Reacting to words and "sore" losing
Tina Tarbutton
Draven (11y/o) and Parker (my wife) were just playing a board game and when
Parker won Draven said "I hate you." This is a very hurtful phrase to
Parker and it's really the only thing we don't like him saying. She said
(calmly) "I don't like that" and he says "I don't care".
That's typically how things play out once he says "I hate you" which can
happen at all different times. When Parker and I first met (3+ years ago) I
had a habit of jokingly saying "I hate you" and she told me how much it
bothered her, and over time I worked on not saying it. Draven saw me go
through that process and even helped to remind me not to use that phrase
when I forgot. He knows the reasons it hurts Parker, he seems to understand
those reasons, but when he's upset he says it and once he says it he makes a
big deal out of meaning it and not caring that it hurts her.
Another issue is the way he reacts when he loses. He doesn't often play
games with us and when he does he's said he doesn't want us to let him win.
However, when he loses he is devastated and gets very hurtful. He also
does this when playing video games with people in person (but not so much
online). He's sent friends home before because they beat him in a game.
Most people don't want to play video games with him because they know it
will turn out badly, however it's Draven's favorite thing to do.
I know there is another way to handle this, I'm just not sure what it is
right now and I could use some other insight.
Tina
--
Unschooling Untitled <http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com> (
http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com )
Living an unschooled lifestyle, one experience at a time!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Parker won Draven said "I hate you." This is a very hurtful phrase to
Parker and it's really the only thing we don't like him saying. She said
(calmly) "I don't like that" and he says "I don't care".
That's typically how things play out once he says "I hate you" which can
happen at all different times. When Parker and I first met (3+ years ago) I
had a habit of jokingly saying "I hate you" and she told me how much it
bothered her, and over time I worked on not saying it. Draven saw me go
through that process and even helped to remind me not to use that phrase
when I forgot. He knows the reasons it hurts Parker, he seems to understand
those reasons, but when he's upset he says it and once he says it he makes a
big deal out of meaning it and not caring that it hurts her.
Another issue is the way he reacts when he loses. He doesn't often play
games with us and when he does he's said he doesn't want us to let him win.
However, when he loses he is devastated and gets very hurtful. He also
does this when playing video games with people in person (but not so much
online). He's sent friends home before because they beat him in a game.
Most people don't want to play video games with him because they know it
will turn out badly, however it's Draven's favorite thing to do.
I know there is another way to handle this, I'm just not sure what it is
right now and I could use some other insight.
Tina
--
Unschooling Untitled <http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com> (
http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com )
Living an unschooled lifestyle, one experience at a time!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Who asked to play the board game? Was it Parker or was it Draven?
Can you play video games cooperatively instead of competitively?
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Can you play video games cooperatively instead of competitively?
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tina Tarbutton
> Who asked to play the board game? Was it Parker or was it Draven?his computer and Parker asked if he wanted to play with us. The computer
>
> Parker and I were playing together, Draven came in to ask me for help on
fixing was taking longer than I expected so I told them to go ahead and play
without me.
> Can you play video games cooperatively instead of competitively?Potter Lego board game, I'm not sure how you could make that a cooperative
>
> I'm going to think up ways to make this work. We were playing the Harry
game, but I'm sure I'll think of something.
We also play Fluxx a lot, I guess we could work on completing as many goals
as possible as a team, that might work. Any other ideas?
Tina
--
Unschooling Untitled <http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com> (
http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com )
Living an unschooled lifestyle, one experience at a time!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jennifer.neary
My daughter Pearl was the same way. She is only now, at 13, starting to be able to enjoy playing board games. She is the kid who would make up ways for competitive games to not have winners and losers. For example, she decided that in Battleship, it was good to get the holes in your boat filled up, because it repaired the boat and kept it from sinking.
It wasn't that Pearl was a "bad sport," she just did not enjoy the competitive nature of most board games. She felt bad for whoever lost.
Once I figured that out, here are some of the things we did:
We just didn't play board games, we did other stuff. I'd offer to play board games with my board game loving son when Pearl was asleep or otherwise occupied.
