Being too generous with money
bonniecrocker2003@...
I have a couple of issues I would like to bring up in the near future but am requesting immediate feedback on a current issue for now. I made a decision that I may have been too hasty on and handled poorly.
This concerns my daughter Chloe who will be 13 in the next month. She has always been unschooled. She has accumulated quite a bit of money from pet sitting over the past few years and saves most of it. I would say she has more money than the majority of her friends if not all of them and can spend her money freely which is also probably much different than most of her friends.
Recently, she decided to spend $200 on Roblox. Since being introduced to this, she spends quite a bit of money on it which is fine. She gives me the money for whatever she wants. She also has a friend that loves Roblox too and also wanted to spend the same $200 on it but unlike Chloe doesn't have the money. Her friend comes from more traditional parenting where she must earn her money and currently only has $40.00 to put toward it. This is where the problem comes in.
Her friend's mom contacted me and said Chloe and R. made a deal for R. to give Chloe items valued at $110.00 and then the other $50.00 would come from R.'s parents early November when she showed that she kept her grades up. She wanted to know if I was okay with this and after speaking to Chloe, I said okay but truthfully I wasn't at all. After speaking to Chloe further and the mom, I felt that this wasn't a good idea. Truthfully, I was thinking why would you think my daughter should give your daughter that large amount of money and because I didn't know how to nicely say it, I said okay which is my fault of course.
Chloe is more than happy to give her friend whatever money she wants simply because she wants her to have what she has and because she has access to a large amount of money, it doesn't bother her. The items of value really are just an attempt by R. to legitimize the deal when in fact she would get the money from Chloe regardless. Chloe didn't really care if she got any items at all but one of things, a blanket, she likes.
Chloe is very generous and has a history of giving money to her friends. I found out a few weeks ago through another mother that her daughter had $60.00 on her and when asked where she got it, she said Chloe. The mother made her daughter give the money back.
The reason R. doesn't get the money from her parents is because they won't give it to her for various reasons i.e. not dong what she is suppose to do around house, not keeping grades up, etc. so she is coming to Chloe to get the money. I told the mom I didn't feel comfortable in Chloe being placed in this role when the reason is simply because the parents can't/won't give their child the money. I think it encourages her friends to take advantage of her or I will say that if I was 12 and my parents wouldn't give me the money and I knew I had a generous friend, I would certainly get the money from them. I can't blame them. I have little doubt that she has probably done this on more than one occasion. We had an incident when she was 6 of giving an older boy $60.00 for the sheer pleasure of it and I only knew because her twin brother told on her. It caused a huge issue with the mother of the boy which wasn't pleasant. That's at least 3 incidents that I know of.
She's very generous and thoughtful and will buy snacks for her friends because she knows they like a certain kind. Last week she had me go to the store so she could buy a bunch of snacks for her friends for a sleepover. We live in Germany and this friend is about to go back to the US in the next month.
I'm thinking I didn't handle this well. My question is how do I support her generosity while helping to protect her from those that will see her as bank of Chloe when they need something especially in lieu of the fact that their parents are saying no?
Another indication that I didn't handle this well is that we keep a locked box to put the pet sitting money in and when there is enough, I take it to the bank to put in their accounts. I asked her to keep no more than $20.00 on her for safety and yes, the underhanded reason of hoping if she didn't have more than that on her, she wouldn't have it to give away. Well $40.00 was missing the next day from the locked box (she has a brother that likes to count it frequently) and she admitted she took it. This caused more problems because she didn't wait until it was divided between all 3 of my kids before she took the $40.00 which would be unfair to her brothers as all 3 do the pet sitting. This is an excellent example to those who are reading this of what a child will do when an unnecessary and unfair obstacle is put in the way....become sneaky. That was made clear to me.
My question is how to handle this now and how to proceed with discussing this further with Chloe? I've pretty much left it as no I don't want her in this role to the mom who was understanding but really interested in thoughts considering future situations.
Bonnie
michelle_m29@...
I'm coming at this differently because my daughter is much older (nineteen now), but I've had the same question brewing for the past couple of years.
Alex has been putting away almost all of her paycheck since she turned eighteen and started working full time, so she has a LOT of available money (close to twenty thousand last time I heard), especially compared to her friends who are a couple of years younger.
