Rescuing children from natural consequences
jennwells79
What are your thoughts on this? For example, last week my 6-year-old decided she wasn't going to wear shoes to grandmas house. When we got there, she wanted me to carry her inside because the driveway is gravel and would hurt her feet. It was cold, windy, and I had my toddler to carry in and I had to pee. I told her she was just going to have to deal with it because she chose not to wear shoes. She was very upset, and I questioned if I had made the right decision not to "rescue" her from her own bad decision.
Would you have handled this differently?
Would you have handled this differently?
[email protected]
For example, last week my 6-year-old decided she wasn't going to wear shoes to grandmas house. When we got there, she wanted me to carry her inside because the driveway is gravel and would hurt her feet. It was cold, windy, and I had my toddler to carry in and I had to pee. I told her she was just going to have to deal with it because she chose not to wear shoes.
Would you have handled this differently?
I would have quickly taken the toddler in and asked her to wait for the few minutes that would take. Ran back out and carried her in. Then I would have run to the bathroom and peed.
I wouldn't have said anything about the shoes. She's six. Next time, stick some slip= on shoes in the car or just keep some always in the car (and a jacket and a change of clothes)
and there will be more options. Just one of probably many possible solutions. Gail
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Would you have handled this differently?
I would have quickly taken the toddler in and asked her to wait for the few minutes that would take. Ran back out and carried her in. Then I would have run to the bathroom and peed.
I wouldn't have said anything about the shoes. She's six. Next time, stick some slip= on shoes in the car or just keep some always in the car (and a jacket and a change of clothes)
and there will be more options. Just one of probably many possible solutions. Gail
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Jo
If you had carried her, it wouldn't have been a "bad decision". It sounds more like a fun decision that turned out bad because you wouldn't help?
On 19 Feb 2012, at 01:14, "jennwells79" <jennwells79@...> wrote:
> What are your thoughts on this? For example, last week my 6-year-old decided she wasn't going to wear shoes to grandmas house. When we got there, she wanted me to carry her inside because the driveway is gravel and would hurt her feet. It was cold, windy, and I had my toddler to carry in and I had to pee. I told her she was just going to have to deal with it because she chose not to wear shoes. She was very upset, and I questioned if I had made the right decision not to "rescue" her from her own bad decision.
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Did you take her shoes in the car so she had a choice to wear them?
Does she likes her shoes? Do they bother her?
I would have taken a pair of shoes or flip flops that she could have used to get from the car to the house.
I do not know here you are but here when we get to someone's home, sometimes even in the Summer,
we take our shoes off.
Alex Polikowsky
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Does she likes her shoes? Do they bother her?
I would have taken a pair of shoes or flip flops that she could have used to get from the car to the house.
I do not know here you are but here when we get to someone's home, sometimes even in the Summer,
we take our shoes off.
Alex Polikowsky
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Missing "w" ! It is supposed to be Where not here! and I did not even notice!
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Rescuing children from natural consequences
Did you take her shoes in the car so she had a choice to wear them?
Does she likes her shoes? Do they bother her?
I would have taken a pair of shoes or flip flops that she could have used to get from the car to the house.
I do not know here you are but here when we get to someone's home, sometimes even in the Summer,
we take our shoes off.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Rescuing children from natural consequences
Did you take her shoes in the car so she had a choice to wear them?
Does she likes her shoes? Do they bother her?
I would have taken a pair of shoes or flip flops that she could have used to get from the car to the house.
I do not know here you are but here when we get to someone's home, sometimes even in the Summer,
we take our shoes off.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jennwells79
>
> I would have quickly taken the toddler in and asked her to wait for the few minutes that would take. Ran back out and carried her in. Then I would have run to the bathroom and peed.
> I wouldn't have said anything about the shoes. She's six. Next time, stick some slip= on shoes in the car or just keep some always in the car (and a jacket and a change of clothes)
> and there will be more options. Just one of probably many possible solutions. Gail
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> I see what you are saying, but you don't think a 6 year old (almost 7) should bear any responsibility for those kinds of decisions? I reminded her that shoes would be a good idea before we left. My toddler would not have allowed me to just quickly drop him off and run back outside. He's a clinger...... and a screamer. That just seems like alot of work to save her from three or four steps on a gravel driveway. If these situations happened often and I continued to "let it go" and not allow her to see natural consequences for her decisions, what kind of message does this send? Or does it?
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Jo
If you carry your toddler a lot because that's what he wants, maybe your daughter wanted a little bit of that too?
On 19 Feb 2012, at 01:44, "jennwells79" <jennwells79@...> wrote:
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> > I would have quickly taken the toddler in and asked her to wait for the few minutes that would take. Ran back out and carried her in. Then I would have run to the bathroom and peed.
