Sarah Thompson

Over the past few months I've become concerned that my 5 1/2 yo's highly selective eating is a problem for him. Recently he was eating only highly sweetened foods like candy and kettlecorn, and pepperoni pizza but only the parts with pepperoni on them. He is often hungry and seems sad and distressed. I tried the suggestions I received on the unschooling facebook group but he got angry with me.

I wonder if he has some specific food sensitivities or gut issues, and whether to get that tested. At this point, I don't think he will consent to that test and I'm not sure it is necessary, but he did agree to go and talk to the doctor (he seems pretty small for his age) in hopes that she could help him find foods he likes. I am hoping the doctor will be able to recommend an occupational therapist who works with young children and food.

My concern with the OT is finding someone who can work with him in the respectful dynamic that he is used to. I don't use punishments or rewards (although I'm not above an incentive here and there), and it seems that the general protocol for OT with food usually does.

I am working with a classical homeopath on his behalf and he started a new remedy a few days ago which may be helping, in which case this question is moot. We are seeing the doc (who is really lovely) on Tuesday, though, so I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with occupational therapy and can help me figure out what to look for, what questions to ask, and maybe what to expect and how to help make the experience positive and successful in light of unschooling principles.

Sarah


Sandra Dodd

-=-He is often hungry and seems sad and distressed.-=-

Sad and distressed about what?

-=- I tried the suggestions I received on the unschooling facebook group but he got angry with me.-=-

My unschooling facebook group? Radical Unschooling Info? Or another one?

What did you do that would make him angry? I can't imagine any advice experienced unschoolers would've given that would make a child angry.

http://sandradodd.com/food
http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter

-=-I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with occupational therapy and can help me figure out what to look for, what questions to ask, and maybe what to expect and how to help make the experience positive and successful in light of unschooling principles.-=-

Why don't you NOT go to a therapist, but give him the food he wants without pressure, without anything to distress him or to make him angry?

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

-Sad and distressed about what?-
Being hungry and not being able to eat anything. That's what he says, anyway.

-My unschooling facebook group? Radical Unschooling Info? Or another one?-
Yours and Erika's. Advice from Alex, Joyce, Sylvias, Meredith, and many others who post here and elsewhere, as well as all the blogs you recommend.

-What did you do that would make him angry?-
Monkey platters. "Why did you buy this?" "I thought you might like it." "Don't buy foods you think I might like!" "Don't put that on a plate! I didn't ask for that!" If I do something wrong, like buy the wrong cheese or make a suggestion, he throws things and storms away and won't eat anything at all. The disproportionate reactions are part of the reason I think there may be deeper issues here. Last year was very hard on our family - I was dangerously ill and in the hospital and he spent a lot of time with grandparents. While he had fun, I know his grandparents are fairly conventional and he may have felt bullied about food. I don't know - he has never said and neither have any of them, but they definitely perceive his eating as "picky" and aren't open to radical solutions (like making a second dish if the first was wrong, or supporting him to eat separately or watching youtubes, or all the many things I do to be his partner).

We do these things: walking down the aisles and let him put anything in the cart, making all foods available, not pressuring him, but even things he picks out he later rejects, angrily or sadly. "Save it," he'll say, or "I do like it, but I just don't want it right now," but he doesn't eat it later, either. He stands at the fridge or the cupboard, or looks at the list he made of foods he says he likes, and none of them appeal.

If there is something I am misunderstanding about monkey platters or the other advice offered, I hope it will become clear in this conversation because I am operating under the assumption that there is no problem except for one that I create and yet he is hungry, underweight and sad about the lack of pleasing food options.

-Why don't you NOT go to a therapist, but give him the food he wants without pressure, without anything to distress him or to make him angry?-
I would prefer that, and if there is another way to do that than what I am doing, I want to know. I buy anything he asks for, I anticipate, I am respectful, I am available, I cook anything, I include him or not as he prefers, I don't call anything "junk" or empty calories, I don't push him to try anything. I make the few foods he eats, but if they are wrong in any way, or if I am unable to because we are out of something, he just doesn't eat. When we are anywhere besides home, it is very challenging, and if he is anyone else's care I have to pack a lot of groceries and debrief the caregiver, and still sometimes he won't eat anything.

I haven't controlled food in the past. His older brother eats a wide variety of foods. When Lysander, the 5 1/2 yo, was a baby (8months), I was suddenly hospitalized and unable to breastfeed. He received donor milk but it was extremely traumatic - there wasn't enough the first day. He was hungry and abandoned. It has always been a challenge to find foods he likes that fill him up, but it seems to have gotten harder in the past year since I was hospitalized extensively again.

pyxie

a book that may (or may not) be helpful is called "fearless feeding". it is not only about what to feed but the why and how.  they discuss all the way through teen years and the different nutrition at different stages.  

On Saturday, August 29, 2015, Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Over the past few months I've become concerned that my 5 1/2 yo's highly selective eating is a problem for him. Recently he was eating only highly sweetened foods like candy and kettlecorn, and pepperoni pizza but only the parts with pepperoni on them. He is often hungry and seems sad and distressed. I tried the suggestions I received on the unschooling facebook group but he got angry with me.

I wonder if he has some specific food sensitivities or gut issues, and whether to get that tested. At this point, I don't think he will consent to that test and I'm not sure it is necessary, but he did agree to go and talk to the doctor (he seems pretty small for his age) in hopes that she could help him find foods he likes. I am hoping the doctor will be able to recommend an occupational therapist who works with young children and food.

My concern with the OT is finding someone who can work with him in the respectful dynamic that he is used to. I don't use punishments or rewards (although I'm not above an incentive here and there), and it seems that the general protocol for OT with food usually does.

I am working with a classical homeopath on his behalf and he started a new remedy a few days ago which may be helping, in which case this question is moot. We are seeing the doc (who is really lovely) on Tuesday, though, so I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with occupational therapy and can help me figure out what to look for, what questions to ask, and maybe what to expect and how to help make the experience positive and successful in light of unschooling principles.

