kristi_beguin

My Mother is a very devout Christian who has been so willing to learn about how we are raising our children. She cares for my daughters every Friday, and I know this is the biggest challenge of her week. She is going very much outside her comfort zone (previous authoritative, disciplinarian methods of child-rearing) to learn about unschooling and responding without punishing. But she is doing so graciously and respectfully, and I absolutely feel thankful for her willingness to do so and for her desire to help me by being with my girls one day a week while we work. She thoroughly supports our unschooling choice, and that alone is priceless.

My husband and I are non-religious, and we do not often discuss religious ideas or principals in our house. My Mother asked me years ago if it was okay for her to give them books, music, or DVDs of Christian perspective, and I said it was fine. I have not wanted to offend her desire to sing songs with them, read to them, etc. and up until now, they never had issue with it. I was raised by her, and so I have a pretty good idea of how she interacts with them with regards to reading, singing, and the sort. Mostly she just plays with my girls--they play games, they run around, they sing songs, they go to the park, they go out to eat. She's not doing Bible study, or Sunday-school type stuff at all, mostly singing Christian songs and listening to CDs in the car.

Recently, Nena (age 8) told me that she was tired of listening to the few bible song CDs my Mom plays while they are driving. I suggested she ask her Grandma if she would be willing to play some of the other CDs that Nena enjoys, and so she did, and Grandma was okay with it.

As an aside, my husband is a professional drummer and plays in a variety of bands and genres, but most recently was playing in a death metal band. My kids love the music, and actually wrote their own lyrics to the death metal music, and created their own dance routines, which were really good. My husband listens to a lot of different kinds of music, including death metal, punk rock, thrash, and many other genres, some of which has lyrics that I am certain my daughters have picked out, such as Slayer's "God hates us all."

Anyway, when Nena told her Dad about telling Grandma that she wanted to listen more to her music and not the Bible music, my husband made some comments about God and not really believing in religion, etc. They weren't particularly striking to me, but apparently they were to Signe, who is 4. The next time Signe saw Grandma, and Grandma asked if they wanted to listen to the Bible songs, Signe said, "You know, God isn't real."

My Mom confronted me about it, and told me that while it's none of her business how we choose to raise our kids, that if I am going to teach my children about God, I better start doing it now because they are obviously being influenced somewhere about it, and not in a good way.

I respectfully side-stepped the conversation, and forgot about it until today. She had watched my girls Friday, and apparently they had made several comments to her about God and other controversial topics such as ghosts, witches, and Halloween. My Mom was notably upset, and took several days to mull it over before bringing it up with me today.

So...basically, I would like to bring up the subject with my girls on how we can be kind and respectful to Grandma about her beliefs, but I would like to do so in a way that discourages them from further upsetting their Grandma. With Signe, almost any discussion of something I don't want her to do will lead to her doing it more, which may be a developmental stage, but I've noticed it quite a bit in the past couple months. With Nena, the actual discussion of a controversial topic will cause her to dismiss it and not want to discuss it at all.

Any ideas on how I can approach this subject/concept with my two girls? I'm feeling like I need some help with this one.

Thanks in advance.
Kristi

NCMama

-=- So...basically, I would like to bring up the subject with my girls on how we can be kind and respectful to Grandma about her beliefs, but I would like to do so in a way that discourages them from further upsetting their Grandma. With Signe, almost any discussion of something I don't want her to do will lead to her doing it more, which may be a developmental stage, but I've noticed it quite a bit in the past couple months. With Nena, the actual discussion of a controversial topic will cause her to dismiss it and not want to discuss it at all.-=-

My first thought is, it shouldn't be up to your girls to carry the burden of not upsetting Grandma, especially if you can't be with them when they're together.

It sounds like you want them to pretend to believe in God when they're with Grandma, even though that might not be true. Is that right?

If you're raising the girls more eclectically in the religious department, YOU will need to be honest with your mom about that. Apparently, it will upset her. That's for you two (or 3, including your husband?) to work out, not for your girls to take on.

Caren

Pam Sorooshian

On 9/7/2010 5:43 PM, NCMama wrote:
>
> My first thought is, it shouldn't be up to your girls to carry the
> burden of not upsetting Grandma, especially if you can't be with them
> when they're together.

It sounded super super sweet to me - that you want the girls to be kind
to their grandmother. It sounds to me like she's been more flexible than
you even expected and that's nice!! I don't see any reason that the
girls need to antagonize her and it doesn't sound like she's wanting to
antagonize you or them, either. The problem is they are really quite
young and it is probably too much to expect them to have the ability to
discern what would be rude to say to her. Maybe the 8 year old could
understand "That's the way grandma is and we don't always agree, but we
love her and so we don't want to argue with her about it." I don't think
a four year old could get that at all.
>
> It sounds like you want them to pretend to believe in God when they're
> with Grandma, even though that might not be true. Is that right?

