"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
Molly
This has probably been the best advice as a new unschooling family. That, and to go BE with your children, without expectations. We are very new to unschooling. We looked into it for a long time, trying to learn the "rules" of being an unschooler. I wanted to BE that person. We started deschooling, and made a beginners mistake of taking most of the rules and throwing them out. That's what unschoolers do, right? I probably should have read into that part a little further!
It took time, and is still a work in progress, but we have figured out what works for OUR family, for OUR kids, to make all of us as happy and content as possible. We have spent more time just being with our kids (and enjoying it immensely) than we ever have.
Our 8 year old son has immersed himself in several video games as well as internet games. He has been making his own food choices, which for the most part are very healthy. He does like to sit and eat an entire box of cookies from time to time, but so does his dad!
I haven't sat down and practiced handwriting with him, but I am sitting here looking at his notebook that he writes his passwords and notes for his computer games in. I know what each one is for, and when it was that he wrote them. Without any coercion, his handwriting has changed and improved so much in the last six months. He has been writing when it's necessary to him, to what he is doing. He hasn't had to worry about whether he starts his "e" at the top of the line or the middle. I showed him his dad's handwriting the other day, and we both giggled about it. I think his is already more legible!
He doesn't type yet with all his fingers on the keys like I do, but he tells me he wants to learn how. We got a program for that, but he isn't interested in it at the time. I have noticed, though, that the past few weeks when he is typing, his eyes don't search for the letter location as much. He is starting to know where they are located on the keyboard! Faster finger pecking!
We haven't had spelling tests, or required reading, but he is reading! Big words that have never been taught to him, as well as small everyday words. He isn't so much into sitting down and reading a book, but those games sure do have a lot of words! Knowing what they say makes game playing much easier.
I was one of those that was convinced that he may actually play the video and computer games non stop until he is 18. I made sure to be okay with that, to look at what he WAS learning from these, and to make him happy and comfortable while he was doing it. Eight years of mainstream parenting as well as his years in preschool and school, I knew it was going to take some time to rebuild that relationship to what I wanted it to be. I decided I was going to focus on that and not worry about what he was or wasn't doing right now.
The reason that I feel inclined to post today, is that this has been such an amazing last couple of weeks for us. Jayden has spent time doing his usual video games, but has also suddenly started showing interest in other things as well. I think he finally got all filled up on the games! He has built a robot with just a helping extra set of hands from me. He has been working on a electro gadget kit that he got, building all sorts of different circuits that do different cool things. He has been thinking up plans for a video game he wants to create. Yesterday, he got a play tent out, packed bags for both him and his two year old brother, got flashlights for both of them, and set out on a camping trip in their bedroom. Today, he offered to vacuum up a big pile of stickers that Jaxon had one-by-one poked out of their holder. He asked if I would pay him, and I gladly got a dollar out and offered it up. He negotiated at two, but I stayed firm at one. He then told me that he would vacuum even if I wasn't paying him. He just wanted to do it for me!
Awhile back, I posted about his 'sudden outbursts of hyper activity'. I could see asking the same thing in regards to 'oppositional defiant disorder'. When in school, he could have been regarded as ADHD or ODD, but we never looked for a diagnosis. Though through our thoughts, and our words towards him, we WERE labeling him. Thank goodness we found unschooling instead. In the past year, he has done a complete 180 just with lots of love from us, freedom to make his own choices, and trusting that we are here for him whatever he needs. He has become the sweetest most protective big brother, and sometimes has to remind me when I am not being very kind.
I am still deschooling, as so is my husband, so I am heading back to "Read a little, try a little, wait a little, watch" but I feel like we are getting it. Not only do I feel that, but the results speak for themselves. Reading other people's accounts of what unschooling has done for them is not nearly as powerful as seeing it for yourself, firsthand, with your own family. Happy kids, excited to learn new things, makes for happy adults, excited to learn new things. This has been one of the best decisions we have made for our children, and our family as a whole. Thanks to all of you who put so much time and effort in to ensure that those of us who are new can learn to do the best for our children just as you have.
One last note: Someone gave some advice recently regarding children throwing tantrums. I don't know who it was, but they basically said that when their child acts in that way they try to love them up as much as possible. My two year old was very upset today about laying down for a nap. My instinct was to be angry with him because I was frustrated, but my inner voice heard that advice. I held him really snug and kissed and hugged him and told him I loved him. He instantly calmed down, laid his head on my shoulder, and snuggled up to me. So whoever shared that, thank you. It made a really frustrating moment for both of us turn quickly into a happy peaceful moment. That is what loving your kids "too much" does!
Molly Phipps in Iowa
mama to Jayden (8)
Jaxon (2)
and wife to Keith for nine years and counting!
It took time, and is still a work in progress, but we have figured out what works for OUR family, for OUR kids, to make all of us as happy and content as possible. We have spent more time just being with our kids (and enjoying it immensely) than we ever have.
Our 8 year old son has immersed himself in several video games as well as internet games. He has been making his own food choices, which for the most part are very healthy. He does like to sit and eat an entire box of cookies from time to time, but so does his dad!
I haven't sat down and practiced handwriting with him, but I am sitting here looking at his notebook that he writes his passwords and notes for his computer games in. I know what each one is for, and when it was that he wrote them. Without any coercion, his handwriting has changed and improved so much in the last six months. He has been writing when it's necessary to him, to what he is doing. He hasn't had to worry about whether he starts his "e" at the top of the line or the middle. I showed him his dad's handwriting the other day, and we both giggled about it. I think his is already more legible!
He doesn't type yet with all his fingers on the keys like I do, but he tells me he wants to learn how. We got a program for that, but he isn't interested in it at the time. I have noticed, though, that the past few weeks when he is typing, his eyes don't search for the letter location as much. He is starting to know where they are located on the keyboard! Faster finger pecking!
We haven't had spelling tests, or required reading, but he is reading! Big words that have never been taught to him, as well as small everyday words. He isn't so much into sitting down and reading a book, but those games sure do have a lot of words! Knowing what they say makes game playing much easier.
I was one of those that was convinced that he may actually play the video and computer games non stop until he is 18. I made sure to be okay with that, to look at what he WAS learning from these, and to make him happy and comfortable while he was doing it. Eight years of mainstream parenting as well as his years in preschool and school, I knew it was going to take some time to rebuild that relationship to what I wanted it to be. I decided I was going to focus on that and not worry about what he was or wasn't doing right now.
The reason that I feel inclined to post today, is that this has been such an amazing last couple of weeks for us. Jayden has spent time doing his usual video games, but has also suddenly started showing interest in other things as well. I think he finally got all filled up on the games! He has built a robot with just a helping extra set of hands from me. He has been working on a electro gadget kit that he got, building all sorts of different circuits that do different cool things. He has been thinking up plans for a video game he wants to create. Yesterday, he got a play tent out, packed bags for both him and his two year old brother, got flashlights for both of them, and set out on a camping trip in their bedroom. Today, he offered to vacuum up a big pile of stickers that Jaxon had one-by-one poked out of their holder. He asked if I would pay him, and I gladly got a dollar out and offered it up. He negotiated at two, but I stayed firm at one. He then told me that he would vacuum even if I wasn't paying him. He just wanted to do it for me!
Awhile back, I posted about his 'sudden outbursts of hyper activity'. I could see asking the same thing in regards to 'oppositional defiant disorder'. When in school, he could have been regarded as ADHD or ODD, but we never looked for a diagnosis. Though through our thoughts, and our words towards him, we WERE labeling him. Thank goodness we found unschooling instead. In the past year, he has done a complete 180 just with lots of love from us, freedom to make his own choices, and trusting that we are here for him whatever he needs. He has become the sweetest most protective big brother, and sometimes has to remind me when I am not being very kind.
I am still deschooling, as so is my husband, so I am heading back to "Read a little, try a little, wait a little, watch" but I feel like we are getting it. Not only do I feel that, but the results speak for themselves. Reading other people's accounts of what unschooling has done for them is not nearly as powerful as seeing it for yourself, firsthand, with your own family. Happy kids, excited to learn new things, makes for happy adults, excited to learn new things. This has been one of the best decisions we have made for our children, and our family as a whole. Thanks to all of you who put so much time and effort in to ensure that those of us who are new can learn to do the best for our children just as you have.
One last note: Someone gave some advice recently regarding children throwing tantrums. I don't know who it was, but they basically said that when their child acts in that way they try to love them up as much as possible. My two year old was very upset today about laying down for a nap. My instinct was to be angry with him because I was frustrated, but my inner voice heard that advice. I held him really snug and kissed and hugged him and told him I loved him. He instantly calmed down, laid his head on my shoulder, and snuggled up to me. So whoever shared that, thank you. It made a really frustrating moment for both of us turn quickly into a happy peaceful moment. That is what loving your kids "too much" does!
Molly Phipps in Iowa
mama to Jayden (8)
Jaxon (2)
and wife to Keith for nine years and counting!
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 8, 2011, at 5:17 AM, Molly wrote:
He's writing a whole book for the statistics class he teaches just
with two fingers.
And with the iPad two fingers are a better way to type. With phones,
thumbs are better!
glasses helps too :-) It sounds like you're doing well at seeing
unschooling :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He doesn't type yet with all his fingers on the keys like I do, butMy husband has always just used two fingers. He's fast and accurate.