The incident that first got my attention was when I'd driven her up to a friend's house to spend the weekend and left her with spending money. I can't remember how much it was, maybe sixty bucks, but there was a portion of it that she was absolutely free to spend and then some extra in case of emergency (Emergency in this case understood to mean an actual emergency or a pair of really cute shoes.) Her friend's boyfriend went to the zoo with them and ice skating and he had no money of his own, so the girls wound up pooling their resources to pay for his admission and lunch. I wasn't entirely fine with money from our family budget going to pay for her friend's boyfriend, but it wasn't a huge big deal.
It did make me warn Alex about maybe not letting her friends know how much cash she had access to, or that she had credit cards. From what I can see, she's generous with her friends. I know she treats one girl to lunch or dinner often because her friend's parents don't keep groceries in the house (and the friend's sister's homeless friends are eating what there is ) and that she likes some particular restaurants up in Portland that they can't afford, so if she wants to eat there she knows she has to pay for herself and whoever she's with. It's the price of her favorite pho.
There was one gal who was a bit of a leech. I think I posted about that situation a couple of years back, although my question then wasn't about the money issue. Since then, M has asked my daughter for rides to events, then dumped her the second they got there, and tried to hit her up with a sob story so that Alex, who was staying with her grandparents that night, would see if M could stay too because she had found a ride up buy had no way home. (Because of where we live, there are about four different towns involved in their activities, ranging from 50 to 100 miles from home.) Other acquaintances have popped out of the woodwork before various events to see if she'd drive them -- most recently, it was a guy my daughter had met twice months earlier who was asking about an event four and a half hours away that she wasn't even going to. I found out about it because she couldn't believe he'd even ask, when she said she knew he wouldn't chip in for gas and she'd have to feed him too.
Next weekend there's a big cosplay event. One friend is paying for the motel room and Alex is paying for gas and providing transportation. I'm not quite sure who and from where, but they seem to have it worked out.
Last summer, Alex was thinking about giving money to a friend who wouldn't graduate unless she did summer school and didn't have the two hundred dollar fees. Friend's father has been unemployed for a LONG time (a couple of years at least) and Alex wanted to help. She wound up deciding that her friend was unlikely to actually attend the classes and that it would damage the friendship, so she didn't make the offer.
The way I see it, buying snacks or dinner or paying admission is a lot different than just giving a friend money or buying them the same fancy thing you've got because they want one. (And it really surprises me that the other girl's mom in your situation would be okay with it.)
The sad truth is that there are some people who just seem to be out for what they can get. Back to M, Alex has watched her move from friend to friend when she wants something. Or call a mutual friend and make plans so that the mutual friend will expect Alex to drive M up there. We've talked about how it's nice to help people out (like one gal they'd just meant who wanted to go to the restaurant with everyone else after an event but didn't have any money on her because it was a spur of the moment thing, so everyone pitched in to her her a sandwich) and how some people seem to make a career out of needing help. And how it can be hard to tell the difference without getting burned a bit. (To be clear, I'm talking about teenagers and kids here, not adults)
I think what's working for my daughter is to not be transparent about how much money she has, and maybe a little bit to think about what the other person contributes to the relationship. Not in a score-keeping way...but maybe sort of. She'll do more for the friend who invites her to spend the weekend often than she would to someone who only calls when they need a ride. I don't think it's quite that cold and calculating in real life.
Michelle
Sarah Thompson
I've been thinking about this all day because it already comes up with my kids sometimes in little ways.
One thought I have is that, in the acee of my kids, they are always saving up for something or other. Because they have these goals, they are careful to husband their resources. Sometimes they will use * a little* money for something now, and still save the bulk for later. Sometimes they will get to the goal and go big. I wonder if, with an older child, there might be an opportunity to talk about long term financial and life goals, even sit down with a financial planner if that sounded fun, as a means of developing some perspective about money. Maybe that would enrich the child's sense of what they want their needy friend slush fund to be.
In the original post, the fact that the mother even asked if you were okay with this suggests that she recognizes there is something inappropriate about letting your daughter use her money to pay for things they are able but unwilling to buy. It is your daughter's prerogative to help out her friends, but I agree with you that this seems to cross a boundary.
Sarah
bonniecrocker2003@...
"I wonder if, with an older child, there might be an opportunity to talk about long term financial and life goals, even sit down with a financial planner if that sounded fun, as a means of developing some perspective about money. Maybe that would enrich the child's sense of what they want their needy friend slush fund to be."
