child crying and screaming when losing a game or video game
tanyaz1@...
I thought there were, and I've been searching for, previous threads about helping kids who get very upset about losing games. I can't seem to find them. Maybe I'm not using the right search words. If anyone can point them out, thank you so much.
Otherwise, here's what I'm looking for help with. My 10yo son has a very difficult time with losing any game. I can play cooperative games with him so we can just enjoy a game without a winner or loser, but he has friends who want to play games with him and he can't maintain control of his emotions when he is losing or is afraid is going to lose. He cries, screams, and tries to fix the game so he's not losing. His friends stare at him in disbelief. Some try to let him win because he's crying. Some call him a cheater and he gets more upset at being called a cheater.
Today, my son asked me to play a new made-up version of Connect4. There were several matches in a timed tournament. He had a higher score most of the game. He handled it well when I caught up to his score, didn't get upset, but instead focused on trying to win. Then, I won without really trying to, and he got very upset with yelling, screaming, and clear actions of anger with screaming through gritted teeth, strained and red face, banging his fist in his hands or on the table, and trying to reset the game so he could try to win instead. This is a very typical reaction when he loses a board game.
When my son plays sports video games that are challenging (right now it's football), he cries, screams, yells, throws himself on the floor in a tantrum when he is losing or when the other team scores a few points even though he is really far ahead in points, but he's still afraid he's going to lose.
We've talked so much about what he is feeling -- he really just HATES to lose and it angers him so much. I've tried empathizing. I've tried redirecting - offering the suggestion to take a break and come back to a video game later. Once in a while, he will do this. I've tried talking to him at a later time when he's calm how he can help himself calm down (physical things like deep breathing, pausing for a quick run or time on the trampoline). I've offered ideas of how to reframe the situation in his mind - that the main goal of a game is to enjoy playing regardless of the win/lose outcome, that a game isn't fun if it isn't challenging, that everybody loses games - even the best players in the world lose games, and I relayed to him something one of the Olympic swimmers said in an interview - that if you do your best, you'll feel good about yourself no matter the outcome win or lose, the metal is just a really awesome bonus (hugely paraphrasing). We've also talked about anger and other emotions in a 3rd person scenario like from the Inside Out movie. He hears me, it seems to make sense, but in the end he says he just gets really angry in the moment, and he can't seem to control it.
This afternoon when he got upset that I won the Connect4 game, I was trying to stay present with him and help him calm down. It wasn't working, and after a while I lost my cool. I yelled him that he needed to stop immediately. He did. I shocked him, and the rage ended immediately and he was able to move into a calmer form of being upset. It was like a switch flipped that he couldn't control. He calmly and kindly asked for me to give him some space. I apologized and gave him some space and said we'll come back to it when he's ready. I checked in with a couple times. I did some crying, talking to himself, and a little yelling to me; but mostly he talked himself down and through his upset. When he was ready, we reconnected and talked about it. This was when he said he just hates losing so much and it makes him angry.
The other day, we had a plumber here, and my son was playing his football game while the plumber was here without a peep. He may have taken a break at one point before he got upset; but as soon as the plumber left, he resumed his game, and the yelling and crying started again.
So these examples tell me he can control the anger for a short time, but then it will burst up if he doesn't walk away. He has told me other times that he figured out that if he pretends to be the game announcer / commentator when he's playing Madden, then that helps him to not get angry because his role is more neutral even though he's actually controlling one team. Another time he has put tape on his mouth to help as a physical reminder to not yell and cry - totally his idea. So he's working on it, and he has had some little successes, but I'm wearing down and it has affected his friendships. He is a child I have worked with since he was young on developing social skills to get along with other kids. Other kids want to play games, and he gets upset if he doesn't get his way or he loses.
And, honestly, it's getting really old to listen to all the time in the house with the video game playing. He is REALLY into tackle football right now. It has been a pleasure to watch the learning dance he has done around this new interest of his, and he really wants to play Madden and it's helping him to learn the game. I want him to have this fun resource, but my patience is worn down from the yelling and screaming, and I don't know how to help him any more. (My husband's patience is even thinner.) At one point, I asked my husband to take away the college football game because my son was really having a hard time with it. He was told that he could have it back after a few days if he thought he could play it without yelling and crying. I know it was a punishment, but I needed a break. He's been told he can only be allowed to play it if he can seem to be able to handle it. If not, then he's not ready to play it.
On a side note, his dad has a similar history. He doesn't play board games very often because he can't stand to lose either. He used to angrily shout while playing video games, but doesn't really do that any more. The first year I knew him, he flipped a checker board in a bit of anger because he thought I was going to win. I was so shocked, it seemed to come out of nowhere. So we don't play board games, other than once in a great while we will play as a family. He pretty much says he hates board games though. The other night, my son talked him into playing Connect4. The first game, my son was winning. My husband was trying to end the game prematurely stating no one would win. I suggested they play it out because I saw that my son could force a win. My husband dumped the checkers instead of giving my son the opportunity to play his winning piece. I left to run errands, and my son told me that they continued playing and my son won 5 games, and my husband won 4 games.
I admit I have a big fear that it's possible my son will not outgrow this because his dad hasn't. I don't know how else to help him or if what I'm doing is having any effect.
Hurn Family
"This afternoon when he got upset that I won the Connect4 game, I was trying to stay present with him and help him calm down. It wasn't working, and after a while I lost my cool. I yelled at him that he needed to stop immediately."
It sounds like a build up of pressure and it's a combination of his anger at losing and your anxiety about his reaction to losing. You can work on your anxiety using the methods you have suggested to him; take a deep breath, leave the room etc so you don't end up doing the very same thing he is doing to upset you; yelling.
Before it gets to the point where he has lost and is yelling, when you can see him losing his cool, you could say that you don't want to continue to play if he is going to react with the yelling if he loses and get up if he does. After all it's supposed to be enjoyable for both people when playing a game. Be honest with him about how it makes you feel, "the loud yelling/screaming doesn't make me feel good, it's scares me or hurts my ears" or words to those effect, instead of the focus being on him and changing him, let it instead be on how to makes you feel.
Telling him he has a problem that he needs help with may be getting him stuck and obsessed about fixing himself (eg sticky tape on mouth).
Maybe have a chat about being aware of others in the family, how it interrupts the household calmness for you or others when he yells and you are not expecting it.
Hope something here helps.
Sarah
On 23 Aug 2016, at 4:44 PM, tanyaz1@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
This afternoon when he got upset that I won the Connect4 game, I was trying to stay present with him and help him calm down. It wasn't working, and after a while I lost my cool. I yelled him that he needed to stop immediately.
Sarah Peshek
=-=I can play cooperative games with him so we can just enjoy a game without a winner or loser, but he has friends who want to play games with him and he can't maintain control of his emotions when he is losing or is afraid is going to lose. =-=
Do you let him win? While you can't make others do this, you absolutely can do it yourself (even every time) if he really wants to play competitive games with you. It can actually be intellectually challenging for YOU to think of ways to let him win without being obvious, ways to make it close but still let him have that feeling of victory. I've found that it helps me see the nature of game more clearly. This would also let him see exactly what being a gracious after a loss looks like.
When friends are coming over, you could put away the competitive games and get out lots of other stuff that they can do together. Have you tried asking him simply and directly what help he needs with it, where friends are concerned? Maybe help him with a simple line to use if he wants to be able to turn down a competitive game with a friend. "Nah, I'm not so into that game right now," or, "I'm not in the mood for that right now."
=-=And, honestly, it's getting really old to listen to all the time in the house with the video game playing. He is REALLY into tackle football right now. =-=
You should find ways to keep yourself calm and centered while he is upset. Be there, but don't allow his reaction to pull you in. Headphones might allow you to be nearby but listening to something soothing. Maybe you could practice a form of meditation or intentional breathing or yoga.
