling journey.


I have three daughters - the first read at four and a half years old
and LOVED to read, play word games, started writing her own stories
at five, etc. She still writes and even runs writing workshops and
poetry marathons at camps and where she works, etc.

The second learned to read all on her own at three years old - spent
a few weeks driving her older sister crazy by constantly asking her,
'What's this word? What's this word?" and then she had it figured
out. "I" didn't even know she could read - I wasn't expecting it,
wasn't looking for it, and it apparently happened so fast that I
missed it. My neighbor is the one who told me - she brought Roxana
back from playing at her house and said, "I can't believe she reads
like that." I said, "Hmmm, like what?" She said, "Well, she was
reading to the other kids." I had NO idea. So later I gave her some
books, ones we'd never read together, and she read them. She's still
very very into words - at 18 she loves literature, linguistics,
etymology, theater, and anything else that has to do with words and
writing and will probably major in literature, in college. It is her
passion.

My third child didn't learn to read until she was well into being
eight years old. She has a very very different learning style than
the other two and her focus was on other things. She's very physical
- loves sports (has been on a swim team, played soccer since she was
four, rides horses, and now is very into karate - and she's always
loved puzzles and games - especially strategy games and playing cards
(including figuring odds) and role-playing games. As the years went
by, she loved to listen to books and, as she got older, she got a
little frustrated that she couldn't read. I reminded her that
everybody is different and that she was learning all kinds of other
things and that reading would come, not to worry. I gave her some
help - we played a lot of word games, especially while driving in the
car, but, to be honest, she really wasn't "getting" the idea of
phonics and too much trying to play games based on phonics just got
her extremely frustrated and we'd back off immediately. Slowly,
however, she built up a set of memorized words that she could easily
recognize. And she started trying to read words by guessing based on
the first letter and, a bit later, based on first and last letters.
We joined a theater group and she played the little Indian boy in "A
Midsummer Night's Dream." She carried the script with her all
throughout the early rehearsals, just like everyone else, but "I"
knew she couldn't really read it. Night after night, she "pretended"
to be following the script. Then, one day, I walked in the front door
of our house and there she was, upside down, head on the floor, legs
up over the back of the couch <G>, reading out loud from the
Midsummer script, with GREAT expression, and reading ALL the parts,
not just her own. I thought - "WOW - she's got quite a memory!!" But
I had been fooled again - she was really reading (with a lot of help
from her memory of the show, of course). Somehow those weeks of
"pretending" to follow along in the script had allowed her to break
the code - she "got" the idea and she could suddenly read. That
ability transferred over to all reading material. That was it - she
read everything she could get her hands on. There were LOTS of words
she couldn't read, at first, because she didn't recognize them and
still wasn't "sounding out" well. But her reading improved super fast
and within a few months she was reading as well as my other kids had
been at eight years old - which was VERY advanced for their age -
high school, college level - as well as most adults.

