Amy

Quick background: We started unschooling in October 2010, but were living with people who embraced traditional parenting until mid-March, at which time we were able to get our own place. While living with the other family, our 5yo dd (Zoe) had restrictions on tv watching. She also had to be in our room by a certain time every night, so she would not disturb the other family, since they worked and went to school. We didn't have a tv in our room, but she was able to watch videos on the computer until she chose to go to sleep.

Since our move to our own place, she has begun to stay up all night watching tv. (Could we still be deschooling?) Because of her new schedule, dh and I stay up as late as we can so we get to spend time with her. When we get tired - usually around 3am, we go to sleep. She would rather I stay up with her, but I just can't seem to manage it. She knows that if she needs anything, she can come get me.

Zoe goes to sleep between 8-10am and wakes up between 7-9pm. Then she spends some time snuggling with me and we play games, pretend, etc. By the time she is ready (physically, mentally, emotionally) to go somewhere it's usually too late to do the types of things she wants to do.

I'm posting today because my dh and I were talking about it and are trying to decide what (if anything) we should do. I'm not sure if we should just continue as we are or if it would be better for Zoe if I start waking her up so we can do some of the fun things she wants to do. At 5yo I'm not sure if she understands that in order to go to these places, she would need to go to bed earlier, even though I've explained it to her. Also, what if she says she wants to do something, but when it's time to get up she says she'd rather sleep more?

She is obviously happy watching tv all night. But I don't want her to NOT be able to do the other things that she wants to do. I want to be her partner in finding what makes her happy. I am a SAHM, so should I modify my sleep schedule to match hers? And what should I do about finding things for her to do in the evening? There doesn't seem to be much for a 5yo to do out of the house after 10pm.

Any insight or other ways of thinking about this would really be appreciated.

Amy

Sallyanne Visser

Hi, I have had similar feelings in the past but found it was not difficult
to transform. A few things helped us get more out of our day.

I would ask her what she would like to do, or when she suggests something
that it is really too late to do, I would say FANTASTIC idea! shall we go
tomorrow, then I would set about preparing, ie planning bus routes,
prepping food etc...generally getting excited, and talking about a plan,
including a reasonable leaving time.
In the morning I would wake up with plenty of time to get ready (based on
our need to sloth first thing) and wake my child in a different manner from
normal wake up, like with a hot choc, or a gentle tickle fight and a general
feeling of anticipation.
I can't imagine a 5 year old NOT wanting to get up and do the fun thing,
however, if they didn't, I would leave them to sleeping (I would give it a
few goes tho in case they didn't actually register what was happening)

The great thing about that age is its often easy to change sleeping patterns
to suit a fun day because a few full days will generally see them crash out
early. If she can't manage to get through a full day happily after a late
night and early morning, just be ready for that, with food drink and a way
out (home). Start early so that you can come home early if needed.
It will switch around quickly if your days are worth getting up for.

The only other thing that can happen (and did to us briefly) is if she can't
make it through a whole day, naps, then stays up all night, and this becomes
a pattern. I wasn't thrilled to be honest when my son went through a patch
of this, however it really didn't matter and it stopped after about 3 weeks
without me doing anything about it... but the ALL night awake did bother me.

Sallyanne


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rose Dakin

Hi there --

as a scientist, this email was alarming to me; more so than the alcohol
exchange, even :)

circadian rhythms are so important to mammals, birds, plants, bacteria -- in
ways we do understand and ways we don't. On mental health and physical
health. Children, even more than adults, need to be exposed to real true
sunlight. The bacteria in our gut, which influence our immune responses,
take their cues from sensing daylight. Even if she's asleep, you could carry
her outside to be exposed to the sun in the day. Gradually, if she gets
enough true sunlight exposure during the day and complete darkness at night
this will tell her body when it is time to sleep and when it is time to be
awake. A five year old can't make that decision for her body through logic.
It is biological.

a short comment on the drinking discussion -- studies show that "permissive"
behavior does not create more responsible drinkers. On average, they don't
drink less or less often. That's the average. There's a lot of other things
that go into those decisions, but just being permissive about children
drinking at home doesn't create less alcoholic tendencies in those people
when they become adults. One aspect that is interesting to me is the part
about peer pressure. A big part of parenting is controlling who your
children spend time with; an impossible task in school situations, but
automatic in unschooling. So even if unschoolers are "permissive", they may
create a social atmosphere for their children where peer pressure supports
good decisions. I don't have a teenager yet, and I'm actually less concerned
about alcohol than marijuana, which can bias a young brain toward mental
health issues. But again, if we're controlling the peer group to some
extent, she won't engage in habits that we don't engage in, unless there is
external, and persistent, pressure.

rose

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Amy <amyterese0303@...> wrote:

