New behavior and parenting advice from family while camping
puahinano@...
I have never posted here but have been reading on and off for more than two years and really appreciate the thoughtful discussions and the sound advice given. I really felt sad and disturbed by a recent experience and would like feedback, as this was new for my family and I. Our two girls are 3 and 1.
I am basically seeking advice on two things: 1) How to proceed with a relationship with another family that now feels very uncomfortable, and 2) How to handle a recent behavior that my daughter is having.
Here is the scenario: We went camping for 3 nights with my husband's second cousin, his wife and their daughter (9.5). Up till this point we have had pleasant interactions and enjoyed each other's company. However, camping together was a totally different experience. They were physically generous, sharing their huge sleeping tent, shade tent, cooking setup, etc. because we have little to no camping gear (an offer they made before the trip), but they were emotionally quite reserved and even distant at times. What we felt happened was that they decided in the first evening of being together that they basically didn't really like our kids or our parenting style and pretty much kind of ignored our two girls for the rest of the trip (my husband said he even saw his cousin "snarl" at my daughter when she was communicating in a way that he found displeasing).
They didn't attempt to play (or otherwise connect) with the kids even once (an idea that I probably should never have had; just because it felt very natural for me to play with their daughter and try to create fun opportunities for all the kids to play together doesn't mean they will be that way) and at every perceived opportunity gave my husband advice on parenting. His cousin told him that he should be more "assertive" as a father and mentioned the book "Babywise" ("On becoming Babywise") at least three times. [They actually told us about the book before our first girl was born and I read it, but when she came out I found myself at the Dr. Sears website reading madly because the principles of attachment parenting were what really resonated with me, despite my own mother and grandmother saying things like "If you pick her up every time she cries you're going to spoil her." We basically found attachment parenting and never looked back.]
One thing that came up that seemed to be a big issue (or I thought so by their body language, looks, and comments at various stages) was that our 3 year-old was "whining". My husband's cousin said to my husband that you have to "nip that kind of behavior in the bud."
Lately - like just in the last two weeks - there has become an urgency and emotional bigness to much of her communication. Requests or small things that annoy or frustrate her (a twisted dress strap, the wrong cup, etc.) can come out with a stressful tone and urgency that may seem "unwarranted" from this couple's perspective, but are her genuine experience at that moment. We have been trying to figure out how to best navigate it, and usually say something like, "Please use your normal voice" or "Take a deep breath and slow down, please, so I can understand you." If a request is framed like a demand, I usually say "I would appreciate a kind request" or "Can you please ask me in a kind way with a normal voice?" Am I on track with these kinds of responses or is it further screwing things up? Maybe a "normal" voice is too abstract a concept? I feel like calling it whining is coated in judgment and doesn't help (i.e. it doesn't felt right to me to say "Stop whining"). Could it be that I am missing other signals and it is a function of needing food or playtime together or something else? Maybe feeling uncomfortable in a new environment?
Because it is such recent behavior, we are still trying to get a handle on dealing with it, but I didn't feel it was so frequent or intense that it should ruin their holiday. I felt like every time she "whined" I had to have some response that was going to make them happy (because we were basically in "their" space). It felt as though we were under a microscope and that was a really stressful experience. Sharing such an intimate space can be tough, but it can also be joyful. It didn't feel like they brought much joy to the table. What I have read about brain development says that the emotional part of the brain is really growing from around 3-5, so I feel like this kind of behavior is fairly "normal" or age-appropriate. Is that totally off? I understand it was annoying for them, but I don't think intolerance helps anyone learn or feel happy or peaceful.
This piece from Sandra really made me think:
- - IF (just if) your regular mode of communication is to coat words in words and then have introductory phrases, that will very likely cause children not to understand you, first of all; not to take you seriously; and eventually not to listen to you. - -
I think I do this - use too many words sometimes - and I am trying to get better about simplifying communication. I also feel like it is important to empathize with where she is at, yet that can seem long-winded at times. Is that best saved for a later, more quiet moment? Maybe some of the other communication that this couple heard us using seemed long-winded (i.e. "unassertive") and that is why the cousin made the comment re assertiveness? I am not so much concerned about what they think as I am about whether we are handling things in a way that is helping her (and not just to make that moment easier, but to help with future communication).
I don't want to take up more space listing all the rings that happened during the trip that I found upsetting, suffice to say that their vibe was different - not as friendly or easygoing as usual, and at times quite stressed out. I felt like my kids were an annoyance to them and that they felt we were really screwing up as parents. I don't place a lot of stock in their opinions, but the experience has made me not want to be around them. I am not sure how to proceed from here. I feel like it would be awkward to have no contact, but the things we experienced (again, too many to innumerate here) made me want to keep my children away from them. They are family and it could easily get awkward with the wider family if we didn't figure out a good way of handling it. Any advice on this kind of scenario?
Thanks,
Puahinano
Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe a "normal" voice is too abstract a concept? I feel like calling it whining is coated in judgment and doesn't help (i.e. it doesn't felt right to me to say "Stop whining"). Could it be that I am missing other signals and it is a function of needing food or playtime together or something else? Maybe feeling uncomfortable in a new environment? -=-
When my ids were receptive and not really truly upset but just whining casually, I sometimes used the same tone and whined back. That's how they got the difference in the tone. I would say (in the same whiney voice) something like "I don't KNOW why it's raining," or "I can't understand you very well when you WHIIINE." ONLY when it could be fun and funny and light.
I do agree that if parents never say anything about it and don't distinguish between mature communication and babyish, that it can cause a child to be babyish more and longer than they might otherwise be.
But as to sharing a tent, I'm surprised you ever thought it could possibly be a good idea. So the FIRST thing to learn from that is not to get your family into a situation where you can't withdraw and be alone.
Meals with relatives, for a while? Restaurants—not your house, not their house. Holidays? Get a motel room. Show up early! Stay late! But have a place to go if stress builds up.
It is quite common for the more conservative folks to be sure they know what they're doing that that kinder parents are clueless.
