Could someone please clarify for me?
truth_seeking_mommy
What differentiates this list from the Always Unschooled list and the Radical Unschooling list?
Thanks so much!
-Monika
p.s. Hi Shira, nice to see you here, you probably know me on KM under my alias name (JB)
Thanks so much!
-Monika
p.s. Hi Shira, nice to see you here, you probably know me on KM under my alias name (JB)
Sandra Dodd
-=-What differentiates this list from the Always Unschooled list and the Radical Unschooling list?-=-
There are many more unschooling lists than the three you're comparing, but both of those others were started by someone whose children were younger, and who didn't want more experienced unschoolers questioning or commenting on her beliefs. Always Unschooled focussed on the idea that it WAS possible to unschool someone who was just born, or years from compulsory school attendance age. "the Radical Unschooling list" was called radicalunschoolingLOA or some such for a while and then the name was changed to attract a larger and more general audience. Not in an honest or good way, but to mask the Law of Attraction element of it.
The Law of Attraction has absolutely nothing on earth to do with unschooling. It's not helpful to unschooling. Someone who once wrote "some of us have gone beyond John Holt and Sandra Dodd runs that list and the name was changed in hopes of it appearing to be THE list on radical unschooling. Not so.
Always Unschooled is not (I don't think) still moderated by the original moderators. When someone starts a list and doesn't stick with it, the list's focus and tone often are diluted or changed, and so it's not what was original intended.
My children were always unschooled. At 24, 22 and 19, they never were enrolled in any school, nor did we ever do school at home. By the definition of that list, though, perhaps, they weren't "always unschooled." And by the definitions of that list, someone who unschooled from birth to four, then "unschooled for four years." Because that proposed definition was disputed by me and others here, the other list was created.
People should be on whichever list they like, or on two or three or five, if they want to be. Information from more than one source is good. At least one of the lists above discourages people from exploring other sources.
This list was started because on unschooling-dotcom (which now exists as unschoolingdiscussion@yahoogroups, and which was revived with that other name by other people later) there were people who made a habit of disruption and bullshit, and I created this list so that those who were rational and thoughtful and didn't love trouble could discuss unschooling in a serious manner. Many people stayed on both lists (including me, after a time).
Unschooling basics split from this list (or maybe from unschoolingdiscussion, of which I'm 1/3 owner), but not in a negative way at all--as a place for newer unschoolers to go for more basic information, after which (the original plan went) they would be sent here. But people get used to and enjoy the others they're reading and dealing with, and so some people stayed there for years and didn't come over here. Unschooling basics, too, went through other moderators from time to time, but at least one of the originals is still moderating.
This list will be ten years old later this year, and this post will be about # 59,892 unless someone posts quickly before me.
A few other lists split off of unschoolingdiscussion, but non grew large and flourished.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There are many more unschooling lists than the three you're comparing, but both of those others were started by someone whose children were younger, and who didn't want more experienced unschoolers questioning or commenting on her beliefs. Always Unschooled focussed on the idea that it WAS possible to unschool someone who was just born, or years from compulsory school attendance age. "the Radical Unschooling list" was called radicalunschoolingLOA or some such for a while and then the name was changed to attract a larger and more general audience. Not in an honest or good way, but to mask the Law of Attraction element of it.
The Law of Attraction has absolutely nothing on earth to do with unschooling. It's not helpful to unschooling. Someone who once wrote "some of us have gone beyond John Holt and Sandra Dodd runs that list and the name was changed in hopes of it appearing to be THE list on radical unschooling. Not so.
Always Unschooled is not (I don't think) still moderated by the original moderators. When someone starts a list and doesn't stick with it, the list's focus and tone often are diluted or changed, and so it's not what was original intended.
My children were always unschooled. At 24, 22 and 19, they never were enrolled in any school, nor did we ever do school at home. By the definition of that list, though, perhaps, they weren't "always unschooled." And by the definitions of that list, someone who unschooled from birth to four, then "unschooled for four years." Because that proposed definition was disputed by me and others here, the other list was created.
People should be on whichever list they like, or on two or three or five, if they want to be. Information from more than one source is good. At least one of the lists above discourages people from exploring other sources.
This list was started because on unschooling-dotcom (which now exists as unschoolingdiscussion@yahoogroups, and which was revived with that other name by other people later) there were people who made a habit of disruption and bullshit, and I created this list so that those who were rational and thoughtful and didn't love trouble could discuss unschooling in a serious manner. Many people stayed on both lists (including me, after a time).
Unschooling basics split from this list (or maybe from unschoolingdiscussion, of which I'm 1/3 owner), but not in a negative way at all--as a place for newer unschoolers to go for more basic information, after which (the original plan went) they would be sent here. But people get used to and enjoy the others they're reading and dealing with, and so some people stayed there for years and didn't come over here. Unschooling basics, too, went through other moderators from time to time, but at least one of the originals is still moderating.
This list will be ten years old later this year, and this post will be about # 59,892 unless someone posts quickly before me.
A few other lists split off of unschoolingdiscussion, but non grew large and flourished.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
truth_seeking_mommy
Thank you Sandra,
I am looking for a list that discusses unschooling from a sort of theory-application basis, but also a list that offers support, which I am sure this list does not.
Could you recommend a list that does offer support?
thank you,
Monika
I am looking for a list that discusses unschooling from a sort of theory-application basis, but also a list that offers support, which I am sure this list does not.
Could you recommend a list that does offer support?
thank you,
Monika
Sandra Dodd
-=-Could you recommend a list that does offer support?-=-
Perhaps if you could expand on what you mean by support someone could advise you.
There are people who monitor this list to find those they believe are unhappy and they invite them to another list (not named in my earlier post), so I'm sure you'll be invited to that one.
The support this list provides is support in understanding unschooling, and support for their children's future peace and happiness.
Is there another kind of support you prefer?