> he tells me he wants to learn how.
He's writing a whole book for the statistics class he teaches just
with two fingers.
And with the iPad two fingers are a better way to type. With phones,
thumbs are better!
> That, and to go BE with your children, without expectations.And apparently seeing your kids without school and fear colored
glasses helps too :-) It sounds like you're doing well at seeing
unschooling :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
This is beautiful. Thanks for that whole post, Molly.
-=-Reading other people's accounts of what unschooling has done for them is not nearly as powerful as seeing it for yourself, firsthand, with your own family. Happy kids, excited to learn new things, makes for happy adults, excited to learn new things.-=-
----------------------
Oh, "18..." the ominous "18"...
-=-I was one of those that was convinced that he may actually play the video and computer games non stop until he is 18. -=-
One thing I mentioned in a discussion last night is that we used to think "when she's 18," or "until he's 18" about things, and now that all three of mine are past 18, that seems an odd thing to have thought. It turns out that a person is just about the very same the day of his 18th birthday as he was the day before. Unschoolers can live toward helping a child stay whole so that 18 is no particular landmark in his life, nor something to be feared or dreaded.
When finances (government benefits or child support) are an issue, that's separate from a parentally-imposed or culturally-assumed "just until you're 18 and then no more) stance.
My eighteen year olds (the three I've had in my house) were more mature than many others their age, and at the same time they were more childlike. I could say that of their whole lives, though, before and after "eighteen."
-=- Jayden has spent time doing his usual video games, but has also suddenly started showing interest in other things as well. I think he finally got all filled up on the games! -=-
After a big meal, a child hasn't "finally gotten all filled up on food," though. A new game might come out and he'll go into immersion mode again. :-) Or he might be a little fluish, or stressed about something, and want to escape into patterns and sounds rather than words and people's faces for a day or three.
What I would guess might have happened, though, is that he finally believed that you really wouldn't remove the game from him, or him from the game, just because he stopped for a moment. You gave him choices and now you're seeing him make choices in a thoughtful or joyful way, rather than in a reactionary or desperate way, maybe.
-=-Yesterday, he got a play tent out, packed bags for both him and his two year old brother, got flashlights for both of them, and set out on a camping trip in their bedroom. -=-
That kind of play can be the best. A sheet over a table, some pillows and a flashlight can go a long way. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Reading other people's accounts of what unschooling has done for them is not nearly as powerful as seeing it for yourself, firsthand, with your own family. Happy kids, excited to learn new things, makes for happy adults, excited to learn new things.-=-
----------------------
Oh, "18..." the ominous "18"...
-=-I was one of those that was convinced that he may actually play the video and computer games non stop until he is 18. -=-
One thing I mentioned in a discussion last night is that we used to think "when she's 18," or "until he's 18" about things, and now that all three of mine are past 18, that seems an odd thing to have thought. It turns out that a person is just about the very same the day of his 18th birthday as he was the day before. Unschoolers can live toward helping a child stay whole so that 18 is no particular landmark in his life, nor something to be feared or dreaded.
When finances (government benefits or child support) are an issue, that's separate from a parentally-imposed or culturally-assumed "just until you're 18 and then no more) stance.
My eighteen year olds (the three I've had in my house) were more mature than many others their age, and at the same time they were more childlike. I could say that of their whole lives, though, before and after "eighteen."
-=- Jayden has spent time doing his usual video games, but has also suddenly started showing interest in other things as well. I think he finally got all filled up on the games! -=-
After a big meal, a child hasn't "finally gotten all filled up on food," though. A new game might come out and he'll go into immersion mode again. :-) Or he might be a little fluish, or stressed about something, and want to escape into patterns and sounds rather than words and people's faces for a day or three.
What I would guess might have happened, though, is that he finally believed that you really wouldn't remove the game from him, or him from the game, just because he stopped for a moment. You gave him choices and now you're seeing him make choices in a thoughtful or joyful way, rather than in a reactionary or desperate way, maybe.
-=-Yesterday, he got a play tent out, packed bags for both him and his two year old brother, got flashlights for both of them, and set out on a camping trip in their bedroom. -=-
That kind of play can be the best. A sheet over a table, some pillows and a flashlight can go a long way. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Molly
-----It turns out that a person is just about the very same the day of his 18th birthday as he was the day before. Unschoolers can live toward helping a child stay whole so that 18 is no particular landmark in his life, nor something to be feared or dreaded.-----
This actually made me think of my 18 year old self. The very day I turned 18, I went and got a very large tattoo on my back. I also went and bought a shirt with an open back to show it off. I came home, and when my mom saw it she pointed and yelled "That better not be real". It was, of course. My reasoning? Well, I am 18 now, Mom. I can finally make my own decisions! I had been working since I was 16, paid my own bills, completed my high school courses early and went on to the community college all before the age of 18. Despite all that, in my life that "ominous 18" was the point in which my parents would *finally* release me. I moved out a few weeks later to make the full escape.
There is a certain level of healing knowing that a lot of my childhood won't be repeated in my children's lives.
This actually made me think of my 18 year old self. The very day I turned 18, I went and got a very large tattoo on my back. I also went and bought a shirt with an open back to show it off. I came home, and when my mom saw it she pointed and yelled "That better not be real". It was, of course. My reasoning? Well, I am 18 now, Mom. I can finally make my own decisions! I had been working since I was 16, paid my own bills, completed my high school courses early and went on to the community college all before the age of 18. Despite all that, in my life that "ominous 18" was the point in which my parents would *finally* release me. I moved out a few weeks later to make the full escape.
There is a certain level of healing knowing that a lot of my childhood won't be repeated in my children's lives.
Sandra Dodd
-=- The very day I turned 18, I went and got a very large tattoo on my back. I also went and bought a shirt with an open back to show it off. I came home, and when my mom saw it she pointed and yelled "That better not be real". It was, of course. My reasoning? Well, I am 18 now, Mom. I can finally make my own decisions!-=-
Holly got a tattoo when she turned 18. She had asked if we would sign off on one earlier, but her dad wasn't comfortable with that. I could have, legally, signed on my own, but that's not a way to keep a marriage happy. And Holly understood and didn't press that. When she was 18 and didn't need a signature, she got a tattoo of her own design. She didn't do it the same day, and as she ended up having a friend do it, there was no paperwork. Her dad didn't object or insult or anything. He accepted that it was something she wanted to do that he had stalled off.
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2010/01/hollys-tattoo.html
It guess she got it in January last year. Her birthday is in early November. She's 19 now, and living at home. So is Marty, who is 22. They tell us where they're going, not because we "make them," but because it's a good idea, and they've seen me and Keith tell them where we will be for 19 and 22 years. It's part of love and partnership to be open and to share those things.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Holly got a tattoo when she turned 18. She had asked if we would sign off on one earlier, but her dad wasn't comfortable with that. I could have, legally, signed on my own, but that's not a way to keep a marriage happy. And Holly understood and didn't press that. When she was 18 and didn't need a signature, she got a tattoo of her own design. She didn't do it the same day, and as she ended up having a friend do it, there was no paperwork. Her dad didn't object or insult or anything. He accepted that it was something she wanted to do that he had stalled off.
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2010/01/hollys-tattoo.html
It guess she got it in January last year. Her birthday is in early November. She's 19 now, and living at home. So is Marty, who is 22. They tell us where they're going, not because we "make them," but because it's a good idea, and they've seen me and Keith tell them where we will be for 19 and 22 years. It's part of love and partnership to be open and to share those things.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa E Biesemeyer
"There is a certain level of healing knowing that a lot of my childhood won't be
repeated in my children's lives. "
And yet, an unschooled person may decide at 18 years old (or 17 or 19 or
20...)that they, too, feel "finally free" or "finally an adult".
I was watching (I haven't finished it yet) a video of a talk given by a grown
unschooler, Astra Taylor. While I feel that she is generally promoting
unschooling and her upbringing, she also seems to have "rebelled" against it as
a teen and young adult.
She says, "we liked unschooling. It freed us to be ourselves. But as the oldest
kid in my small community, I was concerned about my future. I didn't have any
role models, and we were isolated in a pre-Internet bubble. What became of
grown-up unschoolers? I had no idea... at 13 I enrolled in the 9th grade..." (26
minutes or so in to a bit over 27 minutes).
She goes on to discuss how this (school) was a shocking experience, and how she
literally became motivated by grades, stopped reading other than what was
assigned, etc. Still, she continued to go to school. She went on to college by
16 (I think) and Brown graduate school by 19yo, but ended up dropping out,
realizing that it didn't fit her. When she stopped pursuing ivy league
education, she claims her parents were happy that she got over her silly
obsession with the ivy league (paraphrasing). This seemed really judgmental to
me, which I could see being a reason for her to reach out to "the mainstream".
If she had felt that she was "weird", which she says that she did, and her
parents were supportive of "weird" but not of "mainstream", then her need to
rebel against that to feel "normal" was probably pretty strong
So, even if a parent is supportive, embracing of a child's interests, trusts the
child's ability to learn, etc. etc., it may be that *that* child still will feel
the need to escape from or be free of parents and family once they hit their
teens and twenties. And, I believe, that this, the desire to be on one's own,
is actually very naturally a part of growing up. It isn't something to prevent,
but rather embrace.
the video:
http://www.filmmakermagazine.com/blog/2009/11/schools-out-astra-taylor-on-unschooled.php
an interview:
http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
repeated in my children's lives. "
And yet, an unschooled person may decide at 18 years old (or 17 or 19 or
20...)that they, too, feel "finally free" or "finally an adult".
