cheri.tilford@...

Up until lately, my daughter (who will turn 4 next week) was one of those kids who was totally easy going, never had a tantrum, was a breeze to parent, and being her partner felt like a no brainer most of the time. 


Last week, she really threw me for a loop.  We were at a small indoor shopping area that has a great open play and art space for kids, which is perfect for slushy wintry days and she loves it.  We were there for a while before leaving to visit family (1.5 hour drive) for a planned event which she was excited about.  This shopping area has only one way in and out, and at the entrance/exit is a little cafe that sells gelato, which we frequent from time to time.  On this visit last week, I warned her about our dwindling time - which she likes me to do - and when it was time she was happy to leave.  As we passed the cafe she said she wanted ice cream and I told her we didn't have time now but we'd get some later with her grandparents.  She stopped in her tracks and screamed at the top of her lungs.  She's never done that before.  I spun around, kneeled in front of her, and quietly but sternly said it is not ok to scream like that here.  I held her hand as we walked towards the door and she pulled away and walked several steps back the other way, with a look on her face that said "what are you going to do now?".  I tried to grab her hand and she walked several more steps back, so I continued on my way towards the door.  I opened the door, at which point she came running and started crying that it's her job to open doors, and I commented matter-of-factly that she shouldn't have walked away from me then.  Once outside, we had to walk only half block, but the sidewalks were icy/slushy so she wanted to hold my hand but was simultaneously refusing to walk to the car.  I asked her if she wanted me to carry her and she screamed no.  A bit bewildered, I walked to the car.  She started crying again, so I went back for her, but she turned and walked the other way.  I told her she could walk to the car or I could carry her and she took a few more steps back so I went and scooped her up and put her in the car.  She refused to get in her car seat - at this point screaming nonstop - so I closed the car door and took a minute to calm myself down.  I then opened the door and said we had to go, I couldn't drive without her safely buckled in, and she just kept screaming, and kicking me as I tried to pick her up and put her in her seat.  I finally got her in her seat by a combo of picking her up and sort of smooshing her over by taking up the space she had occupied, all the while she's writhing, kicking and screaming.  As I tried to buckle her in, she hit my face with both hands and pulled my hair.  I am committed to not yelling, but I was so angry that I kind of growled through my teeth at her "don't hit me!" and "that's not ok!".  By the time she was buckled in I was sweating and shaking all over.  It was awful!  She was like a child who'd been possessed and I was in a state of shock.  


Today it happened again, in the same place, slightly different circumstances.  She had just finished with a dance class, I had to get her home to hang out with her dad so I could go to yoga class.  Before we even got near the cafe she said she wanted ice cream, I said I'd make her a bowl with a side of chocolates when we got home.  Stomping and screaming.  I said that's not ok at all, we had to go, she had a choice to walk or I'd carry her.  She screamed she didn't like choices and she wasn't going anywhere.  I picked her up and she hit and scratched my face, pulled on my ears so hard I thought she ripped an earring out, then pulled out two fistfuls of my hair, all the while screaming and trying to wriggle away.  I swung her body so I was hanging onto her waist and she was sideways so she couldn't reach my head and face and walked her out to the car.  She said she wanted to walk and I told her she had that chance and lost it.  I put her down so she could climb into the car then closed the door and got in the front seat where I could wait for her to calm down enough to buckle her in.  I said again it's not ok to hit, that she hurt me (she really did!  I was surprised my ear wasn't bleeding) and her behavior was completely unacceptable.  I gave her to the count of 3 to get into her car seat on her own and was amazed she did it, then let me buckle her without a fight.  As I was buckling her, she said through her sobs that she needed a hug (she'd done the same thing last week), so I paused and we hugged.  On the short drive home I reiterated how unacceptable her behavior was, which brought on a fresh bout of sobs - it really upsets her when I'm angry.


My husband and I are flabbergasted by this behavior and not sure how to react without being unnecessarily punitive.  

How do we make the firm point that this is seriously not ok?  He was not sure what to do as I basically came home, told him what happened and said you deal with her, and went to yoga.  He comforted her as she was quite upset and told her she can't hit.  I said what she needed was comfort so I was glad he was there to do that because I was too angry and needed some space.


