Dealing with Alcoholism
Laura Oliver
My 7 yo daughter's father and I are not together, and we have not been since she was an infant. We were never married, and my daughter and I moved out when she was 4 months old due to his alcoholism and temper. Since then she has seen him regularly (once a week) and he has helped to support her financially. We have worked out a verbal agreement of visitation and child support and have not had to involve the state. He has also agreed not to drink in her presence. He has a history of bad decisions and accidents when drinking (2 DUI's, damaged friends property, injury to himself), and I demanded that if she were to spend the night there, he abstain from alcohol before and during her visit. He was diagnosed with Diabetes last year and has been quite sick on and off since then. Shortly after he was diagnosed, he was very drunk when I picked her up one afternoon. I was furious. When I finally got to talk to him alone 2 days later, I told him I didn't want him to have unsupervised visits with her anymore. because I was concerned about her safety. I also do not want her to be in a situation where she has to call 911 because her father has passed out. He decided to quit drinking, at least that is what he told me. After a while, I let her sleepover again. I had not discussed her father's alcoholism with my daughter, because I didn't want to put my judgmental ideas about him in her mind. A few weeks ago she told me she didn't want to sleepover at his house anymore because he drinks too much and she doesn't feel respected at his house. She told me about a couple of incidents where he got very angry and wanted her to something she was uncomfortable with (ride in a car with him after he got in a fight with his girlfriend, and let the girlfriend tickle her). At that point I told her quite a bit about her dad and my history together, why I left, our agreements, etc. She asked me to tell him she decided not to stay there anymore. I told him, and he said he never meant to make her feel that way and had some things to work on. Two weeks went by, and he called and asked to take her out to lunch. They spent the afternoon together, with family that was visiting for the Thanksgiving week. When I went to pick her up, she said she wanted to sleepover at dad's (one of her 10 yo family members was staying for the week). I let her stay, because it seemed like what she really wanted and because I felt a little better knowing there were other adults around. Well that was a week ago. She has been with them ever since. They took a planned trip to NYC for Thanksgiving and are traveling home today. Here's where I'm looking for advice. If she wants to continue sleepovers when family is not visiting, do I allow it? I try not to control her, just support her decisions, but what about in this situation? I'm genuinely worried about her mental and physical safety when he is drinking. I can not control his drinking, and do not believe he will voluntarily abstain in her presence. Do I stop her from staying there when she wants to? Most friends I talk to do not truly understand unschooling or my attempts at a non-coercive relationship with my daughter. It is hard to listen to their advice with an open mind, because I feel that they think I should be more controlling about most of her choices.
Dola Dasgupta
1. If he is legally not her father then why are you allowing your daughter
to go through this emotional roller coaster ride is what you really need to
examine Laura.
2. One often does not realize the hidden motives and agenda behind our
'reasonable actions'.
3. Listen to your heart and intuition...
4. Are you sending her for the money that he sends? are you controlling him
through your daughter?
5. Your daughter is torn between love and fear. And that is always a crazy
mix up. It is also a projection of your inner turmoil. Be clear as to what
is prudence and use your discernment.
6. As I am reading this it is clear that it is really not about your
daughter but you and your inability to truly let go of this man.
7. He is alchoholic, not your husband and hence you are the sole caretaker
and sole person responsible for your child....Like it or not you are in it
alone....so face it with lot of love and courage.
8. Your daughter is vulnerable to abuse since she is seeking love....You
need to fill the gap yourself....seek help from your family if needed...but
stop to and fro with this man...
9. Send her to school and look for a job.
Much love
Dola
to go through this emotional roller coaster ride is what you really need to
examine Laura.
2. One often does not realize the hidden motives and agenda behind our
'reasonable actions'.
3. Listen to your heart and intuition...
4. Are you sending her for the money that he sends? are you controlling him
through your daughter?
5. Your daughter is torn between love and fear. And that is always a crazy
mix up. It is also a projection of your inner turmoil. Be clear as to what
is prudence and use your discernment.
6. As I am reading this it is clear that it is really not about your
daughter but you and your inability to truly let go of this man.
7. He is alchoholic, not your husband and hence you are the sole caretaker
and sole person responsible for your child....Like it or not you are in it
alone....so face it with lot of love and courage.
8. Your daughter is vulnerable to abuse since she is seeking love....You
need to fill the gap yourself....seek help from your family if needed...but
stop to and fro with this man...
9. Send her to school and look for a job.
Much love
Dola
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Laura Oliver <learn.love.laugh@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> My 7 yo daughter's father and I are not together, and we have not been
> since she was an infant. We were never married, and my daughter and I moved
> out when she was 4 months old due to his alcoholism and temper. Since then
> she has seen him regularly (once a week) and he has helped to support her
> financially. We have worked out a verbal agreement of visitation and child
> support and have not had to involve the state. He has also agreed not to
> drink in her presence. He has a history of bad decisions and accidents when
> drinking (2 DUI's, damaged friends property, injury to himself), and I
> demanded that if she were to spend the night there, he abstain from alcohol
> before and during her visit. He was diagnosed with Diabetes last year and
> has been quite sick on and off since then. Shortly after he was diagnosed,
> he was very drunk when I picked her up one afternoon. I was furious. When I
> finally got to talk to him alone 2 days later, I told him I didn't want him
> to have unsupervised visits with her anymore. because I was concerned about
> her safety. I also do not want her to be in a situation where she has to
> call 911 because her father has passed out. He decided to quit drinking, at
> least that is what he told me. After a while, I let her sleepover again. I
> had not discussed her father's alcoholism with my daughter, because I
> didn't want to put my judgmental ideas about him in her mind. A few weeks
> ago she told me she didn't want to sleepover at his house anymore because
> he drinks too much and she doesn't feel respected at his house. She told me
> about a couple of incidents where he got very angry and wanted her to
> something she was uncomfortable with (ride in a car with him after he got
> in a fight with his girlfriend, and let the girlfriend tickle her). At that
> point I told her quite a bit about her dad and my history together, why I
> left, our agreements, etc. She asked me to tell him she decided not to stay
> there anymore. I told him, and he said he never meant to make her feel that
> way and had some things to work on. Two weeks went by, and he called and
> asked to take her out to lunch. They spent the afternoon together, with
> family that was visiting for the Thanksgiving week. When I went to pick her
> up, she said she wanted to sleepover at dad's (one of her 10 yo family
> members was staying for the week). I let her stay, because it seemed like
> what she really wanted and because I felt a little better knowing there
> were other adults around. Well that was a week ago. She has been with them
> ever since. They took a planned trip to NYC for Thanksgiving and are
> traveling home today. Here's where I'm looking for advice. If she wants to
> continue sleepovers when family is not visiting, do I allow it? I try not
> to control her, just support her decisions, but what about in this
> situation? I'm genuinely worried about her mental and physical safety when
> he is drinking. I can not control his drinking, and do not believe he will
> voluntarily abstain in her presence. Do I stop her from staying there when
> she wants to? Most friends I talk to do not truly understand unschooling or
> my attempts at a non-coercive relationship with my daughter. It is hard to
> listen to their advice with an open mind, because I feel that they think I
> should be more controlling about most of her choices.
>
>
>
--
thou-art-thy-creator
http://thouartthycreator.wordpress.com/
*"Be kind to yourself and others,*
*Come from love every moment you can,*
*Speak of love with others. Remind each other of your spiritual purpose,*
*Never give up hope,*
*Know that you are loved." - Deepak Chopra from Love Sutras...*
*
*
*'Laughter we share generates more laughter, and the love we create
together spreads by leaps and bounds.' *
*
*
*Much love and warmth*
* Dola Dasgupta*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Laura Oliver" <learn.love.laugh@...> wrote:
Here's the catch - what if he really has stopped drinking? but then, how do you know it's the last time?
Get her a cell phone. They make phones for kids where you program in just a few numbers, if you want something like that. Empower her as much as you can to call you if she wants to leave - whether or not you let her sleep over, she needs to be able to get in touch with you. Maybe have her "check in" at intervals.
Play the sleepover thing by ear - you already know she doesn't like to be around him when he's drunk. Don't make a once and for all decision, make a choice every time based on current information.
It's hard to have a parent in the mix who is unreliable for one reason or another. I'm in that situation with my stepson's bio mom - not alcohol, other issues and not recently, but that's the catch, isn't it? You don't know what's next. Things can be fine for months and years and you still don't know. You've already chosen to make your daughter's father a part of her life, and that's not something you can change - she already knows him, now, and values her relationship with him. So it's up to you to support Her in this relationship she values, by giving her ways to see her dad on her own terms, and leave when she's no longer comfortable.
Are you involved with something like Al-anon or ACOA? You should look into those. Lots of information as to what to expect from someone trying to cover up a big problem, and how to live with that.
---Meredith
>If she wants to continue sleepovers when family is not visiting, do I allow it?*****************
Here's the catch - what if he really has stopped drinking? but then, how do you know it's the last time?
Get her a cell phone. They make phones for kids where you program in just a few numbers, if you want something like that. Empower her as much as you can to call you if she wants to leave - whether or not you let her sleep over, she needs to be able to get in touch with you. Maybe have her "check in" at intervals.
Play the sleepover thing by ear - you already know she doesn't like to be around him when he's drunk. Don't make a once and for all decision, make a choice every time based on current information.
It's hard to have a parent in the mix who is unreliable for one reason or another. I'm in that situation with my stepson's bio mom - not alcohol, other issues and not recently, but that's the catch, isn't it? You don't know what's next. Things can be fine for months and years and you still don't know. You've already chosen to make your daughter's father a part of her life, and that's not something you can change - she already knows him, now, and values her relationship with him. So it's up to you to support Her in this relationship she values, by giving her ways to see her dad on her own terms, and leave when she's no longer comfortable.
Are you involved with something like Al-anon or ACOA? You should look into those. Lots of information as to what to expect from someone trying to cover up a big problem, and how to live with that.
---Meredith
linda h
I'm curious, why do some unschooling parents feel that they shouldn't protect their kids from dangerous or scary situations in life. I wouldn't think letting a 7 year old make judgment calls on what is safe is a great idea. Some things we as adults know from experience, wouldn't it be nice if our kids didn't have to go thru the same unpleasantness, if we can protect them, why not.