> > I wouldn't have said anything about the shoes. She's six. Next time, stick some slip= on shoes in the car or just keep some always in the car (and a jacket and a change of clothes)
> > and there will be more options. Just one of probably many possible solutions. Gail
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> > I see what you are saying, but you don't think a 6 year old (almost 7) should bear any responsibility for those kinds of decisions? I reminded her that shoes would be a good idea before we left. My toddler would not have allowed me to just quickly drop him off and run back outside. He's a clinger...... and a screamer. That just seems like alot of work to save her from three or four steps on a gravel driveway. If these situations happened often and I continued to "let it go" and not allow her to see natural consequences for her decisions, what kind of message does this send? Or does it?
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Colleen
**what kind of message does this send? Or does it?**
I'd have brought the shoes along and offered them when she didn't want to get out on the gravel driveway in bare feet. It would have sent the message that you care about her and that even though she didn't want the shoes at the time she left the house, you knew that she might want them later. I've sometimes told my husband (we live where there are very cold winters) "oh we're just running out - I don't need my coat today" - and more than once I've been happy that he threw it in the car anyway, especially when the weather turned colder than I thought it would that day, or we decided last minute to do something outside where without a coat I'd be freezing. Caring for someone isn't a bad thing, especially when that someone is your child (or spouse).
Plus another good reason to throw the shoes in the car - if you ran out of gas, car broke down, you had a fender bender, she needed to run in somewhere with you to use a restroom, etc. - having the shoes with you "just in case" would have spared you trying to figure out what to do without them.
I'd have brought the shoes along and offered them when she didn't want to get out on the gravel driveway in bare feet. It would have sent the message that you care about her and that even though she didn't want the shoes at the time she left the house, you knew that she might want them later. I've sometimes told my husband (we live where there are very cold winters) "oh we're just running out - I don't need my coat today" - and more than once I've been happy that he threw it in the car anyway, especially when the weather turned colder than I thought it would that day, or we decided last minute to do something outside where without a coat I'd be freezing. Caring for someone isn't a bad thing, especially when that someone is your child (or spouse).
Plus another good reason to throw the shoes in the car - if you ran out of gas, car broke down, you had a fender bender, she needed to run in somewhere with you to use a restroom, etc. - having the shoes with you "just in case" would have spared you trying to figure out what to do without them.
Sandra Dodd
-=- I see what you are saying, but -=-
"Yeah, but."
"Yeah but" always means "no."
Rather than say no to people who are answering your question, please consider this:
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Your idea didn't work very well. If you thought it had, you wouldn't have asked for help. But it sounds like you might be wanting people to say, "There was no better way; what you did was perfect."
-=-you don't think a 6 year old (almost 7) should bear any responsibility for those kinds of decisions? -=-
What were your own responsibilities when you were six years old? Sometimes parents have resentments surface when a child gets to a certain age. You don't need to answer that question here, but maybe consider it. It might be that when you were six (almost 7) you went to school, or were in charge of something that seemed hard for you, or something stressful and when you see her, same age, cushy life, it might make you harsh inside. Resentful, or jealous.
-=- I reminded her that shoes would be a good idea before we left. -=-
If you knew shoes were a good idea, you should've taken some with you.
-=-My toddler would not have allowed me to just quickly drop him off and run back outside. He's a clinger...... and a screamer. -=-
Backpack? Stroller? Set him on the gravel while you move her closer to the door, then pick him up and move him closer to the door? Park in a different place so you could walk without the gravel problem? Take him in and let your mom hold him?
If there is no solution whatsoever and all our ideas stink, then there it is. You do what you would have done if you have never heard of unschooling.
What would that have been?
-=-That just seems like alot of work to save her from three or four steps on a gravel driveway. -=-
Could you have parked closer to the side of the driveway, if it was only three or four steps on a gravel driveway?
-=-If these situations happened often and I continued to "let it go" and not allow her to see natural consequences for her decisions, what kind of message does this send? -=-
What's your alternative to "let it go"?
Where did you get the idea of "natural consequences" which you seem to be wanting us to defend?
Here's what I thin, you should really consider:
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
Avoid the win/lose situation where you are allowing her to see natural consequences for her decision.
Become her partner.
Aim for peace and learning, joy and safety.
You're the more mature and experienced partner.
Sandra
"Yeah, but."
"Yeah but" always means "no."
Rather than say no to people who are answering your question, please consider this:
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Your idea didn't work very well. If you thought it had, you wouldn't have asked for help. But it sounds like you might be wanting people to say, "There was no better way; what you did was perfect."
-=-you don't think a 6 year old (almost 7) should bear any responsibility for those kinds of decisions? -=-
What were your own responsibilities when you were six years old? Sometimes parents have resentments surface when a child gets to a certain age. You don't need to answer that question here, but maybe consider it. It might be that when you were six (almost 7) you went to school, or were in charge of something that seemed hard for you, or something stressful and when you see her, same age, cushy life, it might make you harsh inside. Resentful, or jealous.
-=- I reminded her that shoes would be a good idea before we left. -=-
If you knew shoes were a good idea, you should've taken some with you.
-=-My toddler would not have allowed me to just quickly drop him off and run back outside. He's a clinger...... and a screamer. -=-
Backpack? Stroller? Set him on the gravel while you move her closer to the door, then pick him up and move him closer to the door? Park in a different place so you could walk without the gravel problem? Take him in and let your mom hold him?
