Mary Hickcox

Hi all,  I have a friend who is just in the beginning stages of unschooling and it seems very clear that her son suffers from ODD, it is very stressing on the entire family and was a huge concern in school.  This year they pulled him and his sister out of school and are now home but the problems seem to be escalating.  He is exhibiting all the classic symptoms and apparently has his entire life.  They also do have him medicated, which helps some. 
My problem is that everything I have read so far is pointing to therapy for the child but mostly for the parents to train them how to deal with him.  That would be OK except that all of it seems to not mesh with unschooling or peaceful parenting at all.  It seems to suggest isolating the child, making them suffer for their bad behavior.  It seems to not be in his control and I feel that there must be a better way to handle it all, although saying yes more and being passive and unconditional in love does not seem to help either.  I worry for all of them!!  My question is if there is anyone out there that suffers with the same issue and if there are any solutions besides medication and military like discipline?  I was a huge factor in leading them down this path and I want to help them out as much as I can even if it is just to gain knowledge that I can share.  Thanks so much in advance:)

Mary mama to Dylan (11), Colin (7) and Theo (3)
"Be who you want your children to be."    Unknown  






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

NCMama

ODD = Oppositional Defiant Disorder. It's helpful on lists to write things out and not assume everyone reading knows what you're talking about.

Upon reading the list I found here:

http://aacap.org/page.ww?name=Children+with+Oppositional+Defiant+Disorder§ion=Facts+for+Families

it very much looks like my youngest would have been diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, as well, except for one thing: I stopped making him do stuff he didn't want to do. ta-da! Before radical unschooling, I used to "make" him clean, pick up his things, go places he didn't want to, etc. After we made the leap into radical unschooling, and I stopped requiring those things of him, he was no longer defiant. Go figure.

I went through quite a long time where I never asked him to help, etc. - I wanted to make sure he knew I was serious, about cleaning, etc., being his own choice.

He does blame others for his mistakes sometimes, still, but I am reckoning that with time and maturity, that will change. It HAS changed, as a matter of fact, he does that much less frequently than he used to.

When he was quite young, a friend described him as "very strong willed" and yep, that's very true! His first response to authority is often "no", even when what they're suggesting might be helpful. So... I don't push. I ask him, "What do you think would help?" rather than presenting solutions, for example.

When you say "I feel that there must be a better way to handle it all, although saying yes more and being passive and unconditional in love does not seem to help either" were you or the parents thinking that treating him that way would produce a sudden, magical change? If he was in school, and resisted people telling him what to do and how to do it, his whole existence the time he was in school was stressful and difficult for him. He will not heal from that overnight.

I'm also not sure what is meant by "being passive". What did you mean by that? Just trying to get clarity, here - thanks.

Caren




--- In [email protected], Mary Hickcox <disser420@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all, �I have a friend who is just in the beginning stages of unschooling and it seems very clear that her son suffers from ODD....

Schuyler

I don't know anything, really, about oppositional defiant disorder (ODD). I do
know that in our home there is very little to be defiant about. Linnaea or Simon
or David or I would have to work really hard to come up with things to rally
against. Looking at the Mayo clinic's webpage on it there are suggestions that
stress may be a contributing factor. Less stress is probably a better
prescription than more discipline. Calmer home, more peaceful environment, more
yesses, more time together, more awareness by the parents of what pre-eruption
signs there are so that they can move things from growing in stress to calmer.
All of those things and that class of care makes more of a difference in any
tension in our home. Food when he's hungry, drink when he's thirsty.

There isn't a need to label something that is a normal stress response as an
aberrant thing. I get grouchy when things are stressful, or I'm hungry or
thirsty or tired or bored or stuck inside for too long or it's too dark or
whatever. It took me years to see that it was something about my response to the
world and not about the world that was setting me on edge. Generosity and love
and kindness and attention and engagement, those things will do far more than
anything else for oppositional defiant disorder.


Schuyler


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Hi all, I have a friend who is just in the beginning stages of unschooling and it seems very clear that her son suffers from ODD, it is very stressing on the entire family and was a huge concern in school. This year they pulled him and his sister out of school and are now home but the problems seem to be escalating. He is exhibiting all the classic symptoms and apparently has his entire life. They also do have him medicated, which helps some. -=-

Is he adopted?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Hickcox

He is not adopted.  They definitely say yes more and try to let things go as much as they seem able to do at the moment and no I don't think they are looking for a quick fix, they just want to help in whatever way they can.  It is much more than just the average "I don't want to do something".  It is very extreme!!!  Sometimes the answer cannot be yes and at least 2 times a day (usually far more) he gets into a complete fit that goes on for an hour or so, swearing at people, throwing things, crying, begging, hitting, etc...it really is way over the top.  It is usually something that they just can't say yes to like wanting to go to someones house yet he isn't invited, or wanting a toy that is too expensive for them.  He seems to have anxiety over what he gets to do next, always wanting to have a friend over or something but kids are not willing to play with him anymore because he is so difficult to deal with, always arguing or pushing and he is 9.
 
This is not a normal stress response type thing it is far more then that.  Not sure what I am looking for, I guess just wondering if someone has actually dealt with this before and wondering what worked for them.  I suppose it is very difficult to understand unless you are around it.  Thanks.

