Sandra Dodd

This is once removed, but I thought it was worth bringing here anyway. I'm quoting the friend of the friend:

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I have a question I want to ask for a friend and although it's not exactly unschooling, I would like to ask on the Always Learning group because it is the best place I have ever gotten thoughtful input from. But I thought I'd run it by you first. I just re-read the guidelines for posting over there (I haven't posted in a long time!) and I think it falls under helping people live more peacefully together.

Background: my friend and her husband are divorced. It was/is ugly. I am close with her and I think I've inspired her to try and live more peacefully with her kids. She asked me today how to handle situations where kids are pushing boundaries without punishing - especially when the two parents are handling things differently. (Her examples were her daughter wanting LOTS of chocolate and when they have to leave and daughter doesn't want to).

They are not unschoolers. My question - how have families dealt with two very different parenting philosophies? It has to be difficult for the children. Would it be better if my friend would do time-outs for "consistency"? (of course my gut feeling is no, but she is getting flak that she let's them "do whatever they want". Does anyone know of resources specifically for families with divorced parents?

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Sandra the messenger

Sandra Dodd

For unschoolers who are not divorced, I want to say: Find ways to strenghten and maintain your marriage.

For anyone who is divorced, unfortunately: You will never have the luxury of simple agreement of two parents. Trust is gone. Antagonism is likely.

It can be nearly cruel to encourage someone to lean toward unschooling or peaceful parenting if she/he doesn't have full custody, and can't really decide unilaterally how the children will be "raised."

To add more antagonism to an already strained system might be worse for the children than traditional punishments.

Sandra

Ali Zeljo

Hi, I have a few friends in similar situations. Sometimes the court steps in and forces parents to agree on a method.

My advice would be for your friend to focus on her relationship with her daughter and not on how specifically to handle each situation. The closer she feels to her daughter, the better things will go in general. If their relationship is solid, she can explain how things are because of the divorce and they can come up with a solution together. Even if the solution is that she can choose her foods with mom, but with dad it's better to just go with his preferences and not say "but mom lets me" because it could end up being decided by a mediator. It's a sad situation. And perhaps her daughter is too young to understand or too stressed to agree to disagree.

Warmly,
Ali

D. Regan

More kindness, even if it's only from one parent, is a good thing. But in the chocolate example, the kinder thing may be to restrict the chocolate for now, if she considers that her daughter will have trouble making sense of abundant chocolate, in the context of the other parent's views and their family's history.

It's important that the mother focus on where her children are at and what is likely to help them at this point in time. Taking care to make any changes slowly and mindfully. The kids have probably had a lot of upheaval already. They need their mother not to be hastily taking on new parenting ideas.

They need her to be as calm as she can in the face of the turmoil. I would focus on thinking of what will help her children best in these circumstances, rather than thinking of changing parenting practices.

Debbie.

On 05/10/2013, at 9:25 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> This is once removed, but I thought it was worth bringing here anyway. I'm quoting the friend of the friend:
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> I have a question I want to ask for a friend and although it's not exactly unschooling, I would like to ask on the Always Learning group because it is the best place I have ever gotten thoughtful input from. But I thought I'd run it by you first. I just re-read the guidelines for posting over there (I haven't posted in a long time!) and I think it falls under helping people live more peacefully together.
>
> Background: my friend and her husband are divorced. It was/is ugly. I am close with her and I think I've inspired her to try and live more peacefully with her kids. She asked me today how to handle situations where kids are pushing boundaries without punishing - especially when the two parents are handling things differently. (Her examples were her daughter wanting LOTS of chocolate and when they have to leave and daughter doesn't want to).
>
> They are not unschoolers. My question - how have families dealt with two very different parenting philosophies? It has to be difficult for the children. Would it be better if my friend would do time-outs for "consistency"? (of course my gut feeling is no, but she is getting flak that she let's them "do whatever they want". Does anyone know of resources specifically for families with divorced parents?
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Sandra the messenger
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Joyce Fetteroll


On Oct 4, 2013, at 7:25 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

She asked me today how to handle situations where kids are pushing
boundaries without punishing - especially when the two parents are handling things differently.

If there are no boundaries, then she can't push against them.

That said, she's likely to seek out boundaries to push to irritate her parents as much as they irritated her with the divorce.

Be gentle and patient. The foundation has been ripped from her life. It will take years before it feels less wobbly.

Rather than being the door that swings open and shut on what she wants, be a partner in finding safe, doable, respectful ways to get what she wants. Be the person she trusts she can go to for ideas when she wants something. So, what does she want?