A family that was in sharp contrast to ours, when all our kids were young, had their oldest daughter die of suicide a couple of weeks ago. i *KNOW* for absolute fact that my kids were happier when they were young, and happier as adults but that family and all our mutual friends would have put money bets on the other family to "succeed" and our family to be clueless losers. They would have lost that bet.
Sandra
When my ids were receptive and not really truly upset but just whining casually, I sometimes used the same tone and whined back. That's how they got the difference in the tone. I would say (in the same whiney voice) something like "I don't KNOW why it's raining," or "I can't understand you very well when you WHIIINE." ONLY when it could be fun and funny and light.
I do agree that if parents never say anything about it and don't distinguish between mature communication and babyish, that it can cause a child to be babyish more and longer than they might otherwise be.
But as to sharing a tent, I'm surprised you ever thought it could possibly be a good idea. So the FIRST thing to learn from that is not to get your family into a situation where you can't withdraw and be alone.
Meals with relatives, for a while? Restaurants—not your house, not their house. Holidays? Get a motel room. Show up early! Stay late! But have a place to go if stress builds up.
It is quite common for the more conservative folks to be sure they know what they're doing that that kinder parents are clueless.
A family that was in sharp contrast to ours, when all our kids were young, had their oldest daughter die of suicide a couple of weeks ago. i *KNOW* for absolute fact that my kids were happier when they were young, and happier as adults but that family and all our mutual friends would have put money bets on the other family to "succeed" and our family to be clueless losers. They would have lost that bet.
Sandra
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I think your biggest mistake is thinking that it would be OK to share a tent and 3 days together with such young kids with another family that you KNEW used BabyWise and another totally different type of parenting!!
I would have not gone on such a trip. Too much pressure on the kids and not enough separation and space for people to decompress from each other. They do not even have a little kid anymore.
Having said that I could guess that your 3 year old is feeling her needs need to be addressed more urgently because I am betting the 1 year old is mobile now and takes way more of your attention leaving her waiting or with less attention that she needs. Be mindful of her needs. Don't always make her be the one to wait because she is older.
I remember having two about that age. My husband and I or my mom and I did a lot of one takes on child and the other takes the other child. Many times my son wanted me and the baby went to grandma or dad. I remember 3 being an age when my son really needed . He was still a baby. Don't forget that :)
Having said that I could guess that your 3 year old is feeling her needs need to be addressed more urgently because I am betting the 1 year old is mobile now and takes way more of your attention leaving her waiting or with less attention that she needs. Be mindful of her needs. Don't always make her be the one to wait because she is older.
I remember having two about that age. My husband and I or my mom and I did a lot of one takes on child and the other takes the other child. Many times my son wanted me and the baby went to grandma or dad. I remember 3 being an age when my son really needed . He was still a baby. Don't forget that :)
On Friday, January 30, 2015 5:44 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-Maybe a "normal" voice is too abstract a concept? I feel like calling it whining is coated in judgment and doesn't help (i.e. it doesn't felt right to me to say "Stop whining"). Could it be that I am missing other signals and it is a function of needing food or playtime together or something else? Maybe feeling uncomfortable in a new environment? -=-
When my ids were receptive and not really truly upset but just whining casually, I sometimes used the same tone and whined back. That's how they got the difference in the tone. I would say (in the same whiney voice) something like "I don't KNOW why it's raining," or "I can't understand you very well when you WHIIINE." ONLY when it could be fun and funny and light.
I do agree that if parents never say anything about it and don't distinguish between mature communication and babyish, that it can cause a child to be babyish more and longer than they might otherwise be.
But as to sharing a tent, I'm surprised you ever thought it could possibly be a good idea. So the FIRST thing to learn from that is not to get your family into a situation where you can't withdraw and be alone.
Meals with relatives, for a while? Restaurants—not your house, not their house. Holidays? Get a motel room. Show up early! Stay late! But have a place to go if stress builds up.
It is quite common for the more conservative folks to be sure they know what they're doing that that kinder parents are clueless.
A family that was in sharp contrast to ours, when all our kids were young, had their oldest daughter die of suicide a couple of weeks ago. i *KNOW* for absolute fact that my kids were happier when they were young, and happier as adults but that family and all our mutual friends would have put money bets on the other family to "succeed" and our family to be clueless losers. They would have lost that bet.
Sandra
When my ids were receptive and not really truly upset but just whining casually, I sometimes used the same tone and whined back. That's how they got the difference in the tone. I would say (in the same whiney voice) something like "I don't KNOW why it's raining," or "I can't understand you very well when you WHIIINE." ONLY when it could be fun and funny and light.
I do agree that if parents never say anything about it and don't distinguish between mature communication and babyish, that it can cause a child to be babyish more and longer than they might otherwise be.
But as to sharing a tent, I'm surprised you ever thought it could possibly be a good idea. So the FIRST thing to learn from that is not to get your family into a situation where you can't withdraw and be alone.
Meals with relatives, for a while? Restaurants—not your house, not their house. Holidays? Get a motel room. Show up early! Stay late! But have a place to go if stress builds up.
It is quite common for the more conservative folks to be sure they know what they're doing that that kinder parents are clueless.
A family that was in sharp contrast to ours, when all our kids were young, had their oldest daughter die of suicide a couple of weeks ago. i *KNOW* for absolute fact that my kids were happier when they were young, and happier as adults but that family and all our mutual friends would have put money bets on the other family to "succeed" and our family to be clueless losers. They would have lost that bet.
Sandra
semajrak@...
<<Am I on track with these kinds of responses or is it further screwing things up? Maybe a "normal" voice is too abstract a concept?>>
When Ethan was around three, he started whining a lot. It was intense for Doug and myself. One afternoon, I turned to Ethan and said "Ethan, stop whining." When I heard myself, I started laughing. The way I said stop whining was with whining! :-) I started listening more to how I talked after that, and I began to notice that I did that a lot, especially if we were in a hurry or I felt some sense of urgency for whatever reason.
When I laughed on that first occasion, Ethan looked at me like I might have lost my mind. I said something like "Did you see what I just did there? I told you not to whine in a whiney voice!" Then we both laughed. Probably that helped him hear what whining sounded like too. When I was more mindful of my own manner of speaking, Ethan gradually shifted too--probably a combination of his own growth and development and my better example.