Mary mama to Dylan (11), Colin (7) and Theo (3)
"Be who you want your children to be."    Unknown  






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Mary Hickcox <disser420@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,  I have a friend who is just in the beginning stages of unschooling and it seems very clear that her son suffers from ODD, it is very stressing on the entire family and was a huge concern in school.  This year they pulled him and his sister out of school and are now home but the problems seem to be escalating.  He is exhibiting all the classic symptoms and apparently has his entire life.  They also do have him medicated, which helps some. 
> My problem is that everything I have read so far is pointing to therapy for the child but mostly for the parents to train them how to deal with him.  That would be OK except that all of it seems to not mesh with unschooling or peaceful parenting at all.  It seems to suggest isolating the child, making them suffer for their bad behavior.  It seems to not be in his control and I feel that there must be a better way to handle it all, although saying yes more and being passive and unconditional in love does not seem to help either.  I worry for all of them!!  My question is if there is anyone out there that suffers with the same issue and if there are any solutions besides medication and military like discipline?  I was a huge factor in leading them down this path and I want to help them out as much as I can even if it is just to gain knowledge that I can share.  Thanks so much in advance:)
>
> Mary mama to Dylan (11), Colin (7) and Theo (3)
> "Be who you want your children to be."    Unknown  
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





You might find this article an interesting read:

Opposition Defiance Disorder – What an ODD Name
http://www.ronitbaras.com/index.php/focus-on-the-family/parenting-family/opposition-defiance-disorder-what-an-odd-name/

I made several contributions to the comment thread.

Bob

Schuyler

There were times in Linnaea's development, in Simon's development, in my
development where what you describe was part of the day. Linnaea had a
particularly hard time between about 4 and 7. It wasn't constant, it wasn't all
day, every day, but it wasn't infrequent. One winter it was so bad that I can
remember wandering through our nearest city crying. My crying didn't help.
Looking for a label wouldn't have helped. I think David actually stumbled across
operational defiant disorder as a descriptive one day and thought it might be
applicable. But what would I do with a label? It wouldn't give Linnaea cuddles
and love when she needed them. It wouldn't bring her food when she was hungry,
hold her and read to her and watch a movie with her when she was tired. It
wouldn't do anything but give me something to tell others when I needed an
excuse. She's tired worked just as effectively. Or something along those lines.


What worked was being with her, not blaming her, not telling her who or how to
be, not explaining, again, how much the world couldn't revolve around her. Just
being with her, being what she needed.


There was a day when I nearly melted down in Toys 'R Us. I could feel everything
going pear shaped and I was tired of everything and all of it was stupid and I
was going to explode. And I stopped and I thought what would help now. And food
would help now. So we went to McDonalds and we got some food and then we came
back. If someone said I was having an ODD moment it wouldn't have helped. Food
helped. Recognising that when shopping in a toystore with two children under 10
I need to have low expectations of speed or decision making helped. All of
those things took me thinking about how I felt and what worked for Linnaea when
she was unhappy to get me to move forward. All of those things took knowing what
had helped on previous occasions. The more someone knows how to feel better the
easier it is for them to find ways to feel better.


Looking to the child in the moment helps. Sitting with a child more and more and
more helps. Watching for signs of a frustration build up helps. I am very aware
of the tone of voice that either Simon or Linnaea have when they are moving
toward frustrated. I am very good at cuddling or leaning in or offering
something nice in the moment when I hear that tone of voice. Those things make a
huge difference to how peaceful our home is.


If I couldn't afford something I would talk about when I could. Write it down on
a list of things we are saving for. If Simon or Linnaea wanted to go to
someone's house I would call and see when we could arrange it. I would see if it
was going to their house that was important or if it was seeing the person. I
would plan a party or a gaming day or a gathering when people could come. The
more those things were being done, the more Simon and Linnaea knew I was
interested in making the things they wanted happen. They were much better at
waiting if they knew I was working for their goals.


A label and drugs and discipline won't help nearly as much being with the child,
helping the child, not trying to fix the child, just holding (if allowed) loving
and being generous and kind and patient. And when it feels impossible to be
patient, find a way. That sounds horribly like wait for a miracle, but honestly,
if someone can see their disappointment or frustration as something of their own
then maybe it will be easier to be kind and patient than if one looks at it as a
reflection on one's parenting.


Schuyler

---------------------



This is not a normal stress response type thing it is far more then that. Not
sure what I am looking for, I guess just wondering if someone has actually dealt
with this before and wondering what worked for them. I suppose it is very
difficult to understand unless you are around it. Thanks.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I have a friend who is just in the beginning stages of unschooling and it seems very clear that her son suffers from ODD, it is very stressing on the entire family and was a huge concern in school. -=-

The reason I asked about adoption was to suggest a genetic component.
IF he's the biological child of these two parents, ARE these two his parents? Is it a step-parent situation?
Is either parent that way too--quick to defend personal space and choices?

IF any of the above, then that should be looked at first.

I was wondering how many layers of frustration (or abandonment or shame) might need to be undone before he could start to relax.

If school frustrated him and the family tried to force him into the school mold (before deciding to give that up), that might be another layer of recovery they'll need to look at.

IF he can be given space to really relax back to calm, maybe they can start again with new policies and relationships, but it will take a while. And if either parent is also oppositional and defiant, and wants to control the child as much as he does not want to be controlled, unschooling might never work for them.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Mary Hickcox <disser420@...> wrote:
>He seems to have anxiety over what he gets to do next

Ray had a lot of anxiety in that regard and it helped to have a very regular routine *and* have things he wanted put in the same place all the time. The routine was fit around his needs, though, and mainly involved things like meals - knowing when he tended to get up and be hungry, I'd make sure to offer him food at predictable intervals even though food was always available. The regularity/predictability seemed to help him a lot.

It was also important with Ray to give him looooooots of time and notice to transition... but sort of conversely if there was something coming up that was "iffy" (and his bio mom's ability to plan tended to be especially "iffy" in those days) we wouldn't tell him at all. Anticipation was agonizing for him if there wasn't a clear "as soon as we're done with lunch X will happen" he'd be a basket case. And if something didn't happen at all he'd be a wreck for a solid day after.

