I would LOVE to have pictures of "bad" kids :-)
Joyce Fetteroll
"Bad" by conventional parenting definition, that is! :-)
I keep stumbling across pictures of mothers gazing down in awe at
their sleeping infants with the caption, "I will love you no matter
what."
Yeah. Right. There's a real test: loving a sleeping infant. (Can you
feel the sarcasm?)
And it struck me what really illustrates love, what gets to the core
of unschooling is when we're up to the challenge of still being there
for kids when they push us out of our comfort zone.
I've created a blog called:
I Will Always Be There For You
OR The Radical Unschooling Philosophy Illustrated <-- That's the
subtitle. Not an indication I can't make up my mind ;-)
http://unschoolingphilosophyillustrated.blogspot.com/
I've added the first post as an example :-)
But I need your photos!
Examples like (but not limited to):
* Kids who've done something that conventional parents would get mad
about.
--> Like emptying a cupboard into the hall. Like pulling up "weeds"
that really weren't weeds. Like extending the driveway chalk painting
onto the car and the house and the cat ...
* Kids you've helped do something that conventional parents wouldn't
allow.
--> Like messy painting. Like going up the slide instead of down. Like
marker tattoos on any bare skin showing (one of my daughter's
favorites!) :-)
* Doing things with kids that most parents don't have time for.
--> Like playing video games together. Like going to anime conventions
together. ;-)
ALSO include:
* Caption you want under the picture.
* Any credit for the picture.
* A brief bit about what unschooling has meant to your relationship or
anything else that might help people understand why what's happening
in the photo is valuable to understand.
* I may add a bit of unschooling philosophy to it. (And I may crop the
photos a bit to make them fit the blog format unless you let me know
it's not okay.)
I'd love love to have photos to help illustrate this :-) You can find
some, send them to:
jfetteroll@...
At some point I'll start a Facebook group for it. The kind that sends
you alerts and emails that there's been a new post. (I am a noob at FB
so if anyone can offer tips, I'd sure appreciate it!
I'm about to start a job (one that like pays you cash for doing
stuff!) working in the bakery at the grocery store, so like I really
need a new project! ;-) But this one won't let me go and keeps nagging
me to start it. I can't promise the pictures will go up fast! But I
will do my best to get them up there since I think it could be quite
lovely and useful for explaining unschooling. :-)
Joyce
I keep stumbling across pictures of mothers gazing down in awe at
their sleeping infants with the caption, "I will love you no matter
what."
Yeah. Right. There's a real test: loving a sleeping infant. (Can you
feel the sarcasm?)
And it struck me what really illustrates love, what gets to the core
of unschooling is when we're up to the challenge of still being there
for kids when they push us out of our comfort zone.
I've created a blog called:
I Will Always Be There For You
OR The Radical Unschooling Philosophy Illustrated <-- That's the
subtitle. Not an indication I can't make up my mind ;-)
http://unschoolingphilosophyillustrated.blogspot.com/
I've added the first post as an example :-)
But I need your photos!
Examples like (but not limited to):
* Kids who've done something that conventional parents would get mad
about.
--> Like emptying a cupboard into the hall. Like pulling up "weeds"
that really weren't weeds. Like extending the driveway chalk painting
onto the car and the house and the cat ...
* Kids you've helped do something that conventional parents wouldn't
allow.
--> Like messy painting. Like going up the slide instead of down. Like
marker tattoos on any bare skin showing (one of my daughter's
favorites!) :-)
* Doing things with kids that most parents don't have time for.
--> Like playing video games together. Like going to anime conventions
together. ;-)
ALSO include:
* Caption you want under the picture.
* Any credit for the picture.
* A brief bit about what unschooling has meant to your relationship or
anything else that might help people understand why what's happening
in the photo is valuable to understand.
* I may add a bit of unschooling philosophy to it. (And I may crop the
photos a bit to make them fit the blog format unless you let me know
it's not okay.)
I'd love love to have photos to help illustrate this :-) You can find
some, send them to:
jfetteroll@...
At some point I'll start a Facebook group for it. The kind that sends
you alerts and emails that there's been a new post. (I am a noob at FB
so if anyone can offer tips, I'd sure appreciate it!
I'm about to start a job (one that like pays you cash for doing
stuff!) working in the bakery at the grocery store, so like I really
need a new project! ;-) But this one won't let me go and keeps nagging
me to start it. I can't promise the pictures will go up fast! But I
will do my best to get them up there since I think it could be quite
lovely and useful for explaining unschooling. :-)
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
I think there's an advantage, though, to a mother gazing lovingly at a sleeping child. My mom rarely saw me asleep after I was older, because I was sent to bed while I was awake, and when I got up she was sometimes sorry I had woken up early on my own, or had just woken me up and I was cranky. The result was that I saw her angry and pissed off too much, and she saw me sorrowful too much (or wrecked my morning joy, when I had some).
