bonniecrocker2003@...

Hi everyone,


I'm in need of some quick advice on how to handle an issue with my daughter who is 11 years old.  She is currently in a one week cheerleading camp which ends tomorrow.


The instructor had each child put together a book out of construction paper for the purpose of writing about themselves and then they would exchange with someone else in class to take their book home to write words of encouragement in it. This hasn't been a problem as I have done the writing for my daughter because she rarely writes on paper so she isn't even close to writing fluently.  For purposes of discussion, all 3 of my kids probably write on a preschooler to early elementary level.  They do the majority of their writing on the computer which makes sense, of course, in today's world asking me throughout the day how to spell words. She came up with some of the ideas and I helped fill in.  She's pretty shy about talking about herself, often saying I don't know what to say so I helped.  This has worked quite well all week.  


However, after camp today, my daughter got in the car and started crying saying she now wishes I sent her to school because she doesn't know how to write like everyone else.  She said the coach is going to give out all the books tomorrow and everyone is suppose to write in the books in class. She says that she is going to be embarrassed because she doesn't know how to write.  I didn't really know what to say to her other than maybe we could tell the coach she had something like dysgraphia or dyslexia.  She was okay with this and then a short time later started crying again and said she didn't want to go. She calmed down when I told her I would take care of it.  That was the only thing I could think of in the moment.


I have the coach's email and thought about writing to her shortly to ask her not to have Chloe write in the books but, of course, I don't want her to be singled out and everyone asking why Chloe isn't writing.   I'm a bit weary with this coach anyway because the first day Chloe misunderstood about writing in the other girl's book words of encouragement so she didn't do it and when she took the book in, the coach said when one falls, we all fall and made the other girls (who groaned loudly) run two extra laps.  I wasn't too happy about this and Chloe started crying when telling me.  My oldest son was quick to tell his sister that this wasn't true because if the person on the top of the pyramid falls, not everyone falls.  


If I write an email, what should I say?  I live in Germany so it's 7 pm my time.  She has cheerleading camp tomorrow at 0900.  Thank you for any input to help us out in this sticky situation.  Bonnie

Sandra Dodd

Search for "barn dance" in here to read about a camp Holly needed to read for. There might be something in there about Kirby going to karate before he could write, and me calmly but firmly defending my assisting him.

http://sandradodd.com/r/threereaders

But for today, if it were me, I would do this:

Get up early—wake her up early.

I hope she knows the names of the other girls. If not, this might not work as well.
She could speak to you what she would like to say to each of them in the book. Type it out, print it, cut those (not too close) into smaller papers (make sure each has the girl's name on it, and your daughter's name at the end). Take her there, with a glue stick, to put each one in the proper book. Not wet glue, because that could make a mess. If you don't have a glue stick, maybe two or three stickers on the edges or corners would work.

That's a way she could say something very personal and real, and have it in her own words, and get them in the other girls' books.

Sandra

bonniecrocker2003@...

Since it was getting late, I wrote an email to her.  I told her that Chloe had dysphagia and that we are working on it and she is getting help and coming along nicely but for now I assist her while she dictates her thoughts and ideas to me.  I requested that she not ask Chloe to write in other's books for now.  I don't like lying like that but it is all I could come up with.

I haven't heard anything back yet and I sent it a couple of hours ago so will probably have to do one one one tomorrow.

I like what you suggested and those out of the box ideas are exactly what I need so I will put that in my toolbox for future use.  

My worry is that next time, there won't be a warning and one of my kids will be required to write something or handed a form to fill out and give back right then and there. I've already got a raised eyebrow with a shaking of the head from one of the bowling coaches when my oldest wrote his 3 backwards for his bowling score.  He just turned 14.

I'm also a bit sad that she believes if I had sent her to school, she would be able to write since everyone else in her class appears to be able to do so.  She's blaming me for not being able to write.  She just started reading btw as well as her twin brother around 6 months ago.

How do I handle those issues?  

Bonnie

P.S.  I didn't see anything about the karate and writing unless I overlooked it.  I would be interested in reading that.

Sandra Dodd

-=- I didn't see anything about the karate and writing unless I overlooked it. I would be interested in reading that.
-=-

Http://sandradodd.com/search
I didn't read the whole article; I remembered the one story.

-=-I'm also a bit sad that she believes if I had sent her to school, she would be able to write since everyone else in her class appears to be able to do so. She's blaming me for not being able to write. She just started reading btw as well as her twin brother around 6 months ago.-=-

I've known of three unschooled kids who didn't read until 14 or 15. Now with your kids, that's five.

Fourteen is pretty old to write a three backwards, honestly.

-=-I told her that Chloe had dysphagia and that we are working on it and she is getting help and coming along nicely but for now I assist her while she dictates her thoughts and ideas to me. I requested that she not ask Chloe to write in other's books for now. I don't like lying like that but it is all I could come up with.-=-

Why do you think it's a lie, if she and her brother both are having that much trouble at this age?

Were they in school at one point? You don't need to tell us anything you don't want to. What I'm thinking is that if you brought them home because school was hard, schooling could've been a factor and they might have started off with resistance and trauma, bad grades, labeling—I don't know.

