livwithroz

She hasn't asked for flour or ketchup lately. Since we just bought maple syrup she's been asking for that and has received it. She has branched out, though! She has eaten my chicken soup and mac & cheese. And when we went to DD's yesterday she chose flatbread grilled cheese while her sister chose a donut. I am sure that she will be fine and that radical unschooling will work for us and we'll all be comfortable in time.
I do think a *there there it will all work out* wouldn't have hurt me! Sometimes my friends need a hug before they need suggestions.
I do appreciate all the suggestions and the encouragement I did get from some. Thank you!

Sandra Dodd

-=-I do think a *there there it will all work out* wouldn't have hurt me! Sometimes my friends need a hug before they need suggestions.
I do appreciate all the suggestions and the encouragement I did get from some. Thank you!-=-

This sounds like an insult to those who didn't seem "encouraging" to you. Of the thousands of people on the list, most didn't respond at all. But that shouldn't have been a source of hurt either.

This list is nine years old and the feedback has been way more good than bad.
http://sandradodd.com/feedback
(There's negative feedback there too, but if that makes you feel better that in itself is worth considering.)

The purpose of the list has never been anything like friends giving hugs or giving people what won't hurt them. It's a better use of the list and of your own thoughts and energy to take it for what it is and try to appreciate that, rather than expressing the "my feelings are hurt" energy of wishing it were different. If you can practice doing that with a discussion list, it will be easier to do with your children and friends. :-)

Sandra

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Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 4, 2010, at 5:16 AM, livwithroz wrote:

> I do think a *there there it will all work out* wouldn't have hurt me!

There's no way a bunch of strangers who only have only words to
understand a situation by could know that. The words may sometimes
make someone feel better but they have no meaning.

One of the big huge purposes of this list is to help people understand
unschooling so they can decide for themselves whether it's working or
not.

But whether the words would have helped or hurt you, there's also no
way of knowing whether they would help or hurt someone else reading
along. Someone with only a surface understanding of unschooling, who
has replaced dictating meals with entirely leaving choices of what and
when and how much up to her child could harm her child by neglect.

It usually takes a long time before people new to unschooling stop
looking for new rules to replace old ones. The more people are
discouraged from skimming a surface understanding of unschooling,
discouraged from relying on meaningless reassurances that going
through the motions of unschooling with crossed fingers and assurances
everything will be fine, the better for their kids.

Unschooling is a paradigm shift for most everyone. That shift doesn't
happen by acting like other unschoolers. It comes slowly, bit by bit,
as understanding of what unschooling is grows.

Joyce

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Sandra Dodd

-=-Unschooling is a paradigm shift for most everyone. That shift doesn't
happen by acting like other unschoolers. It comes slowly, bit by bit,
as understanding of what unschooling is grows.-=-

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

Those sites exist so that people can explore unschooling, but reading those pages doesn't make anyone an unschooler. Only changing one's own thoughts and beliefs and actions and reactions, and building a relationship with one's children based on those understandings can make unschooling work in a family.

There is a "there there" tradition among women. I've referred to it as "teaparty" talk in the past, and then made this site to illustrate what I was talking about. It *sounds* like support, but it's really more like "let's all avoid real thought together!" Unschooling takes real thought, and a desire to change. Any desire to be supported in staying the same will be a problem.

http://sandradodd.com/support

Sandra

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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

"Unschooling is a paradigm shift for most everyone. That shift doesn't
happen by acting like other unschoolers. It comes slowly, bit by bit,
as understanding of what unschooling is grows."

I really like this and agree in every way. I have met several people that did
call themselves radical unschoolers and that tried to act like unschooling
parents but had not deep understanding of how and why and what unschooling
really was. the results were always a mess.


I has taken me years to get to where I am now and I still learn everyday.
Everyday I understand a little bit more. Sometimes a new topic comes up and I am
so happy it did because I really want to read what some of my favorite voices
have to say as my kids are still young and I have lots to learn and grow.

Alex Polikowsky


 
Alex Polikowsky

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maurakardash

Brian, thank you so much for this! Knowing Ginger for years and helping her become a "gentle parent" and then helping her see unschooling as a great way to live (and now us embarking on radical unschooling together) I know that this is the version of "there, there" she is seeking from more experienced radical unschoolers. (And I know there is NO way strangers on a list could know that.) She is always reminding me that it will probably take at least a year for the deschooling to happen. But sometimes we get scared when we are unsure about a situation. This list is great because it really makes you look at what you're doing and how you can do it better. And when you are scared you can see that someone else has been where you are and by applying new skills you can get there. It is so encouraging to be in the company of people who didn't give up. Thanks to all!


--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> "Unschooling is a paradigm shift for most everyone. That shift doesn't
> happen by acting like other unschoolers. It comes slowly, bit by bit,
> as understanding of what unschooling is grows."
>
> I really like this and agree in every way. I have met several people that did
> call themselves radical unschoolers and that tried to act like unschooling
> parents but had not deep understanding of how and why and what unschooling
> really was. the results were always a mess.
>
>
> I has taken me years to get to where I am now and I still learn everyday.
> Everyday I understand a little bit more. Sometimes a new topic comes up and I am
> so happy it did because I really want to read what some of my favorite voices
> have to say as my kids are still young and I have lots to learn and grow.
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
>
>  
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

I had an e-mail from someone I know and trust, but rather than have this post go through with the author's name, I'm going to send it this way, anonymously. From here down, except for "[and it was signed, but I've removed the name], nothing is my own writing.

