redheadmom11@...

When we started unschooling, my intentions were to keep it strictly academic because I thought the principles would be impossible for my family because we have 11 kids- 10 still living at home. After about 6 months of unschooling, however, I really opened up to the idea of principles instead of rules and read everything I could find on the subject. 


Sometime in January, I slowly started transitioning, beginning with saying "yes" more, then doing away with bed times, and letting go of food restrictions. These changes were easy to implement. Our nights are much more peaceful without the arguments over staying in bed. What was once "bedtime" now usually consists of playing games, the kids making paper sculptures, and then falling asleep in the living room while watching "Hercules- the Legendary Journey."


The food principles were also pretty easy since I grew up being allowed to eat whatever I wanted because I didn't like my mom's cooking. :) I've always been flexible in what my kids eat, although I did try to ration the snacks and milk for financial reasons. I've recently stopped rationing the snacks, although it's been very expensive because my kids can easily finish off several bags or boxes of snacks in just a few hours. Last week my grocery bill was $503 for a week's worth of groceries. The milk is also an issue because they can easily go through 2 gallons of milk per day.


Which leads me to my first actual question: Does anyone have advice on how to keep the food bill down? Twelve people being supported by a welder's income can make things pretty tight, so there's no way I can afford $500 grocery bills every week.


My next question has to do with house keeping. Eliminating chores is the most recent transition we've made, and I've got to admit, I'm EXHAUSTED. I understand that it's all a choice, but 12 people can make a bit of a mess. I actually do enjoy cleaning, but sometimes it seems neverending. This morning I woke up to a dining room filled with scraps of paper (not a problem), spilled drinks, melted freeze pops, and ramen all over the floor (all a problem, in my book). As I cleaned the dining room, the kids went out to the kitchen and spilled cereal everywhere.


This has been happening everyday. Right now I'm reading "How to Talk so Your Kids Will Listen...," so I decided to try problem solving with them. I explained that they're probably glad that they have more time to spend on doing what they like to do, and I like to see them happy. I then told them how much I miss doing things with them- painting murals, going to the park, going to the creek to find snakes, etc.- that we don't have much time to do anymore because I'm always so busy and- honestly, worn-out from- cleaning up spills and food dumped everywhere. I asked them for any suggestions they have so that I could spend less time on these things. I swore I heard birds chirping at the silence that followed. They had no idea what to say. I tried to start it off by suggesting that maybe each person could try to clean up just after themselves, like putting their dishes in the sink or cleaning up any food or drinks they may spill. I also suggested setting the oven timer for 15 minutes everyday so we can work together to do a quick clean-up before their dad comes home. Again, no feedback (other than my 10-yr.-old joking that I could just put them all up for adoption.)


I would be truly grateful for any advice anyone has- whether you've been through this or not.


Thanks so much.

Shelly

Sandra Dodd

-=- I've always been flexible in what my kids eat, although I did try to ration the snacks and milk for financial reasons. I've recently stopped rationing the snacks, although it's been very expensive because my kids can easily finish off several bags or boxes of snacks in just a few hours. -=-

"Recently" is the important word.
The desire/ability to "finish off several bags or boxes of snacks" is a condition created by the rationing.

Find less expensive snacks. Popcorn, maybe. Buy on sales days. Look for coupons. Make cookies, or Rice Krispies squares.

If you go back to limits, you won't save money or improve health. You'll create a reality in which food is valuable, and a chance to eat as much as one wants is a privilege that will be removed soon, so they'll eat more, faster. And perhaps sneak it. And maybe grow up to reward themselves with snacks.

http://sandradodd.com/t/economics
(It says it's about TV, but it's about limitations and economics.)

Sandra

redheadmom11@...

**(It says it's about TV, but it's about limitations and economics.)**

You know, it's funny, but I just read that last week and never even thought of applying it to this situation. The thought did cross my mind that that was the problem. Rice Crispy treats are a really good idea. I haven't made those in years, and my kids would love to help with them. Hopefully, it won't be too long for the "feeding frenzy" to slow down. :)


Alex & Brian Polikowsky


 

<<<<"Hopefully, it won't be too long for the "feeding frenzy" to slow down.">>>>>


I hope you were trying to be funny when you write that, but If you were I want to point out that it was not successful.
How would you think you would feel if your husband said something like that about you? Even jokingly!
Your kids are not sharks or animals.

The moment you don't see your kids as animals in a feeding frenzy when eating anything they want or enjoy, that is when you can start creating a peaceful environment where there is abundance and peace around any time of food. Where there is no stress around how much and what they eat.
Where your children can feel secure that their choices of what and how much they eat are going to be seriously taken in consideration and not something that may be taken away again.

Alex Polikowsky   













redheadmom11@...

* I hope you were trying to be funny when you write that, but If you were I want to point out that it was not successful.
How would you think you would feel if your husband said something like that about you? Even jokingly! *

I was obviously joking, and if my husband would have made a joke like that about me, I would have laughed because it was a joke. I make my kids monkey platters, which I found on Sandra's website, all the time, but my children don't take that to mean that I think they are monkeys. I was just making light of the situation.

Shelly

Tiffani

Hi Shelly,

I have a large family of 5 kids (not as large as yours). We live on one income. What are your kids ages? I found that it took some time to truly understand radical unschooling. As my youngest kids were growing up I understood the principles more a more because I saw my younger kids did not have some of the same hangups my older kids had. 

