Lisa

My son is 7.

So, today at the bank, I was just doing an atm withdrawal and I didn't need to go inside. My son said he wanted a lollipop. I said that I didn't have anything to go inside for and I offered him the lollipop I had in my bag.

He didn't like the flavor and was a little nasty about it. Like I was offering him something yucky.

I offered to take him home and get a lollipop. He said he didn't want to go home. I thought in my head "how can I get him a lollipop?" and while I was thinking this, he starts whining and crying.

I'll be honest with you. I don't like the whining, I don't like the
crying, and I get a bit irritated when he doesn't trust me to help get him what he wants. His knee-jerk reaction is to cry and maybe whine.

I responded in an angry way that I'd rather not repeat, but I'm at a loss as for what to replace it with and I would really appreciate your views.

thank you. Lisa

lylaw

I am confused by why you'd have found it easier to go home than to go inside the bank to get him a lollypop? also, if he whines and cries and doesn't trust that you will help him, you might examine *that* - take it as communication of something...maybe next time, instead of *thinking* "how can I get him a lollypop" - SAY it out loud then he will know for certain you want to help.
what did you feel angry about specifically? it can help to deconstruct your thought patterns and identify what was pushing your buttons. what were you telling yourself about his whining or about his wanting a lollypop?

lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 10/1/2010 12:17 AM, Lisa wrote:
> So, today at the bank, I was just doing an atm withdrawal and I didn't
> need to go inside. My son said he wanted a lollipop. I said that I
> didn't have anything to go inside for and I offered him the lollipop I
> had in my bag.

Maybe I am missing something? Why couldn't you go inside and get him a
lollipop? (I'm assuming they give them away in there and he knew it, right?)

-pam

Angela Shaw

You could go in the bank and have him ask a teller nicely if he could have a
lollipop. I know you have no business inside the bank but I don't think
they would mind. They would probably think it's cute. I learned over time
to go outside my comfort zone to make my kids happy if it didn't hurt anyone
else. You are a member of that bank and they do give them out for free.
You could say something light, like, My son wants to know if he still gets a
free lollipop when we use the atm? And smile. I'm sure they'd give it to
you.



But honestly, I don't like whining either. When my kids were little, I'd
ask them to rephrase it without whining if I knew that I'd be feeling
resentment at doing something. I was up front with them and just stated it
like a fact.when you ask me in that voice, it doesn't make me want to get it
for you. I'd be happy to get it for you if you ask me in a nice voice.
When I was matter of fact about it, it didn't escalate things and it didn't
take long at all before they knew that if they asked nicely, I'd do my best
to find a way to get them what they wanted.



But it was that trust that really made the difference. Once they KNEW that
I always tried to find a way to meet their needs, they became less needy and
less whiney.



Angela



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 1, 2010, at 3:17 AM, Lisa wrote:

> So, today at the bank, I was just doing an atm withdrawal and I
> didn't need to go inside. My son said he wanted a lollipop. I said
> that I didn't have anything to go inside for and I offered him the
> lollipop I had in my bag.

They'll give you a lollipop even if you aren't using their lines.
Even, I'd bet, if you aren't a customer of theirs. (Can you imagine a
bank with a policy that might turn away potential customers over the
price of a lollipop?)

I'm suspecting he didn't so much need a lollipop as the bank brought
it to mind. Haven't you ever wanted something special as part of an
event or part of a routine?

> I'm at a loss as for what to replace it with and I would really
> appreciate your views.


Try seeing him as helpless. (Which he is.) Nearly everything he wants
and needs he has to go through you. He's wants and needs are at the
mercy of your decision. You might decide it's too much trouble. You
might decide he doesn't need it. You might decide it's inconvenient
right now and he has to wait. You might decide it's too expensive.

Picture living your life like that. Everything you want and need, is
at the mercy of your husband's decision. And sometimes his decisions
and explanations don't make much sense to you. (I'm sure your son
couldn't imagine a reason you couldn't walk into the bank and ask for
a lollipop like you've done before.)

The more generous you are with your time and effort now, the more
generous your son will be when you're old and confined to bed at the
mercy of other's compassionate willingness to make their life more
difficult to make your life a little easier! ;-)

> I'll be honest with you. I don't like the whining, I don't like the
> crying, and I get a bit irritated when he doesn't trust me to help
> get him what he wants.

See kids reactions as communication. *You* think you're trustworthy to
meet his needs but he doesn't and he's going to respond to *his*
perception of the world not to your intentions. The whining is his way
of trying to meet his need since you can't (yet) be trusted.

It's not a good way! It's undoubtedly often counterproductive for him!
But instead of seeing him as deliberately using a tool you dont' like,
see him as needing help. Trust that he's doing the best he can with
the tools and understanding of the world he has and he needs help
getting his needs met.

Rather than trying to pry that tool out of his hands and forcibly
replace it with someone else, you use a better tool. (Though first,
see what you can do to anticipate his needs and respond in a way that
earns his trust so he doesn't need to resort to the tool.)

Some kids do whine. And if you are working hard at meeting his needs,
*then* you can say "I can't understand you. If you speak calmly I can
help you better." (Make it about you meeting his needs rather than
about him meeting your needs to not hear whining.)

And often when kids are at their worst, what they need most is a
hug. :-)

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I thought in my head "how can I get him a lollipop?" and while I
was thinking this, he starts whining and crying.-=-

You could have taken him into the bank, if they have lollipops, and
asked for one.

-=-So, today at the bank, I was just doing an atm withdrawal and I
didn't need to go inside. My son said he wanted a lollipop. I said
that I didn't have anything to go inside for and I offered him the
lollipop I had in my bag. -=-

You could have gone inside for a lollipop.
If there was a drive-through, maybe you could have used that instead
of the ATM, and asked for a lollipop there.