>>Sometimes the answer cannot be yes and at least 2 times a day (usually far more)...
*************

That's too many "nos" - parents need to find more ways to say yes, or at least "partial yes". This child's needs need to become the priority for awhile, that's important! Its also very likely something that the whole family will resist - why "should" his needs be more important? But the reality is they are, that when they are not met then Everyone in the family suffers as a result.

One of the hardest parts of learning to be an unschooling parent is learning to be proactive, and I suspect that's where these parents are getting stuck, still. They're still reacting rather than thinking ahead, actively looking for ways to make their child's life easier. Maybe they're still resisting the idea that making his life easier is valuable or important - that's a common point of resistance for many parents because so much of the "parenting wisdom" that floats around is exactly contrary to that sentiment.

>> I suppose it is very difficult to understand unless you are around it.

Yes and no. People with very easy-going kids don't have much context for more intense kids, for sure, but at the same time its often very difficult to know which longtime unschoolers have (or had) more intense kids. Part of that is the principles of unschooling don't change from one set of needs to another, even though the practice may look very different. If these parents are being "passive" then they haven't gotten a good grasp on those principles!

But part of it, too, is that unschoolers describe children and situations very differently than the norm - and sometimes that can make it seem as though all our kids are perfectly easy-going. It might help these parents to read through the "special needs" section on Sandra's site, if they haven't yet:

http://sandradodd.com/specialunschooling

and although she's listed on this page, another bit by Danielle Conger:
http://sandradodd.com/day/danielle

as well as anything by Ren Allen:

http://sandradodd.com/renallen

---Meredith

Schuyler

Again, be more present more of the time. When Simon or Linnaea have a hard time
with someone I am much nearer to them. It doesn't matter their age, it matters
their ability to cope with the situation. Again, look to the child and not to
the expectation. If Simon had a hard time with others I worked to make it easier
for everyone involved. Offering engaging things to do, food that they like,
tension breakers movement from one activity to another when something is waning,
alternative activities instead of just one focus makes it easier for others not
to even notice that one of the party may have a hard time socially.


Meredith just wrote this: "This child's needs need to become the priority for
awhile, that's important! Its also very likely something that the whole family
will resist - why "should" his needs be more important? But the reality is they
are, that when they are not met then Everyone in the family suffers as a
result. " And that's the thing, that's the response. This child's needs need to
become the priority for a while, for as long as he is suffering he needs to be
helped. There aren't other solutions that work.


Meredith sent links, I followed along to this page:
http://sandradodd.com/giftedness. It's about labels. Sandra wrote this: "

I had a friend who WAS really tall in 4th grade--taller than the TEACHER! I
always thought of her as Really TALL, and when we were grown she was 5'2"

We had a friend who couldn't reach the water fountain in third grade, and he
grew up to be 5'4"-- you know what that says for giftedness?

It's just a mark on a curve.
If someone looks like a genius on third grade tests, it doesn't mean he'll
forever be 50% smarter than people his age for the rest of his life."

The label ODD is the same kind of thing. If this 9 year old boy were 2 people
would talk about the terrible twos, if he were a teenager people would talk
about the inevitability of difficulties with teenagers. He is who he is, ODD
won't make him better or worse. He needs his needs to be the priority for a
while. This family needs his needs to be the priority for a while.



Schuyler



---------

kids are not willing to play with him anymore because he is so difficult to deal
with, always arguing or pushing and he is 9.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Sandra Dodd

-=->> I suppose it is very difficult to understand unless you are around it.

-=-Yes and no. People with very easy-going kids don't have much context for more intense kids, for sure, but at the same time its often very difficult to know which longtime unschoolers have (or had) more intense kids.-=-

And the suggestion seems to be that those who are around it DO understand it.

In the case of a horribly botched-up marriage and near divorce, someone could say, "I suppose it is very difficult to understand unless you are around it." And that would be intended to dismiss the advice of those whose marriages are not endangered by thoughtless and irresponsible decisions made by both partners over many months or years.

What the "it" might be that someone can't understand is how bad things can get if the people in the situation aren't very careful to avoid making it terrible.

I could, if I wanted to, ruin my marriage in the next week. I could cause Keith to not want to be with me ever again.

I could, if I wanted to, destroy the faith and trust of Marty, or Holly, or both. They would move out in a rage and I would say GOOD RIDDANCE. (That would probably ruin my relationship with Keith if I hadn't already done that beforehand.)

If I did that, should I say "I suppose it is very difficult to understand unless you have been in my situation"?

Should people at risk of divorce take advice from divorced friends, or from happily married friends?
Jocelyn and Dan Vilter are celebrating 25 years of marriage today. Erika Davis-Pitre and her husband John had a big anniversary of some sort last week. They have way-grown kids.

My sister left her husband of 20 years because it seemed her kids' karate teacher was a nicer guy. She left her 14-year-old son without a mom and without a karate teacher. She was 14 when my parents divorced. She's already divorced again, and that youngest son is often in trouble with the law.

Do not take marriage advice from my sister.

So.
There are relationships between parents and children, and although a marriage might last 50 years or more, the relationship between a parent and child has quite a different arc. When Marty was little, I was strong and could pick him up and carry him. Now Marty is big and strong and helps me carry things, and gets things off high shelves for me, and reminds me of things. If I live until Marty is getting old and feeble, I will be MORE old and feeble. :-)

My point is that parents have a short time to build trust and create peace. They have a short window in which to attempt to repair damage. They have an infinite number of ways to make things worse, and a limited number of ways to make things better, within their available few years.