Does he have any interest in playing team sports (like tackle football) in real life? Or maybe online gaming, where he is on a team with others but not actually in the room with them? Being part of a group to win and lose with together would offer him a different experience with the nature of competition.
=-=I admit I have a big fear that it's possible my son will not outgrow this because his dad hasn't. I don't know how else to help him or if what I'm doing is having any effect.=-=
This might be the crux, here. You are fearful. You are wanting to control how your son plays games. Why are you trying to help/fix your son, whereas you accept your husband? It sounds like you and your husband have worked out a way to live together, even though he used to have the tendency to overturn checkerboards. And, if you suspect this difficulty in losing is somehow genetically linked, why are you so hard on yourself for not being able to change it?
What you're doing is NOT having an effect, really, or you wouldn't be asking this question. You listed several of your own reactions, ranging from talking a lot to yelling at him to taking away games as punishment. None of those things can make a person into a gracious loser. The more you talk and yell and punish about this, the more frustrated he probably becomes at himself.
Look for ways to make this issue softer, more comfortable. Do what you can to avoid the meltdown situations. If you've done your best prevention and he cries/screams because of a loss, accept that he has big feelings. Stop trying to make him stop. After the storm passes, allow yourself to learn from the situation. This will make you better at future prevention. One of the biggest shifts in my relationship with my daughter, who used to explode about things that seemed to me not to be worthy of such reactions, came when I realized that I didn't help her by trying to talk/yell/punish her out of those negative emotions. If she was upset, I could focus on 1) being present and available to assist her, 2) keeping her and other people safe, and 3) keeping myself calm. Frantic fixing was not helpful. There's a big difference between being calmly present and being panicked about stopping the meltdown NOW at any cost. I remember very clearly the first time I let her be. I didn't abandon her, but I sat quietly and focused my energy on breathing while she raged. It was hard - our kids' crying is supposed to get us to take action! To alleviate their suffering! To save the day! But our kids are human and they feel human stuff and we can't make them turn that off, even if it is uncomfortable. My daughter has been slowly learning ways to be calm, ways to ask for help, ways to live with difficult emotions. I have been slowly learning how to prevent explosive situations and what kind of help might be best in a brewing situation. All of this learning put together means that we now have a way to live more peacefully. It started when I stopped trying to fix her.
Peace,
Sarah Peshek
Sandra Dodd
-=-And, if you suspect this difficulty in losing is somehow genetically linked, why are you so hard on yourself for not being able to change it? -=-
I know! I know the answer.
Just because the dad wasn’t helped with ways to be calm doesn’t mean that an unschooled child whose parents are there to help him, can’t be gently coached toward ways to calm himself.
it’s not “fixing him,” but helping him cope better with the realities of his own biochemistry. Helping a child get around who has physical disabilities isn’t trying to “fix him.” Helping a blind child with ways to get around the house or the neighborhood isn’t "trying to fix him.”
-=- One of the biggest shifts in my relationship with my daughter, who used to explode about things that seemed to me not to be worthy of such reactions, came when I realized that I didn't help her by trying to talk/yell/punish her out of those negative emotions. If she was upset, I could focus on 1) being present and available to assist her, 2) keeping her and other people safe, and 3) keeping myself calm. Frantic fixing was not helpful.-=-
Yes to assistance and safety, but this all leaves out coaching, which I have seen help lots.
We can all picture the damage of going too far and trying to fix. I have also seen the damage when a family believes there IS no “fix” and the thing to do is to allow any and all behavior, gently accepting it, and NOT attempting to change a thing. It’s not being a good partner, to condone, encourage, or become complicit in behavior that harms the reputation or friendships of someone you love.
Kirby was explosive and didn’t like to lose, but within just a few years, others would never have known it. We didn’t yell or punish. We didn’t just focus on future prevention (though we got good at that, too). We helped him with thoughts and awareness (talking to him just a bit, when he was calm) so that he could help himself when he was out and away from the house with friends, or at the gaming shop.
http://sandradodd.com/coaching
I’m not home and have been really busy, and today and travelling across the UK, so I can’t be as thorough as sometimes.
I hope the person with the original question will find time to read carefully, over a few days, at the link above.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Sandra
I know! I know the answer.
Just because the dad wasn’t helped with ways to be calm doesn’t mean that an unschooled child whose parents are there to help him, can’t be gently coached toward ways to calm himself.
it’s not “fixing him,” but helping him cope better with the realities of his own biochemistry. Helping a child get around who has physical disabilities isn’t trying to “fix him.” Helping a blind child with ways to get around the house or the neighborhood isn’t "trying to fix him.”
-=- One of the biggest shifts in my relationship with my daughter, who used to explode about things that seemed to me not to be worthy of such reactions, came when I realized that I didn't help her by trying to talk/yell/punish her out of those negative emotions. If she was upset, I could focus on 1) being present and available to assist her, 2) keeping her and other people safe, and 3) keeping myself calm. Frantic fixing was not helpful.-=-
Yes to assistance and safety, but this all leaves out coaching, which I have seen help lots.
We can all picture the damage of going too far and trying to fix. I have also seen the damage when a family believes there IS no “fix” and the thing to do is to allow any and all behavior, gently accepting it, and NOT attempting to change a thing. It’s not being a good partner, to condone, encourage, or become complicit in behavior that harms the reputation or friendships of someone you love.
Kirby was explosive and didn’t like to lose, but within just a few years, others would never have known it. We didn’t yell or punish. We didn’t just focus on future prevention (though we got good at that, too). We helped him with thoughts and awareness (talking to him just a bit, when he was calm) so that he could help himself when he was out and away from the house with friends, or at the gaming shop.
http://sandradodd.com/coaching
I’m not home and have been really busy, and today and travelling across the UK, so I can’t be as thorough as sometimes.
I hope the person with the original question will find time to read carefully, over a few days, at the link above.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Sandra
reneehutch
One thing that has helped my youngest is watching youtubers. A couple of years ago she was having a tough time with the game Octodad and raging off and on throughout the day. Since it was because she was stuck at one particular point in the game, I looked up some lets plays to see how to get past that point. We watched a Markiplier letsplay, which did indeed help her get past the hard part, but to my surprise, it helped her deal with her emotions. She began imitating his reactions. Raging, but in a funny way, laughing at herself or the situation. The more Markiplier, Jacksepticeye, etc. videos she watched, the more tools she had to deal with her emotions. I guess it helps seeing how older, more experienced gamers deal with the frustration that can come up. Now she has her own channel. :)
semajrak@...
***Then, I won without really trying to, and he got very upset with yelling, screaming, and clear actions of anger with screaming through gritted teeth, strained and red face, banging his fist in his hands or on the table, and trying to reset the game so he could try to win instead.***
In the moment I would clearly say "Stop. That's not okay." Later, when he calms down, I would talk with him about how I thought it was okay to have his feelings about losing, but it wasn't okay to let those feelings negatively influence another person's experience. Also, he might feel better himself if he could cultivate a few skills to help manage those big feelings better. Again, when he's calm, offer some suggestions for things he might be able to try next time--breathing, taking a break, yelling into a pillow...
With many games, Ethan watches before he joins in. I think he gauges how he feels about the game and how invested he will be in winning or losing. If he thinks he can play without getting too emotional, he joins in. If he finds himself getting frustrated or upset, he drops out politely and continues to watch. He enjoys watching games. He's a pretty competitive person when he plays. His dad is too.
Being highly competitive has been a strength for my husband. I believe it can be a strength for Ethan too as he learns to be gracious about his accomplishments and let his disappointments fuel his own passion to improve his skills rather than negatively colour the experiences of those involved, including himself. That's what Doug and I focus on helping him with. I can see Ethan is getting better at this. He's thirteen now.
Ethan often likes to watch Doug and I play competitive games together. He'll set up a game for us and be the neutral player if there is one. Sometimes he'll invent a new role for himself if there isn't already a neutral player in the game. He'll be the person who hands out the dominoes, for example. He creates his own way of joining in the fun, while, at the same time, witnessing how a game is more conventionally played.