>
>
> Quick background: We started unschooling in October 2010, but were living
> with people who embraced traditional parenting until mid-March, at which
> time we were able to get our own place. While living with the other family,
> our 5yo dd (Zoe) had restrictions on tv watching. She also had to be in our
> room by a certain time every night, so she would not disturb the other
> family, since they worked and went to school. We didn't have a tv in our
> room, but she was able to watch videos on the computer until she chose to go
> to sleep.
>
> Since our move to our own place, she has begun to stay up all night
> watching tv. (Could we still be deschooling?) Because of her new schedule,
> dh and I stay up as late as we can so we get to spend time with her. When we
> get tired - usually around 3am, we go to sleep. She would rather I stay up
> with her, but I just can't seem to manage it. She knows that if she needs
> anything, she can come get me.
>
> Zoe goes to sleep between 8-10am and wakes up between 7-9pm. Then she
> spends some time snuggling with me and we play games, pretend, etc. By the
> time she is ready (physically, mentally, emotionally) to go somewhere it's
> usually too late to do the types of things she wants to do.
>
> I'm posting today because my dh and I were talking about it and are trying
> to decide what (if anything) we should do. I'm not sure if we should just
> continue as we are or if it would be better for Zoe if I start waking her up
> so we can do some of the fun things she wants to do. At 5yo I'm not sure if
> she understands that in order to go to these places, she would need to go to
> bed earlier, even though I've explained it to her. Also, what if she says
> she wants to do something, but when it's time to get up she says she'd
> rather sleep more?
>
> She is obviously happy watching tv all night. But I don't want her to NOT
> be able to do the other things that she wants to do. I want to be her
> partner in finding what makes her happy. I am a SAHM, so should I modify my
> sleep schedule to match hers? And what should I do about finding things for
> her to do in the evening? There doesn't seem to be much for a 5yo to do out
> of the house after 10pm.
>
> Any insight or other ways of thinking about this would really be
> appreciated.
>
> Amy
>
>
>



--
home: (240) 764-7375
cell: (202) 696-5672
skype: rosedakin
eFax: 866-877-1892


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

aldq75

I would change my sleep schedule to be closer to that of my child and try to gently shift bedtime by a few minutes each day.

You could play flashlight tag, look at the stars together (get a telescope!), swing, go to a restaurant that serves breakfast at all hours or grocery shopping (depending on where you live).

Andrea Q

--- In [email protected], "Amy" <amyterese0303@...> wrote:

She is obviously happy watching tv all night. But I don't want her to NOT be able to do the other things that she wants to do. I want to be her partner in finding what makes her happy. I am a SAHM, so should I modify my sleep schedule to match hers? And what should I do about finding things for her to do in the evening? There doesn't seem to be much for a 5yo to do out of the house after 10pm.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 29, 2011, at 12:23 AM, Rose Dakin wrote:

> There's a lot of other things
> that go into those decisions, but just being permissive about children
> drinking at home doesn't create less alcoholic tendencies in those
> people
> when they become adults.

One of the biggest weaknesses of science is that scientists focus on
what can be quantified and avoid studying what can't. It's easy to
assign a number on a line to kids' access to alcohol in the home on a
scale from Forbidden to Don't bother me. What can be quantified then
seems important. And the "other things" that are more vague seem less
important.

What unschooling parents find is that it's the relationship they have
with their kids -- more importantly whether the kids feel trusted,
supported respected in who they are and what they want -- that is the
primary factor in them making thoughtful decisions in life.

The quality of the relationship between parents and kids isn't easy to
quantify. What factors of the relationship would a researcher choose
to rank as being significant and which would they discount? How would
a researcher determine their ranking objectively?

What is likely to make the results of such an attempt worth very
little is that the factors that are important for conventional
parenting -- eg, children's compliance with parents' agenda for them
-- actually tear down relationships.

> A big part of parenting is controlling who your
> children spend time with; an impossible task in school situations, but
> automatic in unschooling.

It can't be a big part if it's impossible, right?

A big part of unschooling is creating a relationship where kids feel
supported, trusted and respected for who they are (rather than who the
parents believe they could be.)

What tears at relationships -- between parents and kids, between adult
friends, between spouses -- is control. The idea of "I know what's
best for you better than you do."

So, no, controlling who children spend time with is not automatic.
Being their partner in helping them find friends they enjoy spending
time with will work far better than controlling who they spend time
with. It may on the surface look the same, but inside the child the
two will feel very different. Inside the child help will feel like
love and support. Control will feel like closed doors which increases
the desire to go through them.

> So even if unschoolers are "permissive", they may
> create a social atmosphere for their children where peer pressure
> supports
> good decisions.

Being permissive isn't a good concept for unschooling. It also isn't a
good word to use for what unschoolers do since it muddies what's
really happening. Permissive suggests disengagement, detachment,
leaving kids to their own devices, letting them do whatever they want.

Unschooling is about greater engagement with kids than conventional
parenting. It's about connecting with kids to support who they are,
support their interests, help them explore the world.

Kids being allowed to enjoy wine with the family is not at all the
same as being permissive. The only quality they share is whether or
not the parents allow the kids to have alcohol. All the important
factors that build a healthy relationship with alcohol don't exist
under the "Permissive" label.

> I don't have a teenager yet, and I'm actually less concerned
> about alcohol than marijuana, which can bias a young brain toward
> mental
> health issues.

Did you read the article about the Rat Park studies at the link that
was posted before. The whole page can help you rethink your concerns:
http://sandradodd.com/protect

It's not the high that causes kids to use drugs. It's the desire to
escape that can make drugs more attractive than real life. If kids are
enjoying life and feel they have control over what happens to them
they won't need chemicals to escape.

> But again, if we're controlling the peer group to some
> extent, she won't engage in habits that we don't engage in, unless
> there is
> external, and persistent, pressure.