This is humor, but it's serious:

http://sandradodd.com/screwitup

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sadie Bugni

I don't usually comment on this board, however, I thought I may be able to
offer a perspective from our experiences. Our now 16yo son has always been
"strong willed." We began unschooling him in 1st grade, because he had gone
to a preparatory school for K, and he was 2 years ahead of the public school
kids when we moved. In 3rd grade he decided to try the PS. They were
concerned that he didn't respond well to their prompts. He didn't seem to
try his best unless I was there helping or watching his presentations. They
thought he possibly had ODD and that he was too attached to me. After about
a year (his choice) we went back to unschooling.
I remember questioning myself if his behavior was really a problem, but all
he really wanted was to treated with respect. He didn't like being ordered
around by teachers or other kids. He wasn't used to being treated that way
at home or by our friends. We tried to be around people that treated kids
with love and respect as individuals. That's NOT the atmosphere in school
to a child that recognizes injustice.
Once back home he was back to his old self after about 6 months. During the
first 6 months, we could not do any classes or anything that resembled
school to him, even though he enjoyed those things. They brought out an
oppositional, negative attitude. His relationships with his sibs were very
strained. About 2 years later I couldn't even believe that anyone could
have questioned his behavior. He was such a happy kid, loving life and
learning.
Then in 7th grade he decided to try school again. All his football friends
were in school and they convinced him that middle school was great. We
supported him. We all, including him, saw the oppositional attitude emerge
once again. He left middle school at semester, but the deschooling process
took much longer this time. I think that for kids who have such a strong
injustice recognition, any request, no, ect. can really seem like a command
or a power (control) struggle if not done very delicately. They really need
to know that you really are on their side and want to help them maintain
control in their world. At 16 he now knows that he doesn't always have
respect for authority. He feels that being older than him doesn't
automatically warrant respect. His goal is to one day own his own company
because he recognizes that he does not enjoy being told what to do.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, give it time. After a while of being
treated with respect and freedom and choices, the defiance and oppositional
feelings may go away. It takes time though. He may grow up to be a very
caring, empathetic person if he is treated that way now and can see that his
parents place value on his happiness.
Hope this makes sense.

Sadie

On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=->> I suppose it is very difficult to understand unless you are around
> it.
>
> -=-Yes and no. People with very easy-going kids don't have much context for
> more intense kids, for sure, but at the same time its often very difficult
> to know which longtime unschoolers have (or had) more intense kids.-=-
>
> And the suggestion seems to be that those who are around it DO understand
> it.
>
> In the case of a horribly botched-up marriage and near divorce, someone
> could say, "I suppose it is very difficult to understand unless you are
> around it." And that would be intended to dismiss the advice of those whose
> marriages are not endangered by thoughtless and irresponsible decisions made
> by both partners over many months or years.
>
> What the "it" might be that someone can't understand is how bad things can
> get if the people in the situation aren't very careful to avoid making it
> terrible.
>
> I could, if I wanted to, ruin my marriage in the next week. I could cause
> Keith to not want to be with me ever again.
>
> I could, if I wanted to, destroy the faith and trust of Marty, or Holly, or
> both. They would move out in a rage and I would say GOOD RIDDANCE. (That
> would probably ruin my relationship with Keith if I hadn't already done that
> beforehand.)
>
> If I did that, should I say "I suppose it is very difficult to understand
> unless you have been in my situation"?
>
> Should people at risk of divorce take advice from divorced friends, or from
> happily married friends?
> Jocelyn and Dan Vilter are celebrating 25 years of marriage today. Erika
> Davis-Pitre and her husband John had a big anniversary of some sort last
> week. They have way-grown kids.
>
> My sister left her husband of 20 years because it seemed her kids' karate
> teacher was a nicer guy. She left her 14-year-old son without a mom and
> without a karate teacher. She was 14 when my parents divorced. She's already
> divorced again, and that youngest son is often in trouble with the law.
>
> Do not take marriage advice from my sister.
>
> So.
> There are relationships between parents and children, and although a
> marriage might last 50 years or more, the relationship between a parent and
> child has quite a different arc. When Marty was little, I was strong and
> could pick him up and carry him. Now Marty is big and strong and helps me
> carry things, and gets things off high shelves for me, and reminds me of
> things. If I live until Marty is getting old and feeble, I will be MORE old
> and feeble. :-)
>
> My point is that parents have a short time to build trust and create peace.
> They have a short window in which to attempt to repair damage. They have an
> infinite number of ways to make things worse, and a limited number of ways
> to make things better, within their available few years.
>
> This is humor, but it's serious:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/screwitup
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lalow

I have one son, of my 4 kids that I would say people might consider intense. He is more sensitive in many ways than my other kids and I need to be more aware of cues and anticipate situation more with him.
We had a friend spend the night tuesday night, wednesday he didnt leave till about 2. His mother asked if I might watch him and his sister today. I knew, knowing my son, that this was alot of company time for him. He needs breaks when it comes to people, he needs his space. This has gotten better over the past few years, mainly due to our acceptance of our son for who he is and a conscious descision to view him as a unique individual and not someone that needs to be fixed. So when we have alot of company, I make sure that Ben has a space to retreat too.. he can always leave the group and play on the computer or come to my room and watch t.v or read or whatever. Today he retreated to my room and hid in his sleeping bag.. I brought him a rootbeer and pretzels and he was better not too long later. My mother makes comments quite often about how we treat my son, implying and outright saying that we are spoiling him. But I havnt always treated him this way. When he was little I thought alot about how he was different, how we could "fix" him and he was misserable, cried alot, had tantrums, lashed out. And now, he really doesnt and a child who said no all the time, no longer has a reason to. He is also so much more cooperative when I really need/want him to be.