--- In [email protected], "Laura Oliver" <learn.love.laugh@...> wrote:
>
> My 7 yo daughter's father and I are not together, and we have not been since she was an infant. We were never married, and my daughter and I moved out when she was 4 months old due to his alcoholism and temper. Since then she has seen him regularly (once a week) and he has helped to support her financially. We have worked out a verbal agreement of visitation and child support and have not had to involve the state. He has also agreed not to drink in her presence. He has a history of bad decisions and accidents when drinking (2 DUI's, damaged friends property, injury to himself), and I demanded that if she were to spend the night there, he abstain from alcohol before and during her visit. He was diagnosed with Diabetes last year and has been quite sick on and off since then. Shortly after he was diagnosed, he was very drunk when I picked her up one afternoon. I was furious. When I finally got to talk to him alone 2 days later, I told him I didn't want him to have unsupervised visits with her anymore. because I was concerned about her safety. I also do not want her to be in a situation where she has to call 911 because her father has passed out. He decided to quit drinking, at least that is what he told me. After a while, I let her sleepover again. I had not discussed her father's alcoholism with my daughter, because I didn't want to put my judgmental ideas about him in her mind. A few weeks ago she told me she didn't want to sleepover at his house anymore because he drinks too much and she doesn't feel respected at his house. She told me about a couple of incidents where he got very angry and wanted her to something she was uncomfortable with (ride in a car with him after he got in a fight with his girlfriend, and let the girlfriend tickle her). At that point I told her quite a bit about her dad and my history together, why I left, our agreements, etc. She asked me to tell him she decided not to stay there anymore. I told him, and he said he never meant to make her feel that way and had some things to work on. Two weeks went by, and he called and asked to take her out to lunch. They spent the afternoon together, with family that was visiting for the Thanksgiving week. When I went to pick her up, she said she wanted to sleepover at dad's (one of her 10 yo family members was staying for the week). I let her stay, because it seemed like what she really wanted and because I felt a little better knowing there were other adults around. Well that was a week ago. She has been with them ever since. They took a planned trip to NYC for Thanksgiving and are traveling home today. Here's where I'm looking for advice. If she wants to continue sleepovers when family is not visiting, do I allow it? I try not to control her, just support her decisions, but what about in this situation? I'm genuinely worried about her mental and physical safety when he is drinking. I can not control his drinking, and do not believe he will voluntarily abstain in her presence. Do I stop her from staying there when she wants to?Most friends I talk to do not truly understand unschooling or my attempts at a non-coercive relationship with my daughter. It is hard to listen to their advice with an open mind, because I feel that they think I should be more controlling about most of her choices.
>
Ed Wendell
Even if they never married he has rights as her biological father (in the USA). And a court could determine those rights.
Could you work it out so she spends time with him but not over night? Maybe even short periods of time - like for an hour or two at a time? Meet at a mutual location ? - a park, a play place, a movie, the zoo, etc. Re-read some of the solutions that have been mentioned for grandparents. Some of those might work. Even if you do not stay - for example you could meet him at the zoo and they could go off to be together but you'd pick her up again, those types of solutions might work.
Lisa W.
Could you work it out so she spends time with him but not over night? Maybe even short periods of time - like for an hour or two at a time? Meet at a mutual location ? - a park, a play place, a movie, the zoo, etc. Re-read some of the solutions that have been mentioned for grandparents. Some of those might work. Even if you do not stay - for example you could meet him at the zoo and they could go off to be together but you'd pick her up again, those types of solutions might work.
Lisa W.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dola Dasgupta
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Dealing with Alcoholism
1. If he is legally not her father then why are you allowing your daughter
to go through this emotional roller coaster ride is what you really need to
examine Laura.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm curious, why do some unschooling parents feel that they shouldn't protect their kids from dangerous or scary situations in life.-=-
This is not asked in such a way that you can get a good answer.
I don't think there is ANY unschooling parent who would say "I don't want to protect my kid from danger or from scary situations."
-=- I wouldn't think letting a 7 year old make judgment calls on what is safe is a great idea. -=-
Again, you've worded this in a way that doesn't allow any other thoughts.
Because you wrote it that way, it indicates that you thought of it that way.
The question wasn't "Do you think this is safe?" in advance. It was about how can the situation be made safer.
-=-Some things we as adults know from experience, wouldn't it be nice if our kids didn't have to go thru the same unpleasantness, if we can protect them, why not.-=-
Much of conservative, traditional parenting involves controlling what children see, do, wear, and say. By not giving children choices, a pressure can be built up so that as soon as the child has choices, he makes wild and crazy ones.
Smaller choices at younger ages lead to better choices later on.
I protected my children from a great deal of unpleasantness by avoiding alcoholic relatives, or only visiting them noonish, before the drinking gets going. :-) But I didn't "protect" them by taking away their options "for their own good."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is not asked in such a way that you can get a good answer.
I don't think there is ANY unschooling parent who would say "I don't want to protect my kid from danger or from scary situations."
-=- I wouldn't think letting a 7 year old make judgment calls on what is safe is a great idea. -=-
Again, you've worded this in a way that doesn't allow any other thoughts.
Because you wrote it that way, it indicates that you thought of it that way.
The question wasn't "Do you think this is safe?" in advance. It was about how can the situation be made safer.
-=-Some things we as adults know from experience, wouldn't it be nice if our kids didn't have to go thru the same unpleasantness, if we can protect them, why not.-=-
Much of conservative, traditional parenting involves controlling what children see, do, wear, and say. By not giving children choices, a pressure can be built up so that as soon as the child has choices, he makes wild and crazy ones.
Smaller choices at younger ages lead to better choices later on.
I protected my children from a great deal of unpleasantness by avoiding alcoholic relatives, or only visiting them noonish, before the drinking gets going. :-) But I didn't "protect" them by taking away their options "for their own good."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"linda h" <lhannah3665@...> wrote:
Why do some school parents and homeschooling parents feel that way, for that matter? Some parents go on sending kids to school even when school proves terrifyingly unsafe on a regular basis. That's not an unschooling question its a "what's wrong with people?" question. Some people shouldn't unschool!
When dealing with family dysfunction, however, it's not always obvious that a situation is going to be "dangerous or scary" - that's part of the craziness of dealing with someone who hides a big problem. Everything will seem fine for awhile, they'll say they're doing better, seem to be better. And with a close family member - like a biological parent - you Want to believe its true. You want to be able to trust that your kid can have a real relationship with that beloved person. And sometimes you can. Sometimes people actually do get themselves sorted out. And sometimes parents abduct children when they can't have custody - that's the Most Common child abduction scenario. If you're dealing with an unpredictable biological parent, one you know lies about Big Things, that in and of itself makes for some sleepless nights - what's More scary? What's More dangerous? A day with the other parent? Or the other parent running off with the kid?
It depends on the 7yo and the judgement calls. This particular 7yo has experience dealing with an alcoholic father and knows she doesn't like to be around him when he's drunk - so she Is capable of making That particular judgement call. The problem is she's 7 and can't necessarily Do anything about that judgement call without another adult's direct intervention.
There is No Way of knowing if dad has cleaned up. He might have! It might be perfectly safe for his daughter to stay over at his place regularly from now on and they could build a lovely relationship. More likely it will be an on-again-off-again thing with dad sometimes sober and lovely and sometimes an ass. It's easy to say mom should have thought of that seven years ago and made a different decision, but this is what she's working with now: how to help a child who is inextricably tied up with an alcoholic father and will be even if she's not allowed to visit him because she already loves him.
How to protect a child from a biological parent they love? That's hard. It's especially hard when one parent is saying "daddy is sick" and the other is saying "mommy is wrong, I love you." That's unpleasant enough.
The good news, such as it is, is that this little girl already Knows daddy is sick - or at least she knows what he looks like drunk and knows she doesn't want to be around it. Mom doesn't have to dance around the truth, she can say "I'm worried he'll be drunk" and go from there. But where to go from there may be hard.
Maybe. Maybe the girl won't want to stay with dad unless there are other people around to keep him on the straight and narrow.
---Meredith
>******************
> I'm curious, why do some unschooling parents feel that they shouldn't protect their kids from dangerous or scary situations in life.
Why do some school parents and homeschooling parents feel that way, for that matter? Some parents go on sending kids to school even when school proves terrifyingly unsafe on a regular basis. That's not an unschooling question its a "what's wrong with people?" question. Some people shouldn't unschool!
When dealing with family dysfunction, however, it's not always obvious that a situation is going to be "dangerous or scary" - that's part of the craziness of dealing with someone who hides a big problem. Everything will seem fine for awhile, they'll say they're doing better, seem to be better. And with a close family member - like a biological parent - you Want to believe its true. You want to be able to trust that your kid can have a real relationship with that beloved person. And sometimes you can. Sometimes people actually do get themselves sorted out. And sometimes parents abduct children when they can't have custody - that's the Most Common child abduction scenario. If you're dealing with an unpredictable biological parent, one you know lies about Big Things, that in and of itself makes for some sleepless nights - what's More scary? What's More dangerous? A day with the other parent? Or the other parent running off with the kid?
>> I wouldn't think letting a 7 year old make judgment calls on what is safe is a great idea.*****************
It depends on the 7yo and the judgement calls. This particular 7yo has experience dealing with an alcoholic father and knows she doesn't like to be around him when he's drunk - so she Is capable of making That particular judgement call. The problem is she's 7 and can't necessarily Do anything about that judgement call without another adult's direct intervention.
There is No Way of knowing if dad has cleaned up. He might have! It might be perfectly safe for his daughter to stay over at his place regularly from now on and they could build a lovely relationship. More likely it will be an on-again-off-again thing with dad sometimes sober and lovely and sometimes an ass. It's easy to say mom should have thought of that seven years ago and made a different decision, but this is what she's working with now: how to help a child who is inextricably tied up with an alcoholic father and will be even if she's not allowed to visit him because she already loves him.
>>Some things we as adults know from experience, wouldn't it be nice if our kids didn't have to go thru the same unpleasantness, if we can protect them, why not.*********************
How to protect a child from a biological parent they love? That's hard. It's especially hard when one parent is saying "daddy is sick" and the other is saying "mommy is wrong, I love you." That's unpleasant enough.
The good news, such as it is, is that this little girl already Knows daddy is sick - or at least she knows what he looks like drunk and knows she doesn't want to be around it. Mom doesn't have to dance around the truth, she can say "I'm worried he'll be drunk" and go from there. But where to go from there may be hard.
Maybe. Maybe the girl won't want to stay with dad unless there are other people around to keep him on the straight and narrow.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-1. If he is legally not her father then why are you allowing your daughter
to go through this emotional roller coaster ride is what you really need to
examine Laura.-=-
Rather than address an individual, in this discussion the ideal is to discuss the situation.
The laws might be different in India, but in the U.S. if the father has admitted paternity and his name is on the birth certificate, he IS legally the child's father.
Making the situation to be about the mother and her former boyfriend completely cuts the child out of consideration, and that's not good.
-=-4. Are you sending her for the money that he sends? are you controlling him
through your daughter?-=-
The mother isn't "sending her." She's allowing her to go when she/the daughter wants to go.
-=-5. Your daughter is torn between love and fear. And that is always a crazy
mix up. It is also a projection of your inner turmoil. Be clear as to what
is prudence and use your discernment.-=-
I don't see that the realities of the situation at the dad's house have ANYthing to do with the mother's "inner turmoil," nor is it a projection of that. The father is a real, whole person. The daughter is a real, whole person. They exist apart from the mother.
-=-6. As I am reading this it is clear that it is really not about your
daughter but you and your inability to truly let go of this man.-=-
It is NOT clear. As you read it, you created a scenario about a controlling relationship that I didn't see at all.
Even reading it again and squinting hard, I can't see anything about "not letting go." But the projection could be in the thoughts of the author of the list of things. Be careful about assuring someone else that something is "clearly" a projection.
-=-7. He is alchoholic, not your husband and hence you are the sole caretaker
and sole person responsible for your child....Like it or not you are in it
alone....so face it with lot of love and courage.-=-
The mother is not "in it alone." She might have the greater responsibility, but she is not the sole caretaker.