If there is no solution whatsoever and all our ideas stink, then there it is. You do what you would have done if you have never heard of unschooling.
What would that have been?
-=-That just seems like alot of work to save her from three or four steps on a gravel driveway. -=-
Could you have parked closer to the side of the driveway, if it was only three or four steps on a gravel driveway?
-=-If these situations happened often and I continued to "let it go" and not allow her to see natural consequences for her decisions, what kind of message does this send? -=-
What's your alternative to "let it go"?
Where did you get the idea of "natural consequences" which you seem to be wanting us to defend?
Here's what I thin, you should really consider:
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
Avoid the win/lose situation where you are allowing her to see natural consequences for her decision.
Become her partner.
Aim for peace and learning, joy and safety.
You're the more mature and experienced partner.
Sandra
sheeboo2
It can be really hard for young children (and yes, 6 is still young) to see into the future. Personally, I would have taken a pair of shoes for her, without saying a word.
-----I see what you are saying, but you don't think a 6 year old (almost 7) should
bear any responsibility for those kinds of decisions? --------
How old are you? Have you ever made a choice that wasn't well thought out? When that happened, did your partner help you figure things out or tell you to deal with it on your own?
----That just seems like alot of work to save her from three or four steps on a gravel driveway. ----
Throwing an a pair of shoes in your bag is a lot of "extra work"?
Personally, it seems like far less work than calming down a crying child. All the little ways you offer support now, instead of coming from a place of godawful sentiments like, "I told you so," "suck it up," "you made your bed, now lie in it," will, in the future--tomorrow, even--add strength to your relationship. Your daughter will know that her mom is on her side, is her *partner*, instead of feeling like she's got to deal with things on her own.
-----If these situations happened often and I continued to "let it go" and not allow her to see natural consequences for her decisions, what kind of message does this send? ------
It sends the message that mom is looking out for her! That mom can be trusted and counted on. That mom will help find solutions when she's in a bind.
This isn't the last decision she'll make without thinking it through the end, clearly. If you want her to trust you later, when the consequences are more dire, support her, rather than try to teach her a lesson, now.
You can't force someone to mature quicker than she's able to. One day fairly soon, she'll be able to think further ahead, and even then, it is Always a good idea to have extra clothes, jackets and shoes in your car!
Brie
-----I see what you are saying, but you don't think a 6 year old (almost 7) should
bear any responsibility for those kinds of decisions? --------
How old are you? Have you ever made a choice that wasn't well thought out? When that happened, did your partner help you figure things out or tell you to deal with it on your own?
----That just seems like alot of work to save her from three or four steps on a gravel driveway. ----
Throwing an a pair of shoes in your bag is a lot of "extra work"?
Personally, it seems like far less work than calming down a crying child. All the little ways you offer support now, instead of coming from a place of godawful sentiments like, "I told you so," "suck it up," "you made your bed, now lie in it," will, in the future--tomorrow, even--add strength to your relationship. Your daughter will know that her mom is on her side, is her *partner*, instead of feeling like she's got to deal with things on her own.
-----If these situations happened often and I continued to "let it go" and not allow her to see natural consequences for her decisions, what kind of message does this send? ------
It sends the message that mom is looking out for her! That mom can be trusted and counted on. That mom will help find solutions when she's in a bind.
This isn't the last decision she'll make without thinking it through the end, clearly. If you want her to trust you later, when the consequences are more dire, support her, rather than try to teach her a lesson, now.
You can't force someone to mature quicker than she's able to. One day fairly soon, she'll be able to think further ahead, and even then, it is Always a good idea to have extra clothes, jackets and shoes in your car!
Brie
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 18, 2012, at 8:44 PM, jennwells79 wrote:
If your husband thought you're x years old and should know how to change your own oil, get things from high shelves, open jars and do all the little things you might ask him to do, and from now on shrugged when you asked him to help you, would you happily embrace those things and love him for requiring you be more independent from him?
Or might it seem like some odd power trip with him trying to mold you into the person he would like better?
Is she still wearing diapers? Is she still sitting so you need to carry her everywhere?
I know those sound like snarky questions, but they aren't. These weird common wisdoms about kids get passed around as if they were obvious truths. But it really means parents are listening to and looking to parents and experts and teachers, basically everywhere but looking right at their kids.
We humans, which includes kids, are driven to be competent at life. There's a really good TED talk on that:
Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us
http://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc
If you always trust she's doing the best she can, and if she isn't doing as well as she needs to, it means she needs help. And she'll come to you for help if she knows you're there with loving help as long as *she* needs it. She'll avoid coming to you with problems if she knows you'll look down your nose at her for not living up to what she should be in your eyes.
For some people, service is one of their love languages. They feel most loved when someone does something thoughtful for them. So when you say "No, I won't help you," it will sound like, "No, I don't love you enough to do that."
Have you read about the 5 love languages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Chapman_(author)
Joyce
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> but you don't think a 6 year old (almost 7) shouldDo you think withholding your help will make her do what you think she should?