Karen James
When Ethan was around three, he started whining a lot. It was intense for Doug and myself. One afternoon, I turned to Ethan and said "Ethan, stop whining." When I heard myself, I started laughing. The way I said stop whining was with whining! :-) I started listening more to how I talked after that, and I began to notice that I did that a lot, especially if we were in a hurry or I felt some sense of urgency for whatever reason.
When I laughed on that first occasion, Ethan looked at me like I might have lost my mind. I said something like "Did you see what I just did there? I told you not to whine in a whiney voice!" Then we both laughed. Probably that helped him hear what whining sounded like too. When I was more mindful of my own manner of speaking, Ethan gradually shifted too--probably a combination of his own growth and development and my better example.
Karen James
chris ester
My children are also 2 years apart in age, though I have one boy and one girl (my youngest). I remember that when my son started whining around the age of 3, it would REALLY get my attention because I am very sensitive to sound and would react with stress and upset of my own. At first, I would just respond to the request and try to "make" him stop that voice... This, of course, led to that voice being the favorite mode of communication for my son. It was only a matter of days, but seemed like months!
I then started looking at the circumstances. Often, my son would whine when he was frustrated, usually that frustration was the result of either him meeting a roadblock to his desire/need or because he felt like he wasn't being heard. I knew this by paying attention. His whiny voice was usually used when he was repeating himself (because he didn't get a response the first time) or when he tried to do something for himself and couldn't because of his size or development (something like getting a container open or putting together a particular toy) or when the general atmosphere was stressful because we were tired/hungry/over stimulated.
I found that by taking a deep breath and calming down myself and responding with a sweeter attitude/voice/words and practicing that resulted in less whining for all of us.
When you have what amounts to a small toddler and a bigger toddler (who is probably transitioning to being a "big kid") it is hard to keep up. That 1 year old is probably just getting mobile and more demanding of your time and energy and your 3 year old is really starting to explore but needs the comfort of a parent to help (follow and do with). I have to say that my kids seemed to move through whining to happier communication a lot quicker than the children of some of my more structured friends (who were a little closer to being "baby wise").
chris
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 6:19 AM, puahinano@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:I have never posted here but have been reading on and off for more than two years and really appreciate the thoughtful discussions and the sound advice given. I really felt sad and disturbed by a recent experience and would like feedback, as this was new for my family and I. Our two girls are 3 and 1.
I am basically seeking advice on two things: 1) How to proceed with a relationship with another family that now feels very uncomfortable, and 2) How to handle a recent behavior that my daughter is having.Here is the scenario: We went camping for 3 nights with my husband's second cousin, his wife and their daughter (9.5). Up till this point we have had pleasant interactions and enjoyed each other's company. However, camping together was a totally different experience. They were physically generous, sharing their huge sleeping tent, shade tent, cooking setup, etc. because we have little to no camping gear (an offer they made before the trip), but they were emotionally quite reserved and even distant at times. What we felt happened was that they decided in the first evening of being together that they basically didn't really like our kids or our parenting style and pretty much kind of ignored our two girls for the rest of the trip (my husband said he even saw his cousin "snarl" at my daughter when she was communicating in a way that he found displeasing).They didn't attempt to play (or otherwise connect) with the kids even once (an idea that I probably should never have had; just because it felt very natural for me to play with their daughter and try to create fun opportunities for all the kids to play together doesn't mean they will be that way) and at every perceived opportunity gave my husband advice on parenting. His cousin told him that he should be more "assertive" as a father and mentioned the book "Babywise" ("On becoming Babywise") at least three times. [They actually told us about the book before our first girl was born and I read it, but when she came out I found myself at the Dr. Sears website reading madly because the principles of attachment parenting were what really resonated with me, despite my own mother and grandmother saying things like "If you pick her up every time she cries you're going to spoil her." We basically found attachment parenting and never looked back.]One thing that came up that seemed to be a big issue (or I thought so by their body language, looks, and comments at various stages) was that our 3 year-old was "whining". My husband's cousin said to my husband that you have to "nip that kind of behavior in the bud."Lately - like just in the last two weeks - there has become an urgency and emotional bigness to much of her communication. Requests or small things that annoy or frustrate her (a twisted dress strap, the wrong cup, etc.) can come out with a stressful tone and urgency that may seem "unwarranted" from this couple's perspective, but are her genuine experience at that moment. We have been trying to figure out how to best navigate it, and usually say something like, "Please use your normal voice" or "Take a deep breath and slow down, please, so I can understand you." If a request is framed like a demand, I usually say "I would appreciate a kind request" or "Can you please ask me in a kind way with a normal voice?" Am I on track with these kinds of responses or is it further screwing things up? Maybe a "normal" voice is too abstract a concept? I feel like calling it whining is coated in judgment and doesn't help (i.e. it doesn't felt right to me to say "Stop whining"). Could it be that I am missing other signals and it is a function of needing food or playtime together or something else? Maybe feeling uncomfortable in a new environment?Because it is such recent behavior, we are still trying to get a handle on dealing with it, but I didn't feel it was so frequent or intense that it should ruin their holiday. I felt like every time she "whined" I had to have some response that was going to make them happy (because we were basically in "their" space). It felt as though we were under a microscope and that was a really stressful experience. Sharing such an intimate space can be tough, but it can also be joyful. It didn't feel like they brought much joy to the table. What I have read about brain development says that the emotional part of the brain is really growing from around 3-5, so I feel like this kind of behavior is fairly "normal" or age-appropriate. Is that totally off? I understand it was annoying for them, but I don't think intolerance helps anyone learn or feel happy or peaceful.This piece from Sandra really made me think:- - IF (just if) your regular mode of communication is to coat words in words and then have introductory phrases, that will very likely cause children not to understand you, first of all; not to take you seriously; and eventually not to listen to you. - -I think I do this - use too many words sometimes - and I am trying to get better about simplifying communication. I also feel like it is important to empathize with where she is at, yet that can seem long-winded at times. Is that best saved for a later, more quiet moment? Maybe some of the other communication that this couple heard us using seemed long-winded (i.e. "unassertive") and that is why the cousin made the comment re assertiveness? I am not so much concerned about what they think as I am about whether we are handling things in a way that is helping her (and not just to make that moment easier, but to help with future communication).I don't want to take up more space listing all the rings that happened during the trip that I found upsetting, suffice to say that their vibe was different - not as friendly or easygoing as usual, and at times quite stressed out. I felt like my kids were an annoyance to them and that they felt we were really screwing up as parents. I don't place a lot of stock in their opinions, but the experience has made me not want to be around them. I am not sure how to proceed from here. I feel like it would be awkward to have no contact, but the things we experienced (again, too many to innumerate here) made me want to keep my children away from them. They are family and it could easily get awkward with the wider family if we didn't figure out a good way of handling it. Any advice on this kind of scenario?Thanks,Puahinano
puahinano@...
