d.lewis

***Stealing from within the house he's a guest in (he also steals at home,
however, taking things that aren't his or that he's been expressly told not
to take).***

Six it too young to classify that behavior as stealing. Considering all
the child has been through the grabbing and holding on to something that's
real and seems potentially comforting seems a coping tool. Sometimes
people eat when they need to feel emotionally filled up. Sometimes people
take things. Think of it as him trying to get something that will help him
feel better in some way. What he needs might be more time with his mom.
Less time away from home. Some adult who cares about him needs to be with
him more to figure it out.

***Breaking toys on purpose or out of utter carelessness (not simple things
like accidents. He can be very destructive.)***

Seems like he's trying to communicate something. Maybe playing for a long
time at your house is too much for him. You wrote that he's been moved
around a lot and just got settled into a new home. Maybe he's not as
settled as the adults think. Staying home more for awhile might be better
for him.

***Regressing to chewing on things (including some of said toys) which he
stopped doing 3 years ago.***

Why is that a regression? Lot's of people chew. Get him something to
chew.

***Refusing to listen when told that things are dangerous,***

If he's heard something is dangerous and he's done it and didn't get hurt
then he might not trust that any of you are telling the truth. So, first,
be honest. If it is potentially dangerous then help him do it in a safe
way. If it's not dangerous, only inconvenient for adults, don't tell him
it's dangerous.

My brother has a daughter who would probably be diagnosed as autistic. She
does not hear her parents. It's not that she's "refusing to listen." She
just has so many other things going on in her head that she doesn't hear
them. It would be kinder of you and the other adults in his life to not
assume he's deliberately refusing to listen or cooperate. Assume he can't
hear what you're saying for whatever reason. If you can't reach him it's
not his fault. You are the adults. You are the people who need to figure
out how best to communicate with him.

***being inconsiderate of others' needs (and we're pretty lenient on noise
levels etc in the house
but yelling endlessly when someone is napping is not nice)***

Six is so little. He's really not able to consistently consider the
feelings and needs of others. Look! You are having a hard time
understanding the needs of six year old child! How can he possibly be
expected to understand yours?

***and hitting 3 year old R some times.***

Maybe they're together too much. Maybe they need adults around them when
they play so that someone can be watching for problems. Maybe they're too
long without food, without physical contact with their moms.

***We have tried everything from talking to him and just listening and
trying
to hear his reasons and his feelings and thoughts, addressing his concerns,
explaining things to him better, spanking and time-outs (we all believe in
SOME spanking and responsive punishments.***

Try having a more realistic expectation of a six year old who's life has
been unstable and troubled. Try fewer, shorter play dates, or even stop
them for awhile. Try being with the children all the time when they play
so that you can see the very beginnings of trouble before it escalates to
hitting or crankiness. Try feeding the children often while they play.
Stay close enough to touch them sometimes, to smile at them and be a
comfort.

***I don't want a lecture on spanking. ***

I'm sure you don't. But if a man wrote to the list that he sometimes hit his
wife and didn't want to discuss it, would you think it responsible of the
listmembers to say, yeah, ok, sure?

If you don't want him to hit R, or anyone else, you'll have to demonstrate a
better example of problem solving. And like any other kind of learning,
you'll have to allow him all the time he needs to learn new skills. That
doesn't mean you should let him hit. It means you shouldn't jump to the
conclusion that peaceful parenting doesn't work if after several months, or
years, he's still sometimes hits.

Please stop spanking. If I saw someone hit you I'd try like everything to
stop him. I think you'd be glad if someone stepped in to help you if you
were being hit. You want to help R when K hits her. You want to stop him
from hitting because you know hitting isn't right. So please, please don't
hit anyone. Especially not a child who has no defense against you, no
recourse.

***We have tried complete non-spanking and it does not work for us.
Both families have tried it, I mean. ***

What does "not work for us" mean?

***I rarely ever have to spank my R.***

You never, ever *have to* spank her. You're making a choice to hit a child.

*** She has been unschooled since birth, however, remember. She requires
mostly only
conversation. She has some days when she gets into a really bad streak of
behavior and at that point a spank and then a nap will almost always
completely correct the bad behaviors.)***

And more attention before the "bad" behavior starts, food before she's so
hungry that she's irritated, the comfort of a parent who can be kind even
when R's being cranky has the potential to change behavior too. Do those
things instead.

***I just want advice. Thus, I empty my cup.***

You're expecting too much from K. Probably, he needs more time at home,
more time to find peace in his own space, more time in close attachment with
his parents. Not every child is ready for long play dates at age six. A
child who's had two dads and many moves in six years probably needs calm,
peaceful stability more than he needs social outings.

I think the adults have a vision of social time and behavior that is
unrealistic for this child. K himself is telling you so. Stop and listen
to him.

Deb Lewis

Mog D

I came to this thread late - I initially replied before reading all the answers and I still haven't read all the answers so someone else has possibly already said what I feel I need to say but I'm going to say it anyway.

My middle son breaks things that's because I haven't been with him enough - all my children are loud I put ear plugs in or join them - my youngest son and daughter take things that don't belong to them because they have no concept of ownership do I spank them? No. Never. I learned my lesson and I will NEVER do that again to any child! I get frustrated sure but that in in itself is as big a signal as any other that I need to take a step back and assess what the problem is so that I can act rather than react. We need to be strong for them because they learn from us. If we model violence that is what they will learn and it is all the more worrying if it is cold and calculating than borne of frustration and overwhelming emotion.