Sarah



--

 
**************************************
To laugh often and love much...to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self...this is to have succeeded
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

All I know is that I know nothing
~ Socrates

Be the change that you want to see in the world
~ Gandhi

I have found the paradox that if I love until it hurts, then there is no hurt, only more love.”
~ Mother Teresa

journey2zen on facebook

*  *  *


Sandra Dodd

-=-"Why did you buy this?" "I thought you might like it." "Don't buy foods you think I might like!" "Don't put that on a plate! I didn't ask for that!" -=-

This isn't about food; this is about courtesy.

I would say "If I'm doing the shopping, I can buy what I want to."
If someone said to me "Don't put that on a plate! I didn't ask for that!" I would take the plate away silently and not be inclined to bring another for a few days.

http://sandradodd.com/coaching
Helping children be polite is important.

Maybe don't make monkey platters for him, make them for the family. Make a little party platter and eat from it yourself, too. Or yourself exclusively. Maybe his food and eating are too separate from the family's (and maybe not—I'm guessing for the benefit of anyone who's reading and has any similar problems.


-=-he is hungry, underweight and sad about the lack of pleasing food options.-=-

Do you go to buffet restaurants?
When Marty was a kid and we went to Home Buffet (sadly closed now, though Albuquerque has several buffets), he would only get white food. Mashed potatoes and a few other white things. He grew up fine.
But if he's in the presence of 100 choices, will he choose two or three things? Jello? Corn? White rice? Cheesecake?

-=-The disproportionate reactions are part of the reason I think there may be deeper issues here.-=-
And so why "occupational therapist"? He's not having a hard time operating a spoon or chewing.

-=-When Lysander, the 5 1/2 yo, was a baby (8months), I was suddenly hospitalized and unable to breastfeed. He received donor milk but it was extremely traumatic - there wasn't enough the first day. He was hungry and abandoned. It has always been a challenge to find foods he likes that fill him up, but it seems to have gotten harder in the past year since I was hospitalized extensively again. -=-

Then psychology, not occupational therapy.

If you want someone who knows about unschooling to communicate with him, or you, or both, there are some people here:
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

I agree about courtesy, and we do talk about that. But it still doesn't get him fed.

The reason for OT is that, in asking around, "talkies" directed me to OTs. A lot of people who have been through similar-sounding food issues also suggested OTs, and antibody testing.

I haven't done a buffet restaurant, but sometimes we go to Whole Foods. So far nothing but pepperoni pizza has appealed. Unfortunately I bought the wrong pepperoni this time, and he doesn't like the pizza. He did eat a few pieces of plain sushi, though, so maybe the work with the homeopath is helping.

Maybe there is not an unschooling-friendly solution that involves an OT.

Sarah


Alex & Brian Polikowsky

Sounds like there is a lot of pressure for him to eat and he feels it.

I would relax totally!

Pepperoni pizza has carbs, protein and dairy. He can practically live eating that.

My daughter used to eat like a little bird up until about 5 or 6 . She was always tall. It is genetic not how much she eats.

Every time I pressure my son to eat, light pressure like you are doing, it backfires . He is 13, very tall and lanky. But if I look at his dad's pictures he was exactly like that!i back off and things go better.

My son always reacted strongly to pressures , even if unspoken ones . Just me worrying made things worse. 

Get what he wants . Make monkey platter for you and the rest of the family! Don't put in front of him like they are for him. He feels you are stressing.

Any stress and pressure around food, to eat or not eat, creates food issues and not healthy associations. 

Things will not get better until you totally relax.

Now if you have his favorite foods does he still say he is hungry? What about drinks? My son sometimes lives in chocolate milk and naked fruit smoothies.

Alex Polikowsky

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 30, 2015, at 8:19 AM, Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

-Sad and distressed about what?-
Being hungry and not being able to eat anything. That's what he says, anyway.

-My unschooling facebook group? Radical Unschooling Info? Or another one?-
Yours and Erika's. Advice from Alex, Joyce, Sylvias, Meredith, and many others who post here and elsewhere, as well as all the blogs you recommend.

-What did you do that would make him angry?-
Monkey platters. "Why did you buy this?" "I thought you might like it." "Don't buy foods you think I might like!" "Don't put that on a plate! I didn't ask for that!" If I do something wrong, like buy the wrong cheese or make a suggestion, he throws things and storms away and won't eat anything at all. The disproportionate reactions are part of the reason I think there may be deeper issues here. Last year was very hard on our family - I was dangerously ill and in the hospital and he spent a lot of time with grandparents. While he had fun, I know his grandparents are fairly conventional and he may have felt bullied about food. I don't know - he has never said and neither have any of them, but they definitely perceive his eating as "picky" and aren't open to radical solutions (like making a second dish if the first was wrong, or supporting him to eat separately or watching youtubes, or all the many things I do to be his partner).

We do these things: walking down the aisles and let him put anything in the cart, making all foods available, not pressuring him, but even things he picks out he later rejects, angrily or sadly. "Save it," he'll say, or "I do like it, but I just don't want it right now," but he doesn't eat it later, either. He stands at the fridge or the cupboard, or looks at the list he made of foods he says he likes, and none of them appeal.

If there is something I am misunderstanding about monkey platters or the other advice offered, I hope it will become clear in this conversation because I am operating under the assumption that there is no problem except for one that I create and yet he is hungry, underweight and sad about the lack of pleasing food options.

-Why don't you NOT go to a therapist, but give him the food he wants without pressure, without anything to distress him or to make him angry?-
I would prefer that, and if there is another way to do that than what I am doing, I want to know. I buy anything he asks for, I anticipate, I am respectful, I am available, I cook anything, I include him or not as he prefers, I don't call anything "junk" or empty calories, I don't push him to try anything. I make the few foods he eats, but if they are wrong in any way, or if I am unable to because we are out of something, he just doesn't eat. When we are anywhere besides home, it is very challenging, and if he is anyone else's care I have to pack a lot of groceries and debrief the caregiver, and still sometimes he won't eat anything.