<<<<<The food principles were also pretty easy since I grew up being allowed to eat whatever I wanted because I didn't like my mom's cooking. :) I've always been flexible in what my kids eat, although I did try to ration the snacks and milk for financial reasons. I've recently stopped rationing the snacks, although it's been very expensive because my kids can easily finish off several bags or boxes of snacks in just a few hours. Last week my grocery bill was $503 for a week's worth of groceries. The milk is also an issue because they can easily go through 2 gallons of milk per day.>>>>>

Unschooling does not mean going bankrupt. There is no way I could maintain a $500 a week grocery bill for a long period of time. What I do is I buy what we need for meals. I ask for input on our menu, then I create a list. Then I leave the list out on the counter for the kids to add to. If I have extra or less money that week I will let the kids know. I also buy snacks for each kid. 3 of my kids do not snack a lot 2 of them do. What would happen is the 2 would eat all the snacks and there wouldn't be any for the other 3. I would set aside snacks for the 3 and add them back to the pile when I shopped again. (I have a snack tub in the cabinet that can be taken from at anytime.) That way they would have it if they wanted it. As the kids get older it is easier to allow for them to have their very own set of snacks. For my older teens I gave them a snack box for under their bed. I also do not make things equal. I think that is what makes it hard to have a large family. For example if 1 son needs new shoes I do not buy a new pair of shoes for everyone. Same goes for food. I pay close attention that everyone gets what they want and what I can afford. 2 of my kids love to bake. I buy sugar and flour in bulk and let them bake. That generates a lot of snacks for everyone to enjoy for minimal cost. 

<<<<<My next question has to do with house keeping. Eliminating chores is the most recent transition we've made, and I've got to admit, I'm EXHAUSTED.>>>>>

This one also took me sometime to get. First off lower your standards for a while. I refused to ask my kids for help for a long time. I did everything by myself. After a while I began to feel abused by my family. I really felt left out because there is a lot of work to do just to keep the family fed and enough clean plates to eat off of.  I pulled my oldest aside and talked with him about how I was feeling. He wanted our family to be radical unschoolers. He offered to help me out. I think the key is he wanted to help. We wanted to learn together. For a while it was he and I who took care of all the household needs. Then I began to ask the other kids for help. It was hard when they would so no. I would take a deep breath and do it myself, ask someone else or let it go. For what seemed like a REALLY LONG TIME my kids said no. During this time I kept telling myself my kids did not ask to be born. They and their upkeep are my responsibility. Now 99% of the time when I ask for help they help. A lot of the time they offer help. Also for me I accepted the help they were willing to give. For example in the past if I asked my kids to clean their room I expected it to be cleaned to my standards, which are quite high. When I would ask them to clean their room and all they did was take out dirty clothes, glasses and garbage I accepted that as clean. I also look at each child's personality. My daughter loves her stuff. Where I see clutter she sees beauty. I embrace that now. She has stuff all over her walls. When I sit in there I look around and see all her friends and memories and love. Another example when one of my sons decided to take over his laundry he asked for 2 baskets. He keeps clean clothes in one and dirty in the other. I have always been laundry folder but the laundry would get behind a lot. His clothes are cleaned weekly by him and he always knows where his stuff is. I have accepted that he will not be hanging or folding his clothes and that is OK. Now I have 3 kids doing their own laundry so I rarely get behind on that chore anymore. 

The transition to radical homeschooling was bumpy for us and it was very much well worth it. I wish I had found it when my oldest was a baby. Keep trying it is worth the effort.

Tiffani

redheadmom11@...

Thank you so much, Tiffani, for so many great ideas. My kids who still live at home are 16, 15, 13, 10, 9, 7, 6, 5, 4, and 2. I happened upon your reply at the perfect time because I had just gotten done scrubbing dried ramen off of the bench- again- and I was pretty grouchy. 

I love the idea of the snack boxes for the older kids. I'm definitely going to try that. My ridiculously high grocery bill last week was my own fault for failing to think things through. While I do always have a list, I chose to take 5 of my kids along with me to the store (I usually only bring 2 or 3), and I pretty much let them get anything they asked for. You live and you learn, right?

I love how your oldest willingly helps you. I haven't asked my older kids for help much because they really don't make much of a mess, and I would feel bad for having them clean something they didn't do. It's my younger kids (10 and under) who create the bulk of the mess, so right now I'm still at the point of figuring out how to make things work. My standards have never been ultra high because with 10 kids it would be impossible to have a Better Homes and Garden-style house. Unfortunately, I've been having trouble even keeping the house up to those standards, which basically consist of enough clean dishes for the next couple of hours, enough clean clothes for at least that day (it's harder than you may think), and no garbage or food thrown around. The one thing I did ask my 10, 9, and 7 yr. olds is if they could try to have a path cleared through their room so that their dad doesn't kill himself in the morning trying to walk through to get to the upstairs bathroom. They've been pretty good about that. 

Again, thank you so much. I'll definitely be referring back to your reply continually because there's so much great advice packed in there!

Sandra Dodd

Go easy, when you ask for advice.
Sometimes (very often) the answers people get are to the questions they SHOULD have asked. Or the responses are to potential problems the original poster hadn't considered.

Even if the suggestion doesn't apply to the original poster, it might be useful for other readers. So don't bat ideas away.

-=-I was obviously joking, and if my husband would have made a joke like that about me, I would have laughed because it was a joke. I make my kids monkey platters, which I found on Sandra's website, all the time, but my children don't take that to mean that I think they are monkeys. I was just making light of the situation.-=-

#1, boiled down, that says "don't criticize me."
#2, LOTS of jokes are mean, and the "i'm just joking" defense is the rallying cry of bullies. I'm not saying this was an instance of bullying, but that bullies use that defense.
#3, the monkey platter has a history, from us seeing monkeys at the zoo being given a platter of cut-up fruit; don't twist that to defend yourself

Alex Polikowsky (anyone who gets a response from Alex should sit up and pay attention, because she knows what she's talking about) responded to this:

> <<<<"Hopefully, it won't be too long for the "feeding frenzy" to slow down.">>>>>

Alex wrote this, which is worth repeating:
______________

I hope you were trying to be funny when you write that, but If you were I want to point out that it was not successful.
How would you think you would feel if your husband said something like that about you? Even jokingly!
Your kids are not sharks or animals.

