teresa

On another board, addressing a fear a mother had that her child who left an enrichment program would adopt habits of not finishing things and become "a quitter," Sandra made this point:

"If you keep putting him in programs and classes, you're not giving unschooling a chance to work its wonders in your family. For some reason, you keep quitting unschooling."

And I've been thinking about it for a week, not particularly about how it applies to something like an enrichment program, but to special programs and classes. (I'm thinking more along the lines of a karate class, or a pioneer-themed summer camp, etc.)

I'm curious if other families take classes or attend programs, how it works into their lives if they do, the circumstances that led to the classes, and how the children progressed through (did parents go, too? did teaching/learning style stuff come up for your child? did you child stay interested until the end? did they express a desire to take more classes? etc.). Also, for those with older children, did this changed over time?

Philosophically speaking, how does the experience of taking a class or entering a program fit in with the hows and whys of unschooling?

Thanks for your thoughts and stories.

Teresa

Sandra Dodd

-=-Philosophically speaking, how does the experience of taking a class or entering a program fit in with the hows and whys of unschooling?-=-

Kelly Lovejoy wrote something very useful. It's been mentioned a fairly frequently lately, out and about (and once in here, I think).
http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages

Among other things, there's the suggestion that those new to unschooling won't be helped by involvement in classes. It won't be the same before deschooling as after.

Kirby took karate classes for many years, and eventually was teaching the young beginners. Holly enjoyed dance classes and some acting situations. My kids had never gone to school, though, so that might make a difference. I wasn't thinking they needed classes for history or science, reading or math.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rinelle

-=-Philosophically speaking, how does the experience of taking a class or
entering a program fit in with the hows and whys of unschooling?-=-

Classes, for us, are another way to explore an interest we might have. My
daughter (6) has been taking a gymnastics class for about 6 months now, and
is keen to continue. For her, the chance to practice those large movements,
with equipment that she doesn't have at home, in the company of friends. We
were very lucky to find a class of homeschoolers, and one that doesn't
stress competition (grading or competition has never even been mentioned),
that is just about fun.

If it stops being fun, then we will stop. Which we did with swimming.
Despite my talking to the teacher about my daughter not liking having her
head put under the water, the teacher continued to do so, so we stopped.
Perhaps we'll try again one day (with a different teacher), or perhaps
learning swimming will come naturally from spending time in the water as a
family. Swimming lessons weren't about learning to swim, so much as having a
fun time in the water with some activities we might not have thought to try.
When that wasn't happening, we stopped the lessons.

For us, classes are also a good way to socialise in a larger group with
friends. (We do have unstructured playgroups as well.) My daughter has
once or twice expressed an interest in going to school (she's never been,
(usually after we drive past a school while the children are at lunch, or
doing sport outside), and this is a way for her to have that experience, in
a less structured way.

At 6, I'm always sitting on the sidelines while my daughter is at a class.
If that weren't possible, then we probably wouldn't do that class. I have
stepped in when my daughter was obviously uncomfortable with something that
was happening, and have made it clear to the teacher that I want her to be
able to do things at her own pace, and not be pushed to do something that
makes her uncomfortable. Some teachers (like the gymnastics teacher)
respect that, some (like the swimming teacher), don't.

We're hoping this year to do a lot more classes, picking and choosing what
we want and don't want from what is available. We're lucky to have many
around that seem to be suited to the kind of learning that we are seeking.

Tamara

dola dasgupta-banerji

My daughter is a keen dancer. She took classes for almost three years. But
then suddenly she was no longer interested for the classes. When I spoke to
her she told me that she loved to dance but did not enjoy the class anymore.
So I tried to watch and understand what was it about the class that she did
not like. And I clearly saw how she did not like being told to practice more
at home, she did not want to rush (my daughter likes slow pace), she did not
want perfection in her dance (at least not then, she is now 9).

So we discontinued. Swimming she enjoyed because the coach and I had a talk
and we agreed that she just wanted to know how to swim and not be an expert
swimmer for now. That went off very well.

perhaps some day she will take dance classes again perhaps not.

Dola

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Rinelle <rinelle@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=-Philosophically speaking, how does the experience of taking a class or
> entering a program fit in with the hows and whys of unschooling?-=-
>
> Classes, for us, are another way to explore an interest we might have. My
> daughter (6) has been taking a gymnastics class for about 6 months now, and
>
> is keen to continue. For her, the chance to practice those large movements,
>
> with equipment that she doesn't have at home, in the company of friends. We
>
> were very lucky to find a class of homeschoolers, and one that doesn't
> stress competition (grading or competition has never even been mentioned),
> that is just about fun.
>
> If it stops being fun, then we will stop. Which we did with swimming.
> Despite my talking to the teacher about my daughter not liking having her
> head put under the water, the teacher continued to do so, so we stopped.
> Perhaps we'll try again one day (with a different teacher), or perhaps
> learning swimming will come naturally from spending time in the water as a
> family. Swimming lessons weren't about learning to swim, so much as having
> a
> fun time in the water with some activities we might not have thought to
> try.
> When that wasn't happening, we stopped the lessons.
>
> For us, classes are also a good way to socialise in a larger group with
> friends. (We do have unstructured playgroups as well.) My daughter has
> once or twice expressed an interest in going to school (she's never been,
> (usually after we drive past a school while the children are at lunch, or
> doing sport outside), and this is a way for her to have that experience, in
>
> a less structured way.
>
> At 6, I'm always sitting on the sidelines while my daughter is at a class.
> If that weren't possible, then we probably wouldn't do that class. I have
> stepped in when my daughter was obviously uncomfortable with something that
>
> was happening, and have made it clear to the teacher that I want her to be
> able to do things at her own pace, and not be pushed to do something that
> makes her uncomfortable. Some teachers (like the gymnastics teacher)
> respect that, some (like the swimming teacher), don't.
>
> We're hoping this year to do a lot more classes, picking and choosing what
> we want and don't want from what is available. We're lucky to have many
> around that seem to be suited to the kind of learning that we are seeking.
>
> Tamara
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

shirarocklin

Temima, 4.5 years old, goes to a few classes. At the community centre. Originally, it was mommy and me classes... later when she became drop-off age, it was me taking her because it was an affordable way for me to have a break once a week. I didn't force her, I wouldn't have done it if she didn't like it. But she loves the teachers in those classes (this year its Creative Playtime, and Drama). She fits well with the 'raise your hand' and 'line up in a row' atmosphere (as I did as a child), and seems to truly enjoy herself.

In the beginning, I was discovering unschooling at the same time as transitioning to those drop-off classes. I guess that was last year. At first, I was concerned that by putting her in these classes I was doing something that wasn't unschooling. That I wasn't right there with her if there was conflict. That they have 'rules'. But there were discussions here where I remember reading that if your child likes to be somewhere, and that place has some rules, then thats fine. Its okay to accept a set of rules, for the sake of enjoyment.