I was watching (I haven't finished it yet) a video of a talk given by a grown
unschooler, Astra Taylor. While I feel that she is generally promoting
unschooling and her upbringing, she also seems to have "rebelled" against it as
a teen and young adult.
She says, "we liked unschooling. It freed us to be ourselves. But as the oldest
kid in my small community, I was concerned about my future. I didn't have any
role models, and we were isolated in a pre-Internet bubble. What became of
grown-up unschoolers? I had no idea... at 13 I enrolled in the 9th grade..." (26
minutes or so in to a bit over 27 minutes).
She goes on to discuss how this (school) was a shocking experience, and how she
literally became motivated by grades, stopped reading other than what was
assigned, etc. Still, she continued to go to school. She went on to college by
16 (I think) and Brown graduate school by 19yo, but ended up dropping out,
realizing that it didn't fit her. When she stopped pursuing ivy league
education, she claims her parents were happy that she got over her silly
obsession with the ivy league (paraphrasing). This seemed really judgmental to
me, which I could see being a reason for her to reach out to "the mainstream".
If she had felt that she was "weird", which she says that she did, and her
parents were supportive of "weird" but not of "mainstream", then her need to
rebel against that to feel "normal" was probably pretty strong
So, even if a parent is supportive, embracing of a child's interests, trusts the
child's ability to learn, etc. etc., it may be that *that* child still will feel
the need to escape from or be free of parents and family once they hit their
teens and twenties. And, I believe, that this, the desire to be on one's own,
is actually very naturally a part of growing up. It isn't something to prevent,
but rather embrace.
the video:
http://www.filmmakermagazine.com/blog/2009/11/schools-out-astra-taylor-on-unschooled.php
an interview:
http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>When she stopped pursuing ivy league education, she claims her parents were happy that she got over her silly obsession with the ivy league (paraphrasing).<<<Looks pretty hard to tell what happened. She claims or it happened. If
it is so that her parents thought of her school as a silly obsession,
that's hardly supportive.
~Katherine
On 1/10/11, Lisa E Biesemeyer <l.biesemeyer@...> wrote:
> "There is a certain level of healing knowing that a lot of my childhood
> won't be
> repeated in my children's lives. "
>
> And yet, an unschooled person may decide at 18 years old (or 17 or 19 or
> 20...)that they, too, feel "finally free" or "finally an adult".
>
>
> I was watching (I haven't finished it yet) a video of a talk given by a
> grown
> unschooler, Astra Taylor. While I feel that she is generally promoting
> unschooling and her upbringing, she also seems to have "rebelled" against it
> as
> a teen and young adult.
>
>
> She says, "we liked unschooling. It freed us to be ourselves. But as the
> oldest
> kid in my small community, I was concerned about my future. I didn't have
> any
> role models, and we were isolated in a pre-Internet bubble. What became of
> grown-up unschoolers? I had no idea... at 13 I enrolled in the 9th grade..."
> (26
> minutes or so in to a bit over 27 minutes).
>
> She goes on to discuss how this (school) was a shocking experience, and how
> she
> literally became motivated by grades, stopped reading other than what was
> assigned, etc. Still, she continued to go to school. She went on to college
> by
> 16 (I think) and Brown graduate school by 19yo, but ended up dropping out,
> realizing that it didn't fit her. When she stopped pursuing ivy league
> education, she claims her parents were happy that she got over her silly
> obsession with the ivy league (paraphrasing). This seemed really judgmental
> to
> me, which I could see being a reason for her to reach out to "the
> mainstream".
> If she had felt that she was "weird", which she says that she did, and her
> parents were supportive of "weird" but not of "mainstream", then her need to
> rebel against that to feel "normal" was probably pretty strong
>
> So, even if a parent is supportive, embracing of a child's interests, trusts
> the
> child's ability to learn, etc. etc., it may be that *that* child still will
> feel
> the need to escape from or be free of parents and family once they hit their
> teens and twenties. And, I believe, that this, the desire to be on one's
> own,
> is actually very naturally a part of growing up. It isn't something to
> prevent,
> but rather embrace.
>
> the video:
> http://www.filmmakermagazine.com/blog/2009/11/schools-out-astra-taylor-on-unschooled.php
>
>
> an interview:
> http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054
>
> Lisa B
>
> Lisa Biesemeyer
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Robin Bentley
> She says, "we liked unschooling. It freed us to be ourselves. But asI don't see much from her interview that looks anything like our
> the oldest
> kid in my small community, I was concerned about my future. I didn't
> have any
> role models, and we were isolated in a pre-Internet bubble. What
> became of
> grown-up unschoolers? I had no idea... at 13 I enrolled in the 9th
> grade..." (26
> minutes or so in to a bit over 27 minutes).
experience with unschooling.
Here's part of the interview:
*******************
Q: ...So we were wondering if we could start with basically an example
of a typical day in the life of an unschooler.
A: ...but we�d wake up late, never wake up before 9, maybe 10 and then
wander� stumble out of bed, have breakfast and sit there and go what
am I going to do with my day. Perhaps being captivated by a project I
had going that day, make video, finish a book, maybe just did nothing
but kick up dirt and sit on the porch. Each day you had to face this
blank canvas and say �What am I going to do with my time.�
Q: Were your parents involved in guiding you to figure that stuff out
everyday? Or was it basically just up to you?
A: It was basically up to us... (She does go on to say they had books,
instruments, paper, pens and paints and could ask their parents for
help).
I don�t think you can unschool half-way. I think you really have to
somehow make your kid believe that it�s all up to them. The trick is
that, it doesn�t mean that your kid is totally free to flower and to
grow, it�s much more reverse psychology. �Not only do you have to
learn, but you have to love to learn.� The message is in a way even
more twisted. It�s not, �You have to read this book and take this test
because that�s the way it is. And you have to get an A or else you�re
gonna fail- sorry that�s just the rules.� Instead it�s, �you have to
read that book on our shelf and you have to read them all out of love
because you are just someone who loves to learn and if you don�t love
to learn well then you�re just a loser.� It�s more complicated
motivation. There has to be some element of guilt at work there. My
mom used to always say, �if you�re bored you�re boring.� I didn�t want
to be boring. That isn�t to say that trust isn�t at work there either.
*****************
This is *not* the unschooling we talk about here. These are *not* the
messages we are giving our children.
> If she had felt that she was "weird", which she says that she did,Learning isn't weird. And no one here is saying support "weird" over
> and her
> parents were supportive of "weird" but not of "mainstream", then her
> need to
> rebel against that to feel "normal" was probably pretty strong
"mainstream."
Unschooling doesn't preclude living in the world.
>I haven't seen that with any of the grown unschoolers I know. Yes,
>
> So, even if a parent is supportive, embracing of a child's
> interests, trusts the
> child's ability to learn, etc. etc., it may be that *that* child
> still will feel
> the need to escape from or be free of parents and family once they
> hit their
> teens and twenties.
there comes a time when unschooled adults want to live their own life,
but not in opposition to their parents.
As Katherine said, Ms. Taylor's parents didn't sound particularly
supportive.
> And, I believe, that this, the desire to be on one's own,Yes. And when it happens is different for every child.
> is actually very naturally a part of growing up.
> It isn't something to prevent,Is someone saying it should be prevented?
> but rather embrace.
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wtexans
From this interview: http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054, I'm quoting the interviewee, Astra Taylor: ===What I would have loved is to be an unschooling in an urban environment where you could go to art museums and take awesome classes about film making when you're a kid because then you could have all the richness and all the social interaction but just none of the bullshit which would be the best of both worlds.===
Lisa said: ===So, even if a parent is supportive, embracing of a child's interests, trusts the child's ability to learn, etc. etc., it may be that *that* child still will feel the need to escape from or be free of parents and family once they hit their teens and twenties.===
As others have said, I don't see her parents as having been supportive or embracing of her interests (based on what Astra said in the interview), and it's not the kind of unschooling promoted on this list.
If an unschooled kid is wanting to be in a more urban environment and to have access to art museums and film-making resources (classes certainly aren't the *only* option), a supportive parent would find ways to make that happen. Perhaps by moving to a more urban area, or making frequent trips to "the big city". By searching out resources for learning different ways to make films. Finding ways for that child to have the kind of social interaction they want without school being the only option for that (as it seemed to be for Astra).
From what Astra said, her wants weren't being met through unschooling, and that comes through in the opinion she's formed of unschooling. Think about how much richer of an experience unschooling could've been for her if she had been supported in the way we define "unschooling" on this list.
Glenda
Lisa said: ===So, even if a parent is supportive, embracing of a child's interests, trusts the child's ability to learn, etc. etc., it may be that *that* child still will feel the need to escape from or be free of parents and family once they hit their teens and twenties.===
As others have said, I don't see her parents as having been supportive or embracing of her interests (based on what Astra said in the interview), and it's not the kind of unschooling promoted on this list.
If an unschooled kid is wanting to be in a more urban environment and to have access to art museums and film-making resources (classes certainly aren't the *only* option), a supportive parent would find ways to make that happen. Perhaps by moving to a more urban area, or making frequent trips to "the big city". By searching out resources for learning different ways to make films. Finding ways for that child to have the kind of social interaction they want without school being the only option for that (as it seemed to be for Astra).
