Ren

This:
" What I'm saying is that I
do not recognize a division between homeschooling and unschooling."

and this:
" But for all reasonable
intents and purposes, and for the record, I do not make any real
distinction between unschooling and homeschooling."

Does not equal this:
" I see school at home and natural learning
as simply two methods of homeschooling; two methods on a very wide
scale of options."

The fact that they are two methods, is a distinction right there.

Maybe what you are trying to say, is that we are all homeschoolers. Out in mainstream society, I am a homeschooler. Homeschooling is huge and wide and encompasses all of us that choose any kind of home education...yes. But within the homeschooling community, it is helpful to have those distinctions, for better and more efficient communication.
Someone that does Charlotte Mason and wants to discuss that, won't want a general homeschool discussion. Someone that believes in an eclectic/relaxed approach, might find the Abeka discussion a bit nauseating, and vice versa.:) I distinguish myself as an unschooler WITHIN the unschooling community, and with those that question the method of education we believe in.

There IS a distinction. Unschooling IS homeschooling, but homeschooling is not always UNschooling.

If your lists are going to say "homeschooling 101", "Homeschooling cafe" etc.... (and I DON'T know that's what you intend, only guessing), then I don't believe they will be helpful to those that wish to further their understanding of UNschooling.

The distinction exists. Being unschoolers doesn't change the fact that we are also homeschoolers.

Ren


"There is no way to
peace. Peace is the way."
~Quaker saying

Helen Hegener

At 2:14 PM +0000 5/31/04, Ren wrote:
>This:
>" What I'm saying is that I
>do not recognize a division between homeschooling and unschooling."
>
>and this:
>" But for all reasonable
>intents and purposes, and for the record, I do not make any real
>distinction between unschooling and homeschooling."
>
>Does not equal this:
>" I see school at home and natural learning
>as simply two methods of homeschooling; two methods on a very wide
>scale of options."
>
>The fact that they are two methods, is a distinction right there.

Ren, in the first two statements I was talking about homeschooling
and unschooling. In the third one I was talking about school at home
and natural learning.

>Maybe what you are trying to say, is that we are all homeschoolers.

Yes. I would say that.

>Out in mainstream society, I am a homeschooler. Homeschooling is
>huge and wide and encompasses all of us that choose any kind of home
>education...yes. But within the homeschooling community, it is
>helpful to have those distinctions, for better and more efficient
>communication.

I agree. But over the course of time I finally came to the conclusion
that those distinctions were being taken to an extreme, and instead
of facilitating better and more efficient communication, the result
was less and less communication.

>Someone that does Charlotte Mason and wants to discuss that, won't
>want a general homeschool discussion. Someone that believes in an
>eclectic/relaxed approach, might find the Abeka discussion a bit
>nauseating, and vice versa.:) I distinguish myself as an unschooler
>WITHIN the unschooling community, and with those that question the
>method of education we believe in.
>
>There IS a distinction. Unschooling IS homeschooling, but
>homeschooling is not always UNschooling.

I agree.

>If your lists are going to say "homeschooling 101", "Homeschooling
>cafe" etc.... (and I DON'T know that's what you intend, only
>guessing), then I don't believe they will be helpful to those that
>wish to further their understanding of UNschooling.

There are plenty of places to further one's understanding of unschooling.

I think it's more important right now to mend some of the serious
rifts that have developed over this issue as evidenced by the amazing
response to my post on unschooling, primarily on our HEM- lists and
the AHA- lists, but increasingly on smaller local and support group
lists. This topic has touched a very raw nerve in the homeschooling
community.

Helen

Jennifer Coleman

Hi! I am new to this list and it was recommended on
UnschoolingDsicussion. I began homeschooling in 1/04 after taking my
3 sons out of public school (they are now 15,11,9). We began with
a "school at home" approach as I didn't know there was anything
else, and our journey has been leading us to unschooling as I learn
more about it. I joined looking for advice and knowledge from those
who are already there or have begun unschooling, especially after
having been in school. I am drawn to unschooling as it seems it
would allow my children to develop into who they really are. I also
have a 2 year old daughter. Our home is very relaxed already, I read
back through a lot of the posts to get ideas, and our kids already
make a lot of the choices for themselves that i saw discussed such
as food and bedtimes. Thanks in advance for any replies!
jennifer

hmschoolmtnmama

Hi Jennifer -
I'm new here too - although not new to homeschooling (been a
homeschooling family for 9 years) I AM new to unschooling. I have
three children 14, 11 and 7 - the two oldest are girls and my
youngest one is a boy. I am very interested in finding out more
about unschooling. Have you read any of John Holt's books - or the
Unschoolers Handbook - I also found Christian Unschooling helpful -
and a book called Guerilla Learning that is basically written to
parents of kids in public school - but talks a lot about how that
kind of rote fact memorization does not work - and it won't in our
homeschools either. An awesome encouragement. My 14 year old is
currently reading a book called Real Lives as well.
I live in WV - where are you from?
I hope to talk to you some more -
Julie

