Making a better choice
annavblack99
Something really little but important happened at my house tonight that wouldn't have happened were it not for this list.
We were sitting down to eat dinner, I had brought everyone water with ice, my girls are obsessed with ice at the moment. We started eating and Abi said, 'did you put ice in my water?'. I said yes, but maybe it had melted already. She took a sip and said, a bit sadly,'it's not cold at all. [pause]. Oh, I wish I had some more ice.'
My first thoughts were something along the lines of, 'she wants me to get more ice, I'm TOO TIRED to get up again, I've just sat down, I'm sick of this ice nonsense...'. I managed to say nothing, which seemed the better option than sighing and refusing to get up, or getting up but clearly resenting it and making her feel bad.
I continued eating for a minute and it then struck me - if my husband had said that, or a friend,or my mother I would have got up immediately and happily to get more ice. So I turned to my girl and said, 'would you like me to get you some more ice darling?'. She said yes very happily and asked for five pieces, I brought her seven and a kiss.
I feel ashamed and sad that my previous irritation with being asked for things has made her unwilling to ask for what she wants. Thanks to this list I am now trying to begin to repair that damage.
Anna
Mother to Abigail, nearly five
and Evangeline, just turned two
We were sitting down to eat dinner, I had brought everyone water with ice, my girls are obsessed with ice at the moment. We started eating and Abi said, 'did you put ice in my water?'. I said yes, but maybe it had melted already. She took a sip and said, a bit sadly,'it's not cold at all. [pause]. Oh, I wish I had some more ice.'
My first thoughts were something along the lines of, 'she wants me to get more ice, I'm TOO TIRED to get up again, I've just sat down, I'm sick of this ice nonsense...'. I managed to say nothing, which seemed the better option than sighing and refusing to get up, or getting up but clearly resenting it and making her feel bad.
I continued eating for a minute and it then struck me - if my husband had said that, or a friend,or my mother I would have got up immediately and happily to get more ice. So I turned to my girl and said, 'would you like me to get you some more ice darling?'. She said yes very happily and asked for five pieces, I brought her seven and a kiss.
I feel ashamed and sad that my previous irritation with being asked for things has made her unwilling to ask for what she wants. Thanks to this list I am now trying to begin to repair that damage.
Anna
Mother to Abigail, nearly five
and Evangeline, just turned two
Sandra Dodd
-=-I continued eating for a minute and it then struck me - if my husband had said that, or a friend,or my mother I would have got up immediately and happily to get more ice. So I turned to my girl and said, 'would you like me to get you some more ice darling?'. She said yes very happily and asked for five pieces, I brought her seven and a kiss.-=-
You would easily be able to find people to tell you that was wrong, that you were spoiling her, ruining her life.
Ice and kisses are about the most plentiful and inexpensive things in the world, and I salute you. :-)
Ice can also be fun to play with outside (not in the winter, maybe, but on a hot day--you can write on hot concrete, or set it over a hot metal patten and it might make an impression in the ice.
It's great in the bathtub. It floats, and cleans itself up. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You would easily be able to find people to tell you that was wrong, that you were spoiling her, ruining her life.
Ice and kisses are about the most plentiful and inexpensive things in the world, and I salute you. :-)
Ice can also be fun to play with outside (not in the winter, maybe, but on a hot day--you can write on hot concrete, or set it over a hot metal patten and it might make an impression in the ice.
It's great in the bathtub. It floats, and cleans itself up. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
annavblack99
I hadn't even though of ice to ply a with. How embarrassing, I'm actually a trained early childhood teacher (eek!) and I'm usually pretty on top of suggesting activities guided by their interests. I guess I couldn't see past my annoyance with the ice thing.
It's summer here now, so perfect for ice playing. I'll start stockpiling it today. Thanks!
Anna
Mother of Abigail, nearly five
and Evangeline, nearly two
It's summer here now, so perfect for ice playing. I'll start stockpiling it today. Thanks!
Anna
Mother of Abigail, nearly five
and Evangeline, nearly two
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I continued eating for a minute and it then struck me - if my husband had said that, or a friend,or my mother I would have got up immediately and happily to get more ice. So I turned to my girl and said, 'would you like me to get you some more ice darling?'. She said yes very happily and asked for five pieces, I brought her seven and a kiss.-=-
>
> You would easily be able to find people to tell you that was wrong, that you were spoiling her, ruining her life.
>
> Ice and kisses are about the most plentiful and inexpensive things in the world, and I salute you. :-)
>
> Ice can also be fun to play with outside (not in the winter, maybe, but on a hot day--you can write on hot concrete, or set it over a hot metal patten and it might make an impression in the ice.
>
> It's great in the bathtub. It floats, and cleans itself up. :-)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- How embarrassing, I'm actually a trained early childhood teacher (eek!) -=-
It's certainly not something that could be done in school.
The only thing to be embarrassed about is the idea that being a trained early childhood teacher would help you with unschooling. It's quite likely going to make it more difficult. You'll need a extra huge period of deschooling.
-=-It's summer here now, so perfect for ice playing. I'll start stockpiling it today. Thanks! -=-
For the bathtub, you can freeze something into ice, like in a loaf pan. A bar of soap or a plastic toy.
We used to freeze ice in a mold shaped like a fish. It was "The ice fish."
For the bathtub. And a ring of ice made in a bundt pan or ring mold can be fun in the tub, too.
Frozen wash cloths. We used to keep a frozen wash cloth for "booboos," and it was fun to take in the tub.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's certainly not something that could be done in school.
The only thing to be embarrassed about is the idea that being a trained early childhood teacher would help you with unschooling. It's quite likely going to make it more difficult. You'll need a extra huge period of deschooling.
-=-It's summer here now, so perfect for ice playing. I'll start stockpiling it today. Thanks! -=-
For the bathtub, you can freeze something into ice, like in a loaf pan. A bar of soap or a plastic toy.
We used to freeze ice in a mold shaped like a fish. It was "The ice fish."
For the bathtub. And a ring of ice made in a bundt pan or ring mold can be fun in the tub, too.
Frozen wash cloths. We used to keep a frozen wash cloth for "booboos," and it was fun to take in the tub.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
annavblack99
You're right about the deschooling. It's a painful process. One thing I do still find useful though is the Montessori concept (that's my background) that anything a child is interested in/concentrating on is valuable and important for them and should be respected, facilitated and not interrupted. Lots of the other stuff I'm having to shed though. Just this morning I reframed, 'never do for the child what he can do for himself' to 'never do for the child what she WANTS to do for herself'.
It's funny, with the ice stuff, I have actually done quite a bit of ice stuff with kids at work. Ice in a water trough, plastic animals frozen in layers of ice, an 'ice berg' set up interest table with polar animals and books. Just not at home. I must have some disconnect going on.
It's funny, with the ice stuff, I have actually done quite a bit of ice stuff with kids at work. Ice in a water trough, plastic animals frozen in layers of ice, an 'ice berg' set up interest table with polar animals and books. Just not at home. I must have some disconnect going on.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- How embarrassing, I'm actually a trained early childhood teacher (eek!) -=-
>
> It's certainly not something that could be done in school.
> The only thing to be embarrassed about is the idea that being a trained early childhood teacher would help you with unschooling. It's quite likely going to make it more difficult. You'll need a extra huge period of deschooling.
>
> -=-It's summer here now, so perfect for ice playing. I'll start stockpiling it today. Thanks! -=-
>
> For the bathtub, you can freeze something into ice, like in a loaf pan. A bar of soap or a plastic toy.
>
> We used to freeze ice in a mold shaped like a fish. It was "The ice fish."
> For the bathtub. And a ring of ice made in a bundt pan or ring mold can be fun in the tub, too.
>
> Frozen wash cloths. We used to keep a frozen wash cloth for "booboos," and it was fun to take in the tub.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> >>>>-=- How embarrassing, I'm actually a trained early childhood teacher
> (eek!) -=-
>
> It's certainly not something that could be done in school.
> The only thing to be embarrassed about is the idea that being a trained
> early childhood teacher would help you with unschooling. It's quite likely
> going to make it more difficult. You'll need a extra huge period of
> deschooling.>>>>
>
On Jan 11, 2012, at 1:43 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
-=- How embarrassing, I'm actually a trained early childhood teacher (eek!)
-=-
It's certainly not something that could be done in school.
The only thing to be embarrassed about is the idea that being a trained
early childhood teacher would help you with unschooling. It's quite likely
going to make it more difficult. You'll need a extra huge period of
deschooling.>>
Depends on her "early childhood education" style.
Lots of early childhood educators learned a whole lot about natural
learning -- there was a sort of "movement" among them - mostly referred to
as "developmentally appropriate curriculum," which meant setting up a
stimulating learning environment for the kids to freely experience, not
"teaching" content, but allowing the children to explore and experiment and
play. Bev Bos is sort of the main "leader" of this stuff. My mom was one of
the leading proponents, as well. My mom's school had 3 to 6 year old kids 2
1/2 hours 3 days a week. There was no "teaching," no workbooks, no lessons,
almost no formal group time (stories being read aloud, singing together,
playing some simple games - the kids almost always came running to
participate in those - if they didn't, that was okay, too). They strongly
supported delayed academics - my mom worked for years to try to stop the
"pushing down" of academic curriculum. They thought too-early reading
instruction was responsible for reading disabilities�they talked a lot
about "the gift of time" and the "value of play."
This approach is ALL about supporting and enhancing the kids' interests. So
I think what this response meant was that she's usually more creative and
on-the-ball about recognizing an opportunity to support and enhance an
interest.
At my mom's school, if a kid showed a particular interest in ice, my mom
would have been putting out piles of ice cubes in a big bowl on a table and
the kids could do anything they wanted with them. She might have brought
out the shaved ice machine or the meat grinder to see if that would work on
ice. They'd probably make snow cones. They might use ice cubes to "paint
with water" - probably on the wall or sidewalk. They would play with ice
cubes in the sandbox outside. They'd give ice cubes to some of the animals
they had around - rabbits, ducks, guinea pigs, turtles, etc. She might have
bought a couple of big blocks of ice for the kids to climb on and slide on.
I'm sure she'd have other ideas - she always did.
After having been raised that way, myself (ALL learning through play and
fun and no reading instruction until I was in 2nd grade and 7 years old,
for example), and having my kids live that way for their early childhood, I
asked over and over - "WHY should this style of learning not be kept up -
what magically changes at 5 or 6 years old?" My mom hadn't really thought
past early childhood education - she knew this stuff was good for little
kids, but had apparently accepted that school-age kids needed "schooling."
She accepted unschooling, though, quite readily because it was very in sync
with her own early childhood learning ideas.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Oh my gosh...Montessorians have such a strange mix of useful ideas and,
imo, horrible practices.
There is that ridiculous "one right way" to play with the Montessori
equipment - the pink tower, for example. No imaginative play allowed - you
MUST stack them exactly as they are supposed to be stacked.
And "pretend" play is so very looked down upon. You don't find dress-ups
and pretend play stuff in a Montessori classroom - they should do "work"
(not play) and it should include window cleaning and sock sorting, but not
pretending to be a mommy nursing a baby. And, one thing at a time - they
should put one thing back before working with something else. A quiet
orderliness is highly valued. And then there is the whole very rigid way
the teacher is supposed to "introduce" a new type of "work." The "lesson"
that has to be done just right and the kids aren't allowed to even try to
do something until they've had the lesson given to them.
The one thing Montessori has going for it is the idea that each child
should be allowed to work on what they choose to work on (within the
confines of the materials offered to them) and that they can work at their
own level.
Otherwise, not much of use to unschoolers or helpful to someone trying to
"get" unschooling.
-pam
imo, horrible practices.
There is that ridiculous "one right way" to play with the Montessori
equipment - the pink tower, for example. No imaginative play allowed - you
MUST stack them exactly as they are supposed to be stacked.
And "pretend" play is so very looked down upon. You don't find dress-ups
and pretend play stuff in a Montessori classroom - they should do "work"
(not play) and it should include window cleaning and sock sorting, but not
pretending to be a mommy nursing a baby. And, one thing at a time - they
should put one thing back before working with something else. A quiet
orderliness is highly valued. And then there is the whole very rigid way
the teacher is supposed to "introduce" a new type of "work." The "lesson"
that has to be done just right and the kids aren't allowed to even try to
do something until they've had the lesson given to them.
The one thing Montessori has going for it is the idea that each child
should be allowed to work on what they choose to work on (within the
confines of the materials offered to them) and that they can work at their
own level.
Otherwise, not much of use to unschoolers or helpful to someone trying to
"get" unschooling.
-pam
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 2:26 PM, annavblack99 <anna.black@...> wrote:
> You're right about the deschooling. It's a painful process. One thing I do
> still find useful though is the Montessori concept (that's my background)
> that anything a child is interested in/concentrating on is valuable and
> important for them and should be respected, facilitated and not
> interrupted. Lots of the other stuff I'm having to shed though. Just this
> morning I reframed, 'never do for the child what he can do for himself' to
> 'never do for the child what she WANTS to do for herself'.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- They thought too-early reading
instruction was responsible for reading disabilities∑they talked a lot
about "the gift of time" and the "value of play."-=-
Well GOOD then!!
My experience has been friends who got a degree in early childhood ed and were experts in intervention and identifying problems of all sorts. Like triage teachers for special ed teachers in all directions.
Montessori and Steiner stuff doesn't impress me. As an exotic-seeming alternative to traditional public school, peachy. But as a basis for unschooling, I say dump it all and start with unschooling.
Sandra
instruction was responsible for reading disabilities∑they talked a lot
about "the gift of time" and the "value of play."-=-
Well GOOD then!!
My experience has been friends who got a degree in early childhood ed and were experts in intervention and identifying problems of all sorts. Like triage teachers for special ed teachers in all directions.
Montessori and Steiner stuff doesn't impress me. As an exotic-seeming alternative to traditional public school, peachy. But as a basis for unschooling, I say dump it all and start with unschooling.
Sandra
annavblack99
Thanks Pam.
In Australia, which is where I am, we call it play-based curriculum, and it's the norm here. Good early-childhood teachers and centers are pretty much exactly as you've described.
When I was teaching, it was in a.Montessori environment, so a little different in some ways but definitely very trustful and respectful of the child. Adult as facilitator, children interacting with a wonderfully rich environment, no forced group times, no group 'teaching', huge emphasis on following strengths and interests and always 'the gift of time'.
Still, there are also many aspects I am questioning and discarding, which is difficult. Montessori can be prescriptive and restrictive, although good teachers shouldn't be. Expectations of capability and independence is, I now think, too high. The suspicion of technology is also a problem I think now, although it was never specifically condemned by Montessori herself.
This isn't really about unschooling though, so I'll stop now.
Anna
Mother to Abigail, nearly five
and Evangeline, just turned two
In Australia, which is where I am, we call it play-based curriculum, and it's the norm here. Good early-childhood teachers and centers are pretty much exactly as you've described.
When I was teaching, it was in a.Montessori environment, so a little different in some ways but definitely very trustful and respectful of the child. Adult as facilitator, children interacting with a wonderfully rich environment, no forced group times, no group 'teaching', huge emphasis on following strengths and interests and always 'the gift of time'.
Still, there are also many aspects I am questioning and discarding, which is difficult. Montessori can be prescriptive and restrictive, although good teachers shouldn't be. Expectations of capability and independence is, I now think, too high. The suspicion of technology is also a problem I think now, although it was never specifically condemned by Montessori herself.
This isn't really about unschooling though, so I'll stop now.
Anna
Mother to Abigail, nearly five
and Evangeline, just turned two
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> > >>>>-=- How embarrassing, I'm actually a trained early childhood teacher
> > (eek!) -=-
> >
> > It's certainly not something that could be done in school.
> > The only thing to be embarrassed about is the idea that being a trained
> > early childhood teacher would help you with unschooling. It's quite likely
> > going to make it more difficult. You'll need a extra huge period of
> > deschooling.>>>>
> >
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2012, at 1:43 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> -=- How embarrassing, I'm actually a trained early childhood teacher (eek!)
> -=-
>
>
> It's certainly not something that could be done in school.
>
> The only thing to be embarrassed about is the idea that being a trained
> early childhood teacher would help you with unschooling. It's quite likely
> going to make it more difficult. You'll need a extra huge period of
> deschooling.>>
>
>
> Depends on her "early childhood education" style.
>
> Lots of early childhood educators learned a whole lot about natural
> learning -- there was a sort of "movement" among them - mostly referred to
> as "developmentally appropriate curriculum," which meant setting up a
> stimulating learning environment for the kids to freely experience, not
> "teaching" content, but allowing the children to explore and experiment and
> play. Bev Bos is sort of the main "leader" of this stuff. My mom was one of
> the leading proponents, as well. My mom's school had 3 to 6 year old kids 2
> 1/2 hours 3 days a week. There was no "teaching," no workbooks, no lessons,
> almost no formal group time (stories being read aloud, singing together,
> playing some simple games - the kids almost always came running to
> participate in those - if they didn't, that was okay, too). They strongly
> supported delayed academics - my mom worked for years to try to stop the
> "pushing down" of academic curriculum. They thought too-early reading
> instruction was responsible for reading disabilities they talked a lot
> about "the gift of time" and the "value of play."
>
> This approach is ALL about supporting and enhancing the kids' interests. So
> I think what this response meant was that she's usually more creative and
> on-the-ball about recognizing an opportunity to support and enhance an
> interest.
>
> At my mom's school, if a kid showed a particular interest in ice, my mom
> would have been putting out piles of ice cubes in a big bowl on a table and
> the kids could do anything they wanted with them. She might have brought
> out the shaved ice machine or the meat grinder to see if that would work on
> ice. They'd probably make snow cones. They might use ice cubes to "paint
> with water" - probably on the wall or sidewalk. They would play with ice
> cubes in the sandbox outside. They'd give ice cubes to some of the animals
> they had around - rabbits, ducks, guinea pigs, turtles, etc. She might have
> bought a couple of big blocks of ice for the kids to climb on and slide on.
> I'm sure she'd have other ideas - she always did.
>
> After having been raised that way, myself (ALL learning through play and
> fun and no reading instruction until I was in 2nd grade and 7 years old,
> for example), and having my kids live that way for their early childhood, I
> asked over and over - "WHY should this style of learning not be kept up -
> what magically changes at 5 or 6 years old?" My mom hadn't really thought
> past early childhood education - she knew this stuff was good for little
> kids, but had apparently accepted that school-age kids needed "schooling."
> She accepted unschooling, though, quite readily because it was very in sync
> with her own early childhood learning ideas.
>
> -pam
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
annavblack99
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
And then there is the whole very rigid way
>It's a bit more complicated than that. Using the pink tower as an example, while there is a particular way to present it to demonstrate the concept of mathematically correct dimension, once the material has been handed over to the child, he or she is free to explore it how he or she wants. If this isn't happening, then it's not a good environment.
> Oh my gosh...Montessorians have such a strange mix of useful ideas and,
> imo, horrible practices.
>
> There is that ridiculous "one right way" to play with the Montessori
> equipment - the pink tower, for example. No imaginative play allowed - you
> MUST stack them exactly as they are supposed to be stacked.
>Yes, this is true. It took having my own children to see how valuable and joyful pretend play and dress ups were. Montessori herself actually liked having dolls and teddies in the classroom, she thought it was important for emotional comfort. And she thought that children pretending to cook were doing a kind of second best thing and what they really needed was for adults to make room in their lives to allow children to participate in the real life of the household. I now think both are valuable for different reasons.
> And "pretend" play is so very looked down upon. You don't find dress-ups
> and pretend play stuff in a Montessori classroom - they should do "work"
> (not play) and it should include window cleaning and sock sorting, but not
> pretending to be a mommy nursing a baby. And, one thing at a time - they
> should put one thing back before working with something else. A quiet
> orderliness is highly valued.
And then there is the whole very rigid way
> the teacher is supposed to "introduce" a new type of "work." The "lesson"Again, it's a bit more complicated than this, or should be. A child can be presented something by the teacher, by another child, or by watching another child be presented something. In my classroom if a child took something out he/she hadn't been shown I took it as my cue to sit down immediately and help the child explore.
> that has to be done just right and the kids aren't allowed to even try to
> do something until they've had the lesson given to them.
>Yes, I'd say that's pretty true. There might be other Montessorians struggling to come to unschooling though.
> The one thing Montessori has going for it is the idea that each child
> should be allowed to work on what they choose to work on (within the
> confines of the materials offered to them) and that they can work at their
> own level.
>
> Otherwise, not much of use to unschoolers or helpful to someone trying to
> "get" unschooling.
>
> -pam
>
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 2:26 PM, annavblack99 <anna.black@...> wrote:
>
> > You're right about the deschooling. It's a painful process. One thing I do
> > still find useful though is the Montessori concept (that's my background)
> > that anything a child is interested in/concentrating on is valuable and
> > important for them and should be respected, facilitated and not
> > interrupted. Lots of the other stuff I'm having to shed though. Just this
> > morning I reframed, 'never do for the child what he can do for himself' to
> > 'never do for the child what she WANTS to do for herself'.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
annavblack99
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Abi is right now attending a really good montessori pre-school, and I was wavering about taking her out, but she's very happy there right now and my husband really wants her to finish the program (two more years). He is also adamant that Evie attend for three years, after which both girls will be unschooled. I don't know exactly what will happen, perhaps he'll come around, but although I am feeling uneasy about having them in a school (and probably shouldn't be posting here at all, as I'm in no way an unschooler) he has as much right as I do to decide where they will go.
I do comfort myself with the knowledge that it's a great environment as far as schools go and that they will be home with me in a couple of years. I hope it's not a false comfort.
I'm happy to go back to reading and not posting until we are actually unschooling, Sandra if that would be better for the list.
Anna
Mother of Abigail, nearly five
and Evangeline, just turned two
>Yes, I'm starting to see that. At first I thought I could kind of just tweak the outsides a bit, but keep most of my dearly-held Montessori principles, but I'm starting to see that's not going to work. It's hard for my husband though, as I've spent the last ten years extolling the virtues of all things Montessori, thoroughly convinced him, and now I'm changing my mind.
> -=- They thought too-early reading
> instruction was responsible for reading disabilitiesâ`they talked a lot
> about "the gift of time" and the "value of play."-=-
>
> Well GOOD then!!
>
> My experience has been friends who got a degree in early childhood ed and were experts in intervention and identifying problems of all sorts. Like triage teachers for special ed teachers in all directions.
>
> Montessori and Steiner stuff doesn't impress me. As an exotic-seeming alternative to traditional public school, peachy. But as a basis for unschooling, I say dump it all and start with unschooling.