Sounds like a theory based on knowledge of conventional parenting and
conventionally parented kids. It also sounds like thoughts based on
the mindset of a scientific researcher: If I can control the input, I
can control the end result.

What unschoolers find, what unschoolers know from experience is that
it's the trusting, respectful, supportive relationship that is the
biggest factor in how whole kids end up being.

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rod Thomas

<<<<.I wasn't thrilled to be honest when my son went through a patch
of this, however it really didn't matter and it stopped after about 3
weeks
without me doing anything about it... but the ALL night awake did bother
me.

Sallyanne>>>>

Why does it bother us? I have a 12 yo that stays up all night, been
going on for many many months (a year?). I am trying to cope with it
but yes, it bothers me. I don't know if its because a mom cant sleep
soundly unless we know our kids are tucked in, or what. But it also
makes me sad that he is missing out on a lot of the world out there and
all it has to offer on a daily basis. Im being patient, inviting him,
etc. but he sleeps most of the day.
kathy






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-You could play flashlight tag, look at the stars together (get a telescope!), swing, go to a restaurant that serves breakfast at all hours or grocery shopping (depending on where you live). -=-

Here I come to be a party pooper.

Taking a young child out of the house between 10:00 p.m. and 6:00 in the morning is not a great idea. It will look like neglect and craziness to people who might have the obligation to report any crazy neglect they witness.

City parks might be closed late (they are in Albuquerque; Marty had to go to court and do community service for being in a park after hours, just sitting on the slide).

I think if a child has had a bedtime, the excitement of not having one can cause the pendulum to swing far to the other direction, but it will eventually settle and decisions will be being made in a direct, rather than reactionary way, eventually. That's my best guess.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer Schuelein

March of this year? If that is the case, I am going to assume your daughter is decompressing from all of the rules imposed on her at the other home. She's feeling her way through right now and figuring out what feels right to her. She's enjoying her freedom.

I don't see anything wrong with the schedule. However, I would definitely have the same schedule as the child. My son goes to bed around Midnight and gets up around 11 am. If I am not awake yet, my husband is here for Xander. Always having a present adult is important to me. So, you might try her schedule.

Give her some time. She is adjusting to the lack of the strict environment. You can do lots of in home activities at night if she is wanting to do something that isn't watching tv. See if she is interested in crafts or watching a DVD together. Ask her if she wants you to join her in watching tv. Offer to do anything she wants, in the home. Flip the schedule for yourself and then treat the night time as though it's day time.

--- In [email protected], "Amy" <amyterese0303@...> wrote:
>
> Quick background: We started unschooling in October 2010, but were living with people who embraced traditional parenting until mid-March, at which time we were able to get our own place. While living with the other family, our 5yo dd (Zoe) had restrictions on tv watching. She also had to be in our room by a certain time every night, so she would not disturb the other family, since they worked and went to school. We didn't have a tv in our room, but she was able to watch videos on the computer until she chose to go to sleep.
>
> Since our move to our own place, she has begun to stay up all night watching tv. (Could we still be deschooling?) Because of her new schedule, dh and I stay up as late as we can so we get to spend time with her. When we get tired - usually around 3am, we go to sleep. She would rather I stay up with her, but I just can't seem to manage it. She knows that if she needs anything, she can come get me.
>
> Zoe goes to sleep between 8-10am and wakes up between 7-9pm. Then she spends some time snuggling with me and we play games, pretend, etc. By the time she is ready (physically, mentally, emotionally) to go somewhere it's usually too late to do the types of things she wants to do.
>
> I'm posting today because my dh and I were talking about it and are trying to decide what (if anything) we should do. I'm not sure if we should just continue as we are or if it would be better for Zoe if I start waking her up so we can do some of the fun things she wants to do. At 5yo I'm not sure if she understands that in order to go to these places, she would need to go to bed earlier, even though I've explained it to her. Also, what if she says she wants to do something, but when it's time to get up she says she'd rather sleep more?
>
> She is obviously happy watching tv all night. But I don't want her to NOT be able to do the other things that she wants to do. I want to be her partner in finding what makes her happy. I am a SAHM, so should I modify my sleep schedule to match hers? And what should I do about finding things for her to do in the evening? There doesn't seem to be much for a 5yo to do out of the house after 10pm.
>
> Any insight or other ways of thinking about this would really be appreciated.
>
> Amy
>

Sandra Dodd

-=- Children, even more than adults, need to be exposed to real true
sunlight. -=-

Unschoolers are not known to be squint-eyed, pale cave dwellers.

-=- Even if she's asleep, you could carry
her outside to be exposed to the sun in the day.-=-

Seriously? What about opening curtains? Unless people live near the arctic circle, they're unlikely to sleep through all the daylight hours.

-=-as a scientist, this email was alarming to me; more so than the alcohol
exchange, even :)-=-

These discussions don't exist to alarm scientists. :-)
There are tens of thousands of places parents can go to be told they don't know what they're doing, and that they must ask experts. But experts are almost invariably school-supporters (as their expertise involves papers from universities) and it's difficult for them to see the world from another angle.

There have been a couple of people over the years who came here with educational degrees and wanted to move to the front of the line (or "head of the class," probably more like what they might have been thinking), to take the microphone, as it were, and tell us all what was and wasn't valid in their professional opinion.

But what counts on this list is not training or research (though they can be a helpful part of an individual's knowledge), but unschooling experience and the ability to be analytical about it.

