Jennifer Thomson

Hi everyone,
I've been reading on this list for a while.  I have a 7 1/2 year old son who when he was in school (until October 2014, 1st grade), and was daignosed there with ADHD, Snesory Processing Disorder and Emotional Disregulation.  We are now home schooling and just in December I dropped our sreen limits on his ipad usage.  As a result, he is literally on the ipad 12 hours a day, and has interest in very little else.  Do other people on the list have experience with this with non neuro-typical kids?  
I keep reading about how addictive screens can be for the non neuro typical.  I want to give him his freedom, but I am sick with worry that in his case, it might not be the right choice.  Please share your experiences with me.

Warmly,
Jenn

Alex & Brian Polikowsky

Screens don't cause addiction. 

No one is doing screen time. It is like saying your child is doing paper time if he spends his time reading, drawing, cutting paper , making paper things etc

What is your child really doing? Have you stopped to pay attention and join him?

Would you be fearful if he spent his time doing " paper time"?

It is really dismissive when parents say all their kids do is screen time. They are not really looking at what the child is doing but listening to pseudoscientific writings from fear mongering writers. 

For some people, independent of neuron typical or not, learning about the world is much easier with the help of technology to buffer them from social interactions.

What is best: to learn about giraffes or how a motor works by seeing it or reading some words I a book? What about a description of the  China Wall versus a video documentary of it?

So if your child spent hours looking a videos about Antarctica is that not as good as him reading from a book?
I would think it is MUCH better but you see parents freak out about "screens" and praise of the child is reading all day.

Here are some good links to start:





The Principles of unschooling work for every child, independent of being neurotypical or not.

Alex Polikowsky
 
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 28, 2016, at 11:00 AM, Jennifer Thomson jthomsonquazi@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

Hi everyone,
I've been reading on this list for a while.  I have a 7 1/2 year old son who when he was in school (until October 2014, 1st grade), and was daignosed there with ADHD, Snesory Processing Disorder and Emotional Disregulation.  We are now home schooling and just in December I dropped our sreen limits on his ipad usage.  As a result, he is literally on the ipad 12 hours a day, and has interest in very little else.  Do other people on the list have experience with this with non neuro-typical kids?  
I keep reading about how addictive screens can be for the non neuro typical.  I want to give him his freedom, but I am sick with worry that in his case, it might not be the right choice.  Please share your experiences with me.

Warmly,
Jenn

Sarah Thompson

I'm going to contribute my observations, some of whih have to do with professional training, but I do not have a child with ASD and if this is wrong then that will be useful to me as well.

It does seem to be the case that different types of brains respond differently to computer technology. This might mean that as the parent, your relationship with your child's relationship might not be exactly the same as other parents experience. From an unschooling perspective, it does not mean that your attitude will be any different. If it is a passion, be there in it and with him. If the experience is particularly intense for him, be there MORE. He needs you to create a healthy environment for him to explore this interest. It might take him longer to sort out the most comfortable dynamic for himself than it will for some other kids.

It would seem intuitive to me that a child who responds particularly intensely to any given stimulus needs to feel extra safe and supported around that stimulus. It's going to continue to be a big part of his world for his whole life. It would set up a problematic situation if he were raised with the idea that he is uniquely incapable of having a healthy dynamic around something as prevalent as computer technology.

Sarah

Sandra Dodd

-=-I have a 7 1/2 year old son who when he was in school (until October 2014, 1st grade), and was daignosed there with ADHD, Snesory Processing Disorder and Emotional Disregulation. We are now home schooling-=-

Are you homeschooling?
Or are you unschooling?

If you’re homeschooling, this discussion might be more frustrating for you than helpful.

If you’re unschooling, drop all thought an mention of ADHD, Sensory Processing problems, or any “disregulation.”
Allergies to school should go away once the child is not in school.

Everything on that list is made worse by discussion of it (in an unschooling situation) and is made better by seeing the child directly, and by giving him time (years) to gently discover how he will best live in the world around him, with his parents as partners in his leisurely exploration.

-=-I keep reading about how addictive screens can be for the non neuro typical. -=-

There is a world of negativity you could keep reading about. If you want to unschool, there are better things to read.
Any negativity will make your mind, your own biochemistry, your responses to your child, and your relationship with your child, more negative.