From what Astra said, her wants weren't being met through unschooling, and that comes through in the opinion she's formed of unschooling. Think about how much richer of an experience unschooling could've been for her if she had been supported in the way we define "unschooling" on this list.
Glenda
k
And if the unschooling parents have it in their heads that the
children can mess up unschooling or make it weird, that's way too much
responsibility laid on the child's shoulders.
Supposing it just wasn't feasible to send a child to the optimal
places and the resources were somehow out of reach, at least
temporarily until the parents figure out another way. Making
unschooling work still can't be on the child. They have few resources
of their own, other than their imagination. The parents have at least
somewhat more than that. Even if the child can't live in a city with
access to museums and can seldom visit. Of course being without access
to the internet makes finding good deals not as easy but I know from
looking around for myself even with internet access and some money, it
can be challenging.
I wasn't there and I don't know but it seems to me that Astra's
situation was unfortunate. It could have been better I think had the
parents been perhaps more forward looking and open to possibilities.
The most damaging thing I see happening is in the relationship between
parent and child which resulted from the parent's being unable or
unwilling to see their child as full of wonder
We've been talking about not attaching labels to our children. Weird
is a particularly nasty label that sticks for far too long. :((((
That's grievous.
~Katherine
children can mess up unschooling or make it weird, that's way too much
responsibility laid on the child's shoulders.
Supposing it just wasn't feasible to send a child to the optimal
places and the resources were somehow out of reach, at least
temporarily until the parents figure out another way. Making
unschooling work still can't be on the child. They have few resources
of their own, other than their imagination. The parents have at least
somewhat more than that. Even if the child can't live in a city with
access to museums and can seldom visit. Of course being without access
to the internet makes finding good deals not as easy but I know from
looking around for myself even with internet access and some money, it
can be challenging.
I wasn't there and I don't know but it seems to me that Astra's
situation was unfortunate. It could have been better I think had the
parents been perhaps more forward looking and open to possibilities.
The most damaging thing I see happening is in the relationship between
parent and child which resulted from the parent's being unable or
unwilling to see their child as full of wonder
We've been talking about not attaching labels to our children. Weird
is a particularly nasty label that sticks for far too long. :((((
That's grievous.
~Katherine
On 1/11/11, wtexans <wtexans@...> wrote:
> From this interview: http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054,
> I'm quoting the interviewee, Astra Taylor: ===What I would have loved is to
> be an unschooling in an urban environment where you could go to art museums
> and take awesome classes about film making when you're a kid because then
> you could have all the richness and all the social interaction but just none
> of the bullshit – which would be the best of both worlds.===
>
> Lisa said: ===So, even if a parent is supportive, embracing of a child's
> interests, trusts the child's ability to learn, etc. etc., it may be that
> *that* child still will feel the need to escape from or be free of parents
> and family once they hit their teens and twenties.===
>
> As others have said, I don't see her parents as having been supportive or
> embracing of her interests (based on what Astra said in the interview), and
> it's not the kind of unschooling promoted on this list.
>
> If an unschooled kid is wanting to be in a more urban environment and to
> have access to art museums and film-making resources (classes certainly
> aren't the *only* option), a supportive parent would find ways to make that
> happen. Perhaps by moving to a more urban area, or making frequent trips to
> "the big city". By searching out resources for learning different ways to
> make films. Finding ways for that child to have the kind of social
> interaction they want without school being the only option for that (as it
> seemed to be for Astra).
>
> From what Astra said, her wants weren't being met through unschooling, and
> that comes through in the opinion she's formed of unschooling. Think about
> how much richer of an experience unschooling could've been for her if she
> had been supported in the way we define "unschooling" on this list.
>
> Glenda
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
plaidpanties666
Lisa E Biesemeyer <l.biesemeyer@...> wrote:
Before the internet there were still other resources, other ways to make kids' lives bigger and richer - but to do that parents need to accept that the life they've chosen may not be as big and rich for kids as it is for parents.
---Meredith
>I didn't have anyThere's a subset of unschoolers where kids are free within the confines of their parents lifestyle - whether that be an alternative lifestyle or a religious lifestyle or an artistic lifestyle. One of the challenges of radical unschooling (for parents) involves stepping back from those goals and values and seeing that our kids have not chosen them, and that by "giving" them the value of our wonderful life we're restricting them in other ways.
> role models, and we were isolated in a pre-Internet bubble. What became of
> grown-up unschoolers? I had no idea...
Before the internet there were still other resources, other ways to make kids' lives bigger and richer - but to do that parents need to accept that the life they've chosen may not be as big and rich for kids as it is for parents.
---Meredith
Lisa E Biesemeyer
"Looks pretty hard to tell what happened. She claims or it happened."
It's always a challenge to *know* how much of a person's re-telling is accurate.
We probably couldn't know if her parents *really* thought her interest (or
obsession) with ivy league schools or school in general was silly, but if that's
what Astra Taylor thought or felt her parents thought, then that could be a
reason to "rebel" against or conform to their belief system depending on her
personality and need to fit in.
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's always a challenge to *know* how much of a person's re-telling is accurate.
We probably couldn't know if her parents *really* thought her interest (or
obsession) with ivy league schools or school in general was silly, but if that's
what Astra Taylor thought or felt her parents thought, then that could be a
reason to "rebel" against or conform to their belief system depending on her
personality and need to fit in.
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa E Biesemeyer
"Learning isn't weird. And no one here is saying support "weird" over
"mainstream.""
I completely agree. BUT what if an unschooled person feels that way? Maybe
Taylor's parents were counter-culture in the 80s, and Taylor felt "weird"
because of that. She doesn't seem to feel "weird" now, but she seemed to feel
like she wanted to explore being more "mainstream" as a teen.
"Is someone saying it [being on one's own] should be prevented?"
I haven't read or interpreted that. I've been on the list a very short time, but
my opinion is that all who participate in the discussions are working with their
children not against them.
My purpose for exploring Taylor is that she is an unschooled person, and maybe
even unschooled people, at 18yo (as Sandra illustrated in her post about Holly's
tattoo) will feel like "breaking free", even if just a bit. I think that desire
to explore adulthood is a part of growing up and worthy of embracing.
Lisa B
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"mainstream.""
I completely agree. BUT what if an unschooled person feels that way? Maybe
Taylor's parents were counter-culture in the 80s, and Taylor felt "weird"
because of that. She doesn't seem to feel "weird" now, but she seemed to feel
like she wanted to explore being more "mainstream" as a teen.
"Is someone saying it [being on one's own] should be prevented?"
I haven't read or interpreted that. I've been on the list a very short time, but
my opinion is that all who participate in the discussions are working with their
children not against them.
My purpose for exploring Taylor is that she is an unschooled person, and maybe
even unschooled people, at 18yo (as Sandra illustrated in her post about Holly's
tattoo) will feel like "breaking free", even if just a bit. I think that desire
to explore adulthood is a part of growing up and worthy of embracing.
Lisa B
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wtexans
===My purpose for exploring Taylor is that she is an unschooled person, and maybe even unschooled people, at 18yo (as Sandra illustrated in her post about Holly's tattoo) will feel like "breaking free", even if just a bit.===
"Breaking free" is a negative phrase, though. It's not at all a phrase I would choose as one to use in conjunction with the story Sandra told about Holly's tattoo! There is SO much more to that story than "Holly turned 18 and got a tattoo", which is how you've encapsulated it by using the term "breaking free" in conjunction with the story. Taking that story and coming out of it with the perspective that Holly was "breaking free" seems to be a rather traditional-parenting viewpoint, to me.
===I've been on the list a very short time=== AND ===maybe even unschooled people, at 18yo (as Sandra illustrated in her post about Holly's tattoo) will feel like "breaking free"===
Having been on the list a very short time (your words), you are perhaps not familiar with the parents here who have kids older than 18. Kids who chose/choose to stay in their parents' home after turning 18 because they enjoy(ed) being there. They enjoy(ed) the environment. They enjoy(ed) their parents. There's nothing for them to escape from. When they leave home, it's because they're going *towards* something else, not because they're "breaking free."
Glenda
"Breaking free" is a negative phrase, though. It's not at all a phrase I would choose as one to use in conjunction with the story Sandra told about Holly's tattoo! There is SO much more to that story than "Holly turned 18 and got a tattoo", which is how you've encapsulated it by using the term "breaking free" in conjunction with the story. Taking that story and coming out of it with the perspective that Holly was "breaking free" seems to be a rather traditional-parenting viewpoint, to me.
===I've been on the list a very short time=== AND ===maybe even unschooled people, at 18yo (as Sandra illustrated in her post about Holly's tattoo) will feel like "breaking free"===
Having been on the list a very short time (your words), you are perhaps not familiar with the parents here who have kids older than 18. Kids who chose/choose to stay in their parents' home after turning 18 because they enjoy(ed) being there. They enjoy(ed) the environment. They enjoy(ed) their parents. There's nothing for them to escape from. When they leave home, it's because they're going *towards* something else, not because they're "breaking free."