If you were outside a place that sold cold drinks and you wanted one,
and your husband or friend (that would be soon-to-be-EX-friend, I
think) offered you a bottle of warm water that was already in the car,
or an old half a bottle of juice or soda from their backpack, I don't
think you would feel loved. You might even whine and cry. But you
would be old enough to get out of the car and go in and get your own
cold drink. Your son is not, yet.

You asked for help with your reaction, but I think backing up more to
your action (which would have prevented your child's reaction AND your
reaction) is more important.

Very often people come to discussions such as this one asking what to
do in response to a child's unreasonable actions, but seen in the
light of radical unschooling, the child's actions were perfectly
sensible responses to something arbitrary the parent was trying to
enforce for leftover reasons.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-> I'll be honest with you. I don't like the whining, I don't like the
> crying, and I get a bit irritated when he doesn't trust me to help
> get him what he wants.-=-

I missed that little detail in the first reading.

"I get a bit irritated when he doesn't trust me to help get him what
he wants."

You just explained to us that you did NOT help him get what he wanted--
a lollipop from the bank. And you were still (I presume) right outside
the bank, or in the parking lot.
Perhaps you have defined your actions in ways that protect your own
feelings, at the expense of your child's feelings. You were right,
and he should have trusted that you DO help him get what he wants, you
seem to be saying.

But the story itself, as you told it, showed that you were not
trustworthy, and should not have been irritated with him.

What it shows is a lack of partnership. Antagonism was there. You
were irritated. He was MORE irritated. Your team lost.

http://sandradodd.com/partners/child

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dola dasgupta-banerji

***********I get a bit irritated when he doesn't trust me to help get him
what he wants. His knee-jerk reaction is to cry and maybe whine.***********


I like to share something about this trust thing. Long before I became a
unschooling parent I was a regular "control freak always saying NO first"
parent. My daughter who is now 9 years old faced my ugly parenting for
almost four years. It has been five years since I have been changing my ways
and always try to say and do affirmative things and avoid "NO".

Yet the reaction "NO" is so damaging that even today I see her hesitating
before asking for something as simple as an ice cream. It shatters my heart
to look at her face.

The power of NO is very hard to wear off. But if we practice YES, the child
becomes self assured, confident and secure human being.

The choice is for you to make. YES or NO.

For older kids you can try and say "sure baby I will get it for you or do it
for you, but it would be great if we could wait till...."

But to get there, try and say YES as much as you can now.....

Dola

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Lisa <lisa@...> wrote:

>
>
> My son is 7.
>
> So, today at the bank, I was just doing an atm withdrawal and I didn't need
> to go inside. My son said he wanted a lollipop. I said that I didn't have
> anything to go inside for and I offered him the lollipop I had in my bag.
>
> He didn't like the flavor and was a little nasty about it. Like I was
> offering him something yucky.
>
> I offered to take him home and get a lollipop. He said he didn't want to go
> home. I thought in my head "how can I get him a lollipop?" and while I was
> thinking this, he starts whining and crying.
>
> I'll be honest with you. I don't like the whining, I don't like the
> crying, and I get a bit irritated when he doesn't trust me to help get him
> what he wants. His knee-jerk reaction is to cry and maybe whine.
>
> I responded in an angry way that I'd rather not repeat, but I'm at a loss
> as for what to replace it with and I would really appreciate your views.
>
> thank you. Lisa
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa

I appreciate everone's responses, and I know that your responses are true and I know that my attitude needs adjusting also. However

I did not WANT to go in the bank though. I wanted to use the ATM and get him a lolliop somewhere else.

Do you guys always do exactly what your children want when they want it? Is every request to be fulfilled? Is there never a time when you say "It would be easier for me to do it this way and that's how I am going to do it" .. ?

Also, I think that whining and crying everytime you don't get your way and don't get what you want is behavior that should be discouraged.

I read stuff from Sandra all the time that says that she discouraged certain behaviour in her children - so where is that line? How do I know what behaviors should be discouraged and what behaviours shouldn't be so that unschooling can work.

Here is an example. This is a quote from Sandra on a past post. I see whining and crying when you don't get your way right up there with throwing a fit when you lose a game or gloating when you win.

++++_____++++++ There's a young adult in my life (friend of my kids, not one of mine)
and I forgot that I intended to avoid playing with her. She isn't fun
anymore if it looks like she's not going to win. She's nowhere near
four years old. I don't need "creative ways for multiple [people]
to win; I need to avoid being at the gaming table with her. Maybe
she'll change, but I won't. I don't like to be made to feel guilty,
and I would rather throw the game than deal with a childish
reaction. The problem with some people like that is if you throw the
game they get just as angry as if you legitimately win. The only way
for ME to win is either to work hard to win, but lose and accept the
gloating.

That behavior should've been discouraged years ago, by someone besides
me. All I can do is avoid the games.
+++++++++++++---------++++++++++

Lisa

I appreciate everone's responses, and I know that your responses are true and I know that my attitude needs adjusting also. However

I did not WANT to go in the bank though. I wanted to use the ATM and get him a lolliop somewhere else.

Do you guys always do exactly what your children want when they want it? Is every request to be fulfilled? Is there never a time when you say "It would be easier for me to do it this way and that's how I am going to do it" .. ?

Also, I think that whining and crying everytime you don't get your way and don't get what you want is behavior that should be discouraged.

I read stuff from Sandra all the time that says that she discouraged certain behaviour in her children - so where is that line? How do I know what behaviors should be discouraged and what behaviours shouldn't be so that unschooling can work.

Here is an example. This is a quote from Sandra on a past post. I see whining and crying when you don't get your way right up there with throwing a fit when you lose a game or gloating when you win.