If your husband thought you're x years old and should know how to change your own oil, get things from high shelves, open jars and do all the little things you might ask him to do, and from now on shrugged when you asked him to help you, would you happily embrace those things and love him for requiring you be more independent from him?
Or might it seem like some odd power trip with him trying to mold you into the person he would like better?
> f these situations happened often and I continued to "let it go"Do you believe she wants to be dependent on other people her whole life?
> and not allow her to see natural consequences for her decisions,
> what kind of message does this send? Or does it?
Is she still wearing diapers? Is she still sitting so you need to carry her everywhere?
I know those sound like snarky questions, but they aren't. These weird common wisdoms about kids get passed around as if they were obvious truths. But it really means parents are listening to and looking to parents and experts and teachers, basically everywhere but looking right at their kids.
We humans, which includes kids, are driven to be competent at life. There's a really good TED talk on that:
Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us
http://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc
If you always trust she's doing the best she can, and if she isn't doing as well as she needs to, it means she needs help. And she'll come to you for help if she knows you're there with loving help as long as *she* needs it. She'll avoid coming to you with problems if she knows you'll look down your nose at her for not living up to what she should be in your eyes.
For some people, service is one of their love languages. They feel most loved when someone does something thoughtful for them. So when you say "No, I won't help you," it will sound like, "No, I don't love you enough to do that."
Have you read about the 5 love languages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Chapman_(author)
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-What are your thoughts on this? For example, last week my 6-year-old decided she wasn't going to wear shoes to grandmas house. When we got there, she wanted me to carry her inside because the driveway is gravel and would hurt her feet. It was cold, windy, and I had my toddler to carry in and I had to pee.-=-
Pee before you put your kids in the car.
Rather than "let her decide" (and suffer natural consequences), explain that when it's cold shoes are important. If you can't be persuasive, take shoes with you.
-=-She was very upset, and I questioned if I had made the right decision not to "rescue" her from her own bad decision. -=-
"Rescue" shouldn't be in quotation marks. It would have been a real rescue.
But you would have been rescuing her from your bad decision, not from hers.
Sandra
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Pee before you put your kids in the car.
Rather than "let her decide" (and suffer natural consequences), explain that when it's cold shoes are important. If you can't be persuasive, take shoes with you.
-=-She was very upset, and I questioned if I had made the right decision not to "rescue" her from her own bad decision. -=-
"Rescue" shouldn't be in quotation marks. It would have been a real rescue.
But you would have been rescuing her from your bad decision, not from hers.
Sandra
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jennwells79
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>This need to contantly be finding (creating?) opportunities for so-called life lessons is definitely conditioned from my childhood. It doesn't feel right, hence the posting. I need to keep the word PARTNER in the forefront of my mind. Sad (and interesting because most people I know act this way) how I can be so giving and compassionate with others, but sometimes forget with my own children.
> -=-What are your thoughts on this? For example, last week my 6-year-old decided she wasn't going to wear shoes to grandmas house. When we got there, she wanted me to carry her inside because the driveway is gravel and would hurt her feet. It was cold, windy, and I had my toddler to carry in and I had to pee.-=-
>
> Pee before you put your kids in the car.
>
> Rather than "let her decide" (and suffer natural consequences), explain that when it's cold shoes are important. If you can't be persuasive, take shoes with you.
>
> -=-She was very upset, and I questioned if I had made the right decision not to "rescue" her from her own bad decision. -=-
>
> "Rescue" shouldn't be in quotation marks. It would have been a real rescue.
> But you would have been rescuing her from your bad decision, not from hers.
>
> Sandra
>
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>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 18, 2012, at 8:14 PM, jennwells79 wrote:
Really give that some thought! Why has going it alone, being separate from others, not needing others, been raised to such a high value? People praise 3 yos for being independent at nursery school. But it you step back away from that mindset, it's really incredibly warped.
Teenagers pull away because that's when they're biologically driven by a desire to "do it themselves" in a bigger, more adult way. But 6 yo? The more they're pushed towards (supposed) independence, the more they feel pushed away as people. It's not independence they end up embracing, it's the understanding that we don't help one another, that we don't bother other people when it's something we could do ourselves.
Joyce
> Rescuing children from natural consequencesWhy does it feel right for a 6 yo to be independent from a parent? Where in the world are 6 yos expected to be making decisions without the support of their parents?
Really give that some thought! Why has going it alone, being separate from others, not needing others, been raised to such a high value? People praise 3 yos for being independent at nursery school. But it you step back away from that mindset, it's really incredibly warped.
Teenagers pull away because that's when they're biologically driven by a desire to "do it themselves" in a bigger, more adult way. But 6 yo? The more they're pushed towards (supposed) independence, the more they feel pushed away as people. It's not independence they end up embracing, it's the understanding that we don't help one another, that we don't bother other people when it's something we could do ourselves.
Joyce
kristi_beguin
>>I see what you are saying, but you don't think a 6 year old (almost 7) should bear any responsibility for those kinds of decisions? I reminded her that shoes would be a good idea before we left.<<You should have brought her shoes. It takes only a couple of seconds to grab your kids' shoes, and knowing they are available will save a lot of work and emotion in the long run.