If they were never in school, and if you want to share why you think they didn't find more opportunities to write just a bit, or write numbers, that might be helpful to other unschoolers.

My kids wrote numbers keeping scores for games at home, and just messing around together with us, writing or drawing. Numbering lists of names of My Little Ponies or whatever. Sometimes keyboard, sometimes with handwriting.

If you want to read more about other families later, please use the search at the bottom of the page at that link, and you'll get things on my site, Joyce Fetteroll's and Pam Laricchia's.

Sandra

Vicki Dennis

*I* would not think of it as lying.    My opinion is that if you call it lying, then your children will consider it so.
I look on such word usage as simply communicating in a way that can be understood by a particular audience while doing parental duty of protecting your children. Being aware of your audience when trying to communicate is a useful skill.  

I think it may have been here long ago that I learned the value of
"He is not reading YET"  instead of "He can't read".    Or write.

I empathize with your sadness at her belief that if only you had sent her to school she would not have these issues.    Try not to take it personally.

vicki

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:49 PM, bonniecrocker2003@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Since it was getting late, I wrote an email to her.  I told her that Chloe had dysphagia and that we are working on it and she is getting help and coming along nicely but for now I assist her while she dictates her thoughts and ideas to me.  I requested that she not ask Chloe to write in other's books for now.  I don't like lying like that but it is all I could come up with.


I haven't heard anything back yet and I sent it a couple of hours ago so will probably have to do one one one tomorrow.

I like what you suggested and those out of the box ideas are exactly what I need so I will put that in my toolbox for future use.  

My worry is that next time, there won't be a warning and one of my kids will be required to write something or handed a form to fill out and give back right then and there. I've already got a raised eyebrow with a shaking of the head from one of the bowling coaches when my oldest wrote his 3 backwards for his bowling score.  He just turned 14.

I'm also a bit sad that she believes if I had sent her to school, she would be able to write since everyone else in her class appears to be able to do so.  She's blaming me for not being able to write.  She just started reading btw as well as her twin brother around 6 months ago.

How do I handle those issues?  

Bonnie

P.S.  I didn't see anything about the karate and writing unless I overlooked it.  I would be interested in reading that.


J. Davis Harte

I am just noticing an important difference in what you've written and respectfully would like to point it out to you in case you hadn't noticed:

From Bonnie's  first post: -=- we could tell the coach she had something like dysgraphia or dyslexia-=-

From her second post -=-I told her that Chloe had dysphagia -=-  

I was very curious what this word 'dysphagia' meant, as I hadn't heard it before. This is what the google search told me: "difficulty or discomfort in swallowing, as a symptom of disease."

You seem to have switched terms, which could be very confusing.


--
J. Davis Harte
•Paradigm___Spaces•

j.davisharte@...

bonniecrocker2003@...

"You seem to have switched terms, which could be very confusing."

You are correct.  I did switch terms which was an accident.  I'm an old neuro nurse and it was common for my patients with head injuries to have dysphagia.  Without thinking I put that term down and interestingly enough about an hour later a light bulb went off in my head and I realized that I might have done that.

The instructor never checked her email so I explained the situation this morning and told her to disregard the term that I had put down.

That needed to be clarified for the purposes of this discussion so thank you.  With regard to the instructor, I don't think it made a difference for the purpose of dealing with the issue but I did bring the correct term to her attention.

I am going to take the kids to a bbq now so would like to answer the other posts when I get back.

Sarah Thompson

I have a question on this subject. My kids are 9 and 5, so it's early in the scheme of school curricula, but both children don't have much interest in writing on paper. Wallace, 9, does a lot of typing on the computer, and his vocabularly, grammar and spelling are improving in this way. I imagine the 5yo will follow a similar trajectory.

The other day, a friend couldn't understand Wallace's pronunciation of "challenge," and I heard him work on his enunciation and clarity until he was understood. If a child is not writing clearly at 14, say, is the same type of influence typically a motivator to improve? Outside of the angst about wishing mom had made him or her learn it earlier (and I have felt that way my whole life about anything I wish I knew, and I went to school, so unschooling seems like an easy scapegoat!), is it generally the case that such an experience serves as a natural push to work toward greater proficiency?

Since I don't have any that age yet, I'm curious what parents of older children have experienced.

Sarah

Judy W

===If they were never in school, and if you want to share why you think they didn't find more opportunities to write just a bit, or write numbers, that might be helpful to other unschoolers.===

My boys are 7 and 9 (always unschooled), and even though I keep an eye out, writing opportunities don't seem to present themselves very often.  So, yes, I would love if people could post some ideas.

Our sons see me and their dad writing grocery lists, reminder notes, phone messages, filling out forms (although that's not very frequent), signing and addressing greeting cards, but by far, most of our writing is done on the keyboard.  As for our sons' writing, we help them by typing things for them or telling them how to spell things...mostly in their game chats...when they ask.  They also help each other when one guy knows how to type a word the other one doesn't.