++++_____++++++ There's a young adult in my life (friend of my kids, not one of mine)
and I forgot that I intended to avoid playing with her. She isn't fun
anymore if it looks like she's not going to win. She's nowhere near
four years old. I don't need "creative ways for multiple [people]
to win; I need to avoid being at the gaming table with her. Maybe
she'll change, but I won't. I don't like to be made to feel guilty,
and I would rather throw the game than deal with a childish
reaction. The problem with some people like that is if you throw the
game they get just as angry as if you legitimately win. The only way
for ME to win is either to work hard to win, but lose and accept the
gloating.

That behavior should've been discouraged years ago, by someone besides
me. All I can do is avoid the games.
+++++++++++++---------++++++++++

Sandra Dodd

-=-I did not WANT to go in the bank though. I wanted to use the ATM
and get him a lolliop somewhere else.-=-

It seems you're stamping your feet now because we didn't defend your
stamping your feet that day.

There is always a genetic component in biological children, and
psychologists/psychiatrists have said for 100 years or more that
parents are sometimes sharply bothered by behaviors in their children
that are the most like their own bad traits. Partly, and especially
with unschooling, it could be, it's because of a deep, subconscious
jealousy that our child is getting what we didn't get, or a vague
early memory of having gotten in trouble for doing that same thing the
child is doing.

If your mother EVER said no to you about a lollipop or anything
similar, consider that you might not have cleaned early-childhood
house, and that's affecting your happiness and that of your son. If
so, that's probably affecting the happiness of your marriage and
larger family, too. Each bit of memory you can dredge up, turn over,
and let dry in the sun of adult awareness will clear out space for you
to patient and loving with yourself, your inner child, and your
offspring.

-=-Do you guys always do exactly what your children want when they
want it?-=-

"We guys" cannot answer as a group. For me, I do not now and did not
then "do exactly what your children want when they want it," and
unless I'm misreading you, there's an insult there. If we say "yes,"
then we're something. Doormats? Pushovers? If we say "no," then you
might think "WELL then; I was right."

Neither of those is right or good. Neither extreme is balance.

-=-Do you guys always do exactly what your children want when they
want it?-=-

I did when my children were younger and I do now that they are 18, 21
and 24, do what my children want if I can, and as soon as I can, if
it's something useful, non-harmful, fun and that leads to learning,
especially. I *always* pause and make sure I'm not being selfish if I
feel a whine or objection building up in me. It took a few years to
get solidly there, but I started intentionally getting there when
Kirby was a baby and only child. If people had fed me the traditional
"they're just kids; you're the adult" stuff when they were young, we
wouldn't have the relationship we have today.

-=- Is every request to be fulfilled?-=-

If it's simple and reasonable, why not? If you can afford it, why
not? A free lollipop would only have cost you time and a little
patience, and it would be good practice for you to do something
selfless that involves patience; it will make it easier the next time,
and even easier the third time, and soon you will lose track of
counting how many times you were soft and calm and patient.

-=- Is there never a time when you say "It would be easier for me to
do it this way and that's how I am going to do it" .. ?-=-

Never. Not in those terms. Not "and that's how I am going to do
it." Not to someone I love. Not to my husband, not to my kids. I
might explain why I think another way would be easier, and because I
have been patient countless times, they're very likely to be patient
and accepting (soft and calm and selfless) with me.

-=-Also, I think that whining and crying everytime you don't get your
way and don't get what you want is behavior that should be discouraged-
=-

Clearly you do. And you want us all to think so, too, even though our
children aren't whining and crying as much as yours is (possibly).

-=-I read stuff from Sandra all the time that says that she
discouraged certain behaviour in her children - so where is that line?
How do I know what behaviors should be discouraged and what behaviours
shouldn't be so that unschooling can work.-=-

It seems you didn't really read the other responses. At the bottom of
this e-mail in the fine print from yahoo will be a link that says
Messages in this topic.
Please, not for the good of me or the list, but for the good of your
son, read every one of them again slowly, breathing calmly, thinking
perhaps you missed something the first time. The suggestion was made
several times that perhaps you were wrong and your son was right.
Whining and crying is no worse than a mom saying no when a yes was
immediately at hand.

I have and still do "discourage certain behavior" in my children, but
we have long been at the very-fine-tuning stages of that.

This example is evidence on MY side, though. Notes below.

====================

Here is an example. This is a quote from Sandra on a past post. I see
whining and crying when you don't get your way right up there with
throwing a fit when you lose a game or gloating when you win.

++++_____++++++ There's a young adult in my life (friend of my kids,
not one of mine)
and I forgot that I intended to avoid playing with her. She isn't fun
anymore if it looks like she's not going to win. She's nowhere near
four years old. I don't need "creative ways for multiple [people]
to win; I need to avoid being at the gaming table with her. Maybe
she'll change, but I won't. I don't like to be made to feel guilty,
and I would rather throw the game than deal with a childish
reaction. The problem with some people like that is if you throw the
game they get just as angry as if you legitimately win. The only way
for ME to win is either to work hard to win, but lose and accept the
gloating.

That behavior should've been discouraged years ago, by someone besides
me. All I can do is avoid the games.
+++++++++++++---------++++++++++

================================================

That wasn't an unschooler. That wasn't one of my children. That is
someone who spends more time at my house than at her parents' house.
That is someone who is not honest with her parents and stopped being
honest with them a dozen years or more ago. Her parents tease her and
criticize her. I gave that as a bad example.

If you want to continue being critical of your son and defensive of
your selfish stance, you're headed toward that girl's life, not my
children's lives.

Your relationship with your son should be more important than which
lollipop is which. You and he are not the same age. You don't have
the same awareness or responsibility. If you are a team (which is
what you need to work toward for unschooling to work as it's described
on this list), then you *will* do most of the work and the bending and
fetching for a while. And when he's older, IF you're a team, he will
begin to do more. If when he gets older you are not a team, it will
be too late to get him that lollipop when he was seven.

If you re-read the earlier posts in this topic, I think you will see
those same things said in different ways by other people already.

