Emily S

I am trying to figure out the reasons behind something my daughter is doing and I'm hoping someone will have some insight.

She is 4.5 and we go through the following scenario multiple times a day:

I suggest something like if she would like to go outside (it could be ANY suggestion) and she will loudly proclaim NO! and fold her arms and stick her nose up in the air and turn around.

Or I will offer her something like a glass of water and she will give me the same response.

I am left completely puzzled and tell her "No thank you works just fine." It's really dramatic, as if I am *telling* her to do something just awful instead of making a nice suggestion that she is completely free to turn down or giving her something she is completely free not to take.


Another related thing she is doing is dramatically getting quite upset over things that really only require a simple request to get fixed. Like this evening she asked me to pour her some rice milk. When I handed her the cup she threw herself on the floor and yelled "That's not enough!" Um, ok....... how about mom can you please pour me some more? And I'm more than happy to do that!


Emily

wtexans

"It's really dramatic" and "dramatically getting quite upset" are both phrases that, to me, are in the same vein as "you're making a mountain out of a molehill" or "you're blowing this way out of proportion". It's hard to see something from someone else's perspective if you have a negative slant to how you're viewing their actions and reactions.


===I suggest something like if she would like to go outside (it could be ANY suggestion) and she will loudly proclaim NO! and fold her arms and stick her nose up in the air and turn around.===

When you make those type of suggestions, is she already doing something or are you making suggestions in response to her telling you she's bored or asking if you'll play with her?

What I used to do with my son (sometimes still do) was to say, "I'm going out back to swing. When you get done with what you're doing or if you want to take a break, you're welcome to join me." Sometimes he just wasn't in a place where he could, or wanted to, give me a "yes" or "no" answer at that moment -- me going ahead and making the choice and then inviting him to join in if he wanted to gave him the chance to get there on his own terms.


===Or I will offer her something like a glass of water and she will give me the same response.===

Don't handle it as an offer, just do it for her. Every morning after my son wakes up, I take a glass of water to his room. When I take him food to eat throughout the day, if his glass is empty or nearly empty, I'll take it and fill it up for him.

If you do the same thing for your daughter and she gets mad at you for it, you could set the glass out of her way but somewhere where it'll be easy to point it out to her when she tells you she's thirsty.


===I am left completely puzzled and tell her "No thank you works just fine.===

When I'm feeling unhappy or irritable, the last thing I want is someone telling me to not be cranky or rude!

If you're puzzled by her reaction, maybe it would help to simply reply "okay" and, depending on her personality, let her have some time alone or ask if she'd like to snuggle up with you to watch tv or read. She'll be more inclined to open up to you if your words and body language express compassion.


===When I handed her the cup she threw herself on the floor and yelled "That's not enough!" Um, ok....... how about mom can you please pour me some more?===

Is that how you responded to her, "how about, mom can you please pour me some more?"??? That response is about what *you're* feeling, not about what *she's* feeling.

You could have poured her a HUGE glass of milk. You could have poured her two glasses of milk. You could have asked her if she would like to help you pour the milk so she could show you the amount she'd like. All of those things could have been done nicely and cheerfully.


Take the focus off how she "should" act, so that it'll be easier to focus on if there's something else going on. If it's something more than being tired or hungry (easily fixed!), you'll have a better chance of figuring out what it is if you're not thinking in terms of "dramatic" or "not polite".


Glenda

Sandra Dodd

-=-===When I handed her the cup she threw herself on the floor and
yelled "That's not enough!" Um, ok....... how about mom can you please
pour me some more?===

-=-Is that how you responded to her, "how about, mom can you please
pour me some more?"??? That response is about what *you're* feeling,
not about what *she's* feeling.

-=-You could have poured her a HUGE glass of milk. You could have
poured her two glasses of milk. You could have asked her if she would
like to help you pour the milk so she could show you the amount she'd
like. All of those things could have been done nicely and cheerfully.-=-


There is a simple time-honored solution. "Say when."
Or "How much?" in advance. Let her point to the place on the cup
where she wants the milk. Maybe she wants a bigger cup, and can say
so in advance of any pouring.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Emily S

--- In [email protected], "wtexans" <wtexans@...> wrote:
===========
> "It's really dramatic" and "dramatically getting quite upset" are both phrases that, to me, are in the same vein as "you're making a mountain out of a molehill" or "you're blowing this way out of proportion". It's hard to see something from someone else's perspective if you have a negative slant to how you're viewing their actions and reactions.
=========

You're right, they do sound negative. Usually I think her dramatics are awesome and see her personality in a very positive light. Until she's being rude to me. And that's probably assigning negative intent too. I know she's not *trying* to be rude, but that is the way it comes across.

===========
> When you make those type of suggestions, is she already doing something or are you making suggestions in response to her telling you she's bored or asking if you'll play with her?
===============

It really seems like it can be ANY suggestion about anything. Not that she does it EVERY time, but when she does it seems really random. I will pay more attention though and see if I spot a pattern.

=============
> What I used to do with my son (sometimes still do) was to say, "I'm going out back to swing. When you get done with what you're doing or if you want to take a break, you're welcome to join me." Sometimes he just wasn't in a place where he could, or wanted to, give me a "yes" or "no" answer at that moment -- me going ahead and making the choice and then inviting him to join in if he wanted to gave him the chance to get there on his own terms.
=============

I do this and she still has the same reaction sometimes.


==============
> Don't handle it as an offer, just do it for her. Every morning after my son wakes up, I take a glass of water to his room. When I take him food to eat throughout the day, if his glass is empty or nearly empty, I'll take it and fill it up for him.
=================



Yes, this is what I meant when I said offer. I physically have it in my hands and am giving it to her.


=============
> ===I am left completely puzzled and tell her "No thank you works just fine.===
>
> When I'm feeling unhappy or irritable, the last thing I want is someone telling me to not be cranky or rude!
===================


Yah, I get that. I feel the same way. I want to give her words to say that are more appropriate (not make her say them, but just make her aware of them) and I don't really know how to do that in a kind, helpful way.


=====================
> ===When I handed her the cup she threw herself on the floor and yelled "That's not enough!" Um, ok....... how about mom can you please pour me some more?===
>
> Is that how you responded to her, "how about, mom can you please pour me some more?"??? That response is about what *you're* feeling, not about what *she's* feeling.
>
> You could have poured her a HUGE glass of milk. You could have poured her two glasses of milk. You could have asked her if she would like to help you pour the milk so she could show you the amount she'd like. All of those things could have been done nicely and cheerfully.
=======================


Yes, that is how I responded. She got up and repeated it after me and I did cheerfully continue to pour until she said stop. I will be honest and say that the times that she continues to act like that after I have suggested more appropriate wording, I don't act cheerful back. I get irritated. On one hand, I understand how it might be helpful to continue to do things cheerfully and kindly no matter how she is acting. I realize that I shouldn't let her mood dictate my response. On the other hand, no one else in the world is probably going to do that for her. How do I let her know that when she is rude when someone is helping her, people are going to be far less inclined to continue to help her, without being rude and mean myself?

==================
> Take the focus off how she "should" act, so that it'll be easier to focus on if there's something else going on. If it's something more than being tired or hungry (easily fixed!), you'll have a better chance of figuring out what it is if you're not thinking in terms of "dramatic" or "not polite".
==================


Thank you, that's just the reminder I needed! When she does things like that, it just triggers this instant reaction in me and at that moment I'm not thinking one bit about *why* she is acting that way. I will try to keep that in mind today and see how things go!

Emily

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/27/2010 1:47 AM, wtexans wrote:
> "It's really dramatic" and "dramatically getting quite upset" are both
> phrases that, to me, are in the same vein as "you're making a mountain
> out of a molehill" or "you're blowing this way out of proportion".
> It's hard to see something from someone else's perspective if you have
> a negative slant to how you're viewing their actions and reactions.

This is true and something to work on.

I wanted to add, though, that we can often need reminding that a child's
brain is growing and developing and changing and that different parts of
the brain develop at different times. There are periods of awkwardness
in brain development just like there are in the rest of the body, and
disequilibrium in brain development can lead to some behaviors that do
seem to be "out of nowhere."

So - consider and try all the great advice you'll get here, but also be
very sweet and understanding to your daughter because it may be the
brain is going through a bit of a painful growth spurt - maybe in the
part of the brain that likes to be in control of things.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-You're right, they do sound negative. Usually I think her dramatics
are ...-=-

Point missed.
YOU called it "dramatic," and dramatic puts a negative judgment on
it. Rather than defending the word, people are suggesting that you
rephrase entirely so that you're looking at her without drama-colored
glasses.

-=- Until she's being rude to me. And that's probably assigning
negative intent too. ..-=-

Not "probably." And if she's consciously trying to communicate
frustration, it might be because she's feeling frustrated. So look
back a few steps at why she's frustrated, not at the way she's acting
after you've disregarded her needs.

-=-It really seems like it can be ANY suggestion about anything. -=-

Then stop making suggestions. Find a different way to communicate.

-=-Not that she does it EVERY time, but when she does it seems really
random. I will pay more attention though and see if I spot a pattern.-=-

If it's random, we can't possibly help you.
Try to spot patterns first and then ask for assistance! We can't
help you if all you tell us is "something's happening." But I'm
thinking now that she has a mom who wasn't paying attention before,
nor looking for patterns. (Not really trying to pick on you, just
putting the spotlight on what you just wrote and sent to the list.)

-= I want to give her words to say that are more appropriate -=-

Don't do it while she's in the frustrated moment. Maybe talk about it
later. Maybe a week later. Maybe do more modelling of the way you
want her to be, and accept that it can take years for kids to pick up
on modelling. (Not so many years if it's been since birth; more time
if the mom changes to a different way of speaking and acting.)

-=-When she does things like that, it just triggers this instant
reaction in me and at that moment I'm not thinking one bit about *why*
she is acting that way. I will try to keep that in mind today and see
how things go!-=-

Keep it mind not just today, but for the rest of your life.
Try these ideas for many days, different ways, rather than reporting
back after one day.

"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"Emily S" <saturnfire16@...> wrote:
>> It really seems like it can be ANY suggestion about anything.
>

Could it be that she'd rather do things for herself? My dd used to do something similar, around the same age, if I'd do something for her or even offer to do something for her that she wanted to be the one to do. She wanted a lot of independence and there I was, getting in her way by being helpful. How rude of me!

If was more helpful of me to offer her opportunities to do things and make the things she liked to do easier - like keep smaller pitchers of milk and juice for her to pour, make sure there were convenient step-stools, that sort of thing.

>> I want to give her words to say that are more appropriate (not make her say them, but just make her aware of them) and I don't really know how to do that in a kind, helpful way.
**************

Use lots of kind, helpful words yourself. If you're responding to her outbursts by being cross or snippy, that doesn't help her know what "grace under pressure" looks like. Something is stressing her a bit, and that's going to get in the way of being cool and calm in the moment.

You can try talking to her about how to ask politely outside of times when she's upset, look for stories or shows or movies where people are being polite to one another, but in the moment, its not helpful. In a way, its *you* making a mountain out of a molehill - she's acting like a young child and you're getting upset about it.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

otherstar

>>>Yes, that is how I responded. She got up and repeated it after me and I did cheerfully continue to pour until she said stop. I will be honest and say that the times that she continues to act like that after I have suggested more appropriate wording, I don't act cheerful back. I get irritated. On one hand, I understand how it might be helpful to continue to do things cheerfully and kindly no matter how she is acting. I realize that I shouldn't let her mood dictate my response. On the other hand, no one else in the world is probably going to do that for her. How do I let her know that when she is rude when someone is helping her, people are going to be far less inclined to continue to help her, without being rude and mean myself? <<<

We are talking about a 4.5 year old little girl right? I am pointing this out because I have 4 girls ranging in age from 18 months to 9 years. They have all had periods where that have had really big emotional responses. It is perfectly normal for little kids to have big responses to things that adults perceive as something small. Have you ever had a day where something little irritates you and you react rudely? As an adult, I can usually , but not always, stuff those feelings down. I don't think it is realistic for a 4.5 year old to be able to suppress her frustrations and reword things in the moment. If you continue to model "niceness" and consideration, kids will pick up on it. It may not happen tomorrow but it will eventually catch on.

Nobody else in the world does for my children what I do. As the mom, I want my children to feel safe expressing all of their emotions whether it is rude or not. My kids have picked up on being nice versus being rude from seeing how I interact with their dad. They see it when we go to the grocery store and talk to the check out person. They see it in all of our interactions with the rest of the world. I don't feel the need to let them know when they are in the middle of a moment of frustration. We usually talk about it after we have been out and have had an encounter with somebody that was really nice or was really rude.

To you or me, not having the right amount of liquid in a cