jenlea79

Hi! I've been a member of this group for a while, but I don't think I've posted before. I am trying to gain a different perspective/better insight into a few issues I'm having at home. Hope that's okay for my first post!

First, with regard to homeschooling, I keep going back and forth from completely free learning with my 6 year old, to needing/wanting seim-structured and planned lessons and activities, which I don't believe is inherently bad by the way. The problem is that I have a very strong-willed 6 year old who is reluctant to do ANYTHING she doesn't feed is important or fun to her. Which is understandable. But on the other hand it is not feasible for me to only follow her spontaneous learning and always be able to come up with ideas for activities and such on a whim. I also have a one year old and four year old. I stronly feel like I NEED to have at least a general idea of what we want to do during the week, with some planned/structured activities. This takes planning of course, and then when all of my ideas (or even ideas we've come up with together) are rejected I get very frustrated. I feel like I have two personalities - one that wants to be free and spontaneous in life and the other who really LOVES organization and planning and having purpose and direction in life. I don't know how to reconcile the two?

Secondly, with arts and crafts, which my children love, as most children do I am sure, I find it difficult to get started on a project or even to get out supplies because I just keep thinking about the mess that's going to be left and the challenge I will have in finding time to clean it up. My youngest is extremely needy and I have to do lots of things with him screaming and pulling on me, and I just try to make sure I don't make more work for myself than I have to. I know that sounds awful and my kids are missing out, but...... We could do art when Daddy gets home I suppose, but that is the time the older ones get to play games and cards and do math manipulatives without the one year old grabbing and destroying everything. I sometimes feels very guilty about having children so close together for these reasons.

My last major issue I can't find a solution to is dinner time. Our "rule" at dinner is that we eat together as a family. I've explained to the kids why that's important to myself and my husband. And also that if they absolutely do not like what I cooked, they can choose to eat some fresh fruits, veggies, yogurt, or PB&J sandwich, but no other options. Lately the older two kids, for whatever reason, have been refusing most dinners, even stuff they've eaten and loved before. The problems with this for us is that first of all, it is a miracle that I even get dinner made each night. It takes alot of effort with my clingly toddler, and I'm tired of feeling like I'm only cooking for my husband and me. What's the point, really? Also, the kids eat an apple for dinner and then 30 minutes later eat pretzels or something as a "snack". So they end up eating an apple and pretzels for dinner? I'm big on good nutrition and I am having huge issues with this.

Anyway, I know my own views about things may be making these situations into "issues" when they don't need to be. However, with several small children, I just don't see how our household can function without some "rules" and structure.

Thanks for reading. ANY thoughts are greatly appreciated. I'm tired of struggling for answers.

Robin Bentley

On Dec 5, 2011, at 7:24 AM, jenlea79 wrote:

> Hi! I've been a member of this group for a while, but I don't think
> I've posted before. I am trying to gain a different perspective/
> better insight into a few issues I'm having at home. Hope that's
> okay for my first post!

If you haven't read these pages at Sandra's site, you might want to
check them out.

http://sandradodd.com/rules

http://sandradodd.com/food

Many folks have written about their struggles with rules vs.
principles and food, so the stories there might help you to understand
what unschooling can look like.

Robin B.

P.S. Does your one-year old enjoy being held? What about a carrier
(maybe backpack style) to keep him close while you get craft things
set out for the others?

Sandra Dodd

-=- This takes planning of course, and then when all of my ideas (or even ideas we've come up with together) are rejected I get very frustrated.-=-

I know the feeling. :-)
You've been on the list for over two years, but the questions you're asking are very beginner questions.
I'm mentioning it because people can think they've done what it takes (joined an unschooling list, decided they're unschooling), but what it REALLY takes is to understand better WHY it is what it is and what choices will help it work.

Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

But in that order. :-)

-=- I feel like I have two personalities - one that wants to be free and spontaneous in life and the other who really LOVES organization and planning and having purpose and direction in life. I don't know how to reconcile the two?
-=-

You can organize and plan your own day without organizing and planning others' so much.
You can have the purpose and direction of creating an environment in which learning happens all the time.

-=-Secondly, with arts and crafts, which my children love, as most children do I am sure, I find it difficult to get started on a project or even to get out supplies because I just keep thinking about the mess that's going to be left and the challenge I will have in finding time to clean it up.-=-

Perhaps you're doing school-style "arts and crafts" where everyone is making the same turkey out of a toilet paper roll, or gluing macaroni on a plate. If so, forget the projects. Go for the materials. Let them fingerpaint a little, or use crayons on interesting new and different surfaces. Process, not product. Schools want PRODUCT so they can send the "art" (not art--assembly line "crafts") home to prove their children are doing something at school. Unschooling doesn't need that. A photo of them happily using supplies, placed on a blog with what you learned from it that day would help them, you, and anyone else who comes across the blog.

-=-I just try to make sure I don't make more work for myself than I have to.-=-

Two things here: You don't "have to" do any of this. You could put your kids in school, and the baby in daycare.
If you think of unschooling as something you want to do in as quick and easy a way as possible, without making more work for yourself, it probably won't work.

But I don't think you really, deeply believe what you wrote, because it's a long idiomatic phrase people use without thinking. "I don't make more work for myself than I have to." Mothers have said to other mothers for a long, long time "Don't make more work for yourself than you have to."

When you hear yourself speaking (or see yourself writing, or feel yourself thinking) phrases that are NOT your words, but the words of a voice in your head, stop and try to rephrase that. What are you REALLY thinking and feeling?

http://sandradodd.com/haveto

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenlea79

Thanks! Yes I've read the stuff in those links, and just reread them again :) I'm not really finding an answer to my specific questions. It's really only dinner time I have issue with - taking the time/effort to cook and then my kids refusing to eat (it's usually "I don't like that!" as opposed to not being hungry). In theory, applying radical unschooling principles to food/eating/dinner sounds great, but in practice it just doesn't seem to work well for us. As far as "rules" go, I keep using them in quotes because they aren't rules in the sense that anybody is punished by not obeying them, it's just a set of ideals that we strongly encourage? Yes the one year old enjoys being held, and that is that problem! He always wants to be held or nursed. WE've never done great with carriers or the like. I am very small-framed and all of the styles I've tried hurt my neck/back. The youngest doesn't like riding in them anyway, unless we are moving constantly, like hiking or something.

--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2011, at 7:24 AM, jenlea79 wrote:
>
> > Hi! I've been a member of this group for a while, but I don't think
> > I've posted before. I am trying to gain a different perspective/
> > better insight into a few issues I'm having at home. Hope that's
> > okay for my first post!
>
> If you haven't read these pages at Sandra's site, you might want to
> check them out.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/rules
>
> http://sandradodd.com/food
>
> Many folks have written about their struggles with rules vs.
> principles and food, so the stories there might help you to understand
> what unschooling can look like.
>
> Robin B.
>
> P.S. Does your one-year old enjoy being held? What about a carrier
> (maybe backpack style) to keep him close while you get craft things
> set out for the others?
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-My last major issue I can't find a solution to is dinner time. Our "rule" at dinner is that we eat together as a family. I've explained to the kids why that's important to myself and my husband. -=-

Could you explain it to us, please?
What did you tell them?

(If you don't want to explain it that's fine, but if you were to try to do that--explain it very clearly in a way other adults would understand--you might start to see "solutions."

Here is a candid photo of a child eating an apple. It illustrates an important and oft-repeated result of the kind of view of food and eating that has been discussed on this list for ten years, and by people who are now on this list for fifteen years (other forums before this):

http://sandradodd.com/eating/apple.html

Think about the purpose of food, of eating, and think about it while reading about "rules" and "have to":

http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/haveto

The major issues are in your thinking, or in your unthinking acceptance of messages around you.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenlea79

Thanks for your response. And if I sound defensive, I'm not trying to, I just need to figure this out :)

About reading.......I am an avid reader of anything regarding natural learning or peaceful parenting. I don't really know what else I could possibly read that would help me. Maybe I should stop reading and asking questions and just try harder to figure stuff out for myself? Again, I believe strongly in the ideas presented, just having difficulty applying them at home.