I haven't controlled food in the past. His older brother eats a wide variety of foods. When Lysander, the 5 1/2 yo, was a baby (8months), I was suddenly hospitalized and unable to breastfeed. He received donor milk but it was extremely traumatic - there wasn't enough the first day. He was hungry and abandoned. It has always been a challenge to find foods he likes that fill him up, but it seems to have gotten harder in the past year since I was hospitalized extensively again.


Alex & Brian Polikowsky

I remember reading some big criticism about feeding therapy awhile ago and I am trying to find it.

Found this but will look for the other very good article on it:


Alex





















P

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 30, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

-=-"Why did you buy this?" "I thought you might like it." "Don't buy foods you think I might like!" "Don't put that on a plate! I didn't ask for that!" -=-

This isn't about food; this is about courtesy.

I would say "If I'm doing the shopping, I can buy what I want to."
If someone said to me "Don't put that on a plate! I didn't ask for that!" I would take the plate away silently and not be inclined to bring another for a few days.

http://sandradodd.com/coaching
Helping children be polite is important.

Maybe don't make monkey platters for him, make them for the family. Make a little party platter and eat from it yourself, too. Or yourself exclusively. Maybe his food and eating are too separate from the family's (and maybe not—I'm guessing for the benefit of anyone who's reading and has any similar problems.

-=-he is hungry, underweight and sad about the lack of pleasing food options.-=-

Do you go to buffet restaurants?
When Marty was a kid and we went to Home Buffet (sadly closed now, though Albuquerque has several buffets), he would only get white food. Mashed potatoes and a few other white things. He grew up fine.
But if he's in the presence of 100 choices, will he choose two or three things? Jello? Corn? White rice? Cheesecake?

-=-The disproportionate reactions are part of the reason I think there may be deeper issues here.-=-
And so why "occupational therapist"? He's not having a hard time operating a spoon or chewing.

-=-When Lysander, the 5 1/2 yo, was a baby (8months), I was suddenly hospitalized and unable to breastfeed. He received donor milk but it was extremely traumatic - there wasn't enough the first day. He was hungry and abandoned. It has always been a challenge to find foods he likes that fill him up, but it seems to have gotten harder in the past year since I was hospitalized extensively again. -=-

Then psychology, not occupational therapy.

If you want someone who knows about unschooling to communicate with him, or you, or both, there are some people here:
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy

Sandra


Alex & Brian Polikowsky

Reading you talk about your recent hospitalization makes me thing there maybe some anxiety issues in play. 

Anxiety can make people feel like they cannot physically eat even when they are hungry. 
Like Sandra wrote I would look into that more and talk to one of those therapists in that page for help. It can make a huge difference .

Alex P

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 30, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Alex & Brian Polikowsky polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

Sounds like there is a lot of pressure for him to eat and he feels it.

I would relax totally!

Pepperoni pizza has carbs, protein and dairy. He can practically live eating that.

My daughter used to eat like a little bird up until about 5 or 6 . She was always tall. It is genetic not how much she eats.

Every time I pressure my son to eat, light pressure like you are doing, it backfires . He is 13, very tall and lanky. But if I look at his dad's pictures he was exactly like that!i back off and things go better.

My son always reacted strongly to pressures , even if unspoken ones . Just me worrying made things worse. 

Get what he wants . Make monkey platter for you and the rest of the family! Don't put in front of him like they are for him. He feels you are stressing.

Any stress and pressure around food, to eat or not eat, creates food issues and not healthy associations. 

Things will not get better until you totally relax.

Now if you have his favorite foods does he still say he is hungry? What about drinks? My son sometimes lives in chocolate milk and naked fruit smoothies.

Alex Polikowsky

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 30, 2015, at 8:19 AM, Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

-Sad and distressed about what?-
Being hungry and not being able to eat anything. That's what he says, anyway.

-My unschooling facebook group? Radical Unschooling Info? Or another one?-
Yours and Erika's. Advice from Alex, Joyce, Sylvias, Meredith, and many others who post here and elsewhere, as well as all the blogs you recommend.

-What did you do that would make him angry?-
Monkey platters. "Why did you buy this?" "I thought you might like it." "Don't buy foods you think I might like!" "Don't put that on a plate! I didn't ask for that!" If I do something wrong, like buy the wrong cheese or make a suggestion, he throws things and storms away and won't eat anything at all. The disproportionate reactions are part of the reason I think there may be deeper issues here. Last year was very hard on our family - I was dangerously ill and in the hospital and he spent a lot of time with grandparents. While he had fun, I know his grandparents are fairly conventional and he may have felt bullied about food. I don't know - he has never said and neither have any of them, but they definitely perceive his eating as "picky" and aren't open to radical solutions (like making a second dish if the first was wrong, or supporting him to eat separately or watching youtubes, or all the many things I do to be his partner).

We do these things: walking down the aisles and let him put anything in the cart, making all foods available, not pressuring him, but even things he picks out he later rejects, angrily or sadly. "Save it," he'll say, or "I do like it, but I just don't want it right now," but he doesn't eat it later, either. He stands at the fridge or the cupboard, or looks at the list he made of foods he says he likes, and none of them appeal.

If there is something I am misunderstanding about monkey platters or the other advice offered, I hope it will become clear in this conversation because I am operating under the assumption that there is no problem except for one that I create and yet he is hungry, underweight and sad about the lack of pleasing food options.

-Why don't you NOT go to a therapist, but give him the food he wants without pressure, without anything to distress him or to make him angry?-
I would prefer that, and if there is another way to do that than what I am doing, I want to know. I buy anything he asks for, I anticipate, I am respectful, I am available, I cook anything, I include him or not as he prefers, I don't call anything "junk" or empty calories, I don't push him to try anything. I make the few foods he eats, but if they are wrong in any way, or if I am unable to because we are out of something, he just doesn't eat. When we are anywhere besides home, it is very challenging, and if he is anyone else's care I have to pack a lot of groceries and debrief the caregiver, and still sometimes he won't eat anything.

I haven't controlled food in the past. His older brother eats a wide variety of foods. When Lysander, the 5 1/2 yo, was a baby (8months), I was suddenly hospitalized and unable to breastfeed. He received donor milk but it was extremely traumatic - there wasn't enough the first day. He was hungry and abandoned. It has always been a challenge to find foods he likes that fill him up, but it seems to have gotten harder in the past year since I was hospitalized extensively again.


Sarah Thompson

Hm, okay, that's what I was afraid of. Perhaps I'll let it rest again, even if it means Twizzlers and pizza. It's just distressing when we don't have those things.

Sarah


D. Regan

 ... He is often hungry and seems sad and distressed... 

... he did agree to go and talk to the doctor (he seems pretty small for his age) in hopes that she could help him find foods he likes. I am hoping the doctor will be able to recommend an occupational therapist who works with young children and food...

Since he "seems sad and distressed", I would prioritise helping him be happier, over visiting to a doctor to "help him find foods he likes".  The effects of sad and distressed ripple out to affect all aspects of life, including eating.
  
Tune into him, notice what's going on for him, listen to him, be someone he can lean on.  Help him do things he loves, help make your home a happy, interesting place, lighten up your home with your own fun and joyful approach.  A counsellor could be useful to either or both of you.  


-My unschooling facebook group? Radical Unschooling Info? Or another one?-
Yours and Erika's. Advice from Alex, Joyce, Sylvias, Meredith, and many others who post here and elsewhere, as well as all the blogs you recommend. 

I couldn't remember the previous facebook thread about his food issues, so went and looked for it at Radical Unschooling Info.  I couldn't find it there, but I did come across a thread from November 2014 about feeling disconnected from the children.  They were being asked to keep the door closed while on the computer in the office (because of the noise being "grating").  In that thread there was this comment:-

-=-I really don't want food in the office; we tried it and it was a big problem with damage to the mouse, rotten food discovered under the desk, etc, so that feels like a resource limitation for me. They are comfortable with having to have clean hands for the devices.-=-

I wonder if that plays any part in his current issues with eating?  Supporting him in eating in the room where the computer is may well help him - to be happier and to eat more.  The issues with the mouse and food left under the desk, could be worked around.  Help him keep the mouse clean.  A couple of washcloths or wet wipes in the office would enable him to easily wipe his fingers. Or he could have food that he could eat with a spoon or fork.  And a clean up and check in there for leftover food should keep the room sanitary.  

This podcast about Mess and unschooling is good too:- 

Debbie
 

 



Sandra Dodd

-=-
The reason for OT is that, in asking around, "talkies" directed me to OTs.
A lot of people who have been through similar-sounding food issues also suggested OTs, and antibody testing.-=-

I don't know what you mean by "talkies."
"A lot" of people recommended occupational therapy for food aversions? Seriously?

-=-I haven't done a buffet restaurant, but sometimes we go to Whole Foods.-=-

At a buffet restaurant, the food has smells and textures and combinations that being at Whole Foods doesn't have anything to do with.
Try a buffet. Even if he only eats one thing, YOU can eat lots of things in front of him that you don't make at home, or that he's never seen.

-=-Maybe there is not an unschooling-friendly solution that involves an OT.-=-

If an OT is your goal, I still wonder why.

There was a discussion on Always Learning years back. It wasn't the same question, but I know there are things in here that you could consider to your child's benefit.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AlwaysLearning/conversations/topics/8482

-=-Perhaps I'll let it rest again, even if it means Twizzlers and pizza. It's just distressing when we don't have those things.-=-

Then avoid distress by ALWAYS having those things. He won't eat the same thing for the rest of his life. If you can't fix what you see as a problem, at least don't make it worse by inducing distress! (and find a buffet; seriously :-) )

If others here want to find some other former discussions that might help, or links on Joyce's site or mine, please bring them! Today's Keith's last day in town before he leaves for a week, so I'm going to go hang out with him.

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

I meant the Whole Foods buffet, but I'll look for a restaurant. He eats with his tablet, and I think that works for him. It sounds like the key is not to run out of his favorite pepperoni pizza so I'll work on that. (I didn't post on Sandra's fb page but I read other posts). I'll make sure I keep monkey platters around for myself, although he doesn't like food that has been on anyone else's plate.

Talkies are talk therapists. Perhaps I haven't been clear-a classical homeopath does a lot of talk therapy-type assessment. And yes, a lot of folks in other health, nutritional and parenting groups recommend OTs, as well as friends who are talk therapists.

An OT isn't necessarily my goal, but it *is* what I asked about so I think I may have my answer there.

It sounds like there is probably more *and* less that I can do.

Sarah

On Aug 30, 2015 2:49 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-
The reason for OT is that, in asking around, "talkies" directed me to OTs.
A lot of people who have been through similar-sounding food issues also suggested OTs, and antibody testing.-=-

I don't know what you mean by "talkies."
"A lot" of people recommended occupational therapy for food aversions? Seriously?

-=-I haven't done a buffet restaurant, but sometimes we go to Whole Foods.-=-

At a buffet restaurant, the food has smells and textures and combinations that being at Whole Foods doesn't have anything to do with.
Try a buffet. Even if he only eats one thing, YOU can eat lots of things in front of him that you don't make at home, or that he's never seen.

-=-Maybe there is not an unschooling-friendly solution that involves an OT.-=-

If an OT is your goal, I still wonder why.

There was a discussion on Always Learning years back. It wasn't the same question, but I know there are things in here that you could consider to your child's benefit.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AlwaysLearning/conversations/topics/8482

-=-Perhaps I'll let it rest again, even if it means Twizzlers and pizza. It's just distressing when we don't have those things.-=-

Then avoid distress by ALWAYS having those things. He won't eat the same thing for the rest of his life. If you can't fix what you see as a problem, at least don't make it worse by inducing distress! (and find a buffet; seriously :-) )

If others here want to find some other former discussions that might help, or links on Joyce's site or mine, please bring them! Today's Keith's last day in town before he leaves for a week, so I'm going to go hang out with him.

Sandra


michelle_m29@...

>Over the past few months I've become concerned that my 5 1/2 yo's highly selective eating is a problem for >him. Recently he was eating only highly sweetened foods like candy and kettlecorn, and pepperoni pizza but >only the parts with pepperoni on them. He is often hungry and seems sad and distressed. 

If he only eats the parts of the pizza with pepperoni on them, can you add more pepperoni so that it's all the "good part"?  What if you found recipes for other things with pepperoni on them....will he try things that he sees you eating? 

You've said that he seems pretty small for his age and that he's underweight. Before I jumped to fixing that, I'd ask the doctor (since you said you're going anyway) if he really is underweight or if he's just little. Some kids are built that way. 

I second Sandra's recommendation for buffets. My kids have tried all kinds of things that I never would have thought to offer them.  If something looks good, we take enough for a couple of bites and if it is good, we can go back for as much as they want. And I think all of the buffets we go to have pizza and lots of desserts. 

My 10yo has been in speech therapy since he was three or four and we're on our sixth therapist (due to changing insurance, staff turnover, one therapist who didn't like my son and I any more than we liked her). I sit in on every appointment. I'm the only parent there who does that, which I don't understand. I want to know what's going on. One of his therapists cheated at Chutes and Ladders, gloated when she won, and told my son no one would want to play with him if he wasn't a better sport. Not sure I would have believed that if i hadn't seen it myself.  Things have improved since I've insisted that they limit his therapy to exactly what he's there for.  (From what I see in the lobby, a lot of parents are using the therapists to help with behavioral issues at home. It's the same way in my daughter's karate class.)

Michelle 

PS -- I asked on the list a couple of years back about my son's difficulties in speech therapy. As his speech improved, all of the tantrums and behavior problems vanished. I really wish one of the experts had told me that explosive tantrums were typical for young children with apraxia of speech. That would have lessened my stress levels a LOT! 

Sarah Thompson

" Since he "seems sad and distressed", I would prioritise helping him be happier, over visiting to a doctor to "help him find foods he likes".  The effects of sad and distressed ripple out to affect all aspects of life, including eating."

I think that's a good point. He only seems sad and distressed about food, not other things, but maybe the sadness and distress over food is a manifestation of frustration and boredom that I'm not picking up on in time. I know *I* eat when I'm frustrated and bored.

He *wants* to see the doctor, so I'm not going to cancel the appointment, but maybe I can follow up the appointment with a trip to get the right pepperoni.

Sarah

On Aug 30, 2015 3:04 PM, "Sarah Thompson" <thompsonisland@...> wrote:

I meant the Whole Foods buffet, but I'll look for a restaurant. He eats with his tablet, and I think that works for him. It sounds like the key is not to run out of his favorite pepperoni pizza so I'll work on that. (I didn't post on Sandra's fb page but I read other posts). I'll make sure I keep monkey platters around for myself, although he doesn't like food that has been on anyone else's plate.

Talkies are talk therapists. Perhaps I haven't been clear-a classical homeopath does a lot of talk therapy-type assessment. And yes, a lot of folks in other health, nutritional and parenting groups recommend OTs, as well as friends who are talk therapists.

An OT isn't necessarily my goal, but it *is* what I asked about so I think I may have my answer there.

It sounds like there is probably more *and* less that I can do.

Sarah

On Aug 30, 2015 2:49 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-
The reason for OT is that, in asking around, "talkies" directed me to OTs.
A lot of people who have been through similar-sounding food issues also suggested OTs, and antibody testing.-=-

I don't know what you mean by "talkies."
"A lot" of people recommended occupational therapy for food aversions? Seriously?

-=-I haven't done a buffet restaurant, but sometimes we go to Whole Foods.-=-

At a buffet restaurant, the food has smells and textures and combinations that being at Whole Foods doesn't have anything to do with.
Try a buffet. Even if he only eats one thing, YOU can eat lots of things in front of him that you don't make at home, or that he's never seen.

-=-Maybe there is not an unschooling-friendly solution that involves an OT.-=-

If an OT is your goal, I still wonder why.

There was a discussion on Always Learning years back. It wasn't the same question, but I know there are things in here that you could consider to your child's benefit.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AlwaysLearning/conversations/topics/8482

-=-Perhaps I'll let it rest again, even if it means Twizzlers and pizza. It's just distressing when we don't have those things.-=-

Then avoid distress by ALWAYS having those things. He won't eat the same thing for the rest of his life. If you can't fix what you see as a problem, at least don't make it worse by inducing distress! (and find a buffet; seriously :-) )

If others here want to find some other former discussions that might help, or links on Joyce's site or mine, please bring them! Today's Keith's last day in town before he leaves for a week, so I'm going to go hang out with him.

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

-=-I agree about courtesy, and we do talk about that. But it still doesn't get him fed.-=-

You're confusing issues, though. Your evidence and reports are about things other than food. There seem to be relationship problems, but you're not asking about that, and occupational therapy isn't about relationships (nor about food issues).

Sandra

lucy.web

Another recommendation for buffet restaurants here.  My daughter would only eat a very small selection of foods.  We started going to a buffet, the same one each time.  The first time she chose plain white rice, chips, bread and ice cream.   All foods she knew she liked.  The second time she added one or two new things.  I think it was being able to see the foods, being able to try only a little, being able to go back for different things, and above all me being completely unemotionally attached to whether she ate the food or not: I hadn't cooked it, there was no pressure to like it, to try it, to finish it.   There hasn't been that pressure at home for many years, but there used to be, in a mild way, when she was very young.   Your son maybe had that pressure at his grandparents.

Now she will eat calamari, fried chicken, fried prawns, crab, pork dumplings, banana fritters, sushi ... all from eating in that restaurant.   Some of those things I can replicate at home so it has vastly opened up her choices.