Morag

--- In [email protected], "d.lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
>
> ***Stealing from within the house he's a guest in (he also steals at home,
> however, taking things that aren't his or that he's been expressly told not
> to take).***
>
> Six it too young to classify that behavior as stealing. Considering all
> the child has been through the grabbing and holding on to something that's
> real and seems potentially comforting seems a coping tool. Sometimes
> people eat when they need to feel emotionally filled up. Sometimes people
> take things. Think of it as him trying to get something that will help him
> feel better in some way. What he needs might be more time with his mom.
> Less time away from home. Some adult who cares about him needs to be with
> him more to figure it out.
>
> ***Breaking toys on purpose or out of utter carelessness (not simple things
> like accidents. He can be very destructive.)***
>
> Seems like he's trying to communicate something. Maybe playing for a long
> time at your house is too much for him. You wrote that he's been moved
> around a lot and just got settled into a new home. Maybe he's not as
> settled as the adults think. Staying home more for awhile might be better
> for him.
>
> ***Regressing to chewing on things (including some of said toys) which he
> stopped doing 3 years ago.***
>
> Why is that a regression? Lot's of people chew. Get him something to
> chew.
>
> ***Refusing to listen when told that things are dangerous,***
>
> If he's heard something is dangerous and he's done it and didn't get hurt
> then he might not trust that any of you are telling the truth. So, first,
> be honest. If it is potentially dangerous then help him do it in a safe
> way. If it's not dangerous, only inconvenient for adults, don't tell him
> it's dangerous.
>
> My brother has a daughter who would probably be diagnosed as autistic. She
> does not hear her parents. It's not that she's "refusing to listen." She
> just has so many other things going on in her head that she doesn't hear
> them. It would be kinder of you and the other adults in his life to not
> assume he's deliberately refusing to listen or cooperate. Assume he can't
> hear what you're saying for whatever reason. If you can't reach him it's
> not his fault. You are the adults. You are the people who need to figure
> out how best to communicate with him.
>
> ***being inconsiderate of others' needs (and we're pretty lenient on noise
> levels etc in the house
> but yelling endlessly when someone is napping is not nice)***
>
> Six is so little. He's really not able to consistently consider the
> feelings and needs of others. Look! You are having a hard time
> understanding the needs of six year old child! How can he possibly be
> expected to understand yours?
>
> ***and hitting 3 year old R some times.***
>
> Maybe they're together too much. Maybe they need adults around them when
> they play so that someone can be watching for problems. Maybe they're too
> long without food, without physical contact with their moms.
>
> ***We have tried everything from talking to him and just listening and
> trying
> to hear his reasons and his feelings and thoughts, addressing his concerns,
> explaining things to him better, spanking and time-outs (we all believe in
> SOME spanking and responsive punishments.***
>
> Try having a more realistic expectation of a six year old who's life has
> been unstable and troubled. Try fewer, shorter play dates, or even stop
> them for awhile. Try being with the children all the time when they play
> so that you can see the very beginnings of trouble before it escalates to
> hitting or crankiness. Try feeding the children often while they play.
> Stay close enough to touch them sometimes, to smile at them and be a
> comfort.
>
> ***I don't want a lecture on spanking. ***
>
> I'm sure you don't. But if a man wrote to the list that he sometimes hit his
> wife and didn't want to discuss it, would you think it responsible of the
> listmembers to say, yeah, ok, sure?
>
> If you don't want him to hit R, or anyone else, you'll have to demonstrate a
> better example of problem solving. And like any other kind of learning,
> you'll have to allow him all the time he needs to learn new skills. That
> doesn't mean you should let him hit. It means you shouldn't jump to the
> conclusion that peaceful parenting doesn't work if after several months, or
> years, he's still sometimes hits.
>
> Please stop spanking. If I saw someone hit you I'd try like everything to
> stop him. I think you'd be glad if someone stepped in to help you if you
> were being hit. You want to help R when K hits her. You want to stop him
> from hitting because you know hitting isn't right. So please, please don't
> hit anyone. Especially not a child who has no defense against you, no
> recourse.
>
> ***We have tried complete non-spanking and it does not work for us.
> Both families have tried it, I mean. ***
>
> What does "not work for us" mean?
>
> ***I rarely ever have to spank my R.***
>
> You never, ever *have to* spank her. You're making a choice to hit a child.
>
> *** She has been unschooled since birth, however, remember. She requires
> mostly only
> conversation. She has some days when she gets into a really bad streak of
> behavior and at that point a spank and then a nap will almost always
> completely correct the bad behaviors.)***
>
> And more attention before the "bad" behavior starts, food before she's so
> hungry that she's irritated, the comfort of a parent who can be kind even
> when R's being cranky has the potential to change behavior too. Do those
> things instead.
>
> ***I just want advice. Thus, I empty my cup.***
>
> You're expecting too much from K. Probably, he needs more time at home,
> more time to find peace in his own space, more time in close attachment with
> his parents. Not every child is ready for long play dates at age six. A
> child who's had two dads and many moves in six years probably needs calm,
> peaceful stability more than he needs social outings.
>
> I think the adults have a vision of social time and behavior that is
> unrealistic for this child. K himself is telling you so. Stop and listen
> to him.
>
> Deb Lewis
>