About the arts and crafts, I just need to move my focus from the mess to what my children will gain from regular access to art supplies. It will be difficult for me. It's hard for someone who is naturally a very organized and minimalist type person. This, I see and probably already knew before I posted, is 100% my issue.

-----"But I don't think you really, deeply believe what you wrote, because it's a long idiomatic phrase people use without thinking. "I don't make more work for myself than I have to." Mothers have said to other mothers for a long, long time "Don't make more work for yourself than you have to"----

Funny. I can't honestly remember a specific time I've heard someone say that, but now that you mention it, it is pretty cliche. But it is also how I truly feel. I guess the raising multiple children/homeschooling/household management thing doesn't come as naturally to me as I'd hoped it would and I'm having a difficult time keeping up with all of my responsibilities. But I feel so strongly about my children learning at home, I would never consider for a second anything else :) I expect lots of challenges, and I know things won't be easy. However, I get exhausted struggling with the same challenges every day and not finding anything that works for us to solve the issue. I am a problem solver :)

I enjoyed reading your thoughts on these things. Thanks!

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- This takes planning of course, and then when all of my ideas (or even ideas we've come up with together) are rejected I get very frustrated.-=-
>
> I know the feeling. :-)
> You've been on the list for over two years, but the questions you're asking are very beginner questions.
> I'm mentioning it because people can think they've done what it takes (joined an unschooling list, decided they're unschooling), but what it REALLY takes is to understand better WHY it is what it is and what choices will help it work.
>
> Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
>
> But in that order. :-)
>
> -=- I feel like I have two personalities - one that wants to be free and spontaneous in life and the other who really LOVES organization and planning and having purpose and direction in life. I don't know how to reconcile the two?
> -=-
>
> You can organize and plan your own day without organizing and planning others' so much.
> You can have the purpose and direction of creating an environment in which learning happens all the time.
>
> -=-Secondly, with arts and crafts, which my children love, as most children do I am sure, I find it difficult to get started on a project or even to get out supplies because I just keep thinking about the mess that's going to be left and the challenge I will have in finding time to clean it up.-=-
>
> Perhaps you're doing school-style "arts and crafts" where everyone is making the same turkey out of a toilet paper roll, or gluing macaroni on a plate. If so, forget the projects. Go for the materials. Let them fingerpaint a little, or use crayons on interesting new and different surfaces. Process, not product. Schools want PRODUCT so they can send the "art" (not art--assembly line "crafts") home to prove their children are doing something at school. Unschooling doesn't need that. A photo of them happily using supplies, placed on a blog with what you learned from it that day would help them, you, and anyone else who comes across the blog.
>
> -=-I just try to make sure I don't make more work for myself than I have to.-=-
>
> Two things here: You don't "have to" do any of this. You could put your kids in school, and the baby in daycare.
> If you think of unschooling as something you want to do in as quick and easy a way as possible, without making more work for yourself, it probably won't work.
>
> But I don't think you really, deeply believe what you wrote, because it's a long idiomatic phrase people use without thinking. "I don't make more work for myself than I have to." Mothers have said to other mothers for a long, long time "Don't make more work for yourself than you have to."
>
> When you hear yourself speaking (or see yourself writing, or feel yourself thinking) phrases that are NOT your words, but the words of a voice in your head, stop and try to rephrase that. What are you REALLY thinking and feeling?
>
> http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Pam Sorooshian

My kids were also 6, 4, and 1, once. Now they are all in their 20's.

My suggestions to you:

Find more "big principles" to hold onto, rather than specific rules and
structures. Finding ways to support your big principles will satisfy your
own need for structure and planning.

For example, you have a rule about family eating dinner together. That is
because you are trying to support a bigger principle such as "foster family
closeness." That's probably why you want to try to make everyone in the
family sit down to eat dinner together, right? If you step back and think
about your real overriding principle of fostering family closeness, you'll
realize that dinner together is not only not the only way to adhere to your
overriding principle and that forcing dinner together can even be
counterproductive to the big principle. If something isn't supporting the
big principle, drop it and find some other way to support that big
principle.

That's just one example of how thinking in terms of big principles, instead
of specific rules, can help. Try applying that to food.

Kids don't need "crafts," by the way, if by that you mean a specific craft
project that involves following instructions, etc. My oldest daughter IS an
artist and even makes some actual money selling her creations at boutiques
these days. She has always loved to have her hands busily creating art of
all kinds. When she was 6 and I had a 4 year old and a 1 year old - we had
art supplies outdoors really a lot. We had an easel and big sheets of paper
and lots of tempera paint to play with outside. We made playdough
frequently - added all kinds of stuff to it such as oatmeal or pineapple
flavoring. That was played with outdoors on the patio, too. They played
with fingerpaints in the bathtub (and sometimes fingerpainted with instant
pudding in the tub). I bought really super good quality colored pencils
and crayons and there was always a lot of paper of all kinds around.
Scissors and tape were available. The pencils, scissors, tape, and paper
were kept up all in a clear plastic box up just out of reach of the 1 yo.
Clean up meant dumping everything back into the big plastic box and putting
it back up on a shelf.

Again, they don't need craft projects, but art supplies, yes. We had a card
table set up in a bedroom and they would take the art supplies box and go
in there and shut the door and I'd keep the 1 year old happy somewhere
else.

Make things interesting by adding things to the art supplies box over time.
Add a single hole puncher. Add some yarn. Add some old birthday cards or
holiday cards. Popsicle sticks. Whatever you run into, add it. Just put
them in the box - you don't have to make up a project to do with them.

Again - what is the big principle here? Offer stimulating and interesting
learning activities, maybe?

I think you need to think more in terms of setting the stage for letting
them learn and less about yourself being in charge.

I want to go back to the family closeness thing and dinner. My family is
really very very close. My oldest daughter is 27 and married and she and
her husband moved into a house that is a 1-minute walk from our front door.
They love living that close to us. My daughters are each others' best
friends. We still do things as a family all the time - we all talk to each
other every day. All that - and we had very few "family dinners" when the
kids were growing up - those we had happened spontaneously or on special
occasions.

What counts for family closeness is shared experience. That's what that
whole family dinner is supposed to create. But difficult, uncomfortable,
forced family dinners don't create closeness - they create a desire to get
away/escape.

It is much much better to have lots of small moments of joy and kindness!
It is all the small moments that build up over lifetimes to become real
family closeness. Family dinner is intended to make sure there is time for
loving family members to connect - that's it. Nothing else magical about
it. But it is forced and artificial and unnatural to children to sit down
for a meal like that. Children would almost always rather "graze" on food
throughout the day and it is more healthy for them to do that. If you are
worried about nutrition, forcing kids to sit at a dinner table and eat
certain foods (or refuse to eat them and have all that negativity) is a
sure-fire way to contribute to them having problems with food later on.
Better to put your effort into having nutritious snacks that they can eat
when hungry. Make a list of very simple, good, healthy foods that you can
throw together. Make a list of dinners for you and your husband, too, that
are super quick. Use only a few ingredients, not complicated recipes. For
these years, while you have little children, you and your husband can eat
very simply. Bread and soup is a good option, for example, that can be
delicious and nutritious and super quick.

Big principle - supply kids with foods that will make them happy and
healthy. Not a rule - they must eat the dinner I cook and if they don't
like that choose from a few limited options.

It is hard to get a clear head when you have almost no down time, but you
are looking at individual trees and missing the beauty of the forrest.

Think a lot more about the process and not so much about product. The
process is good if people are happy. That's the test that matters, not how
good the product is.

-pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenlea79

Sure. Again, it's not really a "rule" as in anyone gets punished or lectured. We like it to be a time for quiet nourishment and reflection on our day together as a family. I am a practicing Buddhist and I try to encourage mindful eating. It's difficult when everyone is running around crazy. So there are a few reasons we prefer everyone sit and eat dinner together in the evening.

But that aspect of my posting wasn't the "problem". It's me cooking and nobody eating even though they are hungry.

I apologize for my beginner questions. Again, I really believe in the idea of a democratic household and unschooling as it relates to learning, just not totally convinced (by me) that the principles of radical unschooling can be utilized alongside the values I already have and want to pass to my children. Maybe I'll just lurk around for another two years because I don't think I "get it" quite yet. :) Thanks for taking the time to respond to my posts!

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-My last major issue I can't find a solution to is dinner time. Our "rule" at dinner is that we eat together as a family. I've explained to the kids why that's important to myself and my husband. -=-
>
> Could you explain it to us, please?
> What did you tell them?
>
> (If you don't want to explain it that's fine, but if you were to try to do that--explain it very clearly in a way other adults would understand--you might start to see "solutions."
>
> Here is a candid photo of a child eating an apple. It illustrates an important and oft-repeated result of the kind of view of food and eating that has been discussed on this list for ten years, and by people who are now on this list for fifteen years (other forums before this):
>
> http://sandradodd.com/eating/apple.html
>
> Think about the purpose of food, of eating, and think about it while reading about "rules" and "have to":
>
> http://sandradodd.com/rules
> http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
> The major issues are in your thinking, or in your unthinking acceptance of messages around you.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Pam Sorooshian

>>>
On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:17 AM, jenlea79 <jenlea79@...> wrote:

> "Don't make more work for yourself than you have to"----
>
> Funny. I can't honestly remember a specific time I've heard someone say
> that, but now that you mention it, it is pretty cliche. But it is also how
> I truly feel.
>
<<<

I don't think you really believe it because those who don't want to make
more work for themselves than they have to don't have three children. You
didn't have to have the children and you knew they'd make more work for
you.

Maybe you're feeling that way now, though, because you are trying to do
more than is reasonable with three young kids home with you all the time. I
think you're trying to do things that you should let go of for a while.
Family dinner would be first on my list. Housecleaning probably needs to be
let go of to some degree (my guess, based on what you've said). Focus your
efforts on making more learning opportunities available for your children
by "setting the stage" for them. You provide the props and space, let them
do the exploring and creating and learning. Use big clear plastic boxes so
that clean up is tossing things back into boxes and stacking the boxes in
another room.

ALL of your time is probably going to be spent in the process of getting
stuff out, tossing things back into a box and putting it away, feeding the
baby, putting out a snack for the other kids, getting a drink of water,
changing a diaper, helping resolve disputes, and on and on. That is a day
in the life of mom of 3 young kids. At the end of the day, you often can't
think of a thing you've "accomplished." But if you've had a lot of happy
moments, if kids have smiled and hugged and if you've said "I love you,"
then that was a good day.

Get out of the house when you can - new environments jazz things up.
Outdoor play is great - but in the winter I know that can be hard. I know
you're into nutritious eating, and I am too, but I still used to go take my
kids to macdonald's playplace -- I'd have a cup of coffee and they'd play.
You don't have to eat there. It was a small enough and contained space that
the littlest child could be occupied safely most of the time and I could
sit a bit. I'd meet a friend there. Lovely! We had a membership to our
little local children's museum - that was always good for a couple of hours
of fun and relaxation.

Again - I think you can put your urge to organize and control to good use
IF you focus on big principles and on being more of a set designer, rather
than a director.

-pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:39 AM, jenlea79 <jenlea79@...> wrote:

> We like it to be a time for quiet nourishment and reflection on our day
> together as a family.


Who is "we?" I doubt your 6, 4 and 1 year olds "like it to be a time for
quiet nourishment and reflection on our day together as a family."

You do realize the kids are not you, right? What "you" like will most
definitely not always be what "they" like. Are you always going to try to
impose your likes on them? Not a good recipe for happy family living.

-pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-About reading.......I am an avid reader of anything regarding natural learning or peaceful parenting. I don't really know what else I could possibly read that would help me.-=-

I was thinking that if you had been actively reading this list you'd be further along.
But being an avid reader isn't about doing. Some people think they can read themselves into knowing, but the knowing involved with parenting is more like riding a bike or a unicycle. You need to try it, and then maybe watch others, or read more, or ask questions.

-=- Maybe I should stop reading and asking questions and just try harder to figure stuff out for myself? -=-

That's going from one extreme to the other.
Reading this might help:
http://sandradodd.com/balance

-=-Again, I believe strongly in the ideas presented, just having difficulty applying them at home.-=-

If you understand a principle and believe strongly in it, you will have difficulty doing anything else besides making decisions with that belief in mind.

If you believe strongly that spanking is bad but you keep spanking, what would "believe strongly" mean?
If I believe strongly that being honest is better than making shit up, I can't make shit up and try to pass it off as truth.
I believe strongly that allowing my children to figure things out (with discussion, but without attempts at force or a shaming bunch of pressure) is the way to be. And my husband and I have been doing that for over 20 years now with three kids.

Yeah, sometimes I get frustrated and tell someone that what they're doing is a problem, but in the same way I would tell an adult friend or my husband or a teen or kid who wasn't mine. It's not perfect, but when I fail I see it as a failure not as something right, good, inevitable or their fault.

So strong belief without action isn't really strong belief.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I feel so strongly about my children learning at home, I would never consider for a second anything else :) I expect lots of challenges, and I know things won't be easy. However, I get exhausted struggling with the same challenges every day and not finding anything that works for us to solve the issue. I am a problem solver :)-=-

You wrote: "I know things won't be easy."

Why?
Do you hope things won't be easy?

If you figure out how to do things the easy way, they might be VERY easy.

-=- I'm having a difficult time keeping up with all of my responsibilities. -=-

If you prioritize your children's happiness in your list of responsibilities, your life will become a little easier, and theirs MUCH better.

If they will only get the leftover time after "all of your responsibilities," unschooling will suffer. Your family is already suffering. You told us so. You are exhausted struggling with the same challenges every day. :-)

I'm glad you asked us! I hope some of the ideas people bring out here will help you have fewer challenges, and an easier life.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-We like it to be a time for quiet nourishment and reflection on our day together as a family. I am a practicing Buddhist and I try to encourage mindful eating. It's difficult when everyone is running around crazy. So there are a few reasons we prefer everyone sit and eat dinner together in the evening.-=-

By "we" you mean you and your husband.
When there are five people, and two or three of them are NOT into the plan, using "we" is dishonest, or controlling.

http://sandradodd.com/being
http://sandradodd.com/partners

-=-But that aspect of my posting wasn't the "problem". It's me cooking and nobody eating even though they are hungry. -=-

Whoa! Stop and think, please. Mindful reading. The mindful eating really isn't working out for you, is it?

-=-But that aspect of my posting wasn't the "problem". -=-

More often than not, when someone comes and tells us what the problem is, they're looking at a little symptom or causation as the problem, rather than at the big problem.

What is the purpose of hunger? If you KNOW your child is hungry and you put something out that he doesn't want, and then limit his options, that's not mindful, nor quiet, nor reflective of your togetherness as a family.

What is the purpose of food?
What is the purpose of eating?

If you're practicing Buddhism as you might in a monastery, or in a fantasy movie, who's going to take care of your kids and be with them right where they are right now?