I don't think this is where Chloe is at right now but appreciate the advice. She actually is really a good saver and I think it just amounts to the fact that she is a generous person and genuinely wants to help out her friend. I'm also thinking maturity will help too with being a bit more discerning.
I don't think this is where Chloe is at right now but appreciate the advice. She actually is really a good saver and I think it just amounts to the fact that she is a generous person and genuinely wants to help out her friend. I'm also thinking maturity will help too with being a bit more discerning.
I will add that this is a friend that she met over in Germany and has known over 4 years. They often spend the night at each other's house and I'm good friends with her parents.
The mom was fine with my concerns and said if Chloe didn't feel it was fair, that was fine and then explained why she wasn't given R. the money. I simply explained I didn't want her in this role but I really think the mom thought they had a deal which they both agreed on.
However, a few hours ago Chloe came to me and said that R. wanted something on Roblox for $50.00 and she wanted to keep the $40.00 that R. had given to her earlier that she was going to return and then give R. $10.00 of her own money which she asked me to transfer from her account to mine. I told her it was her money but I did make her aware of the fact that R. was doing this because she couldn't get the money from her mother. Chloe did say R. gave her a limited edition of something or other from Roblox and she was happy with that. I thought she might keep the blanket since she liked it but she said that was okay and was just going to give her the $10.00 and return the blanket. My husband and I did have a bit of a chuckle because R.'s father is a bit of a wheeler dealer and we think R. might have inherited this gene.
I did take the money to the bank the other day so I'm going to try and get the money in the bank quicker. I'll keep an eye on the situation. I'm happy that she is still coming to me to ask about this because she has access to the credit card and could be a bit sneaky about it and hope I don't check my account that closely so I definitely want to keep the lines of communication open. This is a good friend. I think that now she knows this isn't something I'm really happy about, she might give it more thought than she did before and not just give large amounts away. However, she knows I'll take her to the store to buy snacks for sleepovers and that type of thing whenever she wants and I've also told her that I'm happy she is such a thoughtful and generous person.
Sarah Peshek
=-=My question is how do I support her generosity while helping to protect her from those that will see her as bank of Chloe when they need something=-=
If the money is truly hers, I am left scratching my head as to where the problem lies. Your daughter has what she wants and needs and THEN some, and she wants to share some of that extra with a close friend, in order for them to share an activity together. This seems like it actually benefits your daughter in at least two ways: she feels kind and generous AND she gets to play with her new toy the way she most wants to. This sounds so good! Generosity and abundance beget good unschooling.
Also, a bank does not give money away. I know how people use that saying, but is not helpful here, for you to use to see your daughter clearly.
=-=to give Chloe items valued at $110.00 =-=
Or maybe she's not even giving it away. Here this sounds like a trade going on. In order to make sense of this situation, you should gain some clarity as to what is actually happening, and only refer to it in those realistic terms, both in writing and in your mind.
=-=why would you think my daughter should give your daughter that large amount of money=-=
It sounds like this is less about your daughter's situation and more a chance for you to reflect on your attitude toward money. Don't answer here, but what is making this such a sore spot for you? Why are you seeing your daughter as a victim instead of capable of making a good decision?
=-=especially in lieu of the fact that their parents are saying no?=-=
If the other mom doesn't want her daughter to have the money, then it is her job to make that happen. Don't do her dirty work for her. You cannot possible ensure that nobody in your home doesn't ever do anything that a parent in a different home wouldn't like.
If this deal goes down, whether it is a gift or a trade, your daughter has the chance to see how it feels to be generous. You really cannot decide for her what is TOO generous. Remember that she is always learning. If it is indeed too much for her, and she misses the money and regrets it once it is all said and done, she'll know something new about herself and the world. If she feels only good about it, she learns how wonderful it can feel to help someone else and how fun the Roblox were! BUT, if you stop the whole thing, she learns that her mother doesn't trust her to make good choices and that, maybe, having the most dollars at the end of the day is more important than enjoying those dollars with the people we love.
Peace,
Sarah Peshek
On Monday, October 24, 2016 9:18 PM, "bonniecrocker2003@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
"I wonder if, with an older child, there might be an opportunity to talk about long term financial and life goals, even sit down with a financial planner if that sounded fun, as a means of developing some perspective about money. Maybe that would enrich the child's sense of what they want their needy friend slush fund to be."
I don't think this is where Chloe is at right now but appreciate the advice. She actually is really a good saver and I think it just amounts to the fact that she is a generous person and genuinely wants to help out her friend. I'm also thinking maturity will help too with being a bit more discerning.