-=-I want to give him his freedom, but I am sick with worry that in his case, it might not be the right choice. -=-

Because words express thought and belief, I’m going to point at some words. Changing the way you describe these thing will change the way you think about them. Changing the way you think about them will change the way you feel, and react, and sleep, and look at your child.

“His freedom” is awkward. Freedom as a concept is complex and not helpful.

What you can very successully give him is more options, more choices.

This is way more philosophical than practical, you might be thinking. But you’ve come here describing things in terms that we can’t defend or address without you falling back to a better starting point.

If you’re homeschooling, unschoolers’ ideas might not help.
If you’re unschooling, step away from your fears and terminologies and diagnoses.

-=- I am sick with worry that in his case, it might not be the right choice. -=-

Don’t be sick.
We can help you not worry.

There is no one single forever “right choice.” There are many small choices every day.

http://sandradodd.com/choices
Don’t read all of those at once.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

There is a link there to avoiding negativity.

Here is some writing about the problems with the “freedom” as a goal (instead of togetherness, partnership, learning, and other ideas):
http://sandradodd.com/freedom

Here are ideas about why to abandon labels, and look directly at your child as an individual, without those comparisons:
http://sandradodd.com/labels

I know that’s a lot of information, but you arrived with a wall of brambles between you and learning more.

We can help, if you want.

Sandra
the listowner

Sandra Dodd

Let him play with the iPad as much as he wants to. If he’s using it as an escape, or as recovery from school or pressures at home, isn’t it nice that there’s such a simple way for him to be entertained and feel powerful, while still safe right there at home? It’s wonderful!

-=- just in December I dropped our sreen limits on his ipad usage. As a result-=-

The binge is caused by the limits you had before December. You created the value by making it scarce.

Here’s an article by Pam Sorooshian that explains some of that in terms of economics (which she teaches at college level, and her three unschooled kids are grown):
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics

If you’re not forcing a child to do something, and if he has options, then he’s making choices. He SHOULD choose the coolest, most stimulating, most comforting, most entertaining thing. That’s where learning will be. That’s where happiness will be.

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

I nust realized I totally misread "ADHD" as "ASD". My comments pertinent to that may not be relevant. Apologies.

Sarah

Sandra Dodd

-=- It would set up a problematic situation if he were raised with the idea that he is uniquely incapable of having a healthy dynamic around something as prevalent as computer technology.-=-

Still, what you wrote is as true as can be of any child, and of any child:

-=- It would set up a problematic situation if he were raised with the idea that he is uniquely incapable of having a healthy dynamic around something as prevalent as computer technology.-=-

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

DOH! I am so sorry. I pasted the same line twice.

Intended to post this:

Sarah Thompson wrote:
-=-I nust realized I totally misread "ADHD" as "ASD". My comments pertinent to that may not be relevant. Apologies.-=-

Still, what you wrote is as true as can be of any child, and of any child:

-=- It would set up a problematic situation if he were raised with the idea that he is uniquely incapable of having a healthy dynamic around something as prevalent as computer technology.-=-

Sandra

ms.hernandez@...

Hi Jennifer!

My daughter is 5 years old and has Cerebral Palsy which is brain damage that occurred at birth. We have not been unschooling for long (about 6 months) but I can tell you about the differences I've seen in her and in the way I see what learning is. When we took away restrictions to ipads and TV gradually, she was on her Ipad a lot and was very upset when the battery died. She also pressed pause and play repeatedly. We stuck with it and helped her understand why the battery died and what we needed to do to charge it again. Several months later she no longer gets upset about it. She also doesn't press pause/play repeatedly anymore. She gets a little sad and she asks me to put it on the charger. She then chooses another activity, usually a favorite TV show. Whatever she needed to work through I let it happen and was there when she was upset about something. 

Some may see this as "too much screen time" but I have seen how much she learns from her ipad and favorite shows. She has learned a TON from watching back to back episodes of Peppa Pig. I have seen her blossom in the last few months. The best advice someone told me was that my daughter will learn differently from others because of her disability, but she will learn in her own way, in her own style. That's with every kid. Her twin learns differently and knows different things and that's perfectly fine. 

Rachel

You can also get a cheap portable charger so that she can still play as the Ipad is charging. I think ours cost around £15 in the UK and we've had it for a couple of years now.

Sent using CloudMagic Email
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 2:48 am, ms.hernandez@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:



Hi Jennifer!