I don't mind scientists, doctors, or people with PhDs in education being on this list. It's fine. But they don't get to cut the queue with it.

Express concern on the basis of belief or experience if you want to, but cite sources and have some humility about what you think you know for certain.

-=-A five year old can't make that decision for her body through logic. It is biological.-=-

Before we were unschooling, our kids went to sleep when they wanted to. They went to sleep every night, but we rarely said "it's time." Sometimes it was "I'm too sleeply to stay awake, let's lie down," but they weren't sleeping by the clock. Their naps happened when they were sleepy, and their nighttime sleep was with an adult or two, and when they were tired. It worked really well for us. When we started unschooling and I got involved in discussions and people said "How do you make them go to sleep?" I said "we don't."

There are stories collected here of people who calmed themselves and let sleep happen naturally. A five year old isn't "making a decision for her body." Her body isn't separate from herself. If she has the option to go to sleep or stay awake, she will do what seems most beneficial to her in the moment, and again the next moment, and practicing on safe things at home that way, when she's older she will be able to make big decisions more easily.

http://sandradodd.com/sleep
http://sandradodd.com/choices

-=-A five year old can't make that decision for her body through logic.
It is biological.-=-

What a lot of people are looking at lately is a sleep cycle of four hours, some awake time, and another sleep session. THAT seems to be biological, and historical. Our cultures eight hours, measured by a clock, is cultural and unnatural and people are given drugs if they can't sleep eight hours straight. THAT is not "biological." It's not ANY kind of logical. :-)

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/polyphasic-sleep/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-March of this year? If that is the case, I am going to assume your daughter is decompressing from all of the rules imposed on her at the other home. She's feeling her way through right now and figuring out what feels right to her. She's enjoying her freedom.-=-

True, I'm sure.
But for those who haven't already told a child "All the rules are gone! Do what you want to!" might want to read this, and reconsider:
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer Schuelein

I think part of this is societal conditioning. We are told what is "right" our whole lives. When to eat, sleep and play. As unschoolers, my family has abandoned these societal conditions. I am a night owl and my son showed me his natural night owl tendencies early. I don't see the fact that I feel more productive and happier at night as a bad thing. I often feel drowsy all day, but energized and ready to thrive at night. I realize that the outside world is only open during daylight hours so it really is a hard thing to manage sometimes. My son and I agree to go to bed earlier and get up earlier if we have a special outing planned. He has to want to go to the outing, though and I let him choose if we go or not. Since we are so similar, we agree together when we will make a change to our schedule so we can go to the museum or to a show. For us, it's all about balance. For me personally my main goal is that my son is a happy, loving, intelligent and good person when he arrives at adulthood. He is all of these things now already so I think I'm doing well! As far as being educated, he is also doing great and we stay at home mostly. We watch a lot of educational DVD's and plan a few outings a month, which are very fun and Xander often looks forward to them for weeks.

Each child is different. Each home is different. Letting go of societal expectations to some extent really does help make things harmonious for our family. :)

--- In [email protected], "Rod Thomas" <rthomas314@...> wrote:
>
> <<<<.I wasn't thrilled to be honest when my son went through a patch
> of this, however it really didn't matter and it stopped after about 3
> weeks
> without me doing anything about it... but the ALL night awake did bother
> me.
>
> Sallyanne>>>>
>
> Why does it bother us? I have a 12 yo that stays up all night, been
> going on for many many months (a year?). I am trying to cope with it
> but yes, it bothers me. I don't know if its because a mom cant sleep
> soundly unless we know our kids are tucked in, or what. But it also
> makes me sad that he is missing out on a lot of the world out there and
> all it has to offer on a daily basis. Im being patient, inviting him,
> etc. but he sleeps most of the day.
> kathy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

otherstar

>>>But it also makes me sad that he is missing out on a lot of the world out there and all it has to offer on a daily basis. Im being patient, inviting him, etc. but he sleeps most of the day.<<<

Does your son feel like he is missing out? I ask because my girls (6 & 9) have been going through periods of being up all night. If there is something that we want to do during the day, we plan ahead and work out the sleeping so that we can do whatever it is that we want. The last couple of weeks we went back to a more traditional sleep schedule so they could play with their cousins and do some daytime outings. After a week or two of that, we sat down and talked about it because they were getting cranky and grumpy. My girls flat out told me that they would rather stay home and do their thing at home than do the work of getting up and going places. Their rationale was that they don't like that when we go out and do stuff they have to behave accordingly. When we are out, there are limitations on what they can or can't do depending on where we are going. My girls know that when they play with cousins they are treated like little kids and they don't get to have much of a say in what goes on. They enjoy playing with the cousins but they know that they will not be taken seriously. When they get tired of that, we take a break. My 6 year old has said, "I would rather stay home and get to be myself." My girls see home as a place that is emotionally and physically safe.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 29, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:

> Why does it bother us? I have a 12 yo that stays up all night, been
> going on for many many months (a year?)

Could it be you also miss him? He's basically living a a good portion
of his life separate from you. There's probably a feeling of being
disconnected from him or at least not as connected as you once were.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Patrick

I am new to unschooling my children are young. But what I enjoy doing is leading by example and engaging them with things to do. They do not have a bed time, never have. We don't follow meal times. They eat when they are hungry and sleep when they are tired.