It's interesting that you would ask on this list for advice about a better list. :-) It seems designed to be a quiet, nearly-courteous insult, but that's okay. I think maybe you stay on this list you'll feel differently about it after a while.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Perhaps if you could expand on what you mean by support someone could advise you.
There are people who monitor this list to find those they believe are unhappy and they invite them to another list (not named in my earlier post), so I'm sure you'll be invited to that one.
The support this list provides is support in understanding unschooling, and support for their children's future peace and happiness.
Is there another kind of support you prefer?
It's interesting that you would ask on this list for advice about a better list. :-) It seems designed to be a quiet, nearly-courteous insult, but that's okay. I think maybe you stay on this list you'll feel differently about it after a while.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
truth_seeking_mommy
Well, no I was hoping for both. Since I am new to unschooling, I feel I am in need of support in terms of figuring out how unschooling would work for my family but as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather than offering advice to individual families as to how they can incorporate unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of being.
I do think ideas are very important, but at this point I am needing both.
I do think ideas are very important, but at this point I am needing both.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Could you recommend a list that does offer support?-=-n e
>
> Perhaps if you could expand on what you mean by support someone could advise you.
>
> There are people who monitor this list to find those they believe are unhappy and they invite them to another list (not named in my earlier post), so I'm sure you'll be invited to that one.
>
> The support this list provides is support in understanding unschooling, and support for their children's future peace and happiness.
> Is there another kind of support you prefer?
>
> It's interesting that you would ask on this list for advice about a better list. :-) It seems designed to be a quiet, nearly-courteous insult, but that's okay. I think maybe you stay on this list you'll feel differently about it after a while.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 21, 2011, at 11:25 AM, truth_seeking_mommy wrote:
understand the inner workings, the reasons why unschoolers make the
choices they do.
In the process, list members do often offer how they translated the
ideas to work for their own families. And people will often suggest
specific ideas for you to try. ("Please do try this at home!" ;-)
But foremost the list is to help people understand so they can make
better choices all on their own. Ideally people should understand so
well they don't need the list anymore! But there's always something
new to learn, some new way of looking at old ideas so lots of people
who enjoy this style of list stick around.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather thanActually it does offer both. The main goal is helping people
> offering advice to individual families as to how they can
> incorporate unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of
> being.
understand the inner workings, the reasons why unschoolers make the
choices they do.
In the process, list members do often offer how they translated the
ideas to work for their own families. And people will often suggest
specific ideas for you to try. ("Please do try this at home!" ;-)
But foremost the list is to help people understand so they can make
better choices all on their own. Ideally people should understand so
well they don't need the list anymore! But there's always something
new to learn, some new way of looking at old ideas so lots of people
who enjoy this style of list stick around.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Ideas are all we can really offer. Ideas can include practical ideas. Often lots
of practical ideas are offered forward. This list is very much about the
practice of unschooling while also discussing the theory.
Presumably, while everyone is unique, most of us have lots in common.
Schuyler
________________________________
Well, no I was hoping for both. Since I am new to unschooling, I feel I am in
need of support in terms of figuring out how unschooling would work for my
family but as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather than
offering advice to individual families as to how they can incorporate
unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of being.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of practical ideas are offered forward. This list is very much about the
practice of unschooling while also discussing the theory.
Presumably, while everyone is unique, most of us have lots in common.
Schuyler
________________________________
Well, no I was hoping for both. Since I am new to unschooling, I feel I am in
need of support in terms of figuring out how unschooling would work for my
family but as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather than
offering advice to individual families as to how they can incorporate
unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of being.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
---- Since I am new to unschooling, I feel I am in
need of support in terms of figuring out how unschooling would work for my
family but as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather than
offering advice to individual families as to how they can incorporate
unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of being------
Could you perhaps be confusing "support" with ideas/"advice"?
If you and your family are having trouble with unschooling, this is a GREAT place to ask for thoughts on new ways of looking at and responding to whatever it is. That's the kind of support you'll find here--support for seeing that:
"Until a person stops doing the things that keep unschooling from working, unschooling cannot begin to work."
("The School in My Head" http://sandradodd.com/schoolinmyhead)
You're not likely to hear the other kind of support though. The kind where people say, "It's okay, you're doing the best you can." That doesn't help people shift; that doesn't encourage change.
If you want to shift, to change, you're in the right place.
Brie
need of support in terms of figuring out how unschooling would work for my
family but as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather than
offering advice to individual families as to how they can incorporate
unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of being------
Could you perhaps be confusing "support" with ideas/"advice"?
If you and your family are having trouble with unschooling, this is a GREAT place to ask for thoughts on new ways of looking at and responding to whatever it is. That's the kind of support you'll find here--support for seeing that:
"Until a person stops doing the things that keep unschooling from working, unschooling cannot begin to work."
("The School in My Head" http://sandradodd.com/schoolinmyhead)
You're not likely to hear the other kind of support though. The kind where people say, "It's okay, you're doing the best you can." That doesn't help people shift; that doesn't encourage change.
If you want to shift, to change, you're in the right place.
Brie
julesmiel
--- In [email protected], "sheeboo2" <brmino@...> wrote:
Something I do or say may be an influencing factor in someone else's change. I think when people task themselves with bringing about change in another person, though, things can start to feel heavy handed.
I have an immediate reaction of resistance to perceived pressure.
I see this in my son, too. That tends to inhibit the rate of change.
Julie
> You're not likely to hear the other kind of support though. The kind > where people say, "It's okay, you're doing the best you can." ThatI see this differently.
> doesn't help people shift; that doesn't encourage change.
Something I do or say may be an influencing factor in someone else's change. I think when people task themselves with bringing about change in another person, though, things can start to feel heavy handed.
I have an immediate reaction of resistance to perceived pressure.
I see this in my son, too. That tends to inhibit the rate of change.
