agasma7

Hello!

I have been reading the posts over the last couple of days. I really
don't know where to begin.

How about here...

I began homeschooling in "kindergarden" having bought into the "you
have to have your kid at a table and learn with textbooks and forced
art projects that I have decided to do" approach.

As children go, she is not a "table" child and resented being there.
I fought, argued, struggled, cried the whole time as did she. But,
at least she wasn't in "public" school.

We did this through to 2nd grade, when I finally sent her to public
school. By this time I had given birth to my 3rd child.

We homeschooled again in 3rd grade and while I still hadn't shaken
all my "expectations" of myself and her...fitting into other
people's boxes...we enjoyed the year more, cirriculum free. We used
the library and read, I taught language Arts the way I wanted to.
While we still had tons of "at the table" and still the constant
drill of "FOCUS!" and "do your work!", it was less than before.

Something had been planted in me on our REALLY good days. Something
was taking form...I was starting to wake up.

So what did I do?

I got her into a private school. I was happy about this, the kids
were great, there was a strong sense of community, the teacher to
child ratio was low.

At the same time I began "homeschooling" my second daughter through
and ISP. I KNEW that she wouldnt' fit into the "system" when I
started her, but I had no idea the pressure would be so much. It has
gotten so bad, the CT TOLD me (as if she had to) to READ to my
daughter. I said I did and she smiled and nodded and said, yes,
well, make a list of the books you have read to her so when I come,
I can see!!!!!!
My daughter sits a table and completes 4-6 hours of school work
(because she is not a fast paperworker) in order to stay up with the
work assigned so we can stay out of truancy issues. EVERY SINGLE
PAPER requires her writing. The CT asked me when I didn't have
the "Writing practices" done, what we did for writing!? I picked up
the stack of papers and said, "Every single paper requires her to
write. I think this is sufficient." She said, "well she needs more
practice" I told her "Listen, Sadee's handwriting won't always look
like a first grader's handwriting. What you see on these papers is
her dislike and extreme bordem with sitting hours on end at a table."
She said to me "that's why you give breaks". You think?


We are nearing the end of this year and the lessons I have learned
this year have been beyond where I thought I could ever expand. I
was a fool not to trust my instincts. I was living under so much
fear that what "they said" was true. I don't have a certificate, and
I can't teach my child.

This year my eldest, Rivka, started school a bright, energetic, red
head! She was positive and helpful and respectful.
We are near the end of the year and she is drawing strength from
knowing that she doesn't have to go next year.
She is tired, grumpy, negative, and FAR less interested daily in
familial activities. She is aware of all this (which amazes me) and
is counting the days and putting in extra effort toward keeping a
postivive attitude.

I guess somehow I needed this year to marinade...or grow up.

I get it now. I really get it.

And you know what?

I'm gonna follow the CT's advice and give my kids a break.


~Naomi
mother of

Rivka
Sadee
Judah
Ari

Wife of Ori

Rue Kream

>>I get it now. I really get it.

**Yay!

>>We are near the end of the year and she is drawing strength from
knowing that she doesn't have to go next year.