But, there is more - she STILL couldn't write anything that others
could understand because her spelling was SO poor. She couldn't
consistently spell common three-letter words correctly. She usually
got the right letters in the word, but added letters and mixed up the
order in odd ways. She spelled the word, "dear," as "derar," or
"drenar," for example. Very far off - unreadable. And she had a habit
of sticking the letter "n" into words, seemingly randomly. Her
spelling problems continued for years - she was 13 years old and
still having trouble writing well enough for others to understand.
She wanted to do better, but I knew from my research that regular
spelling lessons were not likely to be helpful. I read a book called,
"My Kid Can't Spell: Understanding and Assisting Your Child's
Literacy Development," by Richard Gentry. In that book, he talked
about a spelling disorder as a very distinct and separate thing from
other learning disorders, and he gave a lot of ways to cope with it
and to help a child or adult who really just can't spell. So, rather
than focus on her inability to spell and rather than banging our
heads against the wall with spelling lessons, etc., I helped my
daughter learn some of those coping skills. She liked that because it
helped her function better, immediately. Then she got AIM and started
talking, online, to friends. Her spelling was still so bad people
couldn't understand her, but one of her "coping skills," was to just
try again with a different possible spelling. Turned out that if she
wrote a word a whole bunch of different possible ways, she could
usually recognize the correct spelling when she saw it, even though
she couldn't just write it down correctly, the first time. So, if
someone didn't understand her, she'd just try again with a bit
different spelling. AND, she started to write stories - fan fiction -
online, too. For those she used spell checkers (which, as we all
know, only help so much), but, again, it was interesting that she
could nearly always pick the correct spelling out of the suggestions
made by the spell checker. Very slowly, her spelling was clearly
improving. She signed up for NANOWRIMO (National Novel Writing Month)
and wrote a 50,000 word novel in 30 days. Spelling wasn't great but
not NEARLY as bad as I'd thought it would be. She continued to write
and chat with friends, online, and to read a lot. She did NANOWRIMO
again the next year. And after it was done, she went back and edited
it and painstakingly checked spelling until every word was correct
and Lulu press, a self-publishing company, published one copy of each
book completed by NANOWRIMO writers. So she got a lovely bound
published copy of her book. That was last November. She's 15. In the
months since then, she's become an outstanding speller - she spells
easily, now. She still asks, once in a while, to make sure she's
right, but she nearly always IS right. Last night she wasn't sure if
it should be "resistance" or "resistence" - but as soon as she asked
out loud she said, "Oh, never mind, I know now."

I am SO glad that I didn't push her or insist on reading or spelling
lessons. I truly do not believe it would have helped her, I think it
would have created a power struggle between us and the main lessons
she would have learned would have been, "Learning is hard," and "I'm
not smart." Instead, I repeatedly pointed out the ways she WAS smart,
supported her in doing the things she was good at, the things she
loved, and put a high value on those things. I reassured her over and
over again, that reading would happen for her and I pointed out to
her how different people were different in so many ways. It helped
TREMENDOUSLY to have other families around who were also relaxed and
comfortable about later reading and who had kids who were later
readers. My daughter did read at 8, with isn't all that "late" - but
it was when she was showing no signs of learning to read at 5, 6, and
7, that things might have gone very differently, if I hadn't made the
decision to accept later reading as natural and normal "for her."

Other kids I know well were still not reading at 8, 9, 10, 11, and
even 12 or 13. They now read, read very very well, love books, love
learning. As older teens, they are well-educated, well-informed, and
well-read kids. If you want to hear more about later readers and how
wonderful it can be to support them in developing in their own way,
come to the Live and Learn conference and don't miss Dan Vilter's
talk - his son is turning 17 next week, didn't read until
very much later than the norm - and Dan has a LOT of insight to share
with those who are concerned about their later-reading children.

-pam

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jlh44music

> My kids learned and are learning how to spell in all kinds of
ways. Instant messaging, email, Myspace....the older 3 have gotten
to the point where they care if things are spelled correctly.>>

My dd is 13, we've only be at this for about a year. She has always
had trouble with spelling (even though she has a wonderful
vocabulary, I love to hear some of the words she uses sometimes!).
She's been mostly play on-line games which involves typing in
messages to other players. She says the other players have been
bugging her from time to time about her inventive or shortcut
spelling (some of that is just quicker in a fast paced game, "u" for
you etc). She didn't seem to care much at first but just lately
she said she's been spelling more words correctly, not switching
letters (heck, *I* do that when I'm typing fast!) etc. We IM each
other sometimes just to chat, and I HAVE noticed her spelling is
much improved. Real life experience, not doing spelling workbooks
or writing words over and over in order to learn them.

Learning how words are spelled phonetically does NOT work for her.
She's a visual spatial learner and needs to see the entire word,
make a picture of it in her mind then store it. Quick retrieval
does not happen, which is one of the reasons she was "falling
behind" in school. Speed is not important, but learning things
that are important to her ARE.
Jann

[email protected]

>>How do kids learn to spell if they aren't learning spelling words or
using a curriculum<<

By reading. I would also investigate "invented spelling" to ease some of
your worries. If they are constantly corrected, it is going to make them feel
like they are a bad speller. Then the angst, shame and fear of the subject will
only make them believe this and perpetuate the cycle. Good luck!

Warmly,
Cynthia Mazzola DVM
aMazzing Labradors


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