Indignation, negativity
Sandra Dodd
I’m bringing this to start a new topic with it.
Here is the post she will quote in a bit:
https://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2012/05/see-beauty-in_20.html
From: nacho katy <nachokaty@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Not junk / how's this group?
Date: August 14, 2018 at 10:09:02 PM MDT
To: Always Learning <[email protected]>
I admit I am guilty of mostly using my phone for email or browsing "whatever" it is; it's just more convenient and accessible. By the time I get around to my laptop, I'm not really into thinking about serious thoughts or ruminating unschooling ideas. BUT, today I used the randomizer for the first time on Just Add Light and Stir (AND, it *IS* much lovelier on a computer!), and I got this:
It's easy to see beauty in nature.
It's good to learn to see beauty in tables, cloth, air, spoons, socks, switches, handles, doorknobs, words, sounds, air, clouds, breeze, and ideas.
(from May 12, 2002)
Man, I want that ease to come into all problems. I have a tendency to be too quick to anger, well, anger is not exactly right, but irritation or aggravation / annoyance, whatever, which manifests itself as anger in the moment or at least appears as anger --a raised voice, unkind words that sort of thing. Which dissipates almost as quick as it appears, but not without some damage. I think it would be good to see beauty in all the things that aggravate me, but as many who know me might say, it would be shorter to list the things that DON'T aggravate me...
Perhaps this is not a response to the original thread but more of a question / problem.. Maybe my first post to the list?!
Here is the post she will quote in a bit:
https://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2012/05/see-beauty-in_20.html
From: nacho katy <nachokaty@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Not junk / how's this group?
Date: August 14, 2018 at 10:09:02 PM MDT
To: Always Learning <[email protected]>
I admit I am guilty of mostly using my phone for email or browsing "whatever" it is; it's just more convenient and accessible. By the time I get around to my laptop, I'm not really into thinking about serious thoughts or ruminating unschooling ideas. BUT, today I used the randomizer for the first time on Just Add Light and Stir (AND, it *IS* much lovelier on a computer!), and I got this:
It's easy to see beauty in nature.
It's good to learn to see beauty in tables, cloth, air, spoons, socks, switches, handles, doorknobs, words, sounds, air, clouds, breeze, and ideas.
(from May 12, 2002)
Man, I want that ease to come into all problems. I have a tendency to be too quick to anger, well, anger is not exactly right, but irritation or aggravation / annoyance, whatever, which manifests itself as anger in the moment or at least appears as anger --a raised voice, unkind words that sort of thing. Which dissipates almost as quick as it appears, but not without some damage. I think it would be good to see beauty in all the things that aggravate me, but as many who know me might say, it would be shorter to list the things that DON'T aggravate me...
Perhaps this is not a response to the original thread but more of a question / problem.. Maybe my first post to the list?!
Sandra Dodd
-=-Man, I want that ease to come into all problems. I have a tendency to be too quick to anger, well, anger is not exactly right, but irritation or aggravation / annoyance, whatever, which manifests itself as anger in the moment or at least appears as anger --a raised voice, unkind words that sort of thing. Which dissipates almost as quick as it appears, but not without some damage. I think it would be good to see beauty in all the things that aggravate me, but as many who know me might say, it would be shorter to list the things that DON'T aggravate me…-=-
Raised voice and unkind words are pretty good indicators of anger.
I was that way when I was younger, and my daughter is in her 20’s, and that way. QUICKLY angry, then not angry.
-=- I think it would be good to see beauty in all the things that aggravate me, but as many who know me might say, it would be shorter to list the things that DON'T aggravate me…-=-
The quote you brought about seeing beauty wasn’t about seeing beauty in the things that aggravate you, but in finding more beauty, not waiting for intended beauty, formal-artistry, etc.
The photo on the post that inspired the quote above was of a farm machine I was unfamiliar with, and it looked pretty to me, all clean, in the sunshine, one day that Keith and I were driving from Albuquerque to Austin, to see Kirby when he was living there. https://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2012/05/see-beauty-in_20.html
Yesterday I made a video about something I’ve collected, when I was travelling. It kind of spoils the surprise to say what, but is it worth a surprise?
It is about finding beauty in normal things, and about being able to induce good memories. I think it can take practice, and desire. It comes gradually.
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2018/08/international-collection-of-mundane-tool.html
(there’s a photo that gives away the punch line, for the impatient and irritable among you, but the video is four minutes long, and you can see what I looked like yesterday)
I’m going to post two or three more responses in this topic. I invite others to, too, but the question about a tendency to negativiy and aggravation jumped right out at me.
Sandra
Raised voice and unkind words are pretty good indicators of anger.
I was that way when I was younger, and my daughter is in her 20’s, and that way. QUICKLY angry, then not angry.
-=- I think it would be good to see beauty in all the things that aggravate me, but as many who know me might say, it would be shorter to list the things that DON'T aggravate me…-=-
The quote you brought about seeing beauty wasn’t about seeing beauty in the things that aggravate you, but in finding more beauty, not waiting for intended beauty, formal-artistry, etc.
The photo on the post that inspired the quote above was of a farm machine I was unfamiliar with, and it looked pretty to me, all clean, in the sunshine, one day that Keith and I were driving from Albuquerque to Austin, to see Kirby when he was living there. https://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2012/05/see-beauty-in_20.html
Yesterday I made a video about something I’ve collected, when I was travelling. It kind of spoils the surprise to say what, but is it worth a surprise?
It is about finding beauty in normal things, and about being able to induce good memories. I think it can take practice, and desire. It comes gradually.