Thanks so much to all of you for your thoughtful responses. I am just blown away by the fact that this forum exists and that I can have a concern, put it out there, and have people with years more experience at parenting share their thoughts and experiences with me. All of it was helpful and deeply appreciated.
It is SO true that sharing such close quarters with them was a bad idea. The first thing I thought when we left was that I would never put us in that position again. My husband and I were so excited about getting out of town and having a "family adventure" that we ignored some pretty glaring truths. I don't like it that I did that - chose to not focus on some things that might create a crappy environment for my kids because I wanted something so bad. We had had lots of good times with this family before this and didn't think the whole parenting thing would make such waves, but as someone noted, they don't even have a young child anymore.
This has been a big lesson in mindfulness and made me think about other times when this may have happened (certainly to a much lesser degree). I have lots of friends and acquaintances that have no qualms about putting their kids in positions that they know won't be that fun/enjoyable/healthy for them and they wonder why we are making all these "compromises" so that our kids can be comfortable and happy (and our family can have peace instead of conflict). It doesn't help me to learn to be more attuned to my kids and occasionally (like after this camping adventure) it makes me want to hide away in a cave. I think there may be some relationships in our life that naturally fall away the further we go down this path, but I don't want to encourage that artificially by making mistakes like I did with the camping thing. I am curious, though, for others: were there people that distanced themselves from your family when they saw the kinds of choices you were making in parenting?
I have been reading a lot lately and got a lot out of some of the recent threads ("Getting angry at people who are helping"), as well as some of the links to pages on Sandra's site. It seems like there is such a fine line with communication. I never thought about the difference between "Stop hitting me" and "Please stop hitting me" - I mean previously I didn't think/see that the latter left an opening for the child to NOT stop. When compared, I can see how the latter may seem "wimpy" or misleading (i.e. giving the false impression of a choice), but before this time I would have not thought twice about throwing in the "please" (Hmmm, not thinking twice just sounded like a big problem in general, actually... Or maybe it's not thinking carefully? Knee-jerk please?). It seems like not attaching "ok?" to the end of sentences if it is something there really is no choice about. Before reading this list I might have thought that such a distinction (the please vs no please on the above sentence) was kind of "picky", but I realize now that it is part of really thinking and speaking clearly. That is, admittedly, hard for me at times - a skill I feel I am from "mastering" but really want to work on because I know it is beneficial to ALL of my relationships. Is it a lack of being truly present in the moment? Old communication tapes from childhood on auto-play? If any of you can think of old discussions on the list or other resources that deal specifically with these kinds of subtle nuances in communication, I would love to know about them. It seems like they come up fairly often, though, so maybe I just need to keep reading :)
Thanks again,
Puahinano
Sandra Dodd
-=-We had had lots of good times with this family before this and didn't think the whole parenting thing would make such waves,-=-
I lost friends all along the way, when my kids were little. Most were the childless couples Keith and I had hung out with. They were gone quickly (though we picked up with some of them later when the kids were teens and older). One couple wanted children and couldn't have them (pituitary tumor in the female partner—the drugs to keep it from growing would harm a fetus, and stopping the drugs for nine months would let the tumor grow, and it was inoperable). So being around them with babies seemed cruel, and we needed to find new friends with children anyway. But we've been to their house twice in two months, and Keith's going over there to watch the super bowl. So time frames get longer, when you have a project coming up that's going to last 18 years. :-) Some of those friend and relatives may come back around, and it might not take as long as you fear.
(about picky details of communications)
-=- Is it a lack of being truly present in the moment? Old communication tapes from childhood on auto-play? If any of you can think of old discussions on the list or other resources that deal specifically with these kinds of subtle nuances in communication, I would love to know about them. -=-
Maybe it's me. Maybe it's because I'm that way, about subtleties of language.
http://sandradodd.com/semantics
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
http://sandradodd.com/words/
Sandra
I lost friends all along the way, when my kids were little. Most were the childless couples Keith and I had hung out with. They were gone quickly (though we picked up with some of them later when the kids were teens and older). One couple wanted children and couldn't have them (pituitary tumor in the female partner—the drugs to keep it from growing would harm a fetus, and stopping the drugs for nine months would let the tumor grow, and it was inoperable). So being around them with babies seemed cruel, and we needed to find new friends with children anyway. But we've been to their house twice in two months, and Keith's going over there to watch the super bowl. So time frames get longer, when you have a project coming up that's going to last 18 years. :-) Some of those friend and relatives may come back around, and it might not take as long as you fear.
(about picky details of communications)
-=- Is it a lack of being truly present in the moment? Old communication tapes from childhood on auto-play? If any of you can think of old discussions on the list or other resources that deal specifically with these kinds of subtle nuances in communication, I would love to know about them. -=-
Maybe it's me. Maybe it's because I'm that way, about subtleties of language.
http://sandradodd.com/semantics
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
http://sandradodd.com/words/
Sandra
Ali Zeljo
<I am curious, though, for others: were there people that distanced
themselves from your family when they saw the kinds of choices you
were making in parenting?>
For our family, the main reason friends distance themselves from us is
our children's free use of video games and television. Oh and
bedtimes! And the reason they avoid allowing their children to be
with us is that they have tons of fear around how unhealthy it is for
their children to play hours of video games or watch movies on a
television instead of playing outside. We know some children who are
not allowed to sleepover at our house because we don't enforce a
bedtime. The kids offer to do a bedtime so the kid will be allowed
and with some, this is enough, but not with all families.