>>>That just seems like alot of work to save her from three or four steps on a gravel driveway.<<<I suggest you think about what you wrote. Will grabbing her shoes (or jacket, or sweater, or jacket, or extra pair of whatever) really be so much work that it's not worth doing (i.e., letting her know you care for her?)
>>>If these situations happened often and I continued to "let it go" and not allow her to see natural consequences for her decisions, what kind of message does this send? Or does it?<<<There is no guarantee that "natural consequences" will help your daughter become more independent, more prepared, more skilled at remembering what she needs. But if she has a Mom who remembers to throw in an extra pair of shoes, maybe a jacket, an extra shirt, a towel, and that sort of thing, it's likely she'll learn that keeping extras of those sorts of things is a good idea.
christinebgilbert
If you always have shoes in the car or with you, then you will teach her to want her shoes when she's older because she'll remember how nice it was to always have a pair around when she needed it. She doesn't have to actually walk on the gravel and hurt her feet to imagine that it wouldn't be nice. She can imagine. And then be grateful that you had a solution. She will learn.
--- In [email protected], "jennwells79" <jennwells79@...> wrote:
>
> What are your thoughts on this? For example, last week my 6-year-old decided she wasn't going to wear shoes to grandmas house. When we got there, she wanted me to carry her inside because the driveway is gravel and would hurt her feet. It was cold, windy, and I had my toddler to carry in and I had to pee. I told her she was just going to have to deal with it because she chose not to wear shoes. She was very upset, and I questioned if I had made the right decision not to "rescue" her from her own bad decision.
>
> Would you have handled this differently?
>
Jenny Cyphers
***...don't think a 6 year old (almost 7) should bear any responsibility for those kinds of decisions?***
***That just seems like alot of work to save her from three or four steps on a gravel driveway.***
The question to ask yourself is, "Was it more or less work than dealing with the fallout of an upset child and then spending a great deal of time dwelling on it and writing about it?"
Would it have more or less work to casually throw in a pair of shoes into a bag that you were already taking with? The question isn't whether or not the child should bear any responsibility, it's whether it's worth it to spend time dealing with the fall out of a child's bad decision that could easily be avoided if you stepped in to prevent an inevitable outcome or potential one.
We are talking about SHOES here. This is such a little thing. You are making a battle out of something that doesn't need to be a battle. Really.
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***That just seems like alot of work to save her from three or four steps on a gravel driveway.***
The question to ask yourself is, "Was it more or less work than dealing with the fallout of an upset child and then spending a great deal of time dwelling on it and writing about it?"
Would it have more or less work to casually throw in a pair of shoes into a bag that you were already taking with? The question isn't whether or not the child should bear any responsibility, it's whether it's worth it to spend time dealing with the fall out of a child's bad decision that could easily be avoided if you stepped in to prevent an inevitable outcome or potential one.
We are talking about SHOES here. This is such a little thing. You are making a battle out of something that doesn't need to be a battle. Really.
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Ed Wendell
Our son, Zachariah is 17 and is taking a college course at the community college this spring - Analytical Reading and Reasoning. He mostly does his homework by himself but occasionally he will ask me to be his sounding board and participate with him.
Right now they are working on anagrams and he is having fun running the analogies by me.
He COULD do it by himself - I could tell him to do it because it's HIS homework - but we are having fun laughing at some of the choices because they are so obviously silly and having debates about why we think our answer is the answer or discussions about why we both think the same answer is the answer. We also pulled dad into it when we were debating the answer.
When he went to class Friday he said he only missed two and almost everyone else missed most of them because they did not look words up in the dictionary as instructed. I commented that they probably did not have parents that sat down and went over things with them and had fun with it. They probably didn't even ask their parents to participate.
Lisa W.
Right now they are working on anagrams and he is having fun running the analogies by me.
He COULD do it by himself - I could tell him to do it because it's HIS homework - but we are having fun laughing at some of the choices because they are so obviously silly and having debates about why we think our answer is the answer or discussions about why we both think the same answer is the answer. We also pulled dad into it when we were debating the answer.
When he went to class Friday he said he only missed two and almost everyone else missed most of them because they did not look words up in the dictionary as instructed. I commented that they probably did not have parents that sat down and went over things with them and had fun with it. They probably didn't even ask their parents to participate.
Lisa W.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Fetteroll
It's not independence they end up embracing, it's the understanding that we don't help one another, that we don't bother other people when it's something we could do ourselves.
Joyce
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jennwells79
<<<<< If you always have shoes in the car or with you, then you will teach her to want her shoes when she's older because she'll remember how nice it was to always have a pair around when she needed it. She doesn't have to actually walk on the gravel and hurt her feet to imagine that it wouldn't be nice. She can imagine. And then be grateful that you had a solution. She will learn. <<<<<<<
But in the REAL world, people learn by suffering and going through bad things, right? (being facetious) Why do we need to be reminded that learning occurs (maybe mostly) through positive experiences? Cultural conditioning is strong. Thanks for this response, and everyone else's. I am looking forward to more insightful reading here, and I will withhold the urge to post a question every day, though I definitely have enough of them.