Julie
k
>>>Ideas are all we can really offer. Ideas can include practical ideas. Often lots of practical ideas are offered forward. This list is very much about thepractice of unschooling while also discussing the theory.<<<
I agree. Very recently, Joyce Fetteroll compared the Always Learning
list to a Zen center
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/59756), a
"center" where one can see unschooling in a less diluted fashion than
is perhaps even possible in real life. It's good practice I think.
Someone responded to Joyce that one can't practice unschooling on a
list. I think in some important ways, the whole point of the list is
to try on ideas on the list and to put ideas in a light that IS real
since the posts themselves are real dialogue happening between actual
unschoolers. Not every post is sterling or the best idea, but the
interplay, the back-and-forth nature of this list, has always been
about how unschooling has worked in the round in actual unschooler's
lives and families. That's a lot of practice and practicality and
support, which is individualized to a pretty big degree. For this
individual, it has been.
And I would consider mine to be a difficult case, really. When Deb
says "Ideas are all we can really offer," maybe she considers the
experience of unschoolers to be ideas. Ok. Whatever we call ideas, the
experiences of unschoolers as described on this list are continuously
illuminating for me on my individual path to understanding how to do
this unschooling thing. :)
I DO think the list is about practicing something of the principles in
order to take something solid from ideas to try in our own 3D world at
home. Like Joyce says, do try at home. ;)
Each reader can take what they see on the list and decide if it's
something that would work in their own life and family.
~Katherine
Mirjam
Keep reading this list :). Just stay for a couple of months and just read and you will find out how this list works. Practise Sandra's famous "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
Read Joyce's http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ and Sandra's websites www.sandradodd.com and read Sandra's book: the big book of unschooling.
I find the unschoolingbasics a very helpful list too.
"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
:)
Groetjes, Mirjam :o), mv Adam (9), Boaz (6) en Levi (3).
http://www.leermeer.blogspot.com
Read Joyce's http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ and Sandra's websites www.sandradodd.com and read Sandra's book: the big book of unschooling.
I find the unschoolingbasics a very helpful list too.
"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
:)
Groetjes, Mirjam :o), mv Adam (9), Boaz (6) en Levi (3).
http://www.leermeer.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], "sheeboo2" <brmino@...> wrote:
>
> ---- Since I am new to unschooling, I feel I am in
> need of support in terms of figuring out how unschooling would work for my
> family but as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather than
> offering advice to individual families as to how they can incorporate
> unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of being------
>
>
> Could you perhaps be confusing "support" with ideas/"advice"?
>
> If you and your family are having trouble with unschooling, this is a GREAT place to ask for thoughts on new ways of looking at and responding to whatever it is. That's the kind of support you'll find here--support for seeing that:
>
> "Until a person stops doing the things that keep unschooling from working, unschooling cannot begin to work."
>
> ("The School in My Head" http://sandradodd.com/schoolinmyhead)
>
> You're not likely to hear the other kind of support though. The kind where people say, "It's okay, you're doing the best you can." That doesn't help people shift; that doesn't encourage change.
>
> If you want to shift, to change, you're in the right place.
>
> Brie
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 21, 2011, at 1:28 PM, julesmiel wrote:
that someone needs, the source is irrelevant.
But some people choose to go somewhere to work on changing, to do it
in a systematic, deliberate way. It's much faster than leaving it to
chance. The key, though, is someone *choosing* the change.
consent in ways the experts have decided they should change.
But when people choose to change in a particular way and choose a
place that offers to help them change in that particular way, that's
an entirely different atmosphere. This list is like that. If there's
anyone here who is resistant to change, this list won't be a
comfortable fit.
sought out.
But resisting change they've sought would be getting in their own way.
Fighting against change in a place that's offering to help people
change is disruptive to the people who have come to change.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Something I do or say may be an influencing factor in someone else'sThat's true everywhere in life. If a bit of information wanders by
> change.
that someone needs, the source is irrelevant.
But some people choose to go somewhere to work on changing, to do it
in a systematic, deliberate way. It's much faster than leaving it to
chance. The key, though, is someone *choosing* the change.
> I think when people task themselves with bringing about change inLike public school where the purpose is to change kids without their
> another person, though, things can start to feel heavy handed.
consent in ways the experts have decided they should change.
But when people choose to change in a particular way and choose a
place that offers to help them change in that particular way, that's
an entirely different atmosphere. This list is like that. If there's
anyone here who is resistant to change, this list won't be a
comfortable fit.
> I have an immediate reaction of resistance to perceived pressure.It's a healthy reaction for someone to resist change they haven't
> I see this in my son, too. That tends to inhibit the rate of change.
sought out.
But resisting change they've sought would be getting in their own way.
Fighting against change in a place that's offering to help people
change is disruptive to the people who have come to change.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
----I think when people task themselves with bringing about change in another person,
though, things can start to feel heavy handed.----
Yea, that's often called proselytizing or staging an intervention. I'm not sure what about my response led you there. I'm pretty certain by now that the only thing I can change is myself and my reactions. I learned that by unschooling.
In a *discussion,* which this list exists for, it seems entirely besides the point, which I see as being: "what helps unschooling," to talk about things that don't help, that make unschooling more difficult, further away, if not out of reach completely.
If someone asked me a question, or asks me how to do something I know how to do, say tie shoelaces, I'd show them what I know---wait a minute! This actually comes back to your other comments about answering your son's questions with "I don't know"!
Many of the posters here DO KNOW what helps unschooling be successful! They share that information when *asked.* I assume that when someone does ask, they want a clear answer, or as clear as possible.
Unschooling isn't a gnome-quest. With unschooling, there are very specific ways to find what you're looking for.
Brie
though, things can start to feel heavy handed.----
Yea, that's often called proselytizing or staging an intervention. I'm not sure what about my response led you there. I'm pretty certain by now that the only thing I can change is myself and my reactions. I learned that by unschooling.
In a *discussion,* which this list exists for, it seems entirely besides the point, which I see as being: "what helps unschooling," to talk about things that don't help, that make unschooling more difficult, further away, if not out of reach completely.