We live on a street with a Waldorf school. Lots of families around us
go to this school where they sign an agreement to not use TVs, video
games or expose their children to pop culture. These children flock
to our house. Some of them gorge on food from the snack cabinet. A
few are almost obsessed with all the things they are forbidden to use.
Others look down on it and tell my kids that video games make you lazy
and stupid. My kids have learned what is allowed for each child in
our neighborhood. Mostly they end up playing kickball at the park
with neighborhood kids. There is an awkwardness when the kids end up
coming back to the house and some want to play a video game, but
others are not allowed.
As our kids grow older, we have found that our house is a popular hub.
Even parents who disagree with our lack of rules and control end up
allowing their kids to be at our house now because they don't care to
open their own homes to a group of kids. And, they want the time to
themselves to do their own thing, so they are willing to compromise
their values for the free childcare! I love it! I love knowing all
these kids well and providing a place for fun!
As your children grow older, they may desire more social interactions
and you may seek out more and more unschooling families to hang out
with. I have learned to maintain important (to me) friendships with
people who don't understand unschooling by just avoiding that in
discussions with them, and getting together without the kids whenever
it works for my family (which is rarely).
Ali
themselves from your family when they saw the kinds of choices you
were making in parenting?>
For our family, the main reason friends distance themselves from us is
our children's free use of video games and television. Oh and
bedtimes! And the reason they avoid allowing their children to be
with us is that they have tons of fear around how unhealthy it is for
their children to play hours of video games or watch movies on a
television instead of playing outside. We know some children who are
not allowed to sleepover at our house because we don't enforce a
bedtime. The kids offer to do a bedtime so the kid will be allowed
and with some, this is enough, but not with all families.
We live on a street with a Waldorf school. Lots of families around us
go to this school where they sign an agreement to not use TVs, video
games or expose their children to pop culture. These children flock
to our house. Some of them gorge on food from the snack cabinet. A
few are almost obsessed with all the things they are forbidden to use.
Others look down on it and tell my kids that video games make you lazy
and stupid. My kids have learned what is allowed for each child in
our neighborhood. Mostly they end up playing kickball at the park
with neighborhood kids. There is an awkwardness when the kids end up
coming back to the house and some want to play a video game, but
others are not allowed.
As our kids grow older, we have found that our house is a popular hub.
Even parents who disagree with our lack of rules and control end up
allowing their kids to be at our house now because they don't care to
open their own homes to a group of kids. And, they want the time to
themselves to do their own thing, so they are willing to compromise
their values for the free childcare! I love it! I love knowing all
these kids well and providing a place for fun!
As your children grow older, they may desire more social interactions
and you may seek out more and more unschooling families to hang out
with. I have learned to maintain important (to me) friendships with
people who don't understand unschooling by just avoiding that in
discussions with them, and getting together without the kids whenever
it works for my family (which is rarely).
Ali
CASS KOTRBA
-=- <I am curious, though, for others: were there people that distanced
themselves from your family when they saw the kinds of choices you
were making in parenting?>-=-
We started unschooling 2.5 years ago when my kids were 8 & 10. I did, & still do, tell people that we are homeschooling and generally leave it at that. They have a preconceived notion of what that is and I am happy to leave it at that. The people that I have opened up to about unschooling generally seem a bit overwhelmed and confused by what I am describing and there generally isn't a second conversation about it. I'm fine with that. So for us, this change has not effected the way other peers view us.
themselves from your family when they saw the kinds of choices you
were making in parenting?>-=-
We started unschooling 2.5 years ago when my kids were 8 & 10. I did, & still do, tell people that we are homeschooling and generally leave it at that. They have a preconceived notion of what that is and I am happy to leave it at that. The people that I have opened up to about unschooling generally seem a bit overwhelmed and confused by what I am describing and there generally isn't a second conversation about it. I'm fine with that. So for us, this change has not effected the way other peers view us.
I will second Ali's observation that most parents are happy to have free babysitting! Where we live the kids go to school M-Th so parents are often trying to figure out what to do with their kids on Fridays. We find that parents are eager to say "yes" to invitations on Fridays. My son has a friend who is usually home alone or with his younger brother on Fridays so he will often text me to see if he can come over (sometimes with the brother). This works out great for us. If my son wants him over I say "yes" and go pick him up. If Ben is not in the mood I just tell him that we're not available. Both of my kids prefer to have their friends over to our house anyway.
= Is it a lack of being truly present in the moment? Old communication tapes from childhood on auto-play? If any of you can think of old discussions on the list or other resources that deal specifically with these kinds of subtle nuances in communication, I would love to know about them. It seems like they come up fairly often, though, so maybe I just need to keep reading :)-=
Often it is a lack of being present or thoughtful, old tapes running through our minds. The nuance of language and the underlying thoughts they reveal is an ongoing topic. Words reveal the thoughts behind them and the reason that most of us hang around here is a desire to clarify our thinking. Often newcomers will think it's nit-picky and will feel offended but, as you pointed out, small changes can make a large impact. Anytime anyone posts something the more experienced members will point out word choices or ideas that miss the mark. It is not done with the intention of insulting the poster, it is done in a spirit of clarification and helpfulness. That's a big reason why people are asked to observe for awhile before posting. Clarity of thought is the goal.
A
CASS KOTRBA
Geez my computer is glitchy today! I was not done editing. This was supposed to be the final version:
-=- <I am curious, though, for others: were there people that distanced
themselves from your family when they saw the kinds of choices you
were making in parenting?>-=-
We started unschooling 2.5 years ago when my kids were 8 & 10. I did, & still do, tell people that we are homeschooling and generally leave it at that. They have a preconceived notion of what that is and I am happy to leave it there. The people that I have opened up to about unschooling generally seem a bit overwhelmed and confused by what I am describing and there generally isn't a second conversation about it. I'm fine with that. So for us, this change has not negatively effected the way others view us.
themselves from your family when they saw the kinds of choices you
were making in parenting?>-=-
We started unschooling 2.5 years ago when my kids were 8 & 10. I did, & still do, tell people that we are homeschooling and generally leave it at that. They have a preconceived notion of what that is and I am happy to leave it there. The people that I have opened up to about unschooling generally seem a bit overwhelmed and confused by what I am describing and there generally isn't a second conversation about it. I'm fine with that. So for us, this change has not negatively effected the way others view us.