I know there are people on this list who never post here, but do post
on another list or two, that they invite people over there when they
are "attacked" here. So if you consider this an attack on you,
because people didn't sooth and "support," I have no doubt you will
get a side invitation to another list where they don't discuss
unschooling so much as they badmouth other people. I also know many
people are shocked when they write to a group of women and those women
don't commiserate and say "It is SO HARD having kids, isn't it? We're
all doing the best we can."

I have zero interest in investing my time and energy in that, past
this collection where I put those statements when I find them:
http://sandradodd.com/support

This list exists to support the potential of your son being unschooled
by a happy and confident mom. We're on his side.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa

I am not stomping my feet. I am trying to understand. How can a child who gets every wish fulfilled if possible, whose parents bend over backwards to try to help them and give them everything they want - how can that child not grow up thinking they are entitled to everything they want, and entitled to have other people get it for them?

I know adults who are nasty and think everyone owes them something and don't think twice about taking, taking, taking from others. How do I know that this is not what my son will end up being like?

I know you are right Sandra, I do, but I'm just not sure how to get on the other side of the fence I am on.

After I read my post, I could see that it was more about my response to his response than it was about the lollipop, and that the lollipop could have been a non-issue .... but I still can't figure out how to get past that hurdle.

My mom didn't ever deny me a lollipop, because I wouldn't have dared to ask for one. I was downright beaten by mother and step-father until I was bigger than my mom and even after that I was still threatened with extreme physical harm by my step-father who was bigger than me.

I can't even begin to tell you the horror that was my childhood. And I can be grateful for that because it led me to unschooling and to a good relationship with my son now, but I still can't get over that hurdle of the way people TREAT ME and the way people behave around me.

I want to be happy and confident too. And I'm not sure how to get there from here. I'm a lot happier and a lot more confident than I used to be, but nowhere near what I want to be and I don't know where to go and what to do now.

You say examine old memories with adult awareness ... how? How do I do this?

lylaw

From: Lisa
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 10:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: help needed with my reaction



I am not stomping my feet. I am trying to understand. How can a child who gets every wish fulfilled if possible, whose parents bend over backwards to try to help them and give them everything they want - how can that child not grow up thinking they are entitled to everything they want, and entitled to have other people get it for them?

I know adults who are nasty and think everyone owes them something and don't think twice about taking, taking, taking from others. How do I know that this is not what my son will end up being like? >>

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

imagine for a moment what those nasty adults with a sense of entitlement likely experienced as children...just sit with it and imagine. is it easier for you to imagine that they had a bounty of their needs met, readily and lovingly, as children, or that they did not - and instead were deprived of even the right to FEEL desires without reprimand...for me it is abundantly obvious that it is the latter.

lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I know adults who are nasty and think everyone owes them something
and don't think twice about taking, taking, taking from others. -=-

Were they unschooled?

-=-I know you are right Sandra, I do, but I'm just not sure how to get
on the other side of the fence I am on.-=-

"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
You can't get to it be writing, about it. You need to get to it by
making choices about interactions with your son.

If you haven't listened to this talk, it has good examples about
choices. It's at the bottom of this page:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully

-=-You say examine old memories with adult awareness ... how? How do I
do this? -=-

Gradually. When a memory comes, try not to go with the emotion of it,
but with something that could have gone differently. Just imagine a
time when you were afraid to ask and think what it might have been
like if your mom had been different and you had asked and she had said
yes. That would be enough for one "session."

Maybe think back to what you might know of your mother's childhood.
What if that had been different? Sometimes just let your mind go to
that place, but don't try to stay there and make up a big story, just
a little peek, with a "what if" thought.

-=-I can't even begin to tell you the horror that was my childhood.-=-

Don't. And don't continue to review it in your mind. It messed up
your early life. Do not allow it to mess up this year, or next year.
DO NOT allowe it to mess up your son's life.

-=- And I can be grateful for that because it led me to unschooling
and to a good relationship with my son now, but I still can't get over
that hurdle of the way people TREAT ME and the way people behave
around me.-=-

Many children grow up limited and deprived and cannot WAIT for their
promised "turn," when they finally "can do anything they want to," and
like fraternity or military hazing, they turn on their children (or
other people's children) and limit and deprive them, because it is
their turn. And they accepted the idea that children are and SHOULD
BE powerless, that children are not important, adults are; that
children's desires are not important, adults' are. And by doing
that, the cycle is not broken.

Someone has to decide to forego that turn to "be big" at the expense
of younger human beings. Someone has to NOT do to others as was
done to her, or that family legacy will continue.

If you want to be different, you can't keep being the same way.

There are some wonderfully ambiguous lyrics in a song by Sister
Hazel. It was used as the closing song of a movie called Bedazzled,
which comes across as a comedy but is one of those rare movies that's
all about philosophy and spiritual issues. The chorus is

If you want to be somebody else
If you're tired of fighting battles with yourself
If you want to be somebody else
Change your mind.

Either way you interpret the last line makes deep sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y944YxuE1OU
I really love that song.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

It's late and I should be sleeping, so I'm not typing well. I've
repaired that second line.

"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
You can't get to it by writing about it.



Sorry I bungled it the first time. I hope some of you read through
without noticing I was fumble-fingered.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jason & Stephanie

Tonight I was at Publix for 2 items. My son who is 8 and doesn't let me go anywhere without him asked if the deli was still open. It was after 9 and at Kroger it would be closed. I said I'm not sure but we'll see.

Well I got my items and went to the checkout and in the checkout he asked again because he wanted a cookie.

I totally forgot just in those few minutes. I asked the clerk if it was open because he wants a cookie. They told me it was, so after I paid for the items we went to the bakery area. nobody was there, we waited a few minutes, then I went to the deli counter and asked them. They went and got the person at the bakery and gave my son a cookie.

