Siblings
Sarah Thompson
I was reading some stuff on Sandra's website about how older siblings shouldn't be made to feel responsible for younger siblings. I know my almost-10yo does feel like he has to cave to pressure from his larger-personalities 6yo brother, who insists on as much of his attention as he can get. Wallace, older, enjoys Lysander, but he wants some space for himself and his friends. I agree.
The problem is that Lysander is hysterical with anger and panic when Wallace goes off with friends. He's on the verge of relationships with younger kids, but he gets frustrated with their little-kidness. He doesn't want to play with me at all. It's my job, not Wallace's job, to help Lysander get his needs met, but I'm flailing.
Fwiw, he tried a few days a week of pre-k at our tiny local school, because Wallace had done that at his age and enjoyed the kids, but he was miserable and we stopped immediately. Finding friends for him is proving challenging. He has one favorite local boy but I've been unable to get them together and I know he's sad about that-he asks about him a lot.
Sarah
Clare Kirkpatrick
And be with him in his pain. You can't fix it - you can't make his brother stay home so he's not upset - but you can help him through it, as well as through any other disappointments he will go through in his life. Commiserate. Tell him you love him. If you are comfortable to sit with his pain with him, it'll pass. Often children just need to feel truly heard - that their feelings are respected. Of course, you can also find ways to help ameliorate them but not in the moment when they're at their most consuming - the sort of feelings you describe need hearing. He's too emotional to consider anything else. So be with them.
On 25 January 2016 at 15:30, Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:I was reading some stuff on Sandra's website about how older siblings shouldn't be made to feel responsible for younger siblings. I know my almost-10yo does feel like he has to cave to pressure from his larger-personalities 6yo brother, who insists on as much of his attention as he can get. Wallace, older, enjoys Lysander, but he wants some space for himself and his friends. I agree.
The problem is that Lysander is hysterical with anger and panic when Wallace goes off with friends. He's on the verge of relationships with younger kids, but he gets frustrated with their little-kidness. He doesn't want to play with me at all. It's my job, not Wallace's job, to help Lysander get his needs met, but I'm flailing.
Fwiw, he tried a few days a week of pre-k at our tiny local school, because Wallace had done that at his age and enjoyed the kids, but he was miserable and we stopped immediately. Finding friends for him is proving challenging. He has one favorite local boy but I've been unable to get them together and I know he's sad about that-he asks about him a lot.
Sarah
Sandra Dodd
I meant baby-sitting. Don’t create a situation in which the safety of the younger sibling is entrusted to the older one.
(If you saw something else and I’m missing the point, please clarify or send a link.)
This other stuff would happen even with school in the picture.
Maybe you could (for a while it won’t last 10 years) take the younger child out to do something great when the older one has an outing with friends. Even if it costs money. You’ll be buying peace, learning and memories.
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
This was the link:
http://sandradodd.com/siblingresponsibility
I have a question about coming up with extra fun stuff while brother is busy.
I don't save stuff up for a special occasion unless it's a question of actually saving up the money to buy something. This doesn't seem to leave much in the "special incentive" category. If I say, "let's get sorbet while Wallace is at a friend's house," sometimes he is unresponsive because he knows sorbet is always an option.
Sarah
Clare Kirkpatrick
Something special can mean sorbet at a cafe with mum followed by choosing a new book at the local book shop; or visiting his favourite place together. We're the same with regard to not having things be 'special' because of an arbitrary 'no' response most times. Bit things can still be special :)
Tomorrow my nine year old and I are going out without anyone else (she has three siblings) to do a treasure trail around our local town. She can't wait.
I also have a date with my eleven year old to make candles and bath bombs together. It will feel very special.
Sometimes making a den from which we can watch a new dvd with some popcorn can be really special and lovely.
Think creatively. Think joyfully. It feels like you're stuck in 'struggle' mode - seeing this as a problem rather than a beautiful opportunity to connect and do something fun together. Turn it around.
On 25 Jan 2016 19:03, "Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:This was the link:
http://sandradodd.com/siblingresponsibilityI have a question about coming up with extra fun stuff while brother is busy.
I don't save stuff up for a special occasion unless it's a question of actually saving up the money to buy something. This doesn't seem to leave much in the "special incentive" category. If I say, "let's get sorbet while Wallace is at a friend's house," sometimes he is unresponsive because he knows sorbet is always an option.