Glenda
Jenny Cyphers
***My purpose for exploring Taylor is that she is an unschooled person, and
maybe
even unschooled people, at 18yo (as Sandra illustrated in her post about
Holly's
tattoo) will feel like "breaking free", even if just a bit. I think that desire
to explore adulthood is a part of growing up and worthy of embracing.***
It doesn't need to start at 18 though. Chamille is out and about most days.
She's very independent. Her friends range in age from 13-30 and she fits right
in with a mix that generally lands in the middle. Some of her friends are
already adults. At 16, she finds that she relates more with adults than she
does with younger people. She has a few really good friends that are younger
and a handful of friends that go to school. In general, she gets along better
with kids that don't go to school, so that is usually older people. This is a
new transition.
I don't think she is breaking free. I don't think she will ever feel that. I
don't think Holly waiting until the age of 18 was about breaking free. It was
the age that she could legally get a tattoo on her own accord. That was my
understanding. By the end of the month there will be a girl living with us that
is needing to break free, has broken free, but has no place to go and be safe
doing that. Having opened my house to lots of kids, I'm not going into this
blindly. We've been openly talking with the girl and her mom for about 3 months
now. She's, in a sense, at the same sort of transition that my daughter is in,
needing to be out there, but still needing the comforts of a soft landing and a
cozy nest.
I wish more parents would give that to their kids. Chamille meets a LOT of
couch surfers, young adults, that for whatever reason aren't able to continue
being in their safe nests until they are able and ready to jump into the
adult/self sufficient world. Sometimes I wish I had more couches, more rooms,
more money to feed people. I'm in the business of nest building! Right at this
moment, Margaux and Chamille are playing video games together with one of our
couch surfers. There is happy calm going on.
There is a common theme among the kids that end up at our house. They aren't
happy, their lives have been a series of preventable struggles and survival.
EVERYone of the kids, and I use that term loosely, that end up here say that
they like it here because there is happiness and calm and it feels like what a
family should feel like. If Chamille wasn't the person she is, I wouldn't be
doing what I'm doing.
One of the things that I'm avoiding is for my children to need to break free.
They are free already. Chamille has always been free, but has chosen not to
use her freedom until recently. I really think that kids who are supported in
all that they do won't need to break free. What is there to break free from?
I don't know Taylor. Perhaps her needing to break free had more to do with
exploring a world that wasn't yet available. Perhaps, when she got there, she
felt free because that is what exploring does.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maybe
even unschooled people, at 18yo (as Sandra illustrated in her post about
Holly's
tattoo) will feel like "breaking free", even if just a bit. I think that desire
to explore adulthood is a part of growing up and worthy of embracing.***
It doesn't need to start at 18 though. Chamille is out and about most days.
She's very independent. Her friends range in age from 13-30 and she fits right
in with a mix that generally lands in the middle. Some of her friends are
already adults. At 16, she finds that she relates more with adults than she
does with younger people. She has a few really good friends that are younger
and a handful of friends that go to school. In general, she gets along better
with kids that don't go to school, so that is usually older people. This is a
new transition.
I don't think she is breaking free. I don't think she will ever feel that. I
don't think Holly waiting until the age of 18 was about breaking free. It was
the age that she could legally get a tattoo on her own accord. That was my
understanding. By the end of the month there will be a girl living with us that
is needing to break free, has broken free, but has no place to go and be safe
doing that. Having opened my house to lots of kids, I'm not going into this
blindly. We've been openly talking with the girl and her mom for about 3 months
now. She's, in a sense, at the same sort of transition that my daughter is in,
needing to be out there, but still needing the comforts of a soft landing and a
cozy nest.
I wish more parents would give that to their kids. Chamille meets a LOT of
couch surfers, young adults, that for whatever reason aren't able to continue
being in their safe nests until they are able and ready to jump into the
adult/self sufficient world. Sometimes I wish I had more couches, more rooms,
more money to feed people. I'm in the business of nest building! Right at this
moment, Margaux and Chamille are playing video games together with one of our
couch surfers. There is happy calm going on.
There is a common theme among the kids that end up at our house. They aren't
happy, their lives have been a series of preventable struggles and survival.
EVERYone of the kids, and I use that term loosely, that end up here say that
they like it here because there is happiness and calm and it feels like what a
family should feel like. If Chamille wasn't the person she is, I wouldn't be
doing what I'm doing.
One of the things that I'm avoiding is for my children to need to break free.
They are free already. Chamille has always been free, but has chosen not to
use her freedom until recently. I really think that kids who are supported in
all that they do won't need to break free. What is there to break free from?
I don't know Taylor. Perhaps her needing to break free had more to do with
exploring a world that wasn't yet available. Perhaps, when she got there, she
felt free because that is what exploring does.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa E Biesemeyer
"It doesn't need to start at 18 though"
I wrote a bunch of ages when I was originally composing that email... it just
got cluttered. 18 is the age a lot of people think of as the age when the desire
to be on one's own is possible if not only because the government says "you're
an adult".
"I don't think she is breaking free. I don't think she will ever feel that. I
don't think Holly waiting until the age of 18 was about breaking free. "
I think Holly was doing what she wanted to do and could do without adult
consent. I don't know that "breaking free" is the best terminology for what that
is, what that feels like. Other ways to say it?
At 18yo, I also got a tattoo (my first of many). I had wanted it for some time
before that, and my parents didn't really have any issues with me getting one.
But there was something very exciting and free (ing) about getting a tattoo on
my own without needing my parent's consent. I didn't feel like I was "breaking
free" as much as I felt free to make an adult decision on my own. I'm glad my
mom and dad approved, but I probably would have gotten the tattoo even if they
hadn't (it felt good that they liked it, though).
"Sometimes I wish I had more couches, more rooms,
more money to feed people. I'm in the business of nest building! Right at this
moment, Margaux and Chamille are playing video games together with one of our
couch surfers. There is happy calm going on."
My home growing up was a haven for friends in trouble. We housed many, many
young people who needed compassion. My dad HATED it, but my mom was just the
kind of person who really loved kids and wanted people to feel wanted and
loved. She's a nurturer through and through. I imagine that she saved a lot of
kids during my teen years. I feel very blessed to not have ever felt the need
to look elsewhere (outside my home) for love and support as well as to have been
the home where others knew there was enough love and support (and couches) to go
around.
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wrote a bunch of ages when I was originally composing that email... it just
got cluttered. 18 is the age a lot of people think of as the age when the desire
to be on one's own is possible if not only because the government says "you're
an adult".
"I don't think she is breaking free. I don't think she will ever feel that. I
don't think Holly waiting until the age of 18 was about breaking free. "
I think Holly was doing what she wanted to do and could do without adult
consent. I don't know that "breaking free" is the best terminology for what that
is, what that feels like. Other ways to say it?
At 18yo, I also got a tattoo (my first of many). I had wanted it for some time
before that, and my parents didn't really have any issues with me getting one.
But there was something very exciting and free (ing) about getting a tattoo on
my own without needing my parent's consent. I didn't feel like I was "breaking
free" as much as I felt free to make an adult decision on my own. I'm glad my
mom and dad approved, but I probably would have gotten the tattoo even if they
hadn't (it felt good that they liked it, though).
"Sometimes I wish I had more couches, more rooms,
more money to feed people. I'm in the business of nest building! Right at this
moment, Margaux and Chamille are playing video games together with one of our
couch surfers. There is happy calm going on."
My home growing up was a haven for friends in trouble. We housed many, many
young people who needed compassion. My dad HATED it, but my mom was just the
kind of person who really loved kids and wanted people to feel wanted and
loved. She's a nurturer through and through. I imagine that she saved a lot of
kids during my teen years. I feel very blessed to not have ever felt the need
to look elsewhere (outside my home) for love and support as well as to have been
the home where others knew there was enough love and support (and couches) to go
around.
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think Holly was doing what she wanted to do and could do without adult
consent. I don't know that "breaking free" is the best terminology for what that
is, what that feels like. Other ways to say it?-=-
To talk about what "that" feels like, when it wasn't hypothetical and it was a real story, though, bothers me a bit.
Holly said she felt like she was following the rules by not getting a tattoo sooner.
She says (sitting right here) that she got the tattoo when her friend who could do the tattoo needed money, but it wasn't charity. She had been planning to get a tattoo anyway.
So I guess if her friend hadn't expressed that he needed money, she would have gotten one later, when something else became the catalyst or the convenience factor that made her decide that.
She didn't make a reactionary decision. It wasn't "breaking free." It was making a decision with many factors in mind, and calmly, without malice.
I asked her whether it made her feel more adult, or separate from us.
She said "I expected it to, but it didn't."
We were fine, and Holly was fine, and we still are.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
consent. I don't know that "breaking free" is the best terminology for what that
is, what that feels like. Other ways to say it?-=-
To talk about what "that" feels like, when it wasn't hypothetical and it was a real story, though, bothers me a bit.
Holly said she felt like she was following the rules by not getting a tattoo sooner.
She says (sitting right here) that she got the tattoo when her friend who could do the tattoo needed money, but it wasn't charity. She had been planning to get a tattoo anyway.
So I guess if her friend hadn't expressed that he needed money, she would have gotten one later, when something else became the catalyst or the convenience factor that made her decide that.
She didn't make a reactionary decision. It wasn't "breaking free." It was making a decision with many factors in mind, and calmly, without malice.
I asked her whether it made her feel more adult, or separate from us.
She said "I expected it to, but it didn't."