**Why wait? Can't she come home now?

Welcome to the list :o). ~Rue



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

--- In [email protected], "agasma7" <facingeast@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> I have been reading the posts over the last couple of days. I
really
> don't know where to begin.
>
> How about here...
>
> I began homeschooling in "kindergarden" having bought into
the "you
> have to have your kid at a table and learn with textbooks and
forced
> art projects that I have decided to do" approach.
>
> As children go, she is not a "table" child and resented being
there.
> I fought, argued, struggled, cried the whole time as did she. But,
> at least she wasn't in "public" school.
>
> We did this through to 2nd grade, when I finally sent her to
public
> school. By this time I had given birth to my 3rd child.
>
> We homeschooled again in 3rd grade and while I still hadn't shaken
> all my "expectations" of myself and her...fitting into other
> people's boxes...we enjoyed the year more, cirriculum free. We
used
> the library and read, I taught language Arts the way I wanted to.
> While we still had tons of "at the table" and still the constant
> drill of "FOCUS!" and "do your work!", it was less than before.
>
> Something had been planted in me on our REALLY good days.
Something
> was taking form...I was starting to wake up.
>
> So what did I do?
>
> I got her into a private school. I was happy about this, the kids
> were great, there was a strong sense of community, the teacher to
> child ratio was low.
>
> At the same time I began "homeschooling" my second daughter
through
> and ISP. I KNEW that she wouldnt' fit into the "system" when I
> started her, but I had no idea the pressure would be so much. It
has
> gotten so bad, the CT TOLD me (as if she had to) to READ to my
> daughter. I said I did and she smiled and nodded and said, yes,
> well, make a list of the books you have read to her so when I
come,
> I can see!!!!!!
> My daughter sits a table and completes 4-6 hours of school work
> (because she is not a fast paperworker) in order to stay up with
the
> work assigned so we can stay out of truancy issues. EVERY SINGLE
> PAPER requires her writing. The CT asked me when I didn't have
> the "Writing practices" done, what we did for writing!? I picked
up
> the stack of papers and said, "Every single paper requires her to
> write. I think this is sufficient." She said, "well she needs more
> practice" I told her "Listen, Sadee's handwriting won't always
look
> like a first grader's handwriting. What you see on these papers is
> her dislike and extreme bordem with sitting hours on end at a
table."
> She said to me "that's why you give breaks". You think?
>
>
> We are nearing the end of this year and the lessons I have learned
> this year have been beyond where I thought I could ever expand. I
> was a fool not to trust my instincts. I was living under so much
> fear that what "they said" was true. I don't have a certificate,
and
> I can't teach my child.
>
> This year my eldest, Rivka, started school a bright, energetic,
red
> head! She was positive and helpful and respectful.
> We are near the end of the year and she is drawing strength from
> knowing that she doesn't have to go next year.
> She is tired, grumpy, negative, and FAR less interested daily in
> familial activities. She is aware of all this (which amazes me)
and
> is counting the days and putting in extra effort toward keeping a
> postivive attitude.
>
> I guess somehow I needed this year to marinade...or grow up.
>
> I get it now. I really get it.
>
> And you know what?
>
> I'm gonna follow the CT's advice and give my kids a break.
>
>
> ~Naomi
> mother of
>
> Rivka
> Sadee
> Judah
> Ari
>
> Wife of Ori
>

Joanne

*I may have accidently sent a message with no reply. My apologies to
those on digest*

Hi Naomi...welcome. There's a lot of information here. Take some
time and read some of the older threads. If you have any questions,
feel free to ask and I know someone will be able to help you.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com





--- In [email protected], "agasma7" <facingeast@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> I have been reading the posts over the last couple of days. I
really > don't know where to begin.
>

agasma7

Hi Rue,

Yes, she could. But we made an aggrement that I feel somewhat
compelled to stick to. I seriously considered weather or not it
would be in her best interest to pull her a few months ago, but
decided that in the long run she will be better for having had the
experience and kept up her end of an aggreement. She will feel as if
she succeeded in this.

She BEGGED to go to this school. Its where all of her friends go and
she wanted more than anything to go. I explained that from what I
had heard it was a VERY demanding school and I played out everything
she is going through now at the beginning of the year. She said if
we could get her in, she would work hard and it would all be worth
it.

She's in. It really stressed us financially all year to do this for
(maybe *to* her) but as aggrements go...

She will bounce back and I can see it more clearly as we near the
end of the year.

It was a choice we made together and now will follow through with.




--- In [email protected], "Rue Kream" <skreams@...>
wrote:
>
> >>I get it now. I really get it.
>
> **Yay!
>
> >>We are near the end of the year and she is drawing strength from
> knowing that she doesn't have to go next year.
>
> **Why wait? Can't she come home now?
>
> Welcome to the list :o). ~Rue
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ren Allen

"It was a choice we made together and now will follow through with."

