Misty Felner

Message 10
From: "Kristie Cochran" kristiecochran@...
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 7:46am(PDT)
Subject: Re: 2yo play ~ was dd is a hitter

Renee wrote:
> I'm overwhelmed reading these discussions.
>
> 2 year olds *really* don't need to play w/ other kids??
> That goes against everything I've ever been told, read or inferred
> about child development. However my gut is screaming that you are
> right.
>
> Renee
>
>

I think it depends on the child.

>>I think it's more the moms that need the interaction than the kids

Joyce was responding to my post when she made that statement, and I agree
with Kristie here. I started the playgroup when dd was 6 mo., now 2.5 b/c I
needed adult interaction and to talk with moms going through what I was
going through. Thus the reason I chose kids all the same age.

>>>>None of them said, "Let's go blow bubbles together,"

At this past weeks playdate, my 2.5 yo dd brought playdough b/c she wanted
to play with it with the other kids. Once there she asked the other kids on
several occasions to come play playdough with her, there were no takers, and
they all continued to play together/side by side. I think dd is happier
when we go to groups that have older kids who respond to her requests and
are interested in doing things with her. She often finds kids a couple of
years or more older than her at the park and asks them to come play catch or
(my personal fav) she says, "Let's go build a sandcastle guys."

Message 11
From: "Pampered Chef Michelle" pamperedmichelle@...
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 7:46am(PDT)
>>>Playgroups are so unnatural. Rarely in our history do you hear
>>>stories of lots of parents getting lots of children together to create
>>>social circles.

Actually if you look at this historically speaking... Tribes often do have
large circles of children playing together while the women do their work and
chat. I think playgroups with children all the same age are unnatural, just
as classrooms are.


A new question, if a 2.5 yo goes somewhere and appears to have a good time,
plays, laughs, smiles, etc. Then later you ask if they had a good time and
they respond no. Do you believe they enjoyed it and should continue in
excursions or get togethers of this kind or should they be discontinued?


Misty

katherand2003

Ds does this too. He says "come on guys" and waves invitingly. Very
socialable and outgoing. Often shares stuff but not always. It's
just him. Not many 2 year olds do that. Naturally he always has
gravitated toward older kids at the park.

Kathe


--- In [email protected], "Misty Felner" <misty@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Message 10
> From: "Kristie Cochran" kristiecochran@...
> Date: Fri May 19, 2006 7:46am(PDT)
> Subject: Re: 2yo play ~ was dd is a hitter
>
> Renee wrote:
> > I'm overwhelmed reading these discussions.
> >
> > 2 year olds *really* don't need to play w/ other kids??
> > That goes against everything I've ever been told, read or inferred
> > about child development. However my gut is screaming that you are
> > right.
> >
> > Renee
> >
> >
>
> I think it depends on the child.
>
> >>I think it's more the moms that need the interaction than the kids
>
> Joyce was responding to my post when she made that statement, and I
agree
> with Kristie here. I started the playgroup when dd was 6 mo., now
2.5 b/c I
> needed adult interaction and to talk with moms going through what I was
> going through. Thus the reason I chose kids all the same age.
>
> >>>>None of them said, "Let's go blow bubbles together,"
>
> At this past weeks playdate, my 2.5 yo dd brought playdough b/c she
wanted
> to play with it with the other kids. Once there she asked the other
kids on
> several occasions to come play playdough with her, there were no
takers, and
> they all continued to play together/side by side. I think dd is happier
> when we go to groups that have older kids who respond to her
requests and
> are interested in doing things with her. She often finds kids a
couple of
> years or more older than her at the park and asks them to come play
catch or
> (my personal fav) she says, "Let's go build a sandcastle guys."
>
> Message 11
> From: "Pampered Chef Michelle" pamperedmichelle@...
> Date: Fri May 19, 2006 7:46am(PDT)
> >>>Playgroups are so unnatural. Rarely in our history do you hear
> >>>stories of lots of parents getting lots of children together to
create
> >>>social circles.
>
> Actually if you look at this historically speaking... Tribes often
do have
> large circles of children playing together while the women do their
work and
> chat. I think playgroups with children all the same age are
unnatural, just
> as classrooms are.
>
>
> A new question, if a 2.5 yo goes somewhere and appears to have a
good time,
> plays, laughs, smiles, etc. Then later you ask if they had a good
time and
> they respond no. Do you believe they enjoyed it and should continue in
> excursions or get togethers of this kind or should they be discontinued?
>
>
> Misty
>

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 5/21/06, Misty Felner <misty@...> wrote:
>
>
> Actually if you look at this historically speaking... Tribes often do have
> large circles of children playing together while the women do their work
> and
> chat. I think playgroups with children all the same age are unnatural,
> just
> as classrooms are.