You can practice mindfulness through your parenting.
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting

-=- Again, I really believe in the idea of a democratic household and unschooling as it relates to learning, just not totally convinced (by me) that the principles of radical unschooling can be utilized alongside the values I already have and want to pass to my children-=-

Democratically, I think the vote is for you to stop those family dinners. I don't think you want "a democratic household." You're outvoted pretty easily. :-)

But by living in loving, joyful ways, you can create an environment where nobody is hungry, and nobody would want to vote your plans down. The values you want to pass to your children won't look like the buddhism in a painting, but if you continue as you've described that you're doing, you won't have much buddhism nor much unschooling.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- The youngest doesn't like riding in them anyway, unless we are moving constantly, like hiking or something.-=-

Bouncing or swaying worked for us. MANY times I "danced" the baby in the backpack while helping the older kids do things.

I had a two year old each time I had a baby. It's hard!! I would be surprised if you had time to read much on this list or my site or Joyce's, but if you will, you'll find a ton of practical ideas.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen

>>>I just try to make sure I don't make more work for myself than I have
to.<<<

I'm recently finished reading a book called Reality is Broken. I picked it up to help me appreciate our family's interest in video games. One of the things I learned from reading that book is that humans are *always* looking for fulfilling work for themselves. The key is to make your work fulfilling.

I have done this at home in a variety of different ways. I only use dishes that I have either made or really love. That way, even cleaning them is a joy. I have things loosely organized in baskets that I like to look at. It takes me no time to throw things in their baskets if the house is getting a bit over-filled with our projects. I gave in to our dining table being a works-in-progress table. I put flowers in the middle of it all to celebrate the work! We eat in various other places around the house. For us, eating together has become more about connecting and talking about what we're working on, and less about having a traditional meal time. We often play board games while we eat.

But, most importantly, I have learned to celebrate the "mess." That meant I had to look at it very differently. In less than 15 years Ethan will likely be out on his own. The house (sadly, to me) will be all mine to make as neat or as organized as I want it to be, if that's what I want. Right now, however, instead of seeing a mess, I choose to see creativity, learning and adventure. I see fun and progress and connection. I celebrate that we *can* live like this. I find joy in my son's free explorations.

Last Winter, we did not have much snow yet. Ethan loves snow. We all do, really. Ethan found the three hole punch, which hadn't been cleaned out in I don't know how long. He opened it up...and found a treasure! He looked over at me, smiled and then threw that collection of holes up into the air. He danced and jumped around under the falling paper, singing about snow. The kitchen was covered with little white circles. Without hesitation, he crouched down and swept some up into his hands. He threw them around again and again. I left them for a while because they gave him so much joy. By evening I decided to sweep them up. When he saw me, he came and helped a bit, but even if he hadn't I would not have minded. It was worth the ten minutes of sweeping to see the joy in his exploration.

jenlea79

I don't quite follow this. I was simply answering your question about the reasons for the dinner "rules", and thought I would mention that reason. I did not randomly throw that out there to make myself seem one way or the other. Yes, mindfulness and living in the moment is at the core of Buddhist teachings. However, so is simplicity. Perfection is not the goal, avoiding complete chaos and making sure everyone's needs, including the grown-ups in the house, are met. I just feel that some routine and guidelines can help in that regard. But this is apparently a very basic and broad argument against radical unschooling, that I am sure you have addressed a zillion times. I am not trying to live up to the label of unschooling or radical unschooling. Another core teaching of Buddhism, is that attachment leads to suffering. I'm not going to attach myself to the idea that I absolutely can't ask my children to abide by certain guidelines to make this household run more smoothly.

You seem to be impying that I am wanting to claim to be an unschooler and a buddhist just for the heck of it, without really believing in the principles of either. This is completely untrue. I despise labels. I rarely mention either to anybody, as I don't see a need to. I'm simply trying out different philosophies of life because I see those around me suffering greatly and want something different for my family.

I'm going to stop now, because there's no use keeping on.

I made a mistake posting in this group. I am truly sorry.

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-We like it to be a time for quiet nourishment and reflection on our day together as a family. I am a practicing Buddhist and I try to encourage mindful eating. It's difficult when everyone is running around crazy. So there are a few reasons we prefer everyone sit and eat dinner together in the evening.-=-
>
> By "we" you mean you and your husband.
> When there are five people, and two or three of them are NOT into the plan, using "we" is dishonest, or controlling.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/being
> http://sandradodd.com/partners
>
> -=-But that aspect of my posting wasn't the "problem". It's me cooking and nobody eating even though they are hungry. -=-
>
> Whoa! Stop and think, please. Mindful reading. The mindful eating really isn't working out for you, is it?
>
> -=-But that aspect of my posting wasn't the "problem". -=-
>
> More often than not, when someone comes and tells us what the problem is, they're looking at a little symptom or causation as the problem, rather than at the big problem.
>
> What is the purpose of hunger? If you KNOW your child is hungry and you put something out that he doesn't want, and then limit his options, that's not mindful, nor quiet, nor reflective of your togetherness as a family.
>
> What is the purpose of food?
> What is the purpose of eating?
>
> If you're practicing Buddhism as you might in a monastery, or in a fantasy movie, who's going to take care of your kids and be with them right where they are right now?
>
> You can practice mindfulness through your parenting.
> http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
>
> -=- Again, I really believe in the idea of a democratic household and unschooling as it relates to learning, just not totally convinced (by me) that the principles of radical unschooling can be utilized alongside the values I already have and want to pass to my children-=-
>
> Democratically, I think the vote is for you to stop those family dinners. I don't think you want "a democratic household." You're outvoted pretty easily. :-)
>
> But by living in loving, joyful ways, you can create an environment where nobody is hungry, and nobody would want to vote your plans down. The values you want to pass to your children won't look like the buddhism in a painting, but if you continue as you've described that you're doing, you won't have much buddhism nor much unschooling.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

mitrisue

--- In [email protected], "jenlea79" <jenlea79@...> wrote:
---The problems with this for us is that first of all, it is a miracle that I even get dinner made each night. It takes alot of effort with my clingly toddler, and I'm tired of feeling like I'm only cooking for my husband and me. What's the point, really?---

It's helped us to mainly drop the ides of dinner as a concept. When a fancier , more elaborate meal happens, it's usually my husband who makes it. I occasionally do. We keep our focus on having a variety of appealing things available for foraging. We're usually not all together at a table, but it's nice when it happens that way.

I remember having an expectation that I should be able to be with kids and start dinner, but that didn't meet our needs. Joe is much better at cooking and doing it quickly. I'm quite slow when I do it. Also the reality of it is that the kids need me moment to moment. A rigid routine messes that up and doesn't play to our strengths.

When I do cook out of genuine interest and because the opportunity has popped up, the kids will often join in. We may make food together and then not eat it together. The key concepts here are flexibility, meeting our needs, taking advantage of opportunity (rather than enforcing obligation), and recognizing our abilities.

Julie

Sandra Dodd

-=-I made a mistake posting in this group. I am truly sorry.-=-

No, the mistake is that instead of thinking about the ideas people have sent, you keep writing.
New angles and new ideas take time to consider, and to understand, and try, evaluate and process. It can't all be done in one day. It shouldn't be attempted.

http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange


-=-You seem to be impying that I am wanting to claim to be an unschooler and a buddhist just for the heck of it, without really believing in the principles of either. This is completely untrue. I despise labels.-=-

I was suggesting that you weren't being a very good unschooler or a very good Buddhist, because you were flailing and thrashing.

http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2011/11/thrashing-and-flailing_14.html

When the thrashing and flailing stop, then there is a quiet. Then you can think.

-= This is completely untrue. I despise labels.-=-

It is untrue, but it was your perception and construct that was untrue.

Despising anything is a nasty attachment to it.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity

Whether an individual poster stays on this list or not never changes the fact that a great number of list members benefit from each discussion, so I hope you will give this some time so you can think about what was written for a few weeks or months before you declare whether it was wrong, true, a mistake, or that you despise it.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenny.wren76

I think sometimes we are so strongly attached to ideals that we don't even realize it, and that can hinder us greatly. Being attached to a set of guidelines does not seem like something that will necessarily help things go smoothly for a family. I suppose it could, depending on what the guidelines are, but using principles instead seems more pleasant for all involved, instead of being hung up on wanting things to be a certain way. Being attached to the idea of a quiet dinner with 3 young children in a home seems futile.
The most helpful unschooling advice I glean from lists/blogs/etc. is to just let go of the 'shoulds' in my head, to detach myself from my own story enough that I can see what's happening with the other characters and interact with them in a way that is pleasant and meaningful for all of us.

We can use all the 'guidelines' we want, for sure. That doesn't mean that it's the best choice. It can be so frustrating being attached to an outcome (I cooked food, I expect it to be eaten by everyone), especially when we are disrespecting other people in order to fulfill our own 'need'/desire for achieving that outcome. In trying to talk past the louder voices (such as children refusing to eat the food I want them to eat) our own voice won't be heard either, all there will be is a cacophony that is hurting everyone. I think that we adults need to learn to stop insisting that children hear us, and actually listen to what our children are trying to tell us.

Jenn

*****************************************************************
> Another core teaching of Buddhism, is that attachment leads to suffering. I'm not going to attach myself to the idea that I absolutely can't ask my children to abide by certain guidelines to make this household run more smoothly.
>
I'm simply trying out different philosophies of life because I see those around me suffering greatly and want something different for my family.
>
> I'm going to stop now, because there's no use keeping on.
>
> I made a mistake posting in this group. I am truly sorry.
********************************************************************

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

<<<<"I'm not going to attach myself to the idea that I absolutely can't ask my children to abide by certain guidelines to make this household run more smoothly.

You seem to be impying that I am wanting to claim to be an unschooler and a buddhist just for the heck of it, without really believing in the principles of either. This is completely untrue. I despise labels. I rarely mention either to anybody, as I don't see a need to. I'm simply trying out different philosophies of life because I see those around me suffering greatly and want something different for my family. ">>>>>>


You seem to be saying something likes this:

-I am a Vegan  so I do not buy or bring any meat into my home but I also think that our bodies need some meat so I think I should eat it once a week.  I despise labels and I believe in being Vegan and not eating animal byproducts.   --

It is all very contradictory and not clear at all. It will be more peaceful and your home will run more smoothly if there is clarity. Being mindful towards your children was suggested here. Mindfulness is something to strive if you are a Buddhist or  wants to live by their principles ,same as unschoolilng.
  That is what people here are trying to  show you by pointing out and questioning your conflicting and contradictory thoughts and ideas. I see a lot of people that are attracted to ideas and philosophies like unschooling and Buddhism but they do not want to change what they are doing or the way they think.  


In my home kids eat when they are hungry. I sometimes make 4 different foods in one meal. My husband , because he cannot smell or taste, has his preferred foods and so does my kids. I try making stuff I used to love to eat as a child and sometimes they like it sometimes I will eat that for a few days. It is all good. I do it joyfully, I really do.





 
Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***I just feel that some routine and guidelines can help in that regard. But this is apparently a very basic and broad argument against radical unschooling, that I am sure you have addressed a zillion times. I am not trying to live up to the label of unschooling or radical unschooling. Another core teaching of Buddhism, is that attachment leads to suffering. I'm not going to attach myself to the idea that I absolutely can't ask my children to abide by certain guidelines to make this household run more smoothly.***


You've attached yourself to the idea that you need routine and guidelines.  You've said so repeatedly, in a number of ways.  You've attached yourself to the idea that your kids should like the food you make.  You've attached yourself to the idea that your youngest doesn't like backpacks and that your kids need to eat at a family dinner.  You've attached yourself to quite a lot and it IS causing you and your kids to suffer.  

It seems to me, from what I've read so far, that you are your greatest obstacle.  That is often the case!  All the things you mention that cause you stress and discomfort and even suffering, can all be changed and/or avoided if YOU do things differently, if YOU let go of those preconceived ideas of how you think things should be.  It's okay to know what you want and what your comforts are, but actively living that way requires creative problem solving when you live with others, especially kids.  You can't make your whole family create the environment most comfortable for you, it's your job to make the most comfortable environment for your family, letting go of some of your own comforts for the peace of the group.  The more you do that, the more likely it will be that your kids grow up and help you be comfortable, since that is what you've modeled for them.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"jenlea79" <jenlea79@...> wrote:
>> Secondly, with arts and crafts, which my children love, as most children do I am sure, I find it difficult to get started on a project or even to get out supplies because I just keep thinking about the mess that's going to be left and the challenge I will have in finding time to clean it up.
***************

That's a good place to apply your desire for organization and planning - organize your art supplies so they're easy to get out and put away. Plan times to have messy fun - which means planning time to clean up, too. Time for You, not time to try to get the kids to clean up. Plan something fun for them to do Next so you can get things put away neatly - like a bath or a movie, or dad taking them out for ice-cream or something.


> My last major issue I can't find a solution to is dinner time. Our "rule" at dinner is that we eat together as a family.
***************

Instead of making dinner something you enforce, make it something delightful the kids are invited to join - and with little kids, the best way to do that is to separate the idea of the social time together at the table away from the idea of "having to eat". That takes a lot of the "issues" out of "dinner time" right away. You can have plenty of food for the kids during the day, and make a nice dinner that you and your husband will enjoy without having to worry about accomodating kid-tastes. They can have another snack, or try what you're having, or sit and chat, or do an art project, or play with small toys at the table - or! not join you at all. The last sounds like the oposite of what you want, but over time I've found that my kids Like to come and eat with me and my partner when we sit down together. They'll stop what they're doing and join us - not Every time, but when they do, its because they Want to be where we are, doing what we're doing.

>Also, the kids eat an apple for dinner and then 30 minutes later eat pretzels or something as a "snack". So they end up eating an apple and pretzels for dinner? I'm big on good nutrition and I am having huge issues with this.
****************

Good nutrition doesn't require three meals a day, or a big whopping dinner. Kids have tiny bellies and need to eat small amounts frequently, so have lots of little servings of foods that are easy to eat on hand. Do That instead of trying to get them to eat dinner, and you'll free up a bunch of energy right away. And you can make some nice grown-up thing for yourself or have your husband bring home a nice take-out meal now and again.

---Meredith

Meredith

"jenlea79" <jenlea79@...> wrote:
>We like it to be a time for quiet nourishment and reflection on our day together as a family.
****************

That's an utterly unrealistic expectation to have of young children. Often, with little kids, eating is something they do in passing - they'll pause and eat a few grapes here, a couple crackers there, and go back to what they're doing. Or they'll eat while transitioning from one thing to another. That's not a terrible thing! Little kids don't have all the same attachments adults do (yet) so they don't really need to pause and reflect the way adults do. They live much more in the moment than you do - that's something to admire and strive to learn from, if you like Buddhist ideas. Don't try to train them out of that - they'll Grow out of living in the moment as they get older, naturally.

>I try to encourage mindful eating.

Let them eat, instead. If you let them eat when they're hungry and stop when they're no longer interested, mindfulness will be easier for them where food is concerned because they won't have to fight off years of baggage around meals.

The child who just wants and apple Right Now is being mindful of her real needs and desires. If she eats four bites and is done, she's still being mindful of her real needs and desires! What she doesn't have is a lot of adult baggage about food getting in the way of her mindfulness.