sheeboo2

I just finished reading a very timely article that talks about the way addiction (like the Rat Park study), ADD, ODD and other serious conditions are largely a result of the way children are being raised.
http://www.alternet.org/world/149325/trauma%3A_how_we%27ve_created_a_nation_addicted_to_shopping%2C_work%2C_drugs_and_sex/?page=entire
Here is a quote:
And the essential condition for the physiological development of these brain circuits that regulate human behavior, that give us empathy, that give us a social sense, that give us a connection with other people, that give us a connection with ourselves, that allows us to mature—the essential condition for those circuits, for their physiological development, is the presence of emotionally available, consistently available, non-stressed, attuned parenting caregivers.
......
DR. GABOR MATÉ: Well, it's a great question. I just finished reading a very timely article that talks about the way addiction (like the Rat Park study), ADD, ODD and other serious conditions are largely a result of the way children are being raised.
http://www.alternet.org/world/149325/trauma%3A_how_we%27ve_created_a_nation_addicted_to_shopping%2C_work%2C_drugs_and_sex/?page=entire
Here is a quote:

......
DR. GABOR MATÉ: Well, it's a great question. You see, when we hear the phrase "acting out," we usually mean that a kid is behaving badly, that a child is being obstreperous, oppositional, violent, bullying, rude. That's because we don't know how to speak English anymore. The phrase "acting out" means you're portraying behavior that which you haven't got the words to say in language. In a game of charades, you have to act out, because you're not allowed to speak. If you landed in a country where nobody spoke your language and you were hungry, you would have to literally demonstrate your anger—sorry, your hunger, through behavior, pointing to your mouth or to your empty belly, because you don't have the words.

My point is that, yes, a lot of children are acting out, but it's not bad behavior. It's a representation of emotional losses and emotional lacks in their lives. And whether it's, again, bullying or a whole set of other behaviors, what we're dealing with here is childhood stunted emotional development—in some cases, stunted pain development. And rather than trying to control these behaviors through punishments, or even just exclusively through medications, we need to help these kids develop.

Brie

Sandra Dodd

That's awesome, Brie! Love this: "...emotionally available, consistently available, non-stressed, attuned parenting caregivers."
Huh!
Unschooling parents. :-)


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>If Simon or Linnaea wanted to go to someone's house I would call and see
when we could arrange it. I would see if it was going to their house that
was important or if it was seeing the person. I would plan a party or a
gaming day or a gathering when people could come.<<<

I like this a whole lot and I would also add that starting over with
different people, different kids is another possibility. Move on to other
horizons so that the child can have a new start and the parent can too. So
that the temporary problem with children who won't play with this child is
what it is.. temporary. The idea that a child has annoyed people enough that
others don't invite the family/child to events seems a bit ... I don't know.
Maybe not true.

Not thinking in terms of permanent damage while ALSO dealing with the
child's frustration(s) will feel less frustrating and more doable.
Sometimes, for any number of reasons, friendships may form, not work out and
fall apart. Don't make the relationship that does that be the parent/child
one. Let that relationship be ok and welcoming, whatever frustrations may
come to alter a child's behavior. Child/child friendships will come and go
to some degree. If the parent/child relationship is solid, then the
temporary cessation of play friendships can be waded through much more
easily with less damage to the child.

The biggest problem I see with labels like ODD is that the potential to
damage the parent/child relationship and the child's view of him/herself is
too great. Labels are risky business. Especially one that shouts ODD.

How old is this child again? Nine is still so young! I have a tender 7 1/2
year old child.

No matter how old one is, if one's frustration isn't easily articulated or
not at all articulated, then finding out how to help in just the right way
is vital and make take time. Keep making determined efforts to avoid writing
off frustration as "nothing." Stay open and aware. Don't close off and think
that making rules is or will become the answer. It may not be possible to
directly help all situations that are frustrating a child but one may be
able to ease them so that they are a bit more bearable. I wish my parents
had been able to do that for me about my hearing loss, wearing hearing aids,
having trouble in school and communicating with others, with making friends
and so on. For a long time those were frustrations I couldn't explain, that
I needed more help with which my parents didn't understand at all, being of
normal hearing themselves. For me it was simply reality, the way things
were. I didn't have the same experience of normal that others did so
explaining *my* normal was hardly something I could figure out until I was
no longer a child anymore and could help myself or find help.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-The idea that a child has annoyed people enough that
others don't invite the family/child to events seems a bit ... I don't know.
Maybe not true.-=-

There are kids who have divided or destroyed homeschooling groups with bad behavior the parents can't address.

There have been kids I didn't want to have over for a while. I'd give them a year and maybe try again.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

siep_1

Hello Mary,

You're a good friend for trying to find some ideas for this family. You see it happen and realize this is not within "normal" limits (whatever that means).
We lived through it as a family. It is as close to hell as I've ever felt (if I believed there is a hell, that is).
No one understood. We were the cause of the problem. It was because of how we parented, etc. That of course only makes it worse. And it is not true.
What saved our family was the nurtured heart approach, as described in the book "Transforming the Difficult Child" by Howard Glasser. You can find more info here: http://difficultchild.com/
I may not agree with the title 'difficult child', but it definitely is a difficult situation. Dangerous for us and for our son's younger sister too. And so, so horrible for our son....
We started meticulously applying what is suggested in the book and within a week the symptoms started decreasing. It was that fast.
Howard Glasser is training people to help others. Your friends can contact him (his contact info is in the book) and ask where there might be a group or a person in their area who can help. There wasn't one in our area, but we managed by doing exactly what the book said. It is very in line with unschooling, so that is a good thing, so that it does not feel counter to what they are already trying to do. Our son is a very well-liked and happy person, so there is hope!
If they would like to talk with me more, feel free to give them my email address cUUrious@....