I don't think this is where Chloe is at right now but appreciate the advice. She actually is really a good saver and I think it just amounts to the fact that she is a generous person and genuinely wants to help out her friend. I'm also thinking maturity will help too with being a bit more discerning.
I will add that this is a friend that she met over in Germany and has known over 4 years. They often spend the night at each other's house and I'm good friends with her parents.
The mom was fine with my concerns and said if Chloe didn't feel it was fair, that was fine and then explained why she wasn't given R. the money. I simply explained I didn't want her in this role but I really think the mom thought they had a deal which they both agreed on.
However, a few hours ago Chloe came to me and said that R. wanted something on Roblox for $50.00 and she wanted to keep the $40.00 that R. had given to her earlier that she was going to return and then give R. $10.00 of her own money which she asked me to transfer from her account to mine. I told her it was her money but I did make her aware of the fact that R. was doing this because she couldn't get the money from her mother. Chloe did say R. gave her a limited edition of something or other from Roblox and she was happy with that. I thought she might keep the blanket since she liked it but she said that was okay and was just going to give her the $10.00 and return the blanket. My husband and I did have a bit of a chuckle because R.'s father is a bit of a wheeler dealer and we think R. might have inherited this gene.
I did take the money to the bank the other day so I'm going to try and get the money in the bank quicker. I'll keep an eye on the situation. I'm happy that she is still coming to me to ask about this because she has access to the credit card and could be a bit sneaky about it and hope I don't check my account that closely so I definitely want to keep the lines of communication open. This is a good friend. I think that now she knows this isn't something I'm really happy about, she might give it more thought than she did before and not just give large amounts away. However, she knows I'll take her to the store to buy snacks for sleepovers and that type of thing whenever she wants and I've also told her that I'm happy she is such a thoughtful and generous person.
Sandra Dodd
-=-"I wonder if, with an older child, there might be an opportunity to talk about long term financial and life goals, even sit down with a financial planner if that sounded fun,-=-
That sounded terrible to me just to READ, and I’m grown and my husband is retired.
Pressing a child or teen to “plan for long term financial goals” is really, truly NOT a good idea.
They know from playing video games about earning and spending points.
-=-BUT, if you stop the whole thing, she learns that her mother doesn't trust her to make good choices and that, maybe, having the most dollars at the end of the day is more important than enjoying those dollars with the people we love.-=-
Yes. Sometimes spending money is the best thing to do with money. Sometimes it feels good to give money away.
Probably there are readers here who have given money to strangers. A friend of mine died last week and the “in lieu of flowers” request was donations to a rural animal rescue group. I send them $80. My dead friend will not know. His girlfriend won’t even know, unless maybe someday she asks whether they ever got any donations. She won’t know it was from me. Would I rather have had that $80 in the bank when I died? I was honoring the memory of a very nice man I had known half or my life and most of his.
I’ve seen families recommend giving a child $10 a week, BUT…. $1 was for the offering plate at church, and $2 had to be put in savings.
Why couldn’t they just give the child $7, and do the other sorting themselves? Because they wanted to control the child and “teach” her how to manage money. But they weren’t accomplishing their goal. They were creating a feeling of paucity and loss, which the child will probably make up for someday by NOT saving when the amounts are larger, and NOT giving to the church when they actually hae an income.
There are pages about money on my site. I think the greatest value of allowing children to make choices about money is that the amounts are smaller than they would be if the child’s first chance to make choices happens when they also have rent, utilities, car insurance and other such obligations. Try not to add the factor of what the mom thinks about what is done, or you could be an irritating ghost in the person’s head for decades.
If you have any shaming or controlling voices in your head, think of how they got there, and how you might avoid becoming one.
But for the specific questions being asked in the thread, if you (the parents together) think the child is misusing money or not taking care of it, don’t provide as much money.
IF it is earned money that the child worked for, then it’s not your (parents) money.
Being clearer about what things are and aren’t can often help you find your own answers. But here are some prior discussions:
http://sandradodd.com/money
http://sandradodd.com/math/allowance
Sandra
That sounded terrible to me just to READ, and I’m grown and my husband is retired.
Pressing a child or teen to “plan for long term financial goals” is really, truly NOT a good idea.
They know from playing video games about earning and spending points.
-=-BUT, if you stop the whole thing, she learns that her mother doesn't trust her to make good choices and that, maybe, having the most dollars at the end of the day is more important than enjoying those dollars with the people we love.-=-
Yes. Sometimes spending money is the best thing to do with money. Sometimes it feels good to give money away.
Probably there are readers here who have given money to strangers. A friend of mine died last week and the “in lieu of flowers” request was donations to a rural animal rescue group. I send them $80. My dead friend will not know. His girlfriend won’t even know, unless maybe someday she asks whether they ever got any donations. She won’t know it was from me. Would I rather have had that $80 in the bank when I died? I was honoring the memory of a very nice man I had known half or my life and most of his.
I’ve seen families recommend giving a child $10 a week, BUT…. $1 was for the offering plate at church, and $2 had to be put in savings.
Why couldn’t they just give the child $7, and do the other sorting themselves? Because they wanted to control the child and “teach” her how to manage money. But they weren’t accomplishing their goal. They were creating a feeling of paucity and loss, which the child will probably make up for someday by NOT saving when the amounts are larger, and NOT giving to the church when they actually hae an income.
There are pages about money on my site. I think the greatest value of allowing children to make choices about money is that the amounts are smaller than they would be if the child’s first chance to make choices happens when they also have rent, utilities, car insurance and other such obligations. Try not to add the factor of what the mom thinks about what is done, or you could be an irritating ghost in the person’s head for decades.
If you have any shaming or controlling voices in your head, think of how they got there, and how you might avoid becoming one.
But for the specific questions being asked in the thread, if you (the parents together) think the child is misusing money or not taking care of it, don’t provide as much money.
IF it is earned money that the child worked for, then it’s not your (parents) money.
Being clearer about what things are and aren’t can often help you find your own answers. But here are some prior discussions:
http://sandradodd.com/money
http://sandradodd.com/math/allowance
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
A story about my own kids and their friends:
All our kids had allowance. I wish it had been more at the time, but it was what it was. It was 75 cents per year of age per week, so a six year old had $4.50, a ten year old had $7.50. Sixteen year olds had $12 a week. Like that. Variously and at different times they would save it on the calendar (not collect it) or in a box or bank or wallet, or spend it as it came. They got cash gifts sometimes from grandparents or from us. They all had jobs of various sorts in mid-teens and after. Kirby collected none of his in his 18th year, so he could get it later. At some point he cashed out nearly $700. Not the easiest thing. :-)
In those years, they had some friends who had more money, and some who had less. Sometimes money would be pooled or shared, for a meal or a movie. Sometimes one kid would pay for arcade tokens for the group. One friend was poor for years, and never had a job until he was 17 or 18, and lived far out of town. For a couple of years, Kirby and Marty and other friends in that group covered him for meals and movie, and they did it gladly and generously. When that friend got his first good job, he treated all the other teens wholly to meals he would pay for himself, and bought them all gifts on their birthdays and such for a year or so. He was SO PROUD to be able to really “pay them back,” though it was never done in a dollar-for-dollar way, but in a generosity for generosity way.
Had any of the parents said “Stop paying for his meals and movies—if his mom doesn’t give him money, you shouldn’t be giving it to him,” that would have marred what was good and positive over an arc of years.
Sandra
All our kids had allowance. I wish it had been more at the time, but it was what it was. It was 75 cents per year of age per week, so a six year old had $4.50, a ten year old had $7.50. Sixteen year olds had $12 a week. Like that. Variously and at different times they would save it on the calendar (not collect it) or in a box or bank or wallet, or spend it as it came. They got cash gifts sometimes from grandparents or from us. They all had jobs of various sorts in mid-teens and after. Kirby collected none of his in his 18th year, so he could get it later. At some point he cashed out nearly $700. Not the easiest thing. :-)
In those years, they had some friends who had more money, and some who had less. Sometimes money would be pooled or shared, for a meal or a movie. Sometimes one kid would pay for arcade tokens for the group. One friend was poor for years, and never had a job until he was 17 or 18, and lived far out of town. For a couple of years, Kirby and Marty and other friends in that group covered him for meals and movie, and they did it gladly and generously. When that friend got his first good job, he treated all the other teens wholly to meals he would pay for himself, and bought them all gifts on their birthdays and such for a year or so. He was SO PROUD to be able to really “pay them back,” though it was never done in a dollar-for-dollar way, but in a generosity for generosity way.
Had any of the parents said “Stop paying for his meals and movies—if his mom doesn’t give him money, you shouldn’t be giving it to him,” that would have marred what was good and positive over an arc of years.