I can see where coloring or drawing could help as they'd be using the same small hand muscles as one would to write.  They do this occasionally, but much less frequently than when they were a few years younger.  My older son does hold a pencil (pen, crayon, etc.) in the ordinary way people do for writing on paper, but my younger son does not and says "it's hard" when he tries.  They're both great at working a computer keyboard and gaming mouse, so it's certainly not a hand muscle "problem".

Looking forward to more ideas!

Judy

semajrak@...

<<I told her that Chloe had dysphagia and that we are working on it and she is getting help and coming along nicely but for now I assist her while she dictates her thoughts and ideas to me.  I requested that she not ask Chloe to write in other's books for now.  I don't like lying like that but it is all I could come up with.>>


One of the things I needed to come to terms with when we committed to learning naturally was that there would be great variability in Ethan's abilities when compared to his peers.  I grew to see that as a strength, not just something to accept.  For Ethan it means he can really dive into and get quite proficient at the things that really interest him.  By doing so, he has developed a deep trust in his own ability to learn what he needs to learn to do what he wants to do.


Ethan is not strong at handwriting.  He rarely chooses to write on paper.  Mad Libs, a Question and Answer journal we both pick up now and then, birthday cards for family and friends, the occasional note or list or game is about all his writing on paper amounts to.  Most other writing he does on his computer.  He reads well.  His comprehension is good.  His vocabulary is excellent.  He can type using his style of typing pretty effectively.  Hence, his communication skills are good, I'd say. He just doesn't prefer to use handwriting as a frequent means of communicating.  


Talk to Ethan about space or elements or basic concepts in physics, he'll be at ease and confident in the exchange.  Put a pen in his hand, he'll pause.  I have no doubt that if he wanted to spend more time writing on paper he'd become proficient.  Right now, however, he's slower and has to think about it.  He knows that's true.  It's not important to him right now.


I remember going on a road trip with a friend of mine in my early twenties.  We drove across the country in an old Chevette in which we needed to top up the oil at nearly every gas fill-up, and the transmission fluid about half as often.  Along the way we blew three tires.  I'd never blown a tire before.  I quickly learned what that felt like the first time it happened.  I'd never changed a tire before.  I quickly learned to do that too...and then had some extra practice...with mis-matched bolts and only one size ratchet...but that's another story.  ;-)


Sometimes we learn things because all of a sudden it becomes necessary.  Other times we learn things over a longer stretch of time, fueled by interest or necessity or opportunity or chance.  In school learning is scheduled.  That sets up artificial expectations about what is necessary and when.  Handwriting today isn't as necessary as it was before widespread computer usage.  It makes sense, therefore, to spend more time on pursuits that *are* more relevant to today.  That's smart, not something to be embarrassed about. 


I understand that it's stressful to not be on par with peers, but I fear that if you are making up a diagnosis for your child to compensate for a lack of skill, you are effectively telling your daughter than she has a problem that will make learning that skill more challenging.  She isn't currently skilled at handwriting because she doesn't use that skill much.  If that bothers her, help her write more.  Play writing games (Likewise and Balderdash are a couple we've enjoyed), get her a journal (the Question and Answer ones Ethan and I have are fun and simple), pick up some Mad Libs, buy some markers that can write on glass and leave each other notes on mirrors...etc. 


In the meantime, if it was me, I would let her teacher know that she does most of her writing via computer rather than saying she has a problem.  Ask if she can print things out ahead of time (like Sandra suggested).  Our friend was able to take his tests in school using a computer.  He's faster and more competent on a keyboard.  Times are changing.  Our kids are living in the present, not the past.  It's nothing to be embarrassed about.  But, if your daughter does feel embarrassed, and is eager to improve her handwriting, make it fun and engaging.  You stay calm.  Don't add to her anxiety.  Show her it's nothing out of the ordinary.  It's all part learning, and new things to learn will be a constant part of life...hopefully!  :-)


Karen James

Jo Isaac

In response to this --==If they were never in school, and if you want to share why you think they didn't find more opportunities to write just a bit, or write numbers, that might be helpful to other unschoolers.===

We are also are finding very few opportunities for Kai (also always unschooled) to write, even a bit. He finds writing extremely hard, and will avoid it if at all possible. His handwriting looks similar to probably a 5 year olds (he's 9), and though he can read and spell, he forgets how to form certain letters when writing because he does it so rarely.

So far that hasn't been a problem - he will sign his name in a card, and we have only had one time where he was asked (out of the blue) to write in public - at soccer they asked him to write his full name in a card to the coach at the end of the season. I realised at that point he didn't know how to write his full name (he was 8 - and he wasn't reading then). He just wrote 'Kai' and I said that'd be OK since he's the only Kai on the team - but we went home and practiced writing his full name until he could do it.

He types on the computer, on Skype chat, text messages, on Instagram - so his written communications are just fine....but at some point the writing may become an issue, and there really aren't natural opportunities to practice that are popping up in our life.

