<char@...>

Wondering what words of wisdom you wonderful people might have for me about my 2 boys ages 12 and 9. We have always unschooled, though we have surely evolved as the boys have grown. I have come to be much more relaxed about my concerns over whether they will fare well without the kind of direction I was programmed to believe was necessary.


When they were little they used the computers very little and I felt good about that. They instead chose to fill most of their time with games, books, drawing, creating and lots and lots of physical activity. These days, they are on the computers almost all the time. For the most part, I'm okay with that because they are able to still engage with us and aren't like zombies in front of the screen and they are creating and engaging online, too. However, they are getting much, much less physical activity. So when they get off the computers, they both act like crazy animals. They scream, run, yell, push, wrestle, tickle non stop. They drive each other, plus my husband and I nuts when they act like that. They are truly unable to control themselves often in public because they are more or less hyperactive. Again this is something that is new for us, only happening in the last year since their computer usage has ramped up. Previously, we would talk about social graces and what seemed appropriate and they would be fine with it. Now they run through stores, crash into people, fling their bodies about, etc unable to stop even when we point out how inappropriate their behavior is. I am certain it is because of the extensive computer usage and therefore less physical activity.

Additionally, they are both involved in many other physical activities. They play soccer, swim, play water polo, ride bikes to town often, play frisbee, etc. They are not sedentary kids with no physical activity. I just think they need more than they are getting during the course of the day.

So, I guess I'm wondering what ideas, thoughts, comments some of you might have. I don't like the idea of telling them they can only play online "x" amount of time or at "x" hour in the day because that flies in the face of my unschooling beliefs that the kids need to be in control of their own lives and time. We have always as a family discussed what seems appropriate and previously when it was pointed out that they didn't respond well in life to too much computer time, they self regulated, but that doesn't seem to be happening now.

Words of wisdom? Anyone? Anyone?

Sandra Dodd

You've been on this discussion for less than a month, so I'm going to guess that before now you were getting your unschooling advice and ideas elsewhere. I hope you get lots of feedback, but I want to suggest a couple of things that will help you clarify your thinking about unschooling, and help you see where others here might be coming from with their responses.

-=-I don't like the idea of telling them they can only play online "x" amount of time or at "x" hour in the day because that flies in the face of my unschooling beliefs that the kids need to be in control of their own lives and time. -=-

"In control" is a problem. http://sandradodd.com/control
This will help you immensely, too, I think:
Unschooling is not “Child-Led Learning” by Pam Sorooshian
http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/

-=-We have always as a family discussed what seems appropriate and previously when it was pointed out that they didn't respond well in life to too much computer time, they self regulated, but that doesn't seem to be happening now.-=-

"Self-regulation" is about rules and control.
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation

Sandra

<thurman.chelsea@...>

There are many different desk configurations that allow people to be more active while using computers.Here are a few examples off the top of my head: a standing desk, a swiss ball instead of a chair, a regular chair with a foot bike, I've even seen someone with a treadmill set up in front of a standing desk. 

Karen

>>>>>However, they are getting much, much less physical activity. So when they get off the computers, they both act like crazy animals.<<<<<

Have you ever seen artists working in a group studio space? When they are really excited about what they are doing, they can act like "crazy animals". Football players after an exciting game can look a lot like crazy animals. People dancing to their favourite song can really look like crazy animals. Rather than see it as a product of something negative, try looking at it from a different angle. How do you *know* that it's because they are less physically active, that they jump around? Couldn't it be because they are more excited?

>>>>>They scream, run, yell, push, wrestle, tickle non stop.<<<<<

Nearly every day, several times a day, for a few months Ethan would ask me to tickle, which really meant gentle wrestling. We would climb on the biggest bed and tickle, wrestle, laugh, and yell for a good long period of time. I didn't know what that was about for Ethan, but I agreed to engage with him because it seemed to be something that he needed to do. Interestingly, shortly after our wrestling period waned, he began to ask the most deep and intriguing questions. So began what I called our mental wrestling period! ;-) Who knows? Maybe one activity lead to another. Maybe not. But, for sure, it all seemed very meaningful and helpful to Ethan.

>>>>>They drive each other, plus my husband and I nuts when they act like that.<<<<<

Ethan and I have a rule when we get crazy. When one person is done, we're done for now. It's usually me who is done first, but not always. Sometimes there's a disappointed "Awww!" But, Ethan knows we're not done forever, so he seems to understand. Make room for the fun kind of craziness in your lives.

Last night Ethan and I were watching tv. He seemed a bit blue...maybe bored, so I said, "Wanna tickle?" He said he didn't feel like it. Then I noticed that he seemed to perk up a bit after. Maybe it was just that thought that helped. Again, I don't know for sure. But being open to whimsy and generous in judgement has proven to be a very useful tool in my relationship Ethan.

>>>>>They are truly unable to control themselves often in public because they are more or less hyperactive.<<<<<

Before you take them into a crowd, maybe give some extra time to take them to a park to run around. Play tag with them. Let them get the sillies out before you engage with others. Then, *before* you go in public, remind them that people don't like to be banged around and probably don't like yelling. Ask them to respect others. Don't give a long speech. Maybe say, "When we go inside, don't run around and yell. People don't like that."

>>>>>So, I guess I'm wondering what ideas, thoughts, comments some of you might have.<<<<<

In our home, there is a small trampoline behind Ethan's desk. When he gets up he hops for a bit, then usually runs or skips to wherever he's headed. Often he stops at the kitchen door to jump and swing from the pull-up bar. Outside, we have a larger trampoline, that hasn't been seeing much use lately. Ethan has been favouring the slack lines I put up between the trees of our front yard. In the living room, we have a piece of exercise equipment. Sometimes the kids run on that while watching tv. My husband and I do that too.

These are some of the options in our home. They change as we change. We all like to be somewhat physically active, so these things keep it interesting for us when we don't feel like going outside.

>>>>>We have always as a family discussed what seems appropriate and previously when it was pointed out that they didn't respond well in life to too much computer time, they self regulated, but that doesn't seem to be happening now.<<<<<

Did they really "self regulate", or were they responding to your fears?

What is "self regulate" anyway? What does it look like?

A couple months ago I discovered a new series of fluffy fiction books that I had never read before. In one month I read probably more than 20 of these books! I stayed up waaaaay to late reading. I carried my ipad around with me everywhere, sneaking in sentences whenever I could get away with it. I was perpetually tired. It was new and I was captivated! I've moved on, but I wouldn't say I self regulated. Would it have been better if I had allotted myself only one book a week? Would it have been worse if I had kept on reading so voraciously? Is sitting and reading for hours on end more desirable than sitting at the computer? Is standing and painting better?

Some questions to ponder. Reflecting on these things helped me come to a deeper appreciation of my son's own interests. It also helped me more clearly understand and support how he learns best.

Sandra Dodd

I found a quote that seemed useful for this topic:

-------
New Trust and far-reaching effects

I finally let go of my control issue around TV and video. In its place I found trust which created a deepening of love and respect in my relationship with my son and my family and everything else in my life. It is amazing how far reaching the effect was. Just wanted to share this. —Dede
------

http://sandradodd.com/gettingit

When I read the original post it seemed the mom wasn't participating with the boys and wasn't really sure what they were doing on the computer, so being cranky about them being on the computer, she was blaming it for other things. Seems more to be a disconnect, a lack of partnership.