She took a swim class this fall, and a ballet class. The Ballet, she loved. The swim, she really really wanted to go... but after the third class she didn't want to go anymore. And I didn't make her. And for the first three classes, when she expressed that Joel (the instructor) was trying to 'teach' her how to swim, and all she really wanted to do was play with the water toys, I told her she could tell Joel that, or that I could tell Joel that. I told her that I pay for the class, that I am Joel's boss, and that if she just wants to sit and play in the water, thats okay too. But she didn't want me to interfere, and I guess she didn't want to say it to him, so she just didn't continue swimming. He was a really sweet boy, though, and I think he would have been fine letting her play.

At that swim class, I saw many parents coercing, forcing, bribing, or forcing in some way their child to stay in the water, or listen to the teacher, etc. It made me cringe. It was really unhappy to be around the parents, and even one discussion I had which was about how important it was for kids to learn this skill and not to quit. I thought, "These aren't kids... these are just-barely-finished-toddlers."

Anyhow, Temima enjoys the schoolish aspects of these programs, and the fun she has. I think it satisfies her curiosity about school a little bit. She's never been to school, and so maybe thats why it works so well? When we first started doing this, I tried to think of these classes as drop-ins, like some other programs we go to sometimes at the library. I sign us up for those, but I don't commit to going every week, in my head. Even though we are paying for each week, I look at it as paying for the option to go each week. So if we don't go, its no loss.

I think, at this age of kids, 2 and 4.5, these kinds of classes have been helpful as I continue to move from attachment parenting to unschooling. While the parenting part has become more intuitive, the strewing part is taking longer to get. So, its nice to know that those hours are filled with something interesting that she loves to do, while I learn how to strew during the rest of our time.

Shira Rocklin

Sandra Dodd

-=- I told her she could tell Joel that, or that I could tell Joel that. I told her that I pay for the class, that I am Joel's boss, and that if she just wants to sit and play in the water, thats okay too. But she didn't want me to interfere, and I guess she didn't want to say it to him,-=-

Just because someone pays to have a child in a class, or with a one-on-one teacher, that doesn't make that person "the boss."
If someone pays to come to a conference to hear me speak, that doesn't make them the boss--not even a shareholder--in what I say or do while I'm presenting.

If I keep someone's child in my house for some small amount of money an hour, that doesn't make them my boss. Someone would have to pay me a LOT of money to watch their children to their specifications. And if those specifications included anything that went against my beliefs, I hope I wouldn't really need that money.

In a group situation such as a swimming class, or music or art or anything else physical and easily disrupted, for one child to say "My mom says I don't have to do this" could disrupt the whole thing.

Unschoolers don't gain special privileges in the world. My kids have mentioned before that it seems to them some unschoolers get (or are explicitly given) the idea that they are unschoolers now, and the rules don't apply to them anymore. WRONG! Their parents can change things around at home, but their authority doesn't extend past that, or their own interactions with their children.

I'm glad your daughter didn't go to the teacher and say that. I think she was right.

If a parent wants to find a play-partner or informal instructor, the thing to do is to ask the questions in advance, before money is discussed, and not assume that a pre-designed group situation will be customized for one child just because her mom's philosophy has changed.

Her not having to be there, not being required to be there, is a big advantage:

-=-I think it satisfies her curiosity about school a little bit. She's never been to school, and so maybe thats why it works so well? When we first started doing this, I tried to think of these classes as drop-ins, like some other programs we go to sometimes at the library. I sign us up for those, but I don't commit to going every week, in my head. Even though we are paying for each week, I look at it as paying for the option to go each week. So if we don't go, its no loss.-=-

-=-I think, at this age of kids, 2 and 4.5, these kinds of classes have been helpful as I continue to move from attachment parenting to unschooling. While the parenting part has become more intuitive, the strewing part is taking longer to get. So, its nice to know that those hours are filled with something interesting that she loves to do, while I learn how to strew during the rest of our time. -=-

I don't think you can learn to strew while she's not there. IF she's having fun, then great, but if you really want to move to unschooling, being with your daughter and helping that relationship blossom into something glorious is what it takes.

In the "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch" model, it sounds like you're wanting to read a lot, while they're in classes. I could be wrong, but if your kid are thinking in ANY way that those classes are the reason they're learning, and those things couldn't have been gathered other ways, that could be a problem.

Sandra

flyingtwinsmom

This is a timely topic for me. We've done classes on and off, but they are usually what would be considered "extra-curricular" classes. I have asked them if they would like to join a co-op which those that attend say is very fun, but because it is structured much like school, they have no interest in attending. They loved their swimming class just because they love being in the water. Then I enrolled them in gymnastics. They loved playing with equipment they didn't have at home. But during one of the classes after several months, the instructor told on of them that they had to do something which the daughter had said she didn't want to do because it caused her wrist to hurt. I was not aware of this until after class because we are on the other side of the glass. Daughter did it, but hasn't been back since. If she had been truly interested in pursuing gymnastics, then she has said she knew she needed to do it, but since she just wanted to have fun and the class stopped being fun, she didn't want to go.

Now, they want to go to a summer camp that will give them horsemanship skills. I've found one that I am working on, but the classes require a test at the end of the week in order to work their way through a nationally certified program. Neither daughter reads well, and they've only had one very bad experience with taking tests. But they both want to do this horse camp. So they are determined to go and do the best that they can because it's something that they want. I can't change the camp program for them even though we will be paying a large sum for them to attend. They want to do it because it is their own goal, and they realize that to accomplish it, they will have to follow the rules.

Just because we are unschoolers, it doesn't mean that I can change a program to fit my kids, but I can give my kids options. They can choose to attend or not. They can go and not worry about actually passing the requirements but having fun instead (within any guidelines for the class). They can decide if it's a goal they want to reach, and they can decide what they are willing to do to reach it. I can't change the world's requirements for them, but I can support them and help them to reach any goals they want to reach.

Bonni

lalow

I recently have been thinking about signing my daughter up for a writing workshop. She is 7. Not because I think she needs to learn to write or that it will help her learn to write but because there are several girls her age in the class, one of her best friends is in there, it is very very layed back and I know the teacher and she presents some stories, gives the kids writing materials and if they want to write they can, if they want to draw they can and if they dont want to do either there other other things to play with there. So it is all very layed back and week to week so she can go when she wants and skip as many weeks as the would want. I think she would enjoy it, just like she likes to take art classes sometimes.