-=-8. Your daughter is vulnerable to abuse since she is seeking love....You
need to fill the gap yourself....seek help from your family if needed...but
stop to and fro with this man...-=-
She will be more vulnerable to abuse if the mother limits, controls and walls her up. That in itself would be a form of abuse, and if the father needed to take legal action to have visits with the daughter, the court would name the terms. As it stands now, the mother and daughter can name the terms entirely--frequency, duration, cancellation. A judge could declare full weekends or something, and the daughter wouldn't have the right to call the mom for a rescue if she felt unsafe.
-=-9. Send her to school and look for a job.
Much love-=-
Please don't sign "much love" when writing to this list, and to strangers. It's inappropriate.
If you love unschooling and you love helping people, "send her to school and look for a job" is not a good way to show it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to go through this emotional roller coaster ride is what you really need to
examine Laura.-=-
Rather than address an individual, in this discussion the ideal is to discuss the situation.
The laws might be different in India, but in the U.S. if the father has admitted paternity and his name is on the birth certificate, he IS legally the child's father.
Making the situation to be about the mother and her former boyfriend completely cuts the child out of consideration, and that's not good.
-=-4. Are you sending her for the money that he sends? are you controlling him
through your daughter?-=-
The mother isn't "sending her." She's allowing her to go when she/the daughter wants to go.
-=-5. Your daughter is torn between love and fear. And that is always a crazy
mix up. It is also a projection of your inner turmoil. Be clear as to what
is prudence and use your discernment.-=-
I don't see that the realities of the situation at the dad's house have ANYthing to do with the mother's "inner turmoil," nor is it a projection of that. The father is a real, whole person. The daughter is a real, whole person. They exist apart from the mother.
-=-6. As I am reading this it is clear that it is really not about your
daughter but you and your inability to truly let go of this man.-=-
It is NOT clear. As you read it, you created a scenario about a controlling relationship that I didn't see at all.
Even reading it again and squinting hard, I can't see anything about "not letting go." But the projection could be in the thoughts of the author of the list of things. Be careful about assuring someone else that something is "clearly" a projection.
-=-7. He is alchoholic, not your husband and hence you are the sole caretaker
and sole person responsible for your child....Like it or not you are in it
alone....so face it with lot of love and courage.-=-
The mother is not "in it alone." She might have the greater responsibility, but she is not the sole caretaker.
-=-8. Your daughter is vulnerable to abuse since she is seeking love....You
need to fill the gap yourself....seek help from your family if needed...but
stop to and fro with this man...-=-
She will be more vulnerable to abuse if the mother limits, controls and walls her up. That in itself would be a form of abuse, and if the father needed to take legal action to have visits with the daughter, the court would name the terms. As it stands now, the mother and daughter can name the terms entirely--frequency, duration, cancellation. A judge could declare full weekends or something, and the daughter wouldn't have the right to call the mom for a rescue if she felt unsafe.
-=-9. Send her to school and look for a job.
Much love-=-
Please don't sign "much love" when writing to this list, and to strangers. It's inappropriate.
If you love unschooling and you love helping people, "send her to school and look for a job" is not a good way to show it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My 7 yo daughter's father and I are not together, and we have not been since she was an infant. We were never married, and my daughter and I moved out when she was 4 months old due to his alcoholism and temper.-=-
As the chosen topic is "Dealing with Alcoholism," I concur with the advice about al-Anon. At least read online about what is recommended. It's possible that a group for your daughter would be useful, if not now then later on. Ala-Teen; there might be something for younger kids, too.
Perhaps a better way to look at this is about how to empower your daughter to have visits that are safer and on her terms. If she has a phone and can call for a ride, and if you're available to pick her up at any time she's there, that could be the solution.
Morning visits, mid-day visits, public places... all those seem to be possible ideas, too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As the chosen topic is "Dealing with Alcoholism," I concur with the advice about al-Anon. At least read online about what is recommended. It's possible that a group for your daughter would be useful, if not now then later on. Ala-Teen; there might be something for younger kids, too.
Perhaps a better way to look at this is about how to empower your daughter to have visits that are safer and on her terms. If she has a phone and can call for a ride, and if you're available to pick her up at any time she's there, that could be the solution.
Morning visits, mid-day visits, public places... all those seem to be possible ideas, too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Dola Dasgupta <doladg@...> wrote:
''legal father". In most states it does not take much to be a legal
father. I also want to point out that as her father he does have parental
rights and to abridge a parent's rights takes a lot of doing. She was wise
to keep the state uninvolved.
It seems to me that this is a mom who has handled a bad situation very
well. She cannot undo who her daughter's father is.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **I am confused as to how you came to the conclusion that he is not her
>
>
> ********1. If he is legally not her father then.....********
>
''legal father". In most states it does not take much to be a legal
father. I also want to point out that as her father he does have parental
rights and to abridge a parent's rights takes a lot of doing. She was wise
to keep the state uninvolved.
It seems to me that this is a mom who has handled a bad situation very
well. She cannot undo who her daughter's father is.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nicolaphillips88
My Dad was / is an alcholic (my parents split over it )
totally agree with the mobile phone idea.
your child could need a DR what if he is too drunk to notice or get her to a DR . ... ? ?
my dad was good as making us feeling guilty, making us spend more time with him than i really wanted-
i think having a code word - for situations like -Dad wants me to stay , i dont want to, but feel i should say im happy bout staying infront of him ... wish i had that with my mum. was only when i was 15 when i said to mum how i felt - she had NO IDEA. coz i was saying yes ok but really ment, i feel i have to say yes but i dont want to - dad makes me feel i need to say i want to say.
i dont feel any child is safe, staying with an alcholic . father or not. You have to be 100% responsible. he has to choose bottle or his daughter... end off. with much love Nicola xx
totally agree with the mobile phone idea.
your child could need a DR what if he is too drunk to notice or get her to a DR . ... ? ?
my dad was good as making us feeling guilty, making us spend more time with him than i really wanted-
i think having a code word - for situations like -Dad wants me to stay , i dont want to, but feel i should say im happy bout staying infront of him ... wish i had that with my mum. was only when i was 15 when i said to mum how i felt - she had NO IDEA. coz i was saying yes ok but really ment, i feel i have to say yes but i dont want to - dad makes me feel i need to say i want to say.
i dont feel any child is safe, staying with an alcholic . father or not. You have to be 100% responsible. he has to choose bottle or his daughter... end off. with much love Nicola xx
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "Laura Oliver" <learn.love.laugh@> wrote:
> >If she wants to continue sleepovers when family is not visiting, do I allow it?
> *****************
>
> Here's the catch - what if he really has stopped drinking? but then, how do you know it's the last time?
>
> Get her a cell phone. They make phones for kids where you program in just a few numbers, if you want something like that. Empower her as much as you can to call you if she wants to leave - whether or not you let her sleep over, she needs to be able to get in touch with you. Maybe have her "check in" at intervals.
>
> Play the sleepover thing by ear - you already know she doesn't like to be around him when he's drunk. Don't make a once and for all decision, make a choice every time based on current information.
>
> It's hard to have a parent in the mix who is unreliable for one reason or another. I'm in that situation with my stepson's bio mom - not alcohol, other issues and not recently, but that's the catch, isn't it? You don't know what's next. Things can be fine for months and years and you still don't know. You've already chosen to make your daughter's father a part of her life, and that's not something you can change - she already knows him, now, and values her relationship with him. So it's up to you to support Her in this relationship she values, by giving her ways to see her dad on her own terms, and leave when she's no longer comfortable.
>
> Are you involved with something like Al-anon or ACOA? You should look into those. Lots of information as to what to expect from someone trying to cover up a big problem, and how to live with that.
>
> ---Meredith
>
chris ester
I was a social worker for many years and took some course work as well as
self study about
addictions in general. I also worked with more addicts than I can count
and had a bunch of addicts in my family. Most of the addicts that I was
related to are now dead, mostly due to complications that come with the
various addictions.
So here are some facts as I have learned them:
1. Alcohol withdrawal can kill a healthy person. If he has been drinking
nearly every day or (more probably) every day, and now has diabetes then he
is probably doing what Alcoholics Anonymous veterans call "drinking to be
normal". He actually needs alcohol to function now. His physiology has so
adapted to alcohol that the only safe way for him to really quit would be
in a hospital under medical supervision.
Alcohol withdrawal is the only withdrawal process that has a high
probability of being fatal.
So basically, him claiming not to drink before and during the visits with
his daughter are, more likely than not, a lie.
2. Which brings me to the next point, addicts LIE. They can't help
themselves, they can't even be honest with themselves. Recovery jargon
calls it, "Swimming in the biggest river in the world--da' Nile (denial)".
Along with denial comes a rejection of personal responsibility for their
life and problems. An addict is always a victim of circumstances.
One of the most frustrating and most obvious marks of addiction is
denial-of being an addict, of having any problem, of their substance
use/abuse being a problem. As part of the addiction process, addicts
become amazingly good liars because they actually believe what they are
telling you (and themselves).
3. Children who spend any time with an alcoholic parent become very adept
at gauging a person's sobriety and truthfulness. They can also grow to
have issues with trust and truthfulness themselves. If this is the case,
call her on any 'fibs' that she tells, but be supportive and discuss why
she felt she couldn't tell you the truth.
Your daughter can probably describe her father's drinking behavior and the
effects of the alcohol very well. One of the smartest things that you have
done is to NOT deny that her father has a problem. Children have an
uncanny sense of bullsh*t and she needs to be able to trust you.
Your daughter probably loves her father for who he is, helping her
understand that he is broken and can only be so reliable is your best bet.
You will have to find a delicate balance between placing your daughter in a
role of taking care of her father or enabling him and allowing her to
experience her personal reality of having an alcoholic parent. You can't
protect her from her reality, you can only help her to cope with her
situation. Empower her to set limits that are for her benefit. Make it
clear that she is the first priority, not her dad's feelings.
Discuss your concerns with her if she wants to stay overnight with her dad
without any one else there as a safety net. The idea of a phone is a good
one. Talking about 911 and when to call is also not a bad idea.
Attempting to cut off visits could result in your daughter feeling that she
has to protect her father and their relationship from you. I think you
have been wise to respect her feelings about visits. But if their seems to
be a dangerous situation that she is not picking up on, I would definitely
pull her aside and talk to her about why I feel like a visit at that time
isn't a good idea. Stress her well being and safety.
Also, don't call him 'sick' or some other euphemism; drinking problem,
thinking problem, or problem are all good options. That way, when he is
actually sick with a physical ailment (like diabetes), and he will be, it
will be clear that he is physically sick.
I would definitely suggest connecting with ACOA, or alanon for information
and support.
You may also consider speaking to your daughter's father and tell him that
he will die an early death and leave his daughter without a father if he
does not get help. Especially with diabetes. He will probably not listen,
but it is worth a try. But the bulk of your concern should be getting
information so that you can answer your daughter's questions.
4. Addiction is progressive. If an addict does not get help then the
addiction and the behaviors of the addict will get worse. If an addict
gets some help, then know that relapse is a part of the recovery process.