It didn't sound like that to me. It sounded like Grandma would play
music and tell stories - it never sounded like Grandma was insisting
that they claim to believe in anything in particular. My kids (we are
not Christians) happily hung out with all our Christian relatives and
all of the cousins are super close now that they are all young adults.
They never felt that they needed to make any kind of point about what
they believed or didn't believe. They happily went along to some church
functions and they didn't find many occasions to make a point of not
being Christians. The family knew it. Sometimes a relative would say
grace before a meal and we'd all hold hands - my kids just graciously
went along. Once one of my kids was asked to say grace and she
hesitated, then said a very nice little "Thank you for all the good
things in our lives." Left God and Jesus out of it - but nobody seemed
to notice <G>.

When our kids are in other people's houses, even our own parents, or
when other people are doing a favor and being sweet and kind to help us
out, I don't think kids should be encouraged to belligerently contradict
them, but to be tolerant and patient, instead.

> If you're raising the girls more eclectically in the religious
> department, YOU will need to be honest with your mom about that.
> Apparently, it will upset her. That's for you two (or 3, including
> your husband?) to work out, not for your girls to take on.

It sounded like she'd already been honest and grandma had, respectfully,
asked if it was okay to play Christian music and tell Christian stories
and she'd said yes.

My recommendation is to tell Grandma how much you appreciate her for
being so respectful and that you realize it is hard, given her beliefs.
Tell her you don't mind the girls being exposed to her beliefs at all,
as long as she doesn't try to force them, as you know she won't. Tell
her that the girls are going to be exposed to a lot of different ideas
and she should not get upset when she hears all kinds of ideas from
them, that they will try out all kinds of things and, when they're
older, they'll make their own decisions.

She probably is thinking, "Oh no - it is time, if they don't get the
christianity now, they might be lost forever." Reassure her that you're
going to encourage them to think for themselves and that includes
learning about Christianity along with other points of view.

Remind her, maybe, that if they are brainwashed at a young age, they
can't really choose for themselves when they are older. (Or maybe don't
use "brainwashed," but a nicer term that she'll understand.

My mom used to take my kids to church with her - I thought that was
fine. My kids were not sitting there saying, "But I don't believe this."
They were politely being quiet, enjoying the music, listening
(critically) to the sermon, etc. There was often a lot of gist for
conversation later, but they didn't impose it on Grandma, they just
hugged her and said they loved her. They didn't pretend to believe
anything, they were just polite about not arguing with her beliefs. Not
hard to be that way as long as SHE wasn't demanding that they agree with
her.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-Remind her, maybe, that if they are brainwashed at a young age, they
can't really choose for themselves when they are older. (Or maybe don't
use "brainwashed," but a nicer term that she'll understand.-=-

That's not true, in my experience. I had an uncle who went so
totally "new age" that his daughters would have nothing to do with
him. He had been a Baptist preacher when they were kids. My
grandmother, whose large family was filled with ministers, was proud
of him for having graduated from Hardin Simmons, a Baptist college
where I had planned to apply myself; my pool was St. John's, Hardin-
Simmons or UNM.

I know many former fundamentalists and Roman Catholics who grew up
"brainwashed" and forced to attend, comply, and conform. Some of them
just relax into the church for life. Others do a 180 degree turnabout
and walk as far away from it as they can.

Perhaps that's not the choice Pam meant by "can't really choose," but
it IS a choice. If children are familiar with several options and
beliefs, though, they can make an informed decision, rather than a
reactionary one.

If a four year old can't be coached to be courteous, maybe she
shouldn't be alone with the grandmother. Maybe you could just say
"Grandma loves Jesus so don't say anything bad about Jesus." My kids
were aware of those things in terms of favorite TV shows or toys.
Barbies or Ninja Turtles or Pokemon. They knew not to razz or shame
another person for an interest. Maybe if it's treated as a "favorite
thing" or an attachment, rather than a cosmic, historical, socio-
political thing, it will be easier to talk with the kid about it.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 9/7/2010 7:44 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-Remind her, maybe, that if they are brainwashed at a young age, they
> can't really choose for themselves when they are older. (Or maybe don't
> use "brainwashed," but a nicer term that she'll understand.-=-
>
> That's not true, in my experience.

Sounded like Grandma thinks that the way to ensure they'll be Christians
is to get 'em while they're young. So my point was that she could be
told that if she succeeded, they couldn't choose later, as adults. Not
much of an argument - - but maybe worth a mention because it might make
Grandma feel better and maybe even be more relaxed.

-pam

k

I'd be interested in this thread because we have the same kinds of run-ins
with people in the community. It definitely applies to family relationships
too but Karl is fairly open to discussions about tolerating beliefs he
doesn't share with others.