The moment you don't see your kids as animals in a feeding frenzy when eating anything they want or enjoy, that is when you can start creating a peaceful environment where there is abundance and peace around any time of food. Where there is no stress around how much and what they eat.
Where your children can feel secure that their choices of what and how much they eat are going to be seriously taken in consideration and not something that may be taken away again.
________________

A "feeding frenzy" is caused by deprivation, followed by sudden opportunity.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

I want to expand on something Alex Polikowsky wrote:

-=-I hope you were trying to be funny when you write that, but If you were I want to point out that it was not successful.
How would you think you would feel if your husband said something like that about you? Even jokingly!-=-

Part of creating a more peaceful environment is being aware of the amount of "just joking" that is accepted in mainstream interactions.

-=-Your kids are not sharks or animals.-=-

Children will be respectful and respectable when they have been respected.

-=-The moment you don't see your kids as animals in a feeding frenzy when eating anything they want or enjoy, that is when you can start creating a peaceful environment where there is abundance and peace around any time of food. Where there is no stress around how much and what they eat.-=-

Yes. Children don't really have a choice if when they choose the parents indicate "WRONG" like the gong show (no matter how subtly the disapproval is, the kids will know).

-=-Where your children can feel secure that their choices of what and how much they eat are going to be seriously taken in consideration and not something that may be taken away again.-=-

The calm needs to live deep in the parents. It might take a while, but belittling the children during the process is the opposite of helpful.
When parents are unaware that they're belittling children, it will be more difficult for unschooling to thrive.

http://sandradodd.com/respect might help.
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting will help if you read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch.

Sandra

redheadmom11@...

***The calm needs to live deep in the parents. It might take a while, but belittling the children during the process is the opposite of helpful.
When parents are unaware that they're belittling children, it will be more difficult for unschooling to thrive.***

You are right that the calm needs to begin with me. That's something I've been working on because I've always been a bit high strung. (Could you tell?)

I think the reason that I was so quick to defend myself was because I've never used that term before. I was just trying to find the right words to convey how crazy it's been here food-wise. You've definitely pointed out that I need to be more mindful of the things I say. I'm not aware of anything I say to the kids that may belittle them, but I will definitely pay attention more to make sure there's nothing subliminal in what I say, as well.

So, a big, fat apology to Alex. I was just really hurt that someone would think that I would intentionally hurt my kids' feelings. They're everything to me.

tallulahjoy@...

This thread brings up a question that keeps coming back for me in this group...

Each of us sees and experiences the world through the lens of our individual sum of experiences, our inherent personalities and natural traits, and our own personal growth.   Respect vs disrespect doesn't always mean the same thing to all people.  

As an example, "feeding frenzy" would not be a derogatory term in our house.   It would be seen as a phrase to describe a behavior, neither good nor bad...just a description that would indicate eating anything we could get our hands on and as fast as possible.   There would be no shame involved.   Like Shelly, we also have a large family (7 "children" - most now grown, some married, nearly a half-dozen young grandchildren and two school-age children still at home).  A feeding frenzy could easily describe our crew if ravenously hungry.  I've checked with my children and they were shocked that anyone would feel that was derogatory.   However, the term "monkey platter" was soundly rejected by all of my children as mildly shaming or derogatory.   Their reasoning is that they are not monkeys.   These opinions are a reflection only of my family, but it does illustrate that we are all different in our shared humanity.

My question is:  Why is it okay to have strong right vs. wrong opinions of the words used by parents who write to this forum when we wouldn't dream of expecting our children's thought processes to mirror our own?   This is asked respectfully and with a desire to hear and learn.   

Thank you for this forum and the many links which are shared.  The advice to "read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch" is excellent.


Sandra Dodd

-=-You've definitely pointed out that I need to be more mindful of the things I say. I'm not aware of anything I say to the kids that may belittle them, but I will definitely pay attention more to make sure there's nothing subliminal in what I say, as well.-=-

Very often when someone uses another person's phrase, she's using the other person's emotional charge to go with it.
If it's NOT the case, it's still worth considering using one's own carefully chosen words instead of "stock phrases" (pulled whole from one's subconscious/history).

http://sandradodd.com/phrases

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Each of us sees and experiences the world through the lens of our individual sum of experiences, our inherent personalities and natural traits, and our own personal growth. Respect vs disrespect doesn't always mean the same thing to all people. -=-

Just because there's more than one truth doesn't mean there's no such thing as bullshit.

If someone seems disrespectful and needs to be explained or justified, it's VERY MUCH worth considering making a choice the next time that is clearly, fully, cleanly respectful and friendly, supportive, kind.

http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully

-=-As an example, "feeding frenzy" would not be a derogatory term in our house. -=-

Language can only be stretched so far. When a phrase has a negative connotation, that taint can't be washed off it completely. Defending a phrase as though it would not and could not ever be derogatory in a particular house is false. It isn't something one person has the power to guarantee.

Over the past 25 years I've been reading about and discussing unschooling I've seen lots of negativity defended. For good reasons, I'm uninterested in the idea of providing and maintaining a forum for people to defend it here.

-=- A feeding frenzy could easily describe our crew if ravenously hungry-=-

Why not say they're eating enthusiastically? They're happily devouring all the food you put out for them? Maybe that the same old food tasted great because they were hungry?

There are thousands of things one could say without using "feeding frenzy." People do not "feed." Fish do. Pigs do. Carrion birds feed on dead animals.
People eat. They dine. They lunch, they brunch, but they don't feed. Sharks do, though. In a frenzy, when there's blood, people say/believe.

Words are wonderful, and they mean what they mean, rather than what someone pretends to hope they mean.

-=-My question is: Why is it okay to have strong right vs. wrong opinions of the words used by parents who write to this forum...-=-

http://sandradodd.com/clarity

Because without being clear and precise and thoughtful and aware, crap can pass for thought. Recitation, rote, half-remembered misunderstood platitudes can take up space that would be better filled with new understandings of what helps unschooling work well, and what can harm or prevent progress.