If someone asked me a question, or asks me how to do something I know how to do, say tie shoelaces, I'd show them what I know---wait a minute! This actually comes back to your other comments about answering your son's questions with "I don't know"!
Many of the posters here DO KNOW what helps unschooling be successful! They share that information when *asked.* I assume that when someone does ask, they want a clear answer, or as clear as possible.
Unschooling isn't a gnome-quest. With unschooling, there are very specific ways to find what you're looking for.
Brie
Stephanie LaBarge
-=-I think maybe you stay on this list you'll feel differently about it after a
while.-=-
I have been on this list for almost a year now, and I have also been on other
lists. I have to say that this one has been the most helpful to me in learning
to be more mindful with my children and make life with them more full, joyful
and peaceful. I really appreciate the incredible job done by the moderators at
keeping it focused on unschooling and what makes unschooling work. At times
when responses to what people wrote seemed harsh, but after being around for a
while I have come to appreciate that because what may seem harsh to a newcomer
really is preventing harm to others by not allowing things to come to the list
that are not helpful to unschooling. There are many wise seasoned unschoolers
whose experience and advice is invaluable, and their thoughts and comments are
so consistent., and their desire to really help families unschool well is
genuine and without thought of personal gain. That is support you can trust.
I have been mostly listening, watching and waiting up until now, and it really
is wise counsel. I am thankful for it!!
Steph L.
wife of 17 years to Dave
Mommy to Lauren (10) Sophi (9) and Hallie (6)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
while.-=-
I have been on this list for almost a year now, and I have also been on other
lists. I have to say that this one has been the most helpful to me in learning
to be more mindful with my children and make life with them more full, joyful
and peaceful. I really appreciate the incredible job done by the moderators at
keeping it focused on unschooling and what makes unschooling work. At times
when responses to what people wrote seemed harsh, but after being around for a
while I have come to appreciate that because what may seem harsh to a newcomer
really is preventing harm to others by not allowing things to come to the list
that are not helpful to unschooling. There are many wise seasoned unschoolers
whose experience and advice is invaluable, and their thoughts and comments are
so consistent., and their desire to really help families unschool well is
genuine and without thought of personal gain. That is support you can trust.
I have been mostly listening, watching and waiting up until now, and it really
is wise counsel. I am thankful for it!!
Steph L.
wife of 17 years to Dave
Mommy to Lauren (10) Sophi (9) and Hallie (6)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aldq75
When Deb says "Ideas are all we can really offer," maybe she considers the
experience of unschoolers to be ideas. Ok. Whatever we call ideas, the
experiences of unschoolers as described on this list are continuously
illuminating for me on my individual path to understanding how to do
this unschooling thing. :)
---
Before I heard the name Sandra Dodd, real life interactions with mothers and families introduced us to the idea of "whole life" unschooling. One of them mentioned this list, so I joined and I read a bit. I asked a few questions in one of Sandra's online chats. I started examining my parenting and stopped reading for a few months while I tried new approaches and watched for changes (and spent more time with unschooling families in our area).
I came back to the list and started reading again when I felt like I was starting to "get" unschooling. I have learned a lot from the sharing of experiences on this list and often have "A HA!" moments when reading. Joyce's website (http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/) and Sandra's website have helped tremendously. Specific examples of what other unschooling families are doing (or did in the past) work well for me and I've found plenty of those here.
Andrea Q
experience of unschoolers to be ideas. Ok. Whatever we call ideas, the
experiences of unschoolers as described on this list are continuously
illuminating for me on my individual path to understanding how to do
this unschooling thing. :)
---
Before I heard the name Sandra Dodd, real life interactions with mothers and families introduced us to the idea of "whole life" unschooling. One of them mentioned this list, so I joined and I read a bit. I asked a few questions in one of Sandra's online chats. I started examining my parenting and stopped reading for a few months while I tried new approaches and watched for changes (and spent more time with unschooling families in our area).
I came back to the list and started reading again when I felt like I was starting to "get" unschooling. I have learned a lot from the sharing of experiences on this list and often have "A HA!" moments when reading. Joyce's website (http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/) and Sandra's website have helped tremendously. Specific examples of what other unschooling families are doing (or did in the past) work well for me and I've found plenty of those here.
Andrea Q
plaidpanties666
It depends on what you mean by "support" - a lot of times that can come down to the personality of the main writers, too, and how their writing style comes across to you.
Here are a couple different pages of resources for you to check out, the first includes various religious lists as well as lists grouped by location:
http://sandradodd.com/world
The email lists are down toward the bottom of this next page - at the top are a bunch of blogs, which can be another source of information and support of a different kind:
http://enjoylifeunschooling.com/resources/
The Radical Unschoolers Network includes discussion forums similar to this list (with many of the same writers) but also "groups" arranged by topic, including a "support" group:
http://familyrun.ning.com/
---Meredith
Here are a couple different pages of resources for you to check out, the first includes various religious lists as well as lists grouped by location:
http://sandradodd.com/world
The email lists are down toward the bottom of this next page - at the top are a bunch of blogs, which can be another source of information and support of a different kind:
http://enjoylifeunschooling.com/resources/
The Radical Unschoolers Network includes discussion forums similar to this list (with many of the same writers) but also "groups" arranged by topic, including a "support" group:
http://familyrun.ning.com/
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-I feel I am in need of support in terms of figuring out how unschooling would work for my family but as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather than offering advice to individual families as to how they can incorporate unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of being.-=-
This list talks about particular situations as a starting place all the time. If you're interested in unschooling, we can definitely help. If you're interested in something other than unschooling, it wouldn't be a good use of the list.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This list talks about particular situations as a starting place all the time. If you're interested in unschooling, we can definitely help. If you're interested in something other than unschooling, it wouldn't be a good use of the list.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Schuelein
We are actually full of advice and support, but not necessarily the "It's going to be ok" type. This is the only list I still read after trying many others and every single time I read a post here I learn something helpful and useful for my journey. In fact, I think this list is the most amazingly wonderful resource. I have had two friends decide to unschool recently and I sent them to Sandra's website. Both cite this list and Sandra's website as their saving grace of sorts. I personally feel this list and Sandra's website are the very best unschooling resources around. I encourage everyone to approach posting here with an open mind. Sometimes people come here and feel our version of support isn't for them and that's fine, but I would encourage everyone to read, wait and watch before deciding to leave this list.