~Katherine




On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 6:38 PM, kristi_beguin <foehn_jye@...> wrote:

> My Mother is a very devout Christian who has been so willing to learn about
> how we are raising our children. She cares for my daughters every Friday,
> and I know this is the biggest challenge of her week. She is going very much
> outside her comfort zone (previous authoritative, disciplinarian methods of
> child-rearing) to learn about unschooling and responding without punishing.
> But she is doing so graciously and respectfully, and I absolutely feel
> thankful for her willingness to do so and for her desire to help me by being
> with my girls one day a week while we work. She thoroughly supports our
> unschooling choice, and that alone is priceless.
>
> My husband and I are non-religious, and we do not often discuss religious
> ideas or principals in our house. My Mother asked me years ago if it was
> okay for her to give them books, music, or DVDs of Christian perspective,
> and I said it was fine. I have not wanted to offend her desire to sing songs
> with them, read to them, etc. and up until now, they never had issue with
> it. I was raised by her, and so I have a pretty good idea of how she
> interacts with them with regards to reading, singing, and the sort. Mostly
> she just plays with my girls--they play games, they run around, they sing
> songs, they go to the park, they go out to eat. She's not doing Bible study,
> or Sunday-school type stuff at all, mostly singing Christian songs and
> listening to CDs in the car.
>
> Recently, Nena (age 8) told me that she was tired of listening to the few
> bible song CDs my Mom plays while they are driving. I suggested she ask her
> Grandma if she would be willing to play some of the other CDs that Nena
> enjoys, and so she did, and Grandma was okay with it.
>
> As an aside, my husband is a professional drummer and plays in a variety of
> bands and genres, but most recently was playing in a death metal band. My
> kids love the music, and actually wrote their own lyrics to the death metal
> music, and created their own dance routines, which were really good. My
> husband listens to a lot of different kinds of music, including death metal,
> punk rock, thrash, and many other genres, some of which has lyrics that I am
> certain my daughters have picked out, such as Slayer's "God hates us all."
>
> Anyway, when Nena told her Dad about telling Grandma that she wanted to
> listen more to her music and not the Bible music, my husband made some
> comments about God and not really believing in religion, etc. They weren't
> particularly striking to me, but apparently they were to Signe, who is 4.
> The next time Signe saw Grandma, and Grandma asked if they wanted to listen
> to the Bible songs, Signe said, "You know, God isn't real."
>
> My Mom confronted me about it, and told me that while it's none of her
> business how we choose to raise our kids, that if I am going to teach my
> children about God, I better start doing it now because they are obviously
> being influenced somewhere about it, and not in a good way.
>
> I respectfully side-stepped the conversation, and forgot about it until
> today. She had watched my girls Friday, and apparently they had made several
> comments to her about God and other controversial topics such as ghosts,
> witches, and Halloween. My Mom was notably upset, and took several days to
> mull it over before bringing it up with me today.
>
> So...basically, I would like to bring up the subject with my girls on how
> we can be kind and respectful to Grandma about her beliefs, but I would like
> to do so in a way that discourages them from further upsetting their
> Grandma. With Signe, almost any discussion of something I don't want her to
> do will lead to her doing it more, which may be a developmental stage, but
> I've noticed it quite a bit in the past couple months. With Nena, the actual
> discussion of a controversial topic will cause her to dismiss it and not
> want to discuss it at all.
>
> Any ideas on how I can approach this subject/concept with my two girls? I'm
> feeling like I need some help with this one.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> Kristi
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kristi_beguin

>>>My first thought is, it shouldn't be up to your girls to carry the burden of not upsetting Grandma, especially if you can't be with them when they're together.<<<

That's not it at all. I understand what you are saying, but my intent is not to burden my children with the task of not upsetting Grandma, but more about understanding that those one or two things they've said about God really cause her turmoil, and because we love Grandma, it would be nice if they didn't say those one or two things.

>>>It sounds like you want them to pretend to believe in God when they're with Grandma, even though that might not be true. Is that right?<<<

Definitely NOT. I have no interest in pretending anything. I just do not want offend.

kristi_beguin

>>>When our kids are in other people's houses, even our own parents, or when other people are doing a favor and being sweet and kind to help us out, I don't think kids should be encouraged to belligerently contradict them, but to be tolerant and patient, instead.<<<

Yes, this is very much how I've been feeling. I realize that my 4yr old is trying things out and getting a shock value in return, which may be encouraging to her to try it more. It may take more skill on my part to help her to understand why I want her to not make these statements about God to her.

Last night before we fell asleep, I asked Nena if I could talk to her about Grandma and about her feelings for God and Jesus, and Nena listened to me calmly and even asked a few questions about it. This morning, she told me how much she loves her Grandma and wants her to feel safe. I thought that was really, really cool. Perhaps I'll bring it up again on occasion, to remind her of my feelings about how much we appreciate my Mom's support.

>>>My recommendation is to tell Grandma how much you appreciate her for being so respectful and that you realize it is hard, given her beliefs. Tell her you don't mind the girls being exposed to her beliefs at all, as long as she doesn't try to force them, as you know she won't. Tell her that the girls are going to be exposed to a lot of different ideas and she should not get upset when she hears all kinds of ideas from them, that they will try out all kinds of things and, when they're older, they'll make their own decisions.<<<

This is good. My Mom's beliefs are deeply rooted, and she also appreciates that I understand her so well because neither my brother nor my father believe as she does, and I've always been her kind-hearted and understanding listener in the family. She also knows that my husband's family is pretty brash, vocal, and liberal.

