Sandra Dodd

Some people see "speaking plainly and directly" and think of a total speech, a lecture, a harangue, a talking-to.
I don't.
I consider those speeches, tirades, lectures, harangues...

I like Bob Collier's bi-weekly newsletter and site, http://www.parental-intelligence.com/
I mostly like it when it has a link to my page or Joyce's, and often those links are to thinks people like Pam or others wrote. This las issue, though, had a bit that made me follow the link. Neither the mention nor the page had a date. Usually that's cool. I don't mind when he links to something five or ten years old that's new to him or will be new to the readers.

Here's the thing, though, that made me look harder and rear my head back and look again:

-------------------
Praising our Children: Manipulation or Celebration?
by Jan Hunt

In recent years, some writers have recommended that parents abstain from praise as well as criticism. They see praise as a form of parental manipulation of the child's behavior - more subtle than blame and criticism, but harmful nonetheless. I have certainly seen parents use praise in this way. But I have also seen it take place in a way that I consider normal and healthy. After much thought, I've come to believe that avoidance of praise in toto is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". While we should of course refrain from harmful, artificial kinds of praise, there does exist a more genuine variety that springs from the heart in a joyful way, and that gives our children what they most need: our genuine loving support.
-------------------
Then were was a link with Read more... and the link is
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/praise.html

------------------------------------

This is the line that jumped out and scared me:

"After much thought, I've come to believe that avoidance of praise in toto is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

After HOW much thought? How much thought does it take to know that IF someone decided to avoid praise entirely that that was going too far?

I've read the anti-praise writings, and the advice to elementary-school art teachers, and the danger of over-praising half-assed work in high schoolers, and I understand (well and personally) the longterm problems that can come from rewarding children with little things like gold stars, 100%, A+ and little stickers that say *fantastic!* with a happy face.

But the idea that someone advising parents had to think much in order to accept that sometimes praise could be genuine and spontaneous and real did honestly surprise me.

So I wrote to a friend of mine to express my confused alarm (or whatever it was I was having). I wrote "I was thinking of discussing it at Always Learning, but it could be ten years old; can't tell."

This response came:
"It is in her book that was published in 2001. But, still worth discussing."

So it's ten years old. I felt better. Kind of. I felt better than I did when I thought that for ten years that site might have been saying "don't praise children" and just lately after much thought the author was thinking better of that advice.

And I wondered how much praise I do of my now-grown children. I do some! When we left a multi-family gathering last month, I told my kids I was proud of them, and thanked them for not embarrassing me. :-) They know me well enough to take it as it was, and I'm sure they were glad I didn't embarrass them either. When we got home I thanked Keith for getting us all home safely, and then I went (back) to sleep. Somewhere in my life, "thank you" is mixed in with praise.

I praise people who write on this list, or individual posts or phrases. And it's not manipulation in hopes that they will write more, or write again. It is probably encouraging, but I don't do it in order "to encourage more." (Thinking back to the rage/questions topic of the past few days.)

I have spoken for years against the use of poodle-voice praise (or poodle-voiced anything). But that has to do with speaking to a child as you would to spouse or a friend--to another real human being, rather than as to a dog. (I read lately a little bit about a family that's told their children that they are siblings of the family dogs, and they're raising their dogs as their children.... I'd be curious to know how they choose to speak to all those canine and human children in the same tone of voice--which way it leans. They weren't froofie little poodles, though, I'm pretty sure, if that makes a difference.)

My site has been gathering more dates on entries, though I've tried to furnish dates on many of the quotes and passages I save, and sometimes links to the discussion it came from.

So...
I don't like the good examples give on that page. The site itself is very useful, and the author's a nice person. It just surprised me that this was a "much thought" items, and that the examples don't sound natural and real.

Sandra




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Marina DeLuca-Howard

I am glad you posted this because its a great topic for discussion. No irony
intended, although I suspect most people will smile at my first sentence...