I will second Ali's observation that most parents are happy to have free babysitting! Where we live the kids go to school M-Th so parents are often trying to figure out what to do with their kids on Fridays. We find that parents are eager to say "yes" to invitations on Fridays. My son has a friend who is usually home alone or with his younger brother on Fridays so he will often text me to see if he can come over (sometimes with the brother). This works out great for us. If my son wants him over I say "yes" and go pick him up. If Ben is not in the mood I just tell him that we're not available. Both of my kids prefer to have their friends over to our house anyway.
= Is it a lack of being truly present in the moment? Old communication tapes from childhood on auto-play? If any of you can think of old discussions on the list or other resources that deal specifically with these kinds of subtle nuances in communication, I would love to know about them. It seems like they come up fairly often, though, so maybe I just need to keep reading :)-=
Often it is a lack of being present or thoughtful, old tapes running through our minds. The nuance of language and the underlying thoughts they reveal is an ongoing topic. Words reveal the thoughts behind them and the reason that most of us hang around here is a desire to clarify our thinking. Often newcomers will think it's nit-picky and will feel offended but, as you pointed out, small changes can make a large impact. Like the idea of "have to" versus "choice", for example. It sounds like such a simple idea but it is actually quite profound. http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Anytime anyone posts something the more experienced members will point out word choices or ideas that miss the mark. It is not done with the intention of insulting the poster, it is done in a spirit of clarification and helpfulness. That's a big reason why people are asked to observe for awhile before posting. Clarity of thought is the goal & not simply comforting or reassuring others.
-Cass
A
CASS KOTRBA
-=- <I am curious, though, for others: were there people that distanced
themselves from your family when they saw the kinds of choices you
were making in parenting?>-=-
themselves from your family when they saw the kinds of choices you
were making in parenting?>-=-
After thinking about this, I realized that we only socialize with family or people who have children that get along with our children. This has just evolved naturally. There have been no "break ups" or dramatic friendship endings, that I can recall, even before unschooling. We were never strict parents and gravitated toward people who seemed to have the same type of vibe that we had. I don't recall anyone ever distancing themselves from us because of differences in our parenting style. We would have distanced ourselves.
Sandra Dodd
OH, picky, picky.....
-=-Often it is a lack of being present or thoughtful, old tapes running through our minds. The nuance of language and the underlying thoughts they reveal is an ongoing topic. Words reveal the thoughts behind them and the reason that most of us hang around here is a desire to clarify our thinking. Often newcomers will think it's nit-picky and will feel offended but, as you pointed out, small changes can make a large impact. Anytime anyone posts something the more experienced members will point out word choices or ideas that miss the mark. It is not done with the intention of insulting the poster, it is done in a spirit of clarification and helpfulness. That's a big reason why people are asked to observe for awhile before posting. Clarity of thought is the goal.-=-
There are a couple of things I would like to redirect here. I'm hoping CASS KOTRBA won't mind.
-=-Often it is a lack of being present or thoughtful, old tapes running through our minds. The nuance of language and the underlying thoughts they reveal is an ongoing topic. Words reveal the thoughts behind them ...-=-
When someone uses a very archaic phrase it's likely that they're thinking about what their older relatives would think of what they're doing. The voice of a granny comes through (or a great aunt, or a family put-down based on something, or a regional proverb/put-down that's in use in the community). Those are evidence of the person having turned off (or not yet turned on) her own discretion and thought, but trying to process her decisions through screens built of other people's thoughts.
-=-Words reveal the thoughts behind them -=-
Sometimes too many clumps of other people's phrases reveal a lack of thought. A resistance to thought. A rusty lack of practice with thought.
So when (sometimes) in a discussion such as this one (not that there are many like this one, but there have been a few), when someone is asked to rephrase, she doesn't seem to even know what "rephrase" means. Or if someone is asked why she has just indicated that she thinks her child is slow-minded or lazy, she denies having said anything of the sort.
-=-the reason that most of us hang around here is a desire to clarify our thinking.-=-
I don't think anyone can speak for "most of us." The reason the most thoughtful people hang around is probably that, though, plus a desire to help others who are just now trying to figure it all out—to help others untangle their own confused thoughts. Helping others is good for further clarifying our own ideas. So probably I've just totally agreed with CASS but there are others who hang around too.
Some people are here because they hope for strife. They like a good car wreck. They are spies for other discussions, and like to find things I've written (it seems to be me they're after) and take them to another discussion (there used to be three I know of, and I haven't heard of any recently, so maybe they've died out, honestly) where the statement is plunked down out of context and the readers there hoot and hop.
Some people are here after a while because they like the quality of the discussion, but they don't want to write anything. That's fine. Some wish the discussion was as busy as it used to be. I would wish so too, if yahoogroups' archives hadn't become clunky. They used to be elegant and hard to search. Now they're easy to search, but difficult to find the reference and read once you get in there.
This is a subtle complaint.
-=- Anytime anyone posts something the more experienced members will point out word choices or ideas that miss the mark. It is not done with the intention of insulting the poster, it is done in a spirit of clarification and helpfulness. That's a big reason why people are asked to observe for awhile before posting. Clarity of thought is the goal.-=-
It's true that pointing at things like "have to" and "teaching" and "I'm not a short-order cook" are done in a spirit of clarification and helpfulness, but help to the author of the unpolished words is sometimes secondary. If someone comes in all wild and prickly, and one of my first thoughts is that I'm going to throw him out if he doesn't settle (I've changed to "he" because a couple of recent melees have involved men), the dissection of the words might be done for the benefit of other readers, so that they can see how far from calm a mass of unclear thoughts (or schoolish thoughts, or negative thoughts) can take a person.