It really was no big deal and only took a few minutes :)

Stephanie in TN

www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
http://familyrun.ning.com/profile/Stephanie

"Children do not need to be made to learn to be better, told what to do or shown how. If they are given access to enough of the world, they will see clearly enough what things are truly important to themselves and to others, and they will make for themselves a better path into that world then anyone else could make for them."
~John Holt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dola dasgupta-banerji

**********My mom didn't ever deny me a lollipop, because I wouldn't have
dared to ask for one. I was downright beaten by mother and step-father until
I was bigger than my mom and even after that I was still threatened with
extreme physical harm by my step-father who was bigger than me.

I can't even begin to tell you the horror that was my childhood. And I can
be grateful for that because it led me to unschooling and to a good
relationship with my son now, but I still can't get over that hurdle of the
way people TREAT ME and the way people behave around me.***************


I deeply feel for your childhood. And always remember if you too feel deeply
for your "inner child", that is "you" at whatever age you were traumatized,
then you will stop right now what you are doing with your son.

The only way to heal the scars of your childhood is by being "now" exactly
the way you wish your childhood "had been".

Every time "your response" is the same as that of "your moms or stepdad's"
you are only perpetuating the same pattern of anger and violence.

Please be kind to your "inner child" love her, comfort her, praise her, hold
her. Indulge her the way you wished your mom and stepfather had, and see how
your response to your son changes miraculously.

With every new response from you your confidence in yourself will grow by
leaps and bounds and your near and dear ones will also grow in love.

Can you see a little "now" how it was never about your son. The root is
always the self and not the other.


Dola

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Lisa <lisa@...> wrote:

>
>
> I am not stomping my feet. I am trying to understand. How can a child who
> gets every wish fulfilled if possible, whose parents bend over backwards to
> try to help them and give them everything they want - how can that child not
> grow up thinking they are entitled to everything they want, and entitled to
> have other people get it for them?
>
> I know adults who are nasty and think everyone owes them something and
> don't think twice about taking, taking, taking from others. How do I know
> that this is not what my son will end up being like?
>
> I know you are right Sandra, I do, but I'm just not sure how to get on the
> other side of the fence I am on.
>
> After I read my post, I could see that it was more about my response to his
> response than it was about the lollipop, and that the lollipop could have
> been a non-issue .... but I still can't figure out how to get past that
> hurdle.
>
> My mom didn't ever deny me a lollipop, because I wouldn't have dared to ask
> for one. I was downright beaten by mother and step-father until I was bigger
> than my mom and even after that I was still threatened with extreme physical
> harm by my step-father who was bigger than me.
>
> I can't even begin to tell you the horror that was my childhood. And I can
> be grateful for that because it led me to unschooling and to a good
> relationship with my son now, but I still can't get over that hurdle of the
> way people TREAT ME and the way people behave around me.
>
> I want to be happy and confident too. And I'm not sure how to get there
> from here. I'm a lot happier and a lot more confident than I used to be, but
> nowhere near what I want to be and I don't know where to go and what to do
> now.
>
> You say examine old memories with adult awareness ... how? How do I do
> this?
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer Schuelein

I have learned over time that when I go above and beyond for my son and his seemingly simple needs (we adults think of a lolly or a cookie as something to dismiss, sometimes), I am repaid in thankfulness and I also feel very good. Helping my son navigate the world makes me full...by making him full, I am full, you see. We need to keep our children full and not dismiss their needs and desires. You might try asking yourself if the thing he is asking will hurt him or anyone around. If not, then do it! Also, if something so simple can make a child very happy then well, it's always my attitude to make it happen. Don't take those little moments for granted.

My mother was a single mom and left me alone a great deal. I had an ok childhood, but it wasn't anything near as wonderful as what I am giving my child. I strive to give him everything I lacked, to keep him full and happy. In the end, when he is older, I am confident he will be a loving, joyful, considerate, caring person that goes above and beyond for his loved ones. He, too, had the "gimmies" as I call them (where he whined and begged for things). He went through a demanding phase and a phase where he seemed spoiled. We rode the wave and focused on reminding him of more pleasant behaviors. Also, distraction is a great tool. If you have to disappoint, fill the void with something else, but make it equally as interesting (which can be a simple thing like looking at a dog across the street or counting how many people are wearing blue on the sidewalk - silly, fun things).

The thing I like to always remind myself of is that growing up and learning about life is a journey and that I have a responsibility to my child, due to my choices of attachment parenting and radical unschooling, to make life interesting and to pay attention to my sons needs all the time. Let your journey be a happy one.

--- In [email protected], "Jason & Stephanie" <jay_steph93@...> wrote:
>
> Tonight I was at Publix for 2 items. My son who is 8 and doesn't let me go anywhere without him asked if the deli was still open. It was after 9 and at Kroger it would be closed. I said I'm not sure but we'll see.
>
> Well I got my items and went to the checkout and in the checkout he asked again because he wanted a cookie.
>
> I totally forgot just in those few minutes. I asked the clerk if it was open because he wants a cookie. They told me it was, so after I paid for the items we went to the bakery area. nobody was there, we waited a few minutes, then I went to the deli counter and asked them. They went and got the person at the bakery and gave my son a cookie.
>
> It really was no big deal and only took a few minutes :)
>
> Stephanie in TN
>
> www.learningthroughliving-stephanie.blogspot.com
> http://familyrun.ning.com/profile/Stephanie
>
> "Children do not need to be made to learn to be better, told what to do or shown how. If they are given access to enough of the world, they will see clearly enough what things are truly important to themselves and to others, and they will make for themselves a better path into that world then anyone else could make for them."
> ~John Holt
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Schuyler

>>"I am not stomping my feet. I am trying to understand. How can a child who
>>gets every wish fulfilled if possible, whose parents bend over backwards to try
>>to help them and give them everything they want - how can that child not grow up
>>thinking they are entitled to everything they want, and entitled to have other
>>people get it for them?"<<

Because what the child is seeing and experiencing is generosity and love and
kindness. The more you are kind to your child the more they will know kindness.
The more you are generous with him the more generous he will know how to be. It
isn't entitlement that they grow up knowing, it is kindness and care and love.