It always strikes me as odd that we can thank and praise most people
spontaneously, but not kids. You can tell a friend she looks pretty in her
new dress or a partner what a brilliant idea he has expressed, but should
stop yourself and consult experts before doing this with a child. Children
may require of everything from us because they aren't our equals, but
certainly they can receive as much respect as we are willing to give them.

I personally never told my sons: "good boy". It always made me cringe as a
child, and still does because it sounds like something people say to dogs.
Poodles or not:)

I have said "thanks for doing it my way, because I know you would have
rather done xyz". I have always listened and been willing to discuss xyz,
just sometimes it didn't work out and as the parent I had to make sure the
child's basic needs were covered by the actions in question. IE Kids
wanting to climb a fence far off the ground with a big big drop on to
concrete, in a place where climbing was not allowed vs climbing a tree in a
playground or a swing set.

I have said thanks to my husband for staying up later, letting me choose the
restaurant or following one of my whims instead of one of his:) I have
apologised when wrong. Denying my kids the chance for normal human
interaction sees silly. So, why not thank them, appreciate them, apologise
to them and honour them as people? Listening to our children's desires and
giving sympathy, expressing concern love and appreciation for who they are
seems like a no-brainer. Thanking them and telling them how much they are
loved and admired seems reasonable for a parent to want to do on occasion
and I can't imagine how "experts" could be debating this and parents could
be feeling bad for loving and appreciating their kids!

Marina


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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I have actually talked to Jan Hunt years ago about exactly that article. We were
just chating on the phone about it.
She was writing that because of someone she knows that  has taken it to extremes
and that writes about attachment parenting and raising children.
And because many read the book this person wrote and also take it that way.


 
Alex Polikowsky

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Sandra Dodd

The poodle voice writing from last time (or one of those times) is on http://sandradodd.com/tone
but I'll quote that part here, with two brief notes at the bottom.
--------------------


Even the nicest of words can be ruined, though, if they're spoken in a condescending, treacly way. It's not bad for infants, and it's great for French poodles. It's that talking-to-a-French-poodle voice, and the thoughts that go with it, that should be avoided when parents are talking to their children. Dan Vilter shared this story on the AlwaysLearning list in 2001:
At a park day, we were having a discussion about the usefulness of praise and sincerity. The unschoolers in the group were trying to point out the fallacy of over and insincere praise, and indirectly about treating your children as people first. After much talk getting nowhere, one of the other unschooling parents turned to me and in the French poodle voice started thanking me for all the things I had done for the group that day. Something like,"Oh Dan, thank you for bringing the stove for hot cocoa. You did such a good job setting it up and heating the water! You're so strong carrying that big jug of water all by yourself!" Everyone had a good laugh and the point was succinctly made.
�Dan Vilter

"Treating them as people first." That's it. See them as people, who hear you and are thinking, and treat that respectfully. In her bookWhole Child/Whole Parent, Polly Berrien Berends, uses the term "Seeing Beings."

This is nice, from Amazon, when I went to get the URL for people interested in knowing more about this book:
Statistically Improbable Phrases (SIPs):
freeing parent, nursing parent, sailor dog, conscious oneness, seeing being, silent knowing
Even thinking the thoughts "seeing being," "silent knowing" and "conscious oneness" are helpful to me. I'll have to look again to find "sailor dog." Here's a quote from a review by a dad in Illinois:
"The philosophy of this book re-shaped my entire view of life and parenthood. Basically, once you realize that life with kids is ALL about the kids, frustration melts away and is replaced with infinite joy."
===============================================

I'm pretty sure the parent who spoke to Dan in the poodle voice as a demonstration was Pam Sorooshian.

The dad in Illinois quoted near the end was Lyle Perry. Many people here will remember him. I heard from him last week. His family is all together still, the boys didn't go to school, one of them is writing, his wife has her medical problems from before, but with better medications, and they are dealing now with breast cancer, but getting along with her parents now. Back when he was writing about unschooling, they all lived in Illinois near the in-laws. Then Lyle and Mary and the boys moved to Utah, and Colorado, and now all are in Florida. Lyle's working in advertising again, too, but also wrote "And since we're down in here in retired people heaven, I'm also doing some condo repair/maintenance on the side. There are some real idiots down here driving around with signs on their trucks, claiming to be "maintenance specialists". I get to follow them around and fix the stuff they screw up. I don't advertise, but word-of-mouth is getting me more business than I actually want. Not sure what I'm going to do about that."