It's much healthier to recognize when a choice is not serving you
well, and change course. Following through with something just because
you signed up, is a poor reason for finishing if it's sucking joy from
your life.

Much better to help children realize they can change their minds,
change their lives, change for the better at any time.

REad this, you might feel better:
http://sandradodd.com/empowerment

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Melanie Ilsley

-Welcome Naomi-

I began unschooling my daughter (8 yr old) only 3 months and 8 days ago, and she has
changed so much, she has gone from insecure, sullen, angry, to the child I used to have, she
loves to learn, and we really have fun again. I wish I had done this earlier, but she didn't
want to!! We are still deschooling (the whole family), but we are on the right track. Welcome
to the list and the journey!!! It is amazing.

Melanie in Vt
>

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 5/17/06, agasma7 <facingeast@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Rue,
>
> Yes, she could. But we made an aggrement that I feel somewhat
> compelled to stick to. I seriously considered weather or not it
> would be in her best interest to pull her a few months ago, but
> decided that in the long run she will be better for having had the
> experience and kept up her end of an aggreement. She will feel as if
> she succeeded in this.


Would you continue doing someting that you found miserable just for the
experience? Is your *child* going to be better for having to endure
something that is so difficult for her? Agreements can always be
renegotiated and if she is truly so miserable, what is keeping her in school
going to do to foster trust between you and your child?

Just a few thoughts.





--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

But we made an aggrement that I feel somewhat
> compelled to stick to. I<Snip>, but
> decided that in the long run she will be better for having had the
> experience and kept up her end of an aggreement. She will feel as if
> she succeeded in this.
**************************
Succeeded. At what? Being unhappy?
When I was a senior in high shool, I went to a public school which was vastly different from the various private schools I had been into and out of all my life. Bigger, more kids, and LUNCH. Before I started school there, Having no idea how lunch was handled, I told my parents that I needed 1.00 for lunch in the cafeteria (1984) Low and behold, on my first day of school I found out that NO ONE ate in the cafeteria, how uncool! Like, no way, gag me with a spoon! (Like I said, 1984) So I headed off to the shopping plaza next door to school. One dollar in my pocket, no lunch from home. I stole a sub from Giant Foods deli case, every day for almost an entire semester. Logical to me, after all, I had an agreement! I had to stick to it! 1.00 is what I said so 1.00 it'll be.
I made a mistake. I had very little info as a 16 year old to make a completely informed, no not completely, but decently informed decision. How I wish someone had said, "Ya' know, this can change. It's okay. You/I/We made a mistake, let's move on from there."


Elissa Jill
The music in me is a gift from the Universe.
My job is to care for it and use it well; I am its bearer, not its owner.
~Johnny Cash's Moma

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

agasma7

Good Morning!

Interesting story. You obviously have a lot of passion about your
decisions. Being able to learn from our past is very important.

If this were any other school, I wouldn't be a stickler for staying
in. But it isn't. And the people she attends school with (teachers,
students, and volunteers, and other parents) are all people she has
built meaningful relationships with.

We don't have problems with children being mean to one another any
more than you might see siblings argue. It's the only place on earth
like, I am sure. And the school only goes up to the 6th grade. My
daughter is in 4th grade and neither she nor the children in her
class are much interested in cool. It's NOTHING like any other
private school or public school I have ever seen.

Our problem here isn't the other kids, or her inability to maintin
her values taught in our home. What our problem is, is the amount of
school work and classroom time and hours of homework, and lack of
sleep or play time. I consider the approach cruel. But many children
come out of this school, well developed, high acheivers. Tired. But
good kids and I know this because I have attend our synagogue (and
am friends) with many of the children who have been through it.