Sandra

<fairiedust66@...>

I have also been unchooling for my son's entire life. He has never attended school.


My son is 13 and adores video games. He games all day. He intends on becoming a video game programmer. So, I understand where your children are coming from.


It sounds to me that your sons are doing great. Sometimes we have mind blocks when it comes to our children. My husband has had this same concern. Our son went from playing with toys, watching tv, running around everywhere to closing his door and gaming all day. (Around 12 years old).  My was very upset about the amount of computer time our son enjoyed. He wanted us to make him exercise. He wanted limits. I simply didn't agree and saw no need for any of this. I've never viewed the computer time as an issue. My son is loving, charming, caring, kind and a wonderful kid. He just chooses to immerse himself in video games. That's his choice and I support him. So, I reasoned that we should not act hastily and wait and see what happened.  My husband has seen over time that the video game and computer usage hasn't changed our son. He's not morphed into someone different.We used the wait and see, watch and listen technique and my husband saw for himself that his desire for control and limits was unnecessary. 


You say that your sons do enjoy physical activity and state that they do many different things aside from the games. Sounds good to me.


The activity they exhibit in public sounds normal to me as well. They are expressing themselves and being kids. Screaming, running, yelling and wrestling with one another sounds great! How fun! 


Do you think their behaviors are changing due to age and not game usage, but you are placing the blame on game usage?


I see my job as a parent is to get my son from point A (birth) to point B (adulthood and beyond). If my son is happy and healthy I'm doing my job. 


Without talking about control or limits, you could talk to your sons about doing things out of the house more. Ask them if they'd like to visit a new museum or a new park. Have a conversation about their games, ask them to talk about what's been happening in them. I engage my son in great, lengthy conversations about his gaming. I might not fully understand what he's doing in the games, but he loves talking to me about them. This is a fun activity that does get him out of his room and that he enjoys greatly. 


Remember to relax, watch, listen, and take a deep breath. By allowing your children the freedoms of unschooling, you are fostering their long term health and happiness. They will be fine. 



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

Wondering what words of wisdom you wonderful people might have for me about my 2 boys ages 12 and 9. We have always unschooled, though we have surely evolved as the boys have grown. I have come to be much more relaxed about my concerns over whether they will fare well without the kind of direction I was programmed to believe was necessary.

When they were little they used the computers very little and I felt good about that. They instead chose to fill most of their time with games, books, drawing, creating and lots and lots of physical activity. These days, they are on the computers almost all the time. For the most part, I'm okay with that because they are able to still engage with us and aren't like zombies in front of the screen and they are creating and engaging online, too. However, they are getting much, much less physical activity. So when they get off the computers, they both act like crazy animals. They scream, run, yell, push, wrestle, tickle non stop. They drive each other, plus my husband and I nuts when they act like that. They are truly unable to control themselves often in public because they are more or less hyperactive. Again this is something that is new for us, only happening in the last year since their computer usage has ramped up. Previously, we would talk about social graces and what seemed appropriate and they would be fine with it. Now they run through stores, crash into people, fling their bodies about, etc unable to stop even when we point out how inappropriate their behavior is. I am certain it is because of the extensive computer usage and therefore less physical activity.

Additionally, they are both involved in many other physical activities. They play soccer, swim, play water polo, ride bikes to town often, play frisbee, etc. They are not sedentary kids with no physical activity. I just think they need more than they are getting during the course of the day.

So, I guess I'm wondering what ideas, thoughts, comments some of you might have. I don't like the idea of telling them they can only play online "x" amount of time or at "x" hour in the day because that flies in the face of my unschooling beliefs that the kids need to be in control of their own lives and time. We have always as a family discussed what seems appropriate and previously when it was pointed out that they didn't respond well in life to too much computer time, they self regulated, but that doesn't seem to be happening now.

Words of wisdom? Anyone? Anyone?

Sandra Dodd

-=- So when they get off the computers, they both act like crazy animals. They scream, run, yell, push, wrestle, tickle non stop. They drive each other, plus my husband and I nuts when they act like that. They are truly unable to control themselves often in public because they are more or less hyperactive-=-

If they are truly unable to control themselves in public, and if they truly will not listen to you, don't take them out in public.
But I don't believe it's the computer, or "public" that's the problem.  I don't think they're hyperactive.   It sounds like they're excited and happy boys.

So don't take them where they need to act like adults, if you can help it, until they're older and not ten years old, give or take.  

If you DO need to go where they need to be still and quiet for a long time, TELL them, don't "point out."  Don't make it an option.

-=-Now they run through stores, crash into people, fling their bodies about, etc unable to stop even when we point out how inappropriate their behavior is. I am certain it is because of the extensive computer usage and therefore less physical activity.-=-

Plan ahead.  If you are "certain" then have an hour of activity before they need to be still.  

I think if they won't listen to you, about how to behave, that's a problem in the relationship.

If they behave badly, your team is losing.  But if you're not on their team at home, they're not on your team, so it becomes adversarial, and wild behavior is a win for them, but staid behavior would be a loss.  Figure out how you can help them be winners.

This comes AFTER you have a good partnership going:

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

-=- I've even seen someone with a treadmill set up in front of a standing desk. -=-

As options those could be cool.
As a parental requirement, NOT cool.

It would sound like punishment to me if a parent said "you can use the computer, but only if you're standing, sitting on a ball, peddling or walking."

For unschooling, the parent should get in there and learn those games, or watch those videos, encourage those kids and learn what they're enjoying.

Sandra

<char@...>

Not sure where anyone got the idea that we don't have a good relationship, that I expect grown up behavior or why anyone thinks I don't know or don't participate in their online activities. I think the important part in my original post that seems to have been missed is that this is totally new, radically different  behavior that they both started to exhibit shortly after starting to spend so much time online.


I'm okay with what they are doing online and also okay that they are spending so much time online. I just want them to find a balance for themselves in their physical activity, like they have for the past 9 and almost 13 years, which seems to be missing now.


We have been unschooling for about 8 years and I did get info elsewhere because when I first joined this board 7-8 years ago I felt that people immediately spoke to me as if they all knew my life, my children, my ideals, my relationship with my kids better than I knew those things myself so I quickly got off the list. Unfortunately, it seems things haven't changed. One person mentioned a few ideas about an indoor trampoline, etc....thank you.


Interestingly, just yesterday at the end of the day my almost 13 year old said to me, "I didn't go online today at all because I think I want to experiment with trying less computer use. It makes me feel all out of control and like I can't stand myself when I do." 


So though I was never worried about it and have always had a strong belief in my kids, I just thought there might be some suggestions that might help. In the end, as is usual, I'm reminded that we'll find our way without others telling me I'm doing everything wrong.


charlene



--- In [email protected], <Sandra@...> wrote:

-=- I've even seen someone with a treadmill set up in front of a standing desk. -=-

As options those could be cool.
As a parental requirement, NOT cool.

It would sound like punishment to me if a parent said "you can use the computer, but only if you're standing, sitting on a ball, peddling or walking."