I always loved Lyle's writing, and he says his son's writing is better, so those who follow new authors might see if you hear of Dylan Perry at some point. His dad's stuff, what I was able to save, is here: http://sandradodd.com/lyleperry

Sandra

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k

>>>After HOW much thought? How much thought does it take to know that IF
someone decided to avoid praise entirely that that was going too far?<<<

So many people don't know the difference between conditioning others through
praise and not seeking to control but simply expressing gratitude and having
a celebration.

I think to celebrate or be grateful could be separate from praise instead of
using a word that has unhelpful connotations for me. It's wrapped up in
religion and it isn't one I use much.

~Katherine


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Sandra Dodd

-=-I think to celebrate or be grateful could be separate from praise instead of
using a word that has unhelpful connotations for me. It's wrapped up in
religion and it isn't one I use much.-=-

So I'm thinking it's about saying "thanks!" and you/k are thinking it's about praise him, praise him, jesus-our-blesséd-redeemer?

That hadn't crossed my mind.
Now it has.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-Denying my kids the chance for normal human
interaction sees silly. So, why not thank them, appreciate them, apologise
to them and honour them as people? Listening to our children's desires and
giving sympathy, expressing concern love and appreciation for who they are
seems like a no-brainer. Thanking them and telling them how much they are
loved and admired seems reasonable for a parent to want to do on occasion
and I can't imagine how "experts" could be debating this and parents could
be feeling bad for loving and appreciating their kids!-=-

I think it's because people try to extend research done on and advice aimed at teachers in classroom situations to parent-and-child homeschooled relationships. and then WORSE, some extend it to parent/child relations with kids not old enough to be in school and WORST, to unschooling families.

So...
Because it was on Bob Collier's site (hi, Bob; sorry I figure you're reading), it seemed (to me) to be news. Much of his stuff IS new and news.

Even really old things are worth considering. I've read some 19th century parenting advice that ranged from crazy-punitive to modern-practical and progressive.

I was surprised at it altogether, and then I was surprised that it was old. :-) Better older than newer, in this case.

Sandra

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otherstar

>>>>"After much thought, I've come to believe that avoidance of praise in toto is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

After HOW much thought? How much thought does it take to know that IF someone decided to avoid praise entirely that that was going too far?<<<<

I can see why somebody would say that it took some thought to come to that conclusion. I am going to share a story from when I lived with my mother-in-law for 4 months. She was the queen of praise. If I did my own laundry, she would tell me what a good girl I was. If my girls did anything that was remotely nice or good, she would tell them, "good girl". I felt like everything that she said was either a hollow praise or some kind of criticism. I honestly don't think that she knows how to praise without being condescending. I don't think she is capable of simply saying, "thank you." For her and the people around her, avoiding praise all together would be a step in the right direction. She is so programmed to punish and reward that it has become second nature and the only way to deprogram would be to avoid it.

As I was thinking about this, I remembered the Three Stages of Unschooling that is seen here: http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages

I am wondering if stepping away from the idea of praise for a while would be helpful for those that are completely entrenched in the idea that kids must be praised. Only after you step away from it and completely stop it for a while and allow yourself some time to be deprogrammed can you truly see the difference between real heartfelt praise and the poodle praise that people use to manipulate kids. You have to be able to step away from the box of praise and manipulation. After living with my mother-in-law, I avoided all praise. I had to purge that horrible experience from mind. I would thank my children but I tried to thank them like I would any other adult.

Now, I can use heartfelt praise without thinking twice about it. In order to get there, I had to do some self work and part of that self work involved abandoning it for a while so that I could think about it with a fresh perspective.