I have pulled her from school before. But the situation is different
here. Even she agrees that she should finish the year. Pretty decent
insight for a 10 year old. She knows I don't worry much about what
she gets on her reprot card, tests, etc...I only care that she
tries. And you know what? She does well.

Part of the education I want her to have is that just because
something is difficult for a time, doesn't mean one should just bail
on it. If this were a "years on end" type thing, we could
reconsider.

Besides, I AM pulling her out. I am NOT forcing her to finish the
next 2 years at the school. (which, by the opinion of many people I
should) We (my daughter and I and her Dad) have decided to finish
what we started, because she is able to.

We have so much to look forward to this next year.


~Naomi.




-- In [email protected], "Elissa Jill Cleaveland"
<MystikMomma@...> wrote:
>
> But we made an aggrement that I feel somewhat
> > compelled to stick to. I<Snip>, but
> > decided that in the long run she will be better for having had
the
> > experience and kept up her end of an aggreement. She will feel
as if
> > she succeeded in this.
> **************************
> Succeeded. At what? Being unhappy?
> When I was a senior in high shool, I went to a public school which
was vastly different from the various private schools I had been
into and out of all my life. Bigger, more kids, and LUNCH. Before I
started school there, Having no idea how lunch was handled, I told
my parents that I needed 1.00 for lunch in the cafeteria (1984) Low
and behold, on my first day of school I found out that NO ONE ate in
the cafeteria, how uncool! Like, no way, gag me with a spoon! (Like
I said, 1984) So I headed off to the shopping plaza next door to
school. One dollar in my pocket, no lunch from home. I stole a sub
from Giant Foods deli case, every day for almost an entire semester.
Logical to me, after all, I had an agreement! I had to stick to it!
1.00 is what I said so 1.00 it'll be.
> I made a mistake. I had very little info as a 16 year old to make
a completely informed, no not completely, but decently informed
decision. How I wish someone had said, "Ya' know, this can change.
It's okay. You/I/We made a mistake, let's move on from there."
>
>
> Elissa Jill
> The music in me is a gift from the Universe.
> My job is to care for it and use it well; I am its bearer, not its
owner.
> ~Johnny Cash's Moma
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

>>Yes, she could. But we made an aggrement that I feel somewhat compelled to stick to.>>

I wouldn't stick to a agreement that wasn't working or was a bad experience for my child. Why make her bounce back when you can just help her escape and fly away now? :o)

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "agasma7" <facingeast@...>

agasma7

The experience isn't all bad. Like I said there are some very strong
and valid reasons to let her finish these last 2 weeks.

I know it has been challenging for her, but I have seen her grow in
some very important ways this year. For example, she has learned
that even when she FEELS grumpy, she should still treat others with
respect. I watch her do it and it amazes me!

She WANTS to finish the year. It's not a decision made because I
don't understand that institutionalization isn't good for her. But
in reality this situation isn't completly without its benefits for
now.

Besides, life in large part is learning how to bounce back when we
don't always make the decisions we should have to begin with.

AND, I don't totally regret this year. It has taught me some very
strong and lasting lessons which will HUGELY benefit my babies. I am
sure it has done the same for her.

Thanks for the input.
Naomi


--- In [email protected], zenmomma@... wrote:
>
> >>Yes, she could. But we made an aggrement that I feel somewhat
compelled to stick to.>>
>
> I wouldn't stick to a agreement that wasn't working or was a bad
experience for my child. Why make her bounce back when you can just
help her escape and fly away now? :o)
>
> --
> ~Mary
> http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
>
> "The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
> green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling
truly
> alive."
> ~Thich Nhat Hanh
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "agasma7" <facingeast@...>
>

[email protected]

>>She WANTS to finish the year.>>

Well then she should. :o)

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "agasma7" <facingeast@...>

agasma7

That was my thought! :)