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2018/08/international-collection-of-mundane-tool.html
(there’s a photo that gives away the punch line, for the impatient and irritable among you, but the video is four minutes long, and you can see what I looked like yesterday)
I’m going to post two or three more responses in this topic. I invite others to, too, but the question about a tendency to negativiy and aggravation jumped right out at me.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
From: nacho katy :
--=-Man, I want that ease to come into all problems. I have a tendency to be too quick to anger, well, anger is not exactly right, but irritation or aggravation / annoyance, whatever, which manifests itself as anger in the moment or at least appears as anger --a raised voice, unkind words that sort of thing. Which dissipates almost as quick as it appears, but not without some damage. I think it would be good to see beauty in all the things that aggravate me, but as many who know me might say, it would be shorter to list the things that DON'T aggravate me…-=-
The day before yesterday I added yet another page to my site that ties in with negativity. I’ve been thinking of making an index page, but that would be a lot of negativity in one place. :-) Not really, but it might seem overwhelming to someone who wanted help to be cheerier.
And was I being negative, to point out the problems with false “support” or with cynicism? I feel more like I was out putting up warning signs and caution labels on things unschoolers can easily find, and might not see the harm in, in passing.
When someone is prone to anger and aggravation, and others say “You’re an awesome mom” and “your kids are lucky to have you” and such, she can relax and feel good without becoming less angry or finding ways to set aggravation aside, at least for a little while.
Here’s the new page:
http://sandradodd.com/support/generic
As to the aggravation that seems like anger, I propose that it’s indignation. And I read the coolest term no so long ago: “addicted to indignation”
It’s not only poetic and musical, but it seems to be sound and justifiable in terms of psychology / biochemistry.
_____________
ALERT: Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch. I have three links in one post. They’re all applicable and good, but it might be too much for someone with young children near by.
______________
People can acclimate themselves to negativity, so that it becomes comfortable and seems right to them. They can justify it, and it can make them feel attentive and intelligent.
Single people can frolic in that negativity. It might help them stay single forever, if no one else is very impressed with their prickliness, but they might find other cynics and pessimists to impress.
Parents of children who want to create a peaceful home so that learning and relationships can develop and grow in peace and warmth will need to make choices that lead them toward that, and away from the jittery, clanging, noisy world of indignation and outrage.
http://sandradodd.com/indignation
http://sandradodd.com/outrage
I’ve always liked the image of Donald Duck throwing a fit. Once in this discussion or a similar other one (Unschooling Discussion, maybe) I said that someone shouldn’t have gone "all Donald Duck” about something, and it pissed her off. I think she was already as pissed off as Donald Duck, but then she was glad to blame me for the continuance of it.
I think she wanted me to say “You are an awesome mom."
Sandra
--=-Man, I want that ease to come into all problems. I have a tendency to be too quick to anger, well, anger is not exactly right, but irritation or aggravation / annoyance, whatever, which manifests itself as anger in the moment or at least appears as anger --a raised voice, unkind words that sort of thing. Which dissipates almost as quick as it appears, but not without some damage. I think it would be good to see beauty in all the things that aggravate me, but as many who know me might say, it would be shorter to list the things that DON'T aggravate me…-=-
The day before yesterday I added yet another page to my site that ties in with negativity. I’ve been thinking of making an index page, but that would be a lot of negativity in one place. :-) Not really, but it might seem overwhelming to someone who wanted help to be cheerier.
And was I being negative, to point out the problems with false “support” or with cynicism? I feel more like I was out putting up warning signs and caution labels on things unschoolers can easily find, and might not see the harm in, in passing.
When someone is prone to anger and aggravation, and others say “You’re an awesome mom” and “your kids are lucky to have you” and such, she can relax and feel good without becoming less angry or finding ways to set aggravation aside, at least for a little while.
Here’s the new page:
http://sandradodd.com/support/generic
As to the aggravation that seems like anger, I propose that it’s indignation. And I read the coolest term no so long ago: “addicted to indignation”
It’s not only poetic and musical, but it seems to be sound and justifiable in terms of psychology / biochemistry.
_____________
ALERT: Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch. I have three links in one post. They’re all applicable and good, but it might be too much for someone with young children near by.
______________
People can acclimate themselves to negativity, so that it becomes comfortable and seems right to them. They can justify it, and it can make them feel attentive and intelligent.
Single people can frolic in that negativity. It might help them stay single forever, if no one else is very impressed with their prickliness, but they might find other cynics and pessimists to impress.
Parents of children who want to create a peaceful home so that learning and relationships can develop and grow in peace and warmth will need to make choices that lead them toward that, and away from the jittery, clanging, noisy world of indignation and outrage.
http://sandradodd.com/indignation
http://sandradodd.com/outrage
I’ve always liked the image of Donald Duck throwing a fit. Once in this discussion or a similar other one (Unschooling Discussion, maybe) I said that someone shouldn’t have gone "all Donald Duck” about something, and it pissed her off. I think she was already as pissed off as Donald Duck, but then she was glad to blame me for the continuance of it.
I think she wanted me to say “You are an awesome mom."
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
In the past week I’ve seen a couple of references to some new study or discussion about anger, saying that anger itself makes people feel that they’re smarter than they actually are.
This has links out to sources and other info:
https://www.bustle.com/p/being-angry-makes-you-think-youre-smarter-according-to-new-research-heres-what-you-can-do-about-it-10034076
The headline is wrong here. That’s not what the reporter was saying, nor what the study said.
Anger Stems From Thinking You're Smarter
A new study in the journal Intelligence says that when you are angry, you actually think you are smarter than you are (2:38). WCCO Mid-Morning - August 9, 2018
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/video/3914419-anger-stems-from-thinking-youre-smarter/
That’s two and a half minutes from a Minnesota newsroom crew, and it’s fairly cute and painless. :-)
It’s worth remembering that the energy that anger is built on accentuates a separation from other people, an us vs. them or a ME vs. YOU /them/every-damned-other-person
and none of that can be healthy.