Connie

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Sandra Dodd

Thanks for telling that story, Connie. I've never been around someone who was fulltime smarmy with praise.

-=-After living with my mother-in-law, I avoided all praise. I had to purge that horrible experience from mind. I would thank my children but I tried to thank them like I would any other adult. -=-

Did that change, though?

-=-Now, I can use heartfelt praise without thinking twice about it. In order to get there, I had to do some self work and part of that self work involved abandoning it for a while so that I could think about it with a fresh perspective. -=-

That does make sense, to compare it to stages people need to go through.

There's a lot of all or nothing thinking in the world. Either praise every little thing, or praise nothing.

Balance, balance, balance.

http://sandradodd.com/balance

Sandra

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otherstar

>>>>Thanks for telling that story, Connie. I've never been around someone who was fulltime smarmy with praise.<<<<

I had never been around it before either. Growing up, my parents were probably the opposite extreme. If I didn't get all A's, they would say something negative. If I got all A's, that was expected and nothing was said. I asked my husband if his mom was always like that and he can't remember. He knows that she spanked but he can't remember if she has always praised like that or not because he has blocked out so much from his childhood. Based on my conversation with my husband, I think the smarmy praise may have been her trying to do better. She knew that she couldn't spank or smack my kids so she overused praise as an attempt to manipulate and discipline my children. I think she used the smarmy praise on me because she was trying to teach me how to be a better mom, a better wife, and a better housekeeper. From her point of view, she was trying to help and was doing it the only way she knew how.

Connie


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k

>>>So I'm thinking it's about saying "thanks!" and you/k are thinking it's
about praise him, praise him, jesus-our-bless�d-redeemer?<<<

Apparently I'm not the only one.

From googling the word "praise"-- definition snippets and prayerful images
(*wish* the images would work in Yahoo). I especially enjoyed the phrase "in
praise of condoms" which is a surprising image for that description.
Hilarious!

Other searchers will get different results but here are some that I got:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praise

to glorify (a god or saint) especially by the attribution of perfections.
intransitive verb. : to express *praise*. � prais�er noun *...
*www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/
*
*the act of expressing approval or admiration; commendation; laudation. 2.
the
offering of grateful homage in words or song, as an act of worship: a hymn
of *...
*dictionary.reference.com/browse/praise

Images (first page of hits):
Praise the Lord!
800 � 600 - 50k - jpg
followfaithfully.com
songs of praise: sunday march
639 � 639 - 35k
cubikmusik.typepad.com
In Praise of Condoms
656 � 732 - 456k - jpg
sirrichards.com
praise-the-lord
300 � 259 - 14k - jpg
blogs.bet.com
Praise
350 � 412 - 48k - jpg
sodahead.com
Saturday Psalm & Praise
812 � 609 - 1449k - bmp
dixonhomestead.com
With lifted hand let praise be
499 � 332 - 20k - jpg
eardstapa.wordpress.com
BPC Praise Team sings
1333 � 2022 - 288k - jpg
brickpresby.com
My cat is so persistent about
331 � 331 - 8k - jpg
spiritualbattleground....
praise.jpg (37278 bytes)
799 � 518 - 37k - jpg
westmorelandchurchofgo...
Praise
401 � 673 - 49k - jpg
rejoice-he-lives.com
If you have a praise to share
1139 � 1167 - 215k - jpg
lionandlambs.edublogs.org
Speaking Engagement Praise
310 � 388 - 27k - jpg
engagingconcepts.com
praise
322 � 266 - 43k - jpg
followfaithfully.com
Praise Photograph - Praise
600 � 432 - 29k - jpg
fineartamerica.com
Does Your Praise To God Lack
325 � 369 - 131k - jpg
dailywordofgodgroup.com
K-LOVE's Day of Praise!
500 � 375 - 72k - axd
klove.com
they hear praise music?
400 � 297 - 12k - jpg
youre-boring-me.blogsp...
praise. Voices of Praise
336 � 450 - 41k - jpg
pbcsmyrna.org
PRAISE HIM
800 � 533 - 1747k - png
myspace.com
to-the-praise-of-his-glory
787 � 619 - 47k - jpg
cbcfindlay.org