But in the REAL world, people learn by suffering and going through bad things, right? (being facetious) Why do we need to be reminded that learning occurs (maybe mostly) through positive experiences? Cultural conditioning is strong. Thanks for this response, and everyone else's. I am looking forward to more insightful reading here, and I will withhold the urge to post a question every day, though I definitely have enough of them.
Sandra Dodd
-=-If you always have shoes in the car or with you, then you will teach her to want her shoes when she's older because she'll remember how nice it was to always have a pair around when she needed it.-=-
If you can rephrase that to think "then you will help her learn..." rather than "then you will teach her..." that will be one giant step closer to unschooling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you can rephrase that to think "then you will help her learn..." rather than "then you will teach her..." that will be one giant step closer to unschooling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I just wrote this as part of a blog post this afternoon - haven't yet
published the blog post, but here is the relevant bit:
Sometimes people say they are using "logical" or "natural" consequences to
teach their children. These are typically euphemisms for a form of
punishment - a way to "negatively reinforce" certain behaviors. This is the
flip side of reward training. If a child leaves a toy outdoors and it
begins to rain, the parent may call it a natural or logical consequence to
leave the toy outdoors to be ruined. I call it mean and that is exactly
what the child will think of it.
Is there an alternative? Yes. Relationship-based parenting is living in a
household with each person giving and getting what they need, including
support and encouragement and information. Parents take responsibility for
being kind and generous with their children while their their children are
growing into kind and responsible people, themselves. The parents do this
by BEING kind and generous and responsible with their children. Children
learn what they live with.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
published the blog post, but here is the relevant bit:
Sometimes people say they are using "logical" or "natural" consequences to
teach their children. These are typically euphemisms for a form of
punishment - a way to "negatively reinforce" certain behaviors. This is the
flip side of reward training. If a child leaves a toy outdoors and it
begins to rain, the parent may call it a natural or logical consequence to
leave the toy outdoors to be ruined. I call it mean and that is exactly
what the child will think of it.
Is there an alternative? Yes. Relationship-based parenting is living in a
household with each person giving and getting what they need, including
support and encouragement and information. Parents take responsibility for
being kind and generous with their children while their their children are
growing into kind and responsible people, themselves. The parents do this
by BEING kind and generous and responsible with their children. Children
learn what they live with.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
Another way we assist a 17 year old college student is he does not have a driver's license so dad dives him 3 days a week to class, waits for him and then takes him back home.
Taking the placement test at the college and doing really well in English and Reading gave him the confidence to take the state permit driver's test. He passed that as well, so now he has chosen to learn to drive.
There is no linear time line in our lives for "should be doing this or that by now."
Lisa W.
Taking the placement test at the college and doing really well in English and Reading gave him the confidence to take the state permit driver's test. He passed that as well, so now he has chosen to learn to drive.
There is no linear time line in our lives for "should be doing this or that by now."
Lisa W.
----- Original Message -----
Our son, Zachariah is 17 and is taking a college course at the community college
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"I can be so giving and compassionate with others, but sometimes forget with my own children. "
That is a great question to ask yourself! Next time it may help you if you thought of your best friend or partner.
What would you do if it was them?
Would it make it for a better relationship?
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That is a great question to ask yourself! Next time it may help you if you thought of your best friend or partner.
What would you do if it was them?
Would it make it for a better relationship?
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 6:17 PM, sheeboo2 <brmino@...> wrote:
child is a teen, she will make mistakes and they might be serious. Are you
going to still say, "Well, I warned you and now you'll just have to live
with the consequences?" Kids need to know they can count on their parents
to help them cope with their own mistakes. It is the accumulation of these
experiences when young that leads directly to a trusting relationship later
when it is EXTREMELY important.
For example, what if she's out with friends who are drinking while driving?
Do you want her to feel free to call you and ask for a ride? Or do you want
her to think, "No, my mom will just say I got myself into this mess and I
should bear the consequences?"
You have about 6 years or so to build up the trust in your relationship to
be SO strong that the two of you will face stresses of being a teen in this
society as a team, rather than adversaries. THIS kind of situation, her
deciding not to take her shoes and then wanting to be carried, is EXACTLY
the opportunity to build that trusting relationship.
What if, at 13, you overheard her saying, "Ask MY mom? Are you kidding? She
won't help. She'll just tell me it is my own fault. When I was 6 years old
she made me walk painfully across hard gravel because I didn't take my
shoes with me to grandma's house."
If you think I'm kidding or exaggerating, a 20-something year old young man
recently told me he wasn't going to ask his mother to help him. He
complained about how his mother never really listened to him. His first
example? When he was little she used to give him soup that was too hot and
he'd burn his tongue on it and she KEPT doing it even when he'd told her
he'd burned his tongue. He said his mom would tell him, "The soup is hot,"
but he'd still have to taste it to find out if it was cooled down, and he
didn't wait long enough and burned his tongue.She wasn't sympathetic and
told him, "I told you it was hot, you should have waited longer." He was
still very resentful about how his mom treated him back when he was about 6
or 7 years old and that kind of thing had impacted their relationship quite
negatively.