We were fine, and Holly was fine, and we still are.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Molly
--- In [email protected], Lisa E Biesemeyer <l.biesemeyer@...> wrote:
===My purpose for exploring Taylor is that she is an unschooled person, and maybe
> even unschooled people, at 18yo (as Sandra illustrated in her post about Holly's
> tattoo) will feel like "breaking free", even if just a bit. I think that desire
> to explore adulthood is a part of growing up and worthy of embracing.===
I don't want to speak for what Sandra was trying to illustrate, but I didn't read it as Holly "breaking free". It was about Holly being legally old enough in the state she lived in to get a tattoo on her own. The difference between Holly (an unschooled teen) and myself (a schooled teen) is that she shared that moment with her parents. They knew of her desire, and supported her choice, and she made a very responsible decision about her own body. (The tattoo is beautiful!) I made a knee jerk, look at me I'm old enough, you can't tell me what to do decision. Thankfully, I still love my big tattoo, (and went on to get more!) and may love it even more after this discussion for what it will bring to mind now!
===The desire to explore adulthood is part of growing up and worthy of embracing===
Of course it is!! I will embrace that in my own children as it arrives (and it has already started!). Hopefully, though, with what I have learned and what I will learn between now and their adulthood, my boys won't feel the need to make decisions in the way that I did, for the reasons that I did. I am on this path so that the relationship that I have with my boys is one built on honesty and trust and unconditional love, not on guilt and fear and manipulation.
====My purpose for exploring Taylor is that she is an unschooled person, and maybe
even unschooled people, at 18yo====
From the interview with Astra -
=== it's, "you have to read that book on our shelf and you have to read them all out of love because you are just someone who loves to learn and if you don't love to learn well then you're just a loser.' It's more complicated motivation. There has to be some element of guilt at work there. My mom used to always say, "if you're bored you're boring." I didn't want to be boring.That isn't to say that trust isn't at work there either"===
From searching around on the internet and reading different library books, I have read many different ideas about what unschooling is, and how people live it in their lives. I keep coming back to this list, and reading here, because this seems to be the version that resonates with me the most. Especially all of the people with grown unschoolers who have gone through each and every stage of unschooling, and can offer advice with that wisdom in mind. A year ago I could have called us "Unschoolers", and the label would have sounded nice, but I am not sure it would have actually described what we were doing. I could have told other people we were unschooling, and try to offer advice or argue my point, but I don't think it would have meant much. Even now, I am hesitant to try to explain something to someone which I am still newly learning and living. I guess what I mean is, if you are new to unschooling and really want to learn about it and live it, be mindful who you listen to when they describe unschooling to you. If it doesn't look much like unschooling, the label doesn't make it so.
Molly Phipps
k
>>>If it doesn't look much like unschooling, the label doesn't make itso.<<<
If the parent/child relationship is a knot of confusion and baggage left for
the grown child to go through and unravel (that is perhaps beyond
unraveling), who cares what label it wears or what it looks like.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
>>>If it doesn't look much like unschooling, the label doesn't make itso.<<<
-=-If the parent/child relationship is a knot of confusion and baggage left for
the grown child to go through and unravel (that is perhaps beyond
unraveling), who cares what label it wears or what it looks like.-=-
Ooh. OOOOH! I know.
I care.
If a child grows up resentful and baggage-bearing, and the parent has no idea what happened, and those two people are going around saying "We unschooled, and here is the result, I care 1) what label it wears and 2) what it looks like.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Yes ok. It matters to someone what it's called but the name is not what
makes it what it is.
~Katherine
makes it what it is.
~Katherine
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 1:09 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> >>>If it doesn't look much like unschooling, the label doesn't make it
> so.<<<
>
> -=-If the parent/child relationship is a knot of confusion and baggage left
> for
> the grown child to go through and unravel (that is perhaps beyond
> unraveling), who cares what label it wears or what it looks like.-=-
>
>
> Ooh. OOOOH! I know.
>
> I care.
>
> If a child grows up resentful and baggage-bearing, and the parent has no
> idea what happened, and those two people are going around saying "We
> unschooled, and here is the result, I care 1) what label it wears and 2)
> what it looks like.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bernadette Lynn
On 11 January 2011 18:32, Lisa E Biesemeyer <l.biesemeyer@...>wrote:
as long afterwards. School obviously had a big effect on her, it changed her
outlook, her motivations and her ambitions, so however good her first few
years of unschooling were (or weren't) she isn't wholly an unschooled young
adult.
Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>She was unschooled for six or seven years, maybe, but she was schooled for
>
> My purpose for exploring Taylor is that she is an unschooled person, and
> maybe
> even unschooled people, at 18yo (as Sandra illustrated in her post about
> Holly's
> tattoo) will feel like "breaking free", even if just a bit. I think that
> desire
> to explore adulthood is a part of growing up and worthy of embracing.
>
as long afterwards. School obviously had a big effect on her, it changed her
outlook, her motivations and her ambitions, so however good her first few
years of unschooling were (or weren't) she isn't wholly an unschooled young
adult.
Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes ok. It matters to someone what it's called but the name is not what
makes it what it is.-=-
That is true.
It also seems increasingly true that calling it unschooling when it isn't the sort of well-examined unschooling promoted and celebrated on this list is part of what makes people angry (at us, sometimes, or at themselves, or others who gave lame advice) when some time passes and then they discover there were other, better sources.
The name doesn't make things what they are.
If they had called it something besides "unschooling," it wouldn't matter to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
makes it what it is.-=-
That is true.
It also seems increasingly true that calling it unschooling when it isn't the sort of well-examined unschooling promoted and celebrated on this list is part of what makes people angry (at us, sometimes, or at themselves, or others who gave lame advice) when some time passes and then they discover there were other, better sources.
The name doesn't make things what they are.
If they had called it something besides "unschooling," it wouldn't matter to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa E Biesemeyer
"To talk about what "that" feels like, when it wasn't hypothetical and it was a
real story, though, bothers me a bit."
I can see why it would bother you. I would be bothered if someone were using my
child's experience as an illustration without really knowing the situation or my
child.
"She didn't make a reactionary decision. It wasn't "breaking free." It was
making a decision with many factors in mind, and calmly, without malice."
Malice? I don't think that I said or implied that a child choosing to act on
their own as an adult or separate from a parent/without a parent's consent is
trying to hurt anyone.
Perhaps "breaking free" is bringing that to mind for you. It does feel
malicious now that you write that. Yuck! I will think of other ways to say what
I mean...
Lisa B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
real story, though, bothers me a bit."
I can see why it would bother you. I would be bothered if someone were using my
child's experience as an illustration without really knowing the situation or my
child.
"She didn't make a reactionary decision. It wasn't "breaking free." It was
making a decision with many factors in mind, and calmly, without malice."
Malice? I don't think that I said or implied that a child choosing to act on
their own as an adult or separate from a parent/without a parent's consent is
trying to hurt anyone.
Perhaps "breaking free" is bringing that to mind for you. It does feel
malicious now that you write that. Yuck! I will think of other ways to say what
I mean...
Lisa B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Malice? I don't think that I said or implied that a child choosing to act on
their own as an adult or separate from a parent/without a parent's consent is
trying to hurt anyone.-=-
But I wasn't writing just specifically to any one person. Please remember that, about this list. It's good for people to address the general ideas and not the individuals.
Of course sometimes we want to know more, but writing about ideas and principles is the best way to go.
I did use Holly as a specific example, and it's true that people can take that and run with it, but to try to interpret it *as Holly* rather than as a general idea goes back to particular people.
This doesn't seem very clear, the way I've written it above. I'm sorry. I have houseguests and have had for a week, and have been having a lot of busy, exhausting fun.
-=-"She didn't make a reactionary decision. It wasn't "breaking free." It was
making a decision with many factors in mind, and calmly, without malice."-=-
Some teens have chosen, and do chose, sex partners maliciously, married people out of spite, gotten tattoos or piercings to piss off their relatives, worn things they know will be irritating to adults. That can only happen when the relationship is antagonistic. "Breaking" anything is pretty sudden, reactionary and violent, I think. Breaking one's word, breaking a contract, breaking the sound barrier... :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
their own as an adult or separate from a parent/without a parent's consent is
trying to hurt anyone.-=-
But I wasn't writing just specifically to any one person. Please remember that, about this list. It's good for people to address the general ideas and not the individuals.
Of course sometimes we want to know more, but writing about ideas and principles is the best way to go.
I did use Holly as a specific example, and it's true that people can take that and run with it, but to try to interpret it *as Holly* rather than as a general idea goes back to particular people.
This doesn't seem very clear, the way I've written it above. I'm sorry. I have houseguests and have had for a week, and have been having a lot of busy, exhausting fun.
-=-"She didn't make a reactionary decision. It wasn't "breaking free." It was
making a decision with many factors in mind, and calmly, without malice."-=-
Some teens have chosen, and do chose, sex partners maliciously, married people out of spite, gotten tattoos or piercings to piss off their relatives, worn things they know will be irritating to adults. That can only happen when the relationship is antagonistic. "Breaking" anything is pretty sudden, reactionary and violent, I think. Breaking one's word, breaking a contract, breaking the sound barrier... :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I remember a couple week ago there was a discussion in this list about reading
cursive.
My son is 8 and I had no idea if he could read cursive.