Good luck to them and kuddos to you as a friend!
Sybelle

--- In [email protected], Mary Hickcox <disser420@...> wrote:
>
> He is not adopted. �They definitely say yes more and try to let things go as much as they seem able to do at the moment and no I don't think they are looking for a quick fix, they just want to help in whatever way they can. �It is much more than just the average "I don't want to do something". �It is very extreme!!! �Sometimes the answer cannot be yes and at least 2 times a day (usually far more) he gets into a complete fit that goes on for an hour or so, swearing at people, throwing things, crying, begging, hitting, etc...it really is way over the top. �It is usually something that they just can't say yes to like wanting to go to someones house yet he isn't invited, or wanting a toy that is too expensive for them. �He seems to have anxiety over what he gets to do next, always wanting to have a friend over or something but kids are not willing to play with him anymore because he is so difficult to deal with, always arguing or pushing and he is 9.
> �
> This is not a normal stress response type thing it is far more then that. �Not sure what I am looking for, I guess just wondering if someone has actually dealt with this before and wondering what worked for them. �I suppose it is very difficult to understand unless you are around it. �Thanks.
>
> Mary mama to Dylan (11), Colin (7) and�Theo (3)
> "Be who you want your children to be."��� Unknown �
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

sheeboo2

------- What saved our family was the nurtured heart approach, as described in the book "Transforming the Difficult Child" by Howard Glasser. You can find more info here: http://difficultchild.com/
<snip> It is very in line with unschooling, so that is a good thing, so that it does not feel counter to what they are already trying to do.------

For me, it is hard to see how giving a child points for "good behavior" (who decides?) which they can then use to buy things like TV and computer time is "in line with unschooling."

It is wonderful that you and your family found something that works for you, but I would definitely hesitate to offer the endorsement that it follows the principles of unschooling.

Yes, Glasser *seems* to give control to the child--it is his/her choice to act according to the rules parents/teachers have set up, and they aren't "punished" when they fail to act accordingly, which *is* a huge plus in terms of behavior modification practices. But the whole system of authority figures deciding which areas are rewarded and which aren't, and then implementing an economic system where privileges are purchased from the points one rackes up, doesn't equal a partnership relationship, it is still one where the powerful (parents) have ALL the control over children.

Brie

lalow

I have found the books by Heather Forbes, Beyond Consequences,Logic and Control and Dare to Love to be helpful. Her premise is that all these behaviors are born out of fear and need to be responded to with love and acceptance.

--- In [email protected], "siep_1" <cUUrious@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Mary,
>
> You're a good friend for trying to find some ideas for this family. You see it happen and realize this is not within "normal" limits (whatever that means).
> We lived through it as a family. It is as close to hell as I've ever felt (if I believed there is a hell, that is).
> No one understood. We were the cause of the problem. It was because of how we parented, etc. That of course only makes it worse. And it is not true.
> What saved our family was the nurtured heart approach, as described in the book "Transforming the Difficult Child" by Howard Glasser. You can find more info here: http://difficultchild.com/
> I may not agree with the title 'difficult child', but it definitely is a difficult situation. Dangerous for us and for our son's younger sister too. And so, so horrible for our son....
> We started meticulously applying what is suggested in the book and within a week the symptoms started decreasing. It was that fast.
> Howard Glasser is training people to help others. Your friends can contact him (his contact info is in the book) and ask where there might be a group or a person in their area who can help. There wasn't one in our area, but we managed by doing exactly what the book said. It is very in line with unschooling, so that is a good thing, so that it does not feel counter to what they are already trying to do. Our son is a very well-liked and happy person, so there is hope!
> If they would like to talk with me more, feel free to give them my email address cUUrious@...
>
> Good luck to them and kuddos to you as a friend!
> Sybelle
>
> --- In [email protected], Mary Hickcox <disser420@> wrote:
> >
> > He is not adopted. �They definitely say yes more and try to let things go as much as they seem able to do at the moment and no I don't think they are looking for a quick fix, they just want to help in whatever way they can. �It is much more than just the average "I don't want to do something". �It is very extreme!!! �Sometimes the answer cannot be yes and at least 2 times a day (usually far more) he gets into a complete fit that goes on for an hour or so, swearing at people, throwing things, crying, begging, hitting, etc...it really is way over the top. �It is usually something that they just can't say yes to like wanting to go to someones house yet he isn't invited, or wanting a toy that is too expensive for them. �He seems to have anxiety over what he gets to do next, always wanting to have a friend over or something but kids are not willing to play with him anymore because he is so difficult to deal with, always arguing or pushing and he is 9.
> > �
> > This is not a normal stress response type thing it is far more then that. �Not sure what I am looking for, I guess just wondering if someone has actually dealt with this before and wondering what worked for them. �I suppose it is very difficult to understand unless you are around it. �Thanks.
> >
> > Mary mama to Dylan (11), Colin (7) and�Theo (3)
> > "Be who you want your children to be."��� Unknown �
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Yes, Glasser *seems* to give control to the child--it is his/her choice to act according to the rules parents/teachers have set up, and they aren't "punished" when they fail to act accordingly, which *is* a huge plus in terms of behavior modification practices. But the whole system of authority figures deciding which areas are rewarded and which aren't,-=-

It's also in an eerie, creepy way kind of like what seriously physical wifebeaters say when they justify why they've thrown their violent fit. Dinner wasn't ready. She talked back.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

k <katherand@...> wrote:
>The idea that a child has annoyed people enough that
> others don't invite the family/child to events seems a bit ... I don't know.
> Maybe not true.