Katrine Clip

I have been thinking of this too:

<<... a fear a mother had that her child who left an enrichment program
> would adopt habits of not finishing things and become "a quitter,">>>
>

We have been unschooling for a year now, and my 9 year old boys can't stay
with any activity for long. I got a lot of criticism from my inlaws for
allowing the boys to try out and then quit one sport/activity after the
other. Now they are doing taekwondo, because they asked to do it and wanted
it intensely (they did it for a year 3 or 4 years ago). They love the
uniforms! Well, two weeks into the membership one of them doesn't want to go
much anymore, and influences the other so sometimes he doesn't want to
either. My husband and I don't like to let them quit since it was their
idea, and they do really like it - it's transitioning and getting out of the
house that's the hard part. Once they are there it's all fun and they get a
lot out of it.

I find it difficult to find the balance between encouraging them to go and
not force them. My husband thinks we need to apply some pressure because we
all know how fun it is once they're there... I don't like to force them at
all. But I give them my opinion, what I know, that they are having fun there
and meeting other kids. One of the rules at taekwondo is to commit to at
least 2 times a week. Other rules are that they have to say "Yes, sir" and
"Yes, m'am", bow, and pay attention to what the instructor says. They have
no problems with this in class, just *getting to* class!

And then I reread Sandra's words:

<<< "If you keep putting him in programs and classes, you're not giving
> unschooling a chance to work its wonders in your family. For some reason,
> you keep quitting unschooling.">>>
>

I don't want to quit unschooling, and I don't want them to quit taekwondo
(at least not the first month). It's also a problem between my husband and I
in how to deal with this, he prefers action and decision making (he liked
parts of what the "tiger mom" wrote and thought she had a point about
persevering and learning through practice). And he would love to see them
*do* SOMETHING because that's what everybody else does. All the other
(schooled) kids are good at *something* ours don't excel at anything.

I remember well how it was growing up with a controlling father who forced
me to do activities I didn't care for, I'm more willing to accept my
children's choices and not forcing them. I'm not competitive and I don't
care if the neighbors' kids are great athletes, and play instruments well.
Their mom yells and threatens and spanks. I am happy that we have a better
relationship here. I just hope that my children will find an activity they
want to stick with for a while and learn a lot about it.

-Katrine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wtexans

===My husband and I don't like to let them quit since it was their
idea, and they do really like it - it's transitioning and getting out of the house that's the hard part. Once they are there it's all fun and they get a lot out of it.===

After I read your post, I chatted with my 12-1/2 yr old, always-unschooled, son about it. As a kiddo who's been able to try out classes and quit if he wasn't getting what he wanted out of them, I wanted his feedback.

My son's taken acting classes a couple times. He took a beginner's class when he was 8 or 9 and loved it. It was a small class, he had a couple friends in the class, and the instructor made the class fun and interesting and he interacted well with the kids (my son's opinion, but I caught the end of a couple classes and thought the same thing).

He then took the next level up class. The class was about twice the size as the beginner's class, he didn't know anyone in it, there was a different instructor who, according to my son, spent most of the class time trying to get the kids to pay attention ("herding cats" is the phrase that comes to mind). In a month's time, my son went from looking forward to going to the class, to dragging his feet about going, to not wanting to go at all, at which point we let the instructor know my kiddo wouldn't be back.

About a year later, my son wanted to try that second class again. But it ended up being the same situation: overly-large class and the instructor spent much of the class time trying to keep the kids corralled and paying attention to him.

It was annoying for my son because he *wanted* to be there, he *wanted* the class to be enjoyable rather than the instructor having to spend his time babysitting kids who really didn't want to be there.

My son is a big gamer. When he's interested in doing something away from home, he may game right up until it's time to leave, but he will voluntarily stop what he's doing when it's time to leave home. It's worth it to him stop. (This is what he told me tonight when we were discussing this topic.)

When something's not as interesting, much like the second acting class became, he'd rather keep doing what he's doing at home. That's a pretty good indicator for me that he's interested in whatever the away-from-home plans are: if he stops what he's doing, he's interested in going; if he keeps saying, "in a minute," and "in a minute" drags on and on, he's not especially interested in stopping what he's doing to go do something else.

So it may be that, yes, your sons enjoy aspects of the class, but overall the class isn't so enjoyable that they're wanting to stop what they're doing at home to go to the class. That was my son's feedback about this particular part of your post.

(I have a few other things to add, but this reply's getting long so I'll wrap this one up and start a second one.)

Glenda

wtexans

===my 9 year old boys can't stay with any activity for long===

That's a "never" phrase.

Think about the things that are their passion, and think about how long they enjoy doing THOSE things.

My son was passionate about all-things-Pokemon for a solid 5 years. He could spend long stretches of time in a day involved with Pokemon stuff: action figures, videos/dvds, find-the-Pokemon books, looking through the Pokemon guide, playing Pokemon games, puttering around with Pokemon art, putting together his Pokemon "dream team", etc.

He's been passionate about video games since he was, gosh, 3 or 4 years old; now he's 12-1/2. That passion has blossomed into a variety of directions.

Consider that passion may not necessarily happen for your kids for what you currently consider "an activity". Re-define "activity."


===My husband and I don't like to let them quit since it was their idea, and they do really like it===

If you don't let them quit when they express a desire to do so, they may quit coming to you with their ideas of things they'd like to try.

They've taken taekwondo before so they know what to expect. When they took it before, it sounds like that was before you began unschooling ("they did it for a year 3 or 4 years ago"). So maybe they didn't have the option to quit at that time, or maybe they enjoyed it and didn't want to quit until they'd been doing it for a year. Maybe they're more comfortable now, now that you're unschooling, expressing their desire to quit. Maybe what they expect from the class is different than what they expected 3 or 4 years ago, and it's not meeting their expectations this time around.

Perhaps they like parts of it, but not so much that they're especially excited about going. Maybe what they're doing at home is more fun than taekwondo. Why penalize them for that?


===Once they are there it's all fun and they get a lot out of it.===

Is that your opinion, or have they actually said it's all fun and they get a lot out of it???

My thinking is that if it's "all fun", they'd not be wanting to quit.


===All the other (schooled) kids are good at *something* ours don't excel at anything===

Wow, that sentence is just full of "all or nothing"-ness.

*ALL* of the schooled kids are good at something??? Each and every one???

You really cannot think of things at which your kids are excellent???

I don't know if my son would meet a school's criteria for "excel", but I know he's excellent at cracking me up, he's excellent at feeling compassion for others, he has a knack for spelling, he reads well, he can add and subtract in his head quicker than I, he's surpassed me in his ability to figure out computer stuff, he's a rock-solid gamer, he can budget his spending money better than I, he sings really well (which is interesting since neither his dad nor I are musically-inclined), he's really sweet and kind to younger kids, and so on.

You've made a couple statements that indicate you see your kids as lacking. Instead of looking at what they don't do, look at what they DO do.