She likes watching anime and had talked to me about some of the foods they eat on her favourite shows.  And so as soon as we got the chance we had a Japanese takeaway, with a lot of different, small 'snacks' on the menu.  I was amazed at how much she was happy to sample.

I read somewhere the idea that nutrient imbalances can cause people to eat only limited foods, because it's all their body is able to properly digest due to the imbalances.  I'm paraphrasing and maybe getting it wrong but it made sense to me when I read it.  So I added anything I could think of that I thought my daughter might like, to widen up the variety of trace nutrients.   Things like tinned fruits, different sorts of chocolate with different fillings, sweets, jellies, new cheeses, juices.  Your son might not be ready for that, but, after the buffets, my daughter was.  Slowly she began requesting new foods to try, and went back to some things that she hadn't eaten for years.

Lucy


Sent from my iPad

On 30 Aug 2015, at 18:27, Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

I haven't done a buffet restaurant, but sometimes we go to Whole Foods. So far nothing but pepperoni pizza has appealed. Unfortunately I bought the wrong pepperoni this time, and he doesn't like the pizza. He did eat a few pieces of plain sushi, though, so maybe the work with the homeopath is helping.


Sandra Dodd

-=-I meant the Whole Foods buffet, but I'll look for a restaurant. -=-

Not the same thing, when the food isn't close-up, and smelling like it smells, and with a vast quantity, and all one price. The Whole Foods "buffet" is a deli counter, isn't it? Of very expensive by the pound prepared foods with lots of ingredients kids might not like? And much of it cold foods?

-=- It sounds like the key is not to run out of his favorite pepperoni pizza so I'll work on that.-=-

There is no "the key." There is no one thing you can do and then sit back in sucess. This is about principles you can live by more solidly (for years, for life).

This might sound picky, but don't "work on that." DO that.

-=-And yes, a lot of folks in other health, nutritional and parenting groups recommend OTs, as well as friends who are talk therapists.-=-

If you want advice from radical unschoolers, don't expect us to defend or deflect "health groups" or "nutritional groups" or "parenting groups." You can't be and do everything. It sounds like you're taking too much particular input and not enough philosophical underpinnings about WHY do do things.

-=-He *wants* to see the doctor, so I'm not going to cancel the appointment, but maybe I can follow up the appointment with a trip to get the right pepperoni.-=-

If the appointment isn't within the next twelve hours, get the pepperoni he likes before you go to the doctor.

I'm guessing (and could be wrong) that you have a personal habit involving methodology—things in order, lists, what *should* be, and then what should be next.

This is not going to help you be a present, direct mom. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
If, in any small way, you're putting your vision of your child before your actual child, please change. Not after the pepperoni, not after the doctor's appointment, but a little bit right this moment.

http://sandradodd.com/readalittle

Sandra

semajrak@...

My son recently asked for a small fridge beside his desk where he has his computer.  We had been at a hotel with a stocked courtesy fridge, and he loved the idea.  He wanted one for himself.  We set it up for him.  Its a very small fridge (like 2 feet by 1 foot), stocked with things he's picked out for himself and some things I thought he might like.  If he doesn't reach for the things I thought he'd like, I take them out and put them in the big fridge for myself or my husband.  In his fridge right now, there is cheese, pepperoni sticks, Pringles chips, iced tea, fizzy water, individual fruit cups, individual hummus cups, carrot sticks.  On the top of the fridge are some pretzels for dipping hummus in, and crackers for cheese.  This fridge of Ethan's is only about 15 feet from the main fridge and pantry, but he loves having his own place for his very own food that he can pull out and munch on whenever he wants.  

I still offer and bring him breakfast, lunch and dinner, and will offer snacks throughout the day as well.  Lots of options.  No pressure.  "I'm having a sandwich.  Want one?"  "We're having salmon tonight.  Sound good?"  I do make sure to make meals I know he likes.  We're fortunate because Ethan does like most foods, so that makes things easier than if he had a more limited flavour palette.  For a couple of years from the ages of five to seven or so, he did seem to prefer mostly pale foods like potatoes, pasta and breads.  

I've notice over the last year, Ethan is eating bigger portions.  He's twelve now, and still very lean.  He's never been a person to eat big portions.  He prefers to graze on and off all day.  He says he prefers warm food at meal time, and savory food over sweet food.  Late in the evening he likes carbs in the form of mashed potatoes or macaroni and cheese.  We have some single serving frozen options in our freezer that can be heated up quickly and easily. He recently asked me to make quiche for dinner twice a week.

We've always talked about food--what he likes and doesn't like, what he wants and doesn't want, how much, how little, how often--in a casual, conversational way, the same way we talk about anything else he is engaged in.  I approach food like I do any other part of our day.  I try to find what works best, and do more of that until things change, then find something else that works, all the while throwing a little this or that in to see if it catches someone's interest.  With food, as with many things we do, I try to keep things light and playful and about enjoying the experience as much as possible.   

Karen James

Sandra Dodd

-=-I tried the suggestions I received on the unschooling facebook group but he got angry with me.-=-

Me: -=-My unschooling facebook group? Radical Unschooling Info? Or another one?-=-

Original poster: -=--My unschooling facebook group? Radical Unschooling Info? Or another one?-
Yours and Erika's. Advice from Alex, Joyce, Sylvias, Meredith, and many others who post here and elsewhere, as well as all the blogs you recommend. -=-
and
-=-(I didn't post on Sandra's fb page but I read other posts). -=-


From the ancient guidelines for posting on this list (this 14-year-old group):

ALL posts should be
• honest
• proofread
• sincere
• clear

A simple, clear, honest question is best.
But an advantage to a complicated question with extra details is that we can help see some of the larger problem.

I think maybe you wanted to say you had already done all you could glean or gather on your own without having asked the question, but what was implied was that you had asked for advice about this, and that I, Erika, Alex, Joyce, Sylvia (one or two of them), Meredith, and many others had failed to help you, so you needed to go beyond that. But you came here to ask us about occupational therapy, instead of asking your unschooling question for the first time, clearly.