So that is our experience so far.
Cheers
Jo



Sandra Dodd

http://sandradodd.com/cursive

Kirby's writing wasn't quick and readable until he was 19 and working at a pizza place taking phone orders that cooks needed to be able to read.
I know I told that story well, and went to look, but it was in a conference presentation that wasn't recorded. (Or recording was lost, or something—if anyone has one, please send it or put it where we can hear it!)

http://sandradodd.com/hsc/unschoolingwell.html

Other ideas about writing:
http://sandradodd.com/writing (and that leads to other pages—don't think any of these are the one and only stand-alone all-you-ever-wanted-to-know kinds of pages. Nothing is.

Sandra

Steph Selby

If she is interested there are also writing apps on tablets. My kids like to do them, they get to trace the letters, available in both script and cursive. 

Steph


On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/cursive

Kirby's writing wasn't quick and readable until he was 19 and working at a pizza place taking phone orders that cooks needed to be able to read.
I know I told that story well, and went to look, but it was in a conference presentation that wasn't recorded.  (Or recording was lost, or something—if anyone has one, please send it or put it where we can hear it!)

http://sandradodd.com/hsc/unschoolingwell.html

Other ideas about writing:
http://sandradodd.com/writing (and that leads to other pages—don't think any of these are the one and only stand-alone all-you-ever-wanted-to-know kinds of pages.  Nothing is.

Sandra

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bonniecrocker2003@...

"I've known of three unschooled kids who didn't read until 14 or 15. Now with your kids, that's five."


I probably confused you. Hunter who turned 14 in June started reading around 10 1/2. He picked up a preschool book and offered to read it to his bother and sister and progressed from there.


I didn't really notice exactly when Raleigh and Chloe started reading but I believe it was closer to 11. They will be 12 in November. This is probably because I was breathing easier after Hunter started reading. Regardless, all 3 are late readers by school standards.


"Fourteen is pretty old to write a three backwards, honestly."


I agree. We played boggle recently and he numbered 1-10 and 6 out of the 10 numbers were backwards. The only ones he wrote correctly were the 2,6,8 and the 10. He also wrote his C backwards when writing a word. He prints all words in caps and it is readable and fairly neat but I don't think he knows how to write smaller letters. He did recognize that the 3 was backwards and grinned telling me he had dyslexia. I'm not sure he recognizes when he does it all the time. That is because I told him some time ago that I suspected he had it. I made it clear that it had nothing to do with his intelligence and he seemed very relieved to know there might be a good reason for his difficulties. I asked him if anyone says anything when he writes his bowling scores down when he is in the bowling league and he told me that the instructor asked him if he realized he was writing his numbers backwards and he told the instructor that he had difficulty with numbers.


"Why do you think it's a lie, if she and her brother both are having that much trouble at this age?"


Hunter's is probably due to dyslexia but all three rarely write on paper and when they do, it is just their name or doodling or drawing. It's hard to tell how much is due simply to the fact that they don't write very much. If we make cards, they will dictate to me what to write and the most they will do is sign their names. I've asked Hunter if he would mind signing for a package if the DHL guy comes around when I'm out and he gets really upset. I've even told him all he has to do is scribble because they don't care.

I do realize that that many unschoolers can write without school (obviously) but I will say that I think that R&C would probably be writing similar to their peers if they had attended school. Hunter would have probably have been shamed to death. I'm only saying this as an observation and not because I think they should have gone to school for the purposes of writing because I have no doubt that it would have come at a great cost but it is the only explanation I can think of as to why their peers are writing and they aren't. There is no reason for them to write on paper at home anything more than a few words.


"If they were never in school, and if you want to share why you think they didn't find more opportunities to write just a bit, or write numbers, that might be helpful to other unschoolers."


My children have never been in school. I actually went to an unschooling conference where you spoke, Sandra along with Joyce in Peabody, Massachusetts years ago and have followed you ever since.


After thinking about your question, it's probably due to lack of encouragement and not seeking opportunities for them to write as much as I could. They spend their days happily on their computers playing minecraft, watching youtube videos, skyping, and online games with others. Activities such as sports and dance are in the afternoon. They have been to 6 different countries in the past 8 months so we travel quite a bit. We go locally to many different cultural events/fests. Their days don't naturally incorporate writing of any kind on paper. Chloe used to like pretend being a waitress, taking our order and serving us play food but she hasn't done this in a long time. I asked about Hunter's spelling a year or so ago on this list and got the mad libs and a few other suggestions including a diary of some sort where a question is asked and you answer it but I think he did that for a couple of days and that was it.


I guess I'm just stuck in how this occurs naturally in those who may not be particularly interested in writing and what would motivate someone their age with little interest to write on paper? If one is having difficulty with writing such as Hunter, why would he want to write on paper then? He uses a lot of the internet shortcuts too if he writes to friends but most of those messages are short, maybe 3-4 words. He just texted me from his room not too long ago:


He was telling me he would take out the dog (male) tomorrow. Here is what he wrote:


i will take hem out tomoro


Next he told me he was hungry and saw that it wasn't correct apparently but got it right on the 3rd try:


im hungre

hundry

hungry

I asked him what he wanted:

punut butter sandwitch


Since this happened with Chloe and the camp is over, she hasn't said any more about it or asked me to help her write even though she was upset because she said her handwriting was horrible.