I have been a night owl my whole life (Im 34). I always wanted to stay up late and not miss out on anything. For a few years now alot of that time has been spent with my children up with me.

However, in recent months, things have changed around a bit. For one, I stopped playing a video gm (Madden) all night long and stopped being on the internet all night. The other is that I have been more involved in activities with my children.

Everyday my kids wake up looking forward to going for walks/runs, going to the playground, watching exercise tv (on direct tv- its fun for rainy cold day which we have alot of- they just run around and do their own exercises to the videos though my 5 year old son can keep up with most of the exercise instructors pretty good), going out to stores just to walk/run around, food shopping, going to the library. My daughter is 3.5 years old and will turn the tv off all the time because she would rather do arts n crafts/color with crayon and markers/paint or anything else together. My kids always request me to get off the internet or stop watching the game (im a sports junkie lol) to do activities with them. Dont get me wrong though my kids will choose to watch exercise/music stuff on tv and nick jr and stuff like that- just usually not for long.

So basically, what Im saying I guess, we are busy all day and they sleep well all night. Now when my wife says good bye for work at about 730, I have already been up, and the kids start slowly getting up on their own (usually up by 8 or 9 though my 3 year old will sleep till 10-11 sometimes).

Another thought- My kids also eat tons of raw and organic vegetables and fruit. My 5 year old son would take a banana or apple over candy any day (not so much my daughter but she is a bit younger). Today we ate big thing of snow peas and grape tomatoes :). They did have cereal earlier though before that. When we go to the supermarket they pick out whatever foods they want. Mangoes and star fruit are my sons favorite. I guess because this is how we eat, they honestly dont choose much candy or cookies at all (though my 3 year old does so more often :).

Maybe its because they are so young that they want to be out all the time and love doing stuff other than sitting in front of screens. Maybe the healthy eating combined with the physical activities help, i don't know, but I hope things stay this way. Granted I am doing all this with a 6 month old so I dont get much sleep myself lol.



Patrick





In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 29, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:
>
> > Why does it bother us? I have a 12 yo that stays up all night, been
> > going on for many many months (a year?)
>
> Could it be you also miss him? He's basically living a a good portion
> of his life separate from you. There's probably a feeling of being
> disconnected from him or at least not as connected as you once were.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Rod Thomas

True. And that makes me feel guilty, like im neglecting him. Any
ideas?

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joyce Fetteroll
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 4:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Sleep Schedule, up all night



On Apr 29, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:

> Why does it bother us? I have a 12 yo that stays up all night, been
> going on for many many months (a year?)

Could it be you also miss him? He's basically living a a good portion
of his life separate from you. There's probably a feeling of being
disconnected from him or at least not as connected as you once were.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rose Dakin

-=- Seriously? What about opening curtains? Unless people live near the
arctic circle, they're unlikely to sleep through all the daylight hours. -=-

Glass blocks virtually all UVB rays. Sunlight does more than provide light.
e.g vitamin D, but also a lot of other things we don't know that much about.


-=- Unschoolers are not known to be squint-eyed, pale cave dwellers. -=-

I don't understand the implication. are you implying that unschoolers tend
to be nocturnal? or stay inside? or the opposite? are they not pale because
they do have diurnal rhythms, or in spite of not having them?

-=- Express concern on the basis of belief or experience if you want to, but
cite sources and have some humility about what you think you know for
certain.-=-

sorry about that. I don't feel like providing proper sources, since this is
just supposed to be a helpful discussion, not a defense of anything. there
are some links to studies below to those interested. i didn't mean to sound
arrogant; i have a lot of humility for the unknown in everything.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091026225744.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061106145035.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110428151306.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Latest+Science+News%29
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110303065335.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110309073938.htm
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitaminDPhysiology.shtml

rose


On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=- Children, even more than adults, need to be exposed to real true
> sunlight. -=-
>
> Unschoolers are not known to be squint-eyed, pale cave dwellers.
>
> -=- Even if she's asleep, you could carry
> her outside to be exposed to the sun in the day.-=-
>
> Seriously? What about opening curtains? Unless people live near the arctic
> circle, they're unlikely to sleep through all the daylight hours.
>
> -=-as a scientist, this email was alarming to me; more so than the alcohol
> exchange, even :)-=-
>
> These discussions don't exist to alarm scientists. :-)
> There are tens of thousands of places parents can go to be told they don't
> know what they're doing, and that they must ask experts. But experts are
> almost invariably school-supporters (as their expertise involves papers from
> universities) and it's difficult for them to see the world from another
> angle.
>
> There have been a couple of people over the years who came here with
> educational degrees and wanted to move to the front of the line (or "head of
> the class," probably more like what they might have been thinking), to take
> the microphone, as it were, and tell us all what was and wasn't valid in
> their professional opinion.
>
> But what counts on this list is not training or research (though they can
> be a helpful part of an individual's knowledge), but unschooling experience
> and the ability to be analytical about it.
>
> I don't mind scientists, doctors, or people with PhDs in education being on
> this list. It's fine. But they don't get to cut the queue with it.
>
> Express concern on the basis of belief or experience if you want to, but
> cite sources and have some humility about what you think you know for
> certain.
>
> -=-A five year old can't make that decision for her body through logic. It
> is biological.-=-
>
> Before we were unschooling, our kids went to sleep when they wanted to.
> They went to sleep every night, but we rarely said "it's time." Sometimes it
> was "I'm too sleeply to stay awake, let's lie down," but they weren't
> sleeping by the clock. Their naps happened when they were sleepy, and their
> nighttime sleep was with an adult or two, and when they were tired. It
> worked really well for us. When we started unschooling and I got involved in
> discussions and people said "How do you make them go to sleep?" I said "we
> don't."
>
> There are stories collected here of people who calmed themselves and let
> sleep happen naturally. A five year old isn't "making a decision for her
> body." Her body isn't separate from herself. If she has the option to go to
> sleep or stay awake, she will do what seems most beneficial to her in the
> moment, and again the next moment, and practicing on safe things at home
> that way, when she's older she will be able to make big decisions more
> easily.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/sleep
> http://sandradodd.com/choices
>
> -=-A five year old can't make that decision for her body through logic.
> It is biological.-=-
>
> What a lot of people are looking at lately is a sleep cycle of four hours,
> some awake time, and another sleep session. THAT seems to be biological, and
> historical. Our cultures eight hours, measured by a clock, is cultural and
> unnatural and people are given drugs if they can't sleep eight hours
> straight. THAT is not "biological." It's not ANY kind of logical. :-)
>
> http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/polyphasic-sleep/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

