Karen

I am a very introverted person. I do like being with people. I prefer smaller groups, but I occasionally enjoy larger gatherings for a short time. I have difficulty with small talk. I'm a bit awkward. And, I'm shy. My son, Ethan, is very much like myself, and I'm having a bit of anxiety about it. It's private anxiety, but I'm sure he can sense it too.

For many years, I experienced quite a bit of bullying as a young girl in school because of my ways. I believe this is largely contributing to my anxiety with Ethan. When I see him acting in ways that are similar to the ways I was as a child, I worry that he is not going to be liked. I worry that kids will be mean to him. I don't think that worry is good for him or me.

Last night we were chatting together as we often do. We had been at a local park day with a great group of kids earlier that day. Ethan did not join in with the kids at first because he was waiting for a close friend of his to come. He doesn't know the kids from our park day well, because he hasn't been interested in going to group gatherings. Lately, however, he has said yes when I've asked him if he wanted to go, but I think it is largely because he has a good friend who goes as well.

Anyway, I tried to encourage him to join in with the other young people, but he didn't want to. So, we waited together on the bench with a couple other moms. I offered to go for a walk with him, play on the playground, swim in the lake, but he wanted to sit with us. I gave him my phone. He played with it a bit, but was just as happy to hop, skip, jump and twirl nearby. I could feel myself wishing he would join the other kids, though I didn't suggest that again. I did, however, go over to see what they were up to for a little bit.

Later his friend arrived. They played in the lake for good long while. Then, they both joined the group of kids on a slack line one of the mom's had thoughtfully brought along with her. Ethan really enjoyed that. He did, however, do his own thing there too. He's very independent.

So...back to chatting. We were talking about the day a bit, and I asked him why he didn't want to join in with the other kids. He said it was because he felt shy. I said, "Just be yourself." He said, "Well, part of being myself is being shy." That caused me to pause. I gave him a big hug and we went on to play a video game together for an hour or two.

But, I've been thinking all night. I think I'm stuck and I'm hoping some people will have suggestions for me. I need to see past my own past experiences to fully support where he is and what he needs for himself, and from me, in social situations.

Thanks in advance. (Sorry if this is a bit wordy.)

Karen.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

It maybe because you have come to believe being shy is something that needs to be fixed and that it is not a desired
characteristic for someone to have.

Everywhere people get the  message that being shy is a fault. That people need to be able to go up infront of a huge group of people and
be outgoing and be able to make friends and talk to anyone.

I am like that now but was not as a child. Some people will always be shy and that is OK. Some people are private. Some people take longer to make friends or just talk to someone they do not know. 

Do you think you should be different than who you are? Do you feel  you miss something? Is that why you are worried?


 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 

Brandi Yates

Thanks for sharing.  I am shy as well.  I think it would help if you looked at all the great benefits of being a shy or introverted person.  You could make a list then instead of having a negative feeling about being introverted you would immediately see everything positive about it.  I dont have a list but it has helped me knowing that there are huge benefits to being shy.  I want to read this book:  http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/dp/0307352153/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378916568&sr=1-1&keywords=quiet+the+power


On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Karen <semajrak@...> wrote:
 

I am a very introverted person. I do like being with people. I prefer smaller groups, but I occasionally enjoy larger gatherings for a short time. I have difficulty with small talk. I'm a bit awkward. And, I'm shy. My son, Ethan, is very much like myself, and I'm having a bit of anxiety about it. It's private anxiety, but I'm sure he can sense it too.

For many years, I experienced quite a bit of bullying as a young girl in school because of my ways. I believe this is largely contributing to my anxiety with Ethan. When I see him acting in ways that are similar to the ways I was as a child, I worry that he is not going to be liked. I worry that kids will be mean to him. I don't think that worry is good for him or me.

Last night we were chatting together as we often do. We had been at a local park day with a great group of kids earlier that day. Ethan did not join in with the kids at first because he was waiting for a close friend of his to come. He doesn't know the kids from our park day well, because he hasn't been interested in going to group gatherings. Lately, however, he has said yes when I've asked him if he wanted to go, but I think it is largely because he has a good friend who goes as well.