>>>She probably is thinking, "Oh no - it is time, if they don't get the christianity now, they might be lost forever." Reassure her that you're going to encourage them to think for themselves and that includes learning about Christianity along with other points of view.<<<

That's a helpful way of saying it. I've often been at a loss of how to approach it, and I often side-step the conversation by just nodding in agreement to what she is saying and then changing the subject. She has never pressed any of the religious principals she feels strongly about on us, until that one conversation I mentioned. She is also convinced that the predictions of the Book of Revelations are starting to occur, and believes so strongly that my children must be saved in order to go to Heaven. While I do not agree with her perspective on this, I feel strongly about not being rude and not setting up an environment here where she feels terribly conflicted.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Pam.

kristi_beguin

>>>If a four year old can't be coached to be courteous, maybe she shouldn't be alone with the grandmother.<<<

I think she can be coached, I just want to do so in a way that doesn't encourage it more...that's the tricky part for me.

>>>Maybe you could just say "Grandma loves Jesus so don't say anything bad about Jesus." My kids were aware of those things in terms of favorite TV shows or toys. Barbies or Ninja Turtles or Pokemon. They knew not to razz or shame another person for an interest. Maybe if it's treated as a "favorite thing" or an attachment, rather than a cosmic, historical, socio-political thing, it will be easier to talk with the kid about it.<<<

And yes, somehow I need to figure out how to do that with her. I think Nena gets it, so maybe that will help--so they can't team up on the anti-Jesus boat. That helps, though, thinking of it in terms of TV and toys...maybe if I mention it's like Hannah Montana for Grandma she'll understand what I mean. :)

Joanna

That helps, though, thinking of it in terms of TV and toys...maybe if I mention it's like Hannah Montana for Grandma she'll understand what I mean. :)
>

I would be very careful in how to express this. Having her say, "Mommy thinks Hannah Montana is just as cool as God" might not go over well.
I think talking to your older one was good and might be fine to leave at that. See if any other issues come up before saying anything to the younger one. It might have been a one time thing.

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-She is also convinced that the predictions of the Book of
Revelations are starting to occur, and believes so strongly that my
children must be saved in order to go to Heaven. While I do not agree
with her perspective on this, I feel strongly about not being rude and
not setting up an environment here where she feels terribly
conflicted. -=-

Would she feel better if the girls were baptized? (Assuming they
aren't yet.)

I figure baptism is just water, for non-believers. But if it makes
their grandmother sleep better and look forward to being with her
granddaughters in heaven, maybe it's worth doing that for her.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Claire

Kristi_beguin <foehn_jye@...> wrote:
>
> > My husband and I are non-religious, and we do not often discuss religious
> > ideas or principals in our house. My Mother asked me years ago if it was
> > okay for her to give them books, music, or DVDs of Christian perspective,
> > and I said it was fine.>>>>>>


This to me is the first sticking point. As an atheist, I would not like my mother to play religious music/read religious books to my kids. No way. Especially not very young kids. Later, if they're interested, I would be happy to strew great literature, art and music from all the world's religious traditions. But while they are young, I would not like other people's beliefs to be presented to them as though those beliefs were the norm. In the same way that a respectful space is made for Grandma's beliefs, a respectful space should also be made for your family's non-belief. To me the best solution is Grandma being with her grandkids each Friday without bringing religion into it.

Kristi wrote:
> > My Mom confronted me about it, and told me that while it's none of her
> > business how we choose to raise our kids, that if I am going to teach my
> > children about God, I better start doing it now because they are obviously
> > being influenced somewhere about it, and not in a good way.
> >
> > I respectfully side-stepped the conversation, and forgot about it until
> > today.


I don't think side-stepping the issue is working. In a kind, gentle way, I think you should explain to your mum how you plan to approach the topic of religion with your children. In your desire not to offend, you have inadvertently allowed a confusing situation for your kids to arise because they are hearing conflicting views at home and at Grandma's. I think the onus is on your mum to not promote her religious beliefs, just as it is on you to respect her right to those beliefs and encourage your kids to be respectful also. This will be made a lot easier for your kids if Grandma does not bring religion into their time together.

Claire
Melbourne, Australia
Kids - Ashlin,5 and Eden,3

Sandra Dodd

-=- But while they are young, I would not like other people's beliefs
to be presented to them as though those beliefs were the norm.-=-

But you're presenting atheism as though it is "the norm"?

-=- In the same way that a respectful space is made for Grandma's
beliefs, a respectful space should also be made for your family's non-
belief. To me the best solution is Grandma being with her grandkids
each Friday without bringing religion into it.-=-

It's not equal, though. Atheists aren't afraid anyone's going to
hell; they're pretty sure they aren't. No reason to proselytize that.
The grandmother DID ask. She didn't have to ask.


-=-I think the onus is on your mum to not promote her religious
beliefs, -=-

Religious people don't think of it as having "religious beliefs,"
generally speaking. Not Christians, anyway. They see it as knowing
the truth.

Atheists do that too. I really do NOT like it when Christians say
that atheism is just another religion, and that science is just
another religion where people have faith in science. So it's a
problem when some atheists do seem to treat it as a religion.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

When I split from my parents' religion, one of the things I decided
after I had my child is that I wouldn't try to limit him from deciding
for himself what he believes. Our influence is very large on his
landscape right now. We're making an impression on him as it is. And
even though any contact with my family means contact with their
religious ideas and their feelings that it's the truth, that
impression will probably not be as big as ours unless they impress him
differently than they have in the past. The grandmother the OP has
talked about sounds very sweet and open compared to my folks. I'd love
to have that kind of interaction between Karl and his grandparents.