A few things worth considering: common factors in both instances were time limits; she's decided being 4 means she's a big kid and sometimes likes that idea and sometimes doesn't (it was with great concern she asked me last night while nursing in bed if she can still nurse when she's 4); she's as tall as a 5 or 6 year old and when in public people sometimes expect more from her than she's capable of - and maybe I do, too; she's noticing places where she has power and places where she feels powerless and this can trigger a meltdown; and she's aware that when she cries I slow down and so she's increased her fake forced crying lately, which gets under my skin and tests my patience. 


I don't want to "give in" to basically shut her up, even though that was my urge today because I was embarrassed by her screams.  What else could I have done here?  We've already decided that next week my husband will come meet us after her class so I can casually go to mine and she doesn't have to rush, but do we say no ice cream because of your terrible episode previously, or plan to get her some because she loves it and it makes her happy?  Both of us feel like we should say before we leave the house that there will be no ice cream at the cafe, but is that a really delayed punishment, a remnant of conventional parenting we haven't flushed from our systems?  


We need your sage advice.  

If there are clarifying questions, I'll do my best to respond, otherwise I'll let the questions that come up percolate in the minds of the readers.


Thank you in advance,

cheri




fundayeveryday

After playing at an open play and art space she  probably needed nourishment.  Ice cream would have filled her belly:)

"I told her we didn't have time now"
Unless  there was a very long line of customers at the cafe, it probably wouldn't have taken very long to purchase an ice cream for her.
I think it would have been happier to buy an ice cream before a 1.5 hr trip.

Kristen


K Pennell

Oh, man. I do remember those days. I found it really hard to handle public melt downs calmly. I also felt like it was rude to everyone else to let my kid scream indefinitely in the middle of a public place, so I felt like I had to deal with it. 

One thing I tried to do with my daughter, who tended to have the biggest emotions, was give her LOTS of warnings before we had to leave a place. I'd tell her in advance if time was limited. I'd let her know "ten more minutes" and "five more minutes" and "two minutes" and then "ok, we have to go so we can get some donuts". For her, this helped. My sons didn't like or need that much warning, though. It made the older one tense. For him, it was fine to say "you should get ready to go soon"  or "find a good stopping place" and then "time to go get a treat". 

I did have a tendency to avoid places I KNEW were apt to cause meltdowns, either because they would want to buy things I couldn't afford, or they'd want to stay longer than was possible, or the noise, crowds and lights would be exciting but also stressful. 



From: "cheri.tilford@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2015 1:33 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Please help me respond with kindness and effective guidance



Up until lately, my daughter (who will turn 4 next week) was one of those kids who was totally easy going, never had a tantrum, was a breeze to parent, and being her partner felt like a no brainer most of the time. 

Last week, she really threw me for a loop.  We were at a small indoor shopping area that has a great open play and art space for kids, which is perfect for slushy wintry days and she loves it.  We were there for a while before leaving to visit family (1.5 hour drive) for a planned event which she was excited about.  This shopping area has only one way in and out, and at the entrance/exit is a little cafe that sells gelato, which we frequent from time to time.  On this visit last week, I warned her about our dwindling time - which she likes me to do - and when it was time she was happy to leave.  As we passed the cafe she said she wanted ice cream and I told her we didn't have time now but we'd get some later with her grandparents.  She stopped in her tracks and screamed at the top of her lungs.  She's never done that before.  I spun around, kneeled in front of her, and quietly but sternly said it is not ok to scream like that here.  I held her hand as we walked towards the door and she pulled away and walked several steps back the other way, with a look on her face that said "what are you going to do now?".  I tried to grab her hand and she walked several more steps back, so I continued on my way towards the door.  I opened the door, at which point she came running and started crying that it's her job to open doors, and I commented matter-of-factly that she shouldn't have walked away from me then.  Once outside, we had to walk only half block, but the sidewalks were icy/slushy so she wanted to hold my hand but was simultaneously refusing to walk to the car.  I asked her if she wanted me to carry her and she screamed no.  A bit bewildered, I walked to the car.  She started crying again, so I went back for her, but she turned and walked the other way.  I told her she could walk to the car or I could carry her and she took a few more steps back so I went and scooped her up and put her in the car.  She refused to get in her car seat - at this point screaming nonstop - so I closed the car door and took a minute to calm myself down.  I then opened the door and said we had to go, I couldn't drive without her safely buckled in, and she just kept screaming, and kicking me as I tried to pick her up and put her in her seat.  I finally got her in her seat by a combo of picking her up and sort of smooshing her over by taking up the space she had occupied, all the while she's writhing, kicking and screaming.  As I tried to buckle her in, she hit my face with both hands and pulled my hair.  I am committed to not yelling, but I was so angry that I kind of growled through my teeth at her "don't hit me!" and "that's not ok!".  By the time she was buckled in I was sweating and shaking all over.  It was awful!  She was like a child who'd been possessed and I was in a state of shock.  

Today it happened again, in the same place, slightly different circumstances.  She had just finished with a dance class, I had to get her home to hang out with her dad so I could go to yoga class.  Before we even got near the cafe she said she wanted ice cream, I said I'd make her a bowl with a side of chocolates when we got home.  Stomping and screaming.  I said that's not ok at all, we had to go, she had a choice to walk or I'd carry her.  She screamed she didn't like choices and she wasn't going anywhere.  I picked her up and she hit and scratched my face, pulled on my ears so hard I thought she ripped an earring out, then pulled out two fistfuls of my hair, all the while screaming and trying to wriggle away.  I swung her body so I was hanging onto her waist and she was sideways so she couldn't reach my head and face and walked her out to the car.  She said she wanted to walk and I told her she had that chance and lost it.  I put her down so she could climb into the car then closed the door and got in the front seat where I could wait for her to calm down enough to buckle her in.  I said again it's not ok to hit, that she hurt me (she really did!  I was surprised my ear wasn't bleeding) and her behavior was completely unacceptable.  I gave her to the count of 3 to get into her car seat on her own and was amazed she did it, then let me buckle her without a fight.  As I was buckling her, she said through her sobs that she needed a hug (she'd done the same thing last week), so I paused and we hugged.  On the short drive home I reiterated how unacceptable her behavior was, which brought on a fresh bout of sobs - it really upsets her when I'm angry.

My husband and I are flabbergasted by this behavior and not sure how to react without being unnecessarily punitive.  
How do we make the firm point that this is seriously not ok?  He was not sure what to do as I basically came home, told him what happened and said you deal with her, and went to yoga.  He comforted her as she was quite upset and told her she can't hit.  I said what she needed was comfort so I was glad he was there to do that because I was too angry and needed some space.

A few things worth considering: common factors in both instances were time limits; she's decided being 4 means she's a big kid and sometimes likes that idea and sometimes doesn't (it was with great concern she asked me last night while nursing in bed if she can still nurse when she's 4); she's as tall as a 5 or 6 year old and when in public people sometimes expect more from her than she's capable of - and maybe I do, too; she's noticing places where she has power and places where she feels powerless and this can trigger a meltdown; and she's aware that when she cries I slow down and so she's increased her fake forced crying lately, which gets under my skin and tests my patience. 

I don't want to "give in" to basically shut her up, even though that was my urge today because I was embarrassed by her screams.  What else could I have done here?  We've already decided that next week my husband will come meet us after her class so I can casually go to mine and she doesn't have to rush, but do we say no ice cream because of your terrible episode previously, or plan to get her some because she loves it and it makes her happy?  Both of us feel like we should say before we leave the house that there will be no ice cream at the cafe, but is that a really delayed punishment, a remnant of conventional parenting we haven't flushed from our systems?  

We need your sage advice.  
If there are clarifying questions, I'll do my best to respond, otherwise I'll let the questions that come up percolate in the minds of the readers.

Thank you in advance,
cheri







Tam Palmer

She's 3, and communicating that even with a time countdown she finds it too hard to go past this place she loves without getting an ice cream.
My three have a park that they love going to (we actually went there today!) and there's a little kiosk that sells hot dogs and ice lollies and they love choosing something. If we're going to go to that park, I make sure we have both the time and the money to get them all something. If we're short of one or the other, I suggest a different park entirely. 
Look at how you can partner her to meet her needs. You said you 'had to' go to yoga. Did you have to? Could you have missed that one? When you go to this place can you start earlier so there's more time? Can you avoid going there when you have plans afterwards? The idea about your husband going sounds good too. 

"plan to get her some [ice cream] because she loves it and it makes her happy? " Yes. Do this. Do it sweetly and happily and don't bring up what happened the time before.

Tam


Tam Palmer

Oh also... "I don't want to "give in" to basically shut her up, even though that was my urge today because I was embarrassed by her screams. "


One of the best things I've learnt here is that it's ok to realise you've misjudged a situation, or made the wrong choice in how to deal with something. If you've said no, and then realise it wasn't a well thought out no, or something was more important to your child than you realised, you can still make the other choice. Thoughtfully changing your mind and saying yes is far better for your child and your relationship than sticking to a knee jerk "no" so that you don't feel like you're giving in.


We were in McDonalds late last year, and a mum and her approximately-three year old girl were sitting near us. The girl said she was full and she didn't want any more food. The mum said if she didn't eat it she'd throw her happy meal toy in the bin. The girl still said she was full so the mum threw the toy in the bin, and the little girl screamed and sobbed her heart out for the next fifteen minutes or so, begging for this toy back. It was so so sad, and I wished more than anything the whole time that the mum would say, actually, I'm sorry, I made the wrong choice there, let's go get you a replacement toy. There are far worse things in the world than making a different choice to make your child happy, even if you started off a different way.


Tam


Sent from my iPhone


> On 4 Feb 2015, at 06:33, cheri.tilford@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I don't want to "give in" to basically shut her up, even though that was my urge today because I was embarrassed by her screams.

Kirsty Harriman

Hi cheri,

been there done that (still are) with our eldest girls who are now 9 and 7. It's incredibly challenging when faced with such intensity especially if it's a bit out of the blue.

I understand the reason behind the no ice cream in the first instance and there were safety reasons you needed to do what you did to get to the car and drive away so I am not sure if there was anything you could have done differently except maybe allowed more time to buy some ice cream to prevent the meltdown (I do lots of things everyday that I could have done differently to prevent meltdowns... it's much easier to see in hindsight).. 

has she been ok in the past if there's no time to have ice cream? Do you often or usually get ice cream from there or just occasionally? Was there a reason for not buying ice cream in the second instance? Was there time then? 



Sent from my Samsung GALAXY Note3 on the Telstra 4G network


-------- Original message --------
From: "cheri.tilford@... [AlwaysLearning]"
Date:04/02/2015 4:33 PM (GMT+10:00)
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Please help me respond with kindness and effective guidance

 

Up until lately, my daughter (who will turn 4 next week) was one of those kids who was totally easy going, never had a tantrum, was a breeze to parent, and being her partner felt like a no brainer most of the time. 


Last week, she really threw me for a loop.  We were at a small indoor shopping area that has a great open play and art space for kids, which is perfect for slushy wintry days and she loves it.  We were there for a while before leaving to visit family (1.5 hour drive) for a planned event which she was excited about.  This shopping area has only one way in and out, and at the entrance/exit is a little cafe that sells gelato, which we frequent from time to time.  On this visit last week, I warned her about our dwindling time - which she likes me to do - and when it was time she was happy to leave.  As we passed the cafe she said she wanted ice cream and I told her we didn't have time now but we'd get some later with her grandparents.  She stopped in her tracks and screamed at the top of her lungs.  She's never done that before.  I spun around, kneeled in front of her, and quietly but sternly said it is not ok to scream like that here.  I held her hand as we walked towards the door and she pulled away and walked several steps back the other way, with a look on her face that said "what are you going to do now?".  I tried to grab her hand and she walked several more steps back, so I continued on my way towards the door.  I opened the door, at which point she came running and started crying that it's her job to open doors, and I commented matter-of-factly that she shouldn't have walked away from me then.  Once outside, we had to walk only half block, but the sidewalks were icy/slushy so she wanted to hold my hand but was simultaneously refusing to walk to the car.  I asked her if she wanted me to carry her and she screamed no.  A bit bewildered, I walked to the car.  She started crying again, so I went back for her, but she turned and walked the other way.  I told her she could walk to the car or I could carry her and she took a few more steps back so I went and scooped her up and put her in the car.  She refused to get in her car seat - at this point screaming nonstop - so I closed the car door and took a minute to calm myself down.  I then opened the door and said we had to go, I couldn't drive without her safely buckled in, and she just kept screaming, and kicking me as I tried to pick her up and put her in her seat.  I finally got her in her seat by a combo of picking her up and sort of smooshing her over by taking up the space she had occupied, all the while she's writhing, kicking and screaming.  As I tried to buckle her in, she hit my face with both hands and pulled my hair.  I am committed to not yelling, but I was so angry that I kind of growled through my teeth at her "don't hit me!" and "that's not ok!".  By the time she was buckled in I was sweating and shaking all over.  It was awful!  She was like a child who'd been possessed and I was in a state of shock.  


Today it happened again, in the same place, slightly different circumstances.  She had just finished with a dance class, I had to get her home to hang out with her dad so I could go to yoga class.  Before we even got near the cafe she said she wanted ice cream, I said I'd make her a bowl with a side of chocolates when we got home.  Stomping and screaming.  I said that's not ok at all, we had to go, she had a choice to walk or I'd carry her.  She screamed she didn't like choices and she wasn't going anywhere.  I picked her up and she hit and scratched my face, pulled on my ears so hard I thought she ripped an earring out, then pulled out two fistfuls of my hair, all the while screaming and trying to wriggle away.  I swung her body so I was hanging onto her waist and she was sideways so she couldn't reach my head and face and walked her out to the car.  She said she wanted to walk and I told her she had that chance and lost it.  I put her down so she could climb into the car then closed the door and got in the front seat where I could wait for her to calm down enough to buckle her in.  I said again it's not ok to hit, that she hurt me (she really did!  I was surprised my ear wasn't bleeding) and her behavior was completely unacceptable.  I gave her to the count of 3 to get into her car seat on her own and was amazed she did it, then let me buckle her without a fight.  As I was buckling her, she said through her sobs that she needed a hug (she'd done the same thing last week), so I paused and we hugged.  On the short drive home I reiterated how unacceptable her behavior was, which brought on a fresh bout of sobs - it really upsets her when I'm angry.


My husband and I are flabbergasted by this behavior and not sure how to react without being unnecessarily punitive.  

How do we make the firm point that this is seriously not ok?  He was not sure what to do as I basically came home, told him what happened and said you deal with her, and went to yoga.  He comforted her as she was quite upset and told her she can't hit.  I said what she needed was comfort so I was glad he was there to do that because I was too angry and needed some space.


A few things worth considering: common factors in both instances were time limits; she's decided being 4 means she's a big kid and sometimes likes that idea and sometimes doesn't (it was with great concern she asked me last night while nursing in bed if she can still nurse when she's 4); she's as tall as a 5 or 6 year old and when in public people sometimes expect more from her than she's capable of - and maybe I do, too; she's noticing places where she has power and places where she feels powerless and this can trigger a meltdown; and she's aware that when she cries I slow down and so she's increased her fake forced crying lately, which gets under my skin and tests my patience. 


I don't want to "give in" to basically shut her up, even though that was my urge today because I was embarrassed by her screams.  What else could I have done here?  We've already decided that next week my husband will come meet us after her class so I can casually go to mine and she doesn't have to rush, but do we say no ice cream because of your terrible episode previously, or plan to get her some because she loves it and it makes her happy?  Both of us feel like we should say before we leave the house that there will be no ice cream at the cafe, but is that a really delayed punishment, a remnant of conventional parenting we haven't flushed from our systems?  