Sometimes the clarification is for the benefit of the person who wrote. Always, secondarily, it's for the benefit of everyone who's reading. And I always remember that new readers don't know who's who at all (nor do I, completely, nor can anyone, fully). Someone who joins today might read something that sounds good to her, and if the idea isn't clarified or rearranged in a more unschooling-useful way, she might print it out and put it on the fridge and say it came from the Radical Unschooling discussion.
I like for the good ideas to shine, and the bad ideas to be shined up, if possible. Or set aside as "please rephrase" or "that won't help."
Clarity of thought for someone who reads for a long time is good.
The goal for me is for people to come to a better understanding of unschooling. So clarity of thought is a tool to be discovered, built, honed, along the way to understanding unschooling.
That tool is useful elsewhere, though.
And the better and more clearly a person sees his or her journey toward better unschooling, the more easily it can be presented to others (friends, relatives, government officials, strangers).
Sandra
-=-Often it is a lack of being present or thoughtful, old tapes running through our minds. The nuance of language and the underlying thoughts they reveal is an ongoing topic. Words reveal the thoughts behind them and the reason that most of us hang around here is a desire to clarify our thinking. Often newcomers will think it's nit-picky and will feel offended but, as you pointed out, small changes can make a large impact. Anytime anyone posts something the more experienced members will point out word choices or ideas that miss the mark. It is not done with the intention of insulting the poster, it is done in a spirit of clarification and helpfulness. That's a big reason why people are asked to observe for awhile before posting. Clarity of thought is the goal.-=-
There are a couple of things I would like to redirect here. I'm hoping CASS KOTRBA won't mind.
-=-Often it is a lack of being present or thoughtful, old tapes running through our minds. The nuance of language and the underlying thoughts they reveal is an ongoing topic. Words reveal the thoughts behind them ...-=-
When someone uses a very archaic phrase it's likely that they're thinking about what their older relatives would think of what they're doing. The voice of a granny comes through (or a great aunt, or a family put-down based on something, or a regional proverb/put-down that's in use in the community). Those are evidence of the person having turned off (or not yet turned on) her own discretion and thought, but trying to process her decisions through screens built of other people's thoughts.
-=-Words reveal the thoughts behind them -=-
Sometimes too many clumps of other people's phrases reveal a lack of thought. A resistance to thought. A rusty lack of practice with thought.
So when (sometimes) in a discussion such as this one (not that there are many like this one, but there have been a few), when someone is asked to rephrase, she doesn't seem to even know what "rephrase" means. Or if someone is asked why she has just indicated that she thinks her child is slow-minded or lazy, she denies having said anything of the sort.
-=-the reason that most of us hang around here is a desire to clarify our thinking.-=-
I don't think anyone can speak for "most of us." The reason the most thoughtful people hang around is probably that, though, plus a desire to help others who are just now trying to figure it all out—to help others untangle their own confused thoughts. Helping others is good for further clarifying our own ideas. So probably I've just totally agreed with CASS but there are others who hang around too.
Some people are here because they hope for strife. They like a good car wreck. They are spies for other discussions, and like to find things I've written (it seems to be me they're after) and take them to another discussion (there used to be three I know of, and I haven't heard of any recently, so maybe they've died out, honestly) where the statement is plunked down out of context and the readers there hoot and hop.
Some people are here after a while because they like the quality of the discussion, but they don't want to write anything. That's fine. Some wish the discussion was as busy as it used to be. I would wish so too, if yahoogroups' archives hadn't become clunky. They used to be elegant and hard to search. Now they're easy to search, but difficult to find the reference and read once you get in there.
This is a subtle complaint.
-=- Anytime anyone posts something the more experienced members will point out word choices or ideas that miss the mark. It is not done with the intention of insulting the poster, it is done in a spirit of clarification and helpfulness. That's a big reason why people are asked to observe for awhile before posting. Clarity of thought is the goal.-=-
It's true that pointing at things like "have to" and "teaching" and "I'm not a short-order cook" are done in a spirit of clarification and helpfulness, but help to the author of the unpolished words is sometimes secondary. If someone comes in all wild and prickly, and one of my first thoughts is that I'm going to throw him out if he doesn't settle (I've changed to "he" because a couple of recent melees have involved men), the dissection of the words might be done for the benefit of other readers, so that they can see how far from calm a mass of unclear thoughts (or schoolish thoughts, or negative thoughts) can take a person.
Sometimes the clarification is for the benefit of the person who wrote. Always, secondarily, it's for the benefit of everyone who's reading. And I always remember that new readers don't know who's who at all (nor do I, completely, nor can anyone, fully). Someone who joins today might read something that sounds good to her, and if the idea isn't clarified or rearranged in a more unschooling-useful way, she might print it out and put it on the fridge and say it came from the Radical Unschooling discussion.
I like for the good ideas to shine, and the bad ideas to be shined up, if possible. Or set aside as "please rephrase" or "that won't help."
Clarity of thought for someone who reads for a long time is good.
The goal for me is for people to come to a better understanding of unschooling. So clarity of thought is a tool to be discovered, built, honed, along the way to understanding unschooling.
That tool is useful elsewhere, though.
And the better and more clearly a person sees his or her journey toward better unschooling, the more easily it can be presented to others (friends, relatives, government officials, strangers).
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I LOVE THIS:
-=- I did, & still do, tell people that we are homeschooling and generally leave it at that. They have a preconceived notion of what that is and I am happy to leave it at that. The people that I have opened up to about unschooling generally seem a bit overwhelmed and confused by what I am describing and there generally isn't a second conversation about it. I'm fine with that. -=-
YES, unschooling is homeschooling and if someone asks, just say homeschooling and let it go at that. They won't know the difference between school-at-home and other methods, and they probably don't WANT to know. If they ask another question, you can respond lightly. Let it be a conversation. Don't consider every question about why your kids aren't in school to be an invitation for you to present a long explanation. :-)
__________________________________________________________
This is from 2008, on Always Learning.
I hope to put it on my website. I've used the analogy at conferences, in talks, but was glad to find it in writing.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
-=-I do not use the term unschool except with other homeschoolers - I
know my family knows what we do - or should I say don't do as far as
curriculum because they never ask if we stop for the summer ;) -=-
I don't use the term unschooling except with other homeschoolers, and
I don't use "radical unschooling" except with other unschoolers.