In the course of this exchange, it seems you're rejecting ideas without taking time to try them. Please don't.
http://sandradodd.com/readalittle
Read a little.
Try a little.
Wait a while.
Watch.

Pam Laricchia's introduction to unschooling might help. I think you've not deschooled as far or as well as you might, and I'm guessing (could be wrong) that you're trying to create a fusion of ideas—radical unschooling, nutrition, "talkies" [the word "talky" is about a movie with sound, not about therapy, as far as I know as someone who's been quite interested in English (and movies, and psychology) for over half a century], and whatever parenting advice comes along.

IF you go through Pam's intro, you might relax about food and worries and outside measures. There is a lot of stuff between you and your child, I think.
http://livingjoyfully.ca/newsletter/
It will take a few weeks. Please go to a buffet half a dozen times in there. It's cheaper than occupational therapy, and don't involve other people. Be directly with your family, in a smiling, non-pressured, peaceful way, as often as possible. With practice, it can be almost continuous, day and night, for years.

Sandra

Clare Kirkpatrick

I think that you've made food become a huge issue for him. It may well have been tied up with your illness initially, but now it's also tied up with you being worried, a lot of possibly unwanted attention and pressure on him to be happy, to eat. Instead of focusing on fixing the negative, I would suggest focusing on increasing the positive. Let go of the worry and the desire to fix and reach for joy and happiness. Have lots of interesting food in the house. Don't make it for him or bring it to him. Bring him only what you already know he loves and make sure there is plenty of it - every time you bring or suggest something new to him you're adding to the pressure and his sensing your fear. Instead, joyfully bring him lots of pepperoni pizza. Eat with him and connect with him so that food becomes associated with joy rather than fear. And do other joyful things with him too to build that connection. Don't talk about the food, show him you're cool with helping him eat what he loves. Make the eating a side thing, diminish the power you've given it. As he realises his eating isn't something that has power over you or him, it will more than likely become more relaxed, more joyful. At the moment food and eating are filled with fear for him - yours and his - and making it medical and seeking treatment is all building up that fear and power further. Replace the fear with joy and connection. That's where healing is. 


Sent from Samsung Mobile

D. Regan

There are some perspectives in the emails which perhaps point to old patterns that may be holding you back in your relationship with your son.  You mention the "respectful dynamic" between you, but some of the comments point to you perceiving yourself as almost being a victim of his dominance.  

he got angry with me.

If I do something wrong, like buy the wrong cheese or make a suggestion, he throws things and storms away and won't eat anything at all.

I make the few foods he eats, but if they are wrong in any way, or if I am unable to because we are out of something, he just doesn't eat.

I bought the wrong pepperoni this time

like making a second dish if the first was wrong

Maybe it would help you to lighten up if you reframe those "wrong" things, as mistakes, or things he doesn't like at the moment, didn't feel like today, doesn't prefer, or things that could have been more cheesy or salty or smaller or dryer or hotter or pepperoni-er or ... 

"Wrong" is heavy, and life won't be as sparkly and joyful if that's how a dish or a cheese or a choice are perceived.   Wrong and right are too stark for the complex nuances that flow through daily life.  It's likely to be confusing and limiting for a 5yo who is learning about how the world works.  The more grounded you can be in seeing things as they are, the more your children will feel secure in your calm clarity, and flourish.

It might help to reflect on times in your past when you may have felt bullied and overwhelmed and think about how a more empowered or well-supported you, would have handled it;  with the aim of leaving old patterns in the past, so that now you can be a strong, creative, playful person in your children's lives.

This page of Sandra's is inspiring:-

Debbie :)

Alex & Brian Polikowsky

I want to say that what Clare wrote is prettying how I see it too.

You will be creating more issues around food by taking him to the doctor. I think you should absolutely relax and make sure you always have the food he eats. Make him feel secure about that.
Stop pressuring him and talking. 

Have different food! Eat with him at his computer table and have fun.
Don't restrict food in your house to only food perceived as whole and healthy! Bake some more with lots of colorful frosting! Have some more ice cream and candy! Peanut butter and chocolate. Open your home to all kinds of food!

If you are too uptight about eating "healthy" and organic food only that may be affecting him too.
If he feels he could be eating wrong. 
If you don't do that never mind.

Alex P

Ps if he eats the pepperoni only you can buy those  separate too! 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 31, 2015, at 2:51 AM, Clare Kirkpatrick clare.kirkpatrick@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

I think that you've made food become a huge issue for him. It may well have been tied up with your illness initially, but now it's also tied up with you being worried, a lot of possibly unwanted attention and pressure on him to be happy, to eat. Instead of focusing on fixing the negative, I would suggest focusing on increasing the positive. Let go of the worry and the desire to fix and reach for joy and happiness. Have lots of interesting food in the house. Don't make it for him or bring it to him. Bring him only what you already know he loves and make sure there is plenty of it - every time you bring or suggest something new to him you're adding to the pressure and his sensing your fear. Instead, joyfully bring him lots of pepperoni pizza. Eat with him and connect with him so that food becomes associated with joy rather than fear. And do other joyful things with him too to build that connection. Don't talk about the food, show him you're cool with helping him eat what he loves. Make the eating a side thing, diminish the power you've given it. As he realises his eating isn't something that has power over you or him, it will more than likely become more relaxed, more joyful. At the moment food and eating are filled with fear for him - yours and his - and making it medical and seeking treatment is all building up that fear and power further. Replace the fear with joy and connection. That's where healing is. 


Sent from Samsung Mobile


Sarah Thompson

I definitely don't have a "healthy food" hang up, but I think that I have in the past. I think I am working through my own issues, but food was not one of those from childhood.

Sandra has pointed out the relationship issue before, but here's my confusion. We are sweet and close most of the time, *except* for when he is hungry or if I am coaching him about yelling at me and throwing things (when he is hungry). *If* he is reacting to a bad feeling in his gut from eating foods that don't agree with him, we feel trapped in this dynamic. I have an acquaintance who spent his childhood in pain because he didn't know he had celiac disease. I don't see signs of that, but the way he reacts emotionally to food makes me wonder about his gut.