Glenda

lalow

> >
>
> We have been unschooling for a year now, and my 9 year old boys can't stay
> with any activity for long. I got a lot of criticism from my inlaws for
> allowing the boys to try out and then quit one sport/activity after the
> other. Now they are doing taekwondo, because they asked to do it and wanted
> it intensely (they did it for a year 3 or 4 years ago). They love the
> uniforms! Well, two weeks into the membership one of them doesn't want to go
> much anymore, and influences the other so sometimes he doesn't want to
> either. My husband and I don't like to let them quit since it was their
> idea, and they do really like it - it's transitioning and getting out of the
> house that's the hard part. Once they are there it's all fun and they get a
> lot out of it.


My 9 year old is doing Taekwondo right now too. He loves it but lately has had a harder time getting motivated to leave the house. I asked him the other night if he was getting tired of it but he said, no he really likes it but we got the xbox at Christmas and has been enjoying playing that in the evenings with his Dad. I have encouraged him to go atleast twice a week and he goes to a weapons class on Saturday. Occasionally he will just outright say he doesnt want to and we skip it but mostly he just says arggg... and gets ready and goes and has fun.

Sandra Dodd

-=-We have been unschooling for a year now, and my 9 year old boys can't stay
with any activity for long-=-

"Can't" is a harsh way to state it, though. It suggests the natural state of humans IS to stay with an activity for long.
If they choose to explore, it's more positive.
If they refuse to spend their time doing something they don't like, that's downright healthy!

-=- I got a lot of criticism from my inlaws for
allowing the boys to try out and then quit one sport/activity after the
other.-=-

Do your inlaws take martial arts classes? Do they do team sports? Or do they think that's something kids "have to do" and adults don't? What have your inlaws stuck with? Or what have they refused to even try, because of some feeling that if you join up you have to "stick with it"?

-=-My husband and I don't like to let them quit since it was their
idea, and they do really like it - it's transitioning and getting out of the
house that's the hard part. Once they are there it's all fun and they get a
lot out of it.-=-

There were times one of my kids was draggy about something like karate or hockey or dance. Once in a while. A couple of things that can help are bribery (pizza after, or something) or getting them out of the house earlier for something less exciting maybe-not in a big planned way, but in a "we need to get underwear..." or groceries or an oil change way.

-=-I find it difficult to find the balance between encouraging them to go and
not force them. My husband thinks we need to apply some pressure because we
all know how fun it is once they're there... I don't like to force them at
all. -=-

Perhaps your husband should be the one to force and enforce, then. If you are opposed and your husband is in favor, if you can gently (without it being an ultimatum) ask him to be the inspiring driver and cheerleader and pizza-afterwards buyer, he might either do that (and might be great at it) or he might balk, in which case you might discover more about his feelings. And he might discover more about his feelings.

If the person who presses will be the bad guy, and he doesn't realize that (or if he does), that would be a new facet in the discussion.

-=-And then I reread Sandra's words:

<<< "If you keep putting him in programs and classes, you're not giving
> unschooling a chance to work its wonders in your family. For some reason,
> you keep quitting unschooling.">>>
>

-=-I don't want to quit unschooling, and I don't want them to quit taekwondo
(at least not the first month). -=-

That quote was about someone with really young children who was putting them in 'enrichment classes'--a schoolish situation, with academics separated from arts, but with academics. I don't think it applies to martial arts.

-=-And he would love to see them
*do* SOMETHING because that's what everybody else does. All the other
(schooled) kids are good at *something* ours don't excel at anything.
-=-

WHOA! ALL the schooled kids are good at something?
All "the other" kids where?

Will your kids be required to compete with school kid? And imaginary school kids? Or just the set of school kids who are "good at something," ignoring all the poor school kids who have papers to prove they are NOT good at ANYthing? That's a very bad idea. It's not my opinion. I'm not qualifying that. To shame (subtly or overtly) or pressure children to keep up with the theoretical, imaginary Jones kids is not going to lead to better relationships.

-=- I just hope that my children will find an activity they
want to stick with for a while and learn a lot about it.-=-

Think about why you want that.
If they do it because you want it, it won't be the same as if you TRULY let them find something they like and accept that they might only like it for a month, or maybe for 40 years.

Think of what you mean by "an activity," too.

What if one likes to draw, at home, with cheap pencils on cheap paper?
What if one wants to learn to play guitar, at home, alone? That used to come out of books and fingering charts, but now there are countless videos online of people showing how to play some particular song, or to tune or string a guitar. Would that be "an activity"?

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

===My husband and I don't like to let them quit since it was their idea, and they do really like it===

-=-If you don't let them quit when they express a desire to do so, they may quit coming to you with their ideas of things they'd like to try. -=-


Good point.
I thought it when I asked about the in-laws, but I had a friend who wanted to unschool (she wasn't very good at it, and her family ended up scattered all over the country before the kids were grown). Her son was nine or thereabout when they started, and she told me proudly (to show she was really getting it) that she had told him he could read any book he wanted to, as long as he finished any book he started. I looked at her a long couple of seconds to see if she was joking, or thinking. She wasn't. I asked her if she finishes every book she starts, and pointed out that he was unlikely to start any book at all.

The difference between choosing to do something and "having" to do something is at the heart of the difference between unschooling and school. It's not the only thing in that spot, but it's one of the big ones. :-)


http://sandradodd.com/haveto

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Earthlink Mail

Read "refuse to choose" by Barbara Sher (author of Wishcraft). Be thrilled your kids feel free to sample different experiences. Don't view it as quitting, view it as "trying out ". When you sign them up for things, do it with a Try it out" attitude from the start.