My daughter is 5 years old and has Cerebral Palsy which is brain damage that occurred at birth. We have not been unschooling for long (about 6 months) but I can tell you about the differences I've seen in her and in the way I see what learning is. When we took away restrictions to ipads and TV gradually, she was on her Ipad a lot and was very upset when the battery died. She also pressed pause and play repeatedly. We stuck with it and helped her understand why the battery died and what we needed to do to charge it again. Several months later she no longer gets upset about it. She also doesn't press pause/play repeatedly anymore. She gets a little sad and she asks me to put it on the charger. She then chooses another activity, usually a favorite TV show. Whatever she needed to work through I let it happen and was there when she was upset about something. 

Some may see this as "too much screen time" but I have seen how much she learns from her ipad and favorite shows. She has learned a TON from watching back to back episodes of Peppa Pig. I have seen her blossom in the last few months. The best advice someone told me was that my daughter will learn differently from others because of her disability, but she will learn in her own way, in her own style. That's with every kid. Her twin learns differently and knows different things and that's perfectly fine. 


Clare Kirkpatrick

-=- The best advice someone told me was that my daughter will learn differently from others because of her disability, -=-

I think it's important for unschooling parents to understand that *all* children will learn differently to other children because *all* children are different, regardless of whether or not they have a disability.

We all want our children to learn but, as unschoolers, we trust that our children will learn what they need in order to live the lives they want to live if we facilitate a life of joy, security, connection and trust, helping them to do the things they love in the knowledge that that is where the deepest, most helpful and efficient learning is. That means helping them play on ipads if that's what they love doing. It means playing on ipads with them and being joyful about their joy. Being fearful or disapproving will damage your relationship, which will hinder learning and get in the way of your child making authentic choices (by which I mean not choices influenced by your fear and disapproval). That means he may not always be choosing the ipad because he really wants to do it but because he is scared it might be taken away at any moment.

Clare

Megan Valnes

If you are serious about unschooling, please take the advice on this thread, and ditch the labels. Stop with them. Stop thinking of your son as someone who needs labels to explain his past or current behavior. Look at your child. He is deschooling. You are deschooling. Deschooling is a long process and different for everyone because everyone has different reactions and experiences with school. The general rule of thumb I've heard is one month per year in school, but for my oldest son, it took much longer.

We took our kids out of school two years ago, when our oldest was 9 years old and part way through the 4th grade. Everyone was trying to label him--school counselors, therapists, psychiatrists, and even one bold teacher. We had started reading about unschooling about 1 1/2 years prior to actually taking the kids out, so we had made many small changes leading up to finally pulling them out of school and really starting our journey. I had never felt comfortable with the labels anyone tried to give my son because I could see that my child did not have attention-deficit-hyperactive-disorder. He could sit and do something he was interested for hours. Just because he wasn't interested in COMPLYING with someone else's desires did not make him ADHD. But schools can't have that. Schools need compliance or they can't get their job done. Kids that don't fit in the way they "should" are labeled and sometimes drugged. Their fire is extinguished before it grows too hot. 

Along with quitting school, we also quit therapists, psychiatrists, etc. I could finally see that this projection of "something being wrong" with my son was causing him to believe there was something wrong with him! There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with him! He's a perfectly wonderful boy, coming into his own, and really starting to believe in himself. He said just the other night "mommy, I am a master of computers. I am going to totally own this PC gaming thing." And I believe him! And I am so happy he can see good in himself again, because trust me, his self esteem was so DAMAGED. 

My son is now 11 and a different child than he was when we took him out of school almost exactly 2 years ago. He is no longer the angry, wounded, rebellious child that wanted nothing to do with the rest of us. He spent about the first nine months out of school watching TV on our couch downstairs. To me, it seemed he watched TV around the clock, but I know he took some breaks to sleep. There were times I felt I would lose my mind if he watched one more show! I wanted him to come to park days with us, make new friends, find an interest that would capture his imagination, and basically become a different person. I will never forget when Joyce said (I'm paraphrasing here) "if he had a broken leg, would you be bugging him to get up and walk, let alone run?"

Bingo! No, of course I would never dream of forcing or even asking a child with a broken leg to walk or run! So why was I expecting my freshly wounded son to do or be things he wasn't ready for yet?

First, stop with the labels. Let all those go because they're likely a lot of nonsense. Let your son be. Be with him. If he wants to be on the iPad all day, be with him if he'll let you. There are games on the iPad that you can also get on your phone and play together interactively or separately, but it's still fun to have the same games so you can talk about them and be into the same thing. Let him move through his recovery without you hovering around worrying. Worry about yourself right now and your own long journey of deschooling.