Anyway, I tried to encourage him to join in with the other young people, but he didn't want to. So, we waited together on the bench with a couple other moms. I offered to go for a walk with him, play on the playground, swim in the lake, but he wanted to sit with us. I gave him my phone. He played with it a bit, but was just as happy to hop, skip, jump and twirl nearby. I could feel myself wishing he would join the other kids, though I didn't suggest that again. I did, however, go over to see what they were up to for a little bit.

Later his friend arrived. They played in the lake for good long while. Then, they both joined the group of kids on a slack line one of the mom's had thoughtfully brought along with her. Ethan really enjoyed that. He did, however, do his own thing there too. He's very independent.

So...back to chatting. We were talking about the day a bit, and I asked him why he didn't want to join in with the other kids. He said it was because he felt shy. I said, "Just be yourself." He said, "Well, part of being myself is being shy." That caused me to pause. I gave him a big hug and we went on to play a video game together for an hour or two.

But, I've been thinking all night. I think I'm stuck and I'm hoping some people will have suggestions for me. I need to see past my own past experiences to fully support where he is and what he needs for himself, and from me, in social situations.

Thanks in advance. (Sorry if this is a bit wordy.)

Karen.


Lynn Williams

Hi Karen,

I am like you, shy, don't like large groups, no good at parties.  I was bullied all through school.  I have also held down a career for 20 years, have a family, morgage and friends.  2 years ago aged 40 I was diagnosed with Aspergers, yes it was a shock but not a surprise once I started to read about it.

I'm still me :-) In fact now I understand 'me' a bit more life is easier.

My son also has a Dx of High Functioning Autism.

Do you want to chat?

Lynn


On 11 September 2013 16:48, Karen <semajrak@...> wrote:
 

I am a very introverted person. I do like being with people. I prefer smaller groups, but I occasionally enjoy larger gatherings for a short time. I have difficulty with small talk. I'm a bit awkward. And, I'm shy. My son, Ethan, is very much like myself, and I'm having a bit of anxiety about it. It's private anxiety, but I'm sure he can sense it too.

For many years, I experienced quite a bit of bullying as a young girl in school because of my ways. I believe this is largely contributing to my anxiety with Ethan. When I see him acting in ways that are similar to the ways I was as a child, I worry that he is not going to be liked. I worry that kids will be mean to him. I don't think that worry is good for him or me.

Last night we were chatting together as we often do. We had been at a local park day with a great group of kids earlier that day. Ethan did not join in with the kids at first because he was waiting for a close friend of his to come. He doesn't know the kids from our park day well, because he hasn't been interested in going to group gatherings. Lately, however, he has said yes when I've asked him if he wanted to go, but I think it is largely because he has a good friend who goes as well.

Anyway, I tried to encourage him to join in with the other young people, but he didn't want to. So, we waited together on the bench with a couple other moms. I offered to go for a walk with him, play on the playground, swim in the lake, but he wanted to sit with us. I gave him my phone. He played with it a bit, but was just as happy to hop, skip, jump and twirl nearby. I could feel myself wishing he would join the other kids, though I didn't suggest that again. I did, however, go over to see what they were up to for a little bit.

Later his friend arrived. They played in the lake for good long while. Then, they both joined the group of kids on a slack line one of the mom's had thoughtfully brought along with her. Ethan really enjoyed that. He did, however, do his own thing there too. He's very independent.

So...back to chatting. We were talking about the day a bit, and I asked him why he didn't want to join in with the other kids. He said it was because he felt shy. I said, "Just be yourself." He said, "Well, part of being myself is being shy." That caused me to pause. I gave him a big hug and we went on to play a video game together for an hour or two.

But, I've been thinking all night. I think I'm stuck and I'm hoping some people will have suggestions for me. I need to see past my own past experiences to fully support where he is and what he needs for himself, and from me, in social situations.

Thanks in advance. (Sorry if this is a bit wordy.)

Karen.


Sandra Dodd

-=- I need to see past my own past experiences to fully support where he is and what he needs for himself, and from me, in social situations. -=-

Karen, you've probably seen this page, but for the many new listmembers, I'll put it out here.

Sometime when you're not on the way to a social situation at all, but you're able to be side by side (like working a puzzle or riding in the car), maybe ask him to make suggestions, if he ever has any, about what you can do to make things comfortable and easy for him in groups.

But I would word it so that no answer or a later answer (after some thought, or months) is fine.