That's speculative history. Actually from records dating back for several
mellinia (particularly from Asia, Europe and the Middle East), children once
they became old enough to follow mom around became workers, especially in
the middle and lower classes. Playtime was something that everyone did, not
just children and it was different from what we see as playtime today.
Before children could follow mom on their own they were worn or carried by
their mothers or older siblings or other family members or they were left
cradled (or worse swaddled). Children as young as 2 or 3 years old were
already helping with tasks that they could do. Modern children have far
more playtime than their ancient and medieval counterparts. And when they
did play in groups the children in the group could vary in age from toddlers
to pre-teens. I stand by what I say that playgroups as we do them today are
unatural!

A new question, if a 2.5 yo goes somewhere and appears to have a good time,
> plays, laughs, smiles, etc. Then later you ask if they had a good time
> and
> they respond no. Do you believe they enjoyed it and should continue in
> excursions or get togethers of this kind or should they be discontinued?


I would be asking why the child didn't enjoy the activity. And perhaps in a
child's eye, being home with mom is WAY more fun than playgroup. Perhas the
child doesn't like being around lots of other people, despite seeming to
have a good time. I have a child who really doesn't care for large groups.
She likes more intimate relationships with one or two people. She always
only has one or two true friends which has been a problem in the past when a
friend has had to move away or gotten interests elsewhere and quit
socialising with her. She'll go to our weekly playgroups and appears to
have a good time, but really would prefer if she could have a friend over to
her house or go over to a friend's house where it is just the two of them
than go to a place where there are tons of other people. At 2.5 she may not
be able to voice why she does or doesn't like something. I would give her
the option of whether to go or not. "It's playgroup day. Do you want to go
or is there something else you would prefer to do?"





--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 21, 2006, at 5:47 PM, Misty Felner wrote:

> if a 2.5 yo goes somewhere and appears to have a good time,
> plays, laughs, smiles, etc. Then later you ask if they had a good
> time and
> they respond no. Do you believe they enjoyed it and should
> continue in
> excursions or get togethers of this kind or should they be
> discontinued?

Kids in school laugh and have fun. I'd bet people in prison do too.
Do they all want to be there? It's called making the best of things.
It's a coping mechanism for when you don't have a choice.

Have you asked her beforehand if she wants to go? Do you give her the
option of choosing when to leave, even if it's just five minutes? Did
you ask her why she didn't have a good time? What she didn't like?
Often kids assume they have to take the whole package deal and don't
realize parts can be changed.

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

freepsgal

> A new question, if a 2.5 yo goes somewhere and appears to have a
> good time, plays, laughs, smiles, etc. Then later you ask if they
> had a good time and they respond no. Do you believe they enjoyed
> it and should continue in excursions or get togethers of this
> kind or should they be discontinued?
> Misty

My son has always been like this. He has trouble transitioning
between things. It was much worse when he was below the age of 7
years old. No matter how much fun he had doing something, when it
was time to transition away, he'd focus on that only and swear he
felt horrid the entire time. Over the years we've learned ways to
help. He's almost 10 now, and one thing that is really helpful is
letting him know exactly what time something will begin and end. He
loves facts and hates surprises. That's just his personality
style. I'm a bit like that myself. My mom used to tease me around
the holidays about my presents and it was sheer torture. She didn't
believe me when I told her upsetting it was. As an adult, I was
able to explain it better and she was genuinely surprised to hear
that I was really upset by that behavior. Jeffrey is the same way.
He gives me his wish list for Christmas or his birthday and then we
don't discuss it until the day he's opening gifts! And he's happy
that way.

So while things may seem a bit strained now, hopefully they'll
improve as he grows older.

Beth M.

Andrea Roher

I asked my father (a traditional parent) this question and his
response was fairly enlightening, though the communication ability of
your child may make a difference in how effective his answer is.
First he said that if you just disregarded the physical signs and
followed the spoken answer you would be "teaching the child a lesson."
(Not something I think any of us would aim to do.) Then he suggested
getting more detail from the child... "do you remember when you were
laughing about...", "were you having a good time when you were..."
type of thing.

For my 23-month-old son at least, it's often difficult for him to
fully understand the implications of the questions we ask him. Often
we get the same answer (yes or no) when we ask the question in the
opposite direction, which is our first step to making sure he
understood what we were asking (e.g. "Do you want to go out?"
followed by "Do you want to stay home?" or the like, whatever options
we see as being available). Rewording the question (or looking for
more options) until we get a differentiation between the options is a
challenge, sometimes, but we don't feel we've got a true answer until
we do get a differentiation in the answer (which may be the same
answer, but with a different tone... difficult to explain).