>
Abi is right now attending a really good montessori pre-school, and I was wavering about taking her out, but she's very happy there right now and my husband really wants her to finish the program (two more years). He is also adamant that Evie attend for three years, after which both girls will be unschooled. I don't know exactly what will happen, perhaps he'll come around, but although I am feeling uneasy about having them in a school (and probably shouldn't be posting here at all, as I'm in no way an unschooler) he has as much right as I do to decide where they will go.
I do comfort myself with the knowledge that it's a great environment as far as schools go and that they will be home with me in a couple of years. I hope it's not a false comfort.
I'm happy to go back to reading and not posting until we are actually unschooling, Sandra if that would be better for the list.
Anna
Mother of Abigail, nearly five
and Evangeline, just turned two
> Sandra
>
Pam Sorooshian
Montessori preschools are 9 am to 3 pm - all day - types of schools. That's
too long away from a parent, imo.
When my daughter was 5, she was old enough for kindergarten, but just made
the deadline by 3 days. So we thought maybe a montessori preschool would be
a better choice. After the first week I convinced them to let her go
half-days (they still charged me almost the same, but "let" me take her
home at lunchtime. She went there for a few months - enjoyed it, but it was
too restrictive for long term without pretend play or more freedom in arts
and music and so on.
Anyway - it is a really far cry from unschooling, but it was a step toward
it from regular curriculum-based schooling. Maybe you could get your
husband to send her just part time - that would be a further step.
-pam
too long away from a parent, imo.
When my daughter was 5, she was old enough for kindergarten, but just made
the deadline by 3 days. So we thought maybe a montessori preschool would be
a better choice. After the first week I convinced them to let her go
half-days (they still charged me almost the same, but "let" me take her
home at lunchtime. She went there for a few months - enjoyed it, but it was
too restrictive for long term without pretend play or more freedom in arts
and music and so on.
Anyway - it is a really far cry from unschooling, but it was a step toward
it from regular curriculum-based schooling. Maybe you could get your
husband to send her just part time - that would be a further step.
-pam
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 4:16 PM, annavblack99 <anna.black@...> wrote:
> Abi is right now attending a really good montessori pre-school, and I was
> wavering about taking her out, but she's very happy there right now and my
> husband really wants her to finish the program (two more years).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- The suspicion of technology is also a problem I think now, although it was never specifically condemned by Montessori herself.
-=-This isn't really about unschooling though, so I'll stop now.-=-
It's about unschooling in that many people think unschooling is just one step away from Montessori, so more information can be interesting.
What technology could she have objected to, though when she was writing? Radio? The automobile?
Principles work better than prescriptions because they take into account unexpected changes in the world. :-)
If a person looks at her own child and then thinks "what would a long-dead woman want me to do?" the relationship between that parent and child has a big gap in it. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-This isn't really about unschooling though, so I'll stop now.-=-
It's about unschooling in that many people think unschooling is just one step away from Montessori, so more information can be interesting.
What technology could she have objected to, though when she was writing? Radio? The automobile?
Principles work better than prescriptions because they take into account unexpected changes in the world. :-)
If a person looks at her own child and then thinks "what would a long-dead woman want me to do?" the relationship between that parent and child has a big gap in it. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Abi is right now attending a really good montessori pre-school, and I was wavering about taking her out, but she's very happy there right now and my husband really wants her to finish the program (two more years). He is also adamant that Evie attend for three years, after which both girls will be unschooled. I don't know exactly what will happen, perhaps he'll come around, but although I am feeling uneasy about having them in a school (and probably shouldn't be posting here at all, as I'm in no way an unschooler) he has as much right as I do to decide where they will go. -=-
-=-he has as much right as I do to decide where they will go. -=-
If you get to the point that you think they have more right to decide where to go than either or both of you have to decide for them, then you'll be on the verge of unschooling. :-)
I don't mind you chatting about ice, but once you mention your own feelings or your professional training, you should also say "My kids are in school, but..."
It's been a rough day and a half on the list.
:-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-he has as much right as I do to decide where they will go. -=-
If you get to the point that you think they have more right to decide where to go than either or both of you have to decide for them, then you'll be on the verge of unschooling. :-)
I don't mind you chatting about ice, but once you mention your own feelings or your professional training, you should also say "My kids are in school, but..."
It's been a rough day and a half on the list.
:-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
annavblack99
Well she was writing well into the 50s, so television would have been around. I actually haven't read anything she said specifically about it.
It's mostly for the under sixes that technology is shunned, because of the great emphasis on the work of the hand. That's the principle at work - that children need to do things physically to allow optimum development of all their abilities due to the hand/brain development connection. Right now I think the feeling is that computer/tv etc won't hurt necessarily, but that it doesn't contribute to children's development in the same way that working with their hands will.
I'd say you're absolutely right about using Montessori principles creating a gap in the relationship. Looking back, that's what happened in mine and my daughter's. We are in the process of healing that now.
Anna
It's mostly for the under sixes that technology is shunned, because of the great emphasis on the work of the hand. That's the principle at work - that children need to do things physically to allow optimum development of all their abilities due to the hand/brain development connection. Right now I think the feeling is that computer/tv etc won't hurt necessarily, but that it doesn't contribute to children's development in the same way that working with their hands will.
I'd say you're absolutely right about using Montessori principles creating a gap in the relationship. Looking back, that's what happened in mine and my daughter's. We are in the process of healing that now.
Anna
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- The suspicion of technology is also a problem I think now, although it was never specifically condemned by Montessori herself.
>
> -=-This isn't really about unschooling though, so I'll stop now.-=-
>
> It's about unschooling in that many people think unschooling is just one step away from Montessori, so more information can be interesting.
>
> What technology could she have objected to, though when she was writing? Radio? The automobile?