I'll look around your site some more and do some googling. I need to educate myself on this.


Bonnie





-

bonniecrocker2003@...

"I understand that it's stressful to not be on par with peers, but I fear that if you are making up a diagnosis for your child to compensate for a lack of skill, you are effectively telling your daughter than she has a problem that will make learning that skill more challenging"

I'm certain that I got that idea off one of the unschooling lists long ago.  Maybe the one that Meredith use to head?   I can't remember.  I made note of it in my head to keep people off my back.  I have to be careful. While I agree that it is better to say Chloe isn't reading yet.....or Chloe is writing well yet over here that can open the door to someone wanting to investigate me for educational neglect.  I try and keep a low profile.  It's illegal in Germany to homeschool.  I only get to do it because my husband is over here for his job and we are under the SOFA agreement which allows us to do so.  I had a terrible experience a few years ago so I'm very wary.

Chloe asked me what I was going to say to the instructor so I was honest with her.  People expect 11 year olds to be writing.  She hasn't said anything further since the camp ended on Saturday.

I never heard from the instructor regarding the email I sent her so I spoke to her that morning.  I told her to disregard my error in terms and explained the situation.  She smiled and said no problem.  She stated that she wasn't going to have them write anyway. This was at 9 am and at noon I came back along with my husband to watch Chloe perform.  When we walked in, she was sitting smack dab in the middle of the group frowning with one of the girl's books in front of her. Despite what the instructor told me that very morning, Chloe said she handed out the books and didn't say a word.  They were given 3 minutes to write something and Chloe said she wrote one sentence and that her handwriting was horrible.  I guess the instructor forgot.

"Sometimes we learn things because all of a sudden it becomes necessary"

There's the problem right there.  It hasn't been necessary.  Hunter is very introverted and prefers to spend most of his time on the computer and even takes his food to his room to eat most of the time.  He has a couple of online friends and one friend that he sees on rare occasions.  He seems to be content this way. He doesn't like going to the teen center.  He went twice and that was it.  He won't go out of his way to meet anyone.  If they don't come up to him and try to engage him, he won't bother.  One of his coaches kiddingly told him a couple of years ago that he talks too much. He did play baseball and is on a bowling league and he, of course, comes with us when we travel but he is very attached to his computer and will get upset when we travel if we stay somewhere with slow/bad internet.

I've actually done okay as far as not being overly anxious.  If the world consisted of just the 5 of us, it wouldn't be a problem.  It's protecting my kids from being shamed by people and also trying not to draw attention to our lifestyle if at all possible that is my major concern.

So far we have managed but this was an unusual case.  I wouldn't have thought in a cheerleading camp that writing would be of such great importance.  I could see one of them being handed a form to fill out and being required to hand back and me not being there.  If I'm there, I always help.  Again, the expectation from others is that your kids should be writing and the older they get, the more likely the occasional writing might be required.  

It must have been you that suggested the Q&A book.  It didn't work with Hunter but it may just work with my twins.  I will try it!  Also, if they do it, he might pick it up again too.

Bonnie




 

Sarah Thompson

I love exchanging texts with my kids, and it's cool that he communicates with you that way. What happens if you make suggestions/corrections to his typing? My son is receptive to this. I don't do it before responding to the content, but after.

I know that doesn't address Chloe's writing, but it caught my eye.

Sarah

Erin & Keith

I have a 12 year old who was also a late reader and still has somewhat poor spelling.

Whenever we are texting or chatting online and he mispells a word I type back the correct spelling. I don't harp on him about it at all, just show him the proper way. This has seemed to help a lot, as I believe he really wants to be able to write/spell well and be understood.

"I guess I'm just stuck in how this occurs naturally in those who may not be particularly interested in writing and what would motivate someone their age with little interest to write on paper?"

My son doesn't hand write a whole lot either, but he does keep a piece of paper on the computer desk. He's often writing down a new server address or new friend's username. Maybe others just copy and paste though?

Another idea I just had is to maybe write him notes,  instead of texting him? Like leave a short note on the table with a hope for him to jot back a quick answer (if handwriting is the goal).

Hope this helps,
Erin 

Joyce Fetteroll

*** my daughter got in the car and started crying saying she now wishes I sent her to school because she doesn't know how to write like everyone else. ***

Once she's past this, it might help to ask her how she thinks she would have learned to write in school. What would teachers have done that she couldn't do at home?

She may know that she would have been made to do boring practice, but unless she pulls that thought out to examine it, it may be floating around in her head as a magic that happens just by being in school. And if so she'll continue to resent that you kept her from that magic when the reality is hours and hours of being made to write things kids don't want to but have no choice about.

Does she like poetry or reading? One thing that authors do is keep a journal of their favorite bits and pieces. There's something about physically writing it out -- even more so than typing -- that helps make it a part of you.

Another idea similar to the Q&A is a collaborative story. One person starts with a sentence or two. The next person adds a sentence or two. And it keeps going. It sometimes helps, as you'll find, to stop a sentence midway at a dramatic moment to let the other person fill in what happens. Like, "She opened the door to find ..."