It usually takes several attempts before recovery really sets in.
Also, an addict that abstains and doesn't get therapy and support to
address the issues that helped the addiction develop (an alcoholic is a
drunk because they drink) as well as the issues that came from the
addiction will just be an addict that isn't using. Their relationships and
how they navigate life will not change much and they will only be
moderately more healthy.
If your child notices that the addicted parent has been abstaining, try to
not let them set too much store on the good news. Try to gently explain
that using one time means going back to the beginning and that it is very
easy to use and very hard to stay clean. This is where knowledge is
important. When AA says 'one day at a time', they mean it. Sometimes it
is one hour, one minute at a time.
The final thing I want to address is that there is some evidence that there
is a genetic basis for becoming an addict. It is not destiny, but it is
important that you get information about substance use and abuse and how
addiction works and how it can be prevented. Then, share honest
information with your daughter.
My husband and I started when our children were very young, (4 or 5)
talking about drug use and abuse. Most of the addicts that I have known
actually used for the first time when they were around 10 years old. We
didn't and don't condemn substance use (which includes all addictive
substances including nicotine and caffeine, as well as prescription drugs),
but we talk about choices and consequences of our choices. We don't want
our children believing that substance use is all or nothing. Some drugs
can be very good for us if we need them, but can be very bad if we overuse
them, vitamins and tylenol are two examples that I use often. Some drugs
are almost never good for you to use, nicotine and alcohol are two that I
have talked about as an example of these.
I hope that this isn't too much information and I hope that it helps.
Chris
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Laura Oliver
<learn.love.laugh@...>wrote:
self study about
addictions in general. I also worked with more addicts than I can count
and had a bunch of addicts in my family. Most of the addicts that I was
related to are now dead, mostly due to complications that come with the
various addictions.
So here are some facts as I have learned them:
1. Alcohol withdrawal can kill a healthy person. If he has been drinking
nearly every day or (more probably) every day, and now has diabetes then he
is probably doing what Alcoholics Anonymous veterans call "drinking to be
normal". He actually needs alcohol to function now. His physiology has so
adapted to alcohol that the only safe way for him to really quit would be
in a hospital under medical supervision.
Alcohol withdrawal is the only withdrawal process that has a high
probability of being fatal.
So basically, him claiming not to drink before and during the visits with
his daughter are, more likely than not, a lie.
2. Which brings me to the next point, addicts LIE. They can't help
themselves, they can't even be honest with themselves. Recovery jargon
calls it, "Swimming in the biggest river in the world--da' Nile (denial)".
Along with denial comes a rejection of personal responsibility for their
life and problems. An addict is always a victim of circumstances.
One of the most frustrating and most obvious marks of addiction is
denial-of being an addict, of having any problem, of their substance
use/abuse being a problem. As part of the addiction process, addicts
become amazingly good liars because they actually believe what they are
telling you (and themselves).
3. Children who spend any time with an alcoholic parent become very adept
at gauging a person's sobriety and truthfulness. They can also grow to
have issues with trust and truthfulness themselves. If this is the case,
call her on any 'fibs' that she tells, but be supportive and discuss why
she felt she couldn't tell you the truth.
Your daughter can probably describe her father's drinking behavior and the
effects of the alcohol very well. One of the smartest things that you have
done is to NOT deny that her father has a problem. Children have an
uncanny sense of bullsh*t and she needs to be able to trust you.
Your daughter probably loves her father for who he is, helping her
understand that he is broken and can only be so reliable is your best bet.
You will have to find a delicate balance between placing your daughter in a
role of taking care of her father or enabling him and allowing her to
experience her personal reality of having an alcoholic parent. You can't
protect her from her reality, you can only help her to cope with her
situation. Empower her to set limits that are for her benefit. Make it
clear that she is the first priority, not her dad's feelings.
Discuss your concerns with her if she wants to stay overnight with her dad
without any one else there as a safety net. The idea of a phone is a good
one. Talking about 911 and when to call is also not a bad idea.
Attempting to cut off visits could result in your daughter feeling that she
has to protect her father and their relationship from you. I think you
have been wise to respect her feelings about visits. But if their seems to
be a dangerous situation that she is not picking up on, I would definitely
pull her aside and talk to her about why I feel like a visit at that time
isn't a good idea. Stress her well being and safety.
Also, don't call him 'sick' or some other euphemism; drinking problem,
thinking problem, or problem are all good options. That way, when he is
actually sick with a physical ailment (like diabetes), and he will be, it
will be clear that he is physically sick.
I would definitely suggest connecting with ACOA, or alanon for information
and support.
You may also consider speaking to your daughter's father and tell him that
he will die an early death and leave his daughter without a father if he
does not get help. Especially with diabetes. He will probably not listen,
but it is worth a try. But the bulk of your concern should be getting
information so that you can answer your daughter's questions.
4. Addiction is progressive. If an addict does not get help then the
addiction and the behaviors of the addict will get worse. If an addict
gets some help, then know that relapse is a part of the recovery process.
It usually takes several attempts before recovery really sets in.
Also, an addict that abstains and doesn't get therapy and support to
address the issues that helped the addiction develop (an alcoholic is a
drunk because they drink) as well as the issues that came from the
addiction will just be an addict that isn't using. Their relationships and
how they navigate life will not change much and they will only be
moderately more healthy.
If your child notices that the addicted parent has been abstaining, try to
not let them set too much store on the good news. Try to gently explain
that using one time means going back to the beginning and that it is very
easy to use and very hard to stay clean. This is where knowledge is
important. When AA says 'one day at a time', they mean it. Sometimes it
is one hour, one minute at a time.
The final thing I want to address is that there is some evidence that there
is a genetic basis for becoming an addict. It is not destiny, but it is
important that you get information about substance use and abuse and how
addiction works and how it can be prevented. Then, share honest
information with your daughter.
My husband and I started when our children were very young, (4 or 5)
talking about drug use and abuse. Most of the addicts that I have known
actually used for the first time when they were around 10 years old. We
didn't and don't condemn substance use (which includes all addictive
substances including nicotine and caffeine, as well as prescription drugs),
but we talk about choices and consequences of our choices. We don't want
our children believing that substance use is all or nothing. Some drugs
can be very good for us if we need them, but can be very bad if we overuse
them, vitamins and tylenol are two examples that I use often. Some drugs
are almost never good for you to use, nicotine and alcohol are two that I
have talked about as an example of these.
I hope that this isn't too much information and I hope that it helps.
Chris
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Laura Oliver
<learn.love.laugh@...>wrote:
> **[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> My 7 yo daughter's father and I are not together, and we have not been
> since she was an infant. We were never married, and my daughter and I moved
> out when she was 4 months old due to his alcoholism and temper. Since then
> she has seen him regularly (once a week) and he has helped to support her
> financially. We have worked out a verbal agreement of visitation and child
> support and have not had to involve the state. He has also agreed not to
> drink in her presence. He has a history of bad decisions and accidents when
> drinking (2 DUI's, damaged friends property, injury to himself), and I
> demanded that if she were to spend the night there, he abstain from alcohol
> before and during her visit. He was diagnosed with Diabetes last year and
> has been quite sick on and off since then. Shortly after he was diagnosed,
> he was very drunk when I picked her up one afternoon. I was furious. When I
> finally got to talk to him alone 2 days later, I told him I didn't want him
> to have unsupervised visits with her anymore. because I was concerned about
> her safety. I also do not want her to be in a situation where she has to
> call 911 because her father has passed out. He decided to quit drinking, at
> least that is what he told me. After a while, I let her sleepover again. I
> had not discussed her father's alcoholism with my daughter, because I
> didn't want to put my judgmental ideas about him in her mind. A few weeks
> ago she told me she didn't want to sleepover at his house anymore because
> he drinks too much and she doesn't feel respected at his house. She told me
> about a couple of incidents where he got very angry and wanted her to
> something she was uncomfortable with (ride in a car with him after he got
> in a fight with his girlfriend, and let the girlfriend tickle her). At that
> point I told her quite a bit about her dad and my history together, why I
> left, our agreements, etc. She asked me to tell him she decided not to stay
> there anymore. I told him, and he said he never meant to make her feel that
> way and had some things to work on. Two weeks went by, and he called and
> asked to take her out to lunch. They spent the afternoon together, with
> family that was visiting for the Thanksgiving week. When I went to pick her
> up, she said she wanted to sleepover at dad's (one of her 10 yo family
> members was staying for the week). I let her stay, because it seemed like
> what she really wanted and because I felt a little better knowing there
> were other adults around. Well that was a week ago. She has been with them
> ever since. They took a planned trip to NYC for Thanksgiving and are
> traveling home today. Here's where I'm looking for advice. If she wants to
> continue sleepovers when family is not visiting, do I allow it? I try not
> to control her, just support her decisions, but what about in this
> situation? I'm genuinely worried about her mental and physical safety when
> he is drinking. I can not control his drinking, and do not believe he will
> voluntarily abstain in her presence. Do I stop her from staying there when
> she wants to? Most friends I talk to do not truly understand unschooling or
> my attempts at a non-coercive relationship with my daughter. It is hard to
> listen to their advice with an open mind, because I feel that they think I
> should be more controlling about most of her choices.
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-3. Children who spend any time with an alcoholic parent become very adept
at gauging a person's sobriety and truthfulness. They can also grow to
have issues with trust and truthfulness themselves. If this is the case,
call her on any 'fibs' that she tells, but be supportive and discuss why
she felt she couldn't tell you the truth.-=-
A child who is in school will fib to cover embarrassing family realities.
A child in a situation where a parent is inconsistently available or where punishments are arbitrary will lie.
The situation of an unschooled child whose parents are allowing her to make choices about where she is, when, and why won't have those reasons to lie.
Lying isn't contagious. It can be, in a way, genetic (personality traits), and can be situational. But usually there's some sort of reason or logic, or it's a developmental stage some kids go through where they're experimenting with what reality is, and what stories are.
When parents are honest and open and trusting, kids aren't likely to fib even if they know or hang out with someone who lies like a sonuvabitch.
I love all these ideas:
-=-Talking about 911 and when to call is also not a bad idea.
Attempting to cut off visits could result in your daughter feeling that she
has to protect her father and their relationship from you. I think you
have been wise to respect her feelings about visits. But if their seems to
be a dangerous situation that she is not picking up on, I would definitely
pull her aside and talk to her about why I feel like a visit at that time
isn't a good idea. Stress her well being and safety.-=-
-=-You may also consider speaking to your daughter's father and tell him that
he will die an early death and leave his daughter without a father if he
does not get help. Especially with diabetes. He will probably not listen,
but it is worth a try. But the bulk of your concern should be getting
information so that you can answer your daughter's questions.-=-
WHY?
She's not his wife, she's not his mother. If he dies an early death, that's less sorrow and danger for the daughter.
My mom drank and drank, smoked and smoked, and lived to be 72. You can't declare that someone will die an early death.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
at gauging a person's sobriety and truthfulness. They can also grow to
have issues with trust and truthfulness themselves. If this is the case,
call her on any 'fibs' that she tells, but be supportive and discuss why
she felt she couldn't tell you the truth.-=-
A child who is in school will fib to cover embarrassing family realities.