Invited her, but did not push her to play, ever. I didn't want her to feel unwelcome to play, but I didn't want her to feel pressured to play.
Thought of ways to make competitive games non-competitive. It was creative and fun to do this. This worked with games beside board games too.
For instance, we had a Pokemon birthday party once (Pearl and her brother Cas have birthdays that are four days apart, so they always had one big party together.) Pearl always disliked party games at birthdays because there were usually winners and losers and prizes awarded. We came up with a list of games and figured out how to make them noncompetitive. Instead of musical chairs, we had musical squares. We laid out squares of fabric on the floor. When the music stopped, you stood on a square; more than one kid could stand on the same square. We took one square away for each turn, so by the end of the game the kids were all trying to stand on one fabric square. It was funny and fun and getting everyone on to that one square was something all the kids worked on together to achieve. We had an obstacle course. We hid the goodie bags so every kid had to find theirs. We did a ton of activities, not one of which involved competition. The kids had a GREAT time and the moms were all saying how nice it was.
Bought noncompetitive games. Here's one good site: http://www.familypastimes.com/index.html
Not keep score. We still do this. We play Apples to Apples until we feel we've had enough. We don't care who has the most cards at the end. We play Whoonu but we don't add up our chips at the end. Pearl and I play Scrabble or Boggle without keeping score. Lots of games can be played without keeping score.
Some of our best family times together have been doing things that we made up or found out about while trying to come up with noncompetitive games and activities. "Hide with the hider" is one great example. We play this on winter nights when it's dark. One person hides somewhere in the dark house. The searchers all have flashlights. When you find the person who is hiding, you hide with them, until the last person finds the whole group. That game has become a family favorite.
What you want to avoid for sure is putting Dravin in situations where there's a good chance that he might lose. And I would suggest not talking to him about being a good sport, telling him that not everyone can win every time etc. etc. I'm not accusing you of doing this; it's just that that is what I remember hearing when I was a kid, and I think it's still the conventional response today. Kids already know they won't win all the time, but that doesn't mean you don't get bummed out when you lose.
Jennie
It wasn't that Pearl was a "bad sport," she just did not enjoy the competitive nature of most board games. She felt bad for whoever lost.
Once I figured that out, here are some of the things we did:
We just didn't play board games, we did other stuff. I'd offer to play board games with my board game loving son when Pearl was asleep or otherwise occupied.
Invited her, but did not push her to play, ever. I didn't want her to feel unwelcome to play, but I didn't want her to feel pressured to play.
Thought of ways to make competitive games non-competitive. It was creative and fun to do this. This worked with games beside board games too.
For instance, we had a Pokemon birthday party once (Pearl and her brother Cas have birthdays that are four days apart, so they always had one big party together.) Pearl always disliked party games at birthdays because there were usually winners and losers and prizes awarded. We came up with a list of games and figured out how to make them noncompetitive. Instead of musical chairs, we had musical squares. We laid out squares of fabric on the floor. When the music stopped, you stood on a square; more than one kid could stand on the same square. We took one square away for each turn, so by the end of the game the kids were all trying to stand on one fabric square. It was funny and fun and getting everyone on to that one square was something all the kids worked on together to achieve. We had an obstacle course. We hid the goodie bags so every kid had to find theirs. We did a ton of activities, not one of which involved competition. The kids had a GREAT time and the moms were all saying how nice it was.
Bought noncompetitive games. Here's one good site: http://www.familypastimes.com/index.html
Not keep score. We still do this. We play Apples to Apples until we feel we've had enough. We don't care who has the most cards at the end. We play Whoonu but we don't add up our chips at the end. Pearl and I play Scrabble or Boggle without keeping score. Lots of games can be played without keeping score.
Some of our best family times together have been doing things that we made up or found out about while trying to come up with noncompetitive games and activities. "Hide with the hider" is one great example. We play this on winter nights when it's dark. One person hides somewhere in the dark house. The searchers all have flashlights. When you find the person who is hiding, you hide with them, until the last person finds the whole group. That game has become a family favorite.