When Linnaea was little, and Simon was like this a bit, it felt like she wanted
everything. But she didn't. She wanted some things. Learning to come up with
ways to get her those things, bouncy balls from a vending machine every time we
went swimming, stuffed animals from the zoo every time we went to the zoo, dolls
every time we went to the toy store, and so on, has helped her to grow into a
child who is fairly discerning in what she gets. I wouldn't have predicted that
when I was trying to fight my tendency to say no. In full justification of the
nos I might have said I could have talked about entitlement and about how these
aren't things she needs and how she wouldn't play with them for long and on and
on. But what the yesses gave her was a sense of being valued, of being listened
to, of having her choices and desires supported. She knows that David and I are
willing to work to meet her needs and aren't going to sit in judgement on which
of her needs is the one we'll choose to support.

It was hard to say yes in the beginning and so I gave both she and Simon an
allowance so that they could use their money when I was too whatever to use my
own. Too grouchy, too hungry, too worried about money, too whatever. It also
gave them the power to save for something. And they do. We went to Hamley's in
London on Tuesday and they bought Yugioh cards. I was happy to buy them for
them, but they both wanted to pay for them, and they used their saved allowances
to do so. They are not particularly frivolous, but they are generous. They are
rarely broke.

>>"You say examine old memories with adult awareness ... how? How do I do
>>this?"<<

I can remember getting things I didn't necessarily want simply because my
parents offered to buy them. There was a broom from Pioneer Village in Minden,
Nebraska. It was a small broom, and it was made there, and I wanted it because I
could have it. There were the acid washed papers of the Gettysburg Address from
a trip to Gettysburg and the Constitution in similarly prematurely aged form, I
didn't really want them, but they were within the things my parents would get
me, so I was excited to get them. I got a bunch of books on marine biology
because my mom thought that was an okay interest to support, but I really wanted
books on Alastair Crowley, which she didn't think were things I should be
reading. I bought a cardigan once that I still have, it's my cautionary
cardigan, because David told me I could have it. I don't particularly like it,
but I was allowed to have it, so I wanted it. I've had both Simon and Linnaea
regularly turn things down that I've offered to buy them. It amazes me every
time. I'm fully willing to buy them something and they turn it down because it
isn't something that they want.

Being able to see that the reason they can turn things down is because they have
been given the things they want is a big way of examining my own relationship
with buying and needing things. Seeing how supporting them and what they are
interested in has helped them to feel fuller and bigger and more sated and less
needy and small and unheard has been a powerful instrument in looking at my own
need for reassurance and permission to buy something.

It isn't entitlement that comes from being loving and kind, it is an overflowing
cup of love and kindness.

Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
You can't get to it by writing about it.<<<

I tried to. For a while.

But I had the best luck when, through the encouragement of words on
this list and the Unschooling Discussion list, I let go and tried some
of the things suggested. And they turned out to be good ideas.

For me the key was (and is) to watch for the smiles and relaxed
posture. If your reaction has been mostly forbidding or "no" for a
while, it will take time for trust to grow into relaxing and being
happy. And I needed time anyway to get better at spotting my child's
much milder more subtle body language when happy as compared with the
more obvious drama of complaints. I also needed to gain sensitivity to
what, at one time, was barely noticed sadness at my insensitivities.

I've always prided myself on knowing body language because I don't
hear well and read lips and that kind of thing, but there were things
I had learned to ignore in body language which I had thought were
convenient since they freed me from being too sensitive to just
any-and-everyone's whim. But that turned out not to be a good thing
with my child or his dad.

Another key to getting why doing what others wish when possible is
that it feels good and nurtures that starved for love inner child that
can often still be sorrowing and in need of my care.

I have a blogpost on that inner child bit and since I'm on my PDA I
may post the link later.

I can't tell you how much better what I'm doing is now. But you could
try it yourself and not need to hear it from me. You would have
yourself.

~Katherine

On 10/2/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> It's late and I should be sleeping, so I'm not typing well. I've
> repaired that second line.
>
> "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
> You can't get to it by writing about it.
>
>
>
> Sorry I bungled it the first time. I hope some of you read through
> without noticing I was fumble-fingered.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

k

>>>You would have
yourself.<<<

That too. But I meant to say: you would have it yourself.


On 10/2/10, k <katherand@...> wrote:
>>>>"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
> You can't get to it by writing about it.<<<
>
> I tried to. For a while.
>
> But I had the best luck when, through the encouragement of words on
> this list and the Unschooling Discussion list, I let go and tried some
> of the things suggested. And they turned out to be good ideas.
>
> For me the key was (and is) to watch for the smiles and relaxed
> posture. If your reaction has been mostly forbidding or "no" for a
> while, it will take time for trust to grow into relaxing and being
> happy. And I needed time anyway to get better at spotting my child's
> much milder more subtle body language when happy as compared with the
> more obvious drama of complaints. I also needed to gain sensitivity to
> what, at one time, was barely noticed sadness at my insensitivities.
>
> I've always prided myself on knowing body language because I don't
> hear well and read lips and that kind of thing, but there were things
> I had learned to ignore in body language which I had thought were
> convenient since they freed me from being too sensitive to just
> any-and-everyone's whim. But that turned out not to be a good thing
> with my child or his dad.
>
> Another key to getting why doing what others wish when possible is
> that it feels good and nurtures that starved for love inner child that
> can often still be sorrowing and in need of my care.
>
> I have a blogpost on that inner child bit and since I'm on my PDA I
> may post the link later.
>
> I can't tell you how much better what I'm doing is now. But you could
> try it yourself and not need to hear it from me. You would have
> yourself.
>
> ~Katherine
>
> On 10/2/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>> It's late and I should be sleeping, so I'm not typing well. I've
>> repaired that second line.
>>
>> "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
>> You can't get to it by writing about it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry I bungled it the first time. I hope some of you read through
>> without noticing I was fumble-fingered.
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Marina DeLuca-Howard

<<I'll be honest with you.
I did not WANT to go in the bank though. I wanted to use the ATM and get him
a lolliop somewhere else.>>
and
<<I don't like the whining>> wrote Lisa, yet, the whole tone of your email
is *whine*. I am sorry to break it to you but the way you describe your
son in demeaning terms, when he is expressing distress is a sign you need to
re-think your relationship.