He has younger siblings and I suspect the mom was harried and didn't have
time to deal with cooling a kid's soup down or checking it for him. She
probably felt like he should be able to handle checking the temperature of
a bowl of soup. But, to him, it felt very rejecting and he took it to mean
she didn't care about him.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>This isn't the last decision she'll make without thinking it throughOh THIS is the most important thing to consider...later, when your little
> the end, clearly. If you want her to trust you later, when the consequences
> are more dire, support her, rather than try to teach her a lesson, now.>>>
child is a teen, she will make mistakes and they might be serious. Are you
going to still say, "Well, I warned you and now you'll just have to live
with the consequences?" Kids need to know they can count on their parents
to help them cope with their own mistakes. It is the accumulation of these
experiences when young that leads directly to a trusting relationship later
when it is EXTREMELY important.
For example, what if she's out with friends who are drinking while driving?
Do you want her to feel free to call you and ask for a ride? Or do you want
her to think, "No, my mom will just say I got myself into this mess and I
should bear the consequences?"
You have about 6 years or so to build up the trust in your relationship to
be SO strong that the two of you will face stresses of being a teen in this
society as a team, rather than adversaries. THIS kind of situation, her
deciding not to take her shoes and then wanting to be carried, is EXACTLY
the opportunity to build that trusting relationship.
What if, at 13, you overheard her saying, "Ask MY mom? Are you kidding? She
won't help. She'll just tell me it is my own fault. When I was 6 years old
she made me walk painfully across hard gravel because I didn't take my
shoes with me to grandma's house."
If you think I'm kidding or exaggerating, a 20-something year old young man
recently told me he wasn't going to ask his mother to help him. He
complained about how his mother never really listened to him. His first
example? When he was little she used to give him soup that was too hot and
he'd burn his tongue on it and she KEPT doing it even when he'd told her
he'd burned his tongue. He said his mom would tell him, "The soup is hot,"
but he'd still have to taste it to find out if it was cooled down, and he
didn't wait long enough and burned his tongue.She wasn't sympathetic and
told him, "I told you it was hot, you should have waited longer." He was
still very resentful about how his mom treated him back when he was about 6
or 7 years old and that kind of thing had impacted their relationship quite
negatively.
He has younger siblings and I suspect the mom was harried and didn't have
time to deal with cooling a kid's soup down or checking it for him. She
probably felt like he should be able to handle checking the temperature of
a bowl of soup. But, to him, it felt very rejecting and he took it to mean
she didn't care about him.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Cultural conditioning is strong. -=-
But we all grew up in this culture, too. Every moment you spend looking at "cultural conditioning" is a moment you could have been gazing lovingly at your child.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2012/02/you-dont-need-to-break-your-bad-habits.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But we all grew up in this culture, too. Every moment you spend looking at "cultural conditioning" is a moment you could have been gazing lovingly at your child.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2012/02/you-dont-need-to-break-your-bad-habits.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
beamoogaloo
I live a barefoot lifestyle. From Feb/March until Oct/Nov my two boys mostly choose the same. They are 5 and 7 and have often chosen bare feet throughout life, not only the 18 months since I've been 24/7 barefoot.
Even when I think it's unlikely they'll want their shoes I try to always bring them with me in a rucksack. That's 8 months of carrying 2 pairs of shoes! But it means they can have the joy of being barefoot when they choose.
Lots of kids often want to go barefoot and I see many parents/carers telling them they have to keep their shoes on. But the benefits of barefoot are huge and the different sensations are, for the most part, a joy and a wonderful way to learn about all sorts of things.
Bea
Even when I think it's unlikely they'll want their shoes I try to always bring them with me in a rucksack. That's 8 months of carrying 2 pairs of shoes! But it means they can have the joy of being barefoot when they choose.
Lots of kids often want to go barefoot and I see many parents/carers telling them they have to keep their shoes on. But the benefits of barefoot are huge and the different sensations are, for the most part, a joy and a wonderful way to learn about all sorts of things.
Bea
Vicki Dennis
When my children were that age I tried to keep extra shoes (and jackets and
blankets) in the car all the time.
Especially since my younger child absolutely hated to wear shoes and I had
a few times of having to stop and buy cheap shoes before we could go in a
restaurant on a road trip.
When they were older and we coached soccer teams, we kept a whole sports
bag of cleats in various sizes, shinguards, sweaters, jackets, soft hats
because even teens with special equipment bags could manage to get 100
miles down the road and when the time came to change from street shoes to
cleats, discover they didn't have them.
I think Gail gave you some good solutions.
vicki
blankets) in the car all the time.
Especially since my younger child absolutely hated to wear shoes and I had
a few times of having to stop and buy cheap shoes before we could go in a
restaurant on a road trip.