Pam Sorooshian recently said in a podcast that she doesn't think adults are ever fully deschooled, and I tend to agree with her. If you went to school like most of us, you were in for many years and is there a way to ever completely come out of that mindset? I don't know--I've only been unschooling for two years, so I'll get back to this thought in about 15 years or so. 

For now, find ways to bring peace and joy into your son's life. Feed him yummy foods while he does whatever he is doing. Invite him out for a walk if you can or somewhere fun; amusement parks, movies, indoor trampoline places, the art store to pick supplies, the grocery store and let him pick out and buy whatever he wants. 

Please remember that many of these labels are really code for: Your child is not conforming, see to it that he does immediately or suffer the consequences.

Here's a link to the podcast with Pam Sorooshian discussing unschooling and deschooling. There's some other good speakers too. 


On Thursday, January 28, 2016, Jennifer Thomson jthomsonquazi@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Hi everyone,
I've been reading on this list for a while.  I have a 7 1/2 year old son who when he was in school (until October 2014, 1st grade), and was daignosed there with ADHD, Snesory Processing Disorder and Emotional Disregulation.  We are now home schooling and just in December I dropped our sreen limits on his ipad usage.  As a result, he is literally on the ipad 12 hours a day, and has interest in very little else.  Do other people on the list have experience with this with non neuro-typical kids?  
I keep reading about how addictive screens can be for the non neuro typical.  I want to give him his freedom, but I am sick with worry that in his case, it might not be the right choice.  Please share your experiences with me.

Warmly,
Jenn

Sandra Dodd

Meghan Valnes wrote:
-=-
If you went to school like most of us, you were in for many years and is there a way to ever completely come out of that mindset? I don't know--I've only been unschooling for two years, so I'll get back to this thought in about 15 years or so.
-=-

I was in public school for 11 years, university for four, taught for six.

Twenty-one years of schoolishness.
Bonus that some of those were critical of school-style education, and pro-alternative ed. STILL. A lifetime, at one time.

I went from being schoolish all the time to being unschoolish almost always.
Sometimes, once a month or so, schoolishness surfaces. I catch it right away now, but at first, 25 years ago, i didn’t always recognize it.

Sandra

miranda.wann@...

Hi everyone,
In response to 

--If you’re unschooling, drop all thought an mention of ADHD, Sensory Processing problems, or any “disregulation.”

Allergies to school should go away once the child is not in school.


Everything on that list is made worse by discussion of it (in an unschooling situation) and is made better by seeing the child directly, and by giving him time (years) to gently discover how he will best live in the world around him, with his parents as partners in his leisurely exploration.--


I mention the terms because I think standing in solidarity with others on the list who have possibly come to unschooling despite great opposition from well meaning friends, family and professionals is important, and because I treasure the principles I strive to live that I have learned here. 


My son is 10 and was in school until the beginning of second grade, where he was given a string of labels, including ASD, Sensory Processing, Oppositional Defiant and the zinger, "Other Health Impairments". We started to deschool right away, as his mental health had been seriously negatively impacted by being in school, and I like to think that we are in a nice unschooling mode at this point. He loves and has full access to any media available on his laptop and kindle fire and loves anything video game, youtube, comic book related. He also has chosen to continue practicing taekwondo, which he has always liked, though it was an activity I chose *for* him when he first started. He has also self selected his bedtime (10 PM) and for almost a year now has chosen to observe his version of Shabbat on Saturdays, meaning he does no work on the computer and reads, hangs out, goes for walks, and encourages me not to do laundry or drive :) I respect his practice, and we get lots of opportunities to talk about why I can still drive, if I want to, because I don't observe Shabbat.


While I strive to drop all thought and mention of the labels, it is clear to me and other people we come into contact with that my son is neurologically atypical. He is indeed allergic to school and other places where people intend to impose a rigid structure upon his behaviors.He is also  the kind of kid that doesn't pick up on social cues, and he has some mannerisms (like jumping up and running for joy and sucking his thumb) that have actually become more prevalent since we started unschooling. He has the opportunity to be who he is, and I am to the degree to which I am capable (in this moment, on this day) his partner in that unfolding of who he will be in this world. And sometimes, I am not as skillful as I'd like to be. It is hard when I  have expectations of how my kid *should* be (he should play soccer! he shouldn't suck his thumb! I shouldn't have to remind him every day, multiple times, that he is welcome to put his hands down his pants when he is alone, but that is is not ok in public, or even when the only people in the room are me and his sister). There are times when I think,oh, probably if I had kept him in the behavioral therapy they had at school, he wouldn't be sucking his thumb! (Or whatever behavior that is currently making me uncomfortable). But the reality is, he does suck his thumb. Reality: he hasn't put his hands down his pants in public for months now. Reality: I am still reminding him, lovingly, kindly, sometimes playfully, sometimes in exasperation, to take his hands out of his pants when we are home in the same room. When I am unkind, I apologize.  And he is happy, engaged, and sometimes surly, opinionated and excited about life. 

Many days, mostly when I compare myself and family to other people and what they seem to be doing, or when money isn't doing the come and go flow,  I think, I can't do this. Then I surround myself, virtually by reading this list or going to the Facebook page of an unschooling group, or physically, with people who accept me , my family, and my choices. Then I realize, I am doing this, and sometimes it is smooth and sometimes it is bumpy but it is so much better than watching my kid be degraded and demoralized, day in and day out, as he was in school. Plus, I get to *show* him how to make macaroni and cheese, slowly, one step and then another, when he asks, coz that's how he rolls.

In kind regard,
Miranda 




Sandra Dodd

-=-I mention the terms because I think standing in solidarity with others on the list who have possibly come to unschooling despite great opposition from well meaning friends, family and professionals is important, and because I treasure the principles I strive to live that I have learned here. -=-

That’s a lot of words that sound like you’re saying you’re going to keep using the terms.
Maybe I’m wrong.

-=- There are times when I think,oh, probably if I had kept him in the behavioral therapy they had at school, he wouldn't be sucking his thumb! -=-

I know someone who’s in her 30’s now, an emergency-room nurse in New York City. She grew up in Albuquerque, the only child of educated, artistic parents. They divorced when she was young, and that caused her stress. She sucked her thumb. i’m still friends with both parents. I knew them before she was born. She used to stay at our house sometimes, when she was 12, 14, 15, and my kids were 7 and younger.

She sucked her thumb in her teens. She sucked her thumb as a young adult. She found ways to be subtle about it.

I saw her at her 33rd birthday, and met her really impressive boyfriend. It didn’t seem polite to ask whether she still sucked her thumb.

I’m guessing at some point she quit, but she was “neurologically typical.”

Sometimes it’s the stress of school, or of divorce, or of moving, getting new step-siblings, or bio siblings, that causes “behaviors” that parents would like to help a child extinguish (behaviorally speaking). Looking for labels to explain those might be helpful with critical relatives, or with schools who could cut a kid a break.

In the light of unschooling (which is the only light we should have here), the labels are not helpful. Then they can go beyond “not helpful” to harmful, if they’re not abandoned as early as possible.

Sandra

miranda.wann@...

I mention the terms because I think standing in solidarity with others on the list who have possibly come to unschooling despite great opposition from well meaning friends, family and professionals is important, and because I treasure the principles I strive to live that I have learned here. -=-

That’s a lot of words that sound like you’re saying you’re going to keep using the terms.
Maybe I’m wrong.

I prefaced my use of the terms mainly because I was identifying myself as a mom of a kid who was labeled as such, not because I use them to describe him to others or encourage him to label himself using those terms,but more like giving some background. But there, again, I am using the label to in essence categorize myself, in this discussion… so I appreciate the feedback. 

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was identifying myself as a mom of a kid who was labeled as such, not because I use them to describe him to others-=-

We’re others. Thousands of others. :-)
Strangers in several continents.
You did it in writing. :-)

I know that you were using it as an intro, but I wish you knew that every time you even think those terms, you solidify his “problems” in your own heart. Don’t etch him into the special ed of your soul. Let him be who he is—his name, just that. His own face and his own smile.

-=-But there, again, I am using the label to in essence categorize myself, in this discussion… so I appreciate the feedback. -=-

it’s not just feedback for you. Once a topic is out in this discussion, it’s for the benefit of every reader and for those who will come later and read in the archives. When you read anything here, you will (everyone will) compare it to what’s already known and being done, and it will help ease the way to stronger, better unschooling. That’s the plan, anyway. :-)

http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning

I hope anyone who is new to this group will read there, and in the links about how to post, and notes to new members.

Thanks!

Sandra