~Katherine


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Sandra Dodd

-=-So I'm thinking it's about saying "thanks!" and you/k are thinking it's
about praise him, praise him, jesus-our-blesséd-redeemer?<<<

-=-Apparently I'm not the only one.-=-

But you might have been until you suggested that it reminded you of religion, because I was totally NOT making that connection. They've like two whole different words and concepts to me, to praise someone for something they've done, and to "praise God." When people are praising God they're saying God is great, God is good. They're praising him to other people.

When you praise another person or your own child, it's usually to them directly, I think.

Sandra

k

>>> When you praise another person or your own child, it's usually to them
directly, I think.<<<

Karl likes it, either way, to him and to others. As long as he's not
expected to perform. For instance, since unschooling is hard to explain he
doesn't see it as a compliment at this point. So for now he sticks with
simply calling what he does homeschooling.

~Katherine


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Frankie Watt

Sandra said:-----
> There's a lot of all or nothing thinking in the world. Either praise
> every little thing, or praise nothing.
>
> Balance, balance, balance.
---------------

I've wondered at times if this is more prevalent in the US. On kids
shows like Dora, it is so apparent that my kids (aged 4 & 7) comment on
it. Dora will ask for help, for example to cool something down, and
then say "Yay! Good fanning!" It sounds so ridiculous sometimes that
after watching or reading Dora my kids will go round praising everything
each other does, like "Good farting!" or "Great spilling!" or whatever,
to make each other laugh.

I'm an English woman living in Ireland, and here adults will often say
to your child "You're the best boy!" or "She's the best girl!" when they
meet your kids. I have to say i didn't like this at first, but an
Irish-speaking friend of mine explained that it comes from a translation
from the Irish to English, and the word "best" in Irish means "choice" -
a bit like when a greengrocer says "best apples" or "choice grapes" or
whatever - it just means choice and special and lovely. So i guess
there is a cultural element too.

--
Frances

See my beautiful handmade cards here:
http://www.etsy.com/shop/ShineSpinner
--

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

Sandra Dodd

-=-watching or reading Dora my kids will go round praising everything
each other does, like "Good farting!" or "Great spilling!" or whatever,
to make each other laugh.-=-

I love those!

-=-I've wondered at times if this is more prevalent in the US.-=-

The level of praise, or the recommendations against it, or both?

I think it's common in many places for children to be treated as something other than real, whole people.

I'm guessing that in Ireland, even, strangers wouldn't say to you, with your husband standing there, "He's the best man!" If what they're saying to the kids is positive and kind, I don't think it's a bad thing at all, but beginning to see how adults can unwittingly be condescending to children is worth doing. I'm not saying never speak to a young child in a special kid-way, but some adults keep it a long time, and speak to 12 year olds that way, or they don't have options to turn it off or on.

If each communication is thoughtful and direct, there should be a variety of ways and reasons and tones of voice.

I'm veering away from praise-or-not-to-praise, but I have a story:

My husband was frustrated with me last night because when we were at Costco I picked up three things that weren't on the list that I thought we needed, and it turned out we didn't. We have a freezer in the garage, and I had finished all we had in the upstairs-in-the-kitchen fridge and freezer, and had reason to think we were out altogether. We weren't. It was corn dogs, bacon and butter. I knew he was not angry, but REALLY wished I hadn't done it. So I joked that I guess we needed to eat corndogs wrapped in bacon and fried in butter for a while. He said that didn't sound very good. I said they would all be used eventually.

For dinner we had roast beef, green beans and fried potatoes. When he was done, he said "That was good. I think it was a much better choice than the corndogs wrapped in bacon."

It was a nice way for us to get through that with some gentle humor.

We practiced on our kids, turning frustration into banter, and it has helped us, too.

