Opinions and politeness
amberuby@...
So my mother asked me for ideas on how she could get along with me better, and I told her to keep her opinions to herself unless asked, especially in cases where she disagrees with me. She replied, "oh, what, nobody can disagree with you?" And I tried to explain that she can disagree, but keep it to herself. I gave her an example.
Asking for an opinion-
Me: Mom, which rug should I get, purple or yellow?
Mom: Purple, it'll hide the dirt.
~or~
Not asking for an opinion-
Me: Mom, I got a yellow rug!
Mom (option 1): I wouldn't have picked that color, it will show all the dirt.
Mom (option 2): Yellow will brighten that room nicely!
I asked her which response option sounded nicer. She said the second, but that it means lying. I told her that it means looking for the positive, polite response.
She then said she didn't understand how it is okay for her to "lie" to me this way, but it is not okay to lie to my daughter.
So I think her line of reasoning is flawed - being polite is not the same as lying, right?
And am I wrong in thinking that withholding one's unsolicited opinion is often the polite and preferable response?
Sandra Dodd
I’m sorry I didn’t see this post in the queue. I hope it’s not too late for ideas.
-=-Not asking for an opinion-
Me: Mom, I got a yellow rug!
Mom (option 1): I wouldn't have picked that color, it will show all the dirt.
Mom (option 2): Yellow will brighten that room nicely!-=-
It sounds like you want to control your mom.
Do you live with her?
If you live with her, conversations will happen, and it’s possible that the color of rug is her business.
If you don’t live with her, it might be easier for you, and better for the relationship, for you not to start conversations that aren’t important enough to argue about. That probably sounds weird and backwards, but it her opinion about a rug that is already purchased doesn’t matter and isn’t wanted, don’t mention the run.
-=-And am I wrong in thinking that withholding one's unsolicited opinion is often the polite and preferable response? -=-
It is. So couldn’t you not ague if she says something you don’t like? :-)
Sandra
-=-Not asking for an opinion-
Me: Mom, I got a yellow rug!
Mom (option 1): I wouldn't have picked that color, it will show all the dirt.
Mom (option 2): Yellow will brighten that room nicely!-=-
It sounds like you want to control your mom.
Do you live with her?
If you live with her, conversations will happen, and it’s possible that the color of rug is her business.
If you don’t live with her, it might be easier for you, and better for the relationship, for you not to start conversations that aren’t important enough to argue about. That probably sounds weird and backwards, but it her opinion about a rug that is already purchased doesn’t matter and isn’t wanted, don’t mention the run.
-=-And am I wrong in thinking that withholding one's unsolicited opinion is often the polite and preferable response? -=-
It is. So couldn’t you not ague if she says something you don’t like? :-)
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
I don't think we can control other people. Personally, I often choose to smile and ignore or let comments like this wash over me. That's her opinion, I have mine. No problem. I hear unsolicited advice all the time, and it rarely gets to me because I choose to look past this and value other parts of my relationship with the person.
Your relations with your children are different. Lying is different. Ideas of being polite can vary. What you'd appreciate and what she is capable of offering might not be the same. Try to understand she thinks she is being helpful, involved, but ultimately you are happy with the yellow rug in your home, the mess, whatever.
With casual acquaintances, I might limit contact if it feels too negative but with people I otherwise love and value, it is easier change my own outlook than trying to change or coerce them. Look for the positive, eschew whatever you can that is minor and process it with less hurt attached.
So my mother asked me for ideas on how she could get along with me better, and I told her to keep her opinions to herself unless asked, especially in cases where she disagrees with me. She replied, "oh, what, nobody can disagree with you?" And I tried to explain that she can disagree, but keep it to herself. I gave her an example.
Asking for an opinion-
Me: Mom, which rug should I get, purple or yellow?
Mom: Purple, it'll hide the dirt.
~or~
Not asking for an opinion-
Me: Mom, I got a yellow rug!
Mom (option 1): I wouldn't have picked that color, it will show all the dirt.
Mom (option 2): Yellow will brighten that room nicely!
I asked her which response option sounded nicer. She said the second, but that it means lying. I told her that it means looking for the positive, polite response.
She then said she didn't understand how it is okay for her to "lie" to me this way, but it is not okay to lie to my daughter.
So I think her line of reasoning is flawed - being polite is not the same as lying, right?
And am I wrong in thinking that withholding one's unsolicited opinion is often the polite and preferable response?