Maybe what he needs is for you to be there for him to sit by.  With toddlers, pushing them away or walking away can make them clingy (so said Dr. Sears and La Leche League literature, when my boys were and it seemed to hold true), even older kids, even young adults, might need to wait a while before making a move.

Sandra

Meredith Novak

 It might help to think about what "shy" means outside of social anxiety. It's often a kind of learning style for social situations - a need to observe people and group interactions for a time before making decisions about getting involved. If someone is shy in that way, it's not only unhelpful to suggest they go get involved with someone new, it's counterproductive - they won't learn effectively in the middle of a new social situation and will end up feeling even more awkward and inept.

Introversion can also involve having a very large, complex "inner life" which makes getting to know new people stressful on a whole different level - are these other people going to Understand my imaginary worlds or make fun of me for them? My brother and I actually used to have a "test" for new friends, when we were fairly young. We lived across the street from a forest preserve that we imagined contained a magical castle. If our new prospective friends could "see" the imaginary castle we knew they were trustworthy in a certain way - they could be trusted to share our imaginative play. Otherwise, we knew to keep conversation and play strictly based in the real world.
 
---Meredith

Meredith Novak

WRT introversion and autism/aspergers - there's an emerging theory that introversion is actually the "normal" end of the autism spectrum, largely fueled by the fact that strong introversion is indistinguishable from aspergers/high functioning autism. Jennifer Grimes is the researcher heading this movement.
 
---Meredith

Colleen

****I worry that he is not going to be liked. I worry that kids will be mean to him****

Is he liked by other kids?  Are kids mean to him?  Do they react negatively to him?

I am going to generalize a bit about unschoolers (and other homeschoolers) in the rest of my response - because though what I'm writing has been true in my experience, I'm talking about unschooling when it's done well and works well - and not about people who use the Word unschooling while leaving their kids to their own devices, to figure things out and muddle through :-) 

One of the most fabulous things (my opinion) about the homeschooling/unschooling park days we've been to, the unschooling groups we've joined locally, etc. is that the kids Aren't mean.  They don't tease - they don't ostracize - they don't bully.  They, more than any schooled kids I've ever seen gathered in one place, seem to simply accept each other for who they are - quirks and all - I think, in large part, because they are free to pick and choose from amongst the group that's in attendance, playing with who they'd like to play with, doing what they'd like to do.  So kids who might not play well together don't need to - kids who don't like the same thing don't need to pretend they do - etc.  What a difference from school groupings, where kids are forced to associate and to figure out how to be together for long periods of time whether they like each other or not, whether they're tired and hungry or not, etc.!

Having been to public school all my school years, and then taught in a variety of preschool programs while I was in college and in the years immediately following, I find it seriously remarkable, what happens in groups of non-schooled kids vs what happens in groups of schooled kids.

Even preschoolers in a classroom setting seem to notice and single out those who are Different - who are quiet - who dress their own way or play their own way and don't fit immediately and easily into The Group.  And the older those kids get, the more Different seems to become Negative in the eyes of other kids.

But in kids who've never been to school - who've never struggled for pecking order within a group of same-age peers - I find it remarkable (and fantastic!) that, at least in the groups we've participated in, that just doesn't seem to be what happens.

Not all the kids we know get along perfectly or are best friends - not at all.  But they don't pick on and ostracize and act unpleasantly toward those they don't have as much in common with - they seem to let each other Be and let each other go their own way and do their own thing.

I remember a day early on when we started going to beach days with one of our local groups.  My son *always* wore his floppy green hat to beach days (still does :-) as he doesn't like sun in his eyes, and prefers a hat to sunglasses).  One of the little girls he'd just met a few weeks earlier walked up to him, and said "what's with the hat?"  My heart thumped and started to sink a little as I remembered my own School Days and the way comments like that sounded when I was on the receiving end, but immediately was relieved when my son said (without the least bit of self-consciousness) "I like it" - and the child looked closely at him, smiled, and said "oh - ok!" as she skipped away.

In my experience, a comment like that was someone looking to start trouble.  In my son's experience, a simple question was a simple question.  And the other child, whatever her internal motivation for the question, appeared from the outside to have just been curious - no malice intended.