For unschooling, the parent should get in there and learn those games, or watch those videos, encourage those kids and learn what they're enjoying.

Sandra

Karen

>>>>> When I read the original post it seemed the mom wasn't participating with the boys and wasn't really sure what they were doing on the computer, so being cranky about them being on the computer, she was blaming it for other things. Seems more to be a disconnect, a lack of partnership.<<<<<

Many nights after my husband comes home from work, he asks me to play Starcraft with him. I'm not very good at it. For those of you who know about games, my APM (actions per minute) are around 14. My husband's are in the hundreds. I'm slow and pokey...and precise. ;-) It isn't because I'm good that he likes me to play. It's because he wants to connect. Share something. Be on his team. I love it actually - the connecting, the sharing, the team. I think the game is okay.

The same goes with my son. Just today, we played some games on the computer. Then he asked me to come outside on the slack line with him. Now he is playing and I am writing beside him. Later he is excited to go to a graphics party through Doug's work. This weekend we might do something I like to do.

Just two days ago, Ethan and I were balancing on the slack line together. He jumped down and said, "Do you know what I like about being here so much?" I assumed he meant being outside on the slack line. I said, "No. What?" He said, "That you and dad love me so much." Then I understood that "being here" meant being alive. How great is that!? What a gift we have given him. It's so humbling.

That love of life will take him far, whatever he chooses to do. I hope he always knows it.

Karen

Sandra Dodd

-=-when I first joined this board 7-8 years ago I felt that people immediately spoke to me as if they all knew my life, my children, my ideals, my relationship with my kids better than I knew those things myself -=-

People aren't speaking to you, though. They're speaking to the statements made, for the benefit of ALL the readers. This discussion has been that way, and described that way, for nearly 12 years. (I'll put a note below to a great explanation of that, by Joyce, written over 8 years ago, I'm pretty sure.)

Here are some other ideas about physical activities:
http://sandradodd.com/physicality

If something changed recently, and you've recently let them be online more, they will need to recover from the binge that results from restrictions being lifted. That's caused by the former restrictions, not by the current activity. It will settle out.

http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange

-=-Not sure where anyone got the idea that we don't have a good relationship, that I expect grown up behavior or why anyone thinks I don't know or don't participate in their online activities.-=-

Phrases you used and conditions you described could, in a family, indicate that. If it doesn't in yours, no problem. If it does, fine, but there are others here who will look at all the comments and hold them up to their own situations and questions. it's not a help desk, it's a discussion of ideas.

-=- I think the important part in my original post that seems to have been missed is that this is totally new, radically different behavior that they both started to exhibit shortly after starting to spend so much time online.-=-

People often reveal information they didn't intend to, and that's sometimes what commenters pick up on. People who offer assistance for free can do it the way they want to, and here's how Joyce has described the workings of this discussion:

--------------------------
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")

Joyce

http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning

Sandra

Meredith Novak

>>they are getting much, much less physical activity. So when they get off the computers, they both act like crazy animals.<<

What if that's not the reason? After all, they're still getting a lot of physical activity, so it really doesn't seem likely that's such a big deal. So what other factors could be coming into play? It could be that what they're doing is getting them very excited! Movies, games, social interactions... all those things can be really stimulating. My daughter often gets off the computer all excited about something and then will go and run around, or jump on the trampoline, or talk (and she's not a talker so sudden bursts of conversation are somewhat startling!). Do your guys have a chance to do something like that? Run around or chatter enthusiastically? Play out some of what they've read or seen or discussed? If they're getting off the computer for a dull car ride to a boring old grocery store, then it makes sense that they seem a bit overstimulated - they haven't had a chance to process all that excitement, share their joys, or work off a bit of steam yet. 

Rather than bemoaning their excess energy, anticipate it. Be prepared for them to need some time rather than expecting them to go right from the computer to something else. Be there to ask questions, or offer to do something active and fun right away - "hey, you're off the internet? Lets go for a bike ride and you can tell me about that game you were playing, it looked really cool."

>>When they were little they used the computers very little and I felt good about that.
style="font-family: Georgia; font-size: 12.727272033691406px; line-height: 15.852272033691406px;">>>I'm okay with that because they are able to still engage with us and aren't like zombies in front of the screen

I pulled those two lines out because they both show that you have a definite bias around this topic - that's a problem. I'm going to rephrase them with a different kind of bias to highlight that: "when she was little my daughter eschewed team sports and I felt good about that" and "I'm okay with her playing croquet because she is still able to engage with me and hasn't been subsumed by a team." It's possible to have biases like that about anything - for some parents its books, or socializing (wanting to be like other kids - that's a hard one for some parents). As long as you have that kind of bias, it's going to effect your assumptions about causes and effects. That's why it's so important to step back and say "what if I'm wrong? What Other reasons might there be for what I'm seeing?" Don't trust your "gut" about this, think it through. 

 >>when it was pointed out that they didn't respond well in life to too much computer time...<<

The time they're spending reading, watching videos, playing games, and socializing is all part of their life, regardless of whether or not those things involve a computer. If you're not seeing that and valuing those parts of their lives, they'll be less likely to share those parts of their lives... and that in turn could be a reason for being a little "wild" - they're stressed by the thought of your disapproval or lack of understanding. People tend to make poorer decisions under stress. Don't set them up to make poorer decisions if you can help it! Get more involved with those other parts of their lives so they can feel like  you're an ally rather than some kind of gatekeeper. 

---Meredith

<char@...>

Sigh.....thanks all for taking the time to share your thoughts and ideas. Unfortunately, none of them seem to pertain to me, my kids or our situation at all. I really appreciate that this is a list for bouncing ideas, so bounce away. The following paragraph is addressed to me, as witnessed by the use of "you,"  as were most of the others. So I'm confused as to why it would be stated that they are not addressed to me...


<<If you're not seeing that and valuing those parts of their lives, they'll be less likely to share those parts of their lives... and that in turn could be a reason for being a little "wild" - they're stressed by the thought of your disapproval or lack of understanding. People tend to make poorer decisions under stress. Don't set them up to make poorer decisions if you can help it! Get more involved with those other parts of their lives so they can feel like  you're an ally rather than some kind of gatekeeper. 



I am very, very involved in my kids activities, online and otherwise and don't "disapprove" of anything. I'm only concerned about the extremely different behavior they are exhibiting, that came about due to no changes about lifting restrictions. Computer usage wasn't restricted before and now isn't. You can't possibly be suggesting that I should never be concerned or that if I am I surely must disapprove, right? Once again, not sure what post it is that others are responding to, but people seem to like to add a lot to my post (maybe it is projection about your own lives, rather than mine.) I think you're right, Sandra, people are reading between the lines of my post reading all kinds of random things that do not reflect our situation remotely. Maybe I didn't word the original very well because I typed it in a flash and never even re-read it before sending, but there are some rather amusing assumptions that have been made here!


I'm glad others are getting something out of all of your bouncing of ideas, I wish some of it pertained to our situation. Since I posted the original query, I just assumed people would be responding to me and my query. I guess I shouldn't have made that assumption. Fortunately, since my last post, I have received many private messages of support, giving me constructive ideas without making assumptions about how our family functions or what our relationship is really like.


charlene



--- In [email protected], <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

>>they are getting much, much less physical activity. So when they get off the computers, they both act like crazy animals.<<

What if that's not the reason? After all, they're still getting a lot of physical activity, so it really doesn't seem likely that's such a big deal. So what other factors could be coming into play? It could be that what they're doing is getting them very excited! Movies, games, social interactions... all those things can be really stimulating. My daughter often gets off the computer all excited about something and then will go and run around, or jump on the trampoline, or talk (and she's not a talker so sudden bursts of conversation are somewhat startling!). Do your guys have a chance to do something like that? Run around or chatter enthusiastically? Play out some of what they've read or seen or discussed? If they're getting off the computer for a dull car ride to a boring old grocery store, then it makes sense that they seem a bit overstimulated - they haven't had a chance to process all that excitement, share their joys, or work off a bit of steam yet. 

Rather than bemoaning their excess energy, anticipate it. Be prepared for them to need some time rather than expecting them to go right from the computer to something else. Be there to ask questions, or offer to do something active and fun right away - "hey, you're off the internet? Lets go for a bike ride and you can tell me about that game you were playing, it looked really cool."

>>When they were little they used the computers very little and I felt good about that.
>>I'm okay with that because they are able to still engage with us and aren't like zombies in front of the screen

I pulled those two lines out because they both show that you have a definite bias around this topic - that's a problem. I'm going to rephrase them with a different kind of bias to highlight that: "when she was little my daughter eschewed team sports and I felt good about that" and "I'm okay with her playing croquet because she is still able to engage with me and hasn't been subsumed by a team." It's possible to have biases like that about anything - for some parents its books, or socializing (wanting to be like other kids - that's a hard one for some parents). As long as you have that kind of bias, it's going to effect your assumptions about causes and effects. That's why it's so important to step back and say "what if I'm wrong? What Other reasons might there be for what I'm seeing?" Don't trust your "gut" about this, think it through. 

 >>when it was pointed out that they didn't respond well in life to too much computer time...<<

The time they're spending reading, watching videos, playing games, and socializing is all part of their life, regardless of whether or not those things involve a computer. If you're not seeing that and valuing those parts of their lives, they'll be less likely to share those parts of their lives... and that in turn could be a reason for being a little "wild" - they're stressed by the thought of your disapproval or lack of understanding. People tend to make poorer decisions under stress. Don't set them up to make poorer decisions if you can help it! Get more involved with those other parts of their lives so they can feel like  you're an ally rather than some kind of gatekeeper. 

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

Let's say it's yahoo's fault and that you really did try to read the introduction to the group before posting.

There should have been (but there is not, at the moment) a direct link to this:

Notes on the best use of the Always Learning list:

As list owner, I much prefer quality over quantity. I'm not trying for volume. I'm trying to provide learning here so that participants can facilitate rich, fun learning lives for their families when they're not on the list.

Posts for this list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:

  • helps lots of people understand unschooling
  • asks a question that actually needs an answer
  • requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
  • helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people on the list)
ALL posts should be
  • honest
  • proofread
  • sincere
  • clear
NO posts should be just a "thank you" or "me too" or "cool" or "LOL"

With over a thousand people we don't need greetings and good-byes. Be here or don't be here, and save posting for important messages to hundreds of people.

If you don't want to even consider what people are offering as suggestions, keep that to yourself. THINK about what you've read. Think privately, and not in a post that hundreds of people will need to read or ignore. Only post important, useful, honest things.

Thanks,

Sandra


BRIAN POLIKOWSKY


<<<<<<<<<<< Since I posted the original query, I just assumed people would be responding to me and my query. I guess I shouldn't have made that assumption. Fortunately, since my last post, I have received many private messages of support, giving me constructive ideas without making assumptions about how our family functions or what our relationship is really like.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Why are those people NOT posting helpful ideas to the group!???? Really?? If anyone has helpful ideas they could be helping so many other people in this group!
What are you afraid of? People asking questions? People wanting to clarify ideas???
I have posted ideas that I thought could help others by sharing experiences or insights and my posts have been  analyzed and taken apart,  because of the words I chose to use, and you know that has only deepen my understanding of unschooling and its principles and help me tremendously. 
Sure no one has to post and I have heard of people even receiving invites to other groups and ideas that would not help others  towards unschooling.
If you know the advice will not help others towards unschooling posting here is not the thing to do but if one is here asking this group I would assume they would not want  that advice either.
If you want to write to someone and you thing it will help them towards unschooling  then you could be helping hundreds of people writing to the group. 
Heck I even got good ideas from this thread and if the original poster did not   maybe others got great ideas like I did. ( Going to get one of those big balls! I think my son may enjoy them)
 When people are discussing and answering posts in this list they will  be answering to the ideas and words used by the original poster.
The answers may apply or not to the original poster but they help many others because it is about the ideas! It is about unschooling.
I have been reading here for many years ,but not 8 years in this list. I understand that ideas are what we are discussing. Ideas about unschooling. It took me a while. If one has been reading here for long I hope they understand that because it is something that comes up a couple times a year.
If you are writing to others on the side and you feel your ideas are good and could help there are others in the list that want to hear them too.
Be brave. Be willing to  write them clearly and mindfully to the group. If your ideas are challenged you may learn something  too but I am certain you will be helping others , many others.

Alex Polikowsky ( Who helps herself more than others when I try to help others )

<bjelwell@...>

Hang in there with this list!  There's no other group giving the kind of parenting advice you'll find here for free.


I have taken breaks from reading.  Asking a question has felt like being whacked with an "awakening" stick, as if I had been nodding off in Zen Buddhist meditation.  


"Oh you think you're enlightened?"  (You think you get it?)  WHACK!!


After I'd processed my feelings, and sat with the advice for a while, I could see the truth in what others were saying.  


It's incredibly humbling and challenging to receive advice here.  I see those asking questions as putting themselves on the sacrificial altar of learning--or, getting hit with a stick during meditation.  It may sting YOU,  but everyone reading might learn something from it.


It may be easier for you to learn by reading Sandra's, Joyce's and Pam L's websites, rather than this group.  It was for me.  But I kept my membership here and started reading again when I was ready.


I'm wondering if your 12 year old's change in behavior has anything to do with puberty--feeling restless with all his new hormonal energy.  Possibly your 9 year old is reacting to that.  That's just a thought.  


Also, I'm curious if the games your kids are playing are different from before?  Has anything else changed?


Barb


Sandra Dodd

-=- I see those asking questions as putting themselves on the sacrificial altar of learning--or, getting hit with a stick during meditation.  It may sting YOU,  but everyone reading might learn something from it.
-=-

That's a harsh way to see it. :-)

I really wish people would read first, and here are the good starting places:

Sandra

Lisa Celedon

<<
I am very, very involved in my kids activities, online and
otherwise and don't "disapprove" of anything. I'm only concerned
about the extremely different behavior they are exhibiting, that
came about due to no changes about lifting restrictions. Computer
usage wasn't restricted before and now isn't. You can't possibly
be suggesting that I should never be concerned or that if I am I
surely must disapprove, right?>>

You mentioned that you have feelings about computer usage- you 'felt good' when they didn't use it a lot, when younger, and now you are seeing a correlation between increased usage and 'crazy' behavior. You also mentioned that they aren't 'zombie' like about the computer-- that statement suggests that you DO have a threshold of comfort around computer usage, and they are exceeding it. You are concerned about a perceived link between too much computer, not enough exercise (though you gave a pretty extensive list of physical activities they are involved in-- maybe they need *more* computer or down time and the wild behavior is from being overcommitted or overstimulated).