The idea of my mother gazing at me lovingly and thinking she would love me forever seems like a beautiful fantasy.
So please don't think too sarcastically of the idea of a mother renewing her resolve to be a loving parent because she adores a sleeping child. Not everyone has that in their life, as a child *or* as a parent.
I had that peaceful, expansive feeling as a parent, many times, and it made me a better parent, to hold a child and smell him, or to pause long enough to watch a child breathing softly, in a safe place I had helped create, after they had gone to sleep gently and peacefully and happily. Remembering in that moment to appreciate all that helped me be happy when the child arose, whether cherubically after a lovely sunrise or pukingly at 2:00 a.m.
I think loving a child who is not at her best comes from years of loving her when she's asleep, or being ideal. Knowing ideal is possible and is common makes the crazy moments smaller.
My most extreme case is something Holly might not want reposted on a blog (the photo of her; I'm considering sending you the second of the two photos here)
http://sandradodd.com/pudding
We went straight where she was when the police called, and wrapped her up in a sheet and I drove her car back while she rode with Keith in our already-warm van, and she cried.
I slept with her in a bed that was neither hers nor mine, far from others, and she talked and cried, and I told her not to worry, and we held hands, and she fell asleep with me wrapped around her, and I loved her completely.
I'll ask her if that's something she would be willing to have on your blog, Joyce.
Sandra
The idea of my mother gazing at me lovingly and thinking she would love me forever seems like a beautiful fantasy.
So please don't think too sarcastically of the idea of a mother renewing her resolve to be a loving parent because she adores a sleeping child. Not everyone has that in their life, as a child *or* as a parent.
I had that peaceful, expansive feeling as a parent, many times, and it made me a better parent, to hold a child and smell him, or to pause long enough to watch a child breathing softly, in a safe place I had helped create, after they had gone to sleep gently and peacefully and happily. Remembering in that moment to appreciate all that helped me be happy when the child arose, whether cherubically after a lovely sunrise or pukingly at 2:00 a.m.
I think loving a child who is not at her best comes from years of loving her when she's asleep, or being ideal. Knowing ideal is possible and is common makes the crazy moments smaller.
My most extreme case is something Holly might not want reposted on a blog (the photo of her; I'm considering sending you the second of the two photos here)
http://sandradodd.com/pudding
We went straight where she was when the police called, and wrapped her up in a sheet and I drove her car back while she rode with Keith in our already-warm van, and she cried.
I slept with her in a bed that was neither hers nor mine, far from others, and she talked and cried, and I told her not to worry, and we held hands, and she fell asleep with me wrapped around her, and I loved her completely.
I'll ask her if that's something she would be willing to have on your blog, Joyce.
Sandra
Deb Lewis
***I had that peaceful, expansive feeling as a parent, many times, and it made me a better parent, to hold a child and smell him, or to pause long enough to watch a child breathing softly, in a safe place I had helped create, after they had gone to sleep gently and peacefully and happily.***
When Dylan was little and sleeping in my arms or in bed beside me I thought about how trusting he was and how much I always wanted to be worthy of his trust. He felt safe enough to fall asleep in my arms and I wanted to make sure that I would always be the person he could feel safe with, that he could always count on me for security and comfort. That made all the rest of the day or night easier.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When Dylan was little and sleeping in my arms or in bed beside me I thought about how trusting he was and how much I always wanted to be worthy of his trust. He felt safe enough to fall asleep in my arms and I wanted to make sure that I would always be the person he could feel safe with, that he could always count on me for security and comfort. That made all the rest of the day or night easier.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 15, 2011, at 3:50 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
ideal visions to go away. I'm not the least bit sarcastic towards the
moms. It's sweet wanting that feeling to last forever.
But that vision is the only (common and familiar) positive,
relationship building tool they have to navigate the next 18 years
with a child. And those parents who can't figure out how to make that
tool move them towards the ideal when they face the challenges of
awake active kids will feel like failures. It's unfortunate the moms
live in a society that turns them towards relationship damaging tools.
I guess it's the artists, not the subjects, I'm being too rough on,
expecting more of. But artists illuminate reality. Like Anita
Renfroe's Momisms (http://youtu.be/YYukEAmoMCQ) And artists also
create ideal visions. (Like moms gazing lovingly down on their
sleeping infants.) Artists don't help people navigate reality to get
to ideal. It's awesome that you and Deb (and others) could use that
vision of ideal as a tool to help whenever life was less than ideal. I
think that's the exception, though. Most parents need better tools and
understanding of how bad the tools are that conventional society
approves of.
Artists can't depict what they don't know exists. It's visionaries who
illuminate paths to the ideal. Even better are visionaries who are
navigating the paths themselves, figuring out how to help others do
the same.
But since I'm an artist who does know about better tools, I can help
illuminate that reality. (With other people's help.) And I shouldn't
be finding fault with artists who just can't know another way of
living with kids.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So please don't think too sarcastically of the idea of a motherYou're right. Sarcasm isn't a very positive tool! I don't want those
> renewing her resolve to be a loving parent because she adores a
> sleeping child.
ideal visions to go away. I'm not the least bit sarcastic towards the
moms. It's sweet wanting that feeling to last forever.