Sandra Dodd
-=- I hear unsolicited advice all the time, and it rarely gets to me because I choose to look past this and value other parts of my relationship with the person. -=-
When friends used to say things about unschooling, depending on the friend and my mood and what they said, sometimes I just said “We did think about that,” and smiled, or “Thanks; I’ll think about that.” Or sometimes I’d say “If that comes up, we’ll change what we’re doing, I’m sure” (things like that). It’s nicer to listen and know that they liked my kids and were kinda worried than to rise up and kill the friendship over something that really WAS something I had thought about, or should.
About a yellow rug, I might’ve said “Ah, good point,” or “The rug might wear out before it gets dirty” or “It’s two-sided and washable!” and smile. Or “Ah… next time maybe I’ll get a darker one, if this doesn’t work out.”
-=-Look for the positive, eschew whatever you can that is minor and process it with less hurt attached.-=-
Some relationships are harder than others, for all kinds of reasons, and usually a dozen or more at the same time. :-)
History, personalities, intentions (perceived or actual) all are in play. Part of growing up and becoming a parent is becoming an adult who accepts the serious responsibilities, and who can stand strong (in some ways) against danger. Sometimes the instincts involved in that cause us, without realizing, to identify things as dangers that aren’t and don’t need to be considered dangers. So the principles that will help us keep our kids safe should be carefully sorted out and examined (gradually, as time goes by) in such a way that we’re protecting our children’s peace and opportunities without limiting them too much.
Don’t separate them from their other relatives if you can peacefully avoid it. And if you can’t have certain people in your everyday life, make the separation subtle if you can, and not dramatic, which is scary and peace-disturbing in itself.
Sandra
When friends used to say things about unschooling, depending on the friend and my mood and what they said, sometimes I just said “We did think about that,” and smiled, or “Thanks; I’ll think about that.” Or sometimes I’d say “If that comes up, we’ll change what we’re doing, I’m sure” (things like that). It’s nicer to listen and know that they liked my kids and were kinda worried than to rise up and kill the friendship over something that really WAS something I had thought about, or should.
About a yellow rug, I might’ve said “Ah, good point,” or “The rug might wear out before it gets dirty” or “It’s two-sided and washable!” and smile. Or “Ah… next time maybe I’ll get a darker one, if this doesn’t work out.”
-=-Look for the positive, eschew whatever you can that is minor and process it with less hurt attached.-=-
Some relationships are harder than others, for all kinds of reasons, and usually a dozen or more at the same time. :-)
History, personalities, intentions (perceived or actual) all are in play. Part of growing up and becoming a parent is becoming an adult who accepts the serious responsibilities, and who can stand strong (in some ways) against danger. Sometimes the instincts involved in that cause us, without realizing, to identify things as dangers that aren’t and don’t need to be considered dangers. So the principles that will help us keep our kids safe should be carefully sorted out and examined (gradually, as time goes by) in such a way that we’re protecting our children’s peace and opportunities without limiting them too much.
Don’t separate them from their other relatives if you can peacefully avoid it. And if you can’t have certain people in your everyday life, make the separation subtle if you can, and not dramatic, which is scary and peace-disturbing in itself.
Sandra
K Pennell
I read a book years ago, I think it was called Irregular People. It reminded me of my grandmother.
I love her dearly, but she does have a tendency to say what she thinks, whether I've asked her opinion or not.
"Your future father-in-law is an opinionated windbag."
"Don't you have something to pull your hair back. It looks awful."
"Have you gained weight?"
I generally just try to smile and ignore. I DO think that if she didn't do that, she would be closer to people, but I think at this point she isn't going to change. If she said these rude things to my kids, I'd run interference, or not bring the kids to see her anymore. But interestingly, with very few exceptions, she doesn't do that with them.
From: "amberuby@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2017 2:24 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Opinions and politeness
So my mother asked me for ideas on how she could get along with me better, and I told her to keep her opinions to herself unless asked, especially in cases where she disagrees with me. She replied, "oh, what, nobody can disagree with you?" And I tried to explain that she can disagree, but keep it to herself. I gave her an example.
Asking for an opinion-
Me: Mom, which rug should I get, purple or yellow?
Mom: Purple, it'll hide the dirt.
~or~
Not asking for an opinion-
Me: Mom, I got a yellow rug!
Mom (option 1): I wouldn't have picked that color, it will show all the dirt.
Mom (option 2): Yellow will brighten that room nicely!
I asked her which response option sounded nicer. She said the second, but that it means lying. I told her that it means looking for the positive, polite response.
She then said she didn't understand how it is okay for her to "lie" to me this way, but it is not okay to lie to my daughter.
So I think her line of reasoning is flawed - being polite is not the same as lying, right?
And am I wrong in thinking that withholding one's unsolicited opinion is often the polite and preferable response?
amberuby@...
Thank you Sandra, and others. It's not technically too late, although I am currently still not talking to my mother. Mostly I've been mulling over things and thinking of writing to her rather than trying to get my message out over the phone (no, we do not live together, but she is thinking of spending the summer months living nearer to us).
This exchange about politeness and lying came about after a disagreement over what my daughter eats. It's a long story with my mom making false equivalencies between raisin bread and alcohol, but in the end I noticed that my mother and stepfather's comments about my daughter's diet had affected me. I became controlling for a few hours, and then came back to some unschooling resources, and worked through it. This prompted me to tell my mother about the effect their comments had on me, and how I worked through it, and, well, it's definitely not something that I can talk to her about with good results (duly noted).
As I have been thinking on my own since writing this question, talking through it with my husband and another friend, I did come to see that the biggest thing I can do is control myself. I kept thinking about how even if she DID want to try to stop giving me her advice, she would probably slip up, and I would still be making a choice on how to respond to that.
Some ideas I came up with to help me not get pushed into a defensive reactive position were:
-Don't take her phone calls the moment she calls - call her back when I'm ready instead
-Try calling her back on a weekend morning (a time when she's probably not drinking wine)
-Do some mindful breathing before calling her back - think about my goal of keeping the peace
-Have a few more of those handy responses to use - i.e. "we're going to try this for a while and see"
When I began reading about unschooling, I was in a much worse place with my relationship with my mother, based on my memories of my childhood. After talking to more family members and understanding more of my family history, I began to have a greater appreciation for why my mom made some of the difficult choices that she did. This has helped me to relax, and so has lots of unschooling advice.
This negative exchange occurred over the phone, after having a very pleasant holiday weekend with both my mother and mother-in-law staying at our house. Perhaps the politeness issue was a bit more on my mind because my mother-in-law happens to be extremely polite and doesn't voice anything about her opinions over our choices, other than to say that she has seen how lots of parenting choices often pan out to be just fine in the end.
But, I can see some real benefits that my own mother brings to grandmothering. Unlike my mother-in-law, my own mother is much better at playing. She loves to play games, and will often get on the floor and play with my daughter, interact with her, watch her shows or movies, or even play video games. My mother has also asked to read some of the parenting books and unschooling books that I own, so it's good for me to remember that she has been/can be open minded and supportive. I can guess that her fears over food are based largely on her own failing health.
In considering how my mom is treating me, I've also been reflecting on how I would treat my own child. I'm looking for more ideas in the archives about teenagers, because I sense that the teenage years are when kids are mostly likely to want to do things that might be scary for parents, and I'm sure I can use some ideas on how to respond with guidance but not fear.
So thank you. I'm getting around to repairing things, and hopefully continually getting better at not reacting.
And as an aside, Sandra - after I submitted this question, I was poking around some other threads on your Radical Unschooling Info Facebook page, and I found a line where you outright answered my question by saying to someone else that being polite isn't the same as lying. And I'm pretty sure you posted that either the same day or the day before I wrote this - sorry I hadn't seen it sooner! I probably would not have posted this question if I had.
~Amber
Sandra Dodd
-=--Try calling her back on a weekend morning (a time when she's probably not drinking wine)-=-
Ah, shit. Alcohol.
The rest of your post makes your mom seem like a useful, open-minded person. So maybe she is. But alchol will ruin anyone, no matter how sweet and good they started off, with enough time and quanitity.
Well the rest of your plan sounds good.
Maybe look online for some bits and bobs by and about Al-Anon. That honestly might be more help to you in this situation than anything else, and would take the pressure off you in the dyad of you and your mom. You can’t change the alcohol or the alcoholic. You can learn tools for feeling safer and more detached. And IF your hard childhood memories happen to have to do with alcohol, it will be easier (and less rejecting of your mom as a human) if you go there, to the alcohol, as a reason and in a discussion. if she wants to blame alcohol for complaining about a yellow rug (or if you do), that would mean that instead of saying “Don’t criticize my purchases” you could say “Don’t comment when you’re drinking.”
IF your childhood memories are alcohol related, you have good reason to shield your current family from alcoholics.
Let that be one more idea to go with the rest, while you’re thinking.
-=-sorry I hadn't seen it sooner! I probably would not have posted this question if I had. -=-
I’m glad you posted it. I wish more people would post here, and that more members would respond. I’ll be sad if Always Learning peters out!
Sandra
Ah, shit. Alcohol.
The rest of your post makes your mom seem like a useful, open-minded person. So maybe she is. But alchol will ruin anyone, no matter how sweet and good they started off, with enough time and quanitity.
Well the rest of your plan sounds good.
Maybe look online for some bits and bobs by and about Al-Anon. That honestly might be more help to you in this situation than anything else, and would take the pressure off you in the dyad of you and your mom. You can’t change the alcohol or the alcoholic. You can learn tools for feeling safer and more detached. And IF your hard childhood memories happen to have to do with alcohol, it will be easier (and less rejecting of your mom as a human) if you go there, to the alcohol, as a reason and in a discussion. if she wants to blame alcohol for complaining about a yellow rug (or if you do), that would mean that instead of saying “Don’t criticize my purchases” you could say “Don’t comment when you’re drinking.”
IF your childhood memories are alcohol related, you have good reason to shield your current family from alcoholics.
Let that be one more idea to go with the rest, while you’re thinking.
-=-sorry I hadn't seen it sooner! I probably would not have posted this question if I had. -=-
I’m glad you posted it. I wish more people would post here, and that more members would respond. I’ll be sad if Always Learning peters out!
Sandra
K Kissoyan
I am a long-time lurker here, and don't generally share my thoughts with the whole group. But this is a very familiar scenario/relationship for me, and I think that Sandra touched on some of what I was feeling when I read this:
"So my mother asked me for ideas on how she could get along with me better, and I told her to keep her opinions to herself unless asked, especially in cases where she disagrees with me. She replied, "oh, what, nobody can disagree with you?" And I tried to explain that she can disagree, but keep it to herself."
All the rest of it is distraction and red herrings. This is not about whether or not being polite equals lying, or anything else. This is about her letting you know that the relationship is strained AND she has no intention of owning any responsibility for that strain AND she expects you to fix it by accepting her as she is.
The reason, I think, that Sandra sees the rest of your post as indicating that you're trying to control her is, well, because you are: you're actually trying to script her responses for her. But it makes perfect sense that you would do this, that you would handle the situation as you did, because she's your mother, and clearly this was the coping mechanism modeled to you as you were growing up. It's very controlling, and it puts responsibility for conflicts within a relationship squarely on the shoulders of the Other Person.
So the response to that is not to control her; it is to control YOU. It doesn't matter whether or not you're "wrong in thinking that withholding one's unsolicited opinion is often the polite and preferable response?" You're wrong in thinking that that's going to be HER response. Your mom is not interested in changing her behavior, any more than you are interested in changing yours. One of you has to, though, and since you're the one asking us, and you're the only one in control of you, the person who has to change has to be you if the relationship is to change.
--
"So my mother asked me for ideas on how she could get along with me better, and I told her to keep her opinions to herself unless asked, especially in cases where she disagrees with me. She replied, "oh, what, nobody can disagree with you?" And I tried to explain that she can disagree, but keep it to herself."
Sandra said, "It sounds like you want to control your mom."
The fact that your mother asked you for ideas on how she could get along with you better tells us that the relationship is strained, and she knows it, and maybe even is trying to address that. That's good!
The fact that you gave her a very specific suggestion to improve the relationship (keep her unsolicited opinions to herself) in response to her very specific request for feedback, and her response to that was to attack you, tells us that she's not really interested in ways that SHE can improve the relationship. Rather, I would interpret this to mean that she's interested in making sure that you know that she knows that the relationship is strained, and she wants you to fix this by realizing that it's your fault (nobody can disagree with you! that's a character flaw! it's not her fault!).
The fact that you gave her a very specific suggestion to improve the relationship (keep her unsolicited opinions to herself) in response to her very specific request for feedback, and her response to that was to attack you, tells us that she's not really interested in ways that SHE can improve the relationship. Rather, I would interpret this to mean that she's interested in making sure that you know that she knows that the relationship is strained, and she wants you to fix this by realizing that it's your fault (nobody can disagree with you! that's a character flaw! it's not her fault!).
All the rest of it is distraction and red herrings. This is not about whether or not being polite equals lying, or anything else. This is about her letting you know that the relationship is strained AND she has no intention of owning any responsibility for that strain AND she expects you to fix it by accepting her as she is.
The reason, I think, that Sandra sees the rest of your post as indicating that you're trying to control her is, well, because you are: you're actually trying to script her responses for her. But it makes perfect sense that you would do this, that you would handle the situation as you did, because she's your mother, and clearly this was the coping mechanism modeled to you as you were growing up. It's very controlling, and it puts responsibility for conflicts within a relationship squarely on the shoulders of the Other Person.
So the response to that is not to control her; it is to control YOU. It doesn't matter whether or not you're "wrong in thinking that withholding one's unsolicited opinion is often the polite and preferable response?" You're wrong in thinking that that's going to be HER response. Your mom is not interested in changing her behavior, any more than you are interested in changing yours. One of you has to, though, and since you're the one asking us, and you're the only one in control of you, the person who has to change has to be you if the relationship is to change.
So. If she asks you again what she can do, you're welcome to remind her that you don't appreciate unsolicited advice, but don't expect that to lead to a change in behavior from her. Instead, let it lead to a change in behavior in you:
Me: Mom, I got a yellow rug!
Mom (option 1): I wouldn't have picked that color, it will show all the dirt.
Mom (option 1): I wouldn't have picked that color, it will show all the dirt.
Me (cheery and light): Interesting point. Oh well! I made pasta for dinner, want some?
The responses: "Interesting point."; "Hm, I hadn't thought of that."; and "Oh." are particularly useful at acknowledging that you have received the message and you are not taking the bait. Then you can just move on: "Have you seen the latest Star Wars movie?" Just don't. take. the. bait. And you will feel much better. Heck, she might even stop baiting you, eventually, if you take all the fun out of it. And that might actually have the effect of improving the relationship, which is the goal, right?!
Good luck!
Cheers,
Kimberley
“It is paradoxical that many educators and parents still differentiate
between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing the
vital connection between them.”
-- Leo F. Buscaglia
between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing the
vital connection between them.”
-- Leo F. Buscaglia
"The better you are at your job, the more you’re rewarded, financially and spiritually, by doing it. You know how to solve problems for which you receive praise and money. Home life is more chaotic. Solving problems is less prescriptive and no one’s applauding or throwing money if you do it right... Learn to embrace the chaos of family life and enjoy the small victories."
-- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Sandra Dodd
-=-. One of you has to, though, -=-
WOOP WOOP WOOP!
My “have to” alarm went off.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Neither “has to.”
Most of the rest I like, especially this:
-=-The responses: "Interesting point."; "Hm, I hadn't thought of that."; and "Oh." are particularly useful at acknowledging that you have received the message and you are not taking the bait. Then you can just move on: "Have you seen the latest Star Wars movie?" Just don't. take. the. bait. And you will feel much better. Heck, she might even stop baiting you, eventually, if you take all the fun out of it. And that might actually have the effect of improving the relationship, which is the goal, right?!-=-
But it will be CHOOSING, each time, over and over, to let the bait lie there and dry up. Not a “have to.”
And it won’t be easy at first to choose not to speak, to choose not to tense up, to choose not to get angry, to choose to be calm, and to wait, and to act and speak differently.
And it could get easier, with practice. :-)
This is overstated:
-=-This is about her letting you know that the relationship is strained AND she has no intention of owning any responsibility for that strain AND she expects you to fix it by accepting her as she is. -=-
We don’t know what that mom expects or intends. Based on one report of someone who’s pretty cranky with her, it’s too much guessing or projection.
Sandra
WOOP WOOP WOOP!
My “have to” alarm went off.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Neither “has to.”
Most of the rest I like, especially this:
-=-The responses: "Interesting point."; "Hm, I hadn't thought of that."; and "Oh." are particularly useful at acknowledging that you have received the message and you are not taking the bait. Then you can just move on: "Have you seen the latest Star Wars movie?" Just don't. take. the. bait. And you will feel much better. Heck, she might even stop baiting you, eventually, if you take all the fun out of it. And that might actually have the effect of improving the relationship, which is the goal, right?!-=-
But it will be CHOOSING, each time, over and over, to let the bait lie there and dry up. Not a “have to.”
And it won’t be easy at first to choose not to speak, to choose not to tense up, to choose not to get angry, to choose to be calm, and to wait, and to act and speak differently.
And it could get easier, with practice. :-)
This is overstated:
-=-This is about her letting you know that the relationship is strained AND she has no intention of owning any responsibility for that strain AND she expects you to fix it by accepting her as she is. -=-
We don’t know what that mom expects or intends. Based on one report of someone who’s pretty cranky with her, it’s too much guessing or projection.
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
After an unpleasant break up years ago, I developed a guiding principle for relationships: I don't say anything with the expectation of getting any particular response; I don't say something because I need to hear the other person say some certain thing back. When I've strayed from this principle, it has never worked out for me. By identifying where and when I am tempted to do that, I can see where I am trying to get the other person to behave differently.
I've never been successful in getting someone else to change for me:) But every time I have wanted that to happen, if I take the time to apply the advice I wish I could give them *to myself*, I find that *I* can change in a way that alleviates the tension I was feeling. And then, every time I am feeling that kind of tension, I can often trace it back to where I am wanting the other person to be different, and try to apply that practice.
The goal for me is not just to RISE above a potential conflict, but to BE above a potential conflict, almost on another plane, where it can't get any traction to begin with.
Sarah