--- In [email protected], zenmomma@... wrote:
>
> >>She WANTS to finish the year.>>
>
> Well then she should. :o)
>
> --
> ~Mary
> http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
>
> "The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
> green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling
truly
> alive."
> ~Thich Nhat Hanh
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "agasma7" <facingeast@...>
>

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

>>She WANTS to finish the year.>>

Well then she should. :o)
**************
Ahhh... That's a whole different thing. I thought that you said she was unhappy because I read this:
This year my eldest, Rivka, started school a bright, energetic, red
head! She was positive and helpful and respectful.
We are near the end of the year and she is drawing strength from
knowing that she doesn't have to go next year.
She is tired, grumpy, negative, and FAR less interested daily in
familial activities. She is aware of all this (which amazes me) and
is counting the days and putting in extra effort toward keeping a
postivive attitude.When I recently took a promotion to night manager at the restaurant, I was determined to do well and make them proud.My family after two weeks said to me, "You're tired, really grumpy, you never are around and when you are you'd rather be elsewhere(Usually sleeping)Do you really love you job? I said no but....They lovingly informed me that if I quit, I won't be a failure, they missed me being there and being happy and it was really okay to do so.I did choose to leave that position although if I had chosen to stay, I would have done so knowing that the ones I love showed how much they care by giving me "permission" to do what was not the typical responsible adult thing. Elissa Jill
The music in me is a gift from the Universe.
My job is to care for it and use it well; I am its bearer, not its owner.
~Johnny Cash's Moma

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

agasma7

Yes, all thoes things are true. But I even asked her again yesterday
and she still says she wants to finish.

It's not that big of an issue. She is almost finished with the year.
Like I said, if it were the beginning of the year or it was a public
school or any other school, I would pull her. But it's not the case
and to explain why this is the right thing to do is just too
exhausting and not so easy to get across.

This is a very tightly knit Jewish community and there are very real
bonds here between people at school (who are not only at school, but
in our lives often) and our family.

She will be fine. And we are going to relish every minute of this
next year. She expressed her desire to stay to finsih the year, even
though it's not easy all the time, its still valueable to her. So we
are making this decision because we think its healthy for her.

I have already given her permission to leave. Still, we are counting
the days till we are through! :)

I really do want the best for my daughter and I really do know that
institutionalizing her isn't it.

We are homeschoolers at heart. It's the unschooling that I am
somewhat new to.

Thank you, for being concerned. I can tell this will be a good
group. :)






--- In [email protected], "Elissa Jill Cleaveland"
<MystikMomma@...> wrote:
>
> >>She WANTS to finish the year.>>
>
> Well then she should. :o)
> **************
> Ahhh... That's a whole different thing. I thought that you said
she was unhappy because I read this:
> This year my eldest, Rivka, started school a bright, energetic, red
> head! She was positive and helpful and respectful.
> We are near the end of the year and she is drawing strength from
> knowing that she doesn't have to go next year.
> She is tired, grumpy, negative, and FAR less interested daily in
> familial activities. She is aware of all this (which amazes me) and
> is counting the days and putting in extra effort toward keeping a
> postivive attitude.When I recently took a promotion to night
manager at the restaurant, I was determined to do well and make them
proud.My family after two weeks said to me, "You're tired, really
grumpy, you never are around and when you are you'd rather be
elsewhere(Usually sleeping)Do you really love you job? I said no
but....They lovingly informed me that if I quit, I won't be a
failure, they missed me being there and being happy and it was
really okay to do so.I did choose to leave that position although if
I had chosen to stay, I would have done so knowing that the ones I
love showed how much they care by giving me "permission" to do what
was not the typical responsible adult thing. Elissa Jill
> The music in me is a gift from the Universe.
> My job is to care for it and use it well; I am its bearer, not its
owner.
> ~Johnny Cash's Moma
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Mary Jo Walters

Hello I am new to this list.