But that vision is the only (common and familiar) positive,
relationship building tool they have to navigate the next 18 years
with a child. And those parents who can't figure out how to make that
tool move them towards the ideal when they face the challenges of
awake active kids will feel like failures. It's unfortunate the moms
live in a society that turns them towards relationship damaging tools.
I guess it's the artists, not the subjects, I'm being too rough on,
expecting more of. But artists illuminate reality. Like Anita
Renfroe's Momisms (http://youtu.be/YYukEAmoMCQ) And artists also
create ideal visions. (Like moms gazing lovingly down on their
sleeping infants.) Artists don't help people navigate reality to get
to ideal. It's awesome that you and Deb (and others) could use that
vision of ideal as a tool to help whenever life was less than ideal. I
think that's the exception, though. Most parents need better tools and
understanding of how bad the tools are that conventional society
approves of.
Artists can't depict what they don't know exists. It's visionaries who
illuminate paths to the ideal. Even better are visionaries who are
navigating the paths themselves, figuring out how to help others do
the same.
But since I'm an artist who does know about better tools, I can help
illuminate that reality. (With other people's help.) And I shouldn't
be finding fault with artists who just can't know another way of
living with kids.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/15/2011 4:37 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:
asleep in the living room or in from the car after a drive-in movie, for
example. I was mostly asleep, but aware of him being there - strong and
careful with me - and I felt SO safe and comfortable and happy. And that
trust lasted - it lasted even through times when my dad wasn't very
worthy of trust when I was an older teen and he was a secret alcoholic.
And I think it had an effect on him, too, because even when he flaked on
everybody else, he was there for me.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He felt safe enough to fall asleep in my arms and I wanted to makeI remember being carried in my dad's arms - to my bed after falling
> sure that I would always be the person he could feel safe with, that
> he could always count on me for security and comfort.I
asleep in the living room or in from the car after a drive-in movie, for
example. I was mostly asleep, but aware of him being there - strong and
careful with me - and I felt SO safe and comfortable and happy. And that
trust lasted - it lasted even through times when my dad wasn't very
worthy of trust when I was an older teen and he was a secret alcoholic.
And I think it had an effect on him, too, because even when he flaked on
everybody else, he was there for me.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/15/2011 8:38 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
strongest emotion most people ever feel - it makes sense that artists
would very frequently try to capture it.
I'll be honest, Joyce, and say it concerns me a bit - the idea of
putting together a collection of photos of unschooled kids behaving
badly. (If I've understood correctly what you have in mind. I guess it
is because I've become aware of a LOT of bashing of unschooling going on
in homeschooling circles, and the main accusation is that our kids
behave badly and we unschooling parents don't do anything about it. It
feels like it could be handing them ammunition. But maybe I've
misunderstood exactly what you are creating.
It is usually pretty easy to notice when kids behave badly and often
quite difficult for others to see and understand what the unschooling
parent is doing about it. And, there are the occasional unschooling
parents who are at a loss and are not really doing anything about
chronic problematic behaviors.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>That parent/child bonding/worshiping/loving/bliss is probably the
> But since I'm an artist who does know about better tools, I can help
> illuminate that reality. (With other people's help.) And I shouldn't
> be finding fault with artists who just can't know another way of
> living with kids.
strongest emotion most people ever feel - it makes sense that artists
would very frequently try to capture it.
I'll be honest, Joyce, and say it concerns me a bit - the idea of
putting together a collection of photos of unschooled kids behaving
badly. (If I've understood correctly what you have in mind. I guess it
is because I've become aware of a LOT of bashing of unschooling going on
in homeschooling circles, and the main accusation is that our kids
behave badly and we unschooling parents don't do anything about it. It
feels like it could be handing them ammunition. But maybe I've
misunderstood exactly what you are creating.
It is usually pretty easy to notice when kids behave badly and often
quite difficult for others to see and understand what the unschooling
parent is doing about it. And, there are the occasional unschooling
parents who are at a loss and are not really doing anything about
chronic problematic behaviors.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>I understood Joyce's idea differently. When she asked for photos of
> I'll be honest, Joyce, and say it concerns me a bit - the idea of
> putting together a collection of photos of unschooled kids behaving
> badly. (If I've understood correctly what you have in mind. I guess it
> is because I've become aware of a LOT of bashing of unschooling
> going on
> in homeschooling circles, and the main accusation is that our kids
> behave badly and we unschooling parents don't do anything about it. It
> feels like it could be handing them ammunition. But maybe I've
> misunderstood exactly what you are creating.
what conventional parents might consider "bad" it occurred to me that
"bad" meant unusual or breaking conventional "rules" about what kids
should do to grow up and be the people those parents want them to be.
I have a friend (actually an ex-friend) who wouldn't be caught dead at
an anime convention with her daughter. She wouldn't be caught dead at
anything her daughter likes in fact, but if it's what *she* the mother
wants, her girl has to go along with it.
Conventional parents tend to separate "things my kid likes to do" from
"things I want him to do." Unschooling parents tend to encourage,
support, provide advice, and do what their kids like to do. That would
preclude (usually) things that are illegal or injurious to others. And
if those kinds of things do happen, unschooling parents help their
kids, they don't ignore them nor punish them.
I can think of one friend whose daughter is a master of makeup,
costuming and hair coloring. Her mom supports her fully. She looks
awesome, but people have looked at her and think "goth" = "bad" or
"disaffected youth." Some of her friends dress in similar ways, but
their parents definitely prefer that they didn't or couldn't care less
or have kicked them out of the house. It's a completely different
mindset.
I'm thinking that some people, unschooling or otherwise, might look at
pulling up weeds that aren't weeds as a "bad" thing. But there's a
difference in how the parent sees and reacts to it. An unschooling
parent might caption such a photo "Binky pulled up the hyacinths, in
her glee to pull weeds in the garden with me. Together, we took a look
at the how the roots were different and that the hyacinth had a bulb
and talked about how it would bloom into beautiful fragrant blossoms
if we put it back into the earth." A conventional parent might have a
fit over a child pulling out a hyacinth and shame her for that, if not
punish her.
Anyway, that's what I was thinking when I read what Joyce was
proposing <g>.
Robin B.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 15, 2011, at 12:08 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
sound bites. And the "sound bite" I titled my idea with is "bad" kids.
And I've been cleaning that up all morning :-/
But lots of people did let the rest of the text recolor any initially
impression! (And I'll get responding to the pictures people have sent
when I get done cleaning this up ;-)
I do understand your concern. I don't want unschoolers or outsiders
getting the idea that unschoolers get a free pass to act however they
please.
My *huge* focus over the years has been on understanding and helping
others understand how perception colors what we think we see and what
we think we're communicating. So it's got me scratching my head that
you're picturing me putting up pictures and words without a critical
eye to how it will be perceived by more mainstream people.
Oh .... maybe my post came across as implying the pictures would be
going up without being filtered by me? (I *hope* people realize that!
The judgement won't be on some vague artistic merit but by how clear
the pictures and words are at illustrating a positive point, and how
low they are on the scale of being misinterpreted by non-unschoolers.
I'm willing to work with people to make sure the ideas are as clear as
they can be.)
The picture example I put up at the blog is hardly bad (or "bad") by
any assessment! ;-) And the word examples after the "bad" examples --
which I'd see as kid curiosity (the results of which the parents can
learn from and find better direction for in the future) -- weren't bad
either:
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'll be honest, Joyce, and say it concerns me a bit - the idea ofWell, one thing, I should *know* that people pick up understanding in
> putting together a collection of photos of unschooled kids behaving
> badly. (If I've understood correctly what you have in mind
sound bites. And the "sound bite" I titled my idea with is "bad" kids.
And I've been cleaning that up all morning :-/
But lots of people did let the rest of the text recolor any initially
impression! (And I'll get responding to the pictures people have sent
when I get done cleaning this up ;-)
I do understand your concern. I don't want unschoolers or outsiders
getting the idea that unschoolers get a free pass to act however they
please.
My *huge* focus over the years has been on understanding and helping
others understand how perception colors what we think we see and what
we think we're communicating. So it's got me scratching my head that
you're picturing me putting up pictures and words without a critical
eye to how it will be perceived by more mainstream people.
Oh .... maybe my post came across as implying the pictures would be
going up without being filtered by me? (I *hope* people realize that!
The judgement won't be on some vague artistic merit but by how clear
the pictures and words are at illustrating a positive point, and how
low they are on the scale of being misinterpreted by non-unschoolers.
I'm willing to work with people to make sure the ideas are as clear as
they can be.)
The picture example I put up at the blog is hardly bad (or "bad") by
any assessment! ;-) And the word examples after the "bad" examples --
which I'd see as kid curiosity (the results of which the parents can
learn from and find better direction for in the future) -- weren't bad
either:
> * Kids you've helped do something that conventional parents wouldn'tDoes that clear it up?
> allow.
> --> Like messy painting. Like going up the slide instead of down.
> Like marker tattoos on any bare skin showing (one of my daughter's
> favorites!) :-)
>
> * Doing things with kids that most parents don't have time for.
> --> Like playing video games together. Like going to anime
> conventions together. ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"A conventional parent might have a
fit over a child pulling out a hyacinth and shame her for that, if not
punish her."
So yesterday I was taking Gigi for her almost daily pony rides on her pony Honey and everytime we go by a certain tree Honey tries to eat the leaves.
The two of us always laugh at it and I said to Honey :" Honey voce e uma sem-vergonha" which translates to :
"You are shameless" . It was all said in a loving way as "sem-vergonha" can be used in a sweet way in Portuguese.