Sometimes Ethan sets up challenges for one or both of us in games. Like right now we are playing our own made-up version of the game "Suspend" in the evenings. Ethan will set up the initial structure in such a way as he thinks will be nearly impossible for Doug and I to build from. Then Ethan watches us try to navigate his challenge. Ethan wins if the structure falls as we're building, or he loses when we succeed to use all the pieces without the structure falling down. He doesn't really see it as winning or losing though. It's about the fun of trying to complete a seemingly impossible task. He's actually routing for us, just as we are inspired by his challenge. Something like that might create some distance for your son, helping him see competitive play in a way that's less personal perhaps.
Whether Ethan is a neutral player or actively trying to stump us with an impossible challenge, watching Doug and I work together seems to be very valuable to Ethan. Seeing how we embrace the challenge of the game or his challenges. Seeing how we handle defeat or victory. Watching us work together or further challenge the other. Watching us banter and/or encourage. I can see Ethan learns a lot. He seems to enjoys it very much, and has for years. Perhaps you could encourage your husband to join you in some sort of game play, being clear to your husband that his role would not be to win, but to help your son learn how to play a game for the fun of the challenge, winning or losing with grace and good gamesmanship.
For some people, games are invaluable for skill building, and the fun is the improvement in ability. My husband has a group of friends who he enjoys playing Starcraft with. His friends play as intensely and as seriously as he does. They really push each other. Sometimes they do yell and get frustrated, but they are rarely (if ever) disrespectful of each other or the other team members. After a couple of years of playing together, their team has reached Masters level, which, for them, was really exciting and quite an accomplishment.
Find the strength behind your son's motivation for playing games, and then find ways to help him achieve his goals. It's not likely as simple as he just always wants to win. There's probably more going on. Experiment with many ways of playing games with him. Find out what works and what doesn't. Build on what does work. Pay attention to why. Support that. His confidence and skills (and yours) will grow likely from there.
Karen James
lucy.web
My daughter, now 14, has very big feelings. When she was younger she behaved much like your son does with win/lose games. My own family - I mean myself, my parents and siblings - are very British middle class, and we go to great lengths to hide our emotions and feelings. That stiff upper lip thing ;) My husband's family are not like that at all, they tend to shout and throw and kick things when they are angry. I suspect that truly good mental health exists somewhere between the two.
We tried to help my daughter find ways to react less, or to hide her reactions. She is very in touch with her emotions and likes to talk about them and analyse them. She eventually told me that our attempts to help her hide her frustration at losing made her feel like we were asking her to not 'just be herself'. Like we wanted her to be someone different. It seemed to me she was describing the 'authentic self' that so many people who write about mental health talk about. And our attempts to get her to tone down the volume on her emotions were perceived by her as denying her authentic self. We continued to talk about these things over the years, but more about the concepts, not about her own behaviour, as such.
I remember one time she had been playing cards at her Grandma's house, and her Grandparents had talked to her about the concept of a 'poker face', and had tried to encourage her to develop a poker face. At their house she politely declined, saying she didn't think it was right to cover up her feelings to that extent. Her Grandparents were struck by how fluently she talked and thought about the concept, but they were also completely nonplussed by how firmly she was convinced that a poker face was not for her.
I think we have lost a couple of friends partly because of this issue along the way. But discussing it with my daughter enabled me to realise that I also felt somewhat stifled and on edge with these particular friends. Letting these friends drift away has actually left us happier.
Nowadays my daughter avoids playing certain types of games with certain types of people. She also has a punch bag, stress balls and other physical outlets for when her feelings are too big for her to contain them. She has learned how to distract herself with movies, music or running around the garden when she starts feeling overwhelmed with her emotions and doesn't want to actually get upset. Equally, sometimes, she allows herself to get upset, and lets it out.
Lucy
Sent from my iPad
We tried to help my daughter find ways to react less, or to hide her reactions. She is very in touch with her emotions and likes to talk about them and analyse them. She eventually told me that our attempts to help her hide her frustration at losing made her feel like we were asking her to not 'just be herself'. Like we wanted her to be someone different. It seemed to me she was describing the 'authentic self' that so many people who write about mental health talk about. And our attempts to get her to tone down the volume on her emotions were perceived by her as denying her authentic self. We continued to talk about these things over the years, but more about the concepts, not about her own behaviour, as such.
I remember one time she had been playing cards at her Grandma's house, and her Grandparents had talked to her about the concept of a 'poker face', and had tried to encourage her to develop a poker face. At their house she politely declined, saying she didn't think it was right to cover up her feelings to that extent. Her Grandparents were struck by how fluently she talked and thought about the concept, but they were also completely nonplussed by how firmly she was convinced that a poker face was not for her.
I think we have lost a couple of friends partly because of this issue along the way. But discussing it with my daughter enabled me to realise that I also felt somewhat stifled and on edge with these particular friends. Letting these friends drift away has actually left us happier.
Nowadays my daughter avoids playing certain types of games with certain types of people. She also has a punch bag, stress balls and other physical outlets for when her feelings are too big for her to contain them. She has learned how to distract herself with movies, music or running around the garden when she starts feeling overwhelmed with her emotions and doesn't want to actually get upset. Equally, sometimes, she allows herself to get upset, and lets it out.
Lucy
Sent from my iPad
Sandra Dodd
-=-to my surprise, it helped her deal with her emotions. She began imitating his reactions. -=-
This is wonderful.
-=-The more Markiplier, Jacksepticeye, etc. videos she watched, the more tools she had to deal with her emotions. I guess it helps seeing how older, more experienced gamers deal with the frustration that can come up.-=-
Recent conversations in my real life have included people brushing up on skills by watching YouTube—repairing a swamp cooler, installing tile, and brain surgery (seriously—but not all the same person or the same video :-)—but I hadn’t thought about it helping someone to accept and deal with frustration.
If Renee or anyone here wants to share a specific example, please do.
Sandra
This is wonderful.
-=-The more Markiplier, Jacksepticeye, etc. videos she watched, the more tools she had to deal with her emotions. I guess it helps seeing how older, more experienced gamers deal with the frustration that can come up.-=-
Recent conversations in my real life have included people brushing up on skills by watching YouTube—repairing a swamp cooler, installing tile, and brain surgery (seriously—but not all the same person or the same video :-)—but I hadn’t thought about it helping someone to accept and deal with frustration.
If Renee or anyone here wants to share a specific example, please do.
Sandra
Bernadette Lynn
=========We watched a Markiplier letsplay, which did indeed help her get past the hard part, but to my surprise, it helped her deal with her emotions. ========
This is one of the things which helped me get over my irrational dislike of Pokemon. My mother despised Pokemon and didn't hesitate to say so at length, so I grew up thinking that only stupid, uncreative people could possibly like it. It took a lot of effort for me to smile and let my children watch the TV show when they started asking, because of that. But I soon noticed that it actually has a lovely ethic of sportsmanship: the characters shake hands and thank each other at the end of fights, even when they've lost. They talk about it being a great match, or about how much they've learned, instead of getting upset. And then occasionally my children would thank each other after a board game and say it was a great match, even when they'd lost, because they were imitating Ash.
My son when he was little had more trouble losing than his older siblings, got more upset, so for a long time we let him win. We'd find ways to lose, sometimes obvious, sometimes not - he didn't seem to mind us deliberately losing, as long as he won. He spent a lot of time playing videogames with James (my husband/David's father) who'd let him get the best weapons and give him headstarts so he could win, and James would often play the hard parts of games for him, letting David take over to deal the final blow to the boss, or collect the level rewards. And we talked to him sometimes about how other people felt when he shouted or stopped the game, and how he could calm himself down.