Pam

Sent from my iPod

On Jan 28, 2011, at 7:42 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-We have been unschooling for a year now, and my 9 year old boys can't stay
> with any activity for long-=-
>
> "Can't" is a harsh way to state it, though. It suggests the natural state of humans IS to stay with an activity for long.
> If they choose to explore, it's more positive.
> If they refuse to spend their time doing something they don't like, that's downright healthy!
>
> -=- I got a lot of criticism from my inlaws for
> allowing the boys to try out and then quit one sport/activity after the
> other.-=-
>
> Do your inlaws take martial arts classes? Do they do team sports? Or do they think that's something kids "have to do" and adults don't? What have your inlaws stuck with? Or what have they refused to even try, because of some feeling that if you join up you have to "stick with it"?
>
> -=-My husband and I don't like to let them quit since it was their
> idea, and they do really like it - it's transitioning and getting out of the
> house that's the hard part. Once they are there it's all fun and they get a
> lot out of it.-=-
>
> There were times one of my kids was draggy about something like karate or hockey or dance. Once in a while. A couple of things that can help are bribery (pizza after, or something) or getting them out of the house earlier for something less exciting maybe-not in a big planned way, but in a "we need to get underwear..." or groceries or an oil change way.
>
> -=-I find it difficult to find the balance between encouraging them to go and
> not force them. My husband thinks we need to apply some pressure because we
> all know how fun it is once they're there... I don't like to force them at
> all. -=-
>
> Perhaps your husband should be the one to force and enforce, then. If you are opposed and your husband is in favor, if you can gently (without it being an ultimatum) ask him to be the inspiring driver and cheerleader and pizza-afterwards buyer, he might either do that (and might be great at it) or he might balk, in which case you might discover more about his feelings. And he might discover more about his feelings.
>
> If the person who presses will be the bad guy, and he doesn't realize that (or if he does), that would be a new facet in the discussion.
>
> -=-And then I reread Sandra's words:
>
> <<< "If you keep putting him in programs and classes, you're not giving
> > unschooling a chance to work its wonders in your family. For some reason,
> > you keep quitting unschooling.">>>
> >
>
> -=-I don't want to quit unschooling, and I don't want them to quit taekwondo
> (at least not the first month). -=-
>
> That quote was about someone with really young children who was putting them in 'enrichment classes'--a schoolish situation, with academics separated from arts, but with academics. I don't think it applies to martial arts.
>
> -=-And he would love to see them
> *do* SOMETHING because that's what everybody else does. All the other
> (schooled) kids are good at *something* ours don't excel at anything.
> -=-
>
> WHOA! ALL the schooled kids are good at something?
> All "the other" kids where?
>
> Will your kids be required to compete with school kid? And imaginary school kids? Or just the set of school kids who are "good at something," ignoring all the poor school kids who have papers to prove they are NOT good at ANYthing? That's a very bad idea. It's not my opinion. I'm not qualifying that. To shame (subtly or overtly) or pressure children to keep up with the theoretical, imaginary Jones kids is not going to lead to better relationships.
>
> -=- I just hope that my children will find an activity they
> want to stick with for a while and learn a lot about it.-=-
>
> Think about why you want that.
> If they do it because you want it, it won't be the same as if you TRULY let them find something they like and accept that they might only like it for a month, or maybe for 40 years.
>
> Think of what you mean by "an activity," too.
>
> What if one likes to draw, at home, with cheap pencils on cheap paper?
> What if one wants to learn to play guitar, at home, alone? That used to come out of books and fingering charts, but now there are countless videos online of people showing how to play some particular song, or to tune or string a guitar. Would that be "an activity"?
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"lalow" <lalougor@...> wrote:
>
> I recently have been thinking about signing my daughter up for a writing workshop. She is 7.... I think she would enjoy it, just like she likes to take art classes sometimes.
****************

What does she think? There's a difference between "putting" a kid in a class and offering it as an opportunity. So where does "signing her up" fall for you? Is it something you'd do without consulting her? If she wants to join, but then changes her mind, are you likely to push her to stick it out? What's the setup of the class like? Can she drop in and out? If she can, but you're flinching about the cost of those "missed" classes, that could get in the way of trust on both sides.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

Katrine Clip <katrine@...> wrote:
>My husband and I don't like to let them quit since it was their
> idea, and they do really like it - it's transitioning and getting out of the
> house that's the hard part. Once they are there it's all fun and they get a
> lot out of it.

Sometimes breaking things down into separate issues can help you deal with things better - a set of small problems to overcome can seem easier than one big, massive, convoluted issue.

It might help to focus more on working to make transitions easier and more pleasant, if that's the main issue. What would help those transitions? Can you set things up so everything they need is in the car and all they have to do is get in? Can they bring games or whatever along in the car?

> I don't want to quit unschooling, and I don't want them to quit taekwondo
> (at least not the first month).

Actually dropping the class is a different issue. Is there a chance that one or both the kids needs more time at home? Can you cut down Other outtings so that the one day out in the week is taekwondo?

Another thought is - are you equating wanting to miss a class or two here and there with "quitting"? Plenty of adults drop in and out of classes, and kids classes often have a high degree of redundancy in them. Would it really hurt anything to go every other week?

Yet another thought is to ask if you can pay by the class, knowing your kids are only up for a 3 or 4 week run of classes rather than 8 or 12 or whatever the classes run. Some teachers don't like that - it costs them money, after all, when people drop - but others are okay with it. Depending on the studio, maybe you can ask friends for their "guest" passes and use those to let your kids take just a few classes at a time.

>>One of the rules at taekwondo is to commit to at
> least 2 times a week.

Woops, didn't see that before - twice a week could be a big part of the problem, honestly. Can you find another class or program? That's a setup for quick student burnout!

---Meredith

lalow

No I wouldnt sign her up if she doesnt want to go. She likes the idea, but more from a social view. If she ever wants to skip I have no reason to push her to go because I pay for each class that she attends. But dont have to pay for the ones she misses. The woman that teaches the class is very laid back and nothing is absolutly required of the kids as far as writing is concerned. It is really just a time to get together with other kids that are writing with the tools to write and draw. My oldest son took the class at one point and he liked it for awhile. Then he quit. There was an expectation to draw or write or look at books, they couldnt just go and play anything in the house and disrupt the workshop. But there was no pressure to be at a certain level, write if you didnt want to etc..
He didnt write much that I remember but he drew alot of pictures. He liked the stories she read and he enjoyed seeing his friends there. He quit after awhile.

k

>>>Instead of looking at what they don't do, look at what they DO do.<<<

This is definitely something I want to put on my Unschool Quote-arama in
Facebook, Glenda. Let me know if that's good with you. It's a really good
one!

~Katherine



On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 4:16 AM, wtexans <wtexans@...> wrote:

> ===my 9 year old boys can't stay with any activity for long===
>
> That's a "never" phrase.
>
> Think about the things that are their passion, and think about how long
> they enjoy doing THOSE things.
>
> My son was passionate about all-things-Pokemon for a solid 5 years. He
> could spend long stretches of time in a day involved with Pokemon stuff:
> action figures, videos/dvds, find-the-Pokemon books, looking through the
> Pokemon guide, playing Pokemon games, puttering around with Pokemon art,
> putting together his Pokemon "dream team", etc.
>
> He's been passionate about video games since he was, gosh, 3 or 4 years
> old; now he's 12-1/2. That passion has blossomed into a variety of
> directions.
>
> Consider that passion may not necessarily happen for your kids for what you
> currently consider "an activity". Re-define "activity."
>
>
> ===My husband and I don't like to let them quit since it was their idea,
> and they do really like it===
>
> If you don't let them quit when they express a desire to do so, they may
> quit coming to you with their ideas of things they'd like to try.
>
> They've taken taekwondo before so they know what to expect. When they took
> it before, it sounds like that was before you began unschooling ("they did
> it for a year 3 or 4 years ago"). So maybe they didn't have the option to
> quit at that time, or maybe they enjoyed it and didn't want to quit until
> they'd been doing it for a year. Maybe they're more comfortable now, now
> that you're unschooling, expressing their desire to quit. Maybe what they
> expect from the class is different than what they expected 3 or 4 years ago,
> and it's not meeting their expectations this time around.
>
> Perhaps they like parts of it, but not so much that they're especially
> excited about going. Maybe what they're doing at home is more fun than
> taekwondo. Why penalize them for that?
>
>
> ===Once they are there it's all fun and they get a lot out of it.===
>
> Is that your opinion, or have they actually said it's all fun and they get
> a lot out of it???
>
> My thinking is that if it's "all fun", they'd not be wanting to quit.
>
>
> ===All the other (schooled) kids are good at *something* ours don't excel
> at anything===
>
> Wow, that sentence is just full of "all or nothing"-ness.
>
> *ALL* of the schooled kids are good at something??? Each and every one???
>
> You really cannot think of things at which your kids are excellent???
>
> I don't know if my son would meet a school's criteria for "excel", but I
> know he's excellent at cracking me up, he's excellent at feeling compassion
> for others, he has a knack for spelling, he reads well, he can add and
> subtract in his head quicker than I, he's surpassed me in his ability to
> figure out computer stuff, he's a rock-solid gamer, he can budget his
> spending money better than I, he sings really well (which is interesting
> since neither his dad nor I are musically-inclined), he's really sweet and
> kind to younger kids, and so on.
>
> You've made a couple statements that indicate you see your kids as lacking.
> Instead of looking at what they don't do, look at what they DO do.
>
> Glenda
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wtexans

===Glenda: Instead of looking at what they don't do, look at what they DO do.===

===Katherine: This is definitely something I want to put on my Unschool Quote-arama in Facebook, Glenda. Let me know if that's good with you. It's a really good one!===

You surely may =).

Glenda

k

Pam, I second the recommendation for the book Refuse to Choose. It has
lightened my load and now I can "Jill of all Trades" about myself happily.
My dad is definitely a "Jack of all Trades" and the list of his
accomplishments is pretty incredible. It's not about being a finisher of
what one begins but becoming more adept at picking up and putting down, like
shuffling cards and dealing them again and again to see what seems like a
good plan for right now. Because some things may come up only to be put down
for the time being since another thing seems more pressing.

Right now, if you have only been thinking about and practicing unschooling a
short while, reading a bit, wait and watching to see how it lands in a
variety of situations, then there's still plenty of room to see how things
pan out in good and not so good ways, lots of time to change your mind about
whether your kids are good at things...

Stop right now and see if that thought can settle in: trust that children
want to learn; trust that children's capacity to learn is greater than what
you can see with your own eyes; be on the alert for it. This is so that you
can enjoy it and so that unschooling doesn't look to you like shooting in
the dark. Read the John Holt book (it's short) How Children Learn.

Take your eyes off specific activities while in this first stage
http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages

Think about how the principles of unschooling play into your ability to do
the act(ivity) of unschooling: Pick ideas up and consider them at length
before quitting unschooling. Let things percolate a bit as you mosey along.
Relax.

http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>Woops, didn't see that before - twice a week could be a big part of the
problem, honestly. Can you find another class or program? That's a setup for
quick student burnout!<<<

That's a lot for 9 year olds. Just because a studio wants more commitment
(more money?) doesn't mean that it's preferable for 9 year olds, either
yours or other 9 year olds. This might be another instance of equating all
kids as the same and putting them in the same boat/box. Most kids taking
these classes are school children. Without school comparisons, how would
taking these classes look? After all, unschooling is living as though school
doesn't exist. The more precedence you give school in your lives, the less
precedence unschooling can have.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

There it is and if the intro for it should be re-worded let me know:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=166856207674&v=wall

~Katherine



On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 3:29 PM, wtexans <wtexans@...> wrote:

> ===Glenda: Instead of looking at what they don't do, look at what they DO
> do.===
>
> ===Katherine: This is definitely something I want to put on my Unschool
> Quote-arama in Facebook, Glenda. Let me know if that's good with you. It's a
> really good one!===
>
> You surely may =).
>
> Glenda
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

shirarocklin

I don't think I was careful enough with my words. I didn't write clearly.

--- Just because someone pays to have a child in a class, or with a one-on-one teacher, that doesn't make that person "the boss."
> If someone pays to come to a conference to hear me speak, that doesn't make them the boss--not even a shareholder--in what I say or do while I'm presenting.---

I didn't literally say 'boss' to her, and I should have been clearer. I don't assume that as an unschooler I can tailor other people's interactions with my children. The class was nearly empty, the other two children had dropped out. She was already just playing in the water, but there was some pressure to put her head under, or let him take her to the deep-end and practice kicking. I judged that in that particular situation is was appropriate to ask for changes, if she would want me or her to. I don't think there is anything wrong with a child or parent asking an instructor to do something a little differently. They can always say no, or the child can leave the class if it doesn't work for them. I was offering her ideas/possibilities... she chose the option to leave.

--- In a group situation such as a swimming class, or music or art or anything else physical and easily disrupted, for one child to say "My mom says I don't have to do this" could disrupt the whole thing.---

Maybe she sensed that and that's why she wouldn't say it... I suspect it was just her shyness. But she was already resisting the instructor's pressure to do the swim lesson stuff, not letting him pull her into deeper water, anyhow, just playing on the shallow steps, and it didn't seem to bother the instructor. He only had 3 kids to start, and at her last class she was the only kid who showed up.

Rather than the option being for a child to say "My mom says I don't have to do this," I was imagining a child or parent speaking with the instructor about their discomfort with some aspect of the instruction. Teacher's seem (in my experience) to like some feedback and discussion about how much enjoyment a child is getting from a class, or what they might like done differently. Thats not the same as demanding changes, or expecting special privelages.

---Unschoolers don't gain special privileges in the world. My kids have mentioned before that it seems to them some unschoolers get (or are explicitly given) the idea that they are unschoolers now, and the rules don't apply to them anymore. WRONG! Their parents can change things around at home, but their authority doesn't extend past that, or their own interactions with their children.---

I definitely realized this early on. When my father or brother or sister are with them, I can't ask them to do what I would do. The same goes for instructors in classes we go to. I don't think we have special privelages... and I do think we need to go along with the rules and courtesies of the places and situations we are in (or leave if not). But I also think that there is room to ask for change, in many situations.

---If a parent wants to find a play-partner or informal instructor, the thing to do is to ask the questions in advance, before money is discussed, and not assume that a pre-designed group situation will be customized for one child just because her mom's philosophy has changed.---

With city classes, which we can afford, this can't be done. Its an automated sign up system, and you don't know the instructor until you show up. Its a big city with many community centres. Also, I didn't assume she wouldn't want to swim the way they designed the class. She really wanted to go to a swim class... so she went, with my help in signing up. It wasn't what she thought it would be. Nothing lost.