So Gigi asked me was it meant and I translated to her, Then she asked me what shame was. Boy did I have a hard time giving an example that she could understand.
She is not ashamed of going out in costumes, with her face painted all colors or anything like that. She is not ashamed in dancing and singing and asking questions.
I do have a lot of pictures of my kids doing things other parents will cringe but Brian and I thought they were so much fun like painting themselves head to toe, fingerpainting with cake, and some other cute ones~!
My kids also love to hear stories of when they were babies and had explosive poop or peed on us.
Alex Polikowksy
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fit over a child pulling out a hyacinth and shame her for that, if not
punish her."
So yesterday I was taking Gigi for her almost daily pony rides on her pony Honey and everytime we go by a certain tree Honey tries to eat the leaves.
The two of us always laugh at it and I said to Honey :" Honey voce e uma sem-vergonha" which translates to :
"You are shameless" . It was all said in a loving way as "sem-vergonha" can be used in a sweet way in Portuguese.
So Gigi asked me was it meant and I translated to her, Then she asked me what shame was. Boy did I have a hard time giving an example that she could understand.
She is not ashamed of going out in costumes, with her face painted all colors or anything like that. She is not ashamed in dancing and singing and asking questions.
I do have a lot of pictures of my kids doing things other parents will cringe but Brian and I thought they were so much fun like painting themselves head to toe, fingerpainting with cake, and some other cute ones~!
My kids also love to hear stories of when they were babies and had explosive poop or peed on us.
Alex Polikowksy
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Would you consider stories too...
My middle son Martin, eleven, talks constantly--gushes impossible
wonderful ideas from time travel to anything that catches his
interest. Most adults get extremely annoyed when they hear him
speaking to me, coupled with the fact that rather than Mommy he often
calls me Marina. They would rather talk to me about adult things and
think I take him too seriously. There is still a strong current of
children being seen rather than heard surrounding parenting streams,
even the most "liberal". That I enjoy listening to him at age twelve
and am respectful of his ideas draws nasty remarks on occasion.
Today, Rowan(fifteen) my oldest son came into the kitchen as I was
cleaning up and remarked: "I am starting to like talking to Martin,
even though he drives me crazy because his relentless examination and
questioning of everything is a family trait. He's actually a pretty
smart guy and he's starting to grow up and listen better than he used
to".
Marina
My middle son Martin, eleven, talks constantly--gushes impossible
wonderful ideas from time travel to anything that catches his
interest. Most adults get extremely annoyed when they hear him
speaking to me, coupled with the fact that rather than Mommy he often
calls me Marina. They would rather talk to me about adult things and
think I take him too seriously. There is still a strong current of
children being seen rather than heard surrounding parenting streams,
even the most "liberal". That I enjoy listening to him at age twelve
and am respectful of his ideas draws nasty remarks on occasion.
Today, Rowan(fifteen) my oldest son came into the kitchen as I was
cleaning up and remarked: "I am starting to like talking to Martin,
even though he drives me crazy because his relentless examination and
questioning of everything is a family trait. He's actually a pretty
smart guy and he's starting to grow up and listen better than he used
to".
Marina
On 15/06/2011, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> On Jun 15, 2011, at 12:08 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
>
>> I'll be honest, Joyce, and say it concerns me a bit - the idea of
>> putting together a collection of photos of unschooled kids behaving
>> badly. (If I've understood correctly what you have in mind
>
>
> Well, one thing, I should *know* that people pick up understanding in
> sound bites. And the "sound bite" I titled my idea with is "bad" kids.
> And I've been cleaning that up all morning :-/
>
> But lots of people did let the rest of the text recolor any initially
> impression! (And I'll get responding to the pictures people have sent
> when I get done cleaning this up ;-)
>
> I do understand your concern. I don't want unschoolers or outsiders
> getting the idea that unschoolers get a free pass to act however they
> please.
>
> My *huge* focus over the years has been on understanding and helping
> others understand how perception colors what we think we see and what
> we think we're communicating. So it's got me scratching my head that
> you're picturing me putting up pictures and words without a critical
> eye to how it will be perceived by more mainstream people.
>
> Oh .... maybe my post came across as implying the pictures would be
> going up without being filtered by me? (I *hope* people realize that!
> The judgement won't be on some vague artistic merit but by how clear
> the pictures and words are at illustrating a positive point, and how
> low they are on the scale of being misinterpreted by non-unschoolers.
> I'm willing to work with people to make sure the ideas are as clear as
> they can be.)
>
> The picture example I put up at the blog is hardly bad (or "bad") by
> any assessment! ;-) And the word examples after the "bad" examples --
> which I'd see as kid curiosity (the results of which the parents can
> learn from and find better direction for in the future) -- weren't bad
> either:
>
>> * Kids you've helped do something that conventional parents wouldn't
>> allow.