Quickest dissipation for anger is breathing:
http://sandradodd.com/breathing
FOR NEW UNSCHOOLERS HERE, it might not seem like any of these links I’ve brought in this topic are “about unschooling,” but unschooling parents only have a year or two to become good unschooling parents, or they might end up missing on the opporunity to make unschooling work well in their family. And unschooling parents’ choices need to be between a more peaceful choice and a less peaceful choice, several times a day.
Sandra
This has links out to sources and other info:
https://www.bustle.com/p/being-angry-makes-you-think-youre-smarter-according-to-new-research-heres-what-you-can-do-about-it-10034076
The headline is wrong here. That’s not what the reporter was saying, nor what the study said.
Anger Stems From Thinking You're Smarter
A new study in the journal Intelligence says that when you are angry, you actually think you are smarter than you are (2:38). WCCO Mid-Morning - August 9, 2018
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/video/3914419-anger-stems-from-thinking-youre-smarter/
That’s two and a half minutes from a Minnesota newsroom crew, and it’s fairly cute and painless. :-)
It’s worth remembering that the energy that anger is built on accentuates a separation from other people, an us vs. them or a ME vs. YOU /them/every-damned-other-person
and none of that can be healthy.
Quickest dissipation for anger is breathing:
http://sandradodd.com/breathing
FOR NEW UNSCHOOLERS HERE, it might not seem like any of these links I’ve brought in this topic are “about unschooling,” but unschooling parents only have a year or two to become good unschooling parents, or they might end up missing on the opporunity to make unschooling work well in their family. And unschooling parents’ choices need to be between a more peaceful choice and a less peaceful choice, several times a day.
Sandra
tandos mama
I have a little story about socks that I think is, perhaps, appropriate to this conversation.
My husband leaves his socks on the floor, wherever he happens to remove them--though this has improved in a decade of marriage so that most socks find their resting place on the bedroom floor. The socks usually end up inside out and rolled into tight little balls.
My husband's feet have a tremendous potential for odor, so the sock balls are potent, so much so that occasionally the entire room takes on the odor of stinky socks. I was tempted to use more descriptive adjectives, but I think you can use your imagination.
The sock problem was a point of contention for a long time.
Then I changed. I'm not sure entirely what made this possible, but I stopped getting angry and complaining about the socks. I started picking up the socks, turning them right side out and washing them. While I did this I would think about how hard my husband works (probably why his feet get stinky), about what an amazing father he is, and how fortunate I am to be married to my best friend.
The sock situation got me thinking about a great many other things that are often irritating and found that in most cases I can find a perspective that suggests gratitude is my most appropriate response, rather than irritation or indignation.
The socks were life-changing.
Tori
Sandra Dodd
Tori wrote, about husband’s socks:
______________________
Then I changed. I'm not sure entirely what made this possible, but I stopped getting angry and complaining about the socks. I started picking up the socks, turning them right side out and washing them. While I did this I would think about how hard my husband works (probably why his feet get stinky), about what an amazing father he is, and how fortunate I am to be married to my best friend.
The sock situation got me thinking about a great many other things that are often irritating and found that in most cases I can find a perspective that suggests gratitude is my most appropriate response, rather than irritation or indignation.
_____________________
That was really nice, Tori.
It would be easy to find people who would become indignant about this report and say that you were wrong and being exploited and abused. Those people who say that are probably divorced, or in danger of being so, if they can’t do something as easy as picking up socks, out of love and appreciation.
My husband does all kinds of yucky things (things I don’t want to do, or can’t do) to make our house and yard and cars nicer.
Being less rigid about who is where and who does what can have very long-term benefits.
If a messy but regretful separation or divorce could be undone or repaired by picking up the other person’s dirty socks for a year, LOTS of people would be willing to do that. It would be much less expensive and lonely and hard on kids than maintaining two residences, and dealing with new love inerests (or the wish to have them) and all of that.
Sometimes there are horrible things that can’t be endured. The dirty socks of a dad who is working to support his family isn’t one of those life-ruining horrors.
Sandra
______________________
Then I changed. I'm not sure entirely what made this possible, but I stopped getting angry and complaining about the socks. I started picking up the socks, turning them right side out and washing them. While I did this I would think about how hard my husband works (probably why his feet get stinky), about what an amazing father he is, and how fortunate I am to be married to my best friend.
The sock situation got me thinking about a great many other things that are often irritating and found that in most cases I can find a perspective that suggests gratitude is my most appropriate response, rather than irritation or indignation.
_____________________
That was really nice, Tori.
It would be easy to find people who would become indignant about this report and say that you were wrong and being exploited and abused. Those people who say that are probably divorced, or in danger of being so, if they can’t do something as easy as picking up socks, out of love and appreciation.
My husband does all kinds of yucky things (things I don’t want to do, or can’t do) to make our house and yard and cars nicer.
Being less rigid about who is where and who does what can have very long-term benefits.
If a messy but regretful separation or divorce could be undone or repaired by picking up the other person’s dirty socks for a year, LOTS of people would be willing to do that. It would be much less expensive and lonely and hard on kids than maintaining two residences, and dealing with new love inerests (or the wish to have them) and all of that.
Sometimes there are horrible things that can’t be endured. The dirty socks of a dad who is working to support his family isn’t one of those life-ruining horrors.
Sandra
K Pennell
I really loved what Tori said and it reminds me of other things Sandra and others have posted. Sometimes, how we think about things makes a huge difference. I used to be SO annoyed by the things my husband didn't do (picking up his clothes off the bathroom floor, for example).
But I haven't done laundry in years. And I always have clean clothes for work. So how hard is it for me to put his clothes in the hamper for him?
It also strikes me, with this discussion about anger and negativity and indignation: lately I see SO much indignation everywhere I look, everywhere I go. It sometimes feels like everyone is angry, and no one is trying to listen to or understand anyone else. It isn't helpful, and it's stressful. But it's helpful to remind myself that home can still be peaceful. Here, we respect one another, love one another, help one another.