We need your sage advice.  

If there are clarifying questions, I'll do my best to respond, otherwise I'll let the questions that come up percolate in the minds of the readers.


Thank you in advance,

cheri




Ali Zeljo

<. What else could I have done here? We've already decided that next week my husband will come meet us after her class so I can casually go to mine and she doesn't have to rush, but do we say no ice cream because of your terrible episode previously, or plan to get her some because she loves it and it makes her happy? Both of us feel like we should say before we leave the house that there will be no ice cream at the cafe, but is that a really delayed punishment, a remnant of conventional parenting we haven't flushed from our systems? >


If there's no time for ice cream after, you could warn her ahead of time. I would make a plan before you leave home when she's calm. Remember last time when you lost control? Will it help you feel calm if we go early to get ice cream, or if we pack a yummy treat for the car ride after?


You may find out it wasn't about the ice cream but that she just needed more time to play (and you are already solving that by having dad meet her there.). I wouldn't tie getting ice cream to her behavior.


She is still very young! It sounds like she needs help learning to deal with transitions and disappointments. She needs to know you are her safe go-to person. If you respond by saying no ice cream cause you did that- she's not going to feel connected with you. She may feel misunderstood and unreasonably punished. And ice cream becomes this glorified thing you only get when you are a good girl!


There are times as a mom when I have had a schedule to keep, but I see that my young child just can't keep up. These times, if I did not plan well enough to accommodate my kids, I have sometimes chosen to let go of my plans. When you notice your daughter is losing it, it's ok to let go of your time schedule and get down on her level, look into her eyes and connect with her. This alone is sometimes enough to shift things in both of you. But if her needs are really big, you might be late to class or miss class in order to connect with your child in need. And then next time, you plan better.


Warmly,
Ali

CASS KOTRBA


-=-She stopped in her tracks and screamed at the top of her lungs. -=-
-=-  She refused to get in her car seat - at this point screaming nonstop -=-

She was trying to tell you, with every tool in her arsenal and every fiber of her being, that she really, really, really wanted the ice cream.  With all of the drama you have described I wonder if it wouldn't have taken just as much time to pop into the shop and get the ice cream to eat happily in the car on the ride home.  That's what I'd do next time.  Or have your husband come, as you described, to be with her & enjoy watching her enjoy her treat.  You know that it's important to her so plan for it.  I'd do everything in my power to get as much of that treat for her as I could.  

-=-I don't want to "give in" to basically shut her up, even though that was my urge today because I was embarrassed by her screams.  What else could I have done here? -=-

You could have bought the ice cream and you both could have had a nice experience. 

-=- she's aware that when she cries I slow down and so she's increased her fake forced crying lately, which gets under my skin and tests my patience. -=-

It's not about you or your husband's feelings, it's not about what other people think.  It's about her and how she feels.  It sounds like she feels powerless and frustrated.  By your actions, you are reminding her that she has no power to get the ice cream herself and telling her that she is not important enough for you to spend some of your power on.  Think about what the experience is like from her perspective.  

Why is she "fake" crying?  It sounds like you are judging her feelings as unimportant.  Is she crying to get your attention?  Give it to her.  Freely and generously.  Don't make her cry for what she wants.  Be tuned into her and try to avoid letting her get to the point where she feels the need to cry.

-=- but do we say no ice cream because of your terrible episode previously, or plan to get her some because she loves it and it makes her happy?  Both of us feel like we should say before we leave the house that there will be no ice cream at the cafe, -=-

Is your goal to have a close, supportive, trusting relationship with her or to teach her how she should feel and behave?  http://sandradodd.com/teaching/  You know how she feels about the ice cream so don't put yourselves in a position again where you are telling her "no".  Set yourselves up for successful, happy experiences.  

What is it about this treat that she desires so much.  Is it the fact that she can't get it?  http://sandradodd.com/t/economics  Is it the taste?  Texture?  Container it comes in?  What can you do to bring more of that into her life.  Maybe she'd like to experiment with making her own ice cream.  Buying a variety of flavors and having a taste test at home.  What can you do to bring her a feeling of abundance instead of lack?