It's like saying where you live. Depends where the other person
lives, right?
Kelli Traaseth's moving to Georgia. I don't need to know where in
Georgia (yet, unless I go to visit her). I'm in New Mexico. Georgia
is little and far away from my perspective.
If Kelli tells me the name of the town, that will be more
information, but more than I really need.
If Kelli's talking to someone who is IN Georgia, the name of the town
might not even be enough. If she's talking to someone in her
neighborhood (her new neighborhood-to-be), if they said "Where are
you going to live?" and she said "Georgia," they would think she was
slow in the head.
If someone who lives in Albuquerque asks me where I live I say "the
heights, near Juan Tabo and Candelaria." If they've lived in
Albuquerque for a long time, or they live near Juan Tabo and
Candelaria, I say "near Sandia Bowl," because that bowling alley has
been there a long time. They might have to think in map pictures to
think where Juan Tabo and Candelaria are, and the businesses at that
intersection have all changed, but Sandia Bowl hasn't (yet).
Did that sound like "blah blah blah" to those of you who live far
from Albuquerque? GOOD! Because it might help you to remember that
that's what it will sound like if someone asks why your kids aren't
in school and you start talking about unschooling.
If you're at a homeschooling conference, though, and someone asks
whether you have gone by the curriculum table for your free sample
disk yet, though, it's good and right to say "We're unschoolers."
Sandra
Sandra Dodd Jun 16, 2008
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AlwaysLearning/conversations/messages/35422
-=- I did, & still do, tell people that we are homeschooling and generally leave it at that. They have a preconceived notion of what that is and I am happy to leave it at that. The people that I have opened up to about unschooling generally seem a bit overwhelmed and confused by what I am describing and there generally isn't a second conversation about it. I'm fine with that. -=-
YES, unschooling is homeschooling and if someone asks, just say homeschooling and let it go at that. They won't know the difference between school-at-home and other methods, and they probably don't WANT to know. If they ask another question, you can respond lightly. Let it be a conversation. Don't consider every question about why your kids aren't in school to be an invitation for you to present a long explanation. :-)
__________________________________________________________
This is from 2008, on Always Learning.
I hope to put it on my website. I've used the analogy at conferences, in talks, but was glad to find it in writing.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
-=-I do not use the term unschool except with other homeschoolers - I
know my family knows what we do - or should I say don't do as far as
curriculum because they never ask if we stop for the summer ;) -=-
I don't use the term unschooling except with other homeschoolers, and
I don't use "radical unschooling" except with other unschoolers.
It's like saying where you live. Depends where the other person
lives, right?
Kelli Traaseth's moving to Georgia. I don't need to know where in
Georgia (yet, unless I go to visit her). I'm in New Mexico. Georgia
is little and far away from my perspective.
If Kelli tells me the name of the town, that will be more
information, but more than I really need.
If Kelli's talking to someone who is IN Georgia, the name of the town
might not even be enough. If she's talking to someone in her
neighborhood (her new neighborhood-to-be), if they said "Where are
you going to live?" and she said "Georgia," they would think she was
slow in the head.
If someone who lives in Albuquerque asks me where I live I say "the
heights, near Juan Tabo and Candelaria." If they've lived in
Albuquerque for a long time, or they live near Juan Tabo and
Candelaria, I say "near Sandia Bowl," because that bowling alley has
been there a long time. They might have to think in map pictures to
think where Juan Tabo and Candelaria are, and the businesses at that
intersection have all changed, but Sandia Bowl hasn't (yet).
Did that sound like "blah blah blah" to those of you who live far
from Albuquerque? GOOD! Because it might help you to remember that
that's what it will sound like if someone asks why your kids aren't
in school and you start talking about unschooling.
If you're at a homeschooling conference, though, and someone asks
whether you have gone by the curriculum table for your free sample
disk yet, though, it's good and right to say "We're unschoolers."
Sandra
Sandra Dodd Jun 16, 2008
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AlwaysLearning/conversations/messages/35422
CASS KOTRBA
-=- There are a couple of things I would like to redirect here. I'm hoping CASS KOTRBA won't mind. -=-
Ha ha - no, I don't mind. I welcome it. I love the insight that I gain from it & the possibility that other people might get something useful out of it. There is such a wealth of wisdom & insight available here - I would judge myself a fool if I didn't take full advantage of that opportunity. I am still fairly new, at 2.5 years in, and am still eager to learn. I am a different person in so many ways than I was when I started. That is true for each person in my family. Individually & as a group we are much more peaceful & happy, curious, inquisitive, confident & resourceful. I think "if it's this good now, how much better could it get if I continue to bring these ideas deeper into my life?"
Of course, it was presumptuous of me to try to say why other people are here. I myself am here for a variety of reasons. This, however, is not one of them:
-=- Some people are here because they hope for strife. They like a good car wreck. They are spies for other discussions, and like to find things I've written (it seems to be me they're after) and take them to another discussion (there used to be three I know of, and I haven't heard of any recently, so maybe they've died out, honestly) where the statement is plunked down out of context and the readers there hoot and hop. -=-
Why waste the energy? If you don't agree with the information that is discussed here, that's fine. It's not for everybody. Why continue to put your energy into something that you don't agree with? Wouldn't it be more productive to move on to ideas that do appeal to you?
Personally, I have found this group to be an invaluable asset for my family and myself - and I've never received a bill! People give generously of their time and their insight and it is such a cool thing to be a part of!
-=- The goal for me is for people to come to a better understanding of unschooling. So clarity of thought is a tool to be discovered, built, honed, along the way to understanding unschooling. -=-
For me, reading here frequently has helped me a great deal with clarity. I also find that going through the experience of actually putting my thoughts into writing helps me with clarity. Sometimes I write my thoughts down in an email for this list and never send it. Often I end up answering my own questions to my own satisfaction. When I do send in a question or observation it takes my understanding to a deeper level, and I like that. That's the main reason that I post. It is a wonderful added bonus to me if someone else learns something from that process.
-Cass