What you want to avoid for sure is putting Dravin in situations where there's a good chance that he might lose. And I would suggest not talking to him about being a good sport, telling him that not everyone can win every time etc. etc. I'm not accusing you of doing this; it's just that that is what I remember hearing when I was a kid, and I think it's still the conventional response today. Kids already know they won't win all the time, but that doesn't mean you don't get bummed out when you lose.
Jennie
--- In [email protected], Tina Tarbutton <tina.tarbutton@...> wrote:
>
>
> Another issue is the way he reacts when he loses. He doesn't often play games with us and when he does he's said he doesn't want us to let him win.
> However, when he loses he is devastated and gets very hurtful. He also
> does this when playing video games with people in person (but not so much
> online). He's sent friends home before because they beat him in a game.
> Most people don't want to play video games with him because they know it
> will turn out badly, however it's Draven's favorite thing to do.
>
> I know there is another way to handle this, I'm just not sure what it is
> right now and I could use some other insight.
>
>
Schuyler
Simon and Linnaea don't play to win. Sometimes it makes Monopoly almost
impossible to play, but they give up their land to others or pay off someone
else's debt. When Simon was little he and I were outside playing Pokemon Master
Trainer board game and another little boy came over and asked if he could play.
Simon lost a role to capture one of the pokemon he wanted and when I said
something like "well, that's the rules" he got upset, tipped over the game and
stormed inside. The other little boy asked why I didn't just let Simon have the
pokemon. I couldn't come up with a reason. I stopped worrying about playing by
the rules that day. If it is just family, if it is a game with no one trying to
win, it is easy to make it about the fun of being together playing a game and
not so much about winning. Bananagrams is brilliant for that. I'm really fast at
seeing words and figuring out ways to lay them out, Linnaea not so much. So I
help her as long as she wants me to. And she helps me if she sees something in
my letters.
We also play a fair number of games that are fast to turn over, like Set or 5
crowns or Blink. Games that you can play a series of and not have who won each
game be a particular point of interest, or even who got best 4 out of 7 or
whatever. Apples to Apples doesn't have to be about winning. Cluedo is kind of
fun to guess before you really know. Labyrinth is an easy one to be helpful
with. Blokus is good for that, too.
Winning isn't the reason I tend to play a game. Nor is following the rules. I'm
doing it for the fun of it and the pleasure of hanging out with Simon or Linnaea
or David.
Maybe next time, try and invite him to play a game that can have a less
competitive reinterpretation of the rules. And if that isn't really possible,
see if there is something else that can be done in the intervening moments. Some
folks need time to get to the point where they can handle losing well. Some
folks never get there. I can remember getting quite irritated at losing at
Scrabble to David on more than one occasion. What really helped me was seeing
why I was playing the game. I wouldn't discuss that with Draven, except in the
process of trying to figure out how to make a game more fun to play.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Tina Tarbutton <tina.tarbutton@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 20 March, 2011 11:43:27
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Reacting to words and "sore" losing
fixing was taking longer than I expected so I told them to go ahead and play
without me.
game, but I'm sure I'll think of something.
We also play Fluxx a lot, I guess we could work on completing as many goals
as possible as a team, that might work. Any other ideas?
Tina
--
Unschooling Untitled <http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com> (
http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com )
Living an unschooled lifestyle, one experience at a time!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
impossible to play, but they give up their land to others or pay off someone
else's debt. When Simon was little he and I were outside playing Pokemon Master
Trainer board game and another little boy came over and asked if he could play.
Simon lost a role to capture one of the pokemon he wanted and when I said
something like "well, that's the rules" he got upset, tipped over the game and
stormed inside. The other little boy asked why I didn't just let Simon have the
pokemon. I couldn't come up with a reason. I stopped worrying about playing by
the rules that day. If it is just family, if it is a game with no one trying to
win, it is easy to make it about the fun of being together playing a game and
not so much about winning. Bananagrams is brilliant for that. I'm really fast at
seeing words and figuring out ways to lay them out, Linnaea not so much. So I
help her as long as she wants me to. And she helps me if she sees something in
my letters.