You also mentioned that you have 'pointed out' in the past how too much computer use had some sort of negative impact, and they were able to 'self-regulate' based on that feedback. Please read the links about control and self-regulation. Maybe at the time, using the computer wasn't as important to them as knowing mom felt good about what they were doing.

You have said you've never restricted their computer use, but I doubt that they havent picked up on your discomfort with what you seem to consider excessive-- a group of total strangers has done so.

Perhaps they are reacting to your concern. They've gotten really IN to what they're doing, and are on the computer more than you are comfortable with (whether you directly say it or not) and now they are SO interested in it, it trumps doing what mom is comfortable with-- maybe they feel uncomfortable or negative about themselves and with what they want-- that creates stress. Stress can make people act 'crazy.'

If you are feeling attacked and misunderstood, it's pretty likely there is something about the situation you are unwilling to see.

But I bet it would help your kids a LOT if you were able to find some other way to think about this than as a problem: "too much computer is making them crazy." A different way of looking at it is what people here have been trying to offer you, and everyone else reading.



Sent from my iPhone

Meredith Novak

>>Sigh.....thanks all for taking the time to share your thoughts and ideas. Unfortunately, none of them seem to pertain to me, my kids or our situation at all.<<

I have two fairly active kids, one grown. I learned to expect that if one of them did something sedentary for hours at a time that kid would need some time to blow of steam, talk, express his or her enthusiasm afterwards. Maybe in the past your kids weren't so sedentary so you haven't had a chance to learn. Now's your chance! 

Maybe you've been engaged and supportive all along, but something has changed - obviously. Why are they Now spending a lot of time on the computer? You haven't said what they're doing (why not?), so I can only guess based on my own family. My daughter reads, socializes, draws, writes, watches shows, movies and videos, and plays games. That's a lot! And it blossomed into a lot around age 10 - you have a 9 and 12 yo, right? So roughly the same age. It could easily be a developmental shift making them (or just one of them and the other likes to do what his brother is doing) more interested in... the social aspects of online gaming or writing, perhaps. But they still have a lot of energy they need to work off. So Help Them Do That. Help them run around, wrestle, jump up and down, climb, roughhouse, spin... whatever it is they need to do help them find ways to do that which are Safe and Appropriate. If you don't, they'll still do those things, but in ways that aren't nearly as safe or appropriate.

But you've also made some very derogatory and contradictory statements about certain kinds of intellectual pursuits. So it's worth asking yourself if you've been as engaged and supportive as you think.

---Meredith

<shaunareisewitz@...>

++++++Why are those people NOT posting helpful ideas to the group!???? Really?? If anyone has helpful ideas they could be helping so many other people in this group! ++++++


To answer this question, I think I might understand. I think I began to understand the nature of this group when several months ago it was described as(I'm paraphrasing here)  a dojo mat-- here people get in to "play" and toss around "radical unschooling" ideas. Like martial arts. It's very much enjoyed by the participants...  To those of us on the "outside" it seems like there are only a handful who are strong enough to "compete," and be respected by the really good players.  Yet we can still watch and learn from them.

Some of us watch and see a new person jump in and then get hammered by the "advanced players"-- but feel we might have something valuable to say, but don't want to get "the moves put on us" in the same way, so we might contact the newer commenter off list. Some might have a slightly different view of unschooling, and want to offer their viewpoint, without having  it scrutinized over here. But I certainly understand why people would contact questioners off list. (I haven't done it much myself honestly, maybe a couple times? at most) It's an intense environment to post. It's valuable to read, valuable to see when a new person posts too; there are the top players here, but not everyone who reads is ready  or wants to compete at the radical unschooling martial arts olympics.  : )


Most of the times I've posted to this list, I've gotten really nervous-- waiting for the attack to come. And I have pretty thick skin. So in answer to that question-- I think that is why some people with ideas don't post here. If people want to start "sparring" it feels easier and safer to try it over at the facebook group.

--- In [email protected], <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

>>Sigh.....thanks all for taking the time to share your thoughts and ideas. Unfortunately, none of them seem to pertain to me, my kids or our situation at all.<<

I have two fairly active kids, one grown. I learned to expect that if one of them did something sedentary for hours at a time that kid would need some time to blow of steam, talk, express his or her enthusiasm afterwards. Maybe in the past your kids weren't so sedentary so you haven't had a chance to learn. Now's your chance! 

Maybe you've been engaged and supportive all along, but something has changed - obviously. Why are they Now spending a lot of time on the computer? You haven't said what they're doing (why not?), so I can only guess based on my own family. My daughter reads, socializes, draws, writes, watches shows, movies and videos, and plays games. That's a lot! And it blossomed into a lot around age 10 - you have a 9 and 12 yo, right? So roughly the same age. It could easily be a developmental shift making them (or just one of them and the other likes to do what his brother is doing) more interested in... the social aspects of online gaming or writing, perhaps. But they still have a lot of energy they need to work off. So Help Them Do That. Help them run around, wrestle, jump up and down, climb, roughhouse, spin... whatever it is they need to do help them find ways to do that which are Safe and Appropriate. If you don't, they'll still do those things, but in ways that aren't nearly as safe or appropriate.

But you've also made some very derogatory and contradictory statements about certain kinds of intellectual pursuits. So it's worth asking yourself if you've been as engaged and supportive as you think.

---Meredith

Brandynn Stanford

Maybe I didn't word the original very well because I typed it in a flash and never even re-read it before sending, but there are some rather amusing assumptions that have been made here!

This is deflection, often used when the feedback received has hit too close to home. A better reply would be, "Yeah, I didn't word the original very well. I typed it in a flash and never even re-read it before sending. I can see where y'all got some strange assumptions. Let me backup and try again." (Though I think the in-a-flash writings reveal more of our actual, true situation, because we're throwing it all out there without trying to pretty it up.)

Anything posted online, and perhaps anything written ever, should be well thought out, re-read, and confirmed to be expressing the ideas one is intending to express. Otherwise communication is ended before it gets a chance to start. If a situation is so important and/or dire that one is looking for help with it, then it should be important to that person to be as clear, precise, and thoughtful as possible. Scratching off something in a rush, with nary a look back, undercuts the importance of the situation and takes for granted the energies of folks who are offering their valuable time to help. It also muddies the waters for others in similar situations who could benefit from the advice.

One person mentioned a few ideas about an indoor trampoline, etc....thank you.