Her examples were her daughter wanting LOTS of chocolate

If she can have as much chocolate as she wants, then she won't want LOTS of chocolate. She'll only want as much as she wants. 

It's complicated by the fact that chocolate has been limited to less than she wants. So until she feels she can have as much chocolate as she wants whenever she can, she's going to ask for more than she wants. She has a hole that's been building.

It's complicated by the fact that her life has been torn apart without regard to her feelings. Or at least that's how it feels to her. And that's how she'll respond for a good long while. It's more relationship building to work with that feeling rather than arguing that she's wrong. Think of it as like a broken leg. Those feelings are broken. They won't heal faster by being told she's wrong to feel that way. It will just make it take longer.

Focus on being really sweet with her. Focus on doing together things she enjoys, that she finds comforting. Snuggle. Watch a movie on the couch together. Don't try to make her happy. Create a warm, comforting environment around her for her to heal in.

Maybe don't have chocolate candy in the house for now. Buy a bar when at the store with her. Have syrup or hot chocolate mix. Make chocolate cupcakes and muffins and pudding and cookies. Make foods together that are chocolaty but take longer to eat. (Don't just buy them. Make them. It's an act of service which is one of the love languages. Make them together when she feels like it. It's connecting.)

when they have to leave and daughter doesn't want to

There are a lot of suggestions here:


The most important part to remember is, as Pam Sorooshian has said, she's not giving her mom a hard time, she's *having* a hard time. Being involved in something fun and then not having control over when it ends is going to be frustrating. 

how have families dealt with two very different parenting philosophies? It has to be difficult for the children

Kids can handle different approaches to parenting. They know different places, different friends' homes have different rules. Divorced kids may become more objective about parenting since they'll see that parenting practices are choices parents make rather than a monolithic "This is the way *we* parent," that kids of intact families have. 

Honestly, I think a divorce is harder than different parenting philosophies. There's going to be anger, resentment, feelings of betrayal, distrust. That's going to be reflected in kids' behavior. They're going to react more to the parent than the parenting. The reaction will be amplified by parenting choices that feel to them like, "What I want for you is more important than what you want." It's just a big echoey reminder of what was done to them in the divorce.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-It's important that the mother focus on where her children are at and what is likely to help them at this point in time. Taking care to make any changes slowly and mindfully. The kids have probably had a lot of upheaval already. They need their mother not to be hastily taking on new parenting ideas. -=-

Yes.  Good ideas, Debbie.

When parents are in competition (officially with social workers or a judge, or just among the kids), going too far can backfire.  If one person makes a wild departure and starts being extreme about anything at all, they can lose some or all of their access to the children.  

Sandra

<m.r.bailey@...>

I am a divorced mother that unschools my kids.  My ex used to be totally supportive of unschooling but over the last few years has gone more and more back to the authoritarian way he was raised.  So, my kids have a lot of freedom and respect when they are with me and much less so when they are with their dad or his family.  They are older (13 and 10) so they've grown up understanding that some members of the family (their paternal grandparents and aunt) have no respect towards children and that they will be treated very differently when they are around.  My daughter chooses not to spend very much time around them or her dad as a result.  My son usually chooses to avoid the relatives but spends most weekends with his dad, follows his rules at his house and then comes home and vents to me about it for awhile and moves on.


Regarding the specific examples you asked about, at my house my kids eat whatever and whenever they want.  I always try to have foods on hand that they like and request.  I will inform them of potential problems, like if they are eating close to when dinner is planned or that if they eat that 6th banana of the day they may not feel so good.  Ultimately, they make the choice to wait or feel yucky.  They expect a kitchen that is closed to all snacking and meals only at designated times where you must clean your plate to earn dessert at their dad's or his family's homes.  Sometimes they will bring their own snacks to eat privately then.  As for leaving when someone doesn't want to, I always give ample warning so they can mentally prepare and try to be as flexible as possible.  It's not really an issue anymore at their ages but when they were younger I always tried to help them say goodbyes and look forward to the next time while finding a way to make leaving more worthwhile like doing something fun when we got home or stopping somewhere afterwards.


They understand that the vast majority of people do not radically unschool and have not come from homes where children are treated compassionately and respectfully.  They think that's sad but they don't expect the rest of the world to change just for them.  They know they can always come to me for a soft landing when the world is a hard place.


~Michelle



---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

This is once removed, but I thought it was worth bringing here anyway. I'm quoting the friend of the friend:

------------------------------------------------

I have a question I want to ask for a friend and although it's not exactly unschooling, I would like to ask on the Always Learning group because it is the best place I have ever gotten thoughtful input from. But I thought I'd run it by you first. I just re-read the guidelines for posting over there (I haven't posted in a long time!) and I think it falls under helping people live more peacefully together.