I remember that day whenever I'm inspired to worry for a moment about whether my son "fits in" or whether he's "different."  We're all different - even if those of us who went to school didn't always get the best, most positive messages about our differences :-)  But our unschooled kids aren't living in that world - aren't dealing with what happens when kids are grouped together in big classes and on big playgrounds at recess, left to mostly fend for themselves socially and with their peers.  Our unschooled kids have us as sounding boards, and as navigational partners as they make their way through the social waters.  And that's pretty awesome, I think.  I can't wait to see how our kids will be as adults - adults whose experiences will be different than ours - whose experiences allow them to hear "what's with the hat?" as a friendly inquiry and not a challenge to their fashion sense or anything else :-)

Colleen  

Ted Ernst Sarvata

My 5 year old boys have been enjoying taking capes and masks to park days. They've played with lots of kids they don't know that way. 

We've also broken the ice by bringing a ball we can play catch with. Usually that game has some gravity that pulls other kids in. 

My kids haven't yet wanted to try to engage in other kids' games. 


On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Colleen <3potatoes@...> wrote:

 

****I worry that he is not going to be liked. I worry that kids will be mean to him****


Is he liked by other kids?  Are kids mean to him?  Do they react negatively to him?

I am going to generalize a bit about unschoolers (and other homeschoolers) in the rest of my response - because though what I'm writing has been true in my experience, I'm talking about unschooling when it's done well and works well - and not about people who use the Word unschooling while leaving their kids to their own devices, to figure things out and muddle through :-) 

One of the most fabulous things (my opinion) about the homeschooling/unschooling park days we've been to, the unschooling groups we've joined locally, etc. is that the kids Aren't mean.  They don't tease - they don't ostracize - they don't bully.  They, more than any schooled kids I've ever seen gathered in one place, seem to simply accept each other for who they are - quirks and all - I think, in large part, because they are free to pick and choose from amongst the group that's in attendance, playing with who they'd like to play with, doing what they'd like to do.  So kids who might not play well together don't need to - kids who don't like the same thing don't need to pretend they do - etc.  What a difference from school groupings, where kids are forced to associate and to figure out how to be together for long periods of time whether they like each other or not, whether they're tired and hungry or not, etc.!

Having been to public school all my school years, and then taught in a variety of preschool programs while I was in college and in the years immediately following, I find it seriously remarkable, what happens in groups of non-schooled kids vs what happens in groups of schooled kids.

Even preschoolers in a classroom setting seem to notice and single out those who are Different - who are quiet - who dress their own way or play their own way and don't fit immediately and easily into The Group.  And the older those kids get, the more Different seems to become Negative in the eyes of other kids.

But in kids who've never been to school - who've never struggled for pecking order within a group of same-age peers - I find it remarkable (and fantastic!) that, at least in the groups we've participated in, that just doesn't seem to be what happens.

Not all the kids we know get along perfectly or are best friends - not at all.  But they don't pick on and ostracize and act unpleasantly toward those they don't have as much in common with - they seem to let each other Be and let each other go their own way and do their own thing.

I remember a day early on when we started going to beach days with one of our local groups.  My son *always* wore his floppy green hat to beach days (still does :-) as he doesn't like sun in his eyes, and prefers a hat to sunglasses).  One of the little girls he'd just met a few weeks earlier walked up to him, and said "what's with the hat?"  My heart thumped and started to sink a little as I remembered my own School Days and the way comments like that sounded when I was on the receiving end, but immediately was relieved when my son said (without the least bit of self-consciousness) "I like it" - and the child looked closely at him, smiled, and said "oh - ok!" as she skipped away.

In my experience, a comment like that was someone looking to start trouble.  In my son's experience, a simple question was a simple question.  And the other child, whatever her internal motivation for the question, appeared from the outside to have just been curious - no malice intended.

I remember that day whenever I'm inspired to worry for a moment about whether my son "fits in" or whether he's "different."  We're all different - even if those of us who went to school didn't always get the best, most positive messages about our differences :-)  But our unschooled kids aren't living in that world - aren't dealing with what happens when kids are grouped together in big classes and on big playgrounds at recess, left to mostly fend for themselves socially and with their peers.  Our unschooled kids have us as sounding boards, and as navigational partners as they make their way through the social waters.  And that's pretty awesome, I think.  I can't wait to see how our kids will be as adults - adults whose experiences will be different than ours - whose experiences allow them to hear "what's with the hat?" as a friendly inquiry and not a challenge to their fashion sense or anything else :-)

Colleen  

JJ

A different perspective:

In Chinese culture, being reserved is more valued while being outgoing could be frown upon, especially for girls. We were constantly reminded to be "conservative" ie: listen, not talk, not laugh aloud (exposing your teeth). So growing up in that environment, being introvert was praised. Japan has similar culture. 