If the purpose was merely to get suggestions on exercise ideas, even though "they are both involved in many other physical activities", then these phrases don't match up with such a request. 


come to be much more relaxed about my concerns

They instead chose

For the most part, I'm okay with that

aren't like zombies

in front of the screen

drive each other, plus my husband and I nuts

truly unable to control themselves

hyperactive

social graces

we point out how inappropriate

discussed what seems appropriate

when it was pointed out … they self-regulated


It might not be a matter of re-phrasing, though. My husband has an un-canny ability to see the root of something and base his advice and encouragement on that. But often I've only wanted surface advice and not wanted to think about the underlying stuff. So I respond with, "No, you must've misunderstood, how could you come to such weird conclusions," and I phrase it a different way. And he'll patiently explain why the root issue is still there. And I'll say, "Well then I wasn't clear enough, let me phrase it like this. And this. And this." All the while trying to get the answer I was looking for instead of the one I needed.

It has benefited our family when I've learned to describe the situation clearly, or understood that he saw past the surface stuff to the real issue, or been willing to contemplate his suggestions instead of getting defensive and angry.

~ Brandynn

Amber Boggs

Hi, last night I came up with an idea that might help your situation.
 Do you guys own a wii Nintendo system? They make some very cool games that require physical energy. They have boxing skateboarding etc. etc. etc. I wonder if your kids would enjoy playing these  games. There enough like computer games that they might spark some interest, but would also give them an outlet for all of the physical energy they have. The fun part is the entire family can be involved,
Friendly,
Amber 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 6, 2013, at 5:25 PM, <char@...> wrote:

 

Sigh.....thanks all for taking the time to share your thoughts and ideas. Unfortunately, none of them seem to pertain to me, my kids or our situation at all. I really appreciate that this is a list for bouncing ideas, so bounce away. The following paragraph is addressed to me, as witnessed by the use of "you,"  as were most of the others. So I'm confused as to why it would be stated that they are not addressed to me...


<<If you're not seeing that and valuing those parts of their lives, they'll be less likely to share those parts of their lives... and that in turn could be a reason for being a little "wild" - they're stressed by the thought of your disapproval or lack of understanding. People tend to make poorer decisions under stress. Don't set them up to make poorer decisions if you can help it! Get more involved with those other parts of their lives so they can feel like  you're an ally rather than some kind of gatekeeper. 



I am very, very involved in my kids activities, online and otherwise and don't "disapprove" of anything. I'm only concerned about the extremely different behavior they are exhibiting, that came about due to no changes about lifting restrictions. Computer usage wasn't restricted before and now isn't. You can't possibly be suggesting that I should never be concerned or that if I am I surely must disapprove, right? Once again, not sure what post it is that others are responding to, but people seem to like to add a lot to my post (maybe it is projection about your own lives, rather than mine.) I think you're right, Sandra, people are reading between the lines of my post reading all kinds of random things that do not reflect our situation remotely. Maybe I didn't word the original very well because I typed it in a flash and never even re-read it before sending, but there are some rather amusing assumptions that have been made here!


I'm glad others are getting something out of all of your bouncing of ideas, I wish some of it pertained to our situation. Since I posted the original query, I just assumed people would be responding to me and my query. I guess I shouldn't have made that assumption. Fortunately, since my last post, I have received many private messages of support, giving me constructive ideas without making assumptions about how our family functions or what our relationship is really like.


charlene



--- In [email protected], <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

>>they are getting much, much less physical activity. So when they get off the computers, they both act like crazy animals.<<

What if that's not the reason? After all, they're still getting a lot of physical activity, so it really doesn't seem likely that's such a big deal. So what other factors could be coming into play? It could be that what they're doing is getting them very excited! Movies, games, social interactions... all those things can be really stimulating. My daughter often gets off the computer all excited about something and then will go and run around, or jump on the trampoline, or talk (and she's not a talker so sudden bursts of conversation are somewhat startling!). Do your guys have a chance to do something like that? Run around or chatter enthusiastically? Play out some of what they've read or seen or discussed? If they're getting off the computer for a dull car ride to a boring old grocery store, then it makes sense that they seem a bit overstimulated - they haven't had a chance to process all that excitement, share their joys, or work off a bit of steam yet. 

Rather than bemoaning their excess energy, anticipate it. Be prepared for them to need some time rather than expecting them to go right from the computer to something else. Be there to ask questions, or offer to do something active and fun right away - "hey, you're off the internet? Lets go for a bike ride and you can tell me about that game you were playing, it looked really cool."

>>When they were little they used the computers very little and I felt good about that.
>>I'm okay with that because they are able to still engage with us and aren't like zombies in front of the screen

I pulled those two lines out because they both show that you have a definite bias around this topic - that's a problem. I'm going to rephrase them with a different kind of bias to highlight that: "when she was little my daughter eschewed team sports and I felt good about that" and "I'm okay with her playing croquet because she is still able to engage with me and hasn't been subsumed by a team." It's possible to have biases like that about anything - for some parents its books, or socializing (wanting to be like other kids - that's a hard one for some parents). As long as you have that kind of bias, it's going to effect your assumptions about causes and effects. That's why it's so important to step back and say "what if I'm wrong? What Other reasons might there be for what I'm seeing?" Don't trust your "gut" about this, think it through. 

 >>when it was pointed out that they didn't respond well in life to too much computer time...<<

The time they're spending reading, watching videos, playing games, and socializing is all part of their life, regardless of whether or not those things involve a computer. If you're not seeing that and valuing those parts of their lives, they'll be less likely to share those parts of their lives... and that in turn could be a reason for being a little "wild" - they're stressed by the thought of your disapproval or lack of understanding. People tend to make poorer decisions under stress. Don't set them up to make poorer decisions if you can help it! Get more involved with those other parts of their lives so they can feel like  you're an ally rather than some kind of gatekeeper. 

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

Trying to edit a pending post, I accidentally deleted it.  Yahoogroups has changed everything on us.   Sorry.

============

From: Amber Boggs <amber@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] RE: Computer usage and physical activity
Date: September 7, 2013 11:53:24 AM MDT


Hi, last night I came up with an idea that might help your situation.
 Do you guys own a wii Nintendo system? They make some very cool games that require physical energy. They have boxing skateboarding etc. etc. etc. I wonder if your kids would enjoy playing these  games. There enough like computer games that they might spark some interest, but would also give them an outlet for all of the physical energy they have. The fun part is the entire family can be involved,
Friendly,
Amber 
_______________

(I deleted two long appended posts.)

<bjelwell@...>

 I think the person feeling "stung" can learn, too, but it's harder to process.  Many of us, (most of us?) were punished as children.  We either accept that we deserved the punishment, and continue to punish our children.  Or, through processing and healing those wounds, we realize we didn't deserve to be punished, that no one deserves to be punished. 


If someone ends up on this list, they've likely already been down a long road of trying to do better for their kids.  If advice stings, it's because it triggers that place of deep insecurity--the wounded place inside of us that remembers being criticized, punished, told to do better.  


Shame might surface--we so desperately want to do better for our kids, and know we can do better.  Here are people we respect, telling us bluntly that we're missing a critical piece of the puzzle.  I've heard lots of "shoulds" in the advice here, even if it's not worded as a "should".  The advice may be sound, but we know how "shoulds" work in our brain--we equate "should" with lack of choice.


I've tried other unschooling lists, but none challenge me to grow as much as this one.  I think I'm not "shiny" enough for the shiny list.


As a child, I was whacked with a stick, often.  While the physical wounds healed long ago, the emotional wounds are still with me.  