David is now 13, and he takes losing in his stride, most of the time. He still gets very upset if people cheat, or act unfairly (though not screaming or slamming out of the room or anything like that). But he only seems to mind losing if he thinks he played badly, and then he'll shrug it off after a few moments of getting annoyed at himself.
My son when he was little had more trouble losing than his older siblings, got more upset, so for a long time we let him win. We'd find ways to lose, sometimes obvious, sometimes not - he didn't seem to mind us deliberately losing, as long as he won. He spent a lot of time playing videogames with James (my husband/David's father) who'd let him get the best weapons and give him headstarts so he could win, and James would often play the hard parts of games for him, letting David take over to deal the final blow to the boss, or collect the level rewards. And we talked to him sometimes about how other people felt when he shouted or stopped the game, and how he could calm himself down.
David is now 13, and he takes losing in his stride, most of the time. He still gets very upset if people cheat, or act unfairly (though not screaming or slamming out of the room or anything like that). But he only seems to mind losing if he thinks he played badly, and then he'll shrug it off after a few moments of getting annoyed at himself.
Bernadette.
Sandra Dodd
-=-My mother despised Pokemon and didn't hesitate to say so at length, so I grew up thinking that only stupid, uncreative people could possibly like it. It took a lot of effort for me to smile and let my children watch the TV show when they started asking, because of that. But I soon noticed that it actually has a lovely ethic of sportsmanship: the characters shake hands and thank each other at the end of fights, even when they've lost. They talk about it being a great match, or about how much they've learned, instead of getting upset. And then occasionally my children would thank each other after a board game and say it was a great match, even when they'd lost, because they were imitating Ash.-=-
When Pokemon collectible cards first came out, there was much noise among conservatives and among U.S. fundamentalist Christians about it being anti-Christian, and blasphemous (claims that in Japan there was a character called Peter ’n’ Paul or something like that—maybe someone here knows or remembers). SO much noise and going on in hopes that if LOTS of other families objected, they wouldn’t feel as pressured to buy their kids the cards. And the TV show was reviled as nothing but an advertisement for expensive cards that amounted to gambling because packets were bought sealed. And there was “evolution” in there. Even using the word denies “Creationism."
It’s possible, Bernadette, that your mom had been exposed to some of that flood of prejudice and argument.
I love that you let your kids watch the show, and discovered and now have shared the sweetness and kindness in it.
The more peace in any home, for whatever reasons, the more peace there is in that family.
Sandra
When Pokemon collectible cards first came out, there was much noise among conservatives and among U.S. fundamentalist Christians about it being anti-Christian, and blasphemous (claims that in Japan there was a character called Peter ’n’ Paul or something like that—maybe someone here knows or remembers). SO much noise and going on in hopes that if LOTS of other families objected, they wouldn’t feel as pressured to buy their kids the cards. And the TV show was reviled as nothing but an advertisement for expensive cards that amounted to gambling because packets were bought sealed. And there was “evolution” in there. Even using the word denies “Creationism."
It’s possible, Bernadette, that your mom had been exposed to some of that flood of prejudice and argument.
I love that you let your kids watch the show, and discovered and now have shared the sweetness and kindness in it.
The more peace in any home, for whatever reasons, the more peace there is in that family.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=- He hears me, it seems to make sense, but in the end he says he just gets really angry in the moment, and he can't seem to control it. -=-
He won’t always be as young as he is now.
-=-This afternoon when he got upset that I won the Connect4 game, I was trying to stay present with him and help him calm down. It wasn't working, and after a while I lost my cool. I yelled him that he needed to stop immediately. He did. I shocked him, and the rage ended immediately and he was able to move into a calmer form of being upset. -=-
I think an honest angry response from someone who IS usually able to choose how to act can be powerful. It’s reasonable, too. People DO get tired of over-the-top responses from a person. And when a family pretends that bad behavior is okay, they become part of the problem. By that I don’t mean that they should always point out the bad behavior, but neither should they say “No problem” about it. Faking anger, or yelling in a cold-blooded attempt to shock a person isn’t the same as what’s described above—attempts to be calming, and then a loud exasperation.
-=-it has affected his friendships. He is a child I have worked with since he was young on developing social skills to get along with other kids. Other kids want to play games, and he gets upset if he doesn't get his way or he loses. -=-
For a while, could you provide or recommend activities all the friends would enjoy that are less competitive? Or maybe have a code word with your son so that if he’s getting angry, you can call him away from the game for a moment? And if calling him away from the game turns into you apologizing to the other kids and asking them if they want to finish the game without him, still it might save him some friendships.
There were a few years when we avoided playing games with Kirby—when he was 8, 9, maybe 10. I would say I didn’t want to play if he was going to be angry about it. So sometimes I gave him another chance and sometimes we ended the game early. He didn’t want us to cheat to let him win. He didn’t want Holly (five years younger than he is) to “play wrong.” I used to let Holly make whatever move she wanted, on her turn, when she was too little to play, and even if it didn’t affect the other plays, it bothered him. He wanted everyone to play right, and full-on, AND for him to be the winner.
Maybe dice games would help a bit—dice can’t be controlled.
Another thing we did with good benefit a few times was to play on teams, so that the adult on his team could comment on the likelihood of the next move, or discuss options for their team, and then voice “the team”’s response. Kind of modelling better behavior, and partly keeping the emotion spread out and not focussed in one dangerous beam.
We also helped him see when he was getting angry, and to help him breathe or stand up and stretch or something, to relax and let the adrenaline subside.
But Kirby grew up to be a facilitator of other people’s gaming—was a Pokemon Gym Leader in the early card-tournament days, after he had played the game for a year or so at various book stores and gaming shops he was asked to oversee the game at a gaming shop, when he was 13. They hired him when he was 14, so he was getting paid, and he went on to help organize and judge Magic the Gathering tournaments, and other Collectible Card events. Later, he was a gamemaster for World of Warcraft, and was promoted to help train, oversee and encourage other gamemasters.
So an intense interest in games, even in a kid who’s volatile, still might be the beginning of a life of peaceful gaming. :-)
Sandra
He won’t always be as young as he is now.
-=-This afternoon when he got upset that I won the Connect4 game, I was trying to stay present with him and help him calm down. It wasn't working, and after a while I lost my cool. I yelled him that he needed to stop immediately. He did. I shocked him, and the rage ended immediately and he was able to move into a calmer form of being upset. -=-
I think an honest angry response from someone who IS usually able to choose how to act can be powerful. It’s reasonable, too. People DO get tired of over-the-top responses from a person. And when a family pretends that bad behavior is okay, they become part of the problem. By that I don’t mean that they should always point out the bad behavior, but neither should they say “No problem” about it. Faking anger, or yelling in a cold-blooded attempt to shock a person isn’t the same as what’s described above—attempts to be calming, and then a loud exasperation.
-=-it has affected his friendships. He is a child I have worked with since he was young on developing social skills to get along with other kids. Other kids want to play games, and he gets upset if he doesn't get his way or he loses. -=-
For a while, could you provide or recommend activities all the friends would enjoy that are less competitive? Or maybe have a code word with your son so that if he’s getting angry, you can call him away from the game for a moment? And if calling him away from the game turns into you apologizing to the other kids and asking them if they want to finish the game without him, still it might save him some friendships.
There were a few years when we avoided playing games with Kirby—when he was 8, 9, maybe 10. I would say I didn’t want to play if he was going to be angry about it. So sometimes I gave him another chance and sometimes we ended the game early. He didn’t want us to cheat to let him win. He didn’t want Holly (five years younger than he is) to “play wrong.” I used to let Holly make whatever move she wanted, on her turn, when she was too little to play, and even if it didn’t affect the other plays, it bothered him. He wanted everyone to play right, and full-on, AND for him to be the winner.
Maybe dice games would help a bit—dice can’t be controlled.