I guess I assumed that probably not.
He started reading early and he learned mostly playing Roblox on line and typing
with us helping him as much as he wanted.
So lately we watched the cartoon series Deltoras Quest ( based on the books by
Emily Rodda) and MD found out that we had the first 3 books to the next
series written after Deltoras Quest is done. I had picked them up at Salvation
Army ( thrift store) some time ago by chance.
We have been reading the Dragons of Deltora together every night in bed.
We are really enjoying it, even my 4 year old and she does fall asleep most
times unless I am too tired and only read a couple
chapters. Since I am enjoying the book as much as they are I tend to read for an
hour and that is too much for her and she is asleep before we are done.
But back to reading cursive. The book has drawn out maps and notes and sometimes
I cannot read them even with glasses . So last night there was a hand
written sign/ note in there and it was small and blurry so MD said he can read
it for me.
He went on to read it all for me. When I looked at it I realize it was all in
cursive. I had no idea he could read cursive and read it well and very confident
of it.\
I asked him and he said it was easy for him.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cursive.
My son is 8 and I had no idea if he could read cursive.
I guess I assumed that probably not.
He started reading early and he learned mostly playing Roblox on line and typing
with us helping him as much as he wanted.
So lately we watched the cartoon series Deltoras Quest ( based on the books by
Emily Rodda) and MD found out that we had the first 3 books to the next
series written after Deltoras Quest is done. I had picked them up at Salvation
Army ( thrift store) some time ago by chance.
We have been reading the Dragons of Deltora together every night in bed.
We are really enjoying it, even my 4 year old and she does fall asleep most
times unless I am too tired and only read a couple
chapters. Since I am enjoying the book as much as they are I tend to read for an
hour and that is too much for her and she is asleep before we are done.
But back to reading cursive. The book has drawn out maps and notes and sometimes
I cannot read them even with glasses . So last night there was a hand
written sign/ note in there and it was small and blurry so MD said he can read
it for me.
He went on to read it all for me. When I looked at it I realize it was all in
cursive. I had no idea he could read cursive and read it well and very confident
of it.\
I asked him and he said it was easy for him.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My purpose for exploring Taylor is that she is an unschooled person, ...-=-
If I could have one wish about homeschooling it would be that fundamentalist Christian creationists wouldn't be homeschooling their kids so they could tell them a pack of reconstructist lies.
If I had two wishes, it would be that people whose parents were not any good at ANY kind of homeschooling would stop saying "I was unschooled."
There are more people claiming to have unschooled than there are people who have done it really well. I prefer to deal with and write of the latter group, and discredit the former.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If I could have one wish about homeschooling it would be that fundamentalist Christian creationists wouldn't be homeschooling their kids so they could tell them a pack of reconstructist lies.
If I had two wishes, it would be that people whose parents were not any good at ANY kind of homeschooling would stop saying "I was unschooled."
There are more people claiming to have unschooled than there are people who have done it really well. I prefer to deal with and write of the latter group, and discredit the former.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kristi_beguin
If you haven't read grown unschooler Idzie's blog, you might find her interviews of grown unschoolers, and links to other sites, informative, and possibly more representative of what is discussed here.
http://yes-i-can-write.blogspot.com/2010/05/unschooling-grows-up-collection-of.html
And one of her more recent interviews invites other grown unschoolers to participate in the project.
http://yes-i-can-write.blogspot.com/2011/01/grown-unschooler-jaclyn-dolamore-art.html
http://yes-i-can-write.blogspot.com/2010/05/unschooling-grows-up-collection-of.html
And one of her more recent interviews invites other grown unschoolers to participate in the project.
http://yes-i-can-write.blogspot.com/2011/01/grown-unschooler-jaclyn-dolamore-art.html
Sandra Dodd
I was really busy on the 10th of January and missed this discussion. I'm still catching up from having had a lot of company.
For this list, it can be important to remember that what people call unschooling might be quite different from the kind of radical unschooling Joyce and I have described and collected writings on. Others describe it too, and one of us saves and web-publishes it. There are MANY people who claim unschooling who read our accounts and are shocked that ANYONE would live the way we do. Many families consider unschooling to be something done (or not done) during school hours, in lieu of school. Many think that letting a child do his math lessons when and where he wants to is the epitome of unschooling. If he can wait until another day or week, and can do it on the couch or in the yard, they feel themselves to be unschooling. Some first "teach" their children to read, and then leave them to read the rest of their "education," and consider that unschooling.
-=-She goes on to discuss how this (school) was a shocking experience, and how she
literally became motivated by grades, stopped reading other than what was
assigned, etc. Still, she continued to go to school. She went on to college by
16 (I think) and Brown graduate school by 19yo, but ended up dropping out,
realizing that it didn't fit her. When she stopped pursuing ivy league
education, she claims her parents were happy that she got over her silly
obsession with the ivy league (paraphrasing). This seemed really judgmental to
me, which I could see being a reason for her to reach out to "the mainstream".
If she had felt that she was "weird", which she says that she did, and her
parents were supportive of "weird" but not of "mainstream", then her need to
rebel against that to feel "normal" was probably pretty strong-=-
She was neglected at home until she was 12 or so, then, and decided to go to school at 13, looks like to me. By the time she was 16 she had finished or dropped out of school and she hothoused her college education. She wasn't grown before she had fully dedicated herself to school and schooling. Then she dropped out of that.
How is that an unschooling story, really? It's someone using the word, but not someone having grown up in a rich, supportive life of learning without school.
-=-So, even if a parent is supportive, embracing of a child's interests, trusts the
child's ability to learn, etc. etc., it may be that *that* child still will feel
the need to escape from or be free of parents and family once they hit their
teens and twenties. And, I believe, that this, the desire to be on one's own,
is actually very naturally a part of growing up. It isn't something to prevent,
but rather embrace.-=-
I don't know anyone who has tried to prevent a child growing up and leaving. Here's what I wrote about Kirby a few months ago, in a text-based interview:
In case it's hard to read below, it's here: http://featherandnestkim.blogspot.com/2010/11/unschooling-surprise-sandra-dodd-is-in.html
and there's a quote and a photo of baby Kirby here: http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2010/12/arrivals-and-departures.html
Kim: I feel the same way. So privileged to know about our kids in that connected way. So your children are older now, can you share about them and what they are doing in their lives?
Sandra: Kirby is 24 and lives in Austin, Texas. The company he works for, Blizzard Entertainment, paid to move him there, just as he was turning 21. He's not allowed to publically talk about what he does at work, so I can't share that, but those who recognize the company name will be able to make a guess.
We keep in touch with Kirby by various electronic means, and we see him a couple of times a year. He was in town for a wedding in summer. His brother drove out there to surprise him on his birthday. Kirby and I went to a homeschooling conference in California. In December we're meeting at a friend's house in Texas, between our towns.
Kim: Do you miss him lots? Stupid question!
Sandra: No. I thought I would, but it's fine. I like to see him being so independent. I enjoy the excitement in his voice when he shares his firsts. First big purchases, first moving from an apartment to a house. He said he really appreciated that we always had milk and toilet paper, now that he sees that it's something someone has to think about and do.
Keith, Holly and I drove out to visit him in his apartment. Holly has been a couple of other times, flying. Keith and I are visiting again in Spring, to see the house he shares with three co-workers.
Things like Facebook, Skype and cellphones help a lot with separations. We're never completely apart.
I think when the child leaves naturally and positively, for a good reason, and the parents were willing to have him stay longer, there are fewer regrets and frustrations than under other circumstances. When kids are small, the mom is constantly on call. When Holly was born I had two and five year old boys. I know what it's like to have three young children. I also know what it's like to have three teens driving. But when they're calmly and confidently grown, the mom can leave for a month and they'll still be okay.
I think when they get to be 19, 20, the feeling can come that they can take care of themselves, and they might feel crowded, and the parents might feel crowded.
We have friends and relatives who basically threw their kids out at 18, or started charging them rent. I think that's cruel. It makes kids dread growing up, and that's not healthy.
Kim: Yes, I don't understand that at all (throwing kids out I mean).
Sandra: We figured a gradual, natural separation would be a better match for unschooling. If we didn't call a halt to attachment parenting because a child turned five or six, why have a new artificial cut-off point at 18? It didn't make sense.
Kim: That makes so much sense. I've worried about the day Lew moves out and I really shouldn't of course. Wasted energy. But I love your response. I'll hold onto that.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
For this list, it can be important to remember that what people call unschooling might be quite different from the kind of radical unschooling Joyce and I have described and collected writings on. Others describe it too, and one of us saves and web-publishes it. There are MANY people who claim unschooling who read our accounts and are shocked that ANYONE would live the way we do. Many families consider unschooling to be something done (or not done) during school hours, in lieu of school. Many think that letting a child do his math lessons when and where he wants to is the epitome of unschooling. If he can wait until another day or week, and can do it on the couch or in the yard, they feel themselves to be unschooling. Some first "teach" their children to read, and then leave them to read the rest of their "education," and consider that unschooling.
-=-She goes on to discuss how this (school) was a shocking experience, and how she
literally became motivated by grades, stopped reading other than what was
assigned, etc. Still, she continued to go to school. She went on to college by
16 (I think) and Brown graduate school by 19yo, but ended up dropping out,
realizing that it didn't fit her. When she stopped pursuing ivy league
education, she claims her parents were happy that she got over her silly
obsession with the ivy league (paraphrasing). This seemed really judgmental to
me, which I could see being a reason for her to reach out to "the mainstream".