On Thursday, August 16, 2018 06:48:38 PM EDT, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
Tori wrote, about husband’s socks:
______________________
Then I changed. I'm not sure entirely what made this possible, but I stopped getting angry and complaining about the socks. I started picking up the socks, turning them right side out and washing them. While I did this I would think about how hard my husband works (probably why his feet get stinky), about what an amazing father he is, and how fortunate I am to be married to my best friend.
The sock situation got me thinking about a great many other things that are often irritating and found that in most cases I can find a perspective that suggests gratitude is my most appropriate response, rather than irritation or indignation.
_____________________
That was really nice, Tori.
It would be easy to find people who would become indignant about this report and say that you were wrong and being exploited and abused. Those people who say that are probably divorced, or in danger of being so, if they can’t do something as easy as picking up socks, out of love and appreciation.
My husband does all kinds of yucky things (things I don’t want to do, or can’t do) to make our house and yard and cars nicer.
Being less rigid about who is where and who does what can have very long-term benefits.
If a messy but regretful separation or divorce could be undone or repaired by picking up the other person’s dirty socks for a year, LOTS of people would be willing to do that. It would be much less expensive and lonely and hard on kids than maintaining two residences, and dealing with new love inerests (or the wish to have them) and all of that.
Sometimes there are horrible things that can’t be endured. The dirty socks of a dad who is working to support his family isn’t one of those life-ruining horrors.
Sandra
------------------------------------
Posted by: Sandra Dodd <sandra@...>
------------------------------------
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______________________
Then I changed. I'm not sure entirely what made this possible, but I stopped getting angry and complaining about the socks. I started picking up the socks, turning them right side out and washing them. While I did this I would think about how hard my husband works (probably why his feet get stinky), about what an amazing father he is, and how fortunate I am to be married to my best friend.
The sock situation got me thinking about a great many other things that are often irritating and found that in most cases I can find a perspective that suggests gratitude is my most appropriate response, rather than irritation or indignation.
_____________________
That was really nice, Tori.
It would be easy to find people who would become indignant about this report and say that you were wrong and being exploited and abused. Those people who say that are probably divorced, or in danger of being so, if they can’t do something as easy as picking up socks, out of love and appreciation.
My husband does all kinds of yucky things (things I don’t want to do, or can’t do) to make our house and yard and cars nicer.
Being less rigid about who is where and who does what can have very long-term benefits.
If a messy but regretful separation or divorce could be undone or repaired by picking up the other person’s dirty socks for a year, LOTS of people would be willing to do that. It would be much less expensive and lonely and hard on kids than maintaining two residences, and dealing with new love inerests (or the wish to have them) and all of that.
Sometimes there are horrible things that can’t be endured. The dirty socks of a dad who is working to support his family isn’t one of those life-ruining horrors.
Sandra
------------------------------------
Posted by: Sandra Dodd <sandra@...>
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
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lisajceledon@...
<<And was I being negative, to point out the problems with false “support” or with cynicism? I feel more like I was out putting up warning signs and caution labels on things unschoolers can easily find, and might not see the harm in, in passing.>>
I have often felt like this group was like a sort of metaphorical elephant herd, where mothers with lots of lived experience share their wisdom, like knowing where to find the best proverbial watering holes, lasting water sources in a drought, and exactly as this says above, pointing out things to be cautious or wary of, how to coexist with lions and rhinoceroses, relaxing about and embracing what is harmless--and better even--nutritious.
And not just that, in this group I've learned how to identify those things for myself, too, with practice and thoughtful guidance. I've learned how to discern what is harmless from what might be harmful, without someone always needing to tell me. I can make an analysis on my own and feel confident about it, without needing the actual presence of a "herd" to reassure me. (But I do like the virtual presence :) )
<<When someone is prone to anger and aggravation, and others say “You’re an awesome mom” and “your kids are lucky to have you” and such, she can relax and feel good without becoming less angry or finding ways to set aggravation aside, at least for a little while..
...
I think she wanted me to say “You are an awesome mom.">>
I think a lot of people initially are working with the idea that school=bad/damaging, therefore, unschooling=good/healthy, and they feel understandably threatened when someone doesn't affirm their presupposed categorical goodness. It exposes for a bit the uncomfortable truth of a working untruth.
It makes sense that people might start with that sort of dichotomy—it's a normal part of human cognitive development—and I hope to encourage more people, especially unschoolers, to keep going. School can be better for children than home in any number of variable circumstances, and unschooling parents can be even unknowingly neglectful and irresponsible, when their working assumption is that they and whatever they do or believe or practice is protected by the blanket of "unschooling" (or any other presupposed source of virtue, there are a few I can think of).
After unschooling for the past couple years, I have put my kids in school this year. My husband and I had a really rough year, medically, emotionally, morally (as in morale) and financially. Our living situation is a bit stressful for everyone, and my health and energy isn't nearly what it was a year ago. It has become important for me to better support my husband's well-being too by following through on his unspoken (still unspoken, he's much too nice to say it out loud) expectation that I would finish my degree and have some better job options. Also, the pressure on him from his family about our kids homeschooling has really taken a toll on him (and me), and them being in school makes it a non-issue, and gives my husband what he needs to be able to assertively end the discussion with them.
Not just for my husband, but for me as well. A large part of my decision was based on the fact that my own medical/mental health has made me more tired and irritable, less patient, less creative, less flexible, than I have been--even with so many tools for mindfulness and peace--and I've become more honestly aware of how stretched thin I'd been. And while my kids have still been learning a lot, we've done lots of fun things, our home life hasn't been nearly as fun, nurturing, and peaceful as I feel good about. But I still think there are a lot of people who would say I have been an "awesome mom," no matter what.