>> --> Like messy painting. Like going up the slide instead of down.
>> Like marker tattoos on any bare skin showing (one of my daughter's
>> favorites!) :-)
>>
>> * Doing things with kids that most parents don't have time for.
>> --> Like playing video games together. Like going to anime
>> conventions together. ;-)
>
> Does that clear it up?
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
--
"Insomnia is almost an oasis in which those who have to think or suffer
darkly take refuge." --Colette--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
Pam Sorooshian
On 6/15/2011 10:39 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
without saying. The "idea" of it is, as I said, a little bit of a
concern to me. Even if it is more unconventional stuff than actually bad
behavior, I'm still confessing to having a little twinge of concern over
unschoolers being viewed as anti-social and parents as 'un-parents.'
Maybe it is just where I live, but I feel like I'm on the defense a lot,
these days, over this issue of the behavior of unschooled kids and
whether or not their parents are being appropriately responsive.
I think it is fantastic that unschooling parents will support their
kids when they are unconventional and want to do things that mainstream
parents might scoff at and refuse to consider or allow. I've definitely
been one of those parents, at times. On the other hand, unschooling
doesn't mean being purposely unconventional or "bad" for the sake of
being that way, but that's what I sometimes see sort of glorified by
unschooling parents. Sometimes they seem to take pleasure in making
other parents uncomfortable, for example, like it proves they are great
unschooling parents because they let their kids do what other parents
object to. And sometimes those things are relatively harmless, but
sometimes they are actually anti-social behaviors - inconsiderate, rude,
or even hurtful or dangerous to others.
I'm not objecting to your project, Joyce. Just saying it brought up this
twinge of concern that's been bothering me for quite a while now about
how unschooling seems more and more often promoted by unschoolers in
this particular way.
I mean - it IS unconventional to not school our kids, of course, so
unschoolers are nonconformists, by definition. I'm maybe getting a
little tired of others seeming to be so surprised that my unschooled
kids are so well socialized and so conventional in their adult choices.
People have said to me that they are surprised that my kids seem so
"normal." I've been feeling like our unschooling credentials are
considered questionable, these days, because my kids are making pretty
conventional choices for 20-somethings. Again, I'm just explaining and
evaluating my own reaction - it is my personal reaction and might be of
interest to others, but I'm not trying to sway Joyce to do something
different.
I might regret sending this because if I think more about it, I might
have some different things to say, but I'm going to send it now with the
caveat that it is just part of something that I'm still thinking about
and considering. Still a but mushy in my head, but there is something
there and I'm trying to articulate it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Well, one thing, I should *know* that people pick up understanding inWell - I have a lot of confidence in you, personally, Joyce. That goes
> sound bites. And the "sound bite" I titled my idea with is "bad" kids.
> And I've been cleaning that up all morning :-/
without saying. The "idea" of it is, as I said, a little bit of a
concern to me. Even if it is more unconventional stuff than actually bad
behavior, I'm still confessing to having a little twinge of concern over
unschoolers being viewed as anti-social and parents as 'un-parents.'
Maybe it is just where I live, but I feel like I'm on the defense a lot,
these days, over this issue of the behavior of unschooled kids and
whether or not their parents are being appropriately responsive.
I think it is fantastic that unschooling parents will support their
kids when they are unconventional and want to do things that mainstream
parents might scoff at and refuse to consider or allow. I've definitely
been one of those parents, at times. On the other hand, unschooling
doesn't mean being purposely unconventional or "bad" for the sake of
being that way, but that's what I sometimes see sort of glorified by
unschooling parents. Sometimes they seem to take pleasure in making
other parents uncomfortable, for example, like it proves they are great
unschooling parents because they let their kids do what other parents
object to. And sometimes those things are relatively harmless, but
sometimes they are actually anti-social behaviors - inconsiderate, rude,
or even hurtful or dangerous to others.
I'm not objecting to your project, Joyce. Just saying it brought up this
twinge of concern that's been bothering me for quite a while now about
how unschooling seems more and more often promoted by unschoolers in
this particular way.
I mean - it IS unconventional to not school our kids, of course, so
unschoolers are nonconformists, by definition. I'm maybe getting a
little tired of others seeming to be so surprised that my unschooled
kids are so well socialized and so conventional in their adult choices.
People have said to me that they are surprised that my kids seem so
"normal." I've been feeling like our unschooling credentials are
considered questionable, these days, because my kids are making pretty
conventional choices for 20-somethings. Again, I'm just explaining and
evaluating my own reaction - it is my personal reaction and might be of
interest to others, but I'm not trying to sway Joyce to do something
different.
I might regret sending this because if I think more about it, I might
have some different things to say, but I'm going to send it now with the
caveat that it is just part of something that I'm still thinking about
and considering. Still a but mushy in my head, but there is something
there and I'm trying to articulate it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 15, 2011, at 1:11 PM, Robin Bentley wrote:
Joyce
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> Conventional parents tend to separate "things my kid likes to do" fromYes, that's it :-) Thanks Robin.