Jennifer
Jennifer
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I feel I am in need of support in terms of figuring out how unschooling would work for my family but as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather than offering advice to individual families as to how they can incorporate unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of being.-=-
>
> This list talks about particular situations as a starting place all the time. If you're interested in unschooling, we can definitely help. If you're interested in something other than unschooling, it wouldn't be a good use of the list.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Something I do or say may be an influencing factor in someone else's change.-=-
Of course, but if it's off topic for this list, it's not a good place for it.
-=- I think when people task themselves with bringing about change in another person, though, things can start to feel heavy handed.-=-
No one here has "tasked herself" with doing anything. I could just delete the whole list in about ten seconds. I deleted a list yesterday. I help because people thank me for helping. I help because I want to.
In the past couple of days it seems that on the list and off, some people are trying to bring about change in the list, and it feels VERY heavy handed. There are MANY yahoo lists, and people should either stay on the list and not complain, or get off the list and not complain. We're not the only source of information.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Of course, but if it's off topic for this list, it's not a good place for it.
-=- I think when people task themselves with bringing about change in another person, though, things can start to feel heavy handed.-=-
No one here has "tasked herself" with doing anything. I could just delete the whole list in about ten seconds. I deleted a list yesterday. I help because people thank me for helping. I help because I want to.
In the past couple of days it seems that on the list and off, some people are trying to bring about change in the list, and it feels VERY heavy handed. There are MANY yahoo lists, and people should either stay on the list and not complain, or get off the list and not complain. We're not the only source of information.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NCMama
I looked up Sandra's "support" page yesterday, because on another forum (about personal growth, not unschooling), someone was saying she wanted headpats and hugs, not the "hardline approach" being offered by the forum owner.
The owner's response, later in the conversation after he was taken to task for being harsh, made me think of this list. He said, in response to someone asking "Wouldn't seeing things from this person's point of view have a greater impact?":
"It depends on how you define impact. Are we talking about the kind of impact that can be seen and measured by an outside observer, or the kind that might fall into the category of self-delusion (claiming to have experienced significant change, yet there's no external evidence of it)? <snip> When someone isn't ready to assume 100% responsibility, the gentle guidance approach doesn't normally work well at all. If you try to help such people in areas where they're denying responsibility, you'll simply run in circles. There may be hugs and tears through each round of "helping", but it's largely faux growth as opposed to serious steps forward. People claim to have shifted internally, but on the outside everything remains pretty much the same." (written by Steve Pavlina - not recommending him or his work, but I wanted to credit the writer)
As I read their exchange, I felt that he was speaking to this woman's healthy core... I got a visual image of a strong metal frame, and what he was telling her was reinforcing that frame, not reinforcing all the extra stuff she had piled on it.
I had an ah-ha moment a couple years ago, after rejoining this list. I've said it before: When I was reading here as my mother's injured child, the answers seemed harsh. Once I understood that Sandra was talking to the healthy, adult me, the unschooling mother of my children, I understood. Sandra, and other posters here, are reinforcing the strong, healthy frame of unschooling, not all the extra stuff we pile on top of it.
This list and unschooling basics have a strong commitment to radical, whole-life unschooling. On this list, because Sandra's the owner, that is radical unschooling *as defined by Sandra*. This is her list, that is her right. I've seen some folks make the mistake that this must mean Sandra is attempting to define unschooling for everyone, everywhere, but I don't believe she is. She, and the moderators and other writers here, are maintaining the clarity of *this list*, keeping it to the core of radical unschooling, strengthening that metal unschooling frame for folks who ask questions here - so that the growth that happens can be seen & felt by the family.
peace,
Caren
The owner's response, later in the conversation after he was taken to task for being harsh, made me think of this list. He said, in response to someone asking "Wouldn't seeing things from this person's point of view have a greater impact?":
"It depends on how you define impact. Are we talking about the kind of impact that can be seen and measured by an outside observer, or the kind that might fall into the category of self-delusion (claiming to have experienced significant change, yet there's no external evidence of it)? <snip> When someone isn't ready to assume 100% responsibility, the gentle guidance approach doesn't normally work well at all. If you try to help such people in areas where they're denying responsibility, you'll simply run in circles. There may be hugs and tears through each round of "helping", but it's largely faux growth as opposed to serious steps forward. People claim to have shifted internally, but on the outside everything remains pretty much the same." (written by Steve Pavlina - not recommending him or his work, but I wanted to credit the writer)
As I read their exchange, I felt that he was speaking to this woman's healthy core... I got a visual image of a strong metal frame, and what he was telling her was reinforcing that frame, not reinforcing all the extra stuff she had piled on it.
I had an ah-ha moment a couple years ago, after rejoining this list. I've said it before: When I was reading here as my mother's injured child, the answers seemed harsh. Once I understood that Sandra was talking to the healthy, adult me, the unschooling mother of my children, I understood. Sandra, and other posters here, are reinforcing the strong, healthy frame of unschooling, not all the extra stuff we pile on top of it.