If reading this list is all you do, you won't be getting the empathy you need to heal your own childhood wounds, or the acknowledgement of all you are doing well and right and better for your kids. This is not a place of empathy or support.  This is a place of "you need to hear".... which relatively few of us can accept. 


Barb






Taking a break and reading more can help a lot.



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

-=- I see those asking questions as putting themselves on the sacrificial altar of learning--or, getting hit with a stick during meditation.  It may sting YOU,  but everyone reading might learn something from it.
-=-

That's a harsh way to see it. :-)

I really wish people would read first, and here are the good starting places:

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-If reading this list is all you do, you won't be getting the empathy you need to heal your own childhood wounds, or the acknowledgement of all you are doing well and right and better for your kids. This is not a place of empathy or support.-=-

I think that's too harsh.

If someone's childhood wounds are keeping them from being good parents, they need to do something, and joining a "more supportive" unschooling discussion is unlikely to help them move forward.  It's more likely to soothe them about staying where and as they are.

The assumption in this discussion, though, is is that participants want to understand unschooling.  And we're treating them as intelligent adults, not as wounded children.  

-=-...the acknowledgement of all you are doing well and right and better for your kids.-=-

That acknowledgement should come from inside the family, not from total strangers who could be praising abusive drunks.  Support can range from worthless to harmful, when it's just words from strangers.  http://sandradodd.com/support

People who need help healing childhood wounds CAN be helped by being better parents.  By choosing to be gentler with their children, they can heal their inner child, and pacify some of their resentments and memories with thoughts that if their parents had known more or had more choices, their own lives might have been more peaceful, more interesting, more expansive—something.  

Those for whom cognitive review and their own careful efforts to become better people will be insufficient might want to hire a coach or counselor or therapist.  I have a collection of good ones:
All are either unschooling parents, grown unschoolers, or have another close connection with unschoolers.  No one would need to begin by explaining unschooling, nor worry that they'll just be told to put the kids in school.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-but not everyone who reads is ready  or wants to compete at the radical unschooling martial arts olympics.  : )-=-

The analogy Pam used (I think it was Pam) was not a competition.  It was more like (bad word to use in an unschooling context) training. Coaching.  Trying ideas and seeing if they work.

The winners are the readers who take something out, use it, and find their lives are better.  

Lives aren't made better in this discussion.  They're made better when relationships between parents and children change in new, longlasting ways.

Some people seem to think that if they argue long enough, those of use whose children are already grown will say "Oh, I hadn't thought of that.  You're probably right.  I probably should not have unschooled the way I did."   But how likely is that to happen, when some of us have been in discussions like this since our children were very young, and we shared what we were doing, and read other ideas, and took criticism and tried it out, and changed what we were doing in all kinds of better ways, and our children were happier and grew up whole and strong.   

We've seen people reject the ideas, go away, come back later and say "I should not have gone away."
We've seen people say "this list is mean," and go to other discussions, and come back and say "They didn't know how to help me, though they were 'nice'."  (And we've seen/read/heard much worse than that, too.)

These are not random pairings.  It's a group discussing radical unschooling. It's not a government agency assigned to answer people's questions about homeschooling (such officers are few and far between, and often give bad information anyway).  It's an ongoing discussion older than some members' children.

The Always Learning discussion is something rare and special and good, and the fact that some people wanted to be stroked and told they were as good as parents could get, so not to worry that some mean people thought they could do better doesn't change the value of the opportunity provided here for parents who already KNOW they are not doing as well as they could possibly do, and who KNOW that there are parents who have already unschooled and thought about it deeply for many years, and are willing to help them, for free, all hours of the day or night.  Complaining about that is not productive.  Insulting the people who are willing to do that doesn't change the benefits of unschooling.  It reveals something about the person who is complaining.   We've seen those things revealed in many people over the years.  

Because no one is forced to post here, and every word written and sent is voluntary, being angry that someone saw the words, read them, thought about them and responded can be amusing.  Not in a laughing-at-someone say, but in an "isn't-it-interesting" way.  People's expectations  are sometimes quite removed from normal, logical reality and they get angry if that's noticed.

Although lately with the Yahoogroups changes, the intro to this group hasn't been as prominent, and the links were disabled, for most of 12 years they were working fine.  But people will join the group (no one has been drafted into it against his or her will; no one has EVER been court-ordered to join; no one has EVER been required by any educational jurisdiction to participate in a yahoogroups discussion)... they join the group of their own free will, having first found it somehow, and then some ignore the intro, ignore the advice to read before posting, ignore the link about posting guidelines, and then rant because they don't like the responses they get.

-=-Most of the times I've posted to this list, I've gotten really nervous-- waiting for the attack to come. -=-

Some people bring antagonism with them.  For anyone who doesn't really WANT radical unschooling information, then this is probably not the place to be.   Without an adversarial attitude, how could there be "an attack"?  If someone wants the kind of discussion we've been providing, they will feel included, they will feel informed, encouraged, and supported.

-=-If people want to start "sparring" it feels easier and safer to try it over at the facebook group. -=-

People who prefer other discussions should go there and leave this list.  Staying here to complain is a waste of a lot of people's time and energy.  But some people stay because they hope for "a win."  They want to see if they can get praise for ideas that really are not radical unschooling.  It's a misuse of the discussion.  Still, there are people reading who will learn from the responses.

There is a level of "sparring," I suppose, that has to do with things like integrity, good will, generosity, clarity—there are champions in those things here.  There are writers who continue to patiently respond to posts even when they know the question wasn't asked openly and honestly, because they are willing to volunteer their time, knowledge and abilities to help other people's children have parents who understand radical unschooling better.  They know the children they're helping might not be the children of the hostile, defensive moms asking the rude questions and complaining about the answers.

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

 Sounds like some are looking at this discussion as a match you either win or lose !

So I am going to quote this Jiu-Jitsu quote from one of the Gracies ( and we grew up with them in Brazil )

"In Jiu-Jitsu there is no defeat. You win or learn"

I see this "matches ", as you call, not as a competition to see who knows more or who can win.

I think *everyone* in the list wins!

The person who posted if her ideas were discussed, others reading and the person who may have challenged those ideas/ answered them.

I know I get so much from posting and having my words and ideas challenged! It can be hard but it really pays off because my intent is not to be * right*, it is to learn and do better, it is to understand why , all the reasons that idea or the words I am using  can help me or not to create this wonderful learning environment for my children to learn and to be  the partner, mother and wife I want to be.
No  one is defeated here! Really.

 Another analogy I see is that this is a Vegan list and someone is having problems with a recipe and asks questions and on the side people are sending her messages that she should use a little lard to make the recipe work.  Or eggs so she is still *vegetarian ovo-lacto* but not Vegan.

 The recipes here will be vegan. IF someone says use eggs that will be discussed! Sending that on the side I am not sure is what the other person wants if they are here asking for help. It maybe undermining them.
I honestly would not appreciate that kind of advice if I was here looking to keep my recipes vegan.