As mentioned above with the speech apraxia, if I am missing something physiological at the root of the problem, I can use the Hungry Angry Lonely Tired mnemonic to identify the issue but I am unsure how to fix it. So I think the suggestions to relax *more* must be the key, since something is causing him to feel a lack of control that manifests as lashing out at me *when* he in hungry. Does that make sense?

Sarah


Sarah Thompson

In my memory, my big issue from childhood was being made to go "do something," especially outside or active, when I really just wanted to lie on my bed and read or listen to music all the time. I craved companionship, too, but was socially awkward and miserable in the school social dynamic. I was suddenly, dramatically and painfully abandoned and abused by my "friends" when we entered junior high school. I've spent a lot of my life wanting acceptance and walking on eggshells to get it. So the walking on eggshells part seems to apply here.

Sarah


Bernadette Lynn

Don't coach him about yelling and throwing things when he's hungry, or when he's yelling and upset. Don't talk at him about what he's doing wrong when he really needs help doing things right.

Does he eat chocolate, or rice cakes or crisps? If he's too hungry to know what he wants or to be calm give him something quick and snacky to take the edge off and boost his blood sugar first, then talk about what he might need.

Bernadette.

On 31 August 2015 at 15:25, Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:


I definitely don't have a "healthy food" hang up, but I think that I have in the past. I think I am working through my own issues, but food was not one of those from childhood.

Sandra has pointed out the relationship issue before, but here's my confusion. We are sweet and close most of the time, *except* for when he is hungry or if I am coaching him about yelling at me and throwing things (when he is hungry). 





Sandra Dodd

-=-So I think the suggestions to relax *more* must be the key, since something is causing him to feel a lack of control that manifests as lashing out at me *when* he in hungry. Does that make sense?-=-

No, it doesn't.
You seem to think others here are suggesting that you cause HIM to relax.
YOU, the mom, are the one who needs to chill.

Before reading anything else, re-read this post, from me, from yesterday.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AlwaysLearning/conversations/messages/76133

Before posting anything else, re-read all the messages in this thread, sign up for Pam Laricchia's intro, re-read the link above AGAIN.

I was asking you to stop looking at this particular mess, and to look at your deschooling, your own emotions, your life and beliefs.
You can't write write write write write more about this problem and solve it. You need to stop, be still, look at the sky, breathe.

-=- We are sweet and close most of the time, *except* for when he is hungry or if I am coaching him about yelling at me and throwing things (when he is hungry). -=-
http://sandradodd.com/coaching
If you wait until he's angry, that's arguing, not coaching. If he's yelling and throwing things, that's fighting, not coaching.

Your entire unschooling needs to be fortified and clarified. Start with basics, and end with basic, and stop looking through the wrong end of the binoculars.

-=-In my memory, my big issue from childhood was being made to go "do something," especially outside or active, when I really just wanted to lie on my bed and read or listen to music all the time. I craved companionship, too, but was socially awkward and miserable in the school social dynamic. I was suddenly, dramatically and painfully abandoned and abused by my "friends" when we entered junior high school. I've spent a lot of my life wanting acceptance and walking on eggshells to get it. So the walking on eggshells part seems to apply here.-=-

Your child isn't in Jr. High. Your child isn't going to have school dynamics, if you can stop spinning your wheels where you are and move toward unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/doit

Don't post. Don't respond. Re-read this post as often as you need to, but don't post for at least a week. A month would be better. Make progress. See changes. Be with your child in other ways, different ways. You're in a loop. Change things.

Read a little (but first, this post, again, slowly and thoughtfully).
Try a little (a little—go to the page linked above and read what I mean by that, and why, and how).
Wait a while (not ten minutes, not half an hour—days).
Watch. Don't watch to prove yourself right and me wrong and your child faulty. Watch for goodness, and watch for peace.

Post again when you see things changing for the better.
Post after the second or third time you go to the buffet restaurant.

Sandra

K Pennell

About six months ago, my husband wanted to lose weight. He is overweight, and asked for help to lose weight. I would make suggestions, watch documentaries and share all about them.

The unintended consequence was that my 12 year old heard these conversations, and said "you're making me afraid to eat". Thankfully, he was old enough and aware enough to tell me this, so I stopped having those conversations, stopped watching or discussing the documentaries around him.

It's likely your son may be sensing your worry about food, and feeling stressed out. Try to relax. Many kids go through food jags where they want nothing but peanut butter crackers, or nothing but pepperoni pizza. One of my kids ate pretty much nothing but cereal for the longest time (his choice). Then it was PB&J. He eats lots of foods now, though, and is a healthy adult.

When my child was yelling or hitting, I'd walk away. I wouldn't say a lot. If anything, I'd calmly say "Don't hit" or "Stop" but then turn around and leave the room if it continued.  I don't want him to think it's ok to do that, but it's not the right time to process it. My boys never really wanted to have a big discussion after, either, just a cuddle to know I wasn't mad at them.



From: "Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Occupational Therapy



I definitely don't have a "healthy food" hang up, but I think that I have in the past. I think I am working through my own issues, but food was not one of those from childhood.
Sandra has pointed out the relationship issue before, but here's my confusion. We are sweet and close most of the time, *except* for when he is hungry or if I am coaching him about yelling at me and throwing things (when he is hungry). *If* he is reacting to a bad feeling in his gut from eating foods that don't agree with him, we feel trapped in this dynamic. I have an acquaintance who spent his childhood in pain because he didn't know he had celiac disease. I don't see signs of that, but the way he reacts emotionally to food makes me wonder about his gut.
As mentioned above with the speech apraxia, if I am missing something physiological at the root of the problem, I can use the Hungry Angry Lonely Tired mnemonic to identify the issue but I am unsure how to fix it. So I think the suggestions to relax *more* must be the key, since something is causing him to feel a lack of control that manifests as lashing out at me *when* he in hungry. Does that make sense?
Sarah