I'm grateful that I'm capable of assessing our situation honestly and recognizing where I'm falling short of what would justify keeping my kids at home, and that my sense of the sort of mother I am is solid all in itself, without needing reassurance that I am doing a great job. I know I'm doing less than a great job, most of the time, by my own reliable standards, and that is *good* to know, for many reasons. One of them being that it keeps me focused toward getting better. I pay attention to where I am now, and keep in my mind where I want to go. Knowing where I am, being present where I am, helps me accept who I am, who I have been, what it is I am facing personally. That helps me be a better mom than I would be if I were wallowing in, "I'm a terrible mom, please someone tell me I'm doing awesome, give me some encouragement." I am encouraged very honestly and sincerely by a wide-eyed view of how far I've come, and that keeps me moving.
That comes from years of practicing good principles, not just "unschooling:" but practicing honesty, clarity of thought, intention and priorities, integrity, respect for myself and for others, courtesy, protecting my children from harm, kindness, being of service, as well as developing a solid internal guidance system. I can trust my insecurities, because they are balanced now with soundness of mind. I have felt my own inner peace and self esteem about my choices often enough that I can always come home to it. They don't come from a sort of forced "I must be enlightened and experience inner peace" sort of muffling, but from a willingness to fearlessly sit with and examine turmoil and be patient until it resolves with more clarity.
I was able to grieve, feel all the intense feelings of sadness and loss and anger and it's-not-fair, at the same time that I had a calm sense of having options and confidence that school was the best choice for now, the one that gives my family, my team, the best prospects moving forward. I do hope it is temporary, and that taking the time now to attend to issues will set us up to have more options in a year or two.
I do have a lot of friends who would have continued to encourage me to keep the kids home, no matter the pressure on all of us (even easier to find people who would say, to heck with your husband!). I've had "unschooling at all costs" friends. I've had a friend who said she felt that unschooling was THE loving choice, and anything less than that, when a parent knew unschooling was an option, was evidence of that parent not loving their kids as much as she loved hers.
In my experience, being able to really look into your child's eyes, seeing them for who they are, recognizing their dignity and worth, can rub in raw places. How raw and how badly it rubs would depend on your history. That can be part of healing old childhood wounds, and maybe good therapy or someone to talk with (Amy Childs is an awesome resource!!!!) is all that parent needs, but it's also worth recognizing when that rawness needs more attention. I think it's possible parents might find ways of numbing that sort of rawness--instead of healing it-- that could compromise their ability to see themselves and their children as integrous, whole people, which in turn could compromise their unschooling, and their children's safety. Maybe not very likely, or something many people would need to think much about, but if you know you have some big issues from childhood, it might be worth paying attention to, and this group offers more in terms of clarity and solid, impersonal analysis than any other I've experienced.
Using this group to help examine where and why a parent's irritation is getting repeatedly ruffled with their child could be an invaluable sort of free cognitive behavioral therapy.
The way I see so many people leaning into "unschooling" as a promise or a guarantee that they can do their children no (or not much) harm, as long as they keep doing their unschooling awesomest, the more concerned I get.
In my son's kindergarten class there is a child with two parents who were really anxious about her (invisible to me) disabilities and sensitivities, and the first day was clearly very fretful and difficult for them—the parents—but I had the opportunity to observe the child when they were gone, and she seemed to do *much* better away from them and all their anxiety. Their anxiety and inability to manage it might well be the actual source of her "disabilities."
I might have *been* them three or four years ago, with my then-youngest child. I have done a *lot* of intentional work, because peace and well-being for learning were priorities for me, to sort through my fears and anxieties and put the useless ones to rest.
I have known children with similar parents with similar concerns and beliefs, and those children were stuck at home, without the chance to thrive and relax elsewhere in the presence of other less anxious people--OR maybe even to just be at school with people who saw them just as broken, but were less personal and attached about it.
It's easy to explain putting a child in school: the cultural assumption is that it IS the responsible thing to do, and a parent should be very confident they could impress anyone who came to their door with an honest description of what they're doing at home and how they're parenting, instead of school, if they are going to keep their kid(s) home. "Anything is better than school" isn't true, and won't work with any kind of authority figure who might have the legal right to investigate. And even states/countries with currently lenient rules about homeschooling might not stay that way.
It might be worth considering that if the child is at school, the parent can have a break, let other people be either sweet, or grumpy, with them, and the parent can be refreshed and ready to be sweet and engaged and practice partnering with them when they get home. The child and the parent get a better experience of parenting.
And hopefully, an honest evaluation of that possibility can lead a parent to get the help they need, if they need it, and to make the necessary mental or internal adjustments, to keep their child happily and peacefully at home. :)
Lisa Celedon
I have often felt like this group was like a sort of metaphorical elephant herd, where mothers with lots of lived experience share their wisdom, like knowing where to find the best proverbial watering holes, lasting water sources in a drought, and exactly as this says above, pointing out things to be cautious or wary of, how to coexist with lions and rhinoceroses, relaxing about and embracing what is harmless--and better even--nutritious.
And not just that, in this group I've learned how to identify those things for myself, too, with practice and thoughtful guidance. I've learned how to discern what is harmless from what might be harmful, without someone always needing to tell me. I can make an analysis on my own and feel confident about it, without needing the actual presence of a "herd" to reassure me. (But I do like the virtual presence :) )
<<When someone is prone to anger and aggravation, and others say “You’re an awesome mom” and “your kids are lucky to have you” and such, she can relax and feel good without becoming less angry or finding ways to set aggravation aside, at least for a little while..
...
I think she wanted me to say “You are an awesome mom.">>
I think a lot of people initially are working with the idea that school=bad/damaging, therefore, unschooling=good/healthy, and they feel understandably threatened when someone doesn't affirm their presupposed categorical goodness. It exposes for a bit the uncomfortable truth of a working untruth.