Here's a page about serving up snacks I forgot to include in my other post:
http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter

>>I really believe in the idea of a democratic household

That's not necessarily the same as unschooling - if you're thinking they're the same, that may be part of your problem. Start with ideas about learning, about what helps learning to flow:

http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles

---Meredith

Pam Sorooshian

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 10:59 AM, jenlea79 <jenlea79@...> wrote:

> I'm simply trying out different philosophies of life because I see those
> around me suffering greatly and want something different for my family.
>
> I'm going to stop now, because there's no use keeping on.
>
> I made a mistake posting in this group. I am truly sorry.
>

>>>>>

I am truly sorry your feelings were hurt - hurt feelings don't help someone
think more clearly or be more able to hear new/different ideas. I know it
was not at all my intention to insult you and I don't think anybody else
here had that intention, either. My intention was to give you questions to
ask yourself to support your own efforts to think things through more
clearly. You said several times that certain problems were your "issues"
and I figured you were posting on the list to try to sort out what you,
yourself, could change about yourself since things don't seem to be going
easily or smoothly for you.

You do really sound overwhelmed and I've been there and remember it well.
I'm sorry you took offense because I still think the rest of what has been
offered could be really helpful to you and I hope you'll reread it.

Remember that people here are honestly just trying to be nice. I am
offering you something that was offered to me 15+ years ago. Pay it
forward! It can be very hard to be as detached as is needed to do the kind
of thinking and self-examination that we do on this list, though. I
thought, from your posts, that you were ready and able to handle the
comments I made and that they would be helpful, but your response indicates
that I was wrong and that they hurt you instead of giving you food for
thought. I hope it helped someone else reading the list and I hope that you
might be willing to think about the ideas anyway.

Maybe I can explain just a little more about what the "we" statements are
significant and important to analyze.

When we say what "we" think or want, including our husband and children in
the "we," there is sometimes unrealistic wishful thinking involved. Often,
we wish they'd want it like we do. Or, we assume they want it. If we clear
that up, we can look directly at what they really want and work together to
satisfy everyone. If we cling to the idea that everybody wants what we
want, things can get worse as others get more and more frustrated.

Silly example: I used to say, "None of us likes pickle relish." I,
personally, can't stand the stuff and my husband doesn't like it and my
oldest daughter doesn't either. My other two daughters apparently never
really got the chance because I'd just say, "Ick, no, we don't like that
stuff." One day my youngest daughter called me on it, saying, "Mommy, you
say "we don't like it" but I really have no IDEA if I like it or not
because YOU never gave me a chance to find out."

It is so easy to do that kind of thing - to speak for others, to make
assumptions, especially if we are the ones who are central core of our
family life....we are, for example, the keepers of the information about
who likes what!

But, wouldn't it be more kind, respectful, thoughtful, and conducive to
learning, if I had actually let my daughters try out some pickle relish to
find out if they did, indeed, like it or detest it as much as I do?

Unschooling doesn't mean that kids make every possible choice, but surely
they could have chosen pickle relish or not on those rare occasions that
someone offered it to them without me butting in and saying, "Oh, no, we
don't like pickle relish."

Like I said - kind of a silly example and in the context of our entire
lives, more humorous than awful.

But it is an example of me using the word "we" inappropriately and running
roughshod over my kids. Nobody feels good when someone else does that to
them. Being called on gave me more awareness of doing that and more ability
to catch it and change my thinking. And it made our lives better when I was
more careful to ask, "What do you think?" or "What do you like?"

It can be wonderful when we really pay attention to each individual's
interests and try to create a family life that supports each particular
child. It might be that your children love eating dinner as a family and
that it is peaceful and rejuvenating and spiritually uplifting. If so,
that's awesome! But if it isn't so, then it very possibly might be that
your children do not share your interest in having that kind of meal time.
To really support their interests requires that you recognize them as
separate beings with separate tastes and preferences that are not only
different, but likely to, at times, be in conflict with yours. A really
good way to engage in the kind of self-analysis that it takes to do move
toward more respect and understanding, is to pay attention to the language
we use.

And, that is why I asked the questions I did about the use of "we" and
pointed out that the children are too young to even understand, much less
want, that particular kind of family dinner time. Also, it seemed that
through their actions they were telling you that they don't want it so it
seems discounting of their interests to say it is what "we" want.

Examining and changing our speech can change our thinking and our behavior.
And the dynamics in the family can really improve as a result. Even if you
don't like the way I've expressed this, I hope you'll think about the ideas.

-pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Claire Darbaud

2011/12/5 jenlea79 <jenlea79@...>

> **
>
> I'm tired of struggling for answers.
>

That's a good place to start.

I started as a very mainstream mother. I went back to work when my oldest
was 10 days old. I was totally certain my kids would go to daycare, and
then school... I was a career woman... I was going to have the right
balance of love and structure... I sure wasn't going to take any whims or
whining...

And life had other plans for me. It sent 2 tiny teachers my way. Getting
them to fit in my ideas of what should be is a struggle. Always was. I
quickly got tired of struggling. I got tired of fighting my children. And
started to look at the present they are offering. They are teaching me
surrender, and trust and love. 24/7. Struggling is a good sign that I have
more to learn.

Unschooling people, on this list and in real life, are helping me get the
message my kids are sending. Helping me to stop struggling and find peace.
And joy :-)

I like deb Lewis' quote about power struggle very
much: "Power struggles can disappear when the person with the power stops
struggling." It's a good reminder for me. I'm not there yet. But I'm
getting better. Slowly. Very slowly. I wish it could go faster. I for one
was certain I could read my way out of deschooling in a blink (Yeh,
right!).

Another thing that's helping me these days is to remember to look where I
want to go. In life as in driving, you tend to set the motion to go towards
where you're looking. Don't dwell on the obstacles or the motion will take
you there fast (and kids tends to be very "what you expect is what you
get").

Not sure any of this helps... I think I should really be in bed by now.

I hope you don't just give up and unsubscribe from this list. This place is
the best I know to get you out of struggling. It can be feel "ouch"
sometimes. Or even "no way!!!". But give it time. Read the list, try some
of the stuff a little. Go gradually. Pick some of the stuff you find easier
to agree with. And then take some time to feel if it's making a difference
in your life. In a good way. Does it ease the struggle? Your life is the
only compass that matters really... :-)

Claire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chris ester

All of this is wonderful. I would add the suggestion to keep a couple of
cheap plastic table cloths around to put on the surface that needs
protection (we used a coffee table) and when we cleaned up, the table cloth
was gathered at the corners and stuffed into a box of it's own. Most of
the time I didn't even bother cleaning it.

One of the 'big principles' that I am still working on is that a house does
not have to be organized down to the last thumbtack to be organized enough.
Chris