~Katherine






On 9/8/10, Claire <claire.horsley08@...> wrote:
>
>
> Kristi_beguin <foehn_jye@...> wrote:
>>
>> > My husband and I are non-religious, and we do not often discuss
>> > religious
>> > ideas or principals in our house. My Mother asked me years ago if it was
>> > okay for her to give them books, music, or DVDs of Christian
>> > perspective,
>> > and I said it was fine.>>>>>>
>
>
> This to me is the first sticking point. As an atheist, I would not like my
> mother to play religious music/read religious books to my kids. No way.
> Especially not very young kids. Later, if they're interested, I would be
> happy to strew great literature, art and music from all the world's
> religious traditions. But while they are young, I would not like other
> people's beliefs to be presented to them as though those beliefs were the
> norm. In the same way that a respectful space is made for Grandma's beliefs,
> a respectful space should also be made for your family's non-belief. To me
> the best solution is Grandma being with her grandkids each Friday without
> bringing religion into it.
>
> Kristi wrote:
>> > My Mom confronted me about it, and told me that while it's none of her
>> > business how we choose to raise our kids, that if I am going to teach my
>> > children about God, I better start doing it now because they are
>> > obviously
>> > being influenced somewhere about it, and not in a good way.
>> >
>> > I respectfully side-stepped the conversation, and forgot about it until
>> > today.
>
>
> I don't think side-stepping the issue is working. In a kind, gentle way, I
> think you should explain to your mum how you plan to approach the topic of
> religion with your children. In your desire not to offend, you have
> inadvertently allowed a confusing situation for your kids to arise because
> they are hearing conflicting views at home and at Grandma's. I think the
> onus is on your mum to not promote her religious beliefs, just as it is on
> you to respect her right to those beliefs and encourage your kids to be
> respectful also. This will be made a lot easier for your kids if Grandma
> does not bring religion into their time together.
>
> Claire
> Melbourne, Australia
> Kids - Ashlin,5 and Eden,3
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

kristi_beguin

>>>As an atheist, I would not like my mother to play religious music/read religious books to my kids. No way. Especially not very young kids.<<<

But they are young, and music is music, and books are books. While I understand that she has an ulterior motive, I have no real need to crush my Mother's hope that they will become born-again, and go to heaven. She truly enjoys and adores her grandkids. She has gone WAY beyond what I had ever expected in trying to understand and follow our lifestyle while she is with them. Her help is necessary because I have to work. Her time with my kids is free.

May I ask why you so strongly feel that you would not allow your kids to be exposed to songs or books that are of a religious nature?

>>>I don't think side-stepping the issue is working.<<<

It may not be "working" in that my kids have made statements about God that have offended my Mom, but it's important for me to not shake up my Mom's world. I completely and thoroughly understand how she sees the world, and she truly comes from a place of kindness, sweetness, and love.

>>>I think the onus is on your mum to not promote her religious beliefs, just as it is on you to respect her right to those beliefs and encourage your kids to be respectful also.<<<

But my Mom's beliefs are everything that she is...it is her all. Because of my love and appreciation for her, I cannot ask her to leave her religion at the door. It isn't possible. She is on the more delicate and sensitive side of the personality spectrum, and I truly do respect her beliefs. My motivation to not offend her does not stem from a need to tell my Mom what I believe, and that I don't want her to interfere...I could do that, but to me that would be disrespectful.

Claire

--- In [email protected], "kristi_beguin" <foehn_jye@...> wrote:
>

> May I ask why you so strongly feel that you would not allow your kids to be exposed to songs or books that are of a religious nature?>>



For me, it's about not foisting a certain philosophical position onto my children. In the same way that I don't force them to be vegetarians even though I am, I wouldn't want them to be presented with stories/songs as though these things were the truth. I don't present atheism as 'the truth' either, rather the whole field of religious belief or lack thereof is one we just haven't visited yet. Later, when they are better equipped to make up their own minds, I have absolutely no problem in facilitating their access to whatever religious material they are interested in. No problem. But to me this is a long way down the track. For now, I create an environment for my kids in which no one philosophical system is held to be the absolute truth, in fact an environment in which the whole idea of 'philosophical systems' doesn't come up. Rather, we have lots of stories, lots of imaginitive play, lots of fun.


Kristi wrote:
> It may not be "working" in that my kids have made statements about God that have offended my Mom, but it's important for me to not shake up my Mom's world. >>>


What I meant by 'not working' is that you haven't yet been able to clarify to your mum how you want to approach the whole idea of religion with your kids. So, how do you want to approach the whole idea of religion with your kids? :) No need to answer here, but you need to know in your own mind before you can then work out how to balance this with respect for your mum's beliefs. For me, for my own kids, the balance will always tip in favour of protecting my kids' ability to make independent choices about what to believe or not believe.