-=-...when we wouldn't dream of expecting our children's thought processes to mirror our own? This is asked respectfully and with a desire to hear and learn. -=-

I'm not asking people's thought processes to mirror my own. I AM asking people to make mindful choices about what they say, and think, and do.

But I'm not anyone's mom here. The only butts I ever signed on to wipe were my children's. They are a limited set of three humans, whose lives have been shared generously by them, to help other kids' lives be better. There are dozens (hundreds over the years) of families whose lives have been laid out for other unschoolers to see. Not everyone can, should, will or needs to do that, but those who are able and willing to share make a profound difference for every family affected by ANY change in either parent who meets them, reads about them, hears them speak. None of them want to parent other parents. They want to help other intelligent adults become kinder and more open parents to their own children—parents who don't belittle their children with ill-chosen (or unchosen) words.

Any time you don't think of two things and choose the better one, you have acted thoughtlessly.
Each time you speak, or write, without thinking what the best words and phrases will be for the situation (speaking to children, writing here, thanking a partner) you've spoken thoughtlessly.

People will not inspect anyone's home. There's no report to file, no test to take. This will be between you and your families.
But advice given here, or questions or comments, are all put on the table under the bright light of unschooling. That's the purpose of the discussion and has been for thirteen and a half years, 75000 (seventy-five thousand) posts ago. I'm not planning to change directions now.

Anyone with questions about this discussion can read more here:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

I meant to leave a link, for people new to the discussion, or for older members who might want a review.
Negativity is contagious and poison.

-=-Over the past 25 years I've been reading about and discussing unschooling I've seen lots of negativity defended. For good reasons, I'm uninterested in the idea of providing and maintaining a forum for people to defend it here.-=- (I wrote, in an earlier post, and meant to include this:)

http://sandradodd.com/negativity

Sandra

Karen James

<<I then told them how much I miss doing things with them- painting murals, going to the park, going to the creek to find snakes, etc.- that we don't have much time to do anymore because I'm always so busy and- honestly, worn-out from- cleaning up spills and food dumped everywhere. I asked them for any suggestions they have so that I could spend less time on these things. I swore I heard birds chirping at the silence that followed. They had no idea what to say.>>

From what you've written here, it sounds like you put them on a bit of a guilt trip, and then expected them to come up with the solution to your problem.  If a friend spoke to me the way you've written, I'd probably be at a loss for words too.  Similar to the "feeding frenzy" comment that Alex and Sandra talked about, your words and your thoughts here are belittling of your children.  Recognizing this, and being able to shift your thinking in a more positive direction, will make coming up with honest solutions that work for all of you easier.

Would one of the older children be open to being paid to help you with a of couple tasks?
Could you do a sweep of the eating area in the morning or evening when things are quieter?
Could you afford a helper from outside the home?
Can you think of snacks to offer that are a little less messy?
Would a painter's drop cloth under the eating area work?  Could you shake it outside at the end of the day?
Similarly, maybe having a few inexpensive table cloths that can be shaken out, then thrown in the washer every other day might make cleaning up simpler?

<<spilled drinks, melted freeze pops, and ramen all over the floor>>

In my own house, if this happened I would ask the kids (who were old enough to understand) to eat in one designated area--say the kitchen.  If there was a spill, I'd help them clean it up--show them where the towels were, wet a towel with them, wipe the mess, throw anything in the garbage that needed to be thrown out.  I would do this again and again, until they naturally learned to do it for themselves.  (And they will.)  I would help them learn to live respectably with others, by setting a good example and by helping them understand what is expected.  Unschooling isn't a free for all.  It's a partnership.  To me, it means working with your children to help them learn what they need to learn to be the kind of people others will want to be around, and work with, and be in relationships with.    

What happened before you lifted limits?  Were there spills before unschooling?  What did you do about them?  What has changed?  Why has it gotten so challenging that you feel that there is no longer any time to do all those fun things you first listed above?  

Karen



On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I meant to leave a link, for people new to the discussion, or for older members who might want a review.
Negativity is contagious and poison.

-=-Over the past 25 years I've been reading about and discussing unschooling I've seen lots of negativity defended. For good reasons, I'm uninterested in the idea of providing and maintaining a forum for people to defend it here.-=- (I wrote, in an earlier post, and meant to include this:)

http://sandradodd.com/negativity

Sandra


Alex & Brian Polikowsky

Don't need to apologize to me.
It is about being mindful because the words you chose to use reflect your thinking, or NOT thinking  :)

And the words you unthinkingly use do color how you see your children and perceive the situation. I learned that from wise women here.

I have a wonderful picture of me and my siblings covered with splatters and smudges of different color paint. We had just come back from art class at an awesome art studio.

Instead of my mom and dad being mad that we were covered with paint , they thought we looked amazing and happy and my dad took some wonderful pictures of us smiling in his studio( he was a professional photographer).
Always wear clothes that you are okay with if they get paint on :)

My husband bought a cake for my daughter and this is what happened when I looked away to wash dishes. (Link below)

Next time she wanted to do it again I found something cheaper and easier to clean  like shaving cream in the tub. Cakes were for us to eat I told her. She was happy to have something to play that felt good to squish between fingers and toes!

It is not that we let her keep doing that to all our cakes ;)  
Finding ways to provide the same  tactile experience she was seeking in a way that I could clean up easier was a win win situation.
Big old sheets are awesome. Playing in the tub or a wading pool great!
( tip- do not let the cake dry as it becomes cement!)

Being creative and finding solutions and seeing your children as explorers and enjoying their joy priceless!


Alex



Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 4, 2015, at 11:17 AM, redheadmom11@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

***The calm needs to live deep in the parents. It might take a while, but belittling the children during the process is the opposite of helpful.
When parents are unaware that they're belittling children, it will be more difficult for unschooling to thrive.***


You are right that the calm needs to begin with me. That's something I've been working on because I've always been a bit high strung. (Could you tell?)