If she had felt that she was "weird", which she says that she did, and her
parents were supportive of "weird" but not of "mainstream", then her need to
rebel against that to feel "normal" was probably pretty strong-=-
She was neglected at home until she was 12 or so, then, and decided to go to school at 13, looks like to me. By the time she was 16 she had finished or dropped out of school and she hothoused her college education. She wasn't grown before she had fully dedicated herself to school and schooling. Then she dropped out of that.
How is that an unschooling story, really? It's someone using the word, but not someone having grown up in a rich, supportive life of learning without school.
-=-So, even if a parent is supportive, embracing of a child's interests, trusts the
child's ability to learn, etc. etc., it may be that *that* child still will feel
the need to escape from or be free of parents and family once they hit their
teens and twenties. And, I believe, that this, the desire to be on one's own,
is actually very naturally a part of growing up. It isn't something to prevent,
but rather embrace.-=-
I don't know anyone who has tried to prevent a child growing up and leaving. Here's what I wrote about Kirby a few months ago, in a text-based interview:
In case it's hard to read below, it's here: http://featherandnestkim.blogspot.com/2010/11/unschooling-surprise-sandra-dodd-is-in.html
and there's a quote and a photo of baby Kirby here: http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2010/12/arrivals-and-departures.html
Kim: I feel the same way. So privileged to know about our kids in that connected way. So your children are older now, can you share about them and what they are doing in their lives?
Sandra: Kirby is 24 and lives in Austin, Texas. The company he works for, Blizzard Entertainment, paid to move him there, just as he was turning 21. He's not allowed to publically talk about what he does at work, so I can't share that, but those who recognize the company name will be able to make a guess.
We keep in touch with Kirby by various electronic means, and we see him a couple of times a year. He was in town for a wedding in summer. His brother drove out there to surprise him on his birthday. Kirby and I went to a homeschooling conference in California. In December we're meeting at a friend's house in Texas, between our towns.
Kim: Do you miss him lots? Stupid question!
Sandra: No. I thought I would, but it's fine. I like to see him being so independent. I enjoy the excitement in his voice when he shares his firsts. First big purchases, first moving from an apartment to a house. He said he really appreciated that we always had milk and toilet paper, now that he sees that it's something someone has to think about and do.
Keith, Holly and I drove out to visit him in his apartment. Holly has been a couple of other times, flying. Keith and I are visiting again in Spring, to see the house he shares with three co-workers.
Things like Facebook, Skype and cellphones help a lot with separations. We're never completely apart.
I think when the child leaves naturally and positively, for a good reason, and the parents were willing to have him stay longer, there are fewer regrets and frustrations than under other circumstances. When kids are small, the mom is constantly on call. When Holly was born I had two and five year old boys. I know what it's like to have three young children. I also know what it's like to have three teens driving. But when they're calmly and confidently grown, the mom can leave for a month and they'll still be okay.
I think when they get to be 19, 20, the feeling can come that they can take care of themselves, and they might feel crowded, and the parents might feel crowded.
We have friends and relatives who basically threw their kids out at 18, or started charging them rent. I think that's cruel. It makes kids dread growing up, and that's not healthy.
Kim: Yes, I don't understand that at all (throwing kids out I mean).
Sandra: We figured a gradual, natural separation would be a better match for unschooling. If we didn't call a halt to attachment parenting because a child turned five or six, why have a new artificial cut-off point at 18? It didn't make sense.
Kim: That makes so much sense. I've worried about the day Lew moves out and I really shouldn't of course. Wasted energy. But I love your response. I'll hold onto that.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Quoting Robin, quoting the interview...
-=-I don�t think you can unschool half-way. I think you really have to
somehow make your kid believe that it�s all up to them. The trick is
that, it doesn�t mean that your kid is totally free to flower and to
grow, it�s much more reverse psychology. �Not only do you have to
learn, but you have to love to learn.� The message is in a way even
more twisted. It�s not, �You have to read this book and take this test
because that�s the way it is. And you have to get an A or else you�re
gonna fail- sorry that�s just the rules.� Instead it�s, �you have to
read that book on our shelf and you have to read them all out of love
because you are just someone who loves to learn and if you don�t love
to learn well then you�re just a loser.� It�s more complicated
motivation. There has to be some element of guilt at work there. My
mom used to always say, �if you�re bored you�re boring.� I didn�t want
to be boring. That isn�t to say that trust isn�t at work there either.-=-
It looks like her parents didn't even unschool halfway.
I have NEVER heard of that motivation being used, "If you don't love to learn well then you're just a loser."
WHAT!? If unschooling is done well, a child doesn't NEED to "love to learn." He won't even know he's learning, when life is all full of learning. And if life is joyous and fun, how could he need to decide whether he loved joy and fun or not?
-=-My mom used to always say, "if you're bored you're boring."-=-
I restored the quotes. When a word file with "curly quotes" moves through other processes, they're lost. If anyone finds any of my old web pages that still have such garblyness, please let me know.
-=-My mom used to always say, "if you're bored you're boring."-=-
If her mom always said that, her MOM was boring. This part of the discussion was read aloud when we had company last week, and I said maybe a cartoonist should make a cartoon of a kid saying to a mom, "If I'm bored, you're boring." The question was asked, though, what the mom's response should be. I had been thinking of a single frame. But in unrelated banter the same week, we had discussed the lightbulb-over-the-head cartoon motif that means "I just had an idea." If those new curly-looking bulbs become standard, there might come to be kids who don't get the visual reference. And a drawing of one of those over someone's head would be odd. Holly said, "I just had an ecologically responsible idea!" (or maybe she said "energy-efficient idea," but she's asleep and I can't ask--maybe Robin or Julie remembers).
In any case, that mom should have had many more and better ideas.
And in most people's follow-up response cartoon imagination, the mom probably didn't get the idea to be less boring. She probably got a punitive, angry black smudge above her head. My mother would have hit me if I had said "If I'm bored, you're boring." But eventually my mom pretty much thought anything that didn't involve the drinking of alcohol was boring.
Here's something I wrote about boredom many years back:
http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore
A quote (which I think I'll take to Just Add Light and Stir):
Sometimes the real message behind "I'm bored" is "I'm little and feeling agitated and vaguely unhappy and I don't know what I can do to get over this uncomfortable feeling. What would you do if you were my age, in this house, on a day like this?"
I think that deserves a helpful, respectful response.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I don�t think you can unschool half-way. I think you really have to
somehow make your kid believe that it�s all up to them. The trick is
that, it doesn�t mean that your kid is totally free to flower and to
grow, it�s much more reverse psychology. �Not only do you have to
learn, but you have to love to learn.� The message is in a way even
more twisted. It�s not, �You have to read this book and take this test
because that�s the way it is. And you have to get an A or else you�re
gonna fail- sorry that�s just the rules.� Instead it�s, �you have to
read that book on our shelf and you have to read them all out of love
because you are just someone who loves to learn and if you don�t love
to learn well then you�re just a loser.� It�s more complicated
motivation. There has to be some element of guilt at work there. My
mom used to always say, �if you�re bored you�re boring.� I didn�t want
to be boring. That isn�t to say that trust isn�t at work there either.-=-
It looks like her parents didn't even unschool halfway.
I have NEVER heard of that motivation being used, "If you don't love to learn well then you're just a loser."
WHAT!? If unschooling is done well, a child doesn't NEED to "love to learn." He won't even know he's learning, when life is all full of learning. And if life is joyous and fun, how could he need to decide whether he loved joy and fun or not?
-=-My mom used to always say, "if you're bored you're boring."-=-
I restored the quotes. When a word file with "curly quotes" moves through other processes, they're lost. If anyone finds any of my old web pages that still have such garblyness, please let me know.
-=-My mom used to always say, "if you're bored you're boring."-=-
If her mom always said that, her MOM was boring. This part of the discussion was read aloud when we had company last week, and I said maybe a cartoonist should make a cartoon of a kid saying to a mom, "If I'm bored, you're boring." The question was asked, though, what the mom's response should be. I had been thinking of a single frame. But in unrelated banter the same week, we had discussed the lightbulb-over-the-head cartoon motif that means "I just had an idea." If those new curly-looking bulbs become standard, there might come to be kids who don't get the visual reference. And a drawing of one of those over someone's head would be odd. Holly said, "I just had an ecologically responsible idea!" (or maybe she said "energy-efficient idea," but she's asleep and I can't ask--maybe Robin or Julie remembers).
In any case, that mom should have had many more and better ideas.
And in most people's follow-up response cartoon imagination, the mom probably didn't get the idea to be less boring. She probably got a punitive, angry black smudge above her head. My mother would have hit me if I had said "If I'm bored, you're boring." But eventually my mom pretty much thought anything that didn't involve the drinking of alcohol was boring.
Here's something I wrote about boredom many years back:
http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore
A quote (which I think I'll take to Just Add Light and Stir):
Sometimes the real message behind "I'm bored" is "I'm little and feeling agitated and vaguely unhappy and I don't know what I can do to get over this uncomfortable feeling. What would you do if you were my age, in this house, on a day like this?"
I think that deserves a helpful, respectful response.
Sandra
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