Another thing we did with good benefit a few times was to play on teams, so that the adult on his team could comment on the likelihood of the next move, or discuss options for their team, and then voice “the team”’s response. Kind of modelling better behavior, and partly keeping the emotion spread out and not focussed in one dangerous beam.
We also helped him see when he was getting angry, and to help him breathe or stand up and stretch or something, to relax and let the adrenaline subside.
But Kirby grew up to be a facilitator of other people’s gaming—was a Pokemon Gym Leader in the early card-tournament days, after he had played the game for a year or so at various book stores and gaming shops he was asked to oversee the game at a gaming shop, when he was 13. They hired him when he was 14, so he was getting paid, and he went on to help organize and judge Magic the Gathering tournaments, and other Collectible Card events. Later, he was a gamemaster for World of Warcraft, and was promoted to help train, oversee and encourage other gamemasters.
So an intense interest in games, even in a kid who’s volatile, still might be the beginning of a life of peaceful gaming. :-)
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-Being part of a group to win and lose with together would offer him a different experience with the nature of competition.-=-
And playing with older, calmer players might help more than others his age (maybe).
=-=I admit I have a big fear that it's possible my son will not outgrow this because his dad hasn't. I don't know how else to help him or if what I'm doing is having any effect.=-=
But was the dad unschooled? Was the dad so often in the presence of adults who were operating as his partner in learning?
The same biochemistry and quick adrenaline might be at play, but it’s possible that the dad had experiences that solidified his behaviors, and the son won’t have them. Or it’s possible that the dad was not helped to see options, and the son IS being helped.
Sandra
And playing with older, calmer players might help more than others his age (maybe).
=-=I admit I have a big fear that it's possible my son will not outgrow this because his dad hasn't. I don't know how else to help him or if what I'm doing is having any effect.=-=
But was the dad unschooled? Was the dad so often in the presence of adults who were operating as his partner in learning?
The same biochemistry and quick adrenaline might be at play, but it’s possible that the dad had experiences that solidified his behaviors, and the son won’t have them. Or it’s possible that the dad was not helped to see options, and the son IS being helped.
Sandra
clarissa.harwell@...
My son is 8 and is very black and white in his thinking, for now. His anger is expressed with "I hate you" or "My life sucks" and he often has a negative first reaction to new situations. Watching his favorite YouTubers has been impactful in him handling his big feelings and reactions. They definitely still occur, but more and more often, he is willing and able to think of a situation in which Markiplier, Pewdiepie, Jack Septiceye (among others) handled a tough situation and to consider it. Recently, he was watching a YouTuber (his name is Corey but I can't think of the name of his channel) who moved to Alaska with his girlfriend and was experiencing somewhat of a culture shock. My son talked about how great it was that Corey could talk about his likes and dislikes and be willing to live in a new place even though it came with some discomfort. He said "Maybe this will help other people see that new things can be good even if they are hard."
Another quick example - my daughter is 10 and when she needs to release some big feelings, she often watches or listens to sad stories/music on YouTube to help her access her feelings, and then comes to me and cries and shares how the music or video led to her thinking about her feelings. It has really been a wonderful tool for her to tune in to her own feelings.
I have seen SO much empathy and relational skills gained from watching YouTube!
- Clarissa
sukaynalabboun@...
---My son is 8 and is very black and white in his thinking, for now. His anger is expressed with "I hate you" or "My life sucks" and he often has a negative first reaction to new situations---
This sounds like more a mainstream kids response than what I get with my unschooled kids. With three teens (youngest will be 13 next month), I never hear this. I would be alarmed if I did. I would seriously look into more ways to connect and facilitate his interests; I would try to spend more time together to understand how or why his life sucks.
Youtube is very useful; my kids spend loads of time doing many things online or using apps. They also talk to me about their needs- we hang out basically all the time- and they are usually positive and excited about their days and opportunities to do things, go places. I make sure they get time to relax and do their thing, and time to go out or socialize etc according to what is comfortable for them. We are introverts with lots of hobbies or interests, husband is an accommodating extrovert.
I have never, ever heard that they hate either of us or that life sucks ( blanket statement). Maybe do more. Maybe BE with him more.
This sounds like more a mainstream kids response than what I get with my unschooled kids. With three teens (youngest will be 13 next month), I never hear this. I would be alarmed if I did. I would seriously look into more ways to connect and facilitate his interests; I would try to spend more time together to understand how or why his life sucks.
Youtube is very useful; my kids spend loads of time doing many things online or using apps. They also talk to me about their needs- we hang out basically all the time- and they are usually positive and excited about their days and opportunities to do things, go places. I make sure they get time to relax and do their thing, and time to go out or socialize etc according to what is comfortable for them. We are introverts with lots of hobbies or interests, husband is an accommodating extrovert.
I have never, ever heard that they hate either of us or that life sucks ( blanket statement). Maybe do more. Maybe BE with him more.
Ali Zeljo
---My son is 8 and is very black and white in his thinking, for now. His anger is expressed with "I hate you" or "My life sucks" and he often has a negative first reaction to new situations---
This sounds like more a mainstream kids response than what I get with my unschooled kids. With three teens (youngest will be 13 next month), I never hear this. I would be alarmed if I did. I would seriously look into more ways to connect and facilitate his interests; I would try to spend more time together to understand how or why his life sucks.
I have 4 unschooled kids (16 down to 5) who use these terms! Actually my 16 year old does not use them much anymore. I am pretty sure they get the phrases from YouTubers and other gamers. Just because a person uses an extreme phrase doesn't mean they are speaking from the heart! My 13 year old has moved away from using those phrases recently, as he has come to fully understand the meaning of the popular phrases like, "I hate my life." I have tried responding by asking if that's really true for you? And almost always my 13 year old says, "No. Come on mom, it's just a phrase!" I always think of Sandra's advice about avoiding that type of writing, speaking and thinking. And sometimes, when I feel he can take it, I remind him that the story he tells about his life will shape it to a degree. Still he shrugs me off as if he's thinking I misunderstand his generation of language nuances. And maybe he is right.Ali
K Pennell
I didn't take it that way. I was assuming more that he didn't have the language to express what he was really feeling (a lot of kids don't), but You Tube helped him do that. I thought it was great.
From: "sukaynalabboun@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 5:01 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: child crying and screaming when losing a game or video game
---My son is 8 and is very black and white in his thinking, for now. His anger is expressed with "I hate you" or "My life sucks" and he often has a negative first reaction to new situations---
This sounds like more a mainstream kids response than what I get with my unschooled kids. With three teens (youngest will be 13 next month), I never hear this. I would be alarmed if I did. I would seriously look into more ways to connect and facilitate his interests; I would try to spend more time together to understand how or why his life sucks.
Youtube is very useful; my kids spend loads of time doing many things online or using apps. They also talk to me about their needs- we hang out basically all the time- and they are usually positive and excited about their days and opportunities to do things, go places. I make sure they get time to relax and do their thing, and time to go out or socialize etc according to what is comfortable for them. We are introverts with lots of hobbies or interests, husband is an accommodating extrovert.
I have never, ever heard that they hate either of us or that life sucks ( blanket statement). Maybe do more. Maybe BE with him more.
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Stacey Valnes
I thought it was great as well. I was happy for you to hear the hope in your writing. It helped me feel compassion and warmth. Keep it up and soon "my life sucks" will be "I'm frustrated" or better yet " my life is awesome"!
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Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 27, 2016, at 7:39 AM, K Pennell mrsringsabre@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
I didn't take it that way. I was assuming more that he didn't have the language to express what he was really feeling (a lot of kids don't), but You Tube helped him do that. I thought it was great.
From: "sukaynalabboun@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 5:01 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: child crying and screaming when losing a game or video game
---My son is 8 and is very black and white in his thinking, for now. His anger is expressed with "I hate you" or "My life sucks" and he often has a negative first reaction to new situations---
This sounds like more a mainstream kids response than what I get with my unschooled kids. With three teens (youngest will be 13 next month), I never hear this. I would be alarmed if I did. I would seriously look into more ways to connect and facilitate his interests; I would try to spend more time together to understand how or why his life sucks.