It makes sense that people might start with that sort of dichotomy—it's a normal part of human cognitive development—and I hope to encourage more people, especially unschoolers, to keep going. School can be better for children than home in any number of variable circumstances, and unschooling parents can be even unknowingly neglectful and irresponsible, when their working assumption is that they and whatever they do or believe or practice is protected by the blanket of "unschooling" (or any other presupposed source of virtue, there are a few I can think of).
After unschooling for the past couple years, I have put my kids in school this year. My husband and I had a really rough year, medically, emotionally, morally (as in morale) and financially. Our living situation is a bit stressful for everyone, and my health and energy isn't nearly what it was a year ago. It has become important for me to better support my husband's well-being too by following through on his unspoken (still unspoken, he's much too nice to say it out loud) expectation that I would finish my degree and have some better job options. Also, the pressure on him from his family about our kids homeschooling has really taken a toll on him (and me), and them being in school makes it a non-issue, and gives my husband what he needs to be able to assertively end the discussion with them.
Not just for my husband, but for me as well. A large part of my decision was based on the fact that my own medical/mental health has made me more tired and irritable, less patient, less creative, less flexible, than I have been--even with so many tools for mindfulness and peace--and I've become more honestly aware of how stretched thin I'd been. And while my kids have still been learning a lot, we've done lots of fun things, our home life hasn't been nearly as fun, nurturing, and peaceful as I feel good about. But I still think there are a lot of people who would say I have been an "awesome mom," no matter what.
I'm grateful that I'm capable of assessing our situation honestly and recognizing where I'm falling short of what would justify keeping my kids at home, and that my sense of the sort of mother I am is solid all in itself, without needing reassurance that I am doing a great job. I know I'm doing less than a great job, most of the time, by my own reliable standards, and that is *good* to know, for many reasons. One of them being that it keeps me focused toward getting better. I pay attention to where I am now, and keep in my mind where I want to go. Knowing where I am, being present where I am, helps me accept who I am, who I have been, what it is I am facing personally. That helps me be a better mom than I would be if I were wallowing in, "I'm a terrible mom, please someone tell me I'm doing awesome, give me some encouragement." I am encouraged very honestly and sincerely by a wide-eyed view of how far I've come, and that keeps me moving.
That comes from years of practicing good principles, not just "unschooling:" but practicing honesty, clarity of thought, intention and priorities, integrity, respect for myself and for others, courtesy, protecting my children from harm, kindness, being of service, as well as developing a solid internal guidance system. I can trust my insecurities, because they are balanced now with soundness of mind. I have felt my own inner peace and self esteem about my choices often enough that I can always come home to it. They don't come from a sort of forced "I must be enlightened and experience inner peace" sort of muffling, but from a willingness to fearlessly sit with and examine turmoil and be patient until it resolves with more clarity.
I was able to grieve, feel all the intense feelings of sadness and loss and anger and it's-not-fair, at the same time that I had a calm sense of having options and confidence that school was the best choice for now, the one that gives my family, my team, the best prospects moving forward. I do hope it is temporary, and that taking the time now to attend to issues will set us up to have more options in a year or two.
I do have a lot of friends who would have continued to encourage me to keep the kids home, no matter the pressure on all of us (even easier to find people who would say, to heck with your husband!). I've had "unschooling at all costs" friends. I've had a friend who said she felt that unschooling was THE loving choice, and anything less than that, when a parent knew unschooling was an option, was evidence of that parent not loving their kids as much as she loved hers.
In my experience, being able to really look into your child's eyes, seeing them for who they are, recognizing their dignity and worth, can rub in raw places. How raw and how badly it rubs would depend on your history. That can be part of healing old childhood wounds, and maybe good therapy or someone to talk with (Amy Childs is an awesome resource!!!!) is all that parent needs, but it's also worth recognizing when that rawness needs more attention. I think it's possible parents might find ways of numbing that sort of rawness--instead of healing it-- that could compromise their ability to see themselves and their children as integrous, whole people, which in turn could compromise their unschooling, and their children's safety. Maybe not very likely, or something many people would need to think much about, but if you know you have some big issues from childhood, it might be worth paying attention to, and this group offers more in terms of clarity and solid, impersonal analysis than any other I've experienced.
Using this group to help examine where and why a parent's irritation is getting repeatedly ruffled with their child could be an invaluable sort of free cognitive behavioral therapy.
The way I see so many people leaning into "unschooling" as a promise or a guarantee that they can do their children no (or not much) harm, as long as they keep doing their unschooling awesomest, the more concerned I get.
In my son's kindergarten class there is a child with two parents who were really anxious about her (invisible to me) disabilities and sensitivities, and the first day was clearly very fretful and difficult for them—the parents—but I had the opportunity to observe the child when they were gone, and she seemed to do *much* better away from them and all their anxiety. Their anxiety and inability to manage it might well be the actual source of her "disabilities."
I might have *been* them three or four years ago, with my then-youngest child. I have done a *lot* of intentional work, because peace and well-being for learning were priorities for me, to sort through my fears and anxieties and put the useless ones to rest.
I have known children with similar parents with similar concerns and beliefs, and those children were stuck at home, without the chance to thrive and relax elsewhere in the presence of other less anxious people--OR maybe even to just be at school with people who saw them just as broken, but were less personal and attached about it.
It's easy to explain putting a child in school: the cultural assumption is that it IS the responsible thing to do, and a parent should be very confident they could impress anyone who came to their door with an honest description of what they're doing at home and how they're parenting, instead of school, if they are going to keep their kid(s) home. "Anything is better than school" isn't true, and won't work with any kind of authority figure who might have the legal right to investigate. And even states/countries with currently lenient rules about homeschooling might not stay that way.