A child in a situation where a parent is inconsistently available or where punishments are arbitrary will lie.
The situation of an unschooled child whose parents are allowing her to make choices about where she is, when, and why won't have those reasons to lie.
Lying isn't contagious. It can be, in a way, genetic (personality traits), and can be situational. But usually there's some sort of reason or logic, or it's a developmental stage some kids go through where they're experimenting with what reality is, and what stories are.
When parents are honest and open and trusting, kids aren't likely to fib even if they know or hang out with someone who lies like a sonuvabitch.
I love all these ideas:
-=-Talking about 911 and when to call is also not a bad idea.
Attempting to cut off visits could result in your daughter feeling that she
has to protect her father and their relationship from you. I think you
have been wise to respect her feelings about visits. But if their seems to
be a dangerous situation that she is not picking up on, I would definitely
pull her aside and talk to her about why I feel like a visit at that time
isn't a good idea. Stress her well being and safety.-=-
-=-You may also consider speaking to your daughter's father and tell him that
he will die an early death and leave his daughter without a father if he
does not get help. Especially with diabetes. He will probably not listen,
but it is worth a try. But the bulk of your concern should be getting
information so that you can answer your daughter's questions.-=-
WHY?
She's not his wife, she's not his mother. If he dies an early death, that's less sorrow and danger for the daughter.
My mom drank and drank, smoked and smoked, and lived to be 72. You can't declare that someone will die an early death.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dola Dasgupta
I apologize for NOT addressing the legal issues in this case and I am sorry
for my ignorance of American Laws. And also for being insensitive by saying
"send her to school and get a job".
But if I may put it in another way... the readers might like to know and
ask the original writer of the post the following to come to a more
workable solution:
1. How willing is the father in supporting and being part of this
arrangement or is he doing this out of some 'guilt' for not being a 'good
man." Because a man who is alcoholic is "NOT A BAD MAN' it is just that he
cannot help it...he needs help from trained people and his own willingness
to come out of it.
2. Even though this has been posted in an unschooling list ...is it ONLY
about unschooling?
3. Since the child was 4 months old...the father has had drinking problem
and temper and irrational behavior like 'WANTING TO DRIVE WHEN DRUNK...with
a child in the car".
4. While it is completely 'not compassionate' to deal with someone based on
his past actions and yet if most of those actions are continuing in the
present...what is the right approach?
5. How deep is the mother's love and concern for this man as a human being?
or is it just about he being the biological father and the legalities of it
all. And where does the daughter fit in all this?
6. Was the decision to keep the relationship going as it is now, taken
with the daughter being an active part of the choices after she had been
told about the man's history and the mother's issues with this man?
7. If yes, then is the child ready and willing to work with love and
patience towards her father's alcoholism and irrational actions? and how
involved is the mother willing to be in this rehab process?
Dola
for my ignorance of American Laws. And also for being insensitive by saying
"send her to school and get a job".
But if I may put it in another way... the readers might like to know and
ask the original writer of the post the following to come to a more
workable solution:
1. How willing is the father in supporting and being part of this
arrangement or is he doing this out of some 'guilt' for not being a 'good
man." Because a man who is alcoholic is "NOT A BAD MAN' it is just that he
cannot help it...he needs help from trained people and his own willingness
to come out of it.
2. Even though this has been posted in an unschooling list ...is it ONLY
about unschooling?
3. Since the child was 4 months old...the father has had drinking problem
and temper and irrational behavior like 'WANTING TO DRIVE WHEN DRUNK...with
a child in the car".
4. While it is completely 'not compassionate' to deal with someone based on
his past actions and yet if most of those actions are continuing in the
present...what is the right approach?
5. How deep is the mother's love and concern for this man as a human being?
or is it just about he being the biological father and the legalities of it
all. And where does the daughter fit in all this?
6. Was the decision to keep the relationship going as it is now, taken
with the daughter being an active part of the choices after she had been
told about the man's history and the mother's issues with this man?
7. If yes, then is the child ready and willing to work with love and
patience towards her father's alcoholism and irrational actions? and how
involved is the mother willing to be in this rehab process?
Dola
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:54 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-1. If he is legally not her father then why are you allowing your
> daughter
>
> to go through this emotional roller coaster ride is what you really need to
> examine Laura.-=-
>
> Rather than address an individual, in this discussion the ideal is to
> discuss the situation.
>
> The laws might be different in India, but in the U.S. if the father has
> admitted paternity and his name is on the birth certificate, he IS legally
> the child's father.
>
> Making the situation to be about the mother and her former boyfriend
> completely cuts the child out of consideration, and that's not good.
>
> -=-4. Are you sending her for the money that he sends? are you controlling
> him
> through your daughter?-=-
>
> The mother isn't "sending her." She's allowing her to go when she/the
> daughter wants to go.
>
> -=-5. Your daughter is torn between love and fear. And that is always a
> crazy
>
> mix up. It is also a projection of your inner turmoil. Be clear as to what
> is prudence and use your discernment.-=-
>
> I don't see that the realities of the situation at the dad's house have
> ANYthing to do with the mother's "inner turmoil," nor is it a projection of
> that. The father is a real, whole person. The daughter is a real, whole
> person. They exist apart from the mother.
>
> -=-6. As I am reading this it is clear that it is really not about your
> daughter but you and your inability to truly let go of this man.-=-
>
> It is NOT clear. As you read it, you created a scenario about a
> controlling relationship that I didn't see at all.
> Even reading it again and squinting hard, I can't see anything about "not
> letting go." But the projection could be in the thoughts of the author of
> the list of things. Be careful about assuring someone else that something
> is "clearly" a projection.
>
> -=-7. He is alchoholic, not your husband and hence you are the sole
> caretaker
>
> and sole person responsible for your child....Like it or not you are in it
> alone....so face it with lot of love and courage.-=-
>
> The mother is not "in it alone." She might have the greater
> responsibility, but she is not the sole caretaker.
>
> -=-8. Your daughter is vulnerable to abuse since she is seeking love....You
>
> need to fill the gap yourself....seek help from your family if needed...but
> stop to and fro with this man...-=-
>
> She will be more vulnerable to abuse if the mother limits, controls and
> walls her up. That in itself would be a form of abuse, and if the father
> needed to take legal action to have visits with the daughter, the court
> would name the terms. As it stands now, the mother and daughter can name
> the terms entirely--frequency, duration, cancellation. A judge could
> declare full weekends or something, and the daughter wouldn't have the
> right to call the mom for a rescue if she felt unsafe.
>
> -=-9. Send her to school and look for a job.
>
> Much love-=-
>
> Please don't sign "much love" when writing to this list, and to strangers.
> It's inappropriate.
> If you love unschooling and you love helping people, "send her to school
> and look for a job" is not a good way to show it.
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-But if I may put it in another way... the readers might like to know and
ask the original writer of the post the following to come to a more
workable solution:-=-
The original writer doesn't need to answer any questions.
We're sharing ideas from which she might benefit, and other readers might benefit.
-=-2. Even though this has been posted in an unschooling list ...is it ONLY
about unschooling?-=-
Not ONLY about unschooling, about radical unschooling, in a specific way.
Read here and follow every link before posting again.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
It's not "an unschooling list." There are a dozen or more of those. It's the Always Learning list which is unique and specializes in being on topic. :-)
-=-4. While it is completely 'not compassionate' to deal with someone based on
his past actions and yet if most of those actions are continuing in the
present...what is the right approach?-=-
There is no "right approach." There are many better and worse approaches, but what the original poster decides to do, and how it evolves is really none of our business. We were asked for ideas. The assumption was that the ideas given would be by and for unschoolers, from the point of view of unschooling.
-=-5. How deep is the mother's love and concern for this man as a human being?
or is it just about he being the biological father and the legalities of it
all. And where does the daughter fit in all this?-=-
It's all about the daughter and ONLY about the daughter. If you would look at it that way, none of your other questions would make sense.
-=6. Was the decision to keep the relationship going as it is now, taken
with the daughter being an active part of the choices after she had been
told about the man's history and the mother's issues with this man?-=-
The answers to those questions were in the original post. Infancy, and recently more details.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ask the original writer of the post the following to come to a more
workable solution:-=-
The original writer doesn't need to answer any questions.
We're sharing ideas from which she might benefit, and other readers might benefit.
-=-2. Even though this has been posted in an unschooling list ...is it ONLY
about unschooling?-=-
Not ONLY about unschooling, about radical unschooling, in a specific way.
Read here and follow every link before posting again.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
It's not "an unschooling list." There are a dozen or more of those. It's the Always Learning list which is unique and specializes in being on topic. :-)
-=-4. While it is completely 'not compassionate' to deal with someone based on
his past actions and yet if most of those actions are continuing in the
present...what is the right approach?-=-
There is no "right approach." There are many better and worse approaches, but what the original poster decides to do, and how it evolves is really none of our business. We were asked for ideas. The assumption was that the ideas given would be by and for unschoolers, from the point of view of unschooling.
-=-5. How deep is the mother's love and concern for this man as a human being?
or is it just about he being the biological father and the legalities of it
all. And where does the daughter fit in all this?-=-
It's all about the daughter and ONLY about the daughter. If you would look at it that way, none of your other questions would make sense.
-=6. Was the decision to keep the relationship going as it is now, taken
with the daughter being an active part of the choices after she had been
told about the man's history and the mother's issues with this man?-=-
The answers to those questions were in the original post. Infancy, and recently more details.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"nicolaphillips88" <nicolaphillips88@...> wrote:
The trouble, though, is the daughter will very likely still want to see and spend time with the father she loves. It's important to keep coming back to that - this is someone beloved of a little girl. Messed up and unreliable, sure, but still beloved. That's not a cut-and-dried "choose a or b" scenario because if mom chooses "no visits" in a way that Seems arbitrary To The Daughter, that will effect the relationship with the child and her mother, make mom an ogre and dad's company even more valuable. It's not "100% responsible" to set a child up to yearn for the company of an alcoholic.
---Meredith
>> i dont feel any child is safe, staying with an alcholic . father or not. You have to be 100% responsible. he has to choose bottle or his daughter...***************
The trouble, though, is the daughter will very likely still want to see and spend time with the father she loves. It's important to keep coming back to that - this is someone beloved of a little girl. Messed up and unreliable, sure, but still beloved. That's not a cut-and-dried "choose a or b" scenario because if mom chooses "no visits" in a way that Seems arbitrary To The Daughter, that will effect the relationship with the child and her mother, make mom an ogre and dad's company even more valuable. It's not "100% responsible" to set a child up to yearn for the company of an alcoholic.
---Meredith
Messyfish
Hi Sandra,
"Much of conservative, traditional parenting involves controlling what children
see, do, wear, and say. By not giving children choices, a pressure can be
built up so that as soon as the child has choices, he makes wild and crazy ones.
Smaller choices at younger ages lead to better choices later on."
Do you mind if I cut and paste this as my staus on facebook. I am happy to use quotation marks and place your name on if you like?
ps...I made wild and crazy choices the minute I moved out of home when I was wrong. Hence the reason why i like this quote!