My son Emile is now 6 and will stay home from public school this year.
Last year was so forced that his stress levels showed through his
chewing holes in all his shirts, some so much that I cut them off.
His teacher even said about the teaching to the test, that she didn't know
when she was getting her teaching degree that Kindgarten would be 1 st
grade. My son's school stressed reading and writing everyday. Very little
creative play and no time for lunch. We sent him by not following our
own likes but subcomed to neighbor pressure and less than .05 don't send
their kids.

So I join this list to learn more about unschooling as the pressure mounts
from family to "explain" our choice. It really feels like a choice. A relief
a big relief to not go on the wheel again this fall.

How many people are writing roughly on this list?

thanks,
MJ

madison, wi

mom to emile 6
eva 3
and seymour 1 1/2


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Mary Jo Walters <mjleplae@...> wrote:
>> So I join this list to learn more about unschooling as the pressure mounts
> from family to "explain" our choice.

Don't try to explain unschooling until you've been doing it a few years. If you feel a need to explain anything at all, tell people what you wrote here - it was ruining your son's health and you're pursuing other options For Now. Let other people think you can still change your mind (after all, its true) and they'll be less likely to rake you over the coals!

Here are some good links with tons of basic unschooling information:

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

Unschooling articles and blogs:
http://enjoylifeunschooling.com/

> How many people are writing roughly on this list?
This list has a couple thousand members, but naturally not nearly as many writers. Its been quiet lately, so if you want more of a jump-start into topics that come up frequently for other unschoolers theres a list with a focus on younger children here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/

A site for general connection with some discussion boards here:
http://familyrun.ning.com/

There are other lists linked on all the sites above - and its a good idea to read any unschooling list for awhile, since the ideas are going to be rather new and startling and some of the responses will seem shocking at first.

---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 16)

Mary Jo Walters

Thanks for the detailed directions. My son Emile was loved being home till
we sent him last year, now we're back. And yes people think they are doing
coomunity service by conviencing us to not unschool. like weddings that are
only male and female- comfort and reassurance that what they have done- got
married to one person-- is the only way.

I will read on.... mj

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:20 AM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...>wrote:

>
>
> Mary Jo Walters <mjleplae@...> wrote:
> >> So I join this list to learn more about unschooling as the pressure
> mounts
> > from family to "explain" our choice.
>
> Don't try to explain unschooling until you've been doing it a few years. If
> you feel a need to explain anything at all, tell people what you wrote here
> - it was ruining your son's health and you're pursuing other options For
> Now. Let other people think you can still change your mind (after all, its
> true) and they'll be less likely to rake you over the coals!
>
> Here are some good links with tons of basic unschooling information:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
>
> Unschooling articles and blogs:
> http://enjoylifeunschooling.com/
>
>
> > How many people are writing roughly on this list?
> This list has a couple thousand members, but naturally not nearly as many
> writers. Its been quiet lately, so if you want more of a jump-start into
> topics that come up frequently for other unschoolers theres a list with a
> focus on younger children here:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/
>
> A site for general connection with some discussion boards here:
> http://familyrun.ning.com/
>
> There are other lists linked on all the sites above - and its a good idea
> to read any unschooling list for awhile, since the ideas are going to be
> rather new and startling and some of the responses will seem shocking at
> first.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 16)
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JJ

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> . .you're pursuing other options For Now. Let other
>people think you can still change your mind (after all, its true)


Heck, I told MYSELF this, for years! Coming from such a strong schooled background and education career, with all my former colleagues being professional educators one way or another, this gave me much-needed peace of mind to enjoy those early years at home and not worry overmuch about how they would handle high-stakes tests and high school and college and competitive careers, etc.

I had to overcome thoughts like what if I die and they have to be put in school at an awkward age of divergence from the norm. What if their dad dies and I have to go to work, same worry. What if -- what if -- morbid mom worries. (I would have had big worries if we'd been schooling, I'm sure. I kept telling myself we could always get back into "school" if need be but that being locked into just one place is more to worry about than being locked out of just one place.)