This list and unschooling basics have a strong commitment to radical, whole-life unschooling. On this list, because Sandra's the owner, that is radical unschooling *as defined by Sandra*. This is her list, that is her right. I've seen some folks make the mistake that this must mean Sandra is attempting to define unschooling for everyone, everywhere, but I don't believe she is. She, and the moderators and other writers here, are maintaining the clarity of *this list*, keeping it to the core of radical unschooling, strengthening that metal unschooling frame for folks who ask questions here - so that the growth that happens can be seen & felt by the family.
peace,
Caren
Jenny Cyphers
***I have been on this list for almost a year now, and I have also been on
other
lists. I have to say that this one has been the most helpful to me in learning
to be more mindful with my children and make life with them more full, joyful
and peaceful.***
I've been around long enough now to have seen forums come and go, as well as
people. What I like about this list is that it stays and the people stay too.
I'm still on several lists and forums specific to unschooling, but this list is
THE LIST that I invest my time in.
I pop into the Always Unschooled list from time to time and haven't been all
that impressed with it lately despite the fact that there are a few good writers
there. I like the Unschooling Basics list too, but I don't write there, only
read. There are a few really good writers there too. I enjoy the Family Run
Ning site too. Lately I've only had time to write in one, so Always Learning is
it, since it's my favorite hands down!
The worst list that I've been on is the Unschooling dot com yahoo list. Just my
opinion, and I haven't been there in a while anyway, so it may have changed but
I'm doubtful. I have zero experience with the Radical Unschooling list, except
I know how it was born and that it's too much into LoA stuff for my taste.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
other
lists. I have to say that this one has been the most helpful to me in learning
to be more mindful with my children and make life with them more full, joyful
and peaceful.***
I've been around long enough now to have seen forums come and go, as well as
people. What I like about this list is that it stays and the people stay too.
I'm still on several lists and forums specific to unschooling, but this list is
THE LIST that I invest my time in.
I pop into the Always Unschooled list from time to time and haven't been all
that impressed with it lately despite the fact that there are a few good writers
there. I like the Unschooling Basics list too, but I don't write there, only
read. There are a few really good writers there too. I enjoy the Family Run
Ning site too. Lately I've only had time to write in one, so Always Learning is
it, since it's my favorite hands down!
The worst list that I've been on is the Unschooling dot com yahoo list. Just my
opinion, and I haven't been there in a while anyway, so it may have changed but
I'm doubtful. I have zero experience with the Radical Unschooling list, except
I know how it was born and that it's too much into LoA stuff for my taste.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
shirarocklin
Hi Monika,
I read on the Always Unschooled list, and the Unschooling Basics list at the beginning. And a few others I can't remember. I slowly pared down to those two and this one. And then when I felt like I was spending too much time on lists, I thought about which one was 'best,' or had the most integrity (for me, that meant exploring the ideas thoroughly, being open to posters writing in things that aren't true while trying to find the truth, and I'm not sure what else). For a while, I was torn. Unschooling Basics has what seems like a kinder atmosphere, but that's because that list is more about direct advice, which seemed helpful at the start, but made me uncomfortable after a while because I wasn't understanding the underlying reasons of unschooling so well. I'm a type who likes books with theories which I can then apply, rather than my husband who likes books with examples which he can read and then crystallize into over-arching concepts. For me, Always Learning helped me understand better, without always feeling like I had to go DO what I learned right away without letting it sink in or be internalized as true.
Always Unschooled felt almost like this list, except that I preferred Sandra's (And Joyce, and Pam, and so many others) opinion over what I read there. This list takes some getting used to... its hard to separate out what you are writing in to ask from your real life, because it will be twisted and torn and pulled apart in order to examine all of the ideas. I've learned that if I'm not ready to hear things I don't want to hear, then I shouldn't ask that particular unschooling question here yet (except maybe to ask for links to read about the topic). But this list was just the cream of the crop.
Shira
I read on the Always Unschooled list, and the Unschooling Basics list at the beginning. And a few others I can't remember. I slowly pared down to those two and this one. And then when I felt like I was spending too much time on lists, I thought about which one was 'best,' or had the most integrity (for me, that meant exploring the ideas thoroughly, being open to posters writing in things that aren't true while trying to find the truth, and I'm not sure what else). For a while, I was torn. Unschooling Basics has what seems like a kinder atmosphere, but that's because that list is more about direct advice, which seemed helpful at the start, but made me uncomfortable after a while because I wasn't understanding the underlying reasons of unschooling so well. I'm a type who likes books with theories which I can then apply, rather than my husband who likes books with examples which he can read and then crystallize into over-arching concepts. For me, Always Learning helped me understand better, without always feeling like I had to go DO what I learned right away without letting it sink in or be internalized as true.
Always Unschooled felt almost like this list, except that I preferred Sandra's (And Joyce, and Pam, and so many others) opinion over what I read there. This list takes some getting used to... its hard to separate out what you are writing in to ask from your real life, because it will be twisted and torn and pulled apart in order to examine all of the ideas. I've learned that if I'm not ready to hear things I don't want to hear, then I shouldn't ask that particular unschooling question here yet (except maybe to ask for links to read about the topic). But this list was just the cream of the crop.
Shira
shirarocklin
> Well, no I was hoping for both. Since I am new to unschooling, I feel I am in need of support in terms of figuring out how unschooling would work for my family but as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather than offering advice to individual families as to how they can incorporate unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of being.Sort of, you are right, there isn't back-patting kind of support. But its a better support here after I learned to identify it. Its like the monkey platter idea. Whatever is brought up on the list, a myriad interpretations and ideas spring forth for everyone to analyse. Lots of suggestions for changes are made. The original poster will find that the discussion veers off from their original question, eventually, but in the meantime many many possible ideas to try out are presented, a monkey platter of ideas. Often, one of those is the jumping off point for me figuring out whats going wrong in our family dynamic, or how to fix it. Its not always exactly what is suggested, but it helps me to think beyond where I was thinking before, and find better solutions. So, this list is supportive for me. Maybe it takes a while of reading to get that though. Also, I pay attention to certain writers more than others, give different weight to different responses. Some writers have proven over time to me that what they say is almost always spot-on... others have really offended me, and I don't see them write so often, so I just ignore when that happens.