"Much of conservative, traditional parenting involves controlling what children
see, do, wear, and say. By not giving children choices, a pressure can be
built up so that as soon as the child has choices, he makes wild and crazy ones.
Smaller choices at younger ages lead to better choices later on."
Do you mind if I cut and paste this as my staus on facebook. I am happy to use quotation marks and place your name on if you like?
ps...I made wild and crazy choices the minute I moved out of home when I was wrong. Hence the reason why i like this quote!
Sandra Dodd
-=-Do you mind if I cut and paste this as my staus on facebook. I am happy to use quotation marks and place your name on if you like?-=-
Please do credit it to me. :-)
That's how quotes work.
-=-I made wild and crazy choices the minute I moved out of home when I was wrong. Hence the reason why i like this quote!
-=-
I've seen it my whole life. Kids who grow up with religious reasons for doing or not doing things will, if they leave that church, do ALL the things they were told not to do, almost systematically, like a checklist. Kids with strict bedtimes will stay up as late as they can, as often as they can, whether they're sleepy at all, when they're teens or first move away. Kids who were never allowed to drink will drink, drink, DRINK. Kids who were punished for bad language will use it indiscriminately with no regard to who hears or what they're saying.
That reactionary entry into "the adult world," where kids do what they were forbidden to do as kids, is all around us.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Please do credit it to me. :-)
That's how quotes work.
-=-I made wild and crazy choices the minute I moved out of home when I was wrong. Hence the reason why i like this quote!
-=-
I've seen it my whole life. Kids who grow up with religious reasons for doing or not doing things will, if they leave that church, do ALL the things they were told not to do, almost systematically, like a checklist. Kids with strict bedtimes will stay up as late as they can, as often as they can, whether they're sleepy at all, when they're teens or first move away. Kids who were never allowed to drink will drink, drink, DRINK. Kids who were punished for bad language will use it indiscriminately with no regard to who hears or what they're saying.
That reactionary entry into "the adult world," where kids do what they were forbidden to do as kids, is all around us.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
Well said. I'm glad someone with some experience piped up about the realities of addiction. I'm still not too sure about allowing a seven year-old decision making power that could result in her being harmed or even killed. Most physical and childhood sexual abuse happen when the abuser is under the influence. I'm sure you have data to back that up with your training. Thanks again for the post.
--- In [email protected], chris ester <chris.homeschool@...> wrote:
>
> I was a social worker for many years and took some course work as well as
> self study about
> addictions in general. I also worked with more addicts than I can count
> and had a bunch of addicts in my family. Most of the addicts that I was
> related to are now dead, mostly due to complications that come with the
> various addictions.
>
> So here are some facts as I have learned them:
>
> 1. Alcohol withdrawal can kill a healthy person. If he has been drinking
> nearly every day or (more probably) every day, and now has diabetes then he
> is probably doing what Alcoholics Anonymous veterans call "drinking to be
> normal". He actually needs alcohol to function now. His physiology has so
> adapted to alcohol that the only safe way for him to really quit would be
> in a hospital under medical supervision.
>
> Alcohol withdrawal is the only withdrawal process that has a high
> probability of being fatal.
>
> So basically, him claiming not to drink before and during the visits with
> his daughter are, more likely than not, a lie.
>
> 2. Which brings me to the next point, addicts LIE. They can't help
> themselves, they can't even be honest with themselves. Recovery jargon
> calls it, "Swimming in the biggest river in the world--da' Nile (denial)".
> Along with denial comes a rejection of personal responsibility for their
> life and problems. An addict is always a victim of circumstances.
>
> One of the most frustrating and most obvious marks of addiction is
> denial-of being an addict, of having any problem, of their substance
> use/abuse being a problem. As part of the addiction process, addicts
> become amazingly good liars because they actually believe what they are
> telling you (and themselves).
>
> 3. Children who spend any time with an alcoholic parent become very adept
> at gauging a person's sobriety and truthfulness. They can also grow to
> have issues with trust and truthfulness themselves. If this is the case,
> call her on any 'fibs' that she tells, but be supportive and discuss why
> she felt she couldn't tell you the truth.
>
> Your daughter can probably describe her father's drinking behavior and the
> effects of the alcohol very well. One of the smartest things that you have
> done is to NOT deny that her father has a problem. Children have an
> uncanny sense of bullsh*t and she needs to be able to trust you.
>
> Your daughter probably loves her father for who he is, helping her
> understand that he is broken and can only be so reliable is your best bet.
> You will have to find a delicate balance between placing your daughter in a
> role of taking care of her father or enabling him and allowing her to
> experience her personal reality of having an alcoholic parent. You can't
> protect her from her reality, you can only help her to cope with her
> situation. Empower her to set limits that are for her benefit. Make it
> clear that she is the first priority, not her dad's feelings.
>
> Discuss your concerns with her if she wants to stay overnight with her dad
> without any one else there as a safety net. The idea of a phone is a good
> one. Talking about 911 and when to call is also not a bad idea.
> Attempting to cut off visits could result in your daughter feeling that she
> has to protect her father and their relationship from you. I think you
> have been wise to respect her feelings about visits. But if their seems to
> be a dangerous situation that she is not picking up on, I would definitely
> pull her aside and talk to her about why I feel like a visit at that time
> isn't a good idea. Stress her well being and safety.
>
> Also, don't call him 'sick' or some other euphemism; drinking problem,
> thinking problem, or problem are all good options. That way, when he is
> actually sick with a physical ailment (like diabetes), and he will be, it
> will be clear that he is physically sick.
>
> I would definitely suggest connecting with ACOA, or alanon for information
> and support.
>
> You may also consider speaking to your daughter's father and tell him that
> he will die an early death and leave his daughter without a father if he
> does not get help. Especially with diabetes. He will probably not listen,
> but it is worth a try. But the bulk of your concern should be getting
> information so that you can answer your daughter's questions.
>
> 4. Addiction is progressive. If an addict does not get help then the
> addiction and the behaviors of the addict will get worse. If an addict
> gets some help, then know that relapse is a part of the recovery process.
> It usually takes several attempts before recovery really sets in.
>
> Also, an addict that abstains and doesn't get therapy and support to
> address the issues that helped the addiction develop (an alcoholic is a
> drunk because they drink) as well as the issues that came from the
> addiction will just be an addict that isn't using. Their relationships and
> how they navigate life will not change much and they will only be
> moderately more healthy.
>
> If your child notices that the addicted parent has been abstaining, try to
> not let them set too much store on the good news. Try to gently explain
> that using one time means going back to the beginning and that it is very
> easy to use and very hard to stay clean. This is where knowledge is
> important. When AA says 'one day at a time', they mean it. Sometimes it
> is one hour, one minute at a time.
>
> The final thing I want to address is that there is some evidence that there
> is a genetic basis for becoming an addict. It is not destiny, but it is
> important that you get information about substance use and abuse and how
> addiction works and how it can be prevented. Then, share honest
> information with your daughter.
>
> My husband and I started when our children were very young, (4 or 5)
> talking about drug use and abuse. Most of the addicts that I have known
> actually used for the first time when they were around 10 years old. We
> didn't and don't condemn substance use (which includes all addictive
> substances including nicotine and caffeine, as well as prescription drugs),
> but we talk about choices and consequences of our choices. We don't want
> our children believing that substance use is all or nothing. Some drugs
> can be very good for us if we need them, but can be very bad if we overuse
> them, vitamins and tylenol are two examples that I use often. Some drugs
> are almost never good for you to use, nicotine and alcohol are two that I
> have talked about as an example of these.
>
> I hope that this isn't too much information and I hope that it helps.
> Chris
>
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Laura Oliver
> <learn.love.laugh@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > My 7 yo daughter's father and I are not together, and we have not been
> > since she was an infant. We were never married, and my daughter and I moved
> > out when she was 4 months old due to his alcoholism and temper. Since then
> > she has seen him regularly (once a week) and he has helped to support her
> > financially. We have worked out a verbal agreement of visitation and child
> > support and have not had to involve the state. He has also agreed not to
> > drink in her presence. He has a history of bad decisions and accidents when
> > drinking (2 DUI's, damaged friends property, injury to himself), and I
> > demanded that if she were to spend the night there, he abstain from alcohol
> > before and during her visit. He was diagnosed with Diabetes last year and
> > has been quite sick on and off since then. Shortly after he was diagnosed,
> > he was very drunk when I picked her up one afternoon. I was furious. When I
> > finally got to talk to him alone 2 days later, I told him I didn't want him
> > to have unsupervised visits with her anymore. because I was concerned about
> > her safety. I also do not want her to be in a situation where she has to
> > call 911 because her father has passed out. He decided to quit drinking, at
> > least that is what he told me. After a while, I let her sleepover again. I
> > had not discussed her father's alcoholism with my daughter, because I
> > didn't want to put my judgmental ideas about him in her mind. A few weeks
> > ago she told me she didn't want to sleepover at his house anymore because
> > he drinks too much and she doesn't feel respected at his house. She told me
> > about a couple of incidents where he got very angry and wanted her to
> > something she was uncomfortable with (ride in a car with him after he got
> > in a fight with his girlfriend, and let the girlfriend tickle her). At that
> > point I told her quite a bit about her dad and my history together, why I
> > left, our agreements, etc. She asked me to tell him she decided not to stay
> > there anymore. I told him, and he said he never meant to make her feel that
> > way and had some things to work on. Two weeks went by, and he called and
> > asked to take her out to lunch. They spent the afternoon together, with
> > family that was visiting for the Thanksgiving week. When I went to pick her
> > up, she said she wanted to sleepover at dad's (one of her 10 yo family
> > members was staying for the week). I let her stay, because it seemed like
> > what she really wanted and because I felt a little better knowing there
> > were other adults around. Well that was a week ago. She has been with them
> > ever since. They took a planned trip to NYC for Thanksgiving and are
> > traveling home today. Here's where I'm looking for advice. If she wants to
> > continue sleepovers when family is not visiting, do I allow it? I try not
> > to control her, just support her decisions, but what about in this
> > situation? I'm genuinely worried about her mental and physical safety when
> > he is drinking. I can not control his drinking, and do not believe he will
> > voluntarily abstain in her presence. Do I stop her from staying there when
> > she wants to? Most friends I talk to do not truly understand unschooling or
> > my attempts at a non-coercive relationship with my daughter. It is hard to
> > listen to their advice with an open mind, because I feel that they think I
> > should be more controlling about most of her choices.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Deb
Sandra, with all due respect you're missing the point regarding alcoholic behavior and the behavior of children of addicts. Whether unschooled or not, the addiction makes a huge difference in what the child will or won't say or lie about. It becomes about the child who is inevitably codependant to the addict in some degree, trying to preserve the relationship at all costs because a child wants her father. I usually agree with you on this board but I would hope you'd be very cautious about giving advice in this situation without the aide of a professional showing you your way around an addictive family and what that entails. Your unschooling advice is impeccable but I believe you have overstepped your bounds on this one. Perhaps some ACOA meetings or reading would be helpful for you having grown up with an addicted mother. Unschooling is, unfortunately, not the cure for everything. I say all of this with the respect due your knowledge, training, and experience. I hope you will let this post through. Thank you.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-3. Children who spend any time with an alcoholic parent become very adept
> at gauging a person's sobriety and truthfulness. They can also grow to
> have issues with trust and truthfulness themselves. If this is the case,
> call her on any 'fibs' that she tells, but be supportive and discuss why
> she felt she couldn't tell you the truth.-=-
>
>
> A child who is in school will fib to cover embarrassing family realities.