Sarah
Sandra Dodd
So are you saying the idea won’t work?
Or that maybe unschooling should recommend depriving kids more so that something like sorbet will be rare enough to be used for rewards or training
I doubt that you meant to convey either idea, but I don’t know what you wanted me to say.
If there is nothing on earth you think would entertain him or impress him, or that would be fun for you to do with him or to show him, would school be a better option?
That’s a bit facetious, maybe; you’ve said he doesn’t like school.
In the world there are many things besides school and sorbet. At least a hundred other things.
From my site (though it’s not the only place to look):
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/ (is there a park, or indoor play-place?)
Ideas, even thought they might be young for him:
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren
http://sandradodd.com/strew/deblist
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
Wallace promised him that they would have a Bad Piggies tournament when he gets home, and that he and his buddy won't do anything too fun:)
It is sweet, and it helped. But is it okay for Wallace to feel like he needs to do this for Lysander? Is that taking too much emotional responsibility? Is it okay for him to pretend they aren't going to do anything "too fun"?
Sarah
LEAH ROSE
It is sweet, and it helped. But is it okay for Wallace to feel like he needs to do this for Lysander? Is that taking too much emotional responsibility? Is it okay for him to pretend they aren't going to do anything "too fun"?"
This sounds like Wallace is showing genuine concern for his brother's feelings and trying to help him shift his focus from feeling bereft to looking forward to some fun. This sounds like Wallace really understands empathy and isn't afraid to respond compassionately.
Is there more to the story? Does Wallace really dislike playing Bad Piggies? Do you think his offer feels to him like an unwanted burden, made out of guilt? I would be concerned if Wallace declined to go play with his friend for fear of Lysander's reaction and/or out of feeling an obligation to not disappoint his younger brother. But his offer seems to show a good sense of personal boundaries, a healthy concern for his brother, but not a codependent relationship (which is what it sounds like you are worried about.)
I love it when our kids show empathy and make kind offers to each other. If they are responding out of care and compassion rather than misplaced guilt or obligation, then it's healthy and worth celebrating, I think. :)
~ Leah
sukaynalabboun@...
Sandra Dodd
Yes, and when parents model that with their own generosity, that’s some of the best that life can offer.
I was goingt to say the best that unschooling can offer, but it can as easily be done in a family involved with school.
If a parent tries to “make” a child be generous, that’s not generosity anymore.
Same with anything service-related. If it’s not a choice it’s not a gift.
It might help (thought it will seem off topic at first, maybe) to read here:
http://sandradodd.com/chores/gift
These won’t be as hard to have guessed:
http://sandradodd.com/choice
Looking too closely at a single situation can sometimes keep someone from seeing the larger day, relationship, progress, child.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
That’s what I’ve meant in the past, but the link that was left wasn’t my writing anyway. That example WAS more about emotional responsibility. Still. If a parent tells a child that it’s his duty to keep another child happy or safe, it’s not right or true. That is NOT to say the opposite is what’s true, that a child can freely torment another child or cause him harm.
I wouldn’t have made that caveat had I not seen parents come briefly here, looking for rules instead of coming here calmly to hang out and figure out what principles will help them see all the answers themselves, or to see ways to incrementally improve their own parental reactions and resources now and in the future.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
If it was done out of kindness, why wouldn’t it be okay?
You could thank Wallace for being kind.
-=- Is that taking too much emotional responsibility?-=-
It sounds like it wasn’t “responsibility,” but kindness.
-=-Is it okay for him to pretend they aren't going to do anything "too fun”?-=-
Sure. Why not?
Haven’t you ever done that, partly joking, when someone can’t go with you somewhere and said “Don’t worry, it won’t be that fun”? Not in a damning-the-day way, but just as a balm for the one who will miss out?
I still think merry distraction is the way for you, as the mom, to go here.
Don’t talk about wondering what the other kids are doing. Don’t dwell. If the younger child muses or dwells, touch it briefly and gently (like “I don’t know what they’re doing right now. Maybe we can hear stories later” or “Maybe they’ll take pictures and we can see later.”
I was looking for examples on my page.
I found this:
-=-unerzogen: Why do you think does an "atmosphere of competition" not arise within unschoolers?