> "things I want him to do." Unschooling parents tend to encourage,
> support, provide advice, and do what their kids like to do. That would
> preclude (usually) things that are illegal or injurious to others. And
> if those kinds of things do happen, unschooling parents help their
> kids, they don't ignore them nor punish them.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
I sent Holly Joyce's first call for photos, and my response, and Holly sent this:
-----------
-----------
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I would LOVE to have pictures of "bad" kids :-)[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Mom,
>
> Before I saw your response I was thinking of photos you took the night I dug a mud-pit in the side yard after the sun went down.
>
> There is a sweet story to go with it too: I had a splinter in my foot- suppose because I was out there in the muddy darkness with no shoes- and after I showered I stayed wrapped in a towel on your bed until we got it out. It was late at night and all the boys were gone- I think at an SCA event- I remember crying some because it hurt, and feeling embarrassed (I was just at that age) to not have more/better clothes on.
>
> I'm not positive where those photos are, or if one may already be scanned? But that seems to better fit Joyce's idea for the blog anyway than the Punisher-pudding story. I mean, if you actually had pictures OF the wrestling, I'd say maybe!!
>
> I'll try to keep an eye out for more fun stories documented in film.
>
> Holly
Ruth Glowacki
Yesterday I had the opportunity to watch my 12 year old fall asleep in
the car. He was kinda quiet and I suspected he might fall asleep so I
turned the rear-view mirror a bit and saw him cozy in the back seat,
with his eyes just fluttering shut. He looked so peaceful and happy and
I my heart felt so full (still does.)
-Ruth-
the car. He was kinda quiet and I suspected he might fall asleep so I
turned the rear-view mirror a bit and saw him cozy in the back seat,
with his eyes just fluttering shut. He looked so peaceful and happy and
I my heart felt so full (still does.)
-Ruth-
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 15, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Marina DeLuca-Howard wrote:
discussions as you listen! :-)
I'm a visual person which is what fired my imagination about the
blog. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Would you consider stories too...Maybe Rowan can capture a picture of him deeply involved in one of his
>
> My middle son Martin, eleven, talks constantly--gushes impossible
> wonderful ideas from time travel to anything that catches his
> interest.
discussions as you listen! :-)
I'm a visual person which is what fired my imagination about the
blog. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 15, 2011, at 7:23 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
And now I actually have some time to plunge into what people have sent
me. (Thank you very much! And I will continue to take whatever people
would like to send :-)
If anyone would like updates by email (like Sandra's Just Add Light
and Stir) there's a sign up thingy on the right at the blog:
http://unschoolingphilosophyillustrated.blogspot.com/
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I sent Holly Joyce's first call for photos, and my response, andYes! Thank Holly for me. That would be awesome.
> Holly sent this:
And now I actually have some time to plunge into what people have sent
me. (Thank you very much! And I will continue to take whatever people
would like to send :-)
If anyone would like updates by email (like Sandra's Just Add Light
and Stir) there's a sign up thingy on the right at the blog:
http://unschoolingphilosophyillustrated.blogspot.com/
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jay Ford
I read Joyce's post immediately after catching an episode of Dr. Phil (never
watch TV, somehow ended up there) where he was admonishing parents to control
their child's (especially teens) access to computers, cell phones, and the
internet or you were just courting danger. The episode involved teen girls who
met strangers (men) over the internet.
A year and a half ago my (then) 15 year old daughter was on Chat Roulette (yes,
that Chat Roulette) and met a really cool 17 year old boy from England. He
visited us last August; she spent 3 weeks with his family over Christmas in
England and Wales. She is currently a month into a 3-month visit to his family
and will likely get to visit Scotland this trip.
Some people are shocked that I have "allowed" my 16-yr-old to visit virtual
strangers in a foreign country for <gasp!> 3 months, especially an
18-yr-old BOY!
Wish I had a pic of her on her laptop. That internet is a dangerous place.
Jon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
watch TV, somehow ended up there) where he was admonishing parents to control
their child's (especially teens) access to computers, cell phones, and the
internet or you were just courting danger. The episode involved teen girls who
met strangers (men) over the internet.
A year and a half ago my (then) 15 year old daughter was on Chat Roulette (yes,
that Chat Roulette) and met a really cool 17 year old boy from England. He
visited us last August; she spent 3 weeks with his family over Christmas in
England and Wales. She is currently a month into a 3-month visit to his family
and will likely get to visit Scotland this trip.
Some people are shocked that I have "allowed" my 16-yr-old to visit virtual
strangers in a foreign country for <gasp!> 3 months, especially an
18-yr-old BOY!
Wish I had a pic of her on her laptop. That internet is a dangerous place.
Jon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Jon when I was 16 my parents let me come to the US to work for a dog handler they never met and I traveled with a make friend who was about 21 and they also met for the first time in the airport.