It might be worth considering that if the child is at school, the parent can have a break, let other people be either sweet, or grumpy, with them, and the parent can be refreshed and ready to be sweet and engaged and practice partnering with them when they get home. The child and the parent get a better experience of parenting.
And hopefully, an honest evaluation of that possibility can lead a parent to get the help they need, if they need it, and to make the necessary mental or internal adjustments, to keep their child happily and peacefully at home. :)
Lisa Celedon
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<>”It might be worth considering that if the child is at school, the parent can have a break, let other people be either sweet, or grumpy, with them, and the parent can be refreshed and ready to be sweet and engaged and practice partnering with them when they get home. The child and the parent get a better experience of parenting. “>>>>>
Or maybe the child will have a few patient and calM adults that are no easy to anger and take the time to be sweet and help them without being grumpy.
If a parent is not willing or able to learn to be calm, gentle and kind going to school is probably better than unschooling.
I have worked hard on learning to breath and change my voice tone. My kids call me out if I am losing it sometimes but I am so so so much more mellow.
Stop, breath as long as you need, think about your reaction. Be mindful or else you are being thoughtless and just reacting.
I think that learning that and learning to change the words in your head or when you speak to kinder , gentler words, really stopping to think what you are going to say and how you are going to react and respond , the best part of my journey as an unschooling parent.
It changes lives.
Yes I can’t unschoolers well any other way in my opinion.
Alex
Or maybe the child will have a few patient and calM adults that are no easy to anger and take the time to be sweet and help them without being grumpy.
If a parent is not willing or able to learn to be calm, gentle and kind going to school is probably better than unschooling.
I have worked hard on learning to breath and change my voice tone. My kids call me out if I am losing it sometimes but I am so so so much more mellow.
Stop, breath as long as you need, think about your reaction. Be mindful or else you are being thoughtless and just reacting.
I think that learning that and learning to change the words in your head or when you speak to kinder , gentler words, really stopping to think what you are going to say and how you are going to react and respond , the best part of my journey as an unschooling parent.
It changes lives.
Yes I can’t unschoolers well any other way in my opinion.
Alex
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
This made no sense:
“Yes I can’t unschoolers well any other way in my opinion.”
I don’t think one can Unschool well if they can’t or won’t learn to become more mindful, thoughtful, kind , gentle, positive and joyful.
Alex
“Yes I can’t unschoolers well any other way in my opinion.”
I don’t think one can Unschool well if they can’t or won’t learn to become more mindful, thoughtful, kind , gentle, positive and joyful.
Alex
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have felt my own inner peace and self esteem about my choices often enough that I can always come home to it. -=-
There’s another thing about school, used by a family whose unschooling went well, and who might be able to get back to unschooling—it can be more like a camp, a daycare center, a social club. When the parents aren’t wholly invested in SCHOOL as a goal, as a path, as a child’s “job,” there are doors and windows that other kids in school might not feel are open. That family won’t be as likely to pressure or invest their energy and hopes and dreams in how a child does in 3rd grade; they will know (kids and parents all) that learning doesn’t below to schools.
-=-I've had "unschooling at all costs" friends. I've had a friend who said she felt that unschooling was THE loving choice, and anything less than that, when a parent knew unschooling was an option, was evidence of that parent not loving their kids as much as she loved hers. -=-
I’ve known some unschoolers like that too. Unschooling becomes a badge, an identity.
I’ve also known some unschoolers who talked about unschooling, socialized with other unschoolers, went to conferences, bought unschooling t-shirts, but hadn’t quite fully really unschooled as full-on as they could have if they would look more at their kids and less at their gloriously unschooling selves.
Sandra
There’s another thing about school, used by a family whose unschooling went well, and who might be able to get back to unschooling—it can be more like a camp, a daycare center, a social club. When the parents aren’t wholly invested in SCHOOL as a goal, as a path, as a child’s “job,” there are doors and windows that other kids in school might not feel are open. That family won’t be as likely to pressure or invest their energy and hopes and dreams in how a child does in 3rd grade; they will know (kids and parents all) that learning doesn’t below to schools.
-=-I've had "unschooling at all costs" friends. I've had a friend who said she felt that unschooling was THE loving choice, and anything less than that, when a parent knew unschooling was an option, was evidence of that parent not loving their kids as much as she loved hers. -=-
I’ve known some unschoolers like that too. Unschooling becomes a badge, an identity.
I’ve also known some unschoolers who talked about unschooling, socialized with other unschoolers, went to conferences, bought unschooling t-shirts, but hadn’t quite fully really unschooled as full-on as they could have if they would look more at their kids and less at their gloriously unschooling selves.
Sandra
lisajceledon@...
<<That family won’t be as likely to pressure or invest their energy and hopes and dreams in how a child does in 3rd grade>>
My son Josh (8) was talking the other day about how one event changes the future, sort of sounding anxiously cheerful about how hard things we went through recently led to good things, and he talked about the future as two paths, and a change meaning the path is switched. We had been talking about his teacher telling him he needed to get "happy faces" every day, and I had made a deal that I'd divert money from our tax return toward saving for a VR system for every happy face he could get.
Then I said, the future isn't just two paths, though, it's lots and lots, less like paths, more like big fields and landscapes of possibilities, and he got cheerful again, picking that idea up, and the way minecraft worlds are infinite.
It's been good that even though going to school isn't a choice, he has choices about how he spends his time there. I don't have to partner with the school in punishing him at home, a rough time at school can end when he leaves.
They're sort of lame choices, in his mind, but I'm glad to have a lot of practice partnering with him, and am not just like, "I don't care what you do at school." I want to help him get along as painlessly as he can.
The work isn't important to me, he knows that, we've talked about why the kids have to learn to write and read in school, it's a practical thing for the teachers, and it won't matter in the long run when he learns those things, and whether or not it happens this year.