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> My kids were also 6, 4, and 1, once. Now they are all in their 20's.
>
> My suggestions to you:
>
> Find more "big principles" to hold onto, rather than specific rules and
> structures. Finding ways to support your big principles will satisfy your
> own need for structure and planning.
>
> For example, you have a rule about family eating dinner together. That is
> because you are trying to support a bigger principle such as "foster family
> closeness." That's probably why you want to try to make everyone in the
> family sit down to eat dinner together, right? If you step back and think
> about your real overriding principle of fostering family closeness, you'll
> realize that dinner together is not only not the only way to adhere to your
> overriding principle and that forcing dinner together can even be
> counterproductive to the big principle. If something isn't supporting the
> big principle, drop it and find some other way to support that big
> principle.
>
> That's just one example of how thinking in terms of big principles, instead
> of specific rules, can help. Try applying that to food.
>
> Kids don't need "crafts," by the way, if by that you mean a specific craft
> project that involves following instructions, etc. My oldest daughter IS an
> artist and even makes some actual money selling her creations at boutiques
> these days. She has always loved to have her hands busily creating art of
> all kinds. When she was 6 and I had a 4 year old and a 1 year old - we had
> art supplies outdoors really a lot. We had an easel and big sheets of paper
> and lots of tempera paint to play with outside. We made playdough
> frequently - added all kinds of stuff to it such as oatmeal or pineapple
> flavoring. That was played with outdoors on the patio, too. They played
> with fingerpaints in the bathtub (and sometimes fingerpainted with instant
> pudding in the tub). I bought really super good quality colored pencils
> and crayons and there was always a lot of paper of all kinds around.
> Scissors and tape were available. The pencils, scissors, tape, and paper
> were kept up all in a clear plastic box up just out of reach of the 1 yo.
> Clean up meant dumping everything back into the big plastic box and putting
> it back up on a shelf.
>
> Again, they don't need craft projects, but art supplies, yes. We had a card
> table set up in a bedroom and they would take the art supplies box and go
> in there and shut the door and I'd keep the 1 year old happy somewhere
> else.
>
> Make things interesting by adding things to the art supplies box over time.
> Add a single hole puncher. Add some yarn. Add some old birthday cards or
> holiday cards. Popsicle sticks. Whatever you run into, add it. Just put
> them in the box - you don't have to make up a project to do with them.
>
> Again - what is the big principle here? Offer stimulating and interesting
> learning activities, maybe?
>
> I think you need to think more in terms of setting the stage for letting
> them learn and less about yourself being in charge.
>
> I want to go back to the family closeness thing and dinner. My family is
> really very very close. My oldest daughter is 27 and married and she and
> her husband moved into a house that is a 1-minute walk from our front door.
> They love living that close to us. My daughters are each others' best
> friends. We still do things as a family all the time - we all talk to each
> other every day. All that - and we had very few "family dinners" when the
> kids were growing up - those we had happened spontaneously or on special
> occasions.
>
> What counts for family closeness is shared experience. That's what that
> whole family dinner is supposed to create. But difficult, uncomfortable,
> forced family dinners don't create closeness - they create a desire to get
> away/escape.
>
> It is much much better to have lots of small moments of joy and kindness!
> It is all the small moments that build up over lifetimes to become real
> family closeness. Family dinner is intended to make sure there is time for
> loving family members to connect - that's it. Nothing else magical about
> it. But it is forced and artificial and unnatural to children to sit down
> for a meal like that. Children would almost always rather "graze" on food
> throughout the day and it is more healthy for them to do that. If you are
> worried about nutrition, forcing kids to sit at a dinner table and eat
> certain foods (or refuse to eat them and have all that negativity) is a
> sure-fire way to contribute to them having problems with food later on.
> Better to put your effort into having nutritious snacks that they can eat
> when hungry. Make a list of very simple, good, healthy foods that you can
> throw together. Make a list of dinners for you and your husband, too, that
> are super quick. Use only a few ingredients, not complicated recipes. For
> these years, while you have little children, you and your husband can eat
> very simply. Bread and soup is a good option, for example, that can be
> delicious and nutritious and super quick.
>
> Big principle - supply kids with foods that will make them happy and
> healthy. Not a rule - they must eat the dinner I cook and if they don't
> like that choose from a few limited options.
>
> It is hard to get a clear head when you have almost no down time, but you
> are looking at individual trees and missing the beauty of the forrest.
>
> Think a lot more about the process and not so much about product. The
> process is good if people are happy. That's the test that matters, not how
> good the product is.
>
> -pam
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chris ester

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, jenlea79 <jenlea79@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> <<<<<<<Thanks! Yes I've read the stuff in those links, and just reread
> them again :) I'm not really finding an answer to my specific questions.
> It's really only dinner time I have issue with - taking the time/effort to
> cook and then my kids refusing to eat (it's usually "I don't like that!" as
> opposed to not being hungry). >>>>
>

Can you find simpler quicker meals that are still nutritious? Have you
considered a family buffet? Have you asked your children what they like?
Perhaps found something that everyone could participate in making?

When my children were young we would have homemade pizza night. In the
morning I would mix up the dough (or you can purchase ready made bread
dough and thaw it out overnight) and leave it to raise all day in the
fridge. Either I would put the dough on a well greased jelly roll pan or
the kids would (depending on their readiness to do this) and then we would
all put toppings on either part of it or all of it. We would take votes
sometimes or it would be a free for all. Either way, we ate, we had fun
and it was all rather healthy.

Perhaps your children are trying to express their autonomy. Perhaps the
point of eating is to be physically nourished so that you can grow, not to
contemplate your day, at least when you are under the age of 7.

<<<<<In theory, applying radical unschooling principles to
> food/eating/dinner sounds great, but in practice it just doesn't seem to
> work well for us. As far as "rules" go, I keep using them in quotes because
> they aren't rules in the sense that anybody is punished by not obeying
> them, it's just a set of ideals that we strongly encourage? >>>>>>
>
You keep linking rules with punishment that is active and obvious.
Disapproval can be punishing, especially if you are young and small and
dependent. Becoming stressed and unhappy and fretful during meal time can
be punishing. My children rarely sat down to eat until they were 8 or 9.
They wandered and grazed all day. Some weeks they would eat almost nothing
but fruit and some veggies and almost all of it would be raw. Some days
they would hit the grains and nuts with some sugar (this is when I started
using rapadura that at least has minerals and iron). My son would only eat
porridge with spices (cinnamon, nutmeg and the like), my daughter with only
fruit. Other weeks would be a dairy week or an egg week. I started
keeping track and over the course of a month, they would hit all of the
nutritional blocks.

As they got older and more able to adapt, they would usually come to the
table and sit with my husband and I, even if they didn't eat. They would
often bring some little toy or something to amuse themselves and we would
engage with them about their latest creation. Legos were great for that.
They will grow up faster than you realize and then you will have the
opportunity to have quiet meals. If you are feeling overwhelmed and need a
quiet moment, find a way to have that at a different time.

> >>>>>Yes the one year old enjoys being held, and that is that problem! He
> always wants to be held or nursed. WE've never done great with carriers or
> the like. I am very small-framed and all of the styles I've tried hurt my
> neck/back. The youngest doesn't like riding in them anyway, unless we are
> moving constantly, like hiking or something.<<<<<
>
The one year old is in a developmental place where he will have separation
anxiety. This is a normal natural developmental step for a child that has
formed a healthy attachment. Hurray! your child is developing and growing
and healthfully attached to you!! This 'phase' will pass (some would say
like a kidney stone--painfully) and then it will fade from your memory.
Have you tried the sling style of baby carrier?

Have you ever tried a rocking meditation with your littlest or the older
two (because they aren't that old afterall)? I used to do this with my
kids to soothe them when they were tiny. I would sit comfortably, with
them snuggled closely in my arms/on my lap (depending on how big they were)
and would hum or sing and rock in a nice rhythmic pattern. ' The ants go
marching' is good for that. It usually provided a calm spot.

All three of your children are growing and changing really fast, because
that is what children at that age do. Take joy in their health and vigor
and the strength of personality that they all have. Watching my children
unfold like an amazing blossom is the most fun of parenting.
Chris

>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 5, 2011, at 10:24 AM, jenlea79 wrote:

> to needing/wanting seim-structured and planned lessons and activities, which I don't believe is inherently bad by the way.

One of the problems in school thinking is that statements about a middle core of children are then assumed to apply to individual kids.

Some kids love planned activities. Some will put up with them if they're interesting. But there's a chunk of kids who really dislike them.

Unschooling is about each of your kids as individuals. If one of your kids doesn't like planned lessons and activities it's bad for her learning. Period.

> I stronly feel like I NEED to have at least a general idea of what we want to do during the week, with some planned/structured activities. This takes planning of course, and then when all of my ideas (or even ideas we've come up with together) are rejected I get very frustrated.


It sounds like you're planning too big. Keep it simple. A trip to the park. Finger painting. Crayons. Legos. Video or computer games. Your role isn't to set up a path for them to follow but to set up the environment for them to explore.

> the other who really LOVES organization and planning and having purpose and direction in life.


Organize the house. Organize their stuff. Organize what you need to take off for a spontaneous outing. Make it easier to be spontaneous.