This family is new to unschooling, though, so it wouldn't be surprising if get togethers with friends involved very little parental support - that's the norm, after all. I know when Ray was having trouble, before we were unschooling or even moving toward unschooling, people often didn't tell his biological parents when there were issues until things got to "he can't play here any more". As the step-parent, I got to hear the details sooner and find out what was going on and essentially Ray was acting as a bully most of the time. Once we started being supportive of him the bullying went away - he wasn't "trying to be mean" - at least not at first - but trying to communicate and get his needs met and doing that badly. I say "at least not at first" because once he started having a reputation as "the mean kid" he took that on as a personal trait - as "the mean kid" there was no need to even Try to be anything else. Yikes.

Anyway, one thing that might also help this family is looking for older kids and adults for their son to play with - people old enough that they can be supportive of the child, can follow his lead without rancour. That was a big, big help to Ray and he's still friends with some of those adults to this day.

---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)

plaidpanties666

"siep_1" <cUUrious@...> wrote:
>> No one understood. We were the cause of the problem. It was because of how we parented, etc. That of course only makes it worse. And it is not true.
***********

Actually, the rest of your post goes on to state that it was, indeed true. I think you've mistaken "because of how we parented" for "we were Bad People". Your parenting - you wrote - didn't work for your child, so you changed that. That's fantastic! So many people get stuck thinking "its not My Fault" and don't change the way they parent, even when its hurting their beloved children.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=-I know when Ray was having trouble, before we were unschooling or even moving toward unschooling, people often didn't tell his biological parents when there were issues until things got to "he can't play here any more". -=-

I suppose it's common to let kids sink or swim, socially.

Even among unschoolers, though, sometimes people don't talk to the parent because the parent is also problematical, or clueless, or mean.


In many cases, I just speak directly with the child and don't deal with the parents. If they could have fixed the problem, they would have. Sometimes honest communication from an outsider can make a difference, especially when the child and parent have an adversarial relationship and the child has his own power tied up in thwarting his parents' controls.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Renee Boisvert

I come from a different perspective than many of the responses here... and I
agree with the many responses encouraging the philosophy of building the
parent child relationship and saying "yes" when possible. I have 2 children
with neuro-psych issues and I work in the field of child and youth mental
health.

I am not convinced of the validity of the diagnosis of ODD. On the other
hand, I recognize (and experience) the reality of oppositional behaviors in
children.

It was incredibly liberating for me to hear someone say (a few years
ago) that "oppositional" usually means "anxious." It allowed me to see my
daughters through a lens of empathy. My daughters are both adopted and have
birth parent history of significant mental health issues.. They both have
mood disorder involving both high and low moods. One of them has an ODD
diagnosis... and I have never agreed with the diagnosis. The oppositional
symptoms only occur during her unstable mood states. When she started taking
a mood stabilizer, she stopped physically striking out at us, and the verbal
aggression decreased immensely. Her mood cycles last abbout 7 to 16 days,
and for about one third of the time, she was incredibly out of control of
herself, and felt very badly about herself. The medication has changed her
life! Sometimes medication is necessary!

All of the children I know of with an ODD (oppositional defiant disorder)
diagnosis, have other neurological or neuro-psychiatric conditions. Some may
not be diagnosed yet... but there is something else going on. This may be
anxiety, autism spectrum, attachment issues, or a mood disorder, for
example.

Back to the anxiety... We have discovered that if we assume that
oppositional responses mean anxiety, it leaves us (the parents) responsible
to do the detective work on behalf of our child who is not really able to
think clearly for herself in the momemt. Sometimes there are clear triggers
we can observe : a change in plans leads to oppositional behaviors. Other
times we don't see clear reasons, and sometimes we can find patterns that
lead us to clues as to what is provoking the anxiety: the last 4 episodes
occurred while getting into the car after leaving a store or an activity.

Nagging our sullen oppositional anxious child to do something, makes things
worse. When I am in a hurry to get somewhere, I give lots of time
checkpoints (15 minutes till we leave, 5 minutes... etc) and still at the
last minute, things may "blow out" At that point... I calmly state that I am
going down to put on my shoes. I don't ask anything of the overwhelmed
child. She will steam and stew a few moments... and then come downstairs to
get ready.

It is not easy to parent an intense child... and sometimes the intensity
comes packed with some major issues that do need to be unpacked!

Renee




On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 5:55 AM, Mary Hickcox <disser420@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi all, I have a friend who is just in the beginning stages of unschooling
> and it seems very clear that her son suffers from ODD, it is very stressing
> on the entire family and was a huge concern in school. This year they
> pulled him and his sister out of school and are now home but the problems
> seem to be escalating. He is exhibiting all the classic symptoms and
> apparently has his entire life. They also do have him medicated, which
> helps some.
> My problem is that everything I have read so far is pointing to therapy for
> the child but mostly for the parents to train them how to deal with him.
> That would be OK except that all of it seems to not mesh with unschooling
> or peaceful parenting at all. It seems to suggest isolating the child,
> making them suffer for their bad behavior. It seems to not be in his
> control and I feel that there must be a better way to handle it all,
> although saying yes more and being passive and unconditional in love does
> not seem to help either. I worry for all of them!! My question is if there
> is anyone out there that suffers with the same issue and if there are any
> solutions besides medication and military like discipline? I was a huge
> factor in leading them down this path and I want to help them out as much as
> I can even if it is just to gain knowledge that I can share. Thanks so much
> in advance:)
>
> Mary mama to Dylan (11), Colin (7) and Theo (3)
> "Be who you want your children to be." Unknown
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am not convinced of the validity of the diagnosis of ODD. On the other
hand, I recognize (and experience) the reality of oppositional behaviors in
children.-=-

How can a child live and act "in opposition" to a partner, though?