I think that in any situation where there is an 'instructor,' we've signed up, and my child says she wants to be there, it would be appropriate to speak to the teacher if something wasn't working well for my child. If the teacher says 'no,' maybe because the change would be disruptive for the other children, then ok. But that may not be the case. It might be fine. I don't see a problem with asking.

--- So, its nice to know that those hours are filled with something interesting that she loves to do, while I learn how to strew during the rest of our time. -=-

--- I don't think you can learn to strew while she's not there. IF she's having fun, then great, but if you really want to move to unschooling, being with your daughter and helping that relationship blossom into something glorious is what it takes. ---

I didn't write that sentence clearly. I meant that during the rest of our week I am actively creating a fun life for us, working on doing that better and more all the time. Her drama class is there because she wanted and enjoys it. During the time of the class, I can have some one on one time with the 2 year old as well, and if he's sleeping, I can go up to the library and browse, or go have a quiet cup of coffee. I'm not studying strewing while she's in a class. I agree with what you wrote, Sandra, in order to make our relationship grow, and strewing grow, we have to be together... and we are, almost always.

--- In the "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch" model, it sounds like you're wanting to read a lot, while they're in classes. I could be wrong, but if your kid are thinking in ANY way that those classes are the reason they're learning, and those things couldn't have been gathered other ways, that could be a problem. ---

The classes are fun for her. She enjoys herself and wants to go. I don't think of it in educational terms... its more arts and crafts, story time, singing, etc, in a group with other kids. Its just one more fun thing to add to our week, one more interesting experience that we could let go of if it weren't interesting or joyful anymore.

I agree, if someone put their child in a 'Creative Playtime" class (which is somewhat like a preschool class) in order to 'make sure' their kid was learning at least something, while they learn about unschooling, that wouldn't make much sense at all.

I have another thought, but I'm going to post it seperately, in a minute.

Thanks,
Shira Rocklin

teresa

I still have a few other posts to read in this thread, so please forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I wanted to pipe in here regarding your husband's concerns that your kids wouldn't get good at anything if they didn't find something and stick with it.

I wasn't unschooled, but I most definitely was a "quitter" as a kid! I tried tap and jazz, ballet, gymnastics, horseback riding, drawing, creative writing, pottery, drama, soccer, piano, and cake decorating as a young person. (And I'm probably leaving a few out!) None did I stick with for longer than a single session (sometimes one, sometimes a handful of classes). And my mom never pushed me. She thought if I wanted to go, fine, if I didn't, that was fine, too. And I remember in my late teens, I got upset at her for this. I wanted to be good at something like so many of my friends were. But she was adamant that she didn't want to push me into anything, that it felt wrong to her.

And somewhere through my 20's, I figured some things out, and I started pursuing things I really wanted to do. Lo and behold, I got really good at some things! I'm a very good knitter. I'm a very good gardener. I'm a very good baker. I'm a very good writer. And I dabble still in some childhood interests, drawing and pottery. Some things I taught myself, other things I learned from other people and in classes.

I don't know if it's really such an advantage for kids to get good at certain valued skills (such as music, art, or athletics) as kids if it creates friction with a parent. Most of the people I know who had advanced skills as children no longer practice those skills, or else speak of their mastery in a wistful, used-to-be-really-good kind of a way. It makes me wonder, if their parents had known that was a possibility, if they would have pushed their children, or laid on guilt trips, or set up arbitrary requirements.

I think, for me, it boils down to the fact that whatever interests my kids have now may or may not stick, and they may or may not add to the child's overall enjoyment of life or enrichment as people, but their relationship with me has to last them their whole life. It may not seem like a big deal to insist on taking classes that are paid for, etc., but I don't want to set up a situation where my kids are thinking $20 or $40 or $60 is worth more to me than their well-being.

Teresa
(Woody, 5, Fox, 2)


--- In [email protected], Katrine Clip <katrine@...> wrote:
>
> I have been thinking of this too:
>
> <<... a fear a mother had that her child who left an enrichment program
> > would adopt habits of not finishing things and become "a quitter,">>>
> >
>
> We have been unschooling for a year now, and my 9 year old boys can't stay
> with any activity for long. I got a lot of criticism from my inlaws for
> allowing the boys to try out and then quit one sport/activity after the
> other. Now they are doing taekwondo, because they asked to do it and wanted
> it intensely (they did it for a year 3 or 4 years ago). They love the
> uniforms! Well, two weeks into the membership one of them doesn't want to go
> much anymore, and influences the other so sometimes he doesn't want to
> either. My husband and I don't like to let them quit since it was their
> idea, and they do really like it - it's transitioning and getting out of the
> house that's the hard part. Once they are there it's all fun and they get a
> lot out of it.
>
> I find it difficult to find the balance between encouraging them to go and
> not force them. My husband thinks we need to apply some pressure because we
> all know how fun it is once they're there... I don't like to force them at
> all. But I give them my opinion, what I know, that they are having fun there
> and meeting other kids. One of the rules at taekwondo is to commit to at
> least 2 times a week. Other rules are that they have to say "Yes, sir" and
> "Yes, m'am", bow, and pay attention to what the instructor says. They have
> no problems with this in class, just *getting to* class!
>
> And then I reread Sandra's words:
>
> <<< "If you keep putting him in programs and classes, you're not giving
> > unschooling a chance to work its wonders in your family. For some reason,
> > you keep quitting unschooling.">>>
> >
>
> I don't want to quit unschooling, and I don't want them to quit taekwondo
> (at least not the first month). It's also a problem between my husband and I
> in how to deal with this, he prefers action and decision making (he liked
> parts of what the "tiger mom" wrote and thought she had a point about
> persevering and learning through practice). And he would love to see them
> *do* SOMETHING because that's what everybody else does. All the other
> (schooled) kids are good at *something* ours don't excel at anything.
>
> I remember well how it was growing up with a controlling father who forced
> me to do activities I didn't care for, I'm more willing to accept my
> children's choices and not forcing them. I'm not competitive and I don't
> care if the neighbors' kids are great athletes, and play instruments well.
> Their mom yells and threatens and spanks. I am happy that we have a better
> relationship here. I just hope that my children will find an activity they
> want to stick with for a while and learn a lot about it.
>
> -Katrine
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

Teresa wrote two really wonderful things. I've flipped them.

-= It may not seem like a big deal to insist on taking classes that are paid for, etc., but I don't want to set up a situation where my kids are thinking $20 or $40 or $60 is worth more to me than their well-being.-=-

One visit with a counsellor, even if a family has insurance of it's a company benefit, is probably $35 at least.