Also, with our son, his way of saying yes, a very excited "AH-ha", is
something we've all at times found amusing. His no's are more shaking
his head and a subtle "uh-uh", used most often when we ask him to
bring something to us. So, he will often "say" yes when he doesn't
necessarily mean it because he knows we love his manner of saying yes.
So, we've made it (by our early responses) more necessary to
double-check his answer to make sure he knows what we're asking.

It's possible that your child had a great time and it's possible they
truly didn't. I'd certainly want to explore the question more and not
leave it at one question/answer.

On May 21, 2006, at 5:47 PM, Misty Felner wrote:
> if a 2.5 yo goes somewhere and appears to have a good time,
> plays, laughs, smiles, etc. Then later you ask if they had a good
> time and
> they respond no. Do you believe they enjoyed it and should
> continue in
> excursions or get togethers of this kind or should they be
> discontinued?

--
Andrea L. Roher
Searching for my place in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" one day
at a time.
... maybe I've finally found it in NH! (www.FreeStateProject.org)
Visit my blog at evenstar75.blogspot.com.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Pampered Chef Michelle <pamperedmichelle@...>

That's speculative history. Actually from records dating back for
several
mellinia (particularly from Asia, Europe and the Middle East),
children once
they became old enough to follow mom around became workers, especially
in
the middle and lower classes. Playtime was something that everyone
did, not
just children and it was different from what we see as playtime today.
Before children could follow mom on their own they were worn or
carried by
their mothers or older siblings or other family members or they were
left
cradled (or worse swaddled). Children as young as 2 or 3 years old were
already helping with tasks that they could do. Modern children have far
more playtime than their ancient and medieval counterparts. And when
they
did play in groups the children in the group could vary in age from
toddlers
to pre-teens. I stand by what I say that playgroups as we do them
today are
unatural!

---=-=-=-=-

On the news last night (which I watched to find out the updates on
Barbaro!), one of the reporters was in Africa. With Bono.

He had footage (and this really sad voice) about a seven year old girl
who *had* to fix her family food every day---ground up meal made into a
dough and then fried. He made it out to be soooo terrible (not the
food, but the idea that the child cooked). That the child had "old"
eyes.

Now, she may have a terrible, terrible life. But all we got was that
one shot of her making supper. "Just think," he said, "of what
*American* girls at seven would be doing."

But I was thinking that if *that* was the worst of it, it's not that
damned bad!

She was doing real work that made a difference in her life---and her
family's. She was certainly capable.

It just made me think about how we impose our western ideals and
lifestyles onto others. Children in other cultures often contribute to
the working household. They want to be a part of it and feel needed. To
*me* this child was making a difference. I bet she was proud of what
she did.

The reporter made it out to be horrible that she would have to!

Different cultures...

-=-=-=-=-=

I would be asking why the child didn't enjoy the activity.

-=-=-=-

I'd ask the child why too. I'd also ask whether she wanted to go
before I took her back again---and that could change each time. Offer
something equally enticing---see which one she picks.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 5/23/06, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
>
> He had footage (and this really sad voice) about a seven year old girl
> who *had* to fix her family food every day---ground up meal made into a
> dough and then fried. He made it out to be soooo terrible (not the
> food, but the idea that the child cooked). That the child had "old"
> eyes.
>
> Now, she may have a terrible, terrible life. But all we got was that
> one shot of her making supper. "Just think," he said, "of what
> *American* girls at seven would be doing."


Hmmm. I can think of one girl who at 7 was doing all the housekeeping,
cooking, bill preparing, getting ready for school and tending to her
alcoholic drug addicted mother. My niece had a very tough childhood and by
age 7 was doing all the things her mother should have been doing.
Unfortunately, this is not uncommon! Perhaps we could do a commercial that
shows the same going on right here in America and then show some children in
Africa playing and having a good time.





--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa

I agree, it's not the action, it's the context. I was the 'parent' in
my relationship with my mentally ill mom (and alot like your
niece...how I wish someone had saved me!) . However, my seven yo
loves to cook. She makes everyone's breakfast if she gets up first.
Nearly every day she makes a snack or dessert. Yesterday it was
homemade nilla wafers and homemade banana pudding. She has so much
joy when she can get in the kitchen and starting measuring and
mixing! And lots of satisfaction when she gets to serve it to her
friends and family. So stuff I resented doing (and still do today) is
stuff that she begs to do!

Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On May 23, 2006, at 9:35 AM, Pampered Chef Michelle wrote:

>
> Hmmm. I can think of one girl who at 7 was doing all the
> housekeeping,
> cooking, bill preparing, getting ready for school and tending to her
> alcoholic drug addicted mother. My niece had a very tough
> childhood and by
> age 7 was doing all the things her mother should have been doing.
> Unfortunately, this is not uncommon! Perhaps we could do a
> commercial that
> shows the same going on right here in America and then show some
> children in
> Africa playing and having a good time.