When I came to North America, things are the opposite. It makes me realize being ourselves is the best option. 

Best

Jihong

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 11, 2013, at 10:48 AM, "Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:

 

I am a very introverted person. I do like being with people. I prefer smaller groups, but I occasionally enjoy larger gatherings for a short time. I have difficulty with small talk. I'm a bit awkward. And, I'm shy. My son, Ethan, is very much like myself, and I'm having a bit of anxiety about it. It's private anxiety, but I'm sure he can sense it too.

For many years, I experienced quite a bit of bullying as a young girl in school because of my ways. I believe this is largely contributing to my anxiety with Ethan. When I see him acting in ways that are similar to the ways I was as a child, I worry that he is not going to be liked. I worry that kids will be mean to him. I don't think that worry is good for him or me.

Last night we were chatting together as we often do. We had been at a local park day with a great group of kids earlier that day. Ethan did not join in with the kids at first because he was waiting for a close friend of his to come. He doesn't know the kids from our park day well, because he hasn't been interested in going to group gatherings. Lately, however, he has said yes when I've asked him if he wanted to go, but I think it is largely because he has a good friend who goes as well.

Anyway, I tried to encourage him to join in with the other young people, but he didn't want to. So, we waited together on the bench with a couple other moms. I offered to go for a walk with him, play on the playground, swim in the lake, but he wanted to sit with us. I gave him my phone. He played with it a bit, but was just as happy to hop, skip, jump and twirl nearby. I could feel myself wishing he would join the other kids, though I didn't suggest that again. I did, however, go over to see what they were up to for a little bit.

Later his friend arrived. They played in the lake for good long while. Then, they both joined the group of kids on a slack line one of the mom's had thoughtfully brought along with her. Ethan really enjoyed that. He did, however, do his own thing there too. He's very independent.

So...back to chatting. We were talking about the day a bit, and I asked him why he didn't want to join in with the other kids. He said it was because he felt shy. I said, "Just be yourself." He said, "Well, part of being myself is being shy." That caused me to pause. I gave him a big hug and we went on to play a video game together for an hour or two.

But, I've been thinking all night. I think I'm stuck and I'm hoping some people will have suggestions for me. I need to see past my own past experiences to fully support where he is and what he needs for himself, and from me, in social situations.

Thanks in advance. (Sorry if this is a bit wordy.)

Karen.

Karen

>>>>>  It might help to think about what "shy" means outside of social anxiety. It's often a kind of learning style for social situations - a need to observe people and group interactions for a time before making decisions about getting involved. If someone is shy in that way, it's not only unhelpful to suggest they go get involved with someone new, it's counterproductive - they won't learn effectively in the middle of a new social situation and will end up feeling even more awkward and inept.<<<<<

This really applies to Ethan, and always has. From the time he could walk and talk, he would hang back a while and observe - sometimes a long while - before he would find someone he felt he could relate to enough to join in. If he didn't find that someone he would leave without joining in.

He still will do this. I worry about the hanging back and watching because I worry (again with the worry) that people will find that either creepy or antisocial. So, then I feel the need to say something (gently) like, "Hey, why don't you go say hi." I'm not sure where to give a gentle push and where to allow him move forward at his own pace. I think if he was a close friend, I still would say something encouraging. Maybe that isn't helpful in any relationship. I'm really not sure unfortunately. Understanding social interactions is not my strength.


>>>>> Introversion can also involve having a very large, complex "inner life" which makes getting to know new people stressful on a whole different level - are these other people going to Understand my imaginary worlds or make fun of me for them?<<<<<

This too hits the mark. Ethan's imaginary world is huge and ongoing. It's was causes him to skip and twirl wherever he goes. His closest friends are people who also have big imaginary worlds. I did not consider that it might be a factor in his companion choice. Maybe that is something he is looking for when he is observing people. Not sure, but a lightbulb just went off for me here. The friends that Ethan plays with for the longest are ones that will take a break from games or crafts or whatever to spend some time in imagination. Then it's back to the activities, seemingly refueled. If he can't get that imagination break, he gets tired, and is done playing. Very interesting, Meredith. Thank you.

belinda dutch

Hi Karen,

My son is home educated because he does not enjoy large - or sometimes even small - social groups. They caused him a lot of stress. He is eloquent and great fun when he is with special friends and families that he trusts. Our instinct was to worry about this, as we are constantly led to believe that in our society we should be 'out there', and sociable and 'go getting'. Especially boys. My husband would want to 'toughen him up', but I resisted this, sensing it would cause a huge gulf of mistrust, of both his family and the world. So here we are, unschooling and loving it… and I am internally thanking my son (and this forum!) for opening up this opportunity for the whole family.