Claire

Sandra Dodd

-=-For me, it's about not foisting a certain philosophical position
onto my children.-=-

"Foisting...onto" is pretty harsh. If they're not to hear other
points of view, have you not foisted your beliefs onto them? You said
no, but then you used "foisted," so you seem emotional about it.

The original poster didn't seem to be that way about it.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Claire

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>

> "Foisting...onto" is pretty harsh. If they're not to hear other
> points of view, have you not foisted your beliefs onto them? You said
> no, but then you used "foisted," so you seem emotional about it.
>
> The original poster didn't seem to be that way about it.
>



I am sorry if what I said seems harsh - I do feel strongly about this issue, but did not intend to be strident about the whole thing. It's my opinion that religious ideas should not be presented as truth to kids who are too young to make up their own minds. The original poster did seem quite relaxed about her mum incorporating Christian songs and stories into her time with her grandkids, but then found herself in an awkward position when the kids reacted against Grandma's beliefs with ideas from their own, non-religious home. I just wanted to put forward that because my home is also non-religious, I wouldn't like others attempting to influence my kids towards a particular belief system.

Claire

Pam Sorooshian

On 9/8/2010 4:20 PM, Claire wrote:
>
> This to me is the first sticking point. As an atheist, I would not
> like my mother to play religious music/read religious books to my
> kids. No way. Especially not very young kids. Later, if they're
> interested, I would be happy to strew great literature, art and music
> from all the world's religious traditions. But while they are young, I
> would not like other people's beliefs to be presented to them as
> though those beliefs were the norm. In the same way that a respectful
> space is made for Grandma's beliefs, a respectful space should also be
> made for your family's non-belief. To me the best solution is Grandma
> being with her grandkids each Friday without bringing religion into it.

It never hurt my kids to spend time with their religious relatives or
friends. They went to church and found it sometimes interesting, mostly
boring. Roya even when to Vacation Bible School with her cousin one year.

The beliefs they were presented with ARE the norm, as compared to my
beliefs, for example. I think it is really easy to say, "Oh, well,
that's what Grandma believes," and move on. I used to sing Christian
songs with my kids, sometimes, songs I'd learned in Sunday School.
"Jesus loves the little children," or "All Things Bright and Beautiful."
A couple of hymns I remembered. It didn't turn them into Christians
anymore than singing old southern Civil War songs turned them pro-slavery.

Some people seem afraid of their kids being exposed to religious ideas.
The only thing I asked of my kids was not to fill out the visitor cards
if they went to church with someone. My mom's church would send someone
to leave a loaf of nice bread at the home of anybody filling out a
visitor's card. Once was fine - but after that it was not cool.

-pam

rosabw3

>
> But my Mom's beliefs are everything that she is...it is her all. Because of my love and appreciation for her, I cannot ask her to leave her religion at the door. It isn't possible. She is on the more delicate and sensitive side of the personality spectrum, and I truly do respect her beliefs. My motivation to not offend her does not stem from a need to tell my Mom what I believe, and that I don't want her to interfere...I could do that, but to me that would be disrespectful.
>

My mom is the same way. I think religion found her, she didn't go seeking it. She is the most gentle woman I have ever known.
She raised you, and your beliefs are what they are. I wouldn't worry about her affecting her grandkids any differently. Her gentility, her example, will affect her grandchildren far more than anything. It sounds like you all have a great love for each other, and religion or not, that's what it's all about.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 9, 2010, at 3:58 AM, Claire wrote:

> It's my opinion that religious ideas should not be presented as
> truth to kids who are too young to make up their own minds

Why do you fear a religious person's truth will be stronger than the
truth in your home?

Why do you think your kids will accept a grandmother's truth as
ultimate truth without question? Why do you think your kids wouldn't
come and talk about it with you?

That's exactly what many fundamentalists fear when they ban Harry
Potter and fairies and any discussion of magic. They fear those ideas
are so powerful -- because of Satan's backing -- that those ideas will
overwhelm their own. And your fearful protective reactions are just
the same.

If your kids are awash in ideas and your fear radar goes up at certain
ideas, it's likely they'll catch that and pay more attention to those
ideas!

It's likely your kids will try on many ideas that you don't agree
with. It's part of figuring out the world. But if you react negatively
to those ideas it's less likely they'll come to you to bounce ideas
off of.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"Claire" <claire.horsley08@...> wrote:
>It's my opinion that religious ideas should not be presented as truth to kids who are too young to make up their own minds.
***************

It seems these particular kids are hearing very different "truths" from different adults they trust, though. That's a more varied and nuanced picture of religious beliefs than most kids get.

>> my home is also non-religious, I wouldn't like others attempting to influence my kids towards a particular belief system.
*****************

What do you think would happen? What are you afraid might happen? Those aren't things to answer on the list, necessarily, but to think about. How badly would you be hurt if one of your kids "got religion" as the saying goes?