Most of the "whiney adults" I know cannot stand it in others especially
children. They use their adult power to judge and to shut down disempowered
children, rather than empathize with them.

Here's how is sounded from your child's perspective:
I wanted a lollipop. My mother offered me a different lollipop. She then
became more irrational about how to get me a lollipop and her banking needs
somehow cancelled my lollipop needs, just because she didn't want to go in a
bank. She was completely distracted by her own "playing" to deal with my
serious request for a lollipop.

<<Do you guys always do exactly what your children want when they want it?
Is every request to be fulfilled? Is there never a time when you say "It
would be easier for me to do it this way and that's how I am going to do it"
.. ?

Also, I think that whining and crying everytime you don't get your way and
don't get what you want is behavior that should be discouraged. >>

I have a fourteen, seven, and ten year old and they don't always get what
they want. Some time they have conflicting needs/desires/ideas. We do a
lot of talking, discussing and arguing. As the parent you hold yourself to
higher standards of patience because you have more resources or at least
*most* parents on this list do this and that allows them to embrace
children who are upset, rather than rant, rave and have an email *meltdown*,
where they present themselves as injured by a child's request and subsequent
disappointment.

Marina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela Shaw

<Being able to see that the reason they can turn things down is because they
have
been given the things they want is a big way of examining my own
relationship
with buying and needing things>

I've been reading about unschooling and putting it into practice since my
oldest was 5. She's 15 now. They know that we will always do our best to
get them what they want. They are and never have been those bratty kind of
kids who want EVERYTHING. Those are the kids who don't feel loved and are
trying to fill the void with stuff. It will never be enough because what
they want is love an acceptance and what they are getting is stuff.

Money is tight for us this year. Between medical bills and less overtime we
are going to have to tighten our belts for a while. We've talked about it
with the girls. My oldest offered to pay for all her riding lessons because
she can work them off at the barn.

I asked my youngest the other day what she would like for Christmas so I
can start shopping now and pick up things when I find sales. She told me
she'd really like a pair of shipping boots (for her horse and they are about
$60) but that she couldn't really think of anything else she "needed." She
said she'd think about it. Despite her very difficult year (and that's the
understatement of the year), her cup is pretty full and she doesn't feel
like she "needs" anything for Christmas. It's because she feels LOVED!



Angela



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Laureen

Heya!

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Lisa <lisa@...> wrote:

> I am not stomping my feet. I am trying to understand. How can a child who
> gets every wish fulfilled if possible, whose parents bend over backwards to
> try to help them and give them everything they want - how can that child not
> grow up thinking they are entitled to everything they want, and entitled to
> have other people get it for them?
>

This is really important. Go get a cup of tea or something and take some
time to really sit with this. Because this right here is where you need to
unkink your think, and depart from our culture.

Our culture leads you to believe that at base children are bad and require
correction. The moment you realize, deep in your gut, that at base, they're
awesome and require love, the whole thing just shifts over.

I found that reading Polly Berends really helped. I also found Continuum
Concept to be useful. But honestly? Just thinking about it, and watching my
own kids, was what really turned the corner for me. You don't have to stop
them from being evil and entitled. You have to recognize that they're
inherently spectacular, and all you have to do is love and support and
encourage them, and they blossom. And in the act of learning how to do that,
you'll discover along the way that you blossom too.

I too had bits of my childhood that were pretty horrific. For me, taking
each bit out and examining it was way way way too much for me to deal with.
So I locked most of that junk up in a pretty box labeled "unfortunate
circumstance" and put it on a shelf. It neither defines me, nor informs my
current actions.

Say yes. Choose love. Get on with making your corner of the world as
wonderful as possible. Let the rest sort itself out.

--
~~L!

s/v Excellent Adventure
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/

"I can’t understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I’m frightened
of the old ones."
~~John Cage


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"Lisa" <lisa@...> wrote:
>> I know adults who are nasty and think everyone owes them something and don't think twice about taking, taking, taking from others. How do I know that this is not what my son will end up being like?
****************

Were they lavished with love and care and "let me help you" as children? Every adult I know who is demanding in that way heard a whole lot of "no" as a child, or was given things in place of affection. The adults I know who have been in prison did not come from homes where care was lavished on them. They did come from homes where they heard a lot of "you can't always get what you want".

> My mom didn't ever deny me a lollipop, because I wouldn't have dared to ask for one. I was downright beaten by mother and step-father
*******************

And so its natural for you to want "your turn" at being the one to say no - its wonderful that you're trying to do it more kindly! But you can go beyond that. Be the kindness and compassion you would have wanted from your own parents. Not only will your child benefit, you will too! Give Yourself the gift of being the kind, gentle compassionate mother you wanted and re-parent yourself. That's one of the wonderful parts of unschooling, it lets you heal your own hurts in addition to keeping you from passing them on to your kids.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

Marina DeLuca-Howard <delucahoward@...> wrote:
>> I have a fourteen, seven, and ten year old and they don't always get what
> they want.

It's a sort of strange fallacy to think that it's somehow possible to Always get what one wants!

About three weeks ago I got some kites - they were on clearance and I figured I'd stock up - and ever since Mo has wanted to fly a kite. Well, the wind has not cooperated! It has been light and erratic and not very good for kite flying. We've tried a few different places: the neighbors mown hillside, a local park that's often a perfect spot for kites, a field outside my workplace. Not much luck, alas. The One thing my 9yo would dearly love right now, and she can't have it.

She's used to the idea that she *can't* always get what she wants, but also to the idea that I and her dad will try to help her get what she wants when we can. She's made do by racing up and down the driveway with the kite on a short string so the speed of the run will create enough lift to keep the kite afloat. Its pretty adorable.

In conventional parenting "you can't always get what you want" is an end game. In unschooling its just another challenge to problem solve around. But it Gets to be "just another challenge" because of parents' willingness to try do whatever they can. Grab every easy Yes you can and be glad its an easy one! Life will throw enough challenges in your path that you don't ever have to add a single one.

---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was happy to buy them for
them, but they both wanted to pay for them, and they used their saved
allowances
to do so. They are not particularly frivolous, but they are generous.
They are
rarely broke. -=-

My kids were that way with allowances too. Sometimes they would buy
something that I would rather have bought for them so they could save
their allowance. I hadn't foreseen that they were learning about
money in ways I had never predicted. I would *never* have spent my
meagre allowance on practicalities. My mother showed me selfishness
and limits, and she was NOT getting any of my money.

When I was little and had received money gifts when I was too young to
spend them, my mom didn't save them for me; she spent them. When my
kids were too little and would get a card from the other grandparents
with money in it ($2 for a two year old, $3 for a three year old...),
I would leave the money in the card sometimes, and leave it in a
folder of things for that child. When they were older, on some slack
day with not much to do, or if they asked about handwriting or grandma
and grandpa, or whatever it was, I would get that folder (different
for each child, different times, casual) and look through things and
they would discover excitedly that they had money they hadn't known
about.

I did that to honor the little girl I had been whose "property" and
gifts were not respected or maintained, but were coveted and resented
by my mother. (My dad was a sweet man who didn't cross my mother much
about the children.) But in doing what I thought was right and good,
I became a person who was conscious of making decisions in my child's
favor. Once I BECAME that person, I wasn't having to think very hard
to make those decisions. It's harder at first, when other people's
voices are in your head saying "You fed him and bought him clothes;
keep that money," or "He's just a child; he doesn't know what he's
talking about," or "He might *want* that but he doesn't *NEED* it."
When you try to hear those voices and identify which parent,
grandparent, aunt, neighbor, friend it is, you can say to that
recording in your head "Enough; no more." And the next time you start
to hear it, realize that is not your thoughts, that's a tape of
something that was said that made you feel embarrassment or shame or
to think you were wrong or small.

Everyone has those message in them, I think. And probably some nice,
positive ones, too. In Freudian terms, that's the superego, where
rules are, where "should" lives. Don't try to get rid of it, just be
aware that it collects odd things and doesn't identify the quotes when
they come pouring out. Just clean the superego closet when you find
something that's harmful to you or your child.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- I've had both Simon and Linnaea
regularly turn things down that I've offered to buy them. It amazes me
every
time. I'm fully willing to buy them something and they turn it down
because it
isn't something that they want. -=-

The thing that struck me most about what my kids would turn down was
eating out. If we were on errands, I would (still do, and still get
turned down half the time or more) say "Do you want to eat
[wherever]?" Or "Do you want me to drive through somewhere?"

When they were little and they wanted the toy, they would want fast
food kid meals. If they didn't want the toy, they didn't want the meal.

When they got older, they were often happier to come home and eat
something I made than to eat something out. Sometimes they said it
wasn't worth the money, and sometimes they said they just liked my
food better.

I never liked my mom's food better. It was all tainted with years of
meanness, and I knew she slammed around resentfully when she cooked,
which soured the whole thing, too. It wasn't a gift, it was "here's
your damned food" with a lingering tone of "and I hope you choke on
it." Though if I had choked on it, she would have yelled at me for
not chewing right, for not swallowing right.

The opposite of that is making food for a child and learning not to be
whiney or petulant if the child doesn't want that thing, or isn't
hungry. My children don't eat what they don't want. How healthy is
that!? I would eat just to eat, because food outside my house had a
joy and niceness that I needed.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sheeboo2

---------It's a sort of strange fallacy to think that it's somehow possible to Always get what one wants!--------------

It is also interesting to note when adults, in the guise of teaching their children that they can't always have what they want, are actually trying to get exactly what it is s/he (the adult) wants, be it spending less money, avoiding "wasting" time.....

Brie

Sandra Dodd

This is beautiful:

-=-The thing I like to always remind myself of is that growing up and
learning about life is a journey and that I have a responsibility to
my child, due to my choices of attachment parenting and radical
unschooling, to make life interesting and to pay attention to my sons
needs all the time. Let your journey be a happy one.-=-

No one has ever been court ordered to unschool. It's a choice every
single time. Jennifer has described wonderfully what it means in
terms of choices after the unschooling decision is made.

Unschooling badly isn't a good option for anyone. That can lead to
court orders to put kids in school. So if people are going to do it,
they should really do it.
http://sandradodd.com/doit

-=-I have learned over time that when I go above and beyond for my son
and his seemingly simple needs (we adults think of a lolly or a cookie
as something to dismiss, sometimes), I am repaid in thankfulness and I
also feel very good. Helping my son navigate the world makes me
full...by making him full, I am full, you see. We need to keep our
children full and not dismiss their needs and desires. -=-

My middle child, Marty, has a girlfriend. He's 21. She's 24. She
was at the Santa Fe unschooling symposium I sponsored last January. I
passed by as she was talking to one of the unschooling moms and heard
her say "He treats me like a princess."

I wrote this last week, and what Jennifer wrote about being full
reminded me of it:
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2010/09/overflowing.html

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]