When they were older and we coached soccer teams, we kept a whole sports
bag of cleats in various sizes, shinguards, sweaters, jackets, soft hats
because even teens with special equipment bags could manage to get 100
miles down the road and when the time came to change from street shoes to
cleats, discover they didn't have them.
I think Gail gave you some good solutions.
vicki
On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 7:30 PM, <gailbrocop@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
>
>
> I would have quickly taken the toddler in and asked her to wait for the
> few minutes that would take. Ran back out and carried her in. Then I would
> have run to the bathroom and peed.
> I wouldn't have said anything about the shoes. She's six. Next time, stick
> some slip= on shoes in the car or just keep some always in the car (and a
> jacket and a change of clothes)
> and there will be more options. Just one of probably many possible
> solutions. Gail
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Renee McGraw
On Feb 18, 2012 8:18 PM, "jennwells79" <jennwells79@...> wrote:
have had the same thoughts and feelings.
At first I really struggled with the idea of NOT letting my youngest suffer
�natural consequences".
I would say, "put your coat on, it's cold outside"
Kirsten would reply "but I'm not cold"
That old voice from the past would echo in my head......."fine, then just
be cold, you'll figure it out."
I'm amazed at how harsh that sounds to me now.
I have more experience predicting possible situations than my 7 year old
does.
By using my experience to prepare for her possible needs, I'm better able
to give Kirsten the confidence that I will help her be as comfortable as
possible, in whatever situation we might encounter.
Think not so much in terms of "rescuing her from bad decisions" and more
along the lines of being proactive in meeting the needs of a child in a
kind and non-condescending way.
Renee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>her own >bad decision.
>and I questioned if I had made the right decision not to "rescue" her from
>Honestly, the first time I would have put myself in this situation, I would
> Would you have handled this differently?
>
>
have had the same thoughts and feelings.
At first I really struggled with the idea of NOT letting my youngest suffer
�natural consequences".
I would say, "put your coat on, it's cold outside"
Kirsten would reply "but I'm not cold"
That old voice from the past would echo in my head......."fine, then just
be cold, you'll figure it out."
I'm amazed at how harsh that sounds to me now.
I have more experience predicting possible situations than my 7 year old
does.
By using my experience to prepare for her possible needs, I'm better able
to give Kirsten the confidence that I will help her be as comfortable as
possible, in whatever situation we might encounter.
Think not so much in terms of "rescuing her from bad decisions" and more
along the lines of being proactive in meeting the needs of a child in a
kind and non-condescending way.
Renee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PamelaC
I think the concept of "allowing children to experience natural consequences" is inherently false. If the original poster's daughter had reluctantly walked over the gravel, there would have been nothing real or natural about it because an adult was standing right there, capable of helping.
In stories with child protagonists, the first thing writers do is separate them from their parents (often by orphaning them) so that they MUST figure things out themselves. Home Alone, Finding Nemo, My Neighbor Totoro, Snow White, David Copperfield, the Pevensie children, Harry Potter, Hugo, Heidi, The Rescuers, Coraline, and on and on -- these all feature children with no choice but to solve their own problems, who have no kind or loving adults to turn to. If an adult is present and will not help, they become part of the problem, like the Dursleys or the parents in 'Mathilda'. On a gut level, readers and audiences (i.e., people) understand that letting a child founder is harsh. Our kids know it's harsh when we do it to them.
There is a world of difference between finding yourself in dire circumstances and being placed or left in dire circumstances by someone you love or depend on. Growth can't be manufactured that way, but resentment can.
In stories with child protagonists, the first thing writers do is separate them from their parents (often by orphaning them) so that they MUST figure things out themselves. Home Alone, Finding Nemo, My Neighbor Totoro, Snow White, David Copperfield, the Pevensie children, Harry Potter, Hugo, Heidi, The Rescuers, Coraline, and on and on -- these all feature children with no choice but to solve their own problems, who have no kind or loving adults to turn to. If an adult is present and will not help, they become part of the problem, like the Dursleys or the parents in 'Mathilda'. On a gut level, readers and audiences (i.e., people) understand that letting a child founder is harsh. Our kids know it's harsh when we do it to them.
There is a world of difference between finding yourself in dire circumstances and being placed or left in dire circumstances by someone you love or depend on. Growth can't be manufactured that way, but resentment can.
The Pommies
" Lots of kids often want to go barefoot and I see many parents/carers telling them they have to keep their shoes on. But the benefits of barefoot are huge and the different sensations are, for the most part, a joy and a wonderful way to learn about all sorts of things"
Oh I couldn't agree more. We emigrated from the UK to Australia 7 years ago and we were so shocked that people just walk around barefoot all the time - not just at the beach but in shops, supermarkets etc. We didn't like it at first, but now we love it. It feels so freeing to walk barefoot in the grass and the sand and..wherever.
Oh I couldn't agree more. We emigrated from the UK to Australia 7 years ago and we were so shocked that people just walk around barefoot all the time - not just at the beach but in shops, supermarkets etc. We didn't like it at first, but now we love it. It feels so freeing to walk barefoot in the grass and the sand and..wherever.