Next time, maybe you could buy 2 or 3 of them and put the extras in your freezer for later.  Let her decide what "later" is.  Maybe it will be the next day.  Maybe it will be 10 minutes later.  Maybe she won't eat her dinner and she will want you to fix some food for her later.  Fix it with a heart full of love, understanding and acceptance of her, not full of resentment or fear that you are teaching her the wrong lesson.  

-Cass



CASS KOTRBA

-=-  it's not about what other people think.  -=-

I'm not saying that other people's experiences don't matter.  I'm trying to encourage you to look at it from your daughter's perspective. And that with a bit more planning and thought, hopefully the  negative experience could be avoided by all. And maybe one or more of the people around your daughter will look at her, gleefully enjoying her ice cream, and they'll smile to themselves or at you and think "what a nice thing to watch that cute little girl being so happy." :-D  Then everybody wins!


kgharriman1@...

Just remembering that in the very first part of the post Cheri wrote how much of a "no-brainer" it had been until now to partner her daughter, which to me means that in the past maybe she had accepted a "no, we don't have time today" response? I know that my newly 3 year old would accept that okay. not so my older kids, but there's been plenty of yeses to things in the past year that they're much more likely to be okay with a "not today there's no time/money" for that because they're confident there will be a next time (not so a year or so ago though when I had much stricter limits).

So maybe there has been no need to do anything differently if "partnering" means that she always fitted in with whatever was convenient at that moment? Its when its NOT convenient or when the parent must change plans (eg. drop yoga that day or be late or allow more time or stop for just a minute or two two buy an ice cream and be a bit late for the family get together  - does that matter? - or whatever... ).... or really think through situations in advance that the partnering becomes a more thought out and mindful practice.

I know in moments when I have said no to something when I could have said yes its often because I am preoccupied, rushed, feeling like I have said YES to absolutely everything lately and feel like a doormat, and then I sort of do a 180 and say NO just because. No good reason and that's not where I want to be and it reminds me how far I have to go on this unschooling journey.

CASS KOTRBA

-=- And maybe one or more of the people around your daughter will look at her, gleefully enjoying her ice cream, and they'll smile to themselves or at you and think "what a nice thing to watch that cute little girl being so happy." :-D  Then everybody wins! -=-

There have been many times over the years when people have watched my daughter and I interacting & they've commented to me that they enjoyed watching us or have given me big, warm smiles that indicated the same.  That makes me feel good.

-=-  It was so so sad, and I wished more than anything the whole time that the mum would say, actually, I'm sorry, I made the wrong choice there, let's go get you a replacement toy. There are far worse things in the world than making a different choice to make your child happy, even if you started off a different way.-=-

I have made mistakes in judgement, especially prior to and in the early days of unschooling.  As soon as I recognize the error in my thinking I apologize right away and say that I'm sorry, I was confused in my thinking.  To this day my daughter, now 12, will bring up little things from when she was very small that she remembers as injustices on my end.  I sometimes have no recollection of the event but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.  I apologize to her and say something like "I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings (or did that, or whatever the case may be).  I was confused in my thinking then and I'm very sorry that I made you feel that way.  I will try my best to never do that to you again.  But you let me know if I do, ok?"  Usually followed by a hug.  :-D

cheri.tilford@...

kristy, you've got it right - up until lately, there's been no need for me to do anything differently.  she's been the easiest kid I've ever seen. 

on both occasions, I had tons of food with me - I always do, and we sometimes also get ice cream, sometimes she says she doesn't feel like it.  this place sells gelato - really soft, messy, slow for her to eat, definitely not food for the car.  we had made a commitment, for which someone else had purchased our tickets, and it was not appropriate for us to be late.  not to mention she was really excited about going!

I could have missed the yoga class.  in fact, the previous 2 classes I had missed because she was upset about me going, and she's my priority and I want her to feel that.  I had checked in with her several times that day about her being ok with me going (she has so much fun with her dad) and that one yoga class is literally the only regular thing on my schedule, otherwise I'm home with her.  she had never resisted me going until lately. 