I think the reason that I was so quick to defend myself was because I've never used that term before. I was just trying to find the right words to convey how crazy it's been here food-wise. You've definitely pointed out that I need to be more mindful of the things I say. I'm not aware of anything I say to the kids that may belittle them, but I will definitely pay attention more to make sure there's nothing subliminal in what I say, as well.

So, a big, fat apology to Alex. I was just really hurt that someone would think that I would intentionally hurt my kids' feelings. They're everything to me.

Alex & Brian Polikowsky

If I was to name the biggest most important things I have learned discussing unschooling in groups like this one I would put at the top :

-Being thoughtful and mindful- stopping to think instead or reacting.
It all started by being thoughtful and and mindful of the words I was choosing to write here. That immediately not only spilled out to my whole life but I had to really stop and think.

I thought I was a mindful person but I was not. I thought I was clear and having gone to law school I did learn a lot about how words can make a huge difference.

But it was here, when Sandra and others picked apart what I was writing , that I learned.

It has changed my life in so many ways that and it has led me to being more clear, honest, mindful, thoughtful, positive, respectful  and peaceful.

I am not perfect but I have come a long way. 
My marriage had improved tremendously because of it too! My husband is a lot happier and I don't rag on him like I used too.

When I stopped to think which words to use I also changed how I saw things and became so much more thoughtful.

Alex Polikowsky 



Sent from my iPhone
  • Re             •
•
•
.

Alex & Brian Polikowsky

Here is a link that has one of those pictures I mentioned! The picture is in the bottom and it is now a picture I took of a slide projection so not good quality.


Alex P


Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 5, 2015, at 8:46 AM, Alex & Brian Polikowsky polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

Don't need to apologize to me.
It is about being mindful because the words you chose to use reflect your thinking, or NOT thinking  :)

And the words you unthinkingly use do color how you see your children and perceive the situation. I learned that from wise women here.

I have a wonderful picture of me and my siblings covered with splatters and smudges of different color paint. We had just come back from art class at an awesome art studio.

Instead of my mom and dad being mad that we were covered with paint , they thought we looked amazing and happy and my dad took some wonderful pictures of us smiling in his studio( he was a professional photographer).
Always wear clothes that you are okay with if they get paint on :)

My husband bought a cake for my daughter and this is what happened when I looked away to wash dishes. (Link below)

Next time she wanted to do it again I found something cheaper and easier to clean  like shaving cream in the tub. Cakes were for us to eat I told her. She was happy to have something to play that felt good to squish between fingers and toes!

It is not that we let her keep doing that to all our cakes ;)  
Finding ways to provide the same  tactile experience she was seeking in a way that I could clean up easier was a win win situation.
Big old sheets are awesome. Playing in the tub or a wading pool great!
( tip- do not let the cake dry as it becomes cement!)

Being creative and finding solutions and seeing your children as explorers and enjoying their joy priceless!


Alex



Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 4, 2015, at 11:17 AM, redheadmom11@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

***The calm needs to live deep in the parents. It might take a while, but belittling the children during the process is the opposite of helpful.
When parents are unaware that they're belittling children, it will be more difficult for unschooling to thrive.***


You are right that the calm needs to begin with me. That's something I've been working on because I've always been a bit high strung. (Could you tell?)

I think the reason that I was so quick to defend myself was because I've never used that term before. I was just trying to find the right words to convey how crazy it's been here food-wise. You've definitely pointed out that I need to be more mindful of the things I say. I'm not aware of anything I say to the kids that may belittle them, but I will definitely pay attention more to make sure there's nothing subliminal in what I say, as well.

So, a big, fat apology to Alex. I was just really hurt that someone would think that I would intentionally hurt my kids' feelings. They're everything to me.

Sandra Dodd

Thank you, Alex. I added what you wrote here: http://sandradodd.com/mindfulofwords

I edited a bit. Others might not realize it, but Alex isn't a native English speaker. Having lived in the U.S. for a long time, she's full of idioms but still makes the odd error here and there. :-) But I LOVE that she keeps up with the discussions and contributes, because she's thoughtful and alert.

-=-I thought I was clear and having gone to law school I did learn a lot about how words can make a huge difference.-=-

I think the precision of legalese, of law-writing and interpretation, and of contract law, is about what else something might mean—whether it's ambiguous or not.
The clarity of writing about belief and emotions is different. Our subconsciousness can express itself without our conscious mind hearing or seeing it. Our super-ego can insert messages from long-dead relatives (maybe even a couple of generations back if they were quoted by our parents, grandparents, aunts or uncles).

We all know from the scripted conversations around us that it's possible to "communicate" without really thinking or listening (to ourselves or the other person).
Hi! What's your name? What school do you go to? Do you like your teacher? What's your favorite subject?
Hey, how's it going? How's your mom? It's been so hot lately, huh? Did you see the game?

Sandra

redheadmom11@...

***From what you've written here, it sounds like you put them on a bit of a guilt trip, and then expected them to come up with the solution to your problem.  If a friend spoke to me the way you've written, I'd probably be at a loss for words too.***

I was actually reading "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen & Listen so Kids Will Talk." It's from a section on problem solving. It specifically says this:

"Step I. Talk about the child's feelings and needs.
 Step II. Talk about your feelings and needs.
 Step III. Brainstorm together to find a mutually agreeable solution.
 Step IV. Write down all ideas-without evaluating.
 Step V. Decide which suggestions you like, which you don't like, and which you plan to follow through      
             on."

That's where I got the idea from. I've been trying so hard to do the *right* thing, but it seems like I keep getting it *wrong*. I've spent quite a bit of time reading up on gentle parenting and unschooling. I finished Joyce Fetteroll's site, am about halfway through Sandra's site (alphabetically along with most of the links at the bottom), and have purchased and read every unschooling book I could get my hands on. My oldest is almost 22, so I've been parenting traditionally for a long time. It's going to take a little while for me to transition, but the important thing is that I really want this for my children and am determined to make it work.

***What happened before you lifted limits?  Were there spills before unschooling?  What did you do about them?  What has changed?  Why has it gotten so challenging that you feel that there is no longer any time to do all those fun things you first listed above?***

Yes, there were spills, but the kids had to clean their own messes (unless they were too little). And it has gotten challenging because it really is a lot of work for one person. Before we started unschooling principles, I would straighten up in the morning and do some laundry, the kids and I would do whatever we had planned (or not planned) for the day, I would make lunch at 12 and tell them what we were having. If they didn't like it, they were free to have something else, but if I needed to make it, they would have to let me know while I was already in the kitchen. Then at 1 we would all work together at whatever household tasks were ours and clean up so that my husband would come home to a half-decent house. This usually took around 15 minutes- 30 minutes at the most.

Now, it's a bit different. Since we don't have our 1:00 cleanup time, I try to keep the house up throughout the day by myself. It's a big difference going from around 9 people working together to 1. Not having a set lunchtime also really throws things off. Here's an example of what happens here now:

Ireland: Mommy, can you make me ramen?
Me: Yes. (Calls into the living room) Does anyone else want ramen before I start doing the dishes? (No answer)
(5 minutes after starting dishes)
Summer: Can I have ramen?
Me: Okay. Didn't you hear me ask before?
Summer: Yes, but I didn't want it then.
Me: (calls into the living room) I'm making Summer ramen. Does anyone else want anything? (No answer)
(Start dishes again)
(3 minutes later)
Luke: Can I have chocolate milk?
Me: Yes.
(Getting Luke chocolate milk)
London: Mom, Kenzie just took her diaper off and got poop all over the floor. Can I have some cereal?

This sort of thing goes on throughout the day. I know my kids will help more as time goes on. It's just getting there that's a struggle for me right now.


Shelly
 

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was actually reading "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen & Listen so Kids Will Talk." It's from a section on problem solving. It specifically says ...-=-

So you want rules? A script? Then that's a good book for you.
If it doesn't match what people are recommending here, it's because I've recommended for twenty years for people to make a decision each time they speak or act, based on principles, rather than on rules.

http://sandradodd.com/rules

-=- I've been trying so hard to do the *right* thing, but it seems like I keep getting it *wrong*.-=-

Then stop looking for "right," and look for "better."
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully

-=- I finished Joyce Fetteroll's site, am about halfway through Sandra's site (alphabetically along with most of the links at the bottom), and have purchased and read every unschooling book I could get my hands on. -=-

Joyce's site can be finished.
Mine can't be.

I'm glad you explained how you've measured, though. (alphabetically)
Alphabetically would refer to the list on the lefthand at http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
I made that list a long time ago, and it's heavier on the A-L part than the M-Z part. Even then, it's fewer than 200 pages. The site has over 1500 pages.

Don't look to "finish" or to read every book. Look to use a few ideas to make your life better, and then maybe add another idea or two at a time.
And even if you DO finish Joyce's site (for example) or read a certain book... it will look entirely different after a year of unschooling, and different again after two or three years.

Sandra

Clare Kirkpatrick

"I've been trying so hard to do the *right* thing, but it seems like I keep getting it *wrong*."

This means that you're trying to find rules to live by and hoping that sticking to them will make you an unschooling parent and solve all your problems. But unschooling doesn't work that way. Stop reading for a bit and try being more present in each moment. Try looking at every moment and considering which response will be the better one to make. Not the best one, not the right one, but the better one. 

I'm noticing I'm feeling tempted to give you ideas to manage a situation like you cited, but I feel as though you may take it word-for-word. 

If you're feeling like you're put upon and stuck in what is feeling like an endless loop of housework, sometimes the better option would be to say 'not now, sorry' with love than to do the thing feeling pissed off and miserable. In the meantime, rather than reading everything you can get your hands on, read the most relevant things to what you're stuck on right now - what is getting in the way of you making better unschooling choices. For instance, in this situation, I'd suggest working through Sandra's page on 'service'...slowly. As you said, changes in thinking patterns takes time. 

http://sandradodd.com/service

Incidentally, now that I do stuff for my kids with joy and a genuine desire to help them carry on with their busyness, and now that I'm lovingly clear and honest when I can't (like when clearing up baby poo is the current priority) or don't want to just yet (like if I just want to finish my complicated row of knitting first) (but when I keep those times to a minimum), my children actually help out a lot. If I can't help, I offer to tell them how they can do it themselves so they can get it sooner than they would if they waited, or I ask a nearby sibling if they can help (of course it's cool if they say no -on the whole they say yes, I find). So I don't really recognise this picture of a family where mum does absolutely everything alone. 

But it takes time and trust-building and not doing things for your kids with resentment and an authentic desire to do things for your children to help them do more of what is joyful (ie. What they're learning from). And it takes letting go of the idea of a co-operative family where children help out a lot being your goal. Your goals should be your children having enough time to do the things they love and changing your own thinking so that helping them get that is a joyful thing for you as their mum. These are principles which you can use in each moment to help you make a better unschooling response. 


Sent from Samsung Mobile

redheadmom11@...

***So you want rules? A script? Then that's a good book for you***

That book was recommended on an unschooling site (I don't remember which one), which is why I was reading it.

***Then stop looking for "right," and look for "better."***

I love that. Another quote to print out as a reminder. Thank you.

***I made that list a long time ago, and it's heavier on the A-L part than the M-Z part. Even then, it's fewer than 200 pages. The site has over 1500 pages.***

How would I access the pages which are not on the list? I have also been reading the links which are on the listed pages. Thanks again. 

Shelly
 

semajrak@...