>
> Principles work better than prescriptions because they take into account unexpected changes in the world. :-)
>
> If a person looks at her own child and then thinks "what would a long-dead woman want me to do?" the relationship between that parent and child has a big gap in it. :-)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 11, 2012, at 6:39 PM, annavblack99 wrote:
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> very trustful and respectful of the child. Adult as facilitator, childrenA seed you might plant for your husband so it doesn't seem like you've totally changed your mind is that for mass education, Montessori is a very good environment. Compared to regular classrooms, Montessori is much closer to allowing kids to learn naturally. But the classroom is an artificial environment and limits what and how kids are able to explore. If kids have the opportunity to learn from life, to have one on one interaction with their parent, to explore their interests freely, then that's even better than Montessori.
> interacting with a wonderfully rich environment, no forced group
> times, no group 'teaching', huge emphasis on following strengths
> and interests and always 'the gift of time'.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<"A seed you might plant for your husband so it doesn't seem like you've totally changed your mind is that for mass education, Montessori is a very good environment. Compared to regular classrooms, Montessori is much closer to allowing kids to learn naturally. But the classroom is an artificial environment and limits what and how kids are able to explore. If kids have the opportunity to learn from life, to have one on one interaction with their parent, to explore their interests freely, then that's even better than Montessori.">>>>>
Absolutely because if you read Maria Montessori's work she created the method for children with mental disabilities that were in institutions. She wanted to bring natural learning to them , as they would learn at home. Then that was adapted to low income children, who;s parents were absent at war or working. Those were kids left alone in the streets all day. She wanted to create a home environment where they could learn naturally like if they were home with parents. She says several times in her books how parents are very important and kids should be with parents but those kids did not have available parents. Also Maria herself left her son for someone else to raise and she was not part of his life growing up. Then when he was an adult he joined her and had his own ideas about the method. A lot of what is done now in Montessori come from his ideas which I really do not like.
Reading Maria I would assume that she would probably really agree with unschooling.. Kids learning naurally from life with attentive and connected, present parents.
All that she was trying to create for children that did not have it.
Anyways, my mom is a Montessori teacher and has translated Maria's work into Portuguese and has a lot of knowledge about what Maria really did believe according to her own words. I have read a couple of her books too years ago.
I am surprised that people do not see how what Maria Montessori was creating was a substitute to a loving home where children could learn naturally from life.
She did not even want trained teachers to be with the kids in class!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Absolutely because if you read Maria Montessori's work she created the method for children with mental disabilities that were in institutions. She wanted to bring natural learning to them , as they would learn at home. Then that was adapted to low income children, who;s parents were absent at war or working. Those were kids left alone in the streets all day. She wanted to create a home environment where they could learn naturally like if they were home with parents. She says several times in her books how parents are very important and kids should be with parents but those kids did not have available parents. Also Maria herself left her son for someone else to raise and she was not part of his life growing up. Then when he was an adult he joined her and had his own ideas about the method. A lot of what is done now in Montessori come from his ideas which I really do not like.
Reading Maria I would assume that she would probably really agree with unschooling.. Kids learning naurally from life with attentive and connected, present parents.
All that she was trying to create for children that did not have it.
Anyways, my mom is a Montessori teacher and has translated Maria's work into Portuguese and has a lot of knowledge about what Maria really did believe according to her own words. I have read a couple of her books too years ago.
I am surprised that people do not see how what Maria Montessori was creating was a substitute to a loving home where children could learn naturally from life.
She did not even want trained teachers to be with the kids in class!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 2:31 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
Montessori-at-home approach and then relax away from even that (easy to do
since Montessori is really aimed at pre-school children, mostly). If you
haven't seen the Michael Olaf Montessori catalog - the articles IN the
catalog are a great justification for unschooling. (I hope they're still
available - haven't looked at it in years, but google it and find out.)
Also - for reluctant spouses - you might show them the "unschooling course
of study" that is on Sandra's website. The descriptions of how kids will be
exposed to all the various academic subjects could be really useful and,
again, sort of sounds like it fits in with a Montessori approach for older
kids (where kids work independently on their own projects at their own
speed). This is a link to the one that I wrote for elementary school age
children - in California we homeschool as our own private schools and are
supposed to have a course of study on file....so that is what this is. <
http://sandradodd.com/acme1>
-pam
>I was thinking the same thing, plus you could start homeschooling with a
> A seed you might plant for your husband so it doesn't seem like you've
> totally changed your mind is that for mass education, Montessori is a very
> good environment. Compared to regular classrooms, Montessori is much closer
> to allowing kids to learn naturally. But the classroom is an artificial
> environment and limits what and how kids are able to explore. If kids have
> the opportunity to learn from life, to have one on one interaction with
> their parent, to explore their interests freely, then that's even better
> than Montessori.>>>>
Montessori-at-home approach and then relax away from even that (easy to do
since Montessori is really aimed at pre-school children, mostly). If you
haven't seen the Michael Olaf Montessori catalog - the articles IN the
catalog are a great justification for unschooling. (I hope they're still
available - haven't looked at it in years, but google it and find out.)
Also - for reluctant spouses - you might show them the "unschooling course
of study" that is on Sandra's website. The descriptions of how kids will be
exposed to all the various academic subjects could be really useful and,
again, sort of sounds like it fits in with a Montessori approach for older
kids (where kids work independently on their own projects at their own
speed). This is a link to the one that I wrote for elementary school age
children - in California we homeschool as our own private schools and are
supposed to have a course of study on file....so that is what this is. <
http://sandradodd.com/acme1>
-pam
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
delphini004
> -=- if a friend as said that... I would have got up immediately and happily to get more ice.-=-That's what is happening to me since a couple of years, more since I read here or everywhere I can read Sandra, or Pam, or Joyce and a lot of parents on this list (sorry, I don't know all of your names, but I sincerely love you and thank you all).
And thank you to you, Anna, to took time to share this moment of your life. I appreciate. To me, that's love spreaded all around.