Sandra

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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
>From: Frankie Watt <frankiewatt@...>

I have to say i didn't like this at first, but an
>Irish-speaking friend of mine explained that it comes from a translation
>from the Irish to English, and the word "best" in Irish means "choice" -
>a bit like when a greengrocer says "best apples" or "choice grapes" or
>whatever - it just means choice and special and lovely. So i guess
>there is a cultural element too.
>

And I'm sure a "family culture" element too. <ducking>

I know with my toddler, I can't help but exclaim as I'm hugging him that he's the best, sweetest, most gorgeous boy ever. I can't believe that that will give him performance anxiety. I'm sure as he grows older, the compliments will change in their tenor, though I have been known to grab my older sons like that and say those things. They mostly just laugh at me. ; )

Seriously, though, I think it can be an individual personality thing. My 9yo son...you have to be careful about the positive things you say to him, because he's so incredibly literal. If you say he's the most handsome (outside of the silliness above), he'll point out a list of ten people more handsome than he is. When I complimented his drumming one day, he said in a very negative tone, "You're just being *encouraging*!" Well, all right then. ; ) We do much better when he asks me what I think and I tell him, making very sure not to *overstate* anything positive.

For my 12yo son, he really wants to hear compliments throughout the day, though so much so that I wonder about where that need is coming from. Have to think more about that.

What I've found to be helpful is being specific in compliments, as opposed to the general "You're awesome!" Not in the weird, "I really like how you put your toothbrush back in the holder" way but in the "that's a really cool beat you found on your drum kit" way.

Not giving those compliments when I think of them would seem very false to me.

Michelle


Wife to Bob
Momma to George (12), Theo (9), Eli (6), and Oliver (18 mo)

If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true, and that's unacceptable.
-- Carrie Fisher

Karen James

> There's a lot of all or nothing thinking in the world. Either praise
> every little thing, or praise nothing.
>
> Balance, balance, balance.

In my husband and my families (Canadian), praise and criticism are used to
control children, and this behaviour is practiced with young and grown
children. I really noticed it the last time I visited. Actually, without
my fully understanding it, this pattern of relating to children was
something I was having a lot of anxiety about before visiting, especially
imagining it directed at our son. Most actions in our families are
evaluated as good or bad, and met with either high praise or condemnation.
For example, our son sat down to write something on a piece of paper and
that was met with a lot of attention and encouragement. In contrast, he
tried to engage them in a game he was playing on the iPad (Osmos--a very
interesting game), and was met with distance and discouraging words. He
helped with the dishes--praise. He didn't eat everything on his plate
during dinner--negative comments. He didn't seem to care to much either
way, because he is not exposed to this on a regular basis, but I was tied in
knots about it. At one point, my mom said to me (I'm 40 years old), "Good
girl" when I brought her a tea. A light bulb went off in my head at that
very moment. What I noticed about myself, was that I was constantly fishing
for the positive, and felt the need to hide what I knew would meet negative
reviews. I find this translates into my life away from parents. Not
balanced at all.

For a while I tried not to praise at all at home, but I realized we all like
the encouragement, when it comes from a sincere place, and not a place of
control. When my husband brings me a glass of water, and I am thirsty, I
will comment that I appreciate that gesture. When it is obvious my son
feels good about something that he has accomplished, I will celebrate with
him. That feels good to me, and it seems (I hope) like it isn't
manipulating anyone.

Karen.

----------
jamesfamilyedutrip.blogspot.com

>
>


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k

>>>At one point, my mom said to me (I'm 40 years old), "Good girl" when I brought her a tea. A light bulb went off in my head at that very moment. What I noticed about myself, was that I was constantly fishing for the positive, and felt the need to hide what I knew would meet negative reviews. I find this translates into my life away from parents. Not balanced at all.<<<

This is what I dealt with a lot and I'm sure I'll deal with it
somewhat ... thoughts that I'm not good if I do things my parents
wouldn't approve of. Even if I disagree with their opinions about it.
It's one of the reasons I don't visit very often and prefer to spend
holidays elsewhere except briefly. I don't love going to visit Brian's
side of the family because really they do the same business with
manipulating through approval (comments, smiles, hugs, nods) and
disapproval (silence, stillness, distance, disagreement).