Youtube is very useful; my kids spend loads of time doing many things online or using apps. They also talk to me about their needs- we hang out basically all the time- and they are usually positive and excited about their days and opportunities to do things, go places. I make sure they get time to relax and do their thing, and time to go out or socialize etc according to what is comfortable for them. We are introverts with lots of hobbies or interests, husband is an accommodating extrovert.
I have never, ever heard that they hate either of us or that life sucks ( blanket statement). Maybe do more. Maybe BE with him more.sukaynalabboun@...
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genesisripley@...
---This sounds like more a mainstream kids response than what I get with my unschooled kids. With three teens (youngest will be 13 next month), I never hear this. I would be alarmed if I did. I would seriously look into more ways to connect and facilitate his interests; I would try to spend more time together to understand how or why his life sucks.---
I think this is possibly a jump to conclusions without knowing more about the child or that family's dynamics. My son is 9 and actually learned these phrases and some of the contexts in which they are used from watching YouTube gamers. He's taken interest in YouTube in the recent past (about 6 months ago or so) and now says these things when he looses a game or is frustrated about something else. My kid loves his life and says so all the time. Also, some kids just have a flair for the more dramatic!😉 My son's best friend and younger sister have both been known to use similar phrases pretty regularly when they get frustrated, bubbling with the emotion behind them. They are young and have a lot of fire and their joys are just as dramatic. We just love them, and find gentle ways to drop seeds of support that work for them.
To add to the conversation about how YouTube has helped my son emotionally: He loves all things sports, 1st person video gaming and is an avid board game player (especially chess.) He happens to be pretty good at baseball, basketball and chess and is also big for his age, thus he finds himself often (by his choice) on teams with older schooled kids or chess tournaments and classes playing with and against older opponenents. My son, has a very mellow temperament and though fiercely competitive, has a very sweet demeanor and takes loosing in stride. It's just how he is. But, when he was placed on these teams with mostly older schooled kids, he being the only homeschooled (oh...and if they ever knew, unschooled) kid, would get questioned about what he knows, teased etc. While most of our experiences have been good ones, we've had a couple of coaches "with the boys will be boys" attitude. Thus I instantly had to turn myself into a hovercraft, hanging around the dugout and needing to support him. He was glad I was there, he didn't understand why these kids would treat him this way or why the coaches would allow it (and yell at the kids for missing a catch or a shot etc.) I reminded him that he could leave this (one in particular) baseball team at any point. He refused to be run off, but for a while, he was distrustful of coaches he met thereafter (now, he just observes them to see what he's dealing with.) Anyway, from watching some of these YouTube gamers he began to gain a language that helped him navigate these situations. He's developed a sort of "spice" that he has woven into his being, which allows him to remain his sweet laid back self, but also let kids know when he needs to that he is not to be messed with. He is respectful and clear and holds his space powerfully. He and I talk about how he feels on his teams and in competitions, we stay in dialog about it and he tells me he feels much more confident in these circles and hasn't wanted me to hover in a while. I was really surprised and didn't expect this type of learning from you-tube and this isn't the only example.. In the very beginning I had "that Waldorfy Unschooler" mentality which (tongue in cheek, but not really) felt all screens were evil. So it has been a beautiful opening that my son has gifted me, simply by being allowed to be and explore as he needs.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have never, ever heard that they hate either of us or that life sucks ( blanket statement). Maybe do more. Maybe BE with him more.-=-
I’m surprised too, when I heard kids have said things like that. I hope the parents aren’t letting such negativity go by as though it’s not harmful to both the speaker and his targets.
Sandra
I’m surprised too, when I heard kids have said things like that. I hope the parents aren’t letting such negativity go by as though it’s not harmful to both the speaker and his targets.
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
I have one child who screams "I hate you!" and one child who has never done that. It's a personality thing. The more volatile child needs space when he's angry; the more I try to fix it, the worse it is. When it happens I will tell him once, in the moment or not, that I don't like being spoken to like that. But I also know that he won't do it forever because his ability to communicate with words in the moment gets better all the time. If a child's emotions are ahead of their language, they can get really frustrated. I would imagine that even a ten year old, especially one with really strong emotions, could be short of words for his feelings.
It seems like kids are really emotionally resourceful. If you fill their cup completely, they get another cup! If no one fills the cup, they get used to an unfilled cup. So when I see that my kids have an unfilled cup, sometimes I have to assess whether it is in my power to fix the problem, or whether I have to just hang out with them and be with their problem with them, or whether they need space to navigate the problem themselves. My kids both need a lot of space. Most of what I can do is just acknowledge the crisis, express my feelings, and let it rest.
Sarah
Sandra Dodd
-=-It seems like kids are really emotionally resourceful. If you fill their cup completely, they get another cup! If no one fills the cup, they get used to an unfilled cup. -=-
This is not good unschooling advice. You’ve set up a situation that suggests that emotional support is measurable and there can be more than a full cup. Please don’t create constructs that aren’t defensible, or that aren’t clear. Clarity is very important.
If a mother is not providing some sort of support, it’s not good for the family. A child who is used to an unfilled cup can become a danger to himself and others. I don’t see a benefit in the analogy; I see flaws.
There are problems with “have to” and with “just.”
-=-So when I see that my kids have an unfilled cup, sometimes I have to assess whether it is in my power to fix the problem, or whether I have to just hang out with them and be with their problem with them, or whether they need space to navigate the problem themselves. My kids both need a lot of space. Most of what I can do is just acknowledge the crisis, express my feelings, and let it rest.
-=-
A crisis shouldn’t be “an unfilled cup.”
If a child is expressing himself to others in a harmful way—in a way that hurts him as a person, and that can hurt those who hear it—a parent who doesn’t attempt to help him see the problem is no, in my opinion, being a good partner.
Perhaps the problem can’t be fixed immediately, but “just” hanging out if negativity is huge seems to me to condone, accept, encourage.
Sandra
This is not good unschooling advice. You’ve set up a situation that suggests that emotional support is measurable and there can be more than a full cup. Please don’t create constructs that aren’t defensible, or that aren’t clear. Clarity is very important.
If a mother is not providing some sort of support, it’s not good for the family. A child who is used to an unfilled cup can become a danger to himself and others. I don’t see a benefit in the analogy; I see flaws.
There are problems with “have to” and with “just.”
-=-So when I see that my kids have an unfilled cup, sometimes I have to assess whether it is in my power to fix the problem, or whether I have to just hang out with them and be with their problem with them, or whether they need space to navigate the problem themselves. My kids both need a lot of space. Most of what I can do is just acknowledge the crisis, express my feelings, and let it rest.
-=-
A crisis shouldn’t be “an unfilled cup.”
If a child is expressing himself to others in a harmful way—in a way that hurts him as a person, and that can hurt those who hear it—a parent who doesn’t attempt to help him see the problem is no, in my opinion, being a good partner.
Perhaps the problem can’t be fixed immediately, but “just” hanging out if negativity is huge seems to me to condone, accept, encourage.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=- I am pretty sure they get the phrases from YouTubers and other gamers. Just because a person uses an extreme phrase doesn't mean they are speaking from the heart! -=-
If they’re not aware of the strength of the words, they shouldn’t use them.
If I hit someone with my car, it doesn’t matter that I didn’t mean to.
If someone says something hurtful or harsh, or something that could (honestly, in some cases) harm the family’s reputation or acceptance among friends, or that could offend grandparents or neighbors or whatever, it’s not cool for the mom to calmly accept it.
I know a family whose youngish child watches videos with bad language but the original deal with the parents was that he could watch them IF he didn’t repeat the bad language. It was an easy, sensible deal to make and he stuck by it without difficulty or hardship.