> A child in a situation where a parent is inconsistently available or where punishments are arbitrary will lie.
>
> The situation of an unschooled child whose parents are allowing her to make choices about where she is, when, and why won't have those reasons to lie.
>
> Lying isn't contagious. It can be, in a way, genetic (personality traits), and can be situational. But usually there's some sort of reason or logic, or it's a developmental stage some kids go through where they're experimenting with what reality is, and what stories are.
>
> When parents are honest and open and trusting, kids aren't likely to fib even if they know or hang out with someone who lies like a sonuvabitch.
>
> I love all these ideas:
>
> -=-Talking about 911 and when to call is also not a bad idea.
> Attempting to cut off visits could result in your daughter feeling that she
> has to protect her father and their relationship from you. I think you
> have been wise to respect her feelings about visits. But if their seems to
> be a dangerous situation that she is not picking up on, I would definitely
> pull her aside and talk to her about why I feel like a visit at that time
> isn't a good idea. Stress her well being and safety.-=-
>
> -=-You may also consider speaking to your daughter's father and tell him that
> he will die an early death and leave his daughter without a father if he
> does not get help. Especially with diabetes. He will probably not listen,
> but it is worth a try. But the bulk of your concern should be getting
> information so that you can answer your daughter's questions.-=-
>
> WHY?
> She's not his wife, she's not his mother. If he dies an early death, that's less sorrow and danger for the daughter.
>
> My mom drank and drank, smoked and smoked, and lived to be 72. You can't declare that someone will die an early death.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Lydia
*** I can not control his drinking, and do not believe he will voluntarily abstain in her presence. Do I stop her from staying there when she wants to? ***
There are several things to consider. What other dangers might she be in when her father is drinking that she might not even be aware of at 10 years old? For example, do they go places where there are other alcoholics? Do other people come to his home to drink?
Also, time spent with her father either drunk or sober, is still time spent with a dysfunctional parent. Spending time with an adult, especially a man, who is not an alcoholic, would give her knowledge of a healthy relationship. That knowledge would enable her to make better decisions about when it is safe to be with her father and when it is not. Perhaps find an adult with an interest in something she enjoys to spend some time with her.
There are several things to consider. What other dangers might she be in when her father is drinking that she might not even be aware of at 10 years old? For example, do they go places where there are other alcoholics? Do other people come to his home to drink?
Also, time spent with her father either drunk or sober, is still time spent with a dysfunctional parent. Spending time with an adult, especially a man, who is not an alcoholic, would give her knowledge of a healthy relationship. That knowledge would enable her to make better decisions about when it is safe to be with her father and when it is not. Perhaps find an adult with an interest in something she enjoys to spend some time with her.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sandra, with all due respect you're missing the point regarding alcoholic behavior and the behavior of children of addicts. Whether unschooled or not, the addiction makes a huge difference in what the child will or won't say or lie about.-=-
Perhaps it makes a difference, but unschooling will make a difference beyond that.
-=-It becomes about the child who is inevitably codependant to the addict in some degree, trying to preserve the relationship at all costs because a child wants her father.-=-
You're not describing what's being discussed. A child is NOT inevitably codependent. People have recommended al-Anon groups for the child. The mother is being open and honest.
The lying would start if the mom tried to prevent the girl seeing her dad, no doubt.
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
-=-I usually agree with you on this board but I would hope you'd be very cautious about giving advice in this situation without the aide of a professional showing you your way around an addictive family and what that entails.-=-
I don't care whether you usually agree with me or not. I'm not cautious about things I'm confident about, and I don't need a professional to show me the way around an addictive family.
-=-Your unschooling advice is impeccable but I believe you have overstepped your bounds on this one. Perhaps some ACOA meetings or reading would be helpful for you having grown up with an addicted mother.-=-
I attended adult children of acoholics meetings for a year before I had Kirby, and Marty could walk when I quit going, so it was over four years of weekly meetings, readings, research, and helping others.
-=-Unschooling is, unfortunately, not the cure for everything. -=-
No one said it was.
-=-Your unschooling advice is impeccable but I believe you have overstepped your bounds on this one.-=-
"My bounds"? Who decides what my bounds are?
My mother was an alcoholic, and my parents raised two cousins whose mother was much worse that my mom (and their dad was too; my dad wasn't an alcoholic). My sister has been through alcoholism and cocaine, and her husband too, and one of their kids is a heroin addict. My mother had five siblings, three of whom were alcholics, two of whom were not. I knew all those families, their staying together (the two who weren't alcoholics) and there divorces (three of the other four). I've had two boyfriends with alcoholic parents, and one ex husband who was an alcoholic.
But the question wasn't really about alcoholism, not the aspect we should be discussing on this list, my ten-year-old unschooling list. The part of the situation we can help the mom with is seeing the longterm results of various choices she might make, and how to make the present as safe and as happy as possible.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Perhaps it makes a difference, but unschooling will make a difference beyond that.
-=-It becomes about the child who is inevitably codependant to the addict in some degree, trying to preserve the relationship at all costs because a child wants her father.-=-
You're not describing what's being discussed. A child is NOT inevitably codependent. People have recommended al-Anon groups for the child. The mother is being open and honest.
The lying would start if the mom tried to prevent the girl seeing her dad, no doubt.
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
-=-I usually agree with you on this board but I would hope you'd be very cautious about giving advice in this situation without the aide of a professional showing you your way around an addictive family and what that entails.-=-
I don't care whether you usually agree with me or not. I'm not cautious about things I'm confident about, and I don't need a professional to show me the way around an addictive family.
-=-Your unschooling advice is impeccable but I believe you have overstepped your bounds on this one. Perhaps some ACOA meetings or reading would be helpful for you having grown up with an addicted mother.-=-
I attended adult children of acoholics meetings for a year before I had Kirby, and Marty could walk when I quit going, so it was over four years of weekly meetings, readings, research, and helping others.
-=-Unschooling is, unfortunately, not the cure for everything. -=-
No one said it was.
-=-Your unschooling advice is impeccable but I believe you have overstepped your bounds on this one.-=-
"My bounds"? Who decides what my bounds are?
My mother was an alcoholic, and my parents raised two cousins whose mother was much worse that my mom (and their dad was too; my dad wasn't an alcoholic). My sister has been through alcoholism and cocaine, and her husband too, and one of their kids is a heroin addict. My mother had five siblings, three of whom were alcholics, two of whom were not. I knew all those families, their staying together (the two who weren't alcoholics) and there divorces (three of the other four). I've had two boyfriends with alcoholic parents, and one ex husband who was an alcoholic.
But the question wasn't really about alcoholism, not the aspect we should be discussing on this list, my ten-year-old unschooling list. The part of the situation we can help the mom with is seeing the longterm results of various choices she might make, and how to make the present as safe and as happy as possible.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Also, time spent with her father either drunk or sober, is still time spent with a dysfunctional parent. Spending time with an adult, especially a man, who is not an alcoholic, would give her knowledge of a healthy relationship. That knowledge would enable her to make better decisions about when it is safe to be with her father and when it is not. Perhaps find an adult with an interest in something she enjoys to spend some time with her. -=-
I think all children should have various adults in their lives--friends of their parents, parents of friends...
But not to replace their parents.
Time spent with a dysfunctional parent is time spent with a parent, and nothing replaces that. MANY things can augment that, and even the most hale and whole parents in the world shouldn't be the only adults in their children's lives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think all children should have various adults in their lives--friends of their parents, parents of friends...
But not to replace their parents.
Time spent with a dysfunctional parent is time spent with a parent, and nothing replaces that. MANY things can augment that, and even the most hale and whole parents in the world shouldn't be the only adults in their children's lives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Well said. I'm glad someone with some experience piped up about the realities of addiction. I'm still not too sure about allowing a seven year-old decision making power that could result in her being harmed or even killed. Most physical and childhood sexual abuse happen when the abuser is under the influence. I'm sure you have data to back that up with your training. Thanks again for the post.-=-
I'm not going to take a poll, but there are MANY people here who are or were social workers, lawyers,counselors, teachers, and medical personnel. To insult some of those who have offered good advice freely doesn't advance the discussion.
If training were everything, then teachers would know WAY more about learning and child development than parents could, and homeschooling should be entirely illegal.
There are not professionals who can give good unschooling advice. There's this list, and a few other places, but not many. Not NEARLY as many places as it would appear if you googled it.
No discussion on this list keeps anyone from looking further afield for ideas and information. THIS discussion is about the relationship between an unschooled child and her parents.
-=-I'm still not too sure about allowing a seven year-old decision making power that could result in her being harmed or even killed.-=-
I think it's more important for a child to get to run and climb, ride a bike and maybe even roller blades or a skateboard than it is to keep him in a padded room with a helmet on until he's grown. There are many things that can cause death. Grocery carts. Spiders. Bathtubs. A sober parent can make a decision that accidentally results in death.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well said. I'm glad someone with some experience piped up about the realities of addiction. I'm still not too sure about allowing a seven year-old decision making power that could result in her being harmed or even killed. Most physical and childhood sexual abuse happen when the abuser is under the influence. I'm sure you have data to back that up with your training. Thanks again for the post.-=-
I'm not going to take a poll, but there are MANY people here who are or were social workers, lawyers,counselors, teachers, and medical personnel. To insult some of those who have offered good advice freely doesn't advance the discussion.
If training were everything, then teachers would know WAY more about learning and child development than parents could, and homeschooling should be entirely illegal.
There are not professionals who can give good unschooling advice. There's this list, and a few other places, but not many. Not NEARLY as many places as it would appear if you googled it.
No discussion on this list keeps anyone from looking further afield for ideas and information. THIS discussion is about the relationship between an unschooled child and her parents.
-=-I'm still not too sure about allowing a seven year-old decision making power that could result in her being harmed or even killed.-=-
I think it's more important for a child to get to run and climb, ride a bike and maybe even roller blades or a skateboard than it is to keep him in a padded room with a helmet on until he's grown. There are many things that can cause death. Grocery carts. Spiders. Bathtubs. A sober parent can make a decision that accidentally results in death.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
I think you're projecting the reactions of a child who depends on an
addicted parent for their basic needs onto any child in any
relationship with an alcoholic parent.
losing something (a parent, their family, regard of others, TV
privileges) by telling the truth, they'll likely lie.
If *anyone*, of any age, fears losing something important to them if
they tell the truth, it makes it far more likely they'll lie.
But what will she lose if she tells her mother the truth?
phone, her physical dependence on him isn't even that high compared to
a child who is living with an alcoholic.
But she isn't likely to lose him if she tells the truth. Her mom wrote
trying to find safe ways the girl can spend time with her father. If
something happens, it's likely she won't be staying with him
unsupervised but she won't lose him. (And I suspect she won't want to
be unsupervised with him.) That's a big, huge difference.