We also play a fair number of games that are fast to turn over, like Set or 5
crowns or Blink. Games that you can play a series of and not have who won each
game be a particular point of interest, or even who got best 4 out of 7 or
whatever. Apples to Apples doesn't have to be about winning. Cluedo is kind of
fun to guess before you really know. Labyrinth is an easy one to be helpful
with. Blokus is good for that, too.
Winning isn't the reason I tend to play a game. Nor is following the rules. I'm
doing it for the fun of it and the pleasure of hanging out with Simon or Linnaea
or David.
Maybe next time, try and invite him to play a game that can have a less
competitive reinterpretation of the rules. And if that isn't really possible,
see if there is something else that can be done in the intervening moments. Some
folks need time to get to the point where they can handle losing well. Some
folks never get there. I can remember getting quite irritated at losing at
Scrabble to David on more than one occasion. What really helped me was seeing
why I was playing the game. I wouldn't discuss that with Draven, except in the
process of trying to figure out how to make a game more fun to play.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Tina Tarbutton <tina.tarbutton@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 20 March, 2011 11:43:27
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Reacting to words and "sore" losing
> Who asked to play the board game? Was it Parker or was it Draven?his computer and Parker asked if he wanted to play with us. The computer
>
> Parker and I were playing together, Draven came in to ask me for help on
fixing was taking longer than I expected so I told them to go ahead and play
without me.
> Can you play video games cooperatively instead of competitively?Potter Lego board game, I'm not sure how you could make that a cooperative
>
> I'm going to think up ways to make this work. We were playing the Harry
game, but I'm sure I'll think of something.
We also play Fluxx a lot, I guess we could work on completing as many goals
as possible as a team, that might work. Any other ideas?
Tina
--
Unschooling Untitled <http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com> (
http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com )
Living an unschooled lifestyle, one experience at a time!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Parker and I were playing together, Draven came in to ask me for help on
his computer and Parker asked if he wanted to play with us. The computer
fixing was taking longer than I expected so I told them to go ahead and play
without me.-=-
There might have been an extra layer of resentment because he was invited to play as a third of three, and ended up playing with a step parent (I'm guessing), who beat him. If he expressed resentment that was worded in a way he learned from you, the mom, I think you (and your partner) need to suck that up graciously.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
his computer and Parker asked if he wanted to play with us. The computer
fixing was taking longer than I expected so I told them to go ahead and play
without me.-=-
There might have been an extra layer of resentment because he was invited to play as a third of three, and ended up playing with a step parent (I'm guessing), who beat him. If he expressed resentment that was worded in a way he learned from you, the mom, I think you (and your partner) need to suck that up graciously.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rinelle
From: "Schuyler" <s.waynforth@...>
were children, we played monopoly just like this. We would loan each other
money, and overlook debts. I don't think we ever 'finished' a game of
monopoly, and there were certainly no winners, but we sure had a lot of fun!
win every game if that is what they needed. That I didn't have to teach her
some rules about not being able to win every time, or that life isn't fair,
or how to be a good loser. I realised that I could do what I really wanted
to, and just let her enjoy the game the way it was fun for her.
DH and I will often in a card game both be sitting on winning hands, and be
throwing away winning cards so that DD can win. She still plays with an
open hand (she hasn't worked out how to hold the cards so we can't see yet),
so it's really easy to only challenge her if we know she can defend etc.
This isn't to say that she always has to win. Sometimes, she makes it quite
explicitly clear that she wants DH or I to win, and will hold back her own
cards to achieve this. Whichever way it works out, we all have fun, and
that is why we were playing in the first place.
Tamara
> Simon and Linnaea don't play to win. Sometimes it makes Monopoly almostThis comment brings back so many memories. When my younger sister and I
> impossible to play, but they give up their land to others or pay off
> someone
> else's debt.
were children, we played monopoly just like this. We would loan each other
money, and overlook debts. I don't think we ever 'finished' a game of
monopoly, and there were certainly no winners, but we sure had a lot of fun!
> The other little boy asked why I didn't just let Simon have theI think it was on this forum that I first realised it was OK to let my child
> pokemon. I couldn't come up with a reason. I stopped worrying about
> playing by
> the rules that day. If it is just family, if it is a game with no one
> trying to
> win, it is easy to make it about the fun of being together playing a game
> and
> not so much about winning. Bananagrams is brilliant for that. I'm really
> fast at
> seeing words and figuring out ways to lay them out, Linnaea not so much.