<<I was actually reading "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen & Listen so Kids Will Talk." It's from a section on problem solving.>>

I remember reading that book when Ethan was around 3 or 4 and I found a lot of the information within interesting and useful, especially considering it was an approach to parenting that was very different from the way I was raised.  But, I found when I put the suggestions into practice, I talked way too much for Ethan.  Actually, I talked too much for myself.  I irritated myself.  :-)  Also, it felt a bit scripted to me, and I think that scripting weirded Ethan out.  I wasn't being myself.  

So instead of doing all that talking, I started to think to myself about what I'd read and what my options were, and what little changes I could make.  I paid closer attention to Ethan, listening to what he was telling me he needed.  After I tried little things, I noticed whether or not I was successful.  If I was successful, I would try that again next time.  If I wasn't successful I'd try something else next time.  I read here and there for ideas, but I didn't take anything I read as truth.  I found my truth in how well Ethan and I worked as a team together.  I only have one child, so my home dynamic is very different from yours, but the process of reading and considering what works for your family might be similar, regardless of what you read and where you read it.

Sandra says it much better and more succinctly:

"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."

http://sandradodd.com/readalittle

<<I've been trying so hard to do the *right* thing, but it seems like I keep getting it *wrong*.>> 

Let your mistakes inform your future choices.  There is no shame in making mistakes.  It is unfortunate when we let our mistakes keep us from continuing to move toward our goals.  Don't be so focused on your errors that you cloud the places you are successful.  Both our successes and our goof-ups will help us get to where we hope to go. Thinking clearly is so important.  Reading and interacting here has helped me think much more clearly.  

http://sandradodd.com/betterchoice

<<Before we started unschooling principles, I would straighten up in the morning and do some laundry, the kids and I would do whatever we had planned (or not planned) for the day, I would make lunch at 12 and tell them what we were having. If they didn't like it, they were free to have something else, but if I needed to make it, they would have to let me know while I was already in the kitchen. Then at 1 we would all work together at whatever household tasks were ours and clean up so that my husband would come home to a half-decent house. This usually took around 15 minutes- 30 minutes at the most.

Now, it's a bit different. Since we don't have our 1:00 cleanup time, I try to keep the house up throughout the day by myself. It's a big difference going from around 9 people working together to 1. Not having a set lunchtime also really throws things off.>>

This might be an example of moving too far too fast.  Did the lunchtime and cleanup time change all of a sudden?  That could be overwhelming and discombobulating for everyone (including yourself). 

http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange

Little by little, say yes more, paying attention to your and your children's needs within the context of real limits.  

http://sandradodd.com/joyce/yes   

<<I know my kids will help more as time goes on. It's just getting there that's a struggle for me right now.>>

A few years ago Sandra wrote something like "stop struggling" to one something I had written.  I forget now what I was writing about.  It had never occurred to me that I could just stop struggling.  I tried.  I realized then that I was actually fabricating my own struggles.  I could choose to stop doing that by not focusing so much on all that was going wrong, and look more toward the changes I hoped to make happen in my life and the things that were going well.  

That simple shift took me out of my struggles, into a nice steady walk where my eyes were on the horizon of the place I wanted to get to.  That didn't mean I never tripped and fell.  I sure did (and do!).  But I learned to brush myself off and get back on track faster and easier when I didn't feel the need to thrash around in my imagined net of struggles.   And, most importantly, I became more clear about which direction I wanted to go.

Karen

Sandra Dodd

Karen's whole post was good, but this is a biggie:

[original poster] -=-<<I know my kids will help more as time goes on. It's just getting there that's a struggle for me right now.>>-=-

[Karen]-=-A few years ago Sandra wrote something like "stop struggling" to one something I had written. ... It had never occurred to me that I could just stop struggling. I tried. I realized then that I was actually fabricating my own struggles. -=-

http://sandradodd.com/battle
Don't struggle. Relax.
Don't battle. Find peace.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-
***So you want rules? A script? Then that's a good book for you***

-=-That book was recommended on an unschooling site (I don't remember which one), which is why I was reading it.-=-

Just because someone suggests a certain book might be helpful, in response to a particular question, does NOT mean that ANYONE said "THIS BOOK IS THE BIBLE, and if you follow it you will not need any other books—just do what it says without thinking, and you will have eternal life."

Seriously. Being defensive and blaming other people because things aren't going better might be some people's biggest problem.

TONS of good advice is being provided. Don't cling to "yeah but..." or "I thought..." Do better NOW, right now, in this moment, before the next post.

Every single post should be helpful to lots of readers.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-
***I made that list a long time ago, and it's heavier on the A-L part than the M-Z part. Even then, it's fewer than 200 pages. The site has over 1500 pages.***

How would I access the pages which are not on the list? I have also been reading the links which are on the listed pages. Thanks again. -=-

This misses my point by a mile and a half.

WHY would you access pages that you don't need?
My point was that you should not bring your resume, your list of imagined accomplishments, and try to get us to say that you have done everything you possibly could, so why isn't it working? A list of readings seems to be schoolish, university extra-credit/grade-challenge stuff. "I read all this." I "did all this work."

When people claim to have read my whole site, it seems usually they want to shush me. Or they want to suggest that I should stop sending them links, because they've already read it (while indicating by their questions that they don't have any idea what was intended by the links given to them fifteen minutes earlier). Or maybe they mean to say sometimes that they've done every POSSIBLE thing to make unschooling work, and it's still not working.

This might come as a shock to some, but I don't care if unschooling works at anyone's house or not. I don't make a percentage or get a bonus check for someone else unschooling wonderfully. I won't get fired if fifty families ENTIRELY misinterpret everything on my website and their kids end up in foster homes. The model for the way people "get credit" or "get blame" MUST BE SET ASIDE completely, for unschooling to work.

But reading isn't doing.
Watching ten videos on how to tile a shower isn't better than watching one and then tiling the shower.

I am not selling unschooling. I cannot go to anyone's home and install an unschooling system with a fifteen year guarantee.