> ---**You would easily be able to find people to tell you that was wrong, that you were spoiling her, ruining her life.**---A lot of people around us who told me that a lot of times. I sometimes managed to not let them convince me but it was hard. And sometimes I didn't and their comments continued to haunt me days and nights.
---** Ice and kisses are about the most plentiful and inexpensive things in the world, and I salute you. :-) **---
It's very touching to read those words, from a mom to another mom.
---** Ice can also be fun to play with outside (not in the winter, maybe, but on a hot day--you can write on hot concrete, or set it over a hot metal patten and it might make an impression in the ice. > It's great in the bathtub. It floats, and cleans itself up. :-) **---
Here, ice was - and is - so fun to play with even in winter. Yesterday night, just before going to bed, my son (14) opened a window upstair and gently take a big, so big ice stick (looking like a stalactite) hanging from the roof above the window, and he put in the freezer, as when he was little. He was so happy ! ;-)
Edith
delphini004
**--- If you get to the point that you think they have more right to decide where to go than either or both of you have to decide for them, then you'll be on the verge of unschooling. :-) ---**
Edith
>I think this could be a good post for Just Add Light And Stir.
Edith
Catherine Hassall
re. ice play
we also make ice castles:
freeze lots of different sized plastic containers full of water
and then empty out onto the ground and arrange in castle stacks
. . watch them melt
also ice boats:
fill a take-away or ice cream container etc with water
some food colouring
and blue-tac a skewer to the bottom
standing up so you can
push a piece of paper onto it as a sail
when its frozen
the ice-boat in water
. . and watch it melt
blow on the sail . . .
and freezing things in ice is nice
like flowers and glitter
you can put string in the water
and then hang the ice up in a tree
and look at the beautiful things in the ice
as it melts
this works also with filling a balloon
with water and pretty things
and then take the balloon off
and float or hang
we love ice
here in the tropics
xcat
we also make ice castles:
freeze lots of different sized plastic containers full of water
and then empty out onto the ground and arrange in castle stacks
. . watch them melt
also ice boats:
fill a take-away or ice cream container etc with water
some food colouring
and blue-tac a skewer to the bottom
standing up so you can
push a piece of paper onto it as a sail
when its frozen
the ice-boat in water
. . and watch it melt
blow on the sail . . .
and freezing things in ice is nice
like flowers and glitter
you can put string in the water
and then hang the ice up in a tree
and look at the beautiful things in the ice
as it melts
this works also with filling a balloon
with water and pretty things
and then take the balloon off
and float or hang
we love ice
here in the tropics
xcat
annavblack99
Yes, I think I am going to start planting those seeds. I think, although my husband is very supportive of homeschooling generally, we haven't discussed unschooling in much detail and I think he feels more comfortable with the idea that the girls will be getting a foundation with lots of things before we start. I don't feel that way, but I have done a lot more reading and thinking about unschooling.
The links are great, and I know Sandra has collected some specifically aimed at dads, so I will start sending those over too.
Alex, I enjoyed reading your post very much. I also believe that Montessori would have been a supporter of unschooling, as you say, her first environments were set up to mimic the home environment as closely as possible. I have always felt it was so sad that she was such an advocate for children and children and parents/mothers that she couldn't raise her own child until after her mother died. It must have been very painful
I would also say that although there are many many aspects of Montessori-as-practiced which are not congruent with unschooling principles, what I have taken from it is a deep trust that a child in his or her natural state has a great desire to learn and that if we can keep out of the way, provide a wonderful rich environment and be a loving presence, that child will blossom and learn exactly as they are supposed to.
Right now we are having our long summer break (7 weeks) so I am pretending we are already unschooling! Today we are going to play with ice, make playdough, make sushi, watch a Faries DVD, play with the dog, read a book Abi wanted to order about early humans and who knows what else? We may or may not get out of our pyjamas.
Anna
Mother to Abigail, nearly five
and Evangeline, just turned two
The links are great, and I know Sandra has collected some specifically aimed at dads, so I will start sending those over too.
Alex, I enjoyed reading your post very much. I also believe that Montessori would have been a supporter of unschooling, as you say, her first environments were set up to mimic the home environment as closely as possible. I have always felt it was so sad that she was such an advocate for children and children and parents/mothers that she couldn't raise her own child until after her mother died. It must have been very painful
I would also say that although there are many many aspects of Montessori-as-practiced which are not congruent with unschooling principles, what I have taken from it is a deep trust that a child in his or her natural state has a great desire to learn and that if we can keep out of the way, provide a wonderful rich environment and be a loving presence, that child will blossom and learn exactly as they are supposed to.
Right now we are having our long summer break (7 weeks) so I am pretending we are already unschooling! Today we are going to play with ice, make playdough, make sushi, watch a Faries DVD, play with the dog, read a book Abi wanted to order about early humans and who knows what else? We may or may not get out of our pyjamas.
Anna
Mother to Abigail, nearly five
and Evangeline, just turned two
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 2:31 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
>
> >
> > A seed you might plant for your husband so it doesn't seem like you've
> > totally changed your mind is that for mass education, Montessori is a very
> > good environment. Compared to regular classrooms, Montessori is much closer
> > to allowing kids to learn naturally. But the classroom is an artificial
> > environment and limits what and how kids are able to explore. If kids have
> > the opportunity to learn from life, to have one on one interaction with
> > their parent, to explore their interests freely, then that's even better
> > than Montessori.>>>>
>
>
>
> I was thinking the same thing, plus you could start homeschooling with a
> Montessori-at-home approach and then relax away from even that (easy to do
> since Montessori is really aimed at pre-school children, mostly). If you
> haven't seen the Michael Olaf Montessori catalog - the articles IN the
> catalog are a great justification for unschooling. (I hope they're still
> available - haven't looked at it in years, but google it and find out.)