Background: my friend and her husband are divorced. It was/is ugly. I am close with her and I think I've inspired her to try and live more peacefully with her kids. She asked me today how to handle situations where kids are pushing boundaries without punishing - especially when the two parents are handling things differently. (Her examples were her daughter wanting LOTS of chocolate and when they have to leave and daughter doesn't want to).

They are not unschoolers. My question - how have families dealt with two very different parenting philosophies? It has to be difficult for the children. Would it be better if my friend would do time-outs for "consistency"? (of course my gut feeling is no, but she is getting flak that she let's them "do whatever they want". Does anyone know of resources specifically for families with divorced parents?

------------------------------------

Sandra the messenger

<plaidpanties666@...>

It can help to think about what's going to make life easier for your kids in terms of transitioning from one home to the next and in terms of having easier relationships in both homes. That doesn't necessarily mean "being on the same page" in terms of parenting practices - making your own relationship with your kids more stressful won't necessarily make the relationships in the other home Less stressful! Kids can and do adapt to very different expectations in different environments - but they have an easier time doing it when they're not going back and forth between environments hostile to each other.


One of the hardest things in a divorce is stepping back from your antagonism toward the other parent enough to help your kids have the best possible relationship with that person - but it's also the best, kindest, most generous thing you can do for your child. It can help to make the transition softer and smoother when you can support your kids in looking forward to their time in their other home and looking for ways to support their relationship with their other parent(s). All of that can happen in addition to being a gentler, more mindful parent in  your own home - in fact, it's Part of being gentler and more mindful with your kids.


>>She asked me today how to handle situations where kids are pushing boundaries without punishing - especially when the two parents are handling things differently.<<


Is punishing the kids going to make relationships better and happier in Either home? Is making your relationship more antagonistic going to make things easier for Anyone? 

Re-think some of those boundaries - what do they do? What are they for? How do they help the people in your family get along? A lot of boundaries exist to make things easier for parents... and then end up creating conflict as kids "push the boundaries" which isn't easier at all. Even when your limits are reasonable and actually do make things easier, it can help a whole lot to talk about the reasons you've set them. It helps to humanize you and makes your thought processes more transparent to your kids  - even when they don't agree with you, they'll have a better chance of thinking about your reasoning. Be willing to listen to their reasoning too! If they poke holes in your logic, re-consider your position! It will set them up to be more willing to honor the spirit of your concerns if they know you aren't going to be bullheaded about the details. And they'll take some of that willingness over to their other family, too. 


>>Her examples were her daughter wanting LOTS of chocolate<<

All that being said, one of the effects of a kid going back and forth between an unschooling home and a non-unschooling home is that deschooling becomes a sort of continual process. That makes moving away from rules and limits much slower and more complicated. You don't have the luxury of dropping a previously established rule all at once because of the havoc it's going to create in two different households - with your kids caught in the middle. Go slowly.


>>and when they have to leave and daughter doesn't want to<<


Leave where? Why do you "have to" leave? 

My daughter doesn't do well with lots of quick transitions - going someplace for an  hour or two isn't comfortable for her. If your daughter is similar, don't plan to go someplace for a short amount of time - plan for her to have enough time to settle in and enjoy herself and not feel like the rug gets pulled out from under her feet just when she's having fun. If you plan ahead in that way, you're not stuck negotiating "five more minutes...okay ten more minutes" - there's no limit to push and she's not "getting away with something" - it's all part of the plan. 




---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

This is once removed, but I thought it was worth bringing here anyway. I'm quoting the friend of the friend:

------------------------------------------------

I have a question I want to ask for a friend and although it's not exactly unschooling, I would like to ask on the Always Learning group because it is the best place I have ever gotten thoughtful input from. But I thought I'd run it by you first. I just re-read the guidelines for posting over there (I haven't posted in a long time!) and I think it falls under helping people live more peacefully together.

Background: my friend and her husband are divorced. It was/is ugly. I am close with her and I think I've inspired her to try and live more peacefully with her kids. She asked me today how to handle situations where kids are pushing boundaries without punishing - especially when the two parents are handling things differently. (Her examples were her daughter wanting LOTS of chocolate and when they have to leave and daughter doesn't want to).

They are not unschoolers. My question - how have families dealt with two very different parenting philosophies? It has to be difficult for the children. Would it be better if my friend would do time-outs for "consistency"? (of course my gut feeling is no, but she is getting flak that she let's them "do whatever they want". Does anyone know of resources specifically for families with divorced parents?

------------------------------------

Sandra the messenger