It sounds like you are really recognising the need to respect your son and his need for observation and quiet, and that is wonderful, he is blessed. But you cannot quite be at rest with it in yourself. Is that because you were not fully accepted as 'shy' when you were younger? Were you constantly expected to be different? What helped me to understand my son better was a book called 'The Highly Sensitive Child' by Elaine N. Aron. She worked with highly sensitive adults and found that one thing they seemed to have in common was being misunderstood as children. So she wrote a book to help us parent these children better! It was so helpful to me, and is helping me to accept him as he is - which is very different to me! I won't go into it here, but whilst recognising that there are overlapping traits with high sensitivity and Aspergers she maintains they are not the same.

An anecdote: I watched my boy at a big social gathering recently. He is 11, and we were camping in a big field with lots of other families that we know fairly well. He spent a lot of time reading in his tent while the other children were rushing about chucking water over each other, teasing each other, playing havoc, and breaking the PA system! Just as I was worried that he was unliked, couldn't fit in, social outcast… all the cliches.. and I was having to tie myself down so that I didnt go and try to coax him out of his tent, he had enough of his book, stepped out and stepped right into the game. Fine. Giggling, totally accepted. Bossing them about a bit in fact! Then just as it turned unkind or chaotic, he quietly stepped out again, back into his tent. He did this a few times. I was in awe of his self possession to be honest and am so glad I didn't go in and try to get him to socialise on terms that weren't his own. I wish I had had that level of self knowledge at that age. Any age…

A retired primary school teacher friend of mine is convinced that the increased diagnosis of Aspergers and Autism these days is due to relentless overstimulation and expectation of sensitive children. Lets let them go at their own pace and trust… watch… wait… enjoy!

Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 12, 2013, at 11:41 AM, Karen wrote:

I worry about the hanging back and watching because I worry
(again with the worry) that people will find that either creepy or
antisocial. So, then I feel the need to say something (gently)
like, "Hey, why don't you go say hi." 

Two things. 

First, if you're motivated to act because other people might think he's creepy and antisocial, you're actions say to him that he's being creepy and antisocial. Even if you don't say it out loud. Even if you think you don't think so.

Second, better to be motivated by helping him do what he wants to do.

Maybe, "Hey, why don't you go say hi," *might* be useful for his needs! But the motivation will affect what ideas you come up with. (Though to be honest, "Hi!' isn't the problem. It's what to do after "Hi!" that's the problem! ;-))

The set of ideas that pop into your head for "Need to prevent us both from being embarrassed," will be different from, "Need to help him feel as comfortable as he can."

As others have said, introverts and shy people need time to study social situations. Pushing him before he's ready lets him know you think his feelings are wrong, that he shouldn't be listening to his feelings.

You might suggest he pay the most attention to the kids who make friends the easiest. If someone does something that makes him feel comfortable, what was it? If someone does something that makes him uncomfortable, what was that?

It might be hard as an introvert (and a child) for him to generalize from the specific. He will need a lot more swirling of ideas to make sense of than an extroverted child will. You could use TV shows to prompt ideas. Like saying, "That makes me feel good when someone does that in real life."

Joyce

Meredith Novak

 
>>Then just as it turned unkind or chaotic, he quietly stepped out again, back into his tent. He did this a few times.<<

It often helps my daughter, Mo, to have an "escape" of some kind. If we're out, the car works well most of the time. If that's not feasible, having something to "hide behind" like a book or game or laptop is helpful, especially if I'm close enough to gently "shoo away" people who think she needs to be "drawn out".
 
>>but whilst recognising that there are overlapping traits with high sensitivity and Aspergers she maintains they are not the same<<

That's one of the problems with diagnoses like autism - they're based on symptoms rather than causal factors. High sensitivity can produce the symptoms of autism - and sometimes that means that it's possible to lessen the sensitivity and in doing so lessen the symptoms.
 