This is why it's important for the child to be able to trust a parent
is her partner and not the enforcer of her safety. If a child sees the
parent as someone who will help them get what they want in safe,
respectful, doable ways, they'll go to the parent when they have a
problem. If the child suspects asking a parent for help will mean the
parent erects a barrier between the child and what the child wants (in
essence saying "I won't help you,") the child is far more likely to
lie, sneak, or find someone who will help.
Joyce
addicted parent for their basic needs onto any child in any
relationship with an alcoholic parent.
> Whether unschooled or not, the addiction makes a huge difference inThis is true even without addiction in the mix. If a child fears
> what the child will or won't say or lie about.
losing something (a parent, their family, regard of others, TV
privileges) by telling the truth, they'll likely lie.
If *anyone*, of any age, fears losing something important to them if
they tell the truth, it makes it far more likely they'll lie.
But what will she lose if she tells her mother the truth?
> It becomes about the child who is inevitably codependant to theShe's dependent on her mother. She visits her father. If she has a
> addict in some degree
phone, her physical dependence on him isn't even that high compared to
a child who is living with an alcoholic.
> trying to preserve the relationship at all costs because a childTrue in a child living with and dependent on an addict.
> wants her father.
But she isn't likely to lose him if she tells the truth. Her mom wrote
trying to find safe ways the girl can spend time with her father. If
something happens, it's likely she won't be staying with him
unsupervised but she won't lose him. (And I suspect she won't want to
be unsupervised with him.) That's a big, huge difference.
This is why it's important for the child to be able to trust a parent
is her partner and not the enforcer of her safety. If a child sees the
parent as someone who will help them get what they want in safe,
respectful, doable ways, they'll go to the parent when they have a
problem. If the child suspects asking a parent for help will mean the
parent erects a barrier between the child and what the child wants (in
essence saying "I won't help you,") the child is far more likely to
lie, sneak, or find someone who will help.
Joyce
chris ester
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Deb <vwb777@...> wrote:
withhold a child from her parent unless the parent has demonstrated really,
really, egregious behavior around or towards the child in question. I am
talking about SEVERE neglect or abuse (no food for days, no home to live
in, no utilities in the home, filthy conditions that do not get cleaned up,
even after multiple services to help fix it, no medical care, no education,
etc) that directly affects the child in a harmful way; NOT emotionally, but
physically in a very measurable way. In other words, some sort of harm has
to have been done. A person has a constitutional right to a relationship
with their parent or child. A person also has a constitutional right to
raise (or mess up, depending on who is looking at the situation) their own
child as they see fit.
There is also the fact that this child's reality is that her father is an
alcoholic. No one can change that, and she can only be protected from that
reality in a limited way. The BEST tactic is what I call measured
honesty. The healthy parent (or parental figure) provides the child with
as much information about the situation as the child is able and ready to
cope with. Helping the child to express her feelings about the various
situations that will arise in a place of safety and acceptance and
providing guidance on how to cope with those feelings in positive ways.
Things like,"It is okay to be angry, but it isn't okay to throw things."
One of the common metaphors about addiction is that it is like there is an
elephant in the living room, but everybody is ignoring it. If you
acknowledge that the elephant is there, you can at least move the beasty
into the back yard where it is easier to cope...
In this situation, the problematic parent is at least put together enough
to respect his child's wishes. Children who grow up in these situations
(she has 7 years experience dealing with an alcoholic) usually develop an
uncanny ability to read situations. I am not saying that a 7 year old
should be left to fend for herself in all situations, but it is valuable to
listen to her and respect her assessment of the issues. She has already
demonstrated a very mature sense of self worth and self preservation by
deciding not to visit with her dad overnight. Given this fact, I think
that she has proven that she is capable of having a lot of input into her
visitation.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **The unfortunate reality is that legally speaking, no court is going to
>
>
>
> >>>>>>>Well said. I'm glad someone with some experience piped up about the
> realities of addiction. I'm still not too sure about allowing a seven
> year-old decision making power that could result in her being harmed or
> even killed. Most physical and childhood sexual abuse happen when the
> abuser is under the influence. I'm sure you have data to back that up with
> your training. Thanks again for the post.<<<<<<<<
>
withhold a child from her parent unless the parent has demonstrated really,
really, egregious behavior around or towards the child in question. I am
talking about SEVERE neglect or abuse (no food for days, no home to live
in, no utilities in the home, filthy conditions that do not get cleaned up,
even after multiple services to help fix it, no medical care, no education,
etc) that directly affects the child in a harmful way; NOT emotionally, but
physically in a very measurable way. In other words, some sort of harm has
to have been done. A person has a constitutional right to a relationship
with their parent or child. A person also has a constitutional right to
raise (or mess up, depending on who is looking at the situation) their own
child as they see fit.
There is also the fact that this child's reality is that her father is an
alcoholic. No one can change that, and she can only be protected from that
reality in a limited way. The BEST tactic is what I call measured
honesty. The healthy parent (or parental figure) provides the child with
as much information about the situation as the child is able and ready to
cope with. Helping the child to express her feelings about the various
situations that will arise in a place of safety and acceptance and
providing guidance on how to cope with those feelings in positive ways.
Things like,"It is okay to be angry, but it isn't okay to throw things."
One of the common metaphors about addiction is that it is like there is an
elephant in the living room, but everybody is ignoring it. If you
acknowledge that the elephant is there, you can at least move the beasty
into the back yard where it is easier to cope...
In this situation, the problematic parent is at least put together enough
to respect his child's wishes. Children who grow up in these situations
(she has 7 years experience dealing with an alcoholic) usually develop an
uncanny ability to read situations. I am not saying that a 7 year old
should be left to fend for herself in all situations, but it is valuable to
listen to her and respect her assessment of the issues. She has already
demonstrated a very mature sense of self worth and self preservation by
deciding not to visit with her dad overnight. Given this fact, I think
that she has proven that she is capable of having a lot of input into her
visitation.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 28, 2011, at 11:05 PM, chris ester wrote:
families.
visitation goes. There are no uniform laws across the US that "legally
speaking" define what unfit means.
But when thinking about divorce it's best to assume that a judge
won't cut off visitation just because one parent believes the other
isn't fit.
Joyce
> A person has a constitutional right to a relationshipNot true. There's nothing in the constitution or amendments about
> with their parent or child. A person also has a constitutional right
> to
> raise (or mess up, depending on who is looking at the situation)
> their own
> child as they see fit.
families.
> The unfortunate reality is that legally speaking, no court is going toIt depends what state, what district, even what judge how custody and
> withhold a child from her parent unless the parent has demonstrated
> really,
> really, egregious behavior around or towards the child in question.
visitation goes. There are no uniform laws across the US that "legally
speaking" define what unfit means.
But when thinking about divorce it's best to assume that a judge
won't cut off visitation just because one parent believes the other
isn't fit.
Joyce
Deb
Those are all very good points and give me another viewpoint to consider. I appreciate your response to my post. Hopefully I didn't come across angrily, but I am very passionate about the subject-it's very close to the vest for me. Thanks again.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> I think you're projecting the reactions of a child who depends on an
> addicted parent for their basic needs onto any child in any
> relationship with an alcoholic parent.
>
> > Whether unschooled or not, the addiction makes a huge difference in
> > what the child will or won't say or lie about.
>
> This is true even without addiction in the mix. If a child fears
> losing something (a parent, their family, regard of others, TV
> privileges) by telling the truth, they'll likely lie.
>
> If *anyone*, of any age, fears losing something important to them if
> they tell the truth, it makes it far more likely they'll lie.
>
> But what will she lose if she tells her mother the truth?
>
> > It becomes about the child who is inevitably codependant to the
> > addict in some degree
>
> She's dependent on her mother. She visits her father. If she has a
> phone, her physical dependence on him isn't even that high compared to
> a child who is living with an alcoholic.
>
> > trying to preserve the relationship at all costs because a child
> > wants her father.
>
>
> True in a child living with and dependent on an addict.
>
> But she isn't likely to lose him if she tells the truth. Her mom wrote
> trying to find safe ways the girl can spend time with her father. If
> something happens, it's likely she won't be staying with him
> unsupervised but she won't lose him. (And I suspect she won't want to
> be unsupervised with him.) That's a big, huge difference.
>
> This is why it's important for the child to be able to trust a parent
> is her partner and not the enforcer of her safety. If a child sees the
> parent as someone who will help them get what they want in safe,
> respectful, doable ways, they'll go to the parent when they have a
> problem. If the child suspects asking a parent for help will mean the
> parent erects a barrier between the child and what the child wants (in
> essence saying "I won't help you,") the child is far more likely to
> lie, sneak, or find someone who will help.
>
> Joyce
>
Deb
I didn't mean to put you on the defensive, just giving some input from my own experience and training.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Sandra, with all due respect you're missing the point regarding alcoholic behavior and the behavior of children of addicts. Whether unschooled or not, the addiction makes a huge difference in what the child will or won't say or lie about.-=-
>
> Perhaps it makes a difference, but unschooling will make a difference beyond that.
>
> -=-It becomes about the child who is inevitably codependant to the addict in some degree, trying to preserve the relationship at all costs because a child wants her father.-=-
>
> You're not describing what's being discussed. A child is NOT inevitably codependent. People have recommended al-Anon groups for the child. The mother is being open and honest.
>
> The lying would start if the mom tried to prevent the girl seeing her dad, no doubt.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
>
> -=-I usually agree with you on this board but I would hope you'd be very cautious about giving advice in this situation without the aide of a professional showing you your way around an addictive family and what that entails.-=-
>
> I don't care whether you usually agree with me or not. I'm not cautious about things I'm confident about, and I don't need a professional to show me the way around an addictive family.
>
> -=-Your unschooling advice is impeccable but I believe you have overstepped your bounds on this one. Perhaps some ACOA meetings or reading would be helpful for you having grown up with an addicted mother.-=-
>
> I attended adult children of acoholics meetings for a year before I had Kirby, and Marty could walk when I quit going, so it was over four years of weekly meetings, readings, research, and helping others.
>
> -=-Unschooling is, unfortunately, not the cure for everything. -=-
>
> No one said it was.
>
> -=-Your unschooling advice is impeccable but I believe you have overstepped your bounds on this one.-=-
>
> "My bounds"? Who decides what my bounds are?
>
> My mother was an alcoholic, and my parents raised two cousins whose mother was much worse that my mom (and their dad was too; my dad wasn't an alcoholic). My sister has been through alcoholism and cocaine, and her husband too, and one of their kids is a heroin addict. My mother had five siblings, three of whom were alcholics, two of whom were not. I knew all those families, their staying together (the two who weren't alcoholics) and there divorces (three of the other four). I've had two boyfriends with alcoholic parents, and one ex husband who was an alcoholic.
>
> But the question wasn't really about alcoholism, not the aspect we should be discussing on this list, my ten-year-old unschooling list. The part of the situation we can help the mom with is seeing the longterm results of various choices she might make, and how to make the present as safe and as happy as possible.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Those are all very good points and give me another viewpoint to consider. I appreciate your response to my post. Hopefully I didn't come across angrily, but I am very passionate about the subject-it's very close to the vest for me. -=-
The subject is unschooling, really.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The subject is unschooling, really.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]