What can make it even funnier is when it's done with 5 or more. The paper gets folded over so just the most recent sentence can be read. So people adding to the story don't know what prompted the sentence they're adding to.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-Another idea similar to the Q&A is a collaborative story. One person starts with a sentence or two. The next person adds a sentence or two. And it keeps going. It sometimes helps, as you'll find, to stop a sentence midway at a dramatic moment to let the other person fill in what happens. Like, "She opened the door to find ..."-=-

There's another paper-and-pencil game where artists can get as much positive regard as writers, and the writing doesn't need to be fancy.

http://sandradodd.com/writey

Those directions were written by Holly when she was a teen. It was just for my benefit, and she let me keep it and share it, but there's a misspelling, and it doesn't look like a near-college-aged person's writing is thought to look. As to the other writing, below that, some was by unschoolers, some by late-teen/young-adult "school kids," some by college students or graduates. My own writing is "and heard music playing!" It's not pretter than soe of the others. But for the purposes of this game, that didn't matter. The exploding banjo comment (based on a picture I drew, in my attempt to show a "bad ass banjo") is all block printed and the "e" are funny, but the comment was GREAT, and that was good writing.

Handwriting is not the same as writing is. That's important for unschooling parents to really think about. Writing has to do with ideas and the sound and flow and choice of words. Handwriting, penmanship—someone can have BEAUTIFUL penmanship and never have written a single thing worth sharing with another human being. So please, even if you're angsty, don't forget that there is a large range of activities that English speakers call altogether "writing."

The title on this page is also by Holly, but it's drawing / lettering, and not writing,

http://sandradodd.com/writing

Sandra

Alex & Brian Polikowsky

My daughter has gotten better at writing in paper. She is 9.
She helps dad write lists of things to
Do
In the farm and record cow treatments in his paper tablet .
She and dad do a lot of crossword puzzles and she started doing some Sudoku
She makes tags to tag calves ( plastic tags with the animal names that go in their ears).

She has written little hints in cards to friends before and so on.

She has filled entry forms for cow shows.
She has written stuff at Sunday School and another church program where she completed the book.

She is much quicker and better now than a year ago and it is all things related to her interests and that she wants to do it.

Before her letters were big and it took her effort to write but now she just does it happily.before I did wrote for her any time she asked. Still it did not stop her from getting better when writing became something she wanted to do.

Having said that she is an avid writer online . She plays lots
Of role play with friends and chats on Skype. She reads a lot of books and she reads a lot online.

She has started to write Fan Fiction. She is an amazing speller and she writes better than I do :)

My son is 13 and he is also an amazing speller. He reads and writes online but not as much as she does . Although he did write a lot in role plays in the past and it was amazing. He also helped add stuff on wiki pages before.

He rarely writes but when he does, although it is slower, his handwriting is neat. He prints small and very pretty letters.

I am not worried . I know when he needs and wants he will be able to do it. He types extremely fast and that is a great skill today.

I am learning Korean. It is a brand new alphabet to me.
I can read anything ( even if I do not know the meaning) but I read it very slow. I print awkwardly too! Not pretty or neat. It will get better but I am not really working in handwriting Hangul.

I can type it!

한국어 아츠 추든 할 소 잇서요

That says I can speak very little Korean :)

It is so much fun for me.

I think my kids will feel the same excitement when they want to do it more for fun as I do see Gigi when she is playing Mad Libs or crosswords!
Or making cow tags!

Alex Polikowsky 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 20, 2015, at 7:04 PM, bonniecrocker2003@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

"I've known of three unschooled kids who didn't read until 14 or 15. Now with your kids, that's five."


I probably confused you. Hunter who turned 14 in June started reading around 10 1/2. He picked up a preschool book and offered to read it to his bother and sister and progressed from there.


I didn't really notice exactly when Raleigh and Chloe started reading but I believe it was closer to 11. They will be 12 in November. This is probably because I was breathing easier after Hunter started reading. Regardless, all 3 are late readers by school standards.


"Fourteen is pretty old to write a three backwards, honestly."


I agree. We played boggle recently and he numbered 1-10 and 6 out of the 10 numbers were backwards. The only ones he wrote correctly were the 2,6,8 and the 10. He also wrote his C backwards when writing a word. He prints all words in caps and it is readable and fairly neat but I don't think he knows how to write smaller letters. He did recognize that the 3 was backwards and grinned telling me he had dyslexia. I'm not sure he recognizes when he does it all the time. That is because I told him some time ago that I suspected he had it. I made it clear that it had nothing to do with his intelligence and he seemed very relieved to know there might be a good reason for his difficulties. I asked him if anyone says anything when he writes his bowling scores down when he is in the bowling league and he told me that the instructor asked him if he realized he was writing his numbers backwards and he told the instructor that he had difficulty with numbers.


"Why do you think it's a lie, if she and her brother both are having that much trouble at this age?"


Hunter's is probably due to dyslexia but all three rarely write on paper and when they do, it is just their name or doodling or drawing. It's hard to tell how much is due simply to the fact that they don't write very much. If we make cards, they will dictate to me what to write and the most they will do is sign their names. I've asked Hunter if he would mind signing for a package if the DHL guy comes around when I'm out and he gets really upset. I've even told him all he has to do is scribble because they don't care.