I realize now that most of it is unconsciously done, not meaning to
manipulate but that it has a manipulative effect nonetheless.

Unschooling is disapproved of and I find myself doubling my efforts
when it's brought up to show how things are well. Like Scribblenauts
being what my dad thinks of as educational. His comment was that I
should narrow things down so that I'm doing only that sort of thing
for the sake of speeding up the education. I hope he understood when I
said that Karl learns so much more when he is unaware of the fact that
he's learning from fun things, and if I took away or limited
"non-educational" materials (things that don't have much schooling
emphasis) then Karl would start to desire only those things and feel
guilty for playing anything fun that might be educational unbeknown to
him.

>>>For a while I tried not to praise at all at home, but I realized we all like the encouragement, when it comes from a sincere place, and not a place of control. When my husband brings me a glass of water, and I am thirsty, I will comment that I appreciate that gesture. When it is obvious my son feels good about something that he has accomplished, I will celebrate with him. That feels good to me, and it seems (I hope) like it isn't manipulating anyone.<<<

This is pretty much how I handle it because I still find myself
unconsciously being dis/approving in a manipulative way if I'm not
careful how I'm thinking and acting. It's very ingrained behavior and
takes more effort for me to overcome since it springs from strong
childhood influences. I'm thinking a lot more about that these days.

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

-=-Unschooling is disapproved of and I find myself doubling my efforts
when it's brought up to show how things are well. Like Scribblenauts
being what my dad thinks of as educational. His comment was that I
should narrow things down so that I'm doing only that sort of thing
for the sake of speeding up the education. I hope he understood when I
said that Karl learns so much more when he is unaware of the fact that
he's learning from fun things, and if I took away or limited
"non-educational" materials (things that don't have much schooling
emphasis) then Karl would start to desire only those things and feel
guilty for playing anything fun that might be educational unbeknown to
him.-=-

He probably didn't understand it at all. :-)
Even people who really want to know how to unschool can takes months or a year to get it.

But I bet after a few years when Karl's older things will be different with the relatives. As our kids got older, the doofy questions and comments ceased altogether.



-=-I don't love going to visit Brian's
side of the family because really they do the same business with
manipulating through approval (comments, smiles, hugs, nods) and
disapproval (silence, stillness, distance, disagreement).

-=-I realize now that most of it is unconsciously done, not meaning to
manipulate but that it has a manipulative effect nonetheless.-=-

The "manipulative effect," though is in the eye of the beholder.
If someone refrains from being critical, and chooses instead to say nothing or keep quiet, or go in the other room to do something rather than stay there and risk saying something, what was the option? To pretend to smile, hug and nod? That would be dishonest. If someone is just pretending to be positive, then the times they actually WOULD have shown approvement would be worthless Or more likely, there would be honest smiles and pained smiles, and people would know the difference.

When I visit friends whose kids are in school, I'm sure I comment, smile and nod when they're talking about times the kids were happy and the family did cool things together. When They start talking about their kids' homework, and grades, and frustrations, I try very hard not to do anything more than to be silent, still and distant.

Sandra




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k

>>>The "manipulative effect," though is in the eye of the beholder.<<<

You're right. I see what you mean about dishonesty.

>>>> But I bet after a few years when Karl's older things will be different with the relatives. As our kids got older, the doofy questions and comments ceased altogether.<<<

Good to know.

~Katherine

Pam Sorooshian

On 1/26/2011 10:12 AM, k wrote:
> So many people don't know the difference between conditioning others
> through
> praise and not seeking to control but simply expressing gratitude and
> having
> a celebration.

I think it is an example of how parents reject one set of rules, but
replace it with another set of rules. They reject behaviorism
(conditioning even through positive reinforcement), but replace it with
the rule that says "Don't praise." I support replacing a set of
parenting rules with logical thinking and kindness.