But I've also suggested he try seeing if time passes faster if he does the work the teacher gives him, and keep encouraging him to see the positives, like seeing new kids and having new, different things to do nearly everyday (he was missing friends we dont see often anymore, and bored a lot at home). Most of his time is still spent at home.
And my middle child, who my in laws have been most worried about, is getting along really well in his class. The teacher is cool, and told the parents to keep things like how to do math problems the way they learned how "a secret," as a way of encouraging parents to let the kids discover more of how numbers work without that yet. He also told parents not to worry if their kids can't read by the end of the year, they won't be "behind" and not all kids learn to read at the same time. That was nice.
Thanks for all the years of help and encouragement and good, thought-provoking discussion. The level of critical analysis in this discussion and always learning is more sophisticated, clear, and useful than the critical analysis in my graduate level literature classes. :) They've really helped me be a better parent and person.
On my hardest day back in spring, the lowest low point in my morale, I came out of feeling sad and sorry for myself and defeated, remembering suddenly Josh had wanted to bounce a ball down stairs (had been upset about where we live and its limits), and getting up, getting a ball, and taking Josh outside to a set of stairs. We played for awhile, both of us got to laughing hard. The next day we went to a playground with bleachers and played it again. He'd been upset we had no yard and no garden, we started a container garden. And each day, bit by bit, my days got better.
I'd had so much practice thinking about what I could do to meet my family's needs, that it's become a natural part of how my mind works now. Even at what felt like the bottom of a deep pit, I could think of it as a wishing well instead, and I was there picking up the coins and seeing what I could do about them as I worked my way back up.
Alex said this stuff is life changing. It really is.
Lisa Celedon
My son Josh (8) was talking the other day about how one event changes the future, sort of sounding anxiously cheerful about how hard things we went through recently led to good things, and he talked about the future as two paths, and a change meaning the path is switched. We had been talking about his teacher telling him he needed to get "happy faces" every day, and I had made a deal that I'd divert money from our tax return toward saving for a VR system for every happy face he could get.
Then I said, the future isn't just two paths, though, it's lots and lots, less like paths, more like big fields and landscapes of possibilities, and he got cheerful again, picking that idea up, and the way minecraft worlds are infinite.
It's been good that even though going to school isn't a choice, he has choices about how he spends his time there. I don't have to partner with the school in punishing him at home, a rough time at school can end when he leaves.
They're sort of lame choices, in his mind, but I'm glad to have a lot of practice partnering with him, and am not just like, "I don't care what you do at school." I want to help him get along as painlessly as he can.
The work isn't important to me, he knows that, we've talked about why the kids have to learn to write and read in school, it's a practical thing for the teachers, and it won't matter in the long run when he learns those things, and whether or not it happens this year.
But I've also suggested he try seeing if time passes faster if he does the work the teacher gives him, and keep encouraging him to see the positives, like seeing new kids and having new, different things to do nearly everyday (he was missing friends we dont see often anymore, and bored a lot at home). Most of his time is still spent at home.
And my middle child, who my in laws have been most worried about, is getting along really well in his class. The teacher is cool, and told the parents to keep things like how to do math problems the way they learned how "a secret," as a way of encouraging parents to let the kids discover more of how numbers work without that yet. He also told parents not to worry if their kids can't read by the end of the year, they won't be "behind" and not all kids learn to read at the same time. That was nice.
Thanks for all the years of help and encouragement and good, thought-provoking discussion. The level of critical analysis in this discussion and always learning is more sophisticated, clear, and useful than the critical analysis in my graduate level literature classes. :) They've really helped me be a better parent and person.
On my hardest day back in spring, the lowest low point in my morale, I came out of feeling sad and sorry for myself and defeated, remembering suddenly Josh had wanted to bounce a ball down stairs (had been upset about where we live and its limits), and getting up, getting a ball, and taking Josh outside to a set of stairs. We played for awhile, both of us got to laughing hard. The next day we went to a playground with bleachers and played it again. He'd been upset we had no yard and no garden, we started a container garden. And each day, bit by bit, my days got better.
I'd had so much practice thinking about what I could do to meet my family's needs, that it's become a natural part of how my mind works now. Even at what felt like the bottom of a deep pit, I could think of it as a wishing well instead, and I was there picking up the coins and seeing what I could do about them as I worked my way back up.
Alex said this stuff is life changing. It really is.
Lisa Celedon
lisajceledon@...
<<in this discussion and always learning >>
I meant this one and Radical Unschooling Info on fb. :)
I meant this one and Radical Unschooling Info on fb. :)
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'd had so much practice thinking about what I could do to meet my family's needs, that it's become a natural part of how my mind works now. Even at what felt like the bottom of a deep pit, I could think of it as a wishing well instead, and I was there picking up the coins and seeing what I could do about them as I worked my way back up.-=-
That’s beautiful, Lisa, even though it seems suspiciously to indicate a history of video-game play.
:-)
-=-Alex said this stuff is life changing. It really is.-=-
For some it is. But it’s like picking up coins and seeing what can be done with them.
Some people come here to be told there’s nothing to it, unschooling is simple and they can learn it in a week, or that they’re already unschoolers just by virtue of having joined this group. If their writing or thoughts are challenged they might leave in a huff, or spit some venom on the way out.
Different people learn different things from the same experience, or input. Same as kids, same old realities of learning. :-)
Sandra
That’s beautiful, Lisa, even though it seems suspiciously to indicate a history of video-game play.
:-)
-=-Alex said this stuff is life changing. It really is.-=-
For some it is. But it’s like picking up coins and seeing what can be done with them.
Some people come here to be told there’s nothing to it, unschooling is simple and they can learn it in a week, or that they’re already unschoolers just by virtue of having joined this group. If their writing or thoughts are challenged they might leave in a huff, or spit some venom on the way out.
Different people learn different things from the same experience, or input. Same as kids, same old realities of learning. :-)
Sandra