Sandra Dodd: In school, the teachers create and maintain the competition. Comparisons are constant. In that playgroup, the parents would point out the best of each child, without comparison. One climbed trees really well. One could do tricks on the swings. Two of them were peacemaking negotiators among the other children, and if there was a problem we would sometimes point it out to them first before stepping in. If an activity arose among children that one child was feeling left out of, one of the moms would distract him with something else fun so that he wasn't standing there feeling sad or frustrated. Because peace and happiness were our goals, rather than striving for perfection (a phrase I heard many times in school), there was less jealousy and sorrow.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/teenager
That reminds me to accept and encourage and be grateful for talents in our children. If one is good at peacemaking, what a great thing!
This might help too, as a visual for the mom:
________
Schuyler Waynforth, February 2010:
Often if I'm stuck not being able to see the positive in something, I need to quit looking at it. I need to look at other things. I need to find something to move forward to instead of whirling and twirling around the angsty thing. Make the angry thing small and insignificant, turn away from it, look for bright and shiny things to distract you, look at tiny things that give you pleasure, look at large things that you didn't appreciate fully the first time around. Turning toward joy will definitely make it harder to feel stymied in the negative.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
________
Sometimes when you need ideas, maybe go to
http://sandradodd.com/search and put a word (I used “distract”) into one of those search boxes. Ideas will start to bubble up. :-)
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
Kelly Callahan
Sandra Dodd
THANK YOU.
I knew it was in there somewhere. :-)
Asking a child to help with another child while the mom is there isn’t the same as totally giving a child responsibility for the child’s physical wellbeing, though.
As with some other things that are on people’s personal checklists-of-certain-danger, it’s personal for me. When I was five years old, my mom left me and my sister to play outside and told me to watch her. She ended up in the hospital for a few days, while I was left with relatives I didn’t know well who had no children and zero toys. I was scared. My mom was terrified. My sister needed stitches inside the roof of her mouth.
Lest people make up worse stories than it was, there was a #2 washtub (a galvanyzed steel tub, round, that people used to do laundry in, and take baths in, long ago), outside, with water in it, freshly set up for us to play in. Drowning maybe should’ve been a question, with a two-year-old, but my mom…. my mom wasn’t always thinking well. But there was a little stroller—probably for dolls, but maybe for people. My sister climbed up into the seat of it, and was holding the handle (so facing backwards, standing), and laughing with her mouth open. I was five, and too little to know how dangerous that was. The stroller fell, and my sister, mouth still open hit the inside of her mouth on a rock (the story always was, but I didn’t see that). I had NO idea what to do. She was screaming, and bleeding, and walked by herself to the door of the house which was not far, about four yards, and by the time she got there there was blood to her feet.
My mom didn’t say “You should have taken better care of her,” but she didn’t say much of anything to me for the next four days or so. She was at the hospital with my sister. I was in the upstairs apartment of my Uncle Joe Paul and Aunt Betty. The food was weird, there was nothing to play with, nothing to draw on. They had an upstairs balcony with a porch swing—for those familiar with early 20th century southern/western U.S. architecture it was a four-apartment building, big porch, upstairs porch, glass door to stairs. Downstairs apartments open near the front door. Upstairs apartments open at the landing at the top of the stairs. There were tons of those in cities in the southwest; maybe everywhere.
I had no idea if my sister would ever be okay again.
That’s way too much for a little kid to deal with. But my mom was young, too, I guess—twenty-seven. Resentful and defensive. Building up to some bigtime alcoholism, though at the time it wasn’t there.
So when I say responsibility for siblings, I’m really not picturing whether it’s okay for them to be kind and to offer to play with them to make up for having left them to visit with older friends. :-) I mean the real life-and-death responsibility, or anything that could create trauma in either of them. It shouldn’t be their job to keep the other alive, safe or happy if there’s a parent in the vicinity.
Sorry for the long story, but it might help someone a little. And my sister healed, and might not even remember it, and I’m nearly over it myself now. :-)
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
Cinira
Hi!