 
Alex Polikowsky ( English is not my first language but I still post here because I learn  and my ideas get clearer and it helps me be a better mom)
 
 
 

<shaunareisewitz@...>

Maybe some people look at this discussion as one you win or lose, but I doubt that many do. The part of martial arts that I understood was more like a dance-- but with ideas- getting kicked and played around--and/but be careful how you word things-- because one word can get picked up and examined-- and that's not what you meant. But if you look at it from the principle of tossing around and carefully examining  ideas (rather than the person posting) one can feel less misunderstood...
I was trying to answer why many might answer people off list rather than on-list. It's a little intimidating to enter "the ring". That's all.  But it's a wonderful service to be able to read and learn from. So thank you, regular posters.



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

 Sounds like some are looking at this discussion as a match you either win or lose !

So I am going to quote this Jiu-Jitsu quote from one of the Gracies ( and we grew up with them in Brazil )

"In Jiu-Jitsu there is no defeat. You win or learn"

I see this "matches ", as you call, not as a competition to see who knows more or who can win.

I think *everyone* in the list wins!

The person who posted if her ideas were discussed, others reading and the person who may have challenged those ideas/ answered them.

I know I get so much from posting and having my words and ideas challenged! It can be hard but it really pays off because my intent is not to be * right*, it is to learn and do better, it is to understand why , all the reasons that idea or the words I am using  can help me or not to create this wonderful learning environment for my children to learn and to be  the partner, mother and wife I want to be.
No  one is defeated here! Really.

 Another analogy I see is that this is a Vegan list and someone is having problems with a recipe and asks questions and on the side people are sending her messages that she should use a little lard to make the recipe work.  Or eggs so she is still *vegetarian ovo-lacto* but not Vegan.

 The recipes here will be vegan. IF someone says use eggs that will be discussed! Sending that on the side I am not sure is what the other person wants if they are here asking for help. It maybe undermining them.
I honestly would not appreciate that kind of advice if I was here looking to keep my recipes vegan.


 
Alex Polikowsky ( English is not my first language but I still post here because I learn  and my ideas get clearer and it helps me be a better mom)
 
 
 

<fairiedust66@...>

I know from my perspective that all of my responses are coming from a viewpoint of support and understanding, not judgement or anything negative. Even though some responses might be taken negatively, I feel that people on this list truly get it and fully understand unschooling - the good and bad, and that they are only offering heartfelt, honest advice. Sometimes honesty can be taken as negative or judgmental, but if you reserve your own judgement you will find that this group is the most amazing unschooling group.



--- In [email protected], <shaunareisewitz@...> wrote:

Maybe some people look at this discussion as one you win or lose, but I doubt that many do. The part of martial arts that I understood was more like a dance-- but with ideas- getting kicked and played around--and/but be careful how you word things-- because one word can get picked up and examined-- and that's not what you meant. But if you look at it from the principle of tossing around and carefully examining  ideas (rather than the person posting) one can feel less misunderstood...
I was trying to answer why many might answer people off list rather than on-list. It's a little intimidating to enter "the ring". That's all.  But it's a wonderful service to be able to read and learn from. So thank you, regular posters.



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

 Sounds like some are looking at this discussion as a match you either win or lose !

So I am going to quote this Jiu-Jitsu quote from one of the Gracies ( and we grew up with them in Brazil )

"In Jiu-Jitsu there is no defeat. You win or learn"

I see this "matches ", as you call, not as a competition to see who knows more or who can win.

I think *everyone* in the list wins!

The person who posted if her ideas were discussed, others reading and the person who may have challenged those ideas/ answered them.

I know I get so much from posting and having my words and ideas challenged! It can be hard but it really pays off because my intent is not to be * right*, it is to learn and do better, it is to understand why , all the reasons that idea or the words I am using  can help me or not to create this wonderful learning environment for my children to learn and to be  the partner, mother and wife I want to be.
No  one is defeated here! Really.

 Another analogy I see is that this is a Vegan list and someone is having problems with a recipe and asks questions and on the side people are sending her messages that she should use a little lard to make the recipe work.  Or eggs so she is still *vegetarian ovo-lacto* but not Vegan.

 The recipes here will be vegan. IF someone says use eggs that will be discussed! Sending that on the side I am not sure is what the other person wants if they are here asking for help. It maybe undermining them.
I honestly would not appreciate that kind of advice if I was here looking to keep my recipes vegan.


 
Alex Polikowsky ( English is not my first language but I still post here because I learn  and my ideas get clearer and it helps me be a better mom)
 
 
 

Stephknee Selby

I've sat and pondered statements for months before it has finally gotten through to me. For me, to the point statements is what I've needed for change. And sometimes my ego needs the hit. This is not the easy road, not for me anyway. It's taking thought, critique, and a lot of watching and reading, I mean a lot. Misguided ideas that get attacked, help me because I may have agreed with the misadvice, and see things clearer when the idea is attacked. I'm grateful to have more experienced people give honest, forward thought. (But I've grown to this point, I did once try to leave the group :) really glad I didn't)

Otherwise one can go here http://sandradodd.com/support/

Steph

On Sep 9, 2013 12:22 PM, <fairiedust66@...> wrote:
 

I know from my perspective that all of my responses are coming from a viewpoint of support and understanding, not judgement or anything negative. Even though some responses might be taken negatively, I feel that people on this list truly get it and fully understand unschooling - the good and bad, and that they are only offering heartfelt, honest advice. Sometimes honesty can be taken as negative or judgmental, but if you reserve your own judgement you will find that this group is the most amazing unschooling group.



--- In [email protected], <shaunareisewitz@...> wrote:

Maybe some people look at this discussion as one you win or lose, but I doubt that many do. The part of martial arts that I understood was more like a dance-- but with ideas- getting kicked and played around--and/but be careful how you word things-- because one word can get picked up and examined-- and that's not what you meant. But if you look at it from the principle of tossing around and carefully examining  ideas (rather than the person posting) one can feel less misunderstood...
I was trying to answer why many might answer people off list rather than on-list. It's a little intimidating to enter "the ring". That's all.  But it's a wonderful service to be able to read and learn from. So thank you, regular posters.



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

 Sounds like some are looking at this discussion as a match you either win or lose !

So I am going to quote this Jiu-Jitsu quote from one of the Gracies ( and we grew up with them in Brazil )

"In Jiu-Jitsu there is no defeat. You win or learn"

I see this "matches ", as you call, not as a competition to see who knows more or who can win.

I think *everyone* in the list wins!

The person who posted if her ideas were discussed, others reading and the person who may have challenged those ideas/ answered them.

I know I get so much from posting and having my words and ideas challenged! It can be hard but it really pays off because my intent is not to be * right*, it is to learn and do better, it is to understand why , all the reasons that idea or the words I am using  can help me or not to create this wonderful learning environment for my children to learn and to be  the partner, mother and wife I want to be.
No  one is defeated here! Really.

 Another analogy I see is that this is a Vegan list and someone is having problems with a recipe and asks questions and on the side people are sending her messages that she should use a little lard to make the recipe work.  Or eggs so she is still *vegetarian ovo-lacto* but not Vegan.

 The recipes here will be vegan. IF someone says use eggs that will be discussed! Sending that on the side I am not sure is what the other person wants if they are here asking for help. It maybe undermining them.
I honestly would not appreciate that kind of advice if I was here looking to keep my recipes vegan.


 
Alex Polikowsky ( English is not my first language but I still post here because I learn  and my ideas get clearer and it helps me be a better mom)