>>A retired primary school teacher friend of mine is convinced that the increased diagnosis of Aspergers and Autism these days is due to relentless overstimulation and expectation of sensitive children.<<
If anything, school kids are understimulated, not over, so that doesn't seem likely... unless she's talking about over-scheduling.
 
What there Has been is an increasing push to diagnose any child who doesn't do well in a school environment - which is useful in a school environment so a kid isn't simply labeled as "BAD".
 
A generation ago, hardly any kids were "autistic" because it wasn't really on anyone's mind as a concept - autistics were thought of as "idiot savants" of the "Rainman" variety. It was only with the creation of "autism spectrum" that autism became something other than a serious disability and since then kids who previously would have received other labels and diagnoses (everything from retardation and shyness to ADD) have become autistic (or aspergers, but the new DSM categorized aspergers as high functioning autism). It's like... before the '70s no-one ever got PTSD - they got shell shock or battle fatigue.
 
What that has to do with unschooling is that more parents are opting out of school with a lot of additional baggage in the form of labels which mostly exist as tools to get better services within the current school system.  At home what's important is for parents to look for ways to meet kids' needs - which could include a need for less noise, less talk (most kids could use less talk from parents and more listening!), more time, more opportunities to focus... learning about introversion, sensitivity and other issues can help parents figure those things out by broadening your understanding of human needs and responses.
 
---Meredith

Pam Sorooshian

One of my regrets is that I didn't "get" fully how to support the person my child IS as opposed to supporting her in being the way I thought she'd be happier.

That was a convoluted sentence but I reread it and it does say what I wanted to say.

I'm pretty outgoing and two of my three daughters are extroverted. Roxana is quite introverted. She's not shy. She's happy doing stuff on her own - she has an extremely rich inner life. She's an intellectual. Her mind is very very active. She gets exhausted by being around other people. She doesn't do small talk comfortably or enjoy it much. Those who know her know she's delightful! But she needs her alone time a LOT. And she has no big urge to have a lot of friends hanging around all the time - she wants to hang out in groups just once in a while and usually not for long periods of time. I used to worry that she didn't have enough friends. I'd push her to go to activities when she didn't really want to go. I know that I had the best of intentions but I'm sure I made her feel like there was something wrong with being the way she was. I have changed so much! I SO appreciate the way she is now. And she's embraced it and is learning to live in a way that suits her nature. 

I know the whole introvert/extrovert thing can be carried too far - most of us are not just one or the other all the time, but those who are not at all gregarious and outgoing can so very often be seen as lacking something in this society. But my introverted daughter is not at ALL lacking, she's amazing as everybody who gets to know her (and not that many people do) will agree. And as a young adult, she's socially quite adept - downright charming! :)

-pam

<almadoing@...>



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

 

>>A retired primary school teacher friend of mine is convinced that the increased diagnosis of Aspergers and Autism these days is due to relentless overstimulation and expectation of sensitive children.<<
If anything, school kids are understimulated, not over, so that doesn't seem likely... unless she's talking about over-scheduling.
 ---Meredith

-=-=-=-=-=-

I wonder if this teacher means the tendency to make the classroom group-based and interactive, a heaven for the bossy, or dominant or extrovert child but a nightmare for the sensitive. 

When I was at school we all sat at desks that faced the front, took it in turns to talk etc. Bad enough being in a group of 30+ people but fairly quiet and organised. Now the average classroom has people arranged around small tables, working in groups, calling attention to the teacher, lots of noise and chaos - a sensory nightmare for a sensitive child. I think had I been at school now instead of then I'd have had a breakdown. My 11 year old and I watched a tv documentary about a class reaching their end of primary school (his school year) here in the UK and he had his hands over his ears and was mega stressed just Watching this chaotic environment. 

Alison

Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 14, 2013, at 10:15 AM, <almadoing@...> <almadoing@...> wrote:

Now the average classroom has people arranged around small tables, working in groups

Some US classrooms look like that. Kat's 2nd grade classroom did. (The classroom was beautiful, full of plants and stuff to explore. With very little time allowed to explore it! She lasted 2 months.) 