>
> Also - for reluctant spouses - you might show them the "unschooling course
> of study" that is on Sandra's website. The descriptions of how kids will be
> exposed to all the various academic subjects could be really useful and,
> again, sort of sounds like it fits in with a Montessori approach for older
> kids (where kids work independently on their own projects at their own
> speed). This is a link to the one that I wrote for elementary school age
> children - in California we homeschool as our own private schools and are
> supposed to have a course of study on file....so that is what this is. <
> http://sandradodd.com/acme1>
>
> -pam
>
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<"Right now we are having our long summer break (7 weeks) so I am pretending we are already unschooling! Today we are going to play with ice, make playdough, make sushi, watch a Faries DVD, play with the dog, read a book Abi wanted to order about early humans and who knows what else? We may or may not get out of our pyjamas.">>>>
Do not pretend you are unschooling. Your children will need to deschool before real unschooling begins, they are after all in schoo
You will need to deschool together with them but that is going to be hard while they are still at school, even a nice fun preschool .
Better than pretending you are unschooling have a super Summer Vacation! Have fun, play with your children and above all strengthen even more your relationship with them. Do not spend your vacation with an agenda to see how unschooling will work or pretending you are unschooling.
Alex Polikowsky
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Do not pretend you are unschooling. Your children will need to deschool before real unschooling begins, they are after all in schoo
You will need to deschool together with them but that is going to be hard while they are still at school, even a nice fun preschool .
Better than pretending you are unschooling have a super Summer Vacation! Have fun, play with your children and above all strengthen even more your relationship with them. Do not spend your vacation with an agenda to see how unschooling will work or pretending you are unschooling.
Alex Polikowsky
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Do not spend your vacation with an agenda to see how unschooling will work or pretending you are unschooling. -=-
I agree with Alex.
And it might not make any difference in what you're doing, just what you're calling it and the way you're thinking about it.
ESPECIALLY don't say "we unschooled for the summer." That's a horrible thing to think (muddles you all up) and it confuses unschooling with any fun family vacation. Kids who have gone to school have earned a full-on vacation, too. It's part of "the school year."
Maybe your kids will love doing all kinds of stuff for fun, but please think of it as vacation and fun, not as unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I agree with Alex.
And it might not make any difference in what you're doing, just what you're calling it and the way you're thinking about it.
ESPECIALLY don't say "we unschooled for the summer." That's a horrible thing to think (muddles you all up) and it confuses unschooling with any fun family vacation. Kids who have gone to school have earned a full-on vacation, too. It's part of "the school year."
Maybe your kids will love doing all kinds of stuff for fun, but please think of it as vacation and fun, not as unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
annavblack99
Yes, I see what you mean. My little one isn't in any type of school though, and I'm hoping she won't be, she still has another year for me to convince my husband.
I don't really think what we're doing is unschooling, of course, it was a lighthearted comment, but I should be much more careful with the words I use, to keep things clear on the list. And now I am examining my thoughts more closely too, so I appreciate the reminder.
I don't really think what we're doing is unschooling, of course, it was a lighthearted comment, but I should be much more careful with the words I use, to keep things clear on the list. And now I am examining my thoughts more closely too, so I appreciate the reminder.
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> <<<"Right now we are having our long summer break (7 weeks) so I am pretending we are already unschooling! Today we are going to play with ice, make playdough, make sushi, watch a Faries DVD, play with the dog, read a book Abi wanted to order about early humans and who knows what else? We may or may not get out of our pyjamas.">>>>
>
>
> Do not pretend you are unschooling. Your children will need to deschool before real unschooling begins, they are after all in schoo
> You will need to deschool together with them but that is going to be hard while they are still at school, even a nice fun preschool .
> Better than pretending you are unschooling have a super Summer Vacation! Have fun, play with your children and above all strengthen even more your relationship with them. Do not spend your vacation with an agenda to see how unschooling will work or pretending you are unschooling.
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Pam Sorooshian
>Yay. That's the connection that so many people don't see. They think we're
> <<<.....I should be much more careful with the words I use, to keep things
> clear on the list. And now I am examining my thoughts more closely
> too....>>>>
>
on a power trip and trying to control people by insisting on "our"
definitions. But we're so NOT on a power trip that we're the ones who are
refusing to tell people what to do - refusing even when people almost beg
for it. Refusing even to accept money for doing it when money is out there
and available.
This list is truly all about helping others the develop the power to think
for themselves - to think clearly and coherently and to be able to
separate logical and good-hearted thinking right now from old childhood
recordings playing in their heads, unfounded fears, and cultural
conventions bombarding them from family, friends, and so-called experts.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-This list is truly all about helping others the develop the power to think
for themselves - to think clearly and coherently and to be able to
separate logical and good-hearted thinking right now from old childhood
recordings playing in their heads, unfounded fears, and cultural
conventions bombarding them from family, friends, and so-called experts.-=-
I have a secondary goal.
From all that practice discussing unschooling clearly come some strong voices well worth quoting on webpages that people can read easily for years to come. :-)
We're not only helping people have better relationships at home, we're giving some people a chance to find out that they're especially good at explaining this and at helping others!
Another thing I really enjoy as a side benefit is getting to share in the enthusiasm of someone who hasn't done a lot of writing who writes something that truly changes another person's life. And the best way to really understand something is to explain it clearly to another person.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for themselves - to think clearly and coherently and to be able to
separate logical and good-hearted thinking right now from old childhood
recordings playing in their heads, unfounded fears, and cultural
conventions bombarding them from family, friends, and so-called experts.-=-
I have a secondary goal.
From all that practice discussing unschooling clearly come some strong voices well worth quoting on webpages that people can read easily for years to come. :-)
We're not only helping people have better relationships at home, we're giving some people a chance to find out that they're especially good at explaining this and at helping others!
Another thing I really enjoy as a side benefit is getting to share in the enthusiasm of someone who hasn't done a lot of writing who writes something that truly changes another person's life. And the best way to really understand something is to explain it clearly to another person.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]