> So I
> help her as long as she wants me to. And she helps me if she sees
> something in
> my letters.
win every game if that is what they needed. That I didn't have to teach her
some rules about not being able to win every time, or that life isn't fair,
or how to be a good loser. I realised that I could do what I really wanted
to, and just let her enjoy the game the way it was fun for her.
DH and I will often in a card game both be sitting on winning hands, and be
throwing away winning cards so that DD can win. She still plays with an
open hand (she hasn't worked out how to hold the cards so we can't see yet),
so it's really easy to only challenge her if we know she can defend etc.
This isn't to say that she always has to win. Sometimes, she makes it quite
explicitly clear that she wants DH or I to win, and will hold back her own
cards to achieve this. Whichever way it works out, we all have fun, and
that is why we were playing in the first place.
Tamara
plaidpanties666
If I'm playing a game with Mo (9), I'll ask if she wants hints, or I'll offer to play with a "handicap" so that she's likely to win. It doesn't feel like "letting her win" (to her) so she's okay with that. Sometimes, though, she'll flat out tell me she wants to win and I should let her. That's fine, too.
When Ray was younger we'd play Battleship by letting him see the opponents ships at the beginning of play as a way of creating a handicap. Of we'd let him "take back" moves in strategy games.
---Meredith
When Ray was younger we'd play Battleship by letting him see the opponents ships at the beginning of play as a way of creating a handicap. Of we'd let him "take back" moves in strategy games.
>>This is a very hurtful phrase toIf she can step back from that and hear his frustration rather than her own anxiety and discomfort, that would help make things more peaceful. Even if she can't step away from her reaction just now, she could find another way of responding. "I'm sorry you're frustrated" would be better than "I don't like that." Depending on personalities, it could be better to say "I love you" and change the subject.
> Parker and it's really the only thing we don't like him saying. She said
> (calmly) "I don't like that" and he says "I don't care".
---Meredith
Tina Tarbutton
I appreciate all of the comments about the games. There have been a lot of
things I haven't thought of, and once Parker is back home (she's away for a
week) we'll discuss a lot of it.
A few things from a few different posts I want to respond to.
things I haven't thought of, and once Parker is back home (she's away for a
week) we'll discuss a lot of it.
A few things from a few different posts I want to respond to.
On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> There might have been an extra layer of resentment because he was invited
> to play as a third of three, and ended up playing with a step parent (I'm
> guessing), who beat him. If he expressed resentment that was worded in a way
> he learned from you, the mom, I think you (and your partner) need to suck
> that up graciously.
>
This was a major ah-ha moment for me. I have a step parent who I'm living
with again. According to my mom we were extremely close when I was little
and I spent a long while calling him dad, however for as long as I can
remember I really haven't liked him and have always called him (even as an
adult) "Mr. Lee". I think I often forget that Parker is the step parent,
and that's both a hard role for her to be in, and a hard role for Draven to
deal with sometimes. He calls her mom most of the time and he's never made
the "you're not my parent" type comments. When Parker says something about
being the step mom, he says you're my mom, not my step mom. However there
are probably times when he does feel like the step kid and like she's the
step mom, and that's a difficult place for him to be in. Thanks for
pointing that out.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 1:35 PM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...>wrote:
> Even if she can't step away from her reaction just now, she could find
> another way of responding. "I'm sorry you're frustrated" would be better
> than "I don't like that." Depending on personalities, it could be better to
> say "I love you" and change the subject.
>
>
Another ah-ha moment. I had already mentioned to her that I thought making
a big deal out of it was giving the words more power and she agreed, but I
think reacting this way is even better. I'm worried that "I love you" would
be responded to negatively in that moment, but "I'm sorry your frustrated"
or some version of that would probably work well.
Thanks a ton everyone!
Tina
--
Unschooling Untitled <http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com> (
http://www.unschoolinguntitled.com )
Living an unschooled lifestyle, one experience at a time!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]