Adversarial relationships create adversaries. They're made of adversaries.

-=-My daughters are both adopted and have
birth parent history of significant mental health issues.. -=-

If their parents had been even-keeled saints, the children would still have problems because of adoption. Even the best adoptive parents and the best genetics are faced with biological realities our culture doesn't recognize, discuss or consider.

Holly smells like I do. Marty has Keith's temperament, sensibilities, and mathematical whizzitude. Understanding one of them goes a long way toward undersatnding the other one.

Even a biological parent in an intact family can be a mismatch for his or her own child, and that partnership can be strained and confusing.

http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
That page isn't long.
Rebellion, defiance, opposition, stubborness, obstinance.... those are all the same thing. They are a natural reaction to powerlessness and criticism. They are attempts by someone to escape from a trap of belittlement.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Renee Boisvert <learnavecjoie@...> wrote:
>> Back to the anxiety... We have discovered that if we assume that
> oppositional responses mean anxiety...

Another way of saying that is to see behavior as a form of communication. Its not always the most *straightforward* form of communication! A child who is hitting is not *necessarily* needing to hit something - and coming to understand those kinds of non-verbal cues can take some time and experimentation on the part of parents.

This thread is cross-posted and I want to quote something I wrote on another list as it pertains to this:
> I am not convinced of the validity of the diagnosis of ODD. On the other
> hand, I recognize (and experience) the reality of oppositional behaviors in
> children.

The trouble with diagnoses is they can muddy the waters around those specific
needs. "ODD" doesn't actually say much of anything. Is he attacking people
physically and smashing the furniture? You didn't say, but I'll go with that
since its what I'm familiar with. Ray did that sort of thing when he was younger
and "passive" parenting was disastrous! It amped up his uncertainty and sense of
being out of control. But the opposite of passive isn't controlling or
disciplining, its working with the child so that the child feels more in control
of his life and world.

Another issue to consider is that the child in question has been in school - so
he's gone from a very regimented environment to something else and may be
reacting to the feeling that what little control he did have over his life is
now gone. So he's doing what people do in chaotic situations, he's trying to
Create a sense of control by lashing out - just as though he were in an abusive
environment or a war zone. That's not to say his home life is abusive (although
"ODD" can be a symptom of abuse, especially in boys) but that it may feel That
scary and out of control to him.

What to do to help him feel more in control is going to depend on his Specific
needs, though. What helps him feel good and solid and stable?

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=-This thread is cross-posted and I want to quote something I wrote on another list as it pertains to this:-=-

If any messages are "cross posted" (posted to two or more lists), I'd appreciate it if any moderator who knows that would delete the post from the queue.

I think the more experienced list members know that I don't like form letters to this list.

Note to others:
If this list isn't the place you really want to bring your question, it's fine to ask it elsewhere.

There are several unschooling discussions with hundreds of members. Many people are on two or more of those.

Thanks,
Sandra-as-listowner

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dola dasgupta-banerji

Well this might be a bit off subject on this thread. But somewhere I felt a
bit connected regarding my son Ishaan who is almost five now. He is a pretty
imaginative child and has never been to school. He has always got along
better with older boys than with boys his age. So when we have kids his age
or perhaps girls his age come over or meet at other people's places, he
finds it difficult to find a game to his liking.

Most of his games are creations of his favourite movies like those Night in
the Musuem, Madagascar or simply playing the engine driver of his
innumerable trains. Now most kids his age are not willing to play those kind
of games. One reason I figured out for that was that many of the moms
restrict their kids to a single room. Whereas my kids have the whole house
to play in. The other kids are at loss of "what to do all the time in one
crammy room?" . when their friends come over to our place I generally close
myself into my study and let them use the rest of the house except my
bedroom. I do not mind cleaning up later.

The boys who come over sometime are happy playing the usual hide and seek or
some board game. Now my kids play other games of their own invention. so
when Ishaan cannot communicate this to those kids he generally throws a
tantrum. I try and mitigate by saying to the other kids "this is what he
means" My daughter who is 9 also helps in such situations.

But I also explain to Ishaan sometimes you have to play their kind of games
too or else no one might want to come over to our place. Otherwise I just
put on his favourite show on TV or DVD and let him not play at all. My
daughter is the follower by nature, so she continues to play with them.

But I too feel it does get a bit out of hand at times when Ishaan just
screams or throws things around when no one wants to play his game. Any
suggestions how to handle it better and more effectively...

Please keep in mind that all their friends go to school and have pretty
strict rules to follow at home....

Dola

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 4:56 AM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...>wrote:

>
>
> k <katherand@...> wrote:
> >The idea that a child has annoyed people enough that
> > others don't invite the family/child to events seems a bit ... I don't
> know.
> > Maybe not true.
>
> This family is new to unschooling, though, so it wouldn't be surprising if
> get togethers with friends involved very little parental support - that's
> the norm, after all. I know when Ray was having trouble, before we were
> unschooling or even moving toward unschooling, people often didn't tell his
> biological parents when there were issues until things got to "he can't play
> here any more". As the step-parent, I got to hear the details sooner and
> find out what was going on and essentially Ray was acting as a bully most of
> the time. Once we started being supportive of him the bullying went away -
> he wasn't "trying to be mean" - at least not at first - but trying to
> communicate and get his needs met and doing that badly. I say "at least not
> at first" because once he started having a reputation as "the mean kid" he
> took that on as a personal trait - as "the mean kid" there was no need to
> even Try to be anything else. Yikes.
>
> Anyway, one thing that might also help this family is looking for older
> kids and adults for their son to play with - people old enough that they can
> be supportive of the child, can follow his lead without rancour. That was a
> big, big help to Ray and he's still friends with some of those adults to
> this day.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]