I do realize that that many unschoolers can write without school (obviously) but I will say that I think that R&C would probably be writing similar to their peers if they had attended school. Hunter would have probably have been shamed to death. I'm only saying this as an observation and not because I think they should have gone to school for the purposes of writing because I have no doubt that it would have come at a great cost but it is the only explanation I can think of as to why their peers are writing and they aren't. There is no reason for them to write on paper at home anything more than a few words.


"If they were never in school, and if you want to share why you think they didn't find more opportunities to write just a bit, or write numbers, that might be helpful to other unschoolers."


My children have never been in school. I actually went to an unschooling conference where you spoke, Sandra along with Joyce in Peabody, Massachusetts years ago and have followed you ever since.


After thinking about your question, it's probably due to lack of encouragement and not seeking opportunities for them to write as much as I could. They spend their days happily on their computers playing minecraft, watching youtube videos, skyping, and online games with others. Activities such as sports and dance are in the afternoon. They have been to 6 different countries in the past 8 months so we travel quite a bit. We go locally to many different cultural events/fests. Their days don't naturally incorporate writing of any kind on paper. Chloe used to like pretend being a waitress, taking our order and serving us play food but she hasn't done this in a long time. I asked about Hunter's spelling a year or so ago on this list and got the mad libs and a few other suggestions including a diary of some sort where a question is asked and you answer it but I think he did that for a couple of days and that was it.


I guess I'm just stuck in how this occurs naturally in those who may not be particularly interested in writing and what would motivate someone their age with little interest to write on paper? If one is having difficulty with writing such as Hunter, why would he want to write on paper then? He uses a lot of the internet shortcuts too if he writes to friends but most of those messages are short, maybe 3-4 words. He just texted me from his room not too long ago:


He was telling me he would take out the dog (male) tomorrow. Here is what he wrote:


i will take hem out tomoro


Next he told me he was hungry and saw that it wasn't correct apparently but got it right on the 3rd try:


im hungre

hundry

hungry

I asked him what he wanted:

punut butter sandwitch


Since this happened with Chloe and the camp is over, she hasn't said any more about it or asked me to help her write even though she was upset because she said her handwriting was horrible.


I'll look around your site some more and do some googling. I need to educate myself on this.


Bonnie





-

anna.black@...

I realised recently that my 8-year-old didn't know which were the capitals and which were the lower case letters.  She knew that each letter had two forms and could recognise all of them when she was reading, but telling her to use a capital for someone's name or whatever when she was writing a birthday card didn't make sense to her.

I know she's reaching the age now that other people will expect her to know this stuff and she's very sensitive and self-conscious. So I made up a game where we matched and separated the letters.  She wasn't super keen on it, but I was looking at it as a form of coaching her to live comfortably in the world, similar to understanding and using other social conventions.  We played the game a couple of times, and that was all she needed.  It wasn't something she asked for or freely chose to do, it was something I thought would help her so it was something I chose for her.  I wouldn't have forced her to do it if she really didn't want to, but I did encourage her. 

Anyway, I can imagine doing something similar with handwriting.  But I'm not sure it's something more experienced radical unschoolers would do, so I'd be interested to hear their thoughts (as always).  


---In [email protected], <polykowholsteins@...> wrote :
Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 20, 2015, at 7:04 PM, bonniecrocker2003@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 






-

K Pennell

This reminds me of my son (age 12), who recently decided he "should" learn cursive. We sat down to play around with it a little, and he said he didn't want to learn cursive. He asked why he should. I explained it was up to him, but it was nice to be able to read cursive writing, since his grandparents send him cards in cursive. He said he could read it already, and sign the back  of checks with his name. He asked "why should I learn to write it?" and I talked about how I didn't think he "should" do it if he doesn't want to, but some people think it's good to learn because it's faster than print (though typing is probably faster than either for most people).

He hypothesized that cursive actually wasn't faster than printing at all, and wanted to time us both using both print and cursive. I expected cursive would be slower for him, but was very surprised that it was slower for me, too!

So he decided other than his name, he didn't feel he needed to learn cursive after all. It was cool that he tested it out for himself and had fun doing it.



 





-




lucy.web

My oldest daughter's messages to me looked just like this not so long ago.   She also has written some numbers backwards since she very first started writing numbers.  I have pointed out to her which ones are backwards but she doesn't seem to notice it for herself and often can't seem to tell the difference.   When she first started writing she wrote many things backwards, but otherwise perfectly: you could read them in a mirror.   This is despite my mother (retired teacher) trying to give her a couple of 'lessons' when I wasn't there.

My point is that my daughter (now 13.5) progressed from the sort of spelling in your son's note to more accurate spelling extremely quickly - probably a matter of days rather than weeks - once she started writing to friends online.  Especially when she wanted to comment on you tube videos, as she was particularly keen to make herself clear because it was for general public view.   She started to use her spellchecker, and wanted to get things correct so that other people could understand her.   Seems to me your son is very close to this stage seeing as he is trying to correct his spelling of "hungry" by himself.  Does he know how to use a spellchecker?

My daughter now does a lot of online writing, many hours a day.  She uploads her artwork to Deviant Art and she and friends on there write role plays together.  One person writes what a character does, and then my daughter writes the next line, and so on.  I think most of these friends are much older kids or young adults and are probably mostly schooled, and do not realise my daughter is unschooled.   She also made friends with an older (17) unschooler and they write role plays and stories over Skype.  They don't do voice or video talk, just work on the stories together.  This unschooler gave my daughter some practical tips, for example suggesting that she does not need to capitalize every other word, and helped her write in sentences etc.  My daughter's writing - on the computer - now looks like any schooled teenager's.   The content of what she writes is fabulous, and I feel qualified to say that seeing as I have facilitated creative writing in schools for years :)

In my family we very rarely write on paper, and various attempts to find more paper writing have felt a little contrived, and my kids have not really taken them up.   My daughter does lots of drawing, colouring, patterns, etc both on paper and on the computer, and I am fairly confident that she will learn to transfer her penmanship skills to writing words on paper as soon as she has a genuine desire to do so.

Has your daughter shown interest in learning some penmanship since her situation with the coach?   There are some websites where she could type in what she wants to 'write', and then print out the words she's typed with dotty outlines for her to trace over.  Maybe something like that might appeal to her?

Lucy

Sent from my iPad

On 21 Jul 2015, at 02:04, bonniecrocker2003@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

He just texted me from his room not too long ago:


He was telling me he would take out the dog (male) tomorrow. Here is what he wrote:


i will take hem out tomoro


Next he told me he was hungry and saw that it wasn't correct apparently but got it right on the 3rd try:


im hungre

hundry

hungry

I asked him what he wanted:

punut butter sandwitch

Sandra Dodd

Nice story from K Pennell:

-=-He hypothesized that cursive actually wasn't faster than printing at all, and wanted to time us both using both print and cursive. I expected cursive would be slower for him, but was very surprised that it was slower for me, too!

-=-So he decided other than his name, he didn't feel he needed to learn cursive after all. It was cool that he tested it out for himself and had fun doing it. -=-

That "it's faster" is another myth that carried down. It's an advantage with a dip pen, but it's been 100 years since people used dip pens.

John Holt said the same thing to students he was teaching, and when they raced to prove it, it was disproven. They didn't all beat him, but some did. It's cool that your son didn't believe the "common knowledge" and tested it out. :-)

Sandra

bonniecrocker2003@...

"Once she's past this, it might help to ask her how she thinks she would have learned to write in school. What would teachers have done that she couldn't do at home?"

That's a good point to wait which I knew but in the heat of the moment because I was upset, I told her that writing in school is boring and you have to practice, practice, practice whether you want to or not.  She was focused on the fact that she couldn't write and others could so she wasn't receptive to my "advice".  I knew better than this.

ALWAYS better to make comments or decisions when you are calmer.  BTW, she hasn't mentioned it any further.  I think she was embarrassed.  Now she is back in the safety of her home. 

"Does she like poetry or reading? One thing that authors do is keep a journal of their favorite bits and pieces. There's something about physically writing it out -- even more so than typing -- that helps make it a part of you."

We haven't done anything with poetry.  

One thing she told me was that when she attended the American Girl Doll socials, it was boring when the teacher read the chapter books to them. She said she can't picture what is happening and likes ones with "little doodle things" in it.  I don't think she is ready for chapter books nor likes having them read to her.  I tried Nancy Drew some time ago and she lost interest.

There is a series called Ellie McDoodle that she likes.  I got her some other diary type books (diary of a worm) and one with her name in it since the whole series had been checked out already when I was at the library. She just read me a couple of the books I picked up from the library. 




-

anna.black@...

A dip pen!  Of course!  That makes perfect sense.  It would be better to leave the pen on the page for longer without raising it if you were using a dip pen to give the ink time to be used up and not drip.  That reminds me of when I asked my dad - a left-hander who went to primary school in the 50s and used a dip pen - why he curls his arm around the page when he writes.  He said when he learned to write, he did that to make the letters slant to the right and to give the ink time to dry before his arm/hand travelled across the writing and smudged it.  It's not necessary now with most ball point pens, but he still writes that way.  

When I was doing Montessori teacher training, one of the justifications for using the cursive script was that it followed the natural movements of children's hands and was therefore easier for them.  I've heard this elsewhere also.  But it only took me a few months of observing actual children in a real classroom attempting to form letters to see that this was not true.  They naturally used short, separate lines to make the shape of the letters, so in fact, capitals are the easiest letters to form.  

A while ago Abby, my oldest, was interested in cursive writing and she did quite a bit of it for fun.  She likes to do autographs and signatures, so she experimented with signing her full name in cursive.  She might like to play with calligraphy in the same way one day, my husband did a lot of that for a while and he has a set of pens.  I love illuminated manuscripts too, and I remember being fascinated by samplers as a child.  

Handwriting is still very interesting in lots of ways, but it's not useful or a vital skill in the way it once was.