My favorite analogies are a dozen donuts, and poison. No parent would force a child to finish a dozen donuts just because they had been on sale and the kid wanted two donuts. No parent knowing a child was having a horrible reaction to medication would make him finish the rest of the bottle just because it was already paid for. No one would say "Don't be a quitter" about donuts or health-risking medicine. I've never heard a parent say "You bought that carton of cigarettes, so if you quit smoking now it will have been a waste of good money. Don't be a quitter."

-=-I don't know if it's really such an advantage for kids to get good at certain valued skills (such as music, art, or athletics) as kids if it creates friction with a parent. Most of the people I know who had advanced skills as children no longer practice those skills, or else speak of their mastery in a wistful, used-to-be-really-good kind of a way. It makes me wonder, if their parents had known that was a possibility, if they would have pushed their children, or laid on guilt trips, or set up arbitrary requirements. -=-

it's not just "a possibility" that a child who is an athlete in school or plays in band or orchestra or piano recitals or is in high school theatre productions will not do that thing anymore as an adult. It's practically a guarantee. Compared to the number of kids in school who would rather be involved in music or sports than not, there are almost zero opportunities for real-life application of those skills.

There was a time when every church and every Sunday School class needed someone to play the piano, but now many churches have audio-visual screens with the music playing and the hymn lyrics scrolling (or they have electric guitars). If a city is large enough to maintain an orchestra, or a musical theatre company with live musicians, the performances are rare, and the musicians are drawn from all ages of a large population. Even if a single high school district somehow kept an orchestra of their best-of former students, the "student population" of all years in the past would be much larger than a static moment of a three- or four-year institution.

Some unschooling kids' parents are involved in theatre or music or sports. More are not.
ANY parent who does not, himself, actively participate in performances or competitive sports or martial arts or dance should probably not even think about forcing or pressing and unschooled child to do that. In the absence of the benefit of it getting a child out of class, the value changes greatly.

http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Something about why to avoid classes early on:


I [Sandra Dodd] lifted that from a discussion at www.unschooling.com to bring here because it kind of ties together two things that've happened on this list lately, and might be a missing piece to several people's puzzles, if not this week, someone's someday.

If people learn to use "learn" instead of "teach," it helps them move to another angle, to see things through a different lens.

Some people see experienced unschoolers ("experienced" meaning in this context people who have done it well and effortlessly for years, who aren't afraid anymore, who have seen inspiring results) mention classes, and they think "Ah, well if the experienced unschoolers' kids take classes, then classes are good/necessary/no problem."

But if beginners don't go through a phase in which they REALLY focus on seeing learning outside of academic formalities, they will not be able to see around academics. If you turn away from the academics and truly, really, calmly and fully believe that there is a world that doesn't revolve around or even require or even benefit from academic traditions, *then* after a while you can see academics (research into education, or classes, or college) from another perspective.

Once there was heavy fog at our house. Kirby was four or five. He had never seen it at all, and this was as thick as I have ever seen fog. He wanted to go and touch it. I yelled "Let's go!" and we ran up the road, and ran, and ran. About seven houses up we got tired, and I said "Look" and pointed back toward our house, which was gone in the fog.

I did NOT say "See? You can't touch it, really, it's touching us, it's all around us."
I didn't say "Let's don't bother, it's just the same wherever in there you are."

I let him experience the fog. He learned by running in fog and smelling it, and losing his house in it.

For someone who has been out of and away from school for six months to take a class will not be the same experience as someone (child or parent) who has been out and away for eight or ten years. It will be different in very, very profound ways. And "profound" doesn't show from the house. You have to run until you can't see the house, and then profundity kicks in.

If anyone who understands what I'm saying can think of another way to say it, help would be great. If anyone doesn't understand what I'm saying, I recommend a full break-away from attachment to academics.

There are several sayings about the journey of a lifetime beginning with a single step and such. One step isn't the beginning of a journey if you keep one foot in the yard. You have to get away from the starting point completely.


Sandra


http://sandradodd.com/peace/newview

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k

>>>If anyone who understands what I'm saying can think of another way to say
it, help would be great. If anyone doesn't understand what I'm saying, I
recommend a full break-away from attachment to academics.<<<

>>>There are several sayings about the journey of a lifetime beginning with
a single step and such. One step isn't the beginning of a journey if you
keep one foot in the yard. You have to get away from the starting point
completely.<<<

Here's one such saying which seems to represent a lot about the unschooling
journey ---once you know the rest of the story:

He used often to say there was only one Road; that it was like a great
river: it's springs were at every doorstep and every path was it's
tributary. "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door," he
used to say. "You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there
is no telling where you might be swept off to." ~~*The Lord of the Rings* Frodo
about his uncle Bilbo Baggins

~Katherine


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[email protected]

< But if beginners don't go through a phase in which they REALLY focus on
seeing learning outside of academic formalities, they will not be able to
see around academics. >

Sandra, you've really set me thinking about something that's been nagging
at me for a long time. Which is that I feel that we've never effectively
deschooled at least partly because of her existing non-school activities.

When we took Jess out of school, she was already a long-term and
enthusiastic participant in a regular weekend music programme. Some of this is all
about kids playing together for fun, but it's underpinned by an assumption
that the young musicians are there to learn from expert older musicians.
It does involve taking classes and, as a matter of course, they take graded
exams in the same way that kids who do karate do belts. Now, we could
rethink her musical activities, but as she enjoys what she does there and has
some quite long-established friendships there (which were a point of sanity
when school was becoming an endless source of stress) we thought it'd be
best to leave well alone ... But I can't see how it'll do anything but
reinforce the schooled mindset.

In the last few months, Jess has chosen to do some more academic things
and we've supported her, thinking, yeah, fine - her choice, therefore it's
autonomous. She was always more likely to have her nose in a book or a video
game than climbing a tree, so perhaps it's to do with her nature. But if
we've never fully stepped outside of the academic way of thinking, how
autonomous is it? And at this stage, with an almost 14-year-old whose networks
are already in place and who has an expectation that she really would like
to go to university, can we really question this and do anything effective
about it? She does really enjoy what she does and she seems to have a
clear idea of what she wants. But after 7 years in school (where music and
academics were seen as her forte) and further time continuing with some
regular activities, how far have we already set the parameters of what she'll
seek?

Jude




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Sandra Dodd

-=-When we took Jess out of school, she was already a long-term and
enthusiastic participant in a regular weekend music programme. Some of this is all
about kids playing together for fun, but it's underpinned by an assumption
that the young musicians are there to learn from expert older musicians. -=-

But if she likes that and she was already involved, I don't think it's a problem.

If I took a child out of school and then looked around hard for a music program, it might suggest to the child that I thought music was something they couldn't possibly learn about in the "normal world." But I don't think you're describing that sort of fear or confusion.

Sandra

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