Sandra Dodd

I wrote this to someone I've know since she was two years old. She has two children, and is somewhat antagonistic with them. She posted on her page that she felt like she wasn't as good a mom as she could be, and she got "support" in the form of "stop, you're great, we're all great moms, you're awesome, don't worry" so I wrote on the side with some links.

She wrote nicely, and said she wasn't aware that she comes across as resentful. Most people here would have spotted it and mentioned it immediately, if she had written here. :-) But she's not planning to homeschool, though she was homeschooled. She married into more academic people, I guess (someone she met in college (university level, for non-US readers, but it's "an institute of technology"—specialty things). ANYway...

My summary was:
___________________

Every time you speak or act, you build or break. The softer you can be, the more whole they will be.

Thanks for reading what I sent.

"Strong willed" is an insult. It's a wedge between you. "Stubborn" is worse. He's not easily manipulated? That's good. He's brave and strong in his self-knowledge? That's hugely important for a man, so help that blossom rather than trying to undo it.
_______________________

I figure there's a Just Add Light quote in there.

For anyone who doesn't know what I just wrote, here: http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com

Sandra

Robin Stevenson

Language is so interesting. Sandra, I was surprised to see you write "'strong-willed' is an insult" as I have always seen it, and used it, as a distinctly positive trait-- much like determined or persistent. Out of curiosity, I just asked my ten year old, "Hey, if someone described a person as strong-willed would you think they were saying something bad or good about them? Or neither?" and he said, "Strong-willed? That's a good thing." But I think often the implied meaning and connotation is apparent from the larger context of the speaker's (or writer's) words, as in the situation you describe here. 

I read an article online yesterday that looked people's political views (liberal/conservative) and how those correlated with their ideas about what qualities they saw as important to pass on to their children (just something someone had posted on Facebook- not worth looking up). Some qualities did vary with political views, of course- for example, those who said they were conservative were more likely to value hard work, obedience and religious beliefs, while self-identified liberals put emphasis on empathy and helping others.

But what struck me were two qualities that were at the bottom of the list for both groups- curiosity and persistence. Both are qualities I value highly and want to nurture in my son (and in myself, for that matter) but I can imagine that they are also, for some fairly traditional parents, challenging. A child who is full of curiosity and bursting with questions about everything-- and who doesn't give up easily-- may be harder to parent for someone who has the idea that children should be compliant and obedient. And I think the same is probably true of strong-willed children. 

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was surprised to see you write "'strong-willed' is an insult" as I have always seen it, and used it, as a distinctly positive trait-- much like determined or persistent.-=-

Are you unfamiliar with the belief (fading, I hope) that part of parenting was "to break a child's will"?

In that context, a "strong-willed" child is going to be hard to break.  He is sinful.  He should NOT have "a will" in the first place, but should be obedient.

When a mother is frustrated with her child and says he is strong-willed and stubborn, that is not a positive comment.

-=-But what struck me were two qualities that were at the bottom of the list for both groups- curiosity and persistence. Both are qualities I value highly and want to nurture in my son (and in myself, for that matter) but I can imagine that they are also, for some fairly traditional parents, challenging. -=-

I'm not sure I "value persistence."  Curiosity, yes—bigtime.  Parents who aren't open will stifle a child's openness.  And some of that is inherited—"openness to new experiences" is heritable (so if both parents are, it's more likely a child is, and if two parents aren't, the child might not be very curious or enthusiastic either.

"Persistence" as in "finish what you start"?
As in pester and bug and insist and focus on what one wanted that isn't happening?    "To persist" doesn't have a very positive connotation.  The DEnotation is to keep on, to continue, but the connotation (tone and tradition of it) is to do it even though other people wish you would STOP doing it (whatever it is).

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

> "To persist" doesn't have a very positive connotation. The DEnotation is to keep on,
> to continue, but the connotation (tone and tradition of it) is to do it even though other
> people wish you would STOP doing it (whatever it is).

That might depend where it's being used. I've only heard persistent used positively in the East. Occasionally I've heard the backhanded complement, "My he's very persistent, isn't he?" type of statement. But most often it's used to mean persevering.

Joyce

Robin Stevenson

Sandra wrote: "I'm not sure I "value persistence."... "Persistence" as in "finish what you start"? As in pester and bug and insist and focus on what one wanted that isn't happening? "To persist" doesn't have a very positive connotation. The DEnotation is to keep on, to continue, but the connotation (tone and tradition of it) is to do it even though other people wish you would STOP doing it (whatever it is)."

I was thinking of persistence as knowing what you want to accomplish and not being easily discouraged- not giving up, persevering, not being easily defeated by obstacles. Determination, focus, perseverance.  I see it in my kid as he puzzles through a challenging level in a computer game, or thinks for weeks on end about a complex idea. I need it as I rewrite a book for the fourth or fifth time. I tell my writing students who are pursuing publication that they will need persistence as they deal with rejections.  

Perhaps, in a small child, persistence might sometimes be expressed as bugging and pestering. And sometimes parents might wish a child would stop doing a particular thing and see their persistence as negative. 

This conversation is making me think about how many qualities that are often seen as strengths in adults are under-valued or seen in a negative light in children. When someone uses a word like "persistence" or "strong-willed" about their child, meaning it as a criticism, I can see that it could be useful to suggest a different word, like "determined. I think it could also be useful to point out that some of the qualities that can be challenging to parents of young children can also be the same qualities that may be useful to the child as he or she matures. I know that this has been a perspective that has been helpful for me as a parent. 

Sandra Dodd

-=- I think it could also be useful to point out that some of the qualities that can be challenging to parents of young children can also be the same qualities that may be useful to the child as he or she matures. I know that this has been a perspective that has been helpful for me as a parent. -=-

Of course.   I did say to her (quoted in the first post in this topic):  ""Strong willed" is an insult.  It's a wedge between you.  "Stubborn" is worse.   He's not easily manipulated?  That's good.  He's brave and strong in his self-knowledge?  That's hugely important for a man, so help that blossom rather than trying to undo it."


Finding another term that is positive for adults or children either is even better, because when a word gains a negative connotation we can't just wish it away.  We can't say "'mutt' doesn't necessarily refer to a mixed-breed dog," or "'skank' doesn't necessarily mean that a woman is of questionable morals and hygiene."    It DOES mean that.

I suppose those examples are more parallel to each other than to "persistence."  
The fact is I was quoting a statement made by a mother who was not finding it easy to see her child in a fully positive light, and that term wasnt helping any more than "stubborn" was.  In her estimation, he was persistently stubblrn.

We have continued our correspondence, and the young mother has written: 

"We often say how his traits are things we want him to have as an adult. He's very smart, observant, independent, adventurous and creative. I've been looking at your website a lot this week, and borrowed your books from my mom, they've been encouraging and helpful. "

Sandra