I'm adamant about honoring feelings, while learning how to express them without hurting others or being publicly disruptive.  a quick example of her forced crying:  we were at a restaurant over the weekend, she'd had a few bites of food on her plate that sat untouched for about an hour while she colored and chatted with us.  totally fine by me and my husband.  we boxed up the food we didn't eat, paid for the meal, and my husband went out to warm the car while we got our jackets on, and I double checked right before we left the table if she wanted any last bites.  she said no, so we left.  the restaurant was almost empty and nearing closing time and the server came immediately to clean our table as we walked out.  when we got to the car, she got upset about the little pieces of food she left.  we assured her we had lots of leftovers, and she said she wanted THOSE bites.  I gently explained the server already cleaned our table, and reminded her she hadn't wanted to eat them just moments ago.  she forced some crying sounds, insisting we go back and get those bites.  had I not seen them get cleared, I would have, but it was too late. my husband, also being gentle, assured her we had a box full of exactly what was on her plate, but that didn't help.  

she seems to be having a hard time not getting exactly what she wants.  I recognize the world is full of real limits, especially for small children, so I try to provide what she wants - over and above what she needs - as often as I can.  
I remember reading here once that a spoiled child is not one who gets what s/he wants whenever, but when the parent caves to inappropriate behavior, essentially letting the child run the show. (I'm paraphrasing big time). 
I don't want her to learn that unacceptable behavior (hitting, screaming, pulling my hair) is a way to get what she wants.  I have no problem with being sweet and generous.  I do have a problem with being bullied by my own child.  

and I'm less concerned with what others think than with being an obnoxious disturbance to others in public. 




Robyn Coburn

When Jayn was little and behaved that way there was only one reason for it. She was hungry. Giving her some food made the cranky disappear like magic. Transitions were hard enough for her when she wasn't hungry - but her ability to think anything through disappeared completely when she was hungry.

It may be that your dd is having a growth spurt and needs more calories than previously. If it happens after a bunch of activity, as it often did with Jayn, then right there is the reason that she might have become hungry sooner than you expected, AND at the same time was too distracted with fun to notice that she was getting hungry until it was too late, as it were.

You know those Snickers bar ads - "You're not you when you're hungry" - that was my life with Jayn up until about 11 or 12 really.

Also in the middle of the melt down is a futile time to engage in any discussion. Jayn would tell me that she couldn't hear herself thinking if I was talking - so she would shout louder.

Carry snacks. Always. Buy gelato. 

Robyn C.

CASS KOTRBA

-=-   I gently explained the server already cleaned our table, and reminded her she hadn't wanted to eat them just moments ago.  she forced some crying sounds, insisting we go back and get those bites. -=-

-=- she seems to be having a hard time not getting exactly what she wants.  I recognize the world is full of real limits, especially for small children, so I try to provide what she wants - over and above what she needs - as often as I can.-=-

Maybe she is having a mental "growth spurt" & is exploring her world in a new way,  trying to discover how much power and control she has in it.   As my kids have grown I've seen them go through times where they want to push their previously comfortable boundaries.  Maybe she's trying to gather information.  


Joyce Fetteroll

I think the basic issue is she's changing. You want her to be happy. Unintentionally your focus is getting her *back* to the happy person she was before. But there is no back. There's only forward. Her triggers have changed. They might change again but they won't go back.

So shift your focus to figuring out what her new triggers are. Don't try to reason with her when she's melted down. Emotions don't respond well to reason. It tends to get them more upset ;-) In the moment comfort, changing the situation, backing up to give her what she wants are better options.

Don't worry -- as conventional parents will warn you -- that responding to a melt down will teach her bad habits. If you wait for a melt down to give in, yes, she will learn to melt down to get what she wants. But that whole mode of thinking is several giant steps away from mindful parenting. Shift to meeting her needs before she needs to melt down to get her point across!

Right now you're in a time of change so you don't know her new needs. A melt down is communication. Something new triggered it. It's your job to be a detective. :-) Discover what change age has made in her so you can meet her new needs.

Joyce