I think in the US, though, ever since the "No Child Left Behind" idea was pushed, *so* much time is devoted to teaching to the tests. The constant bombardment of stuff to memorize and test taking will be tough on kids who get labeled autistic and ADD. :-/

Joyce

Karen

>>>>> The set of ideas that pop into your head for "Need to prevent us both from being embarrassed," will be different from, "Need to help him feel as comfortable as he can."<<<<<

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you! I think this is one big place I'm stuck - kind of in between the two needs you stated above. I end up going in loops, wanting to support him, and then wanting to protect us both from embarrassment, but in the end, I'm really not doing either very effectively. Seeing that helps me so much. Thank you.

Pam Sorooshian


On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 7:15 AM, <almadoing@...> wrote:
When I was at school we all sat at desks that faced the front, took it in turns to talk etc. Bad enough being in a group of 30+ people but fairly quiet and organised. Now the average classroom has people arranged around small tables, working in groups, calling attention to the teacher, lots of noise and chaos - a sensory nightmare for a sensitive child.>>


My oldest daughter is VERY extroverted, but that kind of classroom environment with all the grouped kids shoulder-to-shoulder around tables and everybody doing different things and lots and LOTS of stimulation was too exhausting for her. She had a meltdown pretty much every single day in the car on the way home. And she had to find ways to withdraw during the day. She used to sit in the leg-space of the teacher's big metal desk. She remembers putting her cheek against the cool metal to help calm herself down. 

My 2nd daughter, who is quite introverted, was also in a classroom like that for a while but her teachers were super accommodating it was amazing - she was allowed to just leave the classroom absolutely any time  she wanted to go to the media center and find a book and sit quietly in a corner by herself. And they had outdoor space and she could take a book and go sit outside alone, too. Also the classroom was very large and they had lot of cuddly little corners kind of cut off from the rest of the classroom where she could sit or lie down on cushions. So for a kid who was a reader there were plentiful opportunities to escape into a book or put on earphones and listen to books. 

Families can be hard in the same ways, though, if they are not careful about creating environments that accommodate all the various temperaments of members of that family. 

-pam


Cheri Tilford

I am highly introverted, as well as shy (though less shy as an adult than I was as a child). I also have a very rich and fascinating inner world that I share with Very Few people. I've always had difficulty bridging the gap between my inner world and the world outside, and i really hate small talk, which is one of the reasons I much prefer to be alone or with a few select people, preferably not too many at once.

As a child and teenager I was often mocked for being quiet, reserved, absorbed in my own private activity while others were active around me, or for being socially awkward. I Need to watch situations before getting involved. Sometimes, I choose to watch the whole time, and I quite enjoy myself that way. Others will comment "you're so quiet!" or "you don't talk much, huh?", as if maybe I wasn't aware I was being quiet. Usually these comments are from people I know care about me, though they don't really understand me, but my reaction (which I keep to myself) ranges from irritation to anger, depending on my mood and how recently somebody else said the same thing. Those comments generally come from a place of insensitivity, or a misunderstanding of introversion and/or shyness, or a mistaken belief that "you need to get involved!"

My mom is very perceptive and sensitive and always had my back as a kid (she was also very shy). I don't remember her ever suggesting I do something she knew might make me uncomfortable - instead she would ask if I wanted to try something, without showing discomfort that I might say no. That was a really big help for me.

My daughter is 2.5, and shows some very similar tendencies and preferences for social interaction (or lack thereof) as I did. Caring family members have expressed concern for how she'll "learn to socialize" without school. I point out that not only did school Not help me learn to socialize, it caused me to feel rejected, flawed, insecure, and at times utterly despondent and lonely. There were many times, especially during my torturous middle school years, that I wished I didn't have to leave my house or worry about making friends. I like to think if I'd been unschooled I could have done what I needed. My mom wishes she'd known about other options than sending me into the social hell I found at school.

In college I waited tables. That's when I really learned how to socialize. It was the first time I was truly motivated. In school I so desperately wished to be left alone that I wasn't actually motivated (nor did I have the energy) to learn how to be "normal", i.e. extroverted. But when my take home pay depended on it, I learned the skills I needed fast, and got really good at it.

Now as an adult I so value my introversion and the gifts it has given me as an artist, empath, and friend. I have no desire to be different than I am, and the fact that my mom felt the same way the whole time I was growing up was immeasurably helpful.


cheri