If any parent here is thinking that unschoolers should, or must, or have to allow children to use bad language or to say “my life sucks” or “I hate you” to a mother, please don’t think so. And those who have for ANY reason come to think it’s no big deal, please reconsider.
-=-I always think of Sandra's advice about avoiding that type of writing, speaking and thinking. And sometimes, when I feel he can take it, I remind him that the story he tells about his life will shape it to a degree. Still he shrugs me off as if he's thinking I misunderstand his generation of language nuances. And maybe he is right.
-=-
I would say that he can be as negative as he wants when he’s grown and elsewhere, but that it’s not a good thing to do in your home, where it can hurt your feelings, or among your friends where it can harm your reputation. If he’s old enough to discuss it, he’s old enough to be a partner in a solution.
-=-I remind him that the story he tells about his life will shape it to a degree.-=-
That is an understatement. Negativity IS negativity. It’s not “to a degree” negativity. It’s pollution of the air, of the soul, of the relationships.
Just because “his generation” is that way doesn’t mean parents “have to” accept, hear, encourage it.
Sandra
If they’re not aware of the strength of the words, they shouldn’t use them.
If I hit someone with my car, it doesn’t matter that I didn’t mean to.
If someone says something hurtful or harsh, or something that could (honestly, in some cases) harm the family’s reputation or acceptance among friends, or that could offend grandparents or neighbors or whatever, it’s not cool for the mom to calmly accept it.
I know a family whose youngish child watches videos with bad language but the original deal with the parents was that he could watch them IF he didn’t repeat the bad language. It was an easy, sensible deal to make and he stuck by it without difficulty or hardship.
If any parent here is thinking that unschoolers should, or must, or have to allow children to use bad language or to say “my life sucks” or “I hate you” to a mother, please don’t think so. And those who have for ANY reason come to think it’s no big deal, please reconsider.
-=-I always think of Sandra's advice about avoiding that type of writing, speaking and thinking. And sometimes, when I feel he can take it, I remind him that the story he tells about his life will shape it to a degree. Still he shrugs me off as if he's thinking I misunderstand his generation of language nuances. And maybe he is right.
-=-
I would say that he can be as negative as he wants when he’s grown and elsewhere, but that it’s not a good thing to do in your home, where it can hurt your feelings, or among your friends where it can harm your reputation. If he’s old enough to discuss it, he’s old enough to be a partner in a solution.
-=-I remind him that the story he tells about his life will shape it to a degree.-=-
That is an understatement. Negativity IS negativity. It’s not “to a degree” negativity. It’s pollution of the air, of the soul, of the relationships.
Just because “his generation” is that way doesn’t mean parents “have to” accept, hear, encourage it.
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
I was not clear, you're right. The unfilled cup child is a neglected child, was the point I was trying to make.
It's your list and you are entitled to determine what constitutes good advice here. That's fair. I won't try to argue with you. My son is working through intense emotions that at six sometimes find their expression in "I hate you!" and I don't feel traumatized by it nor does it feel like partnering to keep talking at him about it when he's asking me for space.
Sarah
On Saturday, August 27, 2016, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:-=-It seems like kids are really emotionally resourceful. If you fill their cup completely, they get another cup! If no one fills the cup, they get used to an unfilled cup. -=-
This is not good unschooling advice. You’ve set up a situation that suggests that emotional support is measurable and there can be more than a full cup. Please don’t create constructs that aren’t defensible, or that aren’t clear. Clarity is very important.
If a mother is not providing some sort of support, it’s not good for the family. A child who is used to an unfilled cup can become a danger to himself and others. I don’t see a benefit in the analogy; I see flaws.
There are problems with “have to” and with “just.”
-=-So when I see that my kids have an unfilled cup, sometimes I have to assess whether it is in my power to fix the problem, or whether I have to just hang out with them and be with their problem with them, or whether they need space to navigate the problem themselves. My kids both need a lot of space. Most of what I can do is just acknowledge the crisis, express my feelings, and let it rest.
-=-
A crisis shouldn’t be “an unfilled cup.”
If a child is expressing himself to others in a harmful way—in a way that hurts him as a person, and that can hurt those who hear it—a parent who doesn’t attempt to help him see the problem is no, in my opinion, being a good partner.
Perhaps the problem can’t be fixed immediately, but “just” hanging out if negativity is huge seems to me to condone, accept, encourage.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=--I think this is possibly a jump to conclusions without knowing more about the child or that family's dynamics. -=-
Possibly, but I don’t think so.
-=-I think this is possibly a jump to conclusions without knowing more about the child or that family's dynamics. My son is 9 and actually learned these phrases and some of the contexts in which they are used from watching YouTube gamers. He's taken interest in YouTube in the recent past (about 6 months ago or so) and now says these things when he looses a game or is frustrated about something else. My kid loves his life and says so all the time. -=-
Is this about a child who loves his life and says so all the time?
That cannot also be a child who says “I hate you” (to a parent) and “My life sucks.”
Important detail:
-=- While most of our experiences have been good ones, we've had a couple of coaches "with the boys will be boys" attitude. Thus I instantly had to turn myself into a hovercraft, hanging around the dugout and needing to support him. -=-
You did not “instantly have to” but you chose to. If you’re thinking, and writing, and posting “have to” you’re not looking at choices. Please catch any “have to” you’re about to post and rephrase.
Sandra
Possibly, but I don’t think so.
-=-I think this is possibly a jump to conclusions without knowing more about the child or that family's dynamics. My son is 9 and actually learned these phrases and some of the contexts in which they are used from watching YouTube gamers. He's taken interest in YouTube in the recent past (about 6 months ago or so) and now says these things when he looses a game or is frustrated about something else. My kid loves his life and says so all the time. -=-
Is this about a child who loves his life and says so all the time?
That cannot also be a child who says “I hate you” (to a parent) and “My life sucks.”
Important detail:
-=- While most of our experiences have been good ones, we've had a couple of coaches "with the boys will be boys" attitude. Thus I instantly had to turn myself into a hovercraft, hanging around the dugout and needing to support him. -=-
You did not “instantly have to” but you chose to. If you’re thinking, and writing, and posting “have to” you’re not looking at choices. Please catch any “have to” you’re about to post and rephrase.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-My son is working through intense emotions that at six sometimes find their expression in "I hate you!" and I don't feel traumatized by it nor does it feel like partnering to keep talking at him about it when he's asking me for space. -=-
Either you’ve misunderstood me or are misrepresenting me.
I didn’t ask you to keep talking at him. I never ask anyone to “talk at” anyone.
When he is NOT asking you for space, ask if he hates you. If he does, change things up. If he doesn’t, ask him not to say it.
That’s talking to, not talking at.
Very many parents talk too much.
Lots are sweet and sing-songy to their children even whether the children are being sweet and thoughtful or loud and rude. It’s not a way to help children be more reasonable.
NOT helping a child see that words can harm is not being a good partner. If the words “I hate you” don’t bother you, how will he learn not to say it to his dad or grandparents, siblings, cousins, neighbors?
There are easy, direct possibilities.
“I hate you.”
“I hope you don’t; I love you.” And no more. Don’t stay, don’t encourage, don’t “talk at” (and please don’t suggest that I have asked you to “talk at” anyone).
Words DO matter. I’m glad for people to share stories, but words do matter.
http://sandradodd.com/semantics
Sandra
Either you’ve misunderstood me or are misrepresenting me.
I didn’t ask you to keep talking at him. I never ask anyone to “talk at” anyone.
When he is NOT asking you for space, ask if he hates you. If he does, change things up. If he doesn’t, ask him not to say it.
That’s talking to, not talking at.
Very many parents talk too much.
Lots are sweet and sing-songy to their children even whether the children are being sweet and thoughtful or loud and rude. It’s not a way to help children be more reasonable.