>
> I do think ideas are very important, but at this point I am needing both.
If you want to discuss practical application of the ideas in a different way, and you post to the KoalaMamas list (a local attachment parenting list for Toronto parents, for those who don't know), I'll try to involve myself in those discussions. I have a feeling, though, that lists with the specific purpose of supporting unschoolers could end up giving bad unschooling advice to new people who don't know how to tease out good ideas from bad ideas.
Shira
truth_seeking_mommy
Hi Shira, well part of the reason I started writing on KM under an alias is because since both my children were born unassisted, I used to get into heated debates with one of the moderators (who now has left, but I have been a bit lazy in joining with my real name and a lot of people know know who I am anyway since we have met in person).
So in part, that is why I want support, I don't want the heated debates of right and wrong, I just want to learn and raise my kids in the best possible way for our family, which incorporates many elements of unschooling.
But for example, I don't agree with the whole idea of prevention. I do think that it is important for parents to be proactive and hands on, but we can't ALWAYS control everything in our environment, so for me, being confident and prepared to handle any situation is more important (much like in giving birth), and having that inner trust and using intuition is very important to me too (but distinguishing that from habitualness).
I also came to this list to meet more dads...like Bob - I have read some of your posts and I'm glad you are here. Sometimes it feels like my spouse is the only hands on dad and very involved dad we know, so I love meeting other involved fathers.
So in part, that is why I want support, I don't want the heated debates of right and wrong, I just want to learn and raise my kids in the best possible way for our family, which incorporates many elements of unschooling.
But for example, I don't agree with the whole idea of prevention. I do think that it is important for parents to be proactive and hands on, but we can't ALWAYS control everything in our environment, so for me, being confident and prepared to handle any situation is more important (much like in giving birth), and having that inner trust and using intuition is very important to me too (but distinguishing that from habitualness).
I also came to this list to meet more dads...like Bob - I have read some of your posts and I'm glad you are here. Sometimes it feels like my spouse is the only hands on dad and very involved dad we know, so I love meeting other involved fathers.
--- In AlwaysLearning@..., "shirarocklin" <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
>
> > Well, no I was hoping for both. Since I am new to unschooling, I feel I am in need of support in terms of figuring out how unschooling would work for my family but as I understand it, this list is more about IDEAS rather than offering advice to individual families as to how they can incorporate unschooling to meet their own family's unique way of being.
> >
> > I do think ideas are very important, but at this point I am needing both.
>
>
> Sort of, you are right, there isn't back-patting kind of support. But its a better support here after I learned to identify it. Its like the monkey platter idea. Whatever is brought up on the list, a myriad interpretations and ideas spring forth for everyone to analyse. Lots of suggestions for changes are made. The original poster will find that the discussion veers off from their original question, eventually, but in the meantime many many possible ideas to try out are presented, a monkey platter of ideas. Often, one of those is the jumping off point for me figuring out whats going wrong in our family dynamic, or how to fix it. Its not always exactly what is suggested, but it helps me to think beyond where I was thinking before, and find better solutions. So, this list is supportive for me. Maybe it takes a while of reading to get that though. Also, I pay attention to certain writers more than others, give different weight to different responses. Some writers have proven over time to me that what they say is almost always spot-on... others have really offended me, and I don't see them write so often, so I just ignore when that happens.
>
> If you want to discuss practical application of the ideas in a different way, and you post to the KoalaMamas list (a local attachment parenting list for Toronto parents, for those who don't know), I'll try to involve myself in those discussions. I have a feeling, though, that lists with the specific purpose of supporting unschoolers could end up giving bad unschooling advice to new people who don't know how to tease out good ideas from bad ideas.
>
> Shira
>
NCMama
-=-I also came to this list to meet more dads...like Bob - I have read some of your posts and I'm glad you are here. Sometimes it feels like my spouse is the only hands on dad and very involved dad we know, so I love meeting other involved fathers.-=-
At unschooling conferences, there is usually a meeting or two just for the Dads. If there is any way you can get to a conference or gathering, that can make a HUGE difference with unschooling. There is also an email list, called the Secret Society of Unschooling Dads: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SSUDs/ It doesn't look very active, but I know when someone posts there, other Dads do respond.
Caren
At unschooling conferences, there is usually a meeting or two just for the Dads. If there is any way you can get to a conference or gathering, that can make a HUGE difference with unschooling. There is also an email list, called the Secret Society of Unschooling Dads: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SSUDs/ It doesn't look very active, but I know when someone posts there, other Dads do respond.
Caren
Chris Sanders
> I also came to this list to meet more dads...like Bob - I have read some of your posts and I'm glad you are here. Sometimes it feels like my spouse is the only hands on dad and very involved dad we know, so I love meeting other involved fathers.I suspect there are a lot of hands on dads in our unschooled children's lives, there just aren't that many who write about it - on lists or blogs. My kids' dad has always been very hands on/involved in our kids' lives but he has little to no interest in discussing unschooling let alone writing about it. He's taken a very prominent role in our young teen daughter's daily life and care lately, which I think is fantastic! A strong, healthy daughter-father relationship has to be good for her future relationships with men!
Reading blogs of unschoolers -- some dads have blogs, but mostly it's the moms -- I am able to glean a lot of information about the dad's participation in their unschooling lives. Here are a couple of blogs that are either written by, co-written by or often feature dad's involvement in their unschooled kids' lives:
http://zombieprincess.blogspot.com/
Frank Maier (Ronnie's husband) http://pvmaro.blogspot.com/
http://thewonderfulhappens.blogspot.com/
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/ (my own blog, which I haven't updated in a long time)
I'm sure there are more, maybe others can post.
Chris in IA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aldq75
Amanda Soule does not write about unschooling very often, but her husband occasionally writes on her blog and the entries are usually about their children:
http://www.soulemama.com/soulemama/guest-blogs/
Andrea Q
http://www.soulemama.com/soulemama/guest-blogs/
Andrea Q
--- In [email protected], Chris Sanders <iowaunschoolers@...> wrote:
>
> I suspect there are a lot of hands on dads in our unschooled children's lives, there just aren't that many who write about it - on lists or blogs.