My stepson is an athiest. Many people have tried to influence him towards other beliefs over the years - Christianity and other religions. He's still an athiest ;)

---Meredith

Claire

If only the OP's mother could show the same equanimity towards non-belief as is being advocated here for religious beliefs! I very much understand and appreciate the comments about not being fearful of kids coming across religious ideas. I hold my kids, and the unschooling principles that guide our lives, far dearer than atheism or any other 'ism'. I have no fear that religious ideas will somehow corrupt them. Our relationship comes first, and the world is big and swirling with lots of ideas.

However, the whole situation in the original post arose, in my opinion, because the OP's mother is actively promoting her personal convictions to her grandkids. What if every Friday Grandma made comments about how wonderful school is and how you must go to school to get anywhere in life? It may not make the kids want to go to school, but it creates unnecessary confusion and conflict. I don't know what the solution to the OP's situation is, because she said that her mum couldn't leave religion out of her time with her grangkids, but if it was me, I'd be asking my mum, in as gentle a way as I could, to just have fun and play and not bring religion into it.

Claire

kristi_beguin

"Claire" <claire.horsley08@> wrote:
>>>It's my opinion that religious ideas should not be presented as truth to kids who are too young to make up their own minds.<<<

"Meredith" wrote:
>>>It seems these particular kids are hearing very different "truths" from different adults they trust, though. That's a more varied and nuanced picture of religious beliefs than most kids get.<<<

And something to ponder further, considering ages of 8 and 4, do kids take things they hear in books about Noah's ark vs. books where a bear comes over to play as "truth"? as in a truth they will follow for years to come?

In the example that I've provided, I said that my Mom is not sitting them down, reading the Bible to them, and then saying that this is the way things are--the Truth--as Claire seems to be implying. And I'm not sitting them down and saying that we think there is no God, and therefore what we say is the Truth. Obviously they are being peppered with statements and opinions from my mom and us, but I don't know why they would take any of those things to be some truth about life in general.

As Meredith says, it's much more nuanced. Why would my 8 year old or my 4 year old think that the story of Noah's Ark is in any way different than the story of "The Bear Came Over to My House"?

However, I what I just discovered, and which makes the nuances even more interesting to me is that my Mom began complaining that she couldn't find her cell phone and was starting to fret about it, so in what can only be described as a habitual thing, my Mom said, "I believe I'll find my phone, in Jesus' name." It was not said to my daughters, it was said to herself, to Jesus. In that context, and in a non-vindictive way, my 8-year old tells her "Jesus is dead and he can't help you." This is what had my Mom so upset all weekend long. She was startled to hear this out of an innocent 8-year old's mouth.

Interestingly enough, it illustrates what I see as a pretty good awareness on the part of Nena, who must have heard other statements from my Mom like "Jesus died for our sins," which she often says in a prayer she repeats while driving. And dead people generally don't provide much physical help when looking for a lost cell phone.

Sandra Dodd

-=-If only the OP's mother could show the same equanimity towards non-
belief as is being advocated here for religious beliefs-=-

Are you really not understanding that for Christians they're not just
two equal items on the buffet of life?

If you really do believe that religion is bogus, then how could it
hurt your children to hear Bible stories or whatever? Christians
CANNOT show "equanimity towards non-belief."

We're not advocating for equanimity toward religious beliefs. We're
advocating "chill."

I think you're misunderstanding the original post, too, or
misinterpreting it. The problem wasn't the religious content, it was
a child insulting the grandmother without knowing she had.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 9, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Claire wrote:

> However, the whole situation in the original post arose, in my
> opinion, because the OP's mother is actively promoting her personal
> convictions to her grandkids.

And it could be you're more fearful of religion than you think. You've
distilled what sounds like a Grandmother who is working hard to be
respectful of unschooling despite being authoritarian when she raised
her kids and of her daughter's beliefs into someone who is foisting
religion onto the kids.

You might want to reread the original post without the filtering
glasses and think about how you got the above from what was written
below.