What I am doing, and what I can do is to provide a vast collection of examples, ideas, questions-and-answers, analyses, that people can access when they need them. I can (and do) advise on how to use those resources. I can (and do) remind people (daily, with Just Add Light and Stir) of ways to be more joyful and peaceful and curious.

And people can (and do) ignore all those things.
But people don't have to.

No one needs to read my entire site. There are topics that will never apply to all families. And if someone DID read my whole site, but she ignored her children for that many hours, it would be harmful, and not virtuous. I'm not WANTING anyone to find all the pages on my site. I'm wanting them to stop trying. And VERY much I want them to stop claiming. Because the claim is evidence of a lack of deschooling. It's argumentative. It's defensive. It's not about how children learn.

Do good things for good reasons.
Expect to need to change your thoughts and responses.
Learn to change your thoughts and responses. That will not come from reading, but from making choices in good ways for good reasons.

Sandra

kirkpatrick clare

"How would I access the pages which are not on the list? "

When you are coming up against a sticking point, you search for info about it. You ask on here or on the FB group. More experienced unschoolers and those familiar with Sandra's site point you to useful things. The one thing that doesn't help unschooling is reading indiscriminately about it. Start with the starting points - the 'how to get started' pages on Sandra's site; Pam Larrichia's introductory email series. And then do the whole read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch thing...over and over. When you get back to the 'read a little' bit, make it discriminatory - read stuff that is relevant when it's relevant.

On 6 June 2015 at 19:39, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-
***I made that list a long time ago, and it's heavier on the A-L part than the M-Z part. Even then, it's fewer than 200 pages. The site has over 1500 pages.***

 How would I access the pages which are not on the list? I have also been reading the links which are on the listed pages. Thanks again. -=-

This misses my point by a mile and a half.

WHY would you access pages that you don't need?
My point was that you should not bring your resume, your list of imagined accomplishments, and try to get us to say that you have done everything you possibly could, so why isn't it working? A list of readings seems to be schoolish, university extra-credit/grade-challenge stuff. "I read all this." I "did all this work."

When people claim to have read my whole site, it seems usually they want to shush me. Or they want to suggest that I should stop sending them links, because they've already read it (while indicating by their questions that they don't have any idea what was intended by the links given to them fifteen minutes earlier). Or maybe they mean to say sometimes that they've done every POSSIBLE thing to make unschooling work, and it's still not working.

This might come as a shock to some, but I don't care if unschooling works at anyone's house or not. I don't make a percentage or get a bonus check for someone else unschooling wonderfully. I won't get fired if fifty families ENTIRELY misinterpret everything on my website and their kids end up in foster homes. The model for the way people "get credit" or "get blame" MUST BE SET ASIDE completely, for unschooling to work.

But reading isn't doing.
Watching ten videos on how to tile a shower isn't better than watching one and then tiling the shower.

I am not selling unschooling. I cannot go to anyone's home and install an unschooling system with a fifteen year guarantee.

What I am doing, and what I can do is to provide a vast collection of examples, ideas, questions-and-answers, analyses, that people can access when they need them. I can (and do) advise on how to use those resources. I can (and do) remind people (daily, with Just Add Light and Stir) of ways to be more joyful and peaceful and curious.

And people can (and do) ignore all those things.
But people don't have to.

No one needs to read my entire site. There are topics that will never apply to all families. And if someone DID read my whole site, but she ignored her children for that many hours, it would be harmful, and not virtuous. I'm not WANTING anyone to find all the pages on my site. I'm wanting them to stop trying. And VERY much I want them to stop claiming. Because the claim is evidence of a lack of deschooling. It's argumentative. It's defensive. It's not about how children learn.

Do good things for good reasons.
Expect to need to change your thoughts and responses.
Learn to change your thoughts and responses. That will not come from reading, but from making choices in good ways for good reasons.

Sandra


Sarah Thompson

Re: feeding frenzy

Feeding frenzies are normal for some animals, and not for others. What's important to my mind is what it means in your mind when you use the phrase. Sandra and Alex are pointing out that it has a connotation of scarcity and then over-abundance. If we go out for too long without snacks, we definitely have feeding frenzies when we get back but I don't view them as something that I hope will end soon. I view them as a particular type of eating and hope I have enough food!

So to me, the giveaway is in wanting it to end. Something seems out of balance-the kids aren't doing what *you want* them to do. *That's* the place to look for the disconnect. How do *you* stop wanting them to do sonething different, and is there a real or perceived scarcity of resources that can be remedied?

Sarah

Sandra Dodd

Perfect!
(But still I'll expand. :-))

Clare wrote: -=-The one thing that doesn't help unschooling is reading indiscriminately about it. Start with the starting points - the 'how to get started' pages on Sandra's site; Pam Larrichia's introductory email series. And then do the whole read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch thing...over and over. When you get back to the 'read a little' bit, make it discriminatory - read stuff that is relevant when it's relevant.-=-

YES.
If it hadn't been shown that people can read too much, I wouldn't be recommending "Read a little."

-=-The one thing that doesn't help unschooling is reading indiscriminately about it. -=-

There are a few other things that don't help, either, but indiscriminate ANYthing is a problem, when one should be learning how to think clearly and to see directly.

-=-Start with the starting points - the 'how to get started' pages on Sandra's site; Pam Larrichia's introductory email series.-=-

Pam's intro is linked on my "help" page, and is easy to google up, too.
I have a couple of starting pages, one speedy and pushy, and one quiet and gentle.
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://sandradodd.com/beginning

But anyplace can be a starting place. With "Don't do what you don't understand" as a motto, don't read what baffles you.

Another thing about reading is that there is school-style "reading" which is moving your eyes left to right, line by line, until the end of the page or chapter is reached and then looking up the answers if anyone asks you. For school, that's great. For learning to do something, or for figuring out how to move from being a same-old plain-old parent to a mindful unschooling parent, it is as worthless as anything could be.

And another way to look at is: Nobody cares how many books you've read about riding a bicycle if you can't ride a bicycle.

Sandra