On Jan 26, 2016, at 7:12 PM, "sukaynalabboun@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
I understand. I was made to feel responsible for my mother's well-being. When she had to be hospitalized (diabetes, slipped disk, asthma.....) it was always my fault. I was only three, the first time I remember it being "my fault". That is heavy, heavy emotional stuff to carry around and work through, and like you Sandra, I have made a HUGE effort to be the grown up who is responsible so kids can be kids. I have also really avoided ever having the kids care for each other, even if I am around, because I wanted to gift them a guilt free childhood (at least in that area, if I could). That is why I remembered the link, because it seemed cool to maybe offer incentive if I wanted help, with them always able to decline without negative consequences.
FWIW my older kids are super close, and really intuitive about the feelings and needs of other close family. For me, this is priceless and something we probably would have lost along the way had we stayed in school.
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Are you adding to the heaviness, with your judgment and concern?
-=- I wish he could realize he is free to do his own things without being concerned about his older sister… -=-
Could you reframe the way you’re thinking of his “concern”? If she’s not being mean to him, if she’s sharing with him, and he wants to be more like her even though it makes him feel young and inexperienced, those are not bad things.
I have a bit of feeling that you’re seeing it as a mixed-age classroom, in a bad way—that he should get to be the head of his class without comparison to someone with more experience. If this is at all related to a schoolishness in you, then step back and find totally different ways to describe it in your mind. Categorize it as learning, and togetherness, and modelling.
The ghost of another thought came through, and it might be entirely NOT applicable in your case, but could be in someone else’s so I’m going to run the scenario anyway.
Sometimes if a parent for any reason likes the second child more than the first, or feels more protective of the second child, they can (without meaning to) create an environment in which the older child feels shushed, rejected, dangerous, unwanted. I’ve seen cases where the parents weren’t getting along well and the oldest reminded the mom of the partner. I’ve seen cases where it was a stepchild or half-sibling. I’ve seen a parent who was not a firstborn child take out his or her own childhood frustration on behalf of the second- or third-born child, but criticizing the oldest.
Let them have a relationship that isn’t micro-managed or imagined by their parents, if you can. You’re not reporting her coming to draw for meanness, or to disturb him. And I don’t think you should say “If he’s drawing, don’t draw.” You might be marring a situation that could turn out really well if you watch it instead of trying to thwart or discourage it.
Sandra
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 27, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Cinira ciniravlonguinho@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi!Still about siblings but a different perspective. I have a almost 9 years old girl and a 4 1/2 boy plus a 16 month old baby girl. They are all really closed to each other specially since we moved to another country. Anyways, I feel my boy gets intimidated by his older sister. For example, he is happy drawing. Then she comes and starts drawing too. She is all happy. He stops drawing and just look at her drawings. Then he starts changing his drawings to things more similar to what she is doing but as it does not look like hers... he says he cannot draw any longer. He stops.I feel he is sad for not drawing as she does. Sometimes she comes and shows me her drawing. We talk about it. When she does that he goes and quickly does a little something and show me .last time he did little dots in the paper and said it was an invasion of fleas. I also talk to him about his ideas and all. I loved the invasion of the fleas by the way. If she starts drawing first, he looks at her and then says i can't draw. He does not even start. I sit close to them and just draw lines up and downs. Show them my drawing. Sometimes he joins sometimes he continues saying he cant. I let it be. Another example, She reads a lot... He does not know how to read but he gets her books and "reads"them... There are no pictures. He is looking at words... If She tells the story to us then he comes and tell stories too using parts of her stories. He is very creative and great! I wish he could realize he is free to do his own things without being concerned about his older sister... His things are marvellous but it seems he does not know it. After debating this with myself for awhile i realize he is also free to be concerned about her... It is just that i wish he did not have this "heaviness" in his life.CSent from my iPhoneaI understand. I was made to feel responsible for my mother's well-being. When she had to be hospitalized (diabetes, slipped disk, asthma.....) it was always my fault. I was only three, the first time I remember it being "my fault". That is heavy, heavy emotional stuff to carry around and work through, and like you Sandra, I have made a HUGE effort to be the grown up who is responsible so kids can be kids. I have also really avoided ever having the kids care for each other, even if I am around, because I wanted to gift them a guilt free childhood (at least in that area, if I could). That is why I remembered the link, because it seemed cool to maybe offer incentive if I wanted help, with them always able to decline without negative consequences.
FWIW my older kids are super close, and really intuitive about the feelings and needs of other close family. For me, this is priceless and something we probably would have lost along the way had we stayed in school.