> My Mother is a very devout Christian who has been so willing to
> learn about how we are raising our children. She cares for my
> daughters every Friday, and I know this is the biggest challenge of
> her week. She is going very much outside her comfort zone (previous
> authoritative, disciplinarian methods of child-rearing) to learn
> about unschooling and responding without punishing. But she is doing
> so graciously and respectfully, and I absolutely feel thankful for
> her willingness to do so and for her desire to help me by being with
> my girls one day a week while we work. She thoroughly supports our
> unschooling choice, and that alone is priceless.
>
> My husband and I are non-religious, and we do not often discuss
> religious ideas or principals in our house. My Mother asked me years
> ago if it was okay for her to give them books, music, or DVDs of
> Christian perspective, and I said it was fine. I have not wanted to
> offend her desire to sing songs with them, read to them, etc. and up
> until now, they never had issue with it. I was raised by her, and so
> I have a pretty good idea of how she interacts with them with
> regards to reading, singing, and the sort. Mostly she just plays
> with my girls--they play games, they run around, they sing songs,
> they go to the park, they go out to eat. She's not doing Bible
> study, or Sunday-school type stuff at all, mostly singing Christian
> songs and listening to CDs in the car.
>
> Recently, Nena (age 8) told me that she was tired of listening to
> the few bible song CDs my Mom plays while they are driving. I
> suggested she ask her Grandma if she would be willing to play some
> of the other CDs that Nena enjoys, and so she did, and Grandma was
> okay with it.
>
> As an aside, my husband is a professional drummer and plays in a
> variety of bands and genres, but most recently was playing in a
> death metal band. My kids love the music, and actually wrote their
> own lyrics to the death metal music, and created their own dance
> routines, which were really good. My husband listens to a lot of
> different kinds of music, including death metal, punk rock, thrash,
> and many other genres, some of which has lyrics that I am certain my
> daughters have picked out, such as Slayer's "God hates us all."
>
> Anyway, when Nena told her Dad about telling Grandma that she wanted
> to listen more to her music and not the Bible music, my husband made
> some comments about God and not really believing in religion, etc.
> They weren't particularly striking to me, but apparently they were
> to Signe, who is 4. The next time Signe saw Grandma, and Grandma
> asked if they wanted to listen to the Bible songs, Signe said, "You
> know, God isn't real."
>
> My Mom confronted me about it, and told me that while it's none of
> her business how we choose to raise our kids, that if I am going to
> teach my children about God, I better start doing it now because
> they are obviously being influenced somewhere about it, and not in a
> good way.
>
> I respectfully side-stepped the conversation, and forgot about it
> until today. She had watched my girls Friday, and apparently they
> had made several comments to her about God and other controversial
> topics such as ghosts, witches, and Halloween. My Mom was notably
> upset, and took several days to mull it over before bringing it up
> with me today.
>
> So...basically, I would like to bring up the subject with my girls
> on how we can be kind and respectful to Grandma about her beliefs,
> but I would like to do so in a way that discourages them from
> further upsetting their Grandma. With Signe, almost any discussion
> of something I don't want her to do will lead to her doing it more,
> which may be a developmental stage, but I've noticed it quite a bit
> in the past couple months. With Nena, the actual discussion of a
> controversial topic will cause her to dismiss it and not want to
> discuss it at all.
>
> Any ideas on how I can approach this subject/concept with my two
> girls? I'm feeling like I need some help with this one.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> Kristi

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***To me the best solution is Grandma being with her grandkids each Friday
without bringing religion into it.***

I don't agree. My own parents are very very religious. I cannot imagine asking
them to keep it to themselves while the grandkids are around. It is so much
apart of who they are as people. Plus I'm not afraid of religious beliefs. I
think it's good to know about the beliefs of others, especially their
grandparents or other relatives with whom they love and respect.

My kids have received all kinds of religious gifts from relatives. Some they
liked more than others. One of their most favorite books were very tiny little
books that had thankful prayers in them. Both of my kids loved those little
books. Neither are fans of religious jewelry, but both have received such items
and they put them in jewelry boxes where they have remained.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***I suggested she ask her Grandma if she would be willing to play some of the
other CDs that Nena enjoys, and so she did, and Grandma was okay with it.

As an aside, my husband is a professional drummer and plays in a variety of
bands and genres, but most recently was playing in a death metal band. My kids
love the music, ***

What about such bands as Flyleaf? Flyleaf is a wonderful band! There are
plenty of Christian bands that are actually very good, not like the contemporary
stuff that was around when I was a kid. Grandma may not like the music itself,
but she might like the fact that the lyrics are Christian based. She may be
open to exploring it with her grandkids.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***I don't know what the solution to the OP's situation is, because she said
that her mum couldn't leave religion out of her time with her grangkids, but if
it was me, I'd be asking my mum, in as gentle a way as I could, to just have fun
and play and not bring religion into it.***

Spoken by a true atheist ;)

The thing about that, is that people who are very religious incorporate it into
every aspect of their lives, it is a part of that person. It would be
impossible to separate religion from daily interactions of any kind, for someone
like this grandma. My guess is that she probably has many CD's of religious
music and maybe a handful of secular, probably has several versions of the bible
sitting about in her house, crosses as decorations, and religious sayings on
refrigerator magnets. Probably, most of her children's books are religious and
she might even own all the Veggie Tales productions.

One day, if one of those grandkids ever does become a Christian, they'll have a
good companion!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>> One day, if one of those grandkids ever does become a Christian, they'll have a good companion!<<<

I consider my devoutly Christian grandmother to have been one of my
very best friends ever, even though I no longer consider myself part
of the Christian faith. She was just that sweet and nonjudgmental of
everyone.

A personal aside: Today it occurred to me that had my folks avoided
anxiously asking me over and over again if I was saved or not, I
probably wouldn't have questioned it. I would have simply assumed I am
a Christian and not investigated the idea. But since it was put to me
so often I began to take the question seriously and eventually delved
into the matter to find out.

How ironic the impetus for my clarity is for my parents ... I won't
mention it to them.

The same thing can happen with kids who are expected to be atheists
and not stray into religious thinking patterns lest they lose their
atheist label. I grew up with some of them.

Freedom of choice and diversity is a good thing imo. It's one of the
reasons I chose to try out the Unitarian Universalist church, which is
mostly secular humanist with a good smattering of Christian
Universalists to boot in my region. ;) It's a very apt cultural mix in
these parts.

~Katherine