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
I agree that pressing a child to plan for the long term is not a good idea, and I don't think that's what I said. But I'm not clear on why it's a problem for a teen to have support in understanding why they might want to have more money later. Not be forced to know, if they aren't ready, but isn't that part of learning about money? Video games do teach about resources, as does having an actual wallet on Steam for buying games. But if you get into debt or run out of money, you still go to the kitchen and get a snack. I know many people who are terribly burdened by debts that they didn't understand the ramifications of when they took it on, and it seems to affect their quality of life a lot of the time. Does the parent serve a role here, or is that a trial and error thing?
Sarah
Sarah Thompson
Is it because the child *doesn't* have an issue, it is the parent that is concerned? The child is comfortable with the money dynamics, so the fixing that needs to happen is with Mom's attitude and not with the child's money-sharing?
Along those lines, I am unclear on the part where Mom is taking money to the bank. Is the money in the bank *not* available to Chloe? Is it just the money in the jar in the house? Because that seems arbitrary.
Sarah
semajrak@...
***She wanted to know if I was okay with this and after speaking to Chloe, I said okay but truthfully I wasn't at all. After speaking to Chloe further and the mom, I felt that this wasn't a good idea. Truthfully, I was thinking why would you think my daughter should give your daughter that large amount of money and because I didn't know how to nicely say it, I said okay which is my fault of course.***
You cannot control what people ask for or what people think is appropriate to ask for. You can control how your respond to requests, how you choose to give, and how you choose to feel about your choice to decline giving. Work on way to support feeling more confident about your own choices, rather than trying to control (too much) what your daughter chooses to do with her resources. The confidence *you* gain will bring you greater clarity when it comes to helping your daughter.
Karen James
bonniecrocker2003@...
"Along those lines, I am unclear on the part where Mom is taking money to the bank. Is the money in the bank *not* available to Chloe? Is it just the money in the jar in the house? Because that seems arbitrary."
Chloe always has access to her bank account. I have "control" over it because they are minors. My husband can't even deposit money in it because it has my name on it but all 3 have access to it.
When I say I take it to the bank, I mean that when the kids are paid by the owners of the pets, it gets put into a locked box in our house and when there is a fair amount, I take it to the bank and put it in their individual accounts. I just took $700.00 there a week ago. It accumulates fast. The twins have a large amount of money saved but my oldest has very little choosing to spend his pretty much as he gets it but all 3 have the choice to spend as they see fit. I always ask if they want me to put it in the bank before I do it.
-
-
Sandra Dodd
-=-"Along those lines, I am unclear on the part where Mom is taking money to the bank. Is the money in the bank *not* available to Chloe? Is it just the money in the jar in the house? Because that seems arbitrary.”-=-
Probably asking for too much information. :-)
Banks’ policies aren’t arbitrary, though. There are realities about having money in banks that aren’t created by parents.
When people post, we can discuss the ideas in the original questions without asking for more information. It’s okay to say “IF it’s arbitrary, why?” or “IF the money in the bank isn’t available, that might be a problem…”
It’s better not to call the original poster to clarify, partly because it keeps the discussion more general and useful for lots of people. We’re trying to analyze unschooling ideas, and not be a fix-it shop. This is a hard distinction to explain and to understand sometimes. :-)
We don’t need to try to fix anyone’s problem, but if we can disassemble it under the bright light of unschooling, lots of readers will discover various aspects and facets that will help them with their own lives.
Thanks,
Sandra
Probably asking for too much information. :-)
Banks’ policies aren’t arbitrary, though. There are realities about having money in banks that aren’t created by parents.
When people post, we can discuss the ideas in the original questions without asking for more information. It’s okay to say “IF it’s arbitrary, why?” or “IF the money in the bank isn’t available, that might be a problem…”
It’s better not to call the original poster to clarify, partly because it keeps the discussion more general and useful for lots of people. We’re trying to analyze unschooling ideas, and not be a fix-it shop. This is a hard distinction to explain and to understand sometimes. :-)
We don’t need to try to fix anyone’s problem, but if we can disassemble it under the bright light of unschooling, lots of readers will discover various aspects and facets that will help them with their own lives.
Thanks,
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-Video games do teach about resources, -=-
WRONG!
From playing video games, children learn about resources.
Until the difference between teaching and learning is VERY, fully clear, unschooling will be jerky and messy.