aldq75

If you have a backyard, no one has to see you :)

I'm sure that most people frown upon young kids being out between midnight and 5 AM under normal circumstances, but 11 PM on a weekend night in the summer probably won't raise many eyebrows (in my experience, it hasn't). If asked, you could say that you took a nap earlier and can't sleep.


Andrea Q


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-You could play flashlight tag, look at the stars together (get a telescope!), swing, go to a restaurant that serves breakfast at all hours or grocery shopping (depending on where you live). -=-
>
> Here I come to be a party pooper.
>
> Taking a young child out of the house between 10:00 p.m. and 6:00 in the morning is not a great idea. It will look like neglect and craziness to people who might have the obligation to report any crazy neglect they witness.
>
> City parks might be closed late (they are in Albuquerque; Marty had to go to court and do community service for being in a park after hours, just sitting on the slide).
>
> I think if a child has had a bedtime, the excitement of not having one can cause the pendulum to swing far to the other direction, but it will eventually settle and decisions will be being made in a direct, rather than reactionary way, eventually. That's my best guess.
>
> Sandra

aldq75

Stay up late now and again and share a midnight snack with him. Watch a movie together. Send him emails with links to things he might enjoy.

Andrea Q

--- In [email protected], "Rod Thomas" <rthomas314@...> wrote:
>
> True. And that makes me feel guilty, like im neglecting him. Any
> ideas?

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't feel like providing proper sources, since this is
just supposed to be a helpful discussion, not a defense of anything. -=-

If you don't feel like defending your statements, though, it's not a good idea to make them. That's not just about this list. It's about integrity and courtesy and fairness.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm sure that most people frown upon young kids being out between midnight and 5 AM under normal circumstances, but 11 PM on a weekend night in the summer probably won't raise many eyebrows (in my experience, it hasn't). If asked, you could say that you took a nap earlier and can't sleep. -=-

We've taken our kids to restaurants, late-closing stores, and playgrounds, but we were always aware that we needed to be careful not to make too much noise or attract too much attention.

The reason I made the statement is that some people (more lately than any time before, it seems to me) are getting the idea that there are magical other rules for unschoolers. There aren't. There are reasons for unschoolers to be particularly aware of the expectations of others.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amy

Thanks to everyone who responded. I got a lot of great ideas and was also reminded to have patience. At this point, I'm not worried about her circadian rhythms, since it's only been going on for a little over a week. Maybe since it's only been a week, I should have waited to post. I'll try that next time, but I'm grateful for all the input.

I'm going to wait a while and see how things change on their own, while I try to modify my schedule to better suit hers. I have lots of things to offer her during the day, and she already knows they're there. She loves life, so I think things will turn out just fine. :)

plaidpanties666

"Patrick" <pmurphy06@...> wrote:
>> Maybe its because they are so young that they want to be out all the time and love doing stuff other than sitting in front of screens. Maybe the healthy eating combined with the physical activities help
****************

Age/development is a factor in activity level and food choice - which means those are the sorts of thing that can change. Genetics play into that. Personality does, too. Quirks like sensory issues can play a big role in the way a child chooses what to eat and what activities he or she will choose to do.

>>I hope things stay this way

The trouble with kids, is they grow and change - and their needs change, too. Their basic temperaments stay pretty consistent, but how much they eat and what kind of food they choose tends to shift around a lot as kids go through various stages of growth and development. What interests them will likely change enormously, though, and that could be a shock to your system if you're too attached to things staying the way they are.