--- In [email protected], "Jennifer Coleman"
<purpledragonlily@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi! I am new to this list and it was recommended on
> UnschoolingDsicussion. I began homeschooling in 1/04 after taking
my
> 3 sons out of public school (they are now 15,11,9). We began with
> a "school at home" approach as I didn't know there was anything
> else, and our journey has been leading us to unschooling as I
learn
> more about it. I joined looking for advice and knowledge from
those
> who are already there or have begun unschooling, especially after
> having been in school. I am drawn to unschooling as it seems it
> would allow my children to develop into who they really are. I
also
> have a 2 year old daughter. Our home is very relaxed already, I
read
> back through a lot of the posts to get ideas, and our kids already
> make a lot of the choices for themselves that i saw discussed such
> as food and bedtimes. Thanks in advance for any replies!
> jennifer

hmschoolmtnmama

--- In [email protected], "Jennifer Coleman"
<purpledragonlily@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi! I am new to this list and it was recommended on
> UnschoolingDsicussion. I began homeschooling in 1/04 after taking
my
> 3 sons out of public school (they are now 15,11,9). We began with
> a "school at home" approach as I didn't know there was anything
> else, and our journey has been leading us to unschooling as I
learn
> more about it. I joined looking for advice and knowledge from
those
> who are already there or have begun unschooling, especially after
> having been in school. I am drawn to unschooling as it seems it
> would allow my children to develop into who they really are. I
also
> have a 2 year old daughter. Our home is very relaxed already, I
read
> back through a lot of the posts to get ideas, and our kids already
> make a lot of the choices for themselves that i saw discussed such
> as food and bedtimes. Thanks in advance for any replies!
> jennifer

[email protected]

Try this, or nothing!

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nrsluv2b6

my name is jessica and i am homeschooling my 5 kids. i plan on using
some workbooks/strucured learning simply because i must appease my ocd
tendencies. [:)] i worry though they wont "know it all". i have one
son the oldest that can be very trying. the others are not as trying as
he is. they have gone through some very rough stuff the last couple of
years. their father and i split up then he signed the divorce papers
giving me full custody and then he was shot and died. the autopsy says
suicide but i think the girlfriend killed him. the kids have had a lot
to deal with and i just feel they need to have a year of learning what
they are interested in with some strucured math. at the moment they are
arguing about playstation 2.



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Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/27/06, nrsluv2b6 <luv2b6@...> wrote:
>

> my name is jessica and i am homeschooling my 5 kids. i plan on using
> some workbooks/strucured learning simply because i must appease my ocd
> tendencies. [:)]

Those are *your* tendencies. Don't expect the children to be the appeasers. :)


i worry though they wont "know it all". i have one
> son the oldest that can be very trying. the others are not as trying as
> he is.

Do you know it all? Does anyone know it all? None of our "greatest
miinds" know it all, but they sure know a lot about the things that
make them "greatest minds."

they have gone through some very rough stuff the last couple of
> years. their father and i split up then he signed the divorce papers
> giving me full custody and then he was shot and died. the autopsy says
> suicide but i think the girlfriend killed him. the kids have had a lot
> to deal with and i just feel they need to have a year of learning what
> they are interested in with some strucured math. at the moment they are
> arguing about playstation 2.

Math. It's highly over rated. I'm not belittling math, but just the
need to do worksheets in order to learn it. We learn math as we need
math. It sounds like your children need some major help in dealing
with the loss of their father. They will have plenty of time to
"learn math" later. Right now it sounds like they need to grieve and
grow and trust. Forcing them to do structured assignments is not
going to lead them to a healing place and could cause their healing to
take longer.

I hope your family finds peace and joy through unschooling.