-=-But I'm not clear on why it's a problem for a teen to have support in understanding why they might want to have more money later. Not be forced to know, if they aren't ready, but isn't that part of learning about money?-=-
“Not be forced to know…”
No one can be forced to know anything. It’s not how learning works.
Learning about money by using money is NOT the same as learning about money by adults lecturing or explaining or providing “support in understanding.”
-=- But if you get into debt or run out of money, you still go to the kitchen and get a snack.-=-
All children whose parents are unschooling them should be able to go to the kitchen and get a snack.
I know the point you were trying to make, but it sounds punitive, and almost like wishing a failure on a child, or assuming that a child who is generous will be starving later.
It’s harsher than is helpful.
-=-I know many people who are terribly burdened by debts that they didn't understand the ramifications of when they took it on, and it seems to affect their quality of life a lot of the time. -=-
FIRST, were any of those people unschooled? Many of us are sharing stories of actual experience seeing unschooled kids who had money, used it without being coached or shamed or controlled, and who figured out LOTS about earning and taking care of money.
If you do NOT have experiences like that, it’s best not to contribute suggestions.
Secondly, probably many of those burdensome debts started with or invove student loans. That’s a horrible topic I don’t want to get into, but it’s not as likely that unschoolers are going to have the kind and size of student loans that are routinely applied for by or on behalf of kids JUST getting out of high school and been funnelled and shunted into college immediately, without having had ANY time to relax or to party. If the people in your "I know many people” set fall into that group, then you’re looking the way wrong direction.
-=-Does the parent serve a role here, or is that a trial and error thing?-=-
False dichotomy.
And I don’t think you’re reading what people are writing, really. If you haven’t read the links about money and unschoolers, please go back and read them.
And read this, about teaching:
http://sandradodd.com/teaching
Don’t talk about teaching or claim that games (or anything) “teaches” something to unschoolers. It will send readers in the wrong direction.
Not ony is this a false dichotomy, but I don’t think it was well thought out:
-=--=-Does the parent serve a role here, or is that a trial and error thing?-=—=-
“Here” meaning in unschooling?
“Here” meaning involving learning about money?
-=-...or is that a trial and error thing?-=-
That what?? Don’t answer, just look and see that the question isn’t clear.
Parents are crucially important in unschooling, of course. They should be doing all the things I describe and have collected from others on my website, and that Joyce has on hers. ALL THOSE THINGS!
LOTS of hours. Tons of attention.
But if one takes a child aside and starts teaching about longterm savings and retirement, that’s not the kind of presence and attention that helps unschooling work as gloriously as it can work.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
An unschooling nest shouldn’t have teaching and so much management.
Children will learn about riding a bicycle by trial and error. It won’t help to talk to them about professional racers, when they’re learning to start and stop.
Children learn about interpersonal relations with new friends by trial and error. They learn to be nicer by seeing the effects of being nicer (or of failing to do so).
Children learn about money by having it, using it. Practicing with small amounts, and increasingly larger amounts, makes them better able to think about buying a car or a house.
My kids are still learning in their 20’s, but they’ve also all paid rent, and insurance, and for various phones, computers, and other expensive decisions. Sometimes they ask for help and sometimes they don’t. They have all saved money in the thousands of dollars. When I was their age, I hadn’t, yet.
My children have never learned by trial and error in the absence of their parents or other relatives or friends (adults, teens, whatever ages) to talk to if they wanted ideas or help.
Sandra
WRONG!
From playing video games, children learn about resources.
Until the difference between teaching and learning is VERY, fully clear, unschooling will be jerky and messy.
-=-But I'm not clear on why it's a problem for a teen to have support in understanding why they might want to have more money later. Not be forced to know, if they aren't ready, but isn't that part of learning about money?-=-
“Not be forced to know…”
No one can be forced to know anything. It’s not how learning works.
Learning about money by using money is NOT the same as learning about money by adults lecturing or explaining or providing “support in understanding.”
-=- But if you get into debt or run out of money, you still go to the kitchen and get a snack.-=-
All children whose parents are unschooling them should be able to go to the kitchen and get a snack.
I know the point you were trying to make, but it sounds punitive, and almost like wishing a failure on a child, or assuming that a child who is generous will be starving later.
It’s harsher than is helpful.