Ray's 17 and spends a lot of time building things with wood and metal. When he was 13, he was mostly nocturnal and spent much of his time playing online role playing games. When he was 7 he liked to be inside playing board games and socializing as much as possible. When he was 4, he loved to climb. I wouldn't have guessed working with his hands would interest Ray much at 4 ;)

---Meredith

Rod Thomas

<<<<If you have a backyard, no one has to see you :)

I'm sure that most people frown upon young kids being out between
midnight and 5 AM under normal circumstances, but 11 PM on a weekend
night in the summer probably won't raise many eyebrows (in my
experience, it hasn't). If asked, you could say that you took a nap
earlier and can't sleep. >>>>

Or tell them to mind their own freakin' business. !!!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rod Thomas

Im sorry, I don't get this at all. This can be considered child abuse?
I have never encountered this.

kathy

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Sleep Schedule


-=-I'm sure that most people frown upon young kids being out between
midnight and 5 AM under normal circumstances, but 11 PM on a weekend
night in the summer probably won't raise many eyebrows (in my
experience, it hasn't). If asked, you could say that you took a nap
earlier and can't sleep. -=-

We've taken our kids to restaurants, late-closing stores, and
playgrounds, but we were always aware that we needed to be careful not
to make too much noise or attract too much attention.

The reason I made the statement is that some people (more lately than
any time before, it seems to me) are getting the idea that there are
magical other rules for unschoolers. There aren't. There are reasons for
unschoolers to be particularly aware of the expectations of others.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Rose Dakin <rose.johnny@...> wrote:
> A five year old can't make that decision for her body through logic.
> It is biological.

It's not some kind of once-and-for-all decision, though, its a kind of experiment. A child in a changing situation is experiementing with a different sleep schedule. Similar experiments by other children in unschooling homes suggest the experiment will not be permanent *because* circadean rhythms are biological - once the fascination with being up at all hours wears thin, the body's needs will begin to reassert themselves.

There's more going on here than logic on the one hand and biology on the other - there's a reaction to the effects of previous limits. Pam Sorooshian has a nice essay on the economics of limits - it's specifically about tv, but applies to other kinds of limits as well:

http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=-Or tell them to mind their own freakin' business. !!! -=-

This is a very bad idea.

Just for example, say, a man is out at a truck stop at 1:00 a.m. with a little girl. Someone is likely to report that. If children are outside playing loudly at 11:00 pm "on a school night," it's probably illegal (noise ordinances) and would cause their neighbors or passersby to wonder where their freakin' PARENTS were.

Parents have legal and moral obligations. People who live in a town, or a county, or a city, state, province or country have responsibilities and limits on their freedom. Even unschoolers. The reason I said maybe especially unschoolers is that if you're doing something unusual that riles people up, it's good to do it politely and circumspectly and not to tell anyone (I was thinking of social workers, nurses, doctors or teachers who might have been out late at night and seen a parent and child awake, up, out and about in the middle of the night) to "mind their own freakin' business."

If you don't know what I meant by the obligation to report, please do some research on mandatory reporting. Google will make it easy.

-=-Im sorry, I don't get this at all. This can be considered child abuse?
I have never encountered this.-=-

Did anyone say "child abuse" besides you?

If you don't get that at all, be EXTRA careful with your unschooling and your children, because you're missing some basic knowledge of laws, customs and other realities.

I didn't say abuse. I wrote this, and you had as much ability to go back and get the exact quote as I did:

********
Taking a young child out of the house between 10:00 p.m. and 6:00 in the morning
is not a great idea. It will look like neglect and craziness to people who
might have the obligation to report any crazy neglect they witness.
*********

Neglect isn't the same as abuse. Please think and proofread before you post, and please neither say nor advise others to say "mind your own freakin' business. !!!"

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

> Glass blocks virtually all UVB rays. Sunlight does more than provide
> light.
> e.g vitamin D, but also a lot of other things we don't know that
> much about.

I could go outside every day in the Pacific Northwest and not get
enough Vitamin D. I take supplements :-)
>
> -=- Unschoolers are not known to be squint-eyed, pale cave dwellers.
> -=-
>
> I don't understand the implication. are you implying that
> unschoolers tend
> to be nocturnal? or stay inside? or the opposite? are they not pale
> because
> they do have diurnal rhythms, or in spite of not having them?

Although squint-eyed, pale cave dweller *might* have described my
daughter when she moved into adolescence and before she got glasses
<g>, I think Sandra was saying that regardless of our kids' nocturnal
or diurnal rhythms, they are engaged and healthy and not at all Gollum-
like. I've found that since my daughter (now 16) knows when she's
tired, she sleeps. Sometimes, that's all through the night. Sometimes,
it's through the day. Sometimes, it's a mix. And she's fine.

That doesn't mean I didn't make sleep an attractive option when she
was little. She nursed to sleep for some years, we snuggled while I
read her a story, and she slept with us for a long while. That was
enough *for her* to generally go to bed at the same time we did (which
was usually past 10 p.m.) - being close to us. When she began
sleeping in her own bed, she gradually changed her own rhythms to suit
her interests and I often stayed up with her if she wanted me to. I
still do. I usually don't make it until 4 a.m. though, these days <g>.
>
> -=- Express concern on the basis of belief or experience if you want
> to, but
> cite sources and have some humility about what you think you know for
> certain.-=-
>
> sorry about that. I don't feel like providing proper sources, since
> this is
> just supposed to be a helpful discussion, not a defense of anything.

If you're not willing to support the scientific claims, then we can't
have a helpful discussion. And a helpful discussion means helping
people unschool better.

Perhaps you'd like to give us some anecdotal evidence about your own
unschooled kids, then? I'm keen to know about that.

Robin B.