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Rue Kream

>> i plan on using some workbooks/strucured learning simply because i must
appease my ocd tendencies. [:)]

**I'm not sure if your smiley means you don't actually have ocd. I have it,
and so does my daughter, although we call it oc, as neither of us feels
disordered :o). Whether you do or not, something we've learned might be
helpful to you: The less you appease it the quieter it gets. ~Rue


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freepsgal

> my name is jessica and i am homeschooling my 5 kids. i plan on
> using some workbooks/strucured learning simply because i must
> appease my ocd tendencies. [:)]

Nah, don't put your tendencies on your children. I felt much the same
way when I was giving up our structured busywork. I made a promise
with myself. If I felt the need to ask the kids to do school work,
I'd have to complete it myself first. It's amazing how quickly I lost
interest in having the kids do schoolwork. :)

There is NO way you can teach them everything they need to know. But
you realize that, right? :)

Unschooling is a process you must go through yourself, not just your
children. That's been a very helpful thought for me during my journey.

Beth M.

Joyce Fetteroll

> There is NO way you can teach them everything they need to know. But
> you realize that, right? :)

There's no way you can *teach* everything they know -- that is *put*
it into their heads -- but you can help them reach what interests
them and as a side effect they will learn what they need.

School takes concepts out of the real world and puts them in books.
If you have 12 cookies and 3 kids, how many cookies does each kid get
is *hard*. But give kids a plate of cookies and they figure it out
easily. They *absorb* the meaning of dividing. *Later* they can learn
how to represent that in formal mathematical notation. But now, when
they're younger, it's a lot more important for them to play and mess
around with mathematical concepts that come up in the course of their
playing.

It won't look like school math. It will look like beating a level on
a video game but they'll be learning far more than it looks like.

Did you teach them -- use workbooks and lessons -- everything they
know about English? Or did they just use English to explore what
interested them and get what they wanted and *as a side effect* they
got better at English.

It's a mysterious process to most people so most people don't take it
seriously. Educational experts *do* take Spanish class seriously
because they can test kids to show how well they're "learning".

Real life doesn't work like that. We have feedback from using things
for real life personally meaningful reasons that helps us figure out
whether we're getting it or not. My daughter didn't have to
understand percentages in order to use them in video games. But as
she used them, and saw them used in other contexts, she refined her
understanding. Then seeing how they're manipulated with mathematical
notation was a piece of cake because she had a good foundation of
understanding what percentages are by using them.

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff.

Unschooling is about exploring life. Kids explore their interests and
get better at their interests because they *want* to know more. Their
life pursuits won't come from math class. It will come from the
things that make them jump out of bed in the morning. They *will*
absorb math because it's part of life -- as a side effect of living.

Don't be worried if all they seem to want to do is explore video
games ;-) My daughter watched a lot of cartoons for a couple of
years. Not because she'll be a professional cartoon watcher ;-) but
because the storytelling was absorbing for her.

People fear that kids will avoid math (and history and science and so
forth) because schooled kids will. But those subjects aren't
inherently boring. Unschooled kids don't have the experience with
dull textbooks and dull workbooks. Everything is potentially
interesting.

As a matter of fact my daughter has essentially done no formal math
yet at 13 decided to take the Statistics class her father teachers at
college, then followed it with Contemporary Math and then College
Algebra *BECAUSE IT'S FUN* for her. (And -- though high marks aren't
the goal of unschooling -- she was near the top when not at the top
of the 3 classes -- "competing" against kids who had had years of
preparation. That makes it seem as though preparation has the
opposite effect!) She doesn't have 12 years of experience with math
being dull so she takes it because it's an interest.

Joyce

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[email protected]

my name is jessica and i am homeschooling my 5 kids. i plan on using
> some workbooks/strucured learning simply because i must appease my ocd
> tendencies. [:)]


Jessica, can you find some workbooks that you would like to do? When I
first started unschooling, I found a small project or two that would appease that
part of me that likes to do things "in order". I bought a learn to play the
piano book and did some study courses on-line. Barnes and Noble has several
free courses (you have to buy the book) on many subjects at BN University on
line.

You will be busy appeasing your own needs and your children will be learning
in their own way!

Leslie in SC




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maggielou007

I name is Jennifer. We are a crazy family of 6. 3 boys and 1 girl.
12,8,5,2. If you count my husband than I have 4 boys.LOL I just joined
your group. I am new to homeschooling and very new to unschooling. We
have had our son home since Nov.We enjoy him being home so much. I
can't wait to take the other two out of school. I am letting them make
that choice.I love reading post and getting ideas from everyone.Thank
you so much for allowing to be in your group.
Jennifer