NOT helping a child see that words can harm is not being a good partner. If the words “I hate you” don’t bother you, how will he learn not to say it to his dad or grandparents, siblings, cousins, neighbors?
There are easy, direct possibilities.
“I hate you.”
“I hope you don’t; I love you.” And no more. Don’t stay, don’t encourage, don’t “talk at” (and please don’t suggest that I have asked you to “talk at” anyone).
Words DO matter. I’m glad for people to share stories, but words do matter.
http://sandradodd.com/semantics
Sandra
Ali Zeljo
--If any parent here is thinking that unschoolers should, or must, or
have to allow children to use bad language or to say “my life sucks” or
“I hate you” to a mother, please don’t think so. And those who have for
ANY reason come to think it’s no big deal, please reconsider.---
It is interesting that this same child of mine also often says how much he loves his life and how lucky he is to have a mom who is so relaxed compared to his friends' parents (who restrict access to technology mainly). I do think this child of mine is very happy. But he is also a child who feels emotions so strongly and tends to go to extremes with his descriptions. Now that he is older, he no longer outwardly rages the way he did even in a few years ago. Maybe I have been so pleased with this maturity, that I have been complacent in examining this other aspect of his expression of frustration. That is an understatement. Negativity IS negativity. It’s not “to a degree” negativity. It’s pollution of the air, of the soul, of the relationships.
Just because “his generation” is that way doesn’t mean parents “have to” accept, hear, encourage it.
genesisripley@...
---My son is 8 and is very black and white in his thinking, for now. His anger is expressed with "I hate you" or "My life sucks" and he often has a negative first reaction to new situations.---
I also didn't see any framing that his anger was being directed at another person. I didn't read it that way. My son will scream these things at batman on the screen, or to the makers of the game. He also sings when he plays.
Still, I think some kids just need more suport here. Indeed, there would need to be an immediate stepping in if another child is the recipient of the off gassing. Later, helping a child understand context of the situation, helping them grow skills to create more workable responses over time (clearly the recipient will need support too, but this conversation is focusing on the aggressor.) I believe it happens often that a child who has passionate responses of these sort may not feel supported, might feel they don't matter, might feel angry and be dearly in need more of more mindful, purposeful attention from the parents. But here in this forum, and in reading this mom's post, with little detail about her situation, I didn't get that this was the kind of situation she was in.
Genesis
genesisripley@...
-=-While most of our experiences have been good ones, we've had a couple of coaches "with the boys will be boys" attitude. Thus I instantly had to turn myself into a hovercraft, hanging around the dugout and needing to support him. -=-
----You did not “instantly have to” but you chose to. If you’re thinking, and writing, and posting “have to” you’re not looking at choices. Please catch any “have to” you’re about to post and rephrase.----
----You did not “instantly have to” but you chose to. If you’re thinking, and writing, and posting “have to” you’re not looking at choices. Please catch any “have to” you’re about to post and rephrase.----
Indeed you are right, it was definitely something I chose to do (and I knew it was a choice at the time, although I didn't say to myself, "I'm going to make the choice to become a hovercraft and drift over my son's team's dugout." I just did it. My writing was intended to be playful as I often write how I speak. But I do respect why you need to keep precise language here. Particularly for those trying to help. I will do a better job of editing next time. Sorry about that.
Genesis
clarissa.harwell@...
Hi there, I was the one who post about my son saying "I hate you" and "My life sucks" at times when he is angry. I'd like to clarify and offer some more info; from the responses to my post, I think maybe I didn't include enough info. When my own nervous system is hyper-aroused and I'm having huge feelings, I sometimes have thoughts similar to the ones my son expresses when he's angry. I don't say them aloud, though, and I am quickly able to shift my perspective from that level of negativity. He is less able to do that, at age 8, than I am at age 38.
---In [email protected], <Sandra@...> wrote :
When he's happy, he readily expresses how much he loves his life and he often tells my husband and me how much he loves us. Words do matter, and we often respond to his angry expression with "I love you even when you're feeling hateful" or something akin to that. He knows his words have an affect on others but talking at any length to him when he is flooded with big feelings is not helpful. Later, when he's calm, we sometimes talk about it while we are snuggling or playing but not every time. Sometimes, we answer with something very absurd and silly and it helps us move to a less negative space.
My 10 year old has occasionally said similar things when she is very upset but very rarely these days...it was something she did more when she was younger.
Thanks,
Clarissa
---In [email protected], <Sandra@...> wrote :
-=--I think this is possibly a jump to conclusions without knowing more about the child or that family's dynamics. -=-
Possibly, but I don’t think so.
-=-I think this is possibly a jump to conclusions without knowing more about the child or that family's dynamics. My son is 9 and actually learned these phrases and some of the contexts in which they are used from watching YouTube gamers. He's taken interest in YouTube in the recent past (about 6 months ago or so) and now says these things when he looses a game or is frustrated about something else. My kid loves his life and says so all the time. -=-
Is this about a child who loves his life and says so all the time?
That cannot also be a child who says “I hate you” (to a parent) and “My life sucks.”
Important detail:
-=- While most of our experiences have been good ones, we've had a couple of coaches "with the boys will be boys" attitude. Thus I instantly had to turn myself into a hovercraft, hanging around the dugout and needing to support him. -=-
You did not “instantly have to” but you chose to. If you’re thinking, and writing, and posting “have to” you’re not looking at choices. Please catch any “have to” you’re about to post and rephrase.
Sandra
Possibly, but I don’t think so.
-=-I think this is possibly a jump to conclusions without knowing more about the child or that family's dynamics. My son is 9 and actually learned these phrases and some of the contexts in which they are used from watching YouTube gamers. He's taken interest in YouTube in the recent past (about 6 months ago or so) and now says these things when he looses a game or is frustrated about something else. My kid loves his life and says so all the time. -=-
Is this about a child who loves his life and says so all the time?
That cannot also be a child who says “I hate you” (to a parent) and “My life sucks.”
Important detail:
-=- While most of our experiences have been good ones, we've had a couple of coaches "with the boys will be boys" attitude. Thus I instantly had to turn myself into a hovercraft, hanging around the dugout and needing to support him. -=-
You did not “instantly have to” but you chose to. If you’re thinking, and writing, and posting “have to” you’re not looking at choices. Please catch any “have to” you’re about to post and rephrase.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
A couple of times when Kirby was young (+/- 11?) he expressed himself in what seemed too loud and negative a way and I said okay, then where DO you want to live? I made a couple of concrete suggestions, with a relative (by name) or a friend (by name). I said if that would be better we could provide money to help them with groceries and he could live there.
For me, I felt better letting him know there might actually be options. Then when he was calmer he felt a bit that he was choosing to stay home—choosing not to pursue those options. And he probably thought about them, and decided it wasn’t so bad where he was (compared to the nearish and stated alternatives). At the same time, I tried to amend the factors that were frustrating him (sometimes having to do with younger siblings, or scheduling, or something I could help with to stave off a future problem).
When someone feels stuck or crowded or powerless in some aspect, the pressure can build up and blast out in a seemingly unrelated direction. Rather than accepting the blow-ups, backing up to what happened before that might help. Hunger? Lack of sleep? Need for physical activitiy or more down time / alone time, in some people, can bring them near tears.
Sandra
For me, I felt better letting him know there might actually be options. Then when he was calmer he felt a bit that he was choosing to stay home—choosing not to pursue those options. And he probably thought about them, and decided it wasn’t so bad where he was (compared to the nearish and stated alternatives). At the same time, I tried to amend the factors that were frustrating him (sometimes having to do with younger siblings, or scheduling, or something I could help with to stave off a future problem).
When someone feels stuck or crowded or powerless in some aspect, the pressure can build up and blast out in a seemingly unrelated direction. Rather than accepting the blow-ups, backing up to what happened before that might help. Hunger? Lack of sleep? Need for physical activitiy or more down time / alone time, in some people, can bring them near tears.
Sandra