-=-I know many people who are terribly burdened by debts that they didn't understand the ramifications of when they took it on, and it seems to affect their quality of life a lot of the time. -=-
FIRST, were any of those people unschooled? Many of us are sharing stories of actual experience seeing unschooled kids who had money, used it without being coached or shamed or controlled, and who figured out LOTS about earning and taking care of money.
If you do NOT have experiences like that, it’s best not to contribute suggestions.
Secondly, probably many of those burdensome debts started with or invove student loans. That’s a horrible topic I don’t want to get into, but it’s not as likely that unschoolers are going to have the kind and size of student loans that are routinely applied for by or on behalf of kids JUST getting out of high school and been funnelled and shunted into college immediately, without having had ANY time to relax or to party. If the people in your "I know many people” set fall into that group, then you’re looking the way wrong direction.
-=-Does the parent serve a role here, or is that a trial and error thing?-=-
False dichotomy.
And I don’t think you’re reading what people are writing, really. If you haven’t read the links about money and unschoolers, please go back and read them.
And read this, about teaching:
http://sandradodd.com/teaching
Don’t talk about teaching or claim that games (or anything) “teaches” something to unschoolers. It will send readers in the wrong direction.
Not ony is this a false dichotomy, but I don’t think it was well thought out:
-=--=-Does the parent serve a role here, or is that a trial and error thing?-=—=-
“Here” meaning in unschooling?
“Here” meaning involving learning about money?
-=-...or is that a trial and error thing?-=-
That what?? Don’t answer, just look and see that the question isn’t clear.
Parents are crucially important in unschooling, of course. They should be doing all the things I describe and have collected from others on my website, and that Joyce has on hers. ALL THOSE THINGS!
LOTS of hours. Tons of attention.
But if one takes a child aside and starts teaching about longterm savings and retirement, that’s not the kind of presence and attention that helps unschooling work as gloriously as it can work.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
An unschooling nest shouldn’t have teaching and so much management.
Children will learn about riding a bicycle by trial and error. It won’t help to talk to them about professional racers, when they’re learning to start and stop.
Children learn about interpersonal relations with new friends by trial and error. They learn to be nicer by seeing the effects of being nicer (or of failing to do so).
Children learn about money by having it, using it. Practicing with small amounts, and increasingly larger amounts, makes them better able to think about buying a car or a house.
My kids are still learning in their 20’s, but they’ve also all paid rent, and insurance, and for various phones, computers, and other expensive decisions. Sometimes they ask for help and sometimes they don’t. They have all saved money in the thousands of dollars. When I was their age, I hadn’t, yet.
My children have never learned by trial and error in the absence of their parents or other relatives or friends (adults, teens, whatever ages) to talk to if they wanted ideas or help.
Sandra
bonniecrocker2003@...
One thing I would like to clarify is that I have never told any of my 3 children what they should spend their money on. All her money is earned for the most part with the occasional $$ coming from us for various reasons. I have had some discussion with my husband who is a bit slower to accept the more nontraditional ways and does occasionally make comments. He felt $200 for Roblox was a rip off and shared this with Chloe but he grew up poor and generosity toward him was nonexistent so I expect to hear some of these type of comments. We discussed it later on.
-
In thinking about this some more, I might have had the tape playing from childhood that when a parent says no, you don't go to to the other parent and ask. In traditional parenting, that is viewed as manipulation. Maybe I saw Chloe in that other parent's role and I truly wanted to know if it is something she should be made aware of. I don't want Chloe inadvertently to get in the middle of the relationship. In the other case, where the mom made her daughter give the money back to Chloe, I didn't even mention it to Chloe at the time. This being the 3rd instance of this, I felt it was time to seek advice. I appreciate the different perspectives and something to think about. My husband and myself are very generous with our money which is a major reason our children are generous so I certainly don't want to do anything to jeopardize that.
My daughter spends her money all the time on her friends and I'm aware of it with no problem. I think the large amount of money and the fact that her friend was told no by her parents was the catalyst that got my attention. I'm pretty sure the mom wouldn't have been okay at all with her daughter getting the money outright from Chloe so the daughter came up with this deal to cover that fact. It was clear when speaking to Chloe she would have simply given her the money. She did end up giving her friend some money a few days later for another Roblox.
Being generous to our children has been one of the major ways I've seen unschooling in action as I keep waiting for those 3 "spoiled brats" (whatever that is) to materialize but it has never happened. I've pointed this out to my husband too. All are really kind and generous children. It's helped both me and my husband too in our views on money and to let go of a lot of those tapes, though they still pop up from time to time.
-