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

alma

I practice both radical unschooling and Buddhism. I loosely followed many Buddhist practices before becoming a parent but when I became a parent I found much of my Buddhist practice went out the window (lack of time, energy, headspace, no opportunity to be part of a sangha or go on retreat). As my children got older I discovered radical unschooling. As they got older still I reached out to Buddhism again, and it was then that I realised the immense overlap between Buddhist practice and radical unschooling. My Buddhist teacher said once that Buddhism is a way of life that can be lived without ever having heard of Buddhism, that aliens could arrive, tell us about their values and way of life and we could say, "Ah, they're Buddhists." When she said that I immediately thought of Sandra :-)

I'm saying this because I don't want you to back off from this list because of any perceived lack of understanding of the importance of Buddhism in your life. Advice on this list has helped me no end to see that my children give me fantastic opportunities to develop as a parent, a person and a Buddhist practitioner. That is because so much of the advice on this list is about truly opening your eyes and heart to your actual real children in front of you, and how you can be aware and kind and connected to them.

There is so much good advice given on this thread but I'd like to add a couple of things

You said
=-=-= We like [family dinner] to be a time for quiet nourishment and reflection on our day together as a family. I am a practicing Buddhist and I try to encourage mindful eating. It's difficult when everyone is running around crazy. So there are a few reasons we prefer everyone sit and eat dinner together in the evening. =-=-=

I would like to reiterate what others have said about this being about your needs. I'm not sure what the most important aspect of this is for you but here are some thoughts

·When the children are asleep/otherwise engaged the adults can have this kind of meal.
·When the children are eating the adults might introduce mindful eating practices.
·Evening dinner time is often the most crazy time in many homes with young children. Maybe early mornings, after a meal or bedtimes would be easier for quiet family reflection.

I guess these points add up to meeting the children where they are, rather than dragging them to where you are. I try to be opportunistic about these quiet reflective times with my family. Sometimes with one child, sometimes with whole family etc. But I try to be mindful of them when they arise rather than try and pin them down to a schedule.

You said
=-=-= Perfection is not the goal, avoiding complete chaos and making sure everyone's needs, including the grown-ups in the house, are met. I just feel that some routine and guidelines can help in that regard. =-=-=

You mention you like structure and routine and if this is the case it may feel chaotic and overwhelming without it. I have found that if I am mindful I notice the rhythms that arise in our family, bits of which may last days, weeks or longer. If I fall in with them as much as possible rather than decide in advance what they should be, it is sooo much easier.

Another tip I believe I read here once that might appeal to your love of structure is, rather than to plan what is going to happen today/tomorrow, you could try to record what has happened yesterday/today. When I did this I discovered so much about the good things that were happening and, even more surprisingly, solutions for problems just kept popping up.

Another thought, on the practical side, regarding the mess. Is it possible in your home to have a room reserved for quiet, peaceful, non-messy activities, even a bedroom? We have one room in our house that I try to keep 5 minutes from peaceful. This means I steer things away from this room if messy, I pay more attention to tidying and cleaning it, I keep candles and matches handy etc.

I could keep on writing and writing and I think it is because I really feel for where you are. So much of what you say reminds me of where I was at the point just before really getting it.

Alison
DS1(9) and DS2(6)


--- In [email protected], "jenlea79" <jenlea79@...> wrote:
>
> I don't quite follow this. I was simply answering your question about the reasons for the dinner "rules", and thought I would mention that reason. I did not randomly throw that out there to make myself seem one way or the other. Yes, mindfulness and living in the moment is at the core of Buddhist teachings. However, so is simplicity. Perfection is not the goal, avoiding complete chaos and making sure everyone's needs, including the grown-ups in the house, are met. I just feel that some routine and guidelines can help in that regard. But this is apparently a very basic and broad argument against radical unschooling, that I am sure you have addressed a zillion times. I am not trying to live up to the label of unschooling or radical unschooling. Another core teaching of Buddhism, is that attachment leads to suffering. I'm not going to attach myself to the idea that I absolutely can't ask my children to abide by certain guidelines to make this household run more smoothly.
>
> You seem to be impying that I am wanting to claim to be an unschooler and a buddhist just for the heck of it, without really believing in the principles of either. This is completely untrue. I despise labels. I rarely mention either to anybody, as I don't see a need to. I'm simply trying out different philosophies of life because I see those around me suffering greatly and want something different for my family.
>
> I'm going to stop now, because there's no use keeping on.
>
> I made a mistake posting in this group. I am truly sorry.
>

mightylittledude

Reading these posts, I was thinking that what may help you would be to try to at least pinpoint the 'shoulds' in your own mind. As others have mentioned. 

Sometimes if I am feeling very negative about something, it is because my idea of the outcome does not match reality (eg: I want to go outside, and i want my son to want to go outside, but my son wants to stay indoors). I can start to get frustrated, and annoyed with my child. Often this is because I am thinking he 'should' go outside, but if I can let go of that idea, maybe I can see what else lies underneath, and think about trying to meet those needs. Or at least figure out what they are, and whether or not I truly want to bring them into fruition, or can. Eg: perhaps it is okay that my son's needs are staying at home right now playing with Lego, and my need is to get some time outdoors (so maybe I can go outside with my daughter, and my son can stay at home with daddy for an hour or so). Or, if that is not possible, can I accept my desire (for fresh air and sunshine, or a change of scene, eg) and promise myself I will take care of that need maybe tomorrow, or next week say? or find sone other way to 'change the scene' ie: rejuvenate at home (listening to music, having a cup of tea & some chocolate, say). Or could my son come to the park with his Lego?

One other thing that can help with this type of processing, is to try to understand the underlying thoughts (often for me, fears) that drive these conflicts. Eg: fear my son will not get space and time to be physical and run around outside while it's daylight, say, or fear that I will never get outdoors...for your food related thoughts perhaps there is a fear that no nutritious food will get eaten by your children? Of course that is just a guess, used as an example.
My thought is that once you can listen to your fears and underlying needs and desires, and give them respect and space to be heard, then you may well find that you can take onboard the many varied practical suggestions you have been offered by this list.

Of course (I hope this is somewhat assumed) your children's needs are equally valid. They may not be immediately fulfillable (the same way as your own) but I do find that truly listening to them can find a way to meet them, usually. As an example of that, someone posted on an unschooling list about their children wanting to eat some inedible foaming cleaning product. The responses they got were, I thought, very problem-solving and thoughtful. They revolved around trying to see what it was that the children were trying to experience (eating something light and fluffly, or playing with and experiencing the foam, eg). And then, once that had theoretically been figured out, finding solutions to that: spray cream eg, or for the other purpose of playing perhaps shaving foam in the bath. Very occasionally needs/desires can not be met in that moment - I can not go and hug my dear Nana again (because she is no longer alive) or my son's favorite shop is closed, say, so we can't go. And then I try to give room for processing these feelings. And if the example I gave of my son's needs seemed exceptionally out of proportion to my Nana being no longer alive, I do think that there is some very profound learning about the nature of life and the power we have as individuals to change what is unchangeable and those are difficult things to take on board and process. Though if I was desperate to buy something from a closed shop (the only pharmacist in the area, say, and I needed a prescription) I would have options. And the shops in my childhood were always closed on Sundays, which has now changed due to consumer pressure. But hopefully you get my point. Problem solving is the key. I read in your posts that you have some resistance to problem solving & when I find myself doing that, it means that I would benefit greatly from stepping back and exploring what I am really feeling, and afraid of, and what all people involved really need.

I try to remember that many things in life are more negotiable and fluid than they would (at first) appear, at least that is my experience!

And life with three little ones sounds intense! Hang on in there, and try to carve out some calm space or time for yourself if (& when) you can. Or promise yourself you will do that soon.

All the best,
Cornelia