Instead of turning to yet another "parenting method," better to reject
"methods" in general, and, instead, learn to think for yourself,
logically and kindly.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 1/26/2011 7:27 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> When you praise another person or your own child, it's usually to them
> directly, I think.

There was a parenting idea going around when my kids were young that
involved letting kids overhear a parent praising them to someone else.
It wasn't supposed to be good for them if a parent told them directly
how wonderful they were, but it was good for them to know the parent
thought they were wonderful. So, in the hearing of the kids, mom would
say nice things about the kids to dad.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 1/27/2011 8:44 AM, Karen James wrote:
> In my husband and my families (Canadian), praise and criticism are used to
> control children, and this behaviour is practiced with young and grown
> children.

Some parents use this so much and so obviously that I start hearing it
as the game where you direct someone to find a hidden object by saying,
"Warmer/Colder."

On the other hand, some parents withhold the information their kids need
to know if they ARE getting warmer or colder in their behavior - as if
there is no such thing as better or worse behavior.

-pam


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Sandra Dodd

-=-There was a parenting idea going around when my kids were young that
involved letting kids overhear a parent praising them to someone else.
It wasn't supposed to be good for them if a parent told them directly
how wonderful they were, but it was good for them to know the parent
thought they were wonderful. So, in the hearing of the kids, mom would
say nice things about the kids to dad.-=-

I do that ALL THE TIME, not so much about my kids as I do about other people, their friends, their kids, their squires or students (in the SCA), their roommates I know they might be frustrated with, so I'll tell them a cool story about what the roommate did.

Today I got to do a really cool one. A friend of mine (longtime friend, 15 years) is up for a metro court judge position, and I wrote a letter to the governor. The decision is made next week. He's young to be a judge. If he doesn't get this one (there are six people being considered), he'll get another one someday. He was my protege in the SCA, a formal relationship. Last month Holly and I went to see him installed as the Grand Master of his Masonic lodge. He and his wife lost one of twins in utero a couple of years ago, and had another baby three weeks ago. I really, really like him. I brag him up a lot. His name in the SCA is Balthazar. In real life he's Jonathan Ibarra, assistant district attorney.

I brag my friend Jeff up.

I brag up Pam, Joyce, Deb Lewis, Jenny C, Schuyler...

I don't wait until they're listening to do that. I do it flat out behind their backs. And sometimes on this list.

I tell people that Lori Odhner is great and I share her writing.

Maybe more people should brag up other people more often so their kids are just some of a larger group of positively-spoken-of people in their lives.

I don't do that to manipulate anyone or to gain anything for myself, but I DO gain something, because I'm accustomed to looking for what's cool and interesting and beneficial to others.

Here's the letter I wrote today:

2905 Tahiti Ct. NE

Albuquerque NM 87112

January 26, 2011



To the Honorable Susana Martinez, Governor of New Mexico,

Regarding the consideration of Jonathan Ibarra for Metro Court Judge



Dear Governor Martinez:

I wish to share some of what I have learned about Jonathan Ibarra. I have known Jon Ibarra for fifteen years, since he was an undergraduate and working at a grocery store to put himself through school.

Several times over the years, I have organized sessions of philosophy discussions, at which participants would discuss virtues and ethics, both in their historical settings and in ways we could apply to our own lives. Jon never missed those. Even when he got to the point that he knew all of what would be discussed, he still came to help out younger, newer members of the discussions. He could be relied on to explain things clearly and calmly if I became flustered or frustrated with someone else's arguments or confusion.

Jon's clarity and integrity have continued to impress me, in all aspects of his life.

Another personal trait worth noting is that Jon maintains his friendships over the years. When he was installed in a high position recently in a service organization to which he belongs, the building overflowed with friends and relatives who had come to the ceremony. The caterer was a former girlfriend. Not only do his friends find no fault in him, others who were hesitant to know or like him have eventually became admirers as well.

When Jon graduated from law school and friends asked me what I thought, I said "He'll be a judge someday." He is the calmest and most fair-minded person I know.



Thank you for your time and consideration.



Sincerely,



Sandra Dodd





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