> I'm sure there are more, maybe others can post.
>
> Chris in IA
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 22, 2011, at 10:11 AM, truth_seeking_mommy wrote:
agree that it's the only approach.
Is anyone saying that? I *know* no one has said that here. People
*have* said, be more present to prevent what you can.
that's a drain that doesn't need to happen. Better planning can
prevent it.
If a problem crops up and mom has no clue what to do, that's not good
either.
While the second can exist without the first -- and it's how most
conventional parenting goes -- that's not as good as keeping an eye on
prevention.
involved in understanding this style of living is small. The pool from
that pool of Dads who like to write about it on forums is even smaller.
There's the Unschooling Dads list -- but it's only for dads!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDads/
There are some on the Radical Unschoolers Network (including Bob)
http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topic/list
The best place to meet a significant number of dads is at an
unschooling conference.
"best"? What's your particular definition? What's the definition of
the people debating? Even "best for your family" is vague. (And I'm
not asking you to define it here. It's something to think about.) What
are your priorities? Family harmony? Peace? Support for kids? Support
for each other? Togetherness? Connection? There's more but which of
those you choose and what order you'd put them in for various
situations is what will define what "works" means and what "best" means.
That's what makes the Always Learning list and others like it so
valuable. What we're helping people understand, what we're debating is
clearly defined. It's about what helps and hinders joyful learning.
What helps and hinders joyful living in support of joyful learning.
What helps and hinders children living peacefully with the world.
What's discussed here isn't the only possible parenting goal. It isn't
even the only possible radical unschooling parenting goal. But what it
is is clear about what the list intends to help parents with.
If someone has different goals or additional goals, say "making sure"
their kids learn math or like protecting their kids from processed
food and commercial TV, they won't agree with people here on what's
"right". Which is why some people may want to join several lists so
they can pick and choose.
No one's required to agree with every bit of the list's goal, but
people will be able to live more peacefully on the list if they accept
they won't always agree but to be effective, the list needs a clear
goal. It can't be "whatever works for you." Because what helps one
person toward their goal would serious interfere with someone reaching
their goal.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But for example, I don't agree with the whole idea of prevention. IIt sounds like you do agree with the idea of prevention. You don't
> do think that it is important for parents to be proactive and hands
> on,
agree that it's the only approach.
Is anyone saying that? I *know* no one has said that here. People
*have* said, be more present to prevent what you can.
> but we can't ALWAYS control everything in our environment, so forThey're both important. If a problem is happening over and over, then
> me, being confident and prepared to handle any situation is more
> important (much like in giving birth), and having that inner trust
> and using intuition is very important to me too (but distinguishing
> that from habitualness).
that's a drain that doesn't need to happen. Better planning can
prevent it.
If a problem crops up and mom has no clue what to do, that's not good
either.
While the second can exist without the first -- and it's how most
conventional parenting goes -- that's not as good as keeping an eye on
prevention.
> I also came to this list to meet more dads...like BobThey're few and far between! The pool of dads who are committed and
involved in understanding this style of living is small. The pool from
that pool of Dads who like to write about it on forums is even smaller.
There's the Unschooling Dads list -- but it's only for dads!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDads/
There are some on the Radical Unschoolers Network (including Bob)
http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topic/list
The best place to meet a significant number of dads is at an
unschooling conference.
> So in part, that is why I want support, I don't want the heatedAh, there's part of why you're having trouble. What do you mean by
> debates of right and wrong, I just want to learn and raise my kids
> in the best possible way for our family, which incorporates many
> elements of unschooling.
"best"? What's your particular definition? What's the definition of
the people debating? Even "best for your family" is vague. (And I'm
not asking you to define it here. It's something to think about.) What
are your priorities? Family harmony? Peace? Support for kids? Support
for each other? Togetherness? Connection? There's more but which of
those you choose and what order you'd put them in for various
situations is what will define what "works" means and what "best" means.
That's what makes the Always Learning list and others like it so
valuable. What we're helping people understand, what we're debating is
clearly defined. It's about what helps and hinders joyful learning.
What helps and hinders joyful living in support of joyful learning.
What helps and hinders children living peacefully with the world.
What's discussed here isn't the only possible parenting goal. It isn't
even the only possible radical unschooling parenting goal. But what it
is is clear about what the list intends to help parents with.
If someone has different goals or additional goals, say "making sure"
their kids learn math or like protecting their kids from processed
food and commercial TV, they won't agree with people here on what's
"right". Which is why some people may want to join several lists so
they can pick and choose.
No one's required to agree with every bit of the list's goal, but
people will be able to live more peacefully on the list if they accept
they won't always agree but to be effective, the list needs a clear
goal. It can't be "whatever works for you." Because what helps one
person toward their goal would serious interfere with someone reaching
their goal.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 22, 2011, at 10:11 AM, truth_seeking_mommy wrote:
list of unschooling kid blogs. And unschooling dad blogs.
Among lots of other things.
Some of the links might be a bit old but even if there hasn't been
updates for a while, the writing should still be valuable.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I also came to this list to meet more dads...like BobMeredith posted a link to Easy Life Unschooling a bit ago. There's a
list of unschooling kid blogs. And unschooling dad blogs.
Among lots of other things.
Some of the links might be a bit old but even if there hasn't been
updates for a while, the writing should still be valuable.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris Sanders
Agh! Mary's blog is not my blog -- sorry about that copy/paste mixup. Here is my blog:
http://zamunzo.blogspot.com/
Chris in IA
http://zamunzo.blogspot.com/
Chris in IA
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/ (my own blog, which I haven't updated in a long time)
>
> I'm sure there are more, maybe others can post.
>
> Chris in IA
>