Sandra Dodd

-=--=- Unschoolers are not known to be squint-eyed, pale cave dwellers. -=-

-=-I don't understand the implication. are you implying that unschoolers tend
to be nocturnal? or stay inside? or the opposite? are they not pale because
they do have diurnal rhythms, or in spite of not having them?-=-

I was saying your reaction was quite an over-reaction, as unschoolers are probably out in the world more than kids who are in school.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- I've found that since my daughter (now 16) knows when she's
tired, she sleeps. Sometimes, that's all through the night. Sometimes,
it's through the day. Sometimes, it's a mix. And she's fine.-=-

That was true of all my kids at that age.

Last night I got up at 1:30 a.m. to watch the William/Catherine show. Marty and his girlfriend (22 and 24) were awake, and another friend came over, too. We stayed up until 6:30 a.m. I had asked Marty if Holly (19) was home. She had taken her guitar and gone out to play music with friends, before I had gone to bed at 10:00. He said no. I kept waiting for her to come home--not really worried, but aware. And we were making more noise than we might have otherwise (detached house, fair-sized lot).

This morning I asked Holly what time she got home, and she said 11:00 p.m. She had been asleep through the whole thing. She was home in bed before Marty got home from role-playing.

The purpose of this story is to illustrate what young adults who never had arbitrary bedtimes can grow up to do on a random night.

-=-That doesn't mean I didn't make sleep an attractive option when she
was little. She nursed to sleep for some years, we snuggled while I
read her a story, and she slept with us for a long while. That was
enough *for her* to generally go to bed at the same time we did (which
was usually past 10 p.m.) - being close to us. When she began
sleeping in her own bed, she gradually changed her own rhythms to suit
her interests and I often stayed up with her if she wanted me to. I
still do. I usually don't make it until 4 a.m. though, these days <g>.-=-

Same at our house. When the kids were younger and we were all sharing one computer, Kirby would stay up late to play computer games, and I would get up early to do e-mail, and Marty and Holly would get their time in after they woke up and before they slept. So Kirby would sleep late, having been up the latest. It worked very well, and gave the kids more time with me (so that I didn't have all three awake at once), and were in various combinations with each other, and that was helpful. Usually it was a pretty good deal to go to bed when I did, for at least one of them.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer Schuelein

>Another thought- My kids also eat tons of raw and organic vegetables and fruit. My 5 year old son would take a banana or apple over candy any day (not so much my daughter but she is a bit younger). Today we ate big thing of snow peas and grape tomatoes :). They did have cereal earlier though before that. When we go to the supermarket they pick out whatever foods they want. Mangoes and star fruit are my sons favorite. I guess because this is how we eat, they honestly dont choose much candy or cookies at all (though my 3 year old does so more often :).
>

My son eats all organic and natural, also, but he is still nocturnal. His rhythms have not changed one bit over the years no matter what he eats. He also eats lots of fruit and little candy. This might seem to you like it helped changed your schedule, but for us, it didn't.

--- In [email protected], "Patrick" <pmurphy06@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I am new to unschooling my children are young. But what I enjoy doing is leading by example and engaging them with things to do. They do not have a bed time, never have. We don't follow meal times. They eat when they are hungry and sleep when they are tired.
>
> I have been a night owl my whole life (Im 34). I always wanted to stay up late and not miss out on anything. For a few years now alot of that time has been spent with my children up with me.
>
> However, in recent months, things have changed around a bit. For one, I stopped playing a video gm (Madden) all night long and stopped being on the internet all night. The other is that I have been more involved in activities with my children.
>
> Everyday my kids wake up looking forward to going for walks/runs, going to the playground, watching exercise tv (on direct tv- its fun for rainy cold day which we have alot of- they just run around and do their own exercises to the videos though my 5 year old son can keep up with most of the exercise instructors pretty good), going out to stores just to walk/run around, food shopping, going to the library. My daughter is 3.5 years old and will turn the tv off all the time because she would rather do arts n crafts/color with crayon and markers/paint or anything else together. My kids always request me to get off the internet or stop watching the game (im a sports junkie lol) to do activities with them. Dont get me wrong though my kids will choose to watch exercise/music stuff on tv and nick jr and stuff like that- just usually not for long.
>
> So basically, what Im saying I guess, we are busy all day and they sleep well all night. Now when my wife says good bye for work at about 730, I have already been up, and the kids start slowly getting up on their own (usually up by 8 or 9 though my 3 year old will sleep till 10-11 sometimes).
>
> Another thought- My kids also eat tons of raw and organic vegetables and fruit. My 5 year old son would take a banana or apple over candy any day (not so much my daughter but she is a bit younger). Today we ate big thing of snow peas and grape tomatoes :). They did have cereal earlier though before that. When we go to the supermarket they pick out whatever foods they want. Mangoes and star fruit are my sons favorite. I guess because this is how we eat, they honestly dont choose much candy or cookies at all (though my 3 year old does so more often :).
>
> Maybe its because they are so young that they want to be out all the time and love doing stuff other than sitting in front of screens. Maybe the healthy eating combined with the physical activities help, i don't know, but I hope things stay this way. Granted I am doing all this with a 6 month old so I dont get much sleep myself lol.
>
>
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
> In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Apr 29, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:
> >
> > > Why does it bother us? I have a 12 yo that stays up all night, been
> > > going on for many many months (a year?)
> >
> > Could it be you also miss him? He's basically living a a good portion
> > of his life separate from you. There's probably a feeling of being
> > disconnected from him or at least not as connected as you once were.
> >
> > Joyce
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>