Perhaps it's a little harsh, but if we all roll (as I did) and say "Oh, right; sorry," then the original story isn't examined in an unschooling light. I don't intend this necessarily to help the original poster, but probably to help several dozen silent readers of the list who have or might someday have similar questions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sandra, I wanted to run this response by you. I wrote it last night, but wondered if it sounds too harsh. Can you let me know if I should post it as is?

Sorry to make more work for you!

And I think I want to say something about "update on the flour eater." The fact that she calls her child "the flour eater" is so disrespectful and I'll bet she doesn't even realize it.

[and it was signed, but I've removed the name]

>
> For 2 years I've had Liv and her sister come over my house for a day every other week to play with my two boys who are the same ages (4 and 6). (I watch them for one day one week and Ginger watches my kids one day the next week, etc.) Liv will 9 times out of 10 not eat any food while at my house. Exceptions have been a piece of bread with nothing on it, cheese, mac and cheese, and an unripe tomato she picked from our garden. At first I thought it was me and she didn't trust me or something. I was feeling badly that she wouldn't eat at my house, but after talking to Ginger about it I realized Olivia has a hard time eating almost all foods.
> In the two years we've been watching each other's kids it has never changed. Liv won't eat to fullness while at my house even if she says she's starving. Sometimes she will eat a little cheese or a little of something else, but she has never eaten enough to fill her belly to the point where she will stop saying she's hungry while she is at my house.

Do you think the following might have something to do with why she won't eat?

"I've recently let go of control of my kids meals. For years I followed the
advice, "If they don't eat what you give them make them wait for the next meal.
They won't starve themselves". Well, that achieved no success. They ate what
they wanted of what I gave them and went many meals without food." (Emphasis mine).

So for 6 years, the child has coped with that control by not eating. Just because her mom has "recently let go of control" doesn't mean the child takes her at her word, trusts that she won't be forced to eat as her mother wants her to, or is able to shift out of that mindset she's been in. She is actually proving her mother wrong by starving herself. And for the last two years you've seen her, she's kept control of her body consistently.

I think I might be tempted to eat the most unusual things to test my mother's resolve (Is she really telling the truth? Can I trust her? Will she withhold food from me again? Does she believe I won't starve myself?).

The only way I see this easing up is if the mom sticks to giving her choices, allowing her to say no with no judgment, giving her what she's asking for, and not moving back to controlling how either of the kids eats.

> I offer everything we have and ask if there is anything I can buy for next time, but she doesn't know what she wants. I can vouched that this is not from lack of exposure to all kinds of food (including donuts from Dunkin Donuts and cotton candy and other "processed" foods). You name it, she's either tried it or it's been offered to her.

How would she know what she wants, if her food has been controlled and she's been told what she can eat?
>
> My children always want whatever Ginger has packed Liv for lunch and I usually end up giving it to them because she doesn't eat it. Last week part of her lunch was a piece of cheesecake, one of my personal favorites, so when she wouldn't eat it we all shared it. Also, when I ask my sons what they want me to pack for them to eat when they go to Ginger's they say, "Nothing. We want whatever Ginger has."

Then it's not what's available that's the issue. I think It's the control and the lack of trust.
>
> Sorry this is so long. I'm trying to keep it short... it's hard to not give details because I thought maybe it would help if there was more clarification from an outside source (including the perspectives from my 4 and 6 year olds) to assure everyone that there is no shortage of variety of tasty choices, and that Liv has not been left to her own devices. I've seen Ginger work with Liv to figure out what to eat and now that she is radically unschooling she is giving her things like a bowl of flour or a cup of ketchup when Liv asks for it. (Again, I hope none of this sounds defensive.)

Maybe the "working with her" is still too many words and too much "management" for Liv. Offering food without words, that she can take or leave might be a way to help. Offering without asking because maybe it's too much pressure. Leaving food out for her, like a monkey platter. Offering any of the things she once like to eat, with no "vibes" and accepting her eating or not. It's the control or the hint of control that's still getting in the way. Isn't mom still controlling the flour and the ketchup and now, the maple syrup?

It can be really hard to see that what you thought was the "right way" to parent and the "right way" to feed your children is nothing like what radical unschoolers talk about and do in their day-to-day lives. It can't be "I'm throwing out all the controls" without the deep thinking and understanding about where you went wrong and the resolve to do better in each moment. Applying radical unschooling principles isn't a pill to cure all ills. Removing food controls doesn't magically restore trust between parent and child. It takes time.

"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."

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k

>>>> I do think a *there there it will all work out* wouldn't have hurt me!<<<

I'm so glad that Always Learning is a place where "there, there" and
pats on the shoulder or (God forbid!) on the head are much less
likely. "There there" can be a big disappointment to my way of
thinking when what I want are information and ideas. This list has
more of that. And less of "there there."

~Katherine