I spent almost a year traveling the whole country and going to dog shows and working very hard and learning what I wanted to learn.
It was the amazing. My parents trusted me and supported me. I was not unschooled but my parents did so many things that I hope I am doing for my children.
Needles to say I am close to my mom and dad and I am very confident on my abilities and I thing that "trip" was one of the things that made me such a confident person.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I spent almost a year traveling the whole country and going to dog shows and working very hard and learning what I wanted to learn.
It was the amazing. My parents trusted me and supported me. I was not unschooled but my parents did so many things that I hope I am doing for my children.
Needles to say I am close to my mom and dad and I am very confident on my abilities and I thing that "trip" was one of the things that made me such a confident person.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:28 AM, Jay Ford wrote:
she flew -- alone! -- to Warsaw to meet a girl she'd been writing
stories with and talking about their characters on Subeta (one of
those adopt a pet sites and play games with them like the biggie
that's slipping my mind.) I have pictures of her and Mara in Warsaw I
can use. (Boy, that's going to require some careful wording to make it
not sound as scary as conventional parents will want to read into it!)
Predators don't need to spend 5 years making up stories about little
creatures! They have radar for needy kids. All they need to say is
some form of "I understand. I'm willing to listen and be your friend."
And their focus shifts to personal rather than what the kids are on
the site to do. Kids who are confident their parents are there to help
them don't need to turn to strangers for that.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Some people are shocked that I have "allowed" my 16-yr-old to visitOh, oh, thank you for (inadvertently) reminding me! When Kat was 16
> virtual
> strangers in a foreign country for <gasp!> 3 months, especially an
> 18-yr-old BOY!
she flew -- alone! -- to Warsaw to meet a girl she'd been writing
stories with and talking about their characters on Subeta (one of
those adopt a pet sites and play games with them like the biggie
that's slipping my mind.) I have pictures of her and Mara in Warsaw I
can use. (Boy, that's going to require some careful wording to make it
not sound as scary as conventional parents will want to read into it!)
Predators don't need to spend 5 years making up stories about little
creatures! They have radar for needy kids. All they need to say is
some form of "I understand. I'm willing to listen and be your friend."
And their focus shifts to personal rather than what the kids are on
the site to do. Kids who are confident their parents are there to help
them don't need to turn to strangers for that.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I read Joyce's post immediately after catching an episode of Dr. Phil (never
watch TV, somehow ended up there) where he was admonishing parents to control
their child's (especially teens) access to computers, cell phones, and the
internet or you were just courting danger. The episode involved teen girls who
met strangers (men) over the internet.-=-
I'm staying with people who are married because they met in an online RPG game in the 1980's. They have three children; the oldest lately graduated from college.
I travelled here with a family I met because they read some of my stuff on the internet and called me. (That's Schuyler's family.)
I've been staying with families in Scotland and England who only know me because of the internet. I accepted e-mail invitations.
Being long past the teenaged girl stage, I'm not in much of that sort of danger, but here are some ideas about safety of children and teens regarding the internet:
http://sandradodd.com/onlinesafety
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
watch TV, somehow ended up there) where he was admonishing parents to control
their child's (especially teens) access to computers, cell phones, and the
internet or you were just courting danger. The episode involved teen girls who
met strangers (men) over the internet.-=-
I'm staying with people who are married because they met in an online RPG game in the 1980's. They have three children; the oldest lately graduated from college.
I travelled here with a family I met because they read some of my stuff on the internet and called me. (That's Schuyler's family.)
I've been staying with families in Scotland and England who only know me because of the internet. I accepted e-mail invitations.
Being long past the teenaged girl stage, I'm not in much of that sort of danger, but here are some ideas about safety of children and teens regarding the internet:
http://sandradodd.com/onlinesafety
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
""I'm staying with people who are married because they met in an online RPG game in the 1980's. They have three children; the oldest lately graduated from college.
I travelled here with a family I met because they read some of my stuff on the internet and called me. (That's Schuyler's family.)"
-=-=-
I met my husband online. After a month of talking I flew over to Minnesota ( from North Carolina) and spent 9 days with him in his house and met all his family.
I also have had a few families come visit and stay over here that I met on unschooling lists online. We love those families!
I am just exchanging texts with the teen of one of those families who have been friends now with our family for 7 years!
Alex Polikowsky
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Jay Ford
>>>> Duh I can send a picture of her enjoying England!Maybe you mean Holly? We made Kat take us with her to England so that
wasn't solo for her ;-)<<<
No, I meant my daughter, currently in England with a family she met over the
internet. :)
Sorry I forgot to add the subject line before.
Jon
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 19, 2011, at 8:13 AM, Jay Ford wrote:
I can even add in a picture of me and Sandra I have somewhere.
Thanks for the pictures :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> No, I meant my daughter, currently in England with a family she metOh, yes, sorry!
> over the
> internet. :)
I can even add in a picture of me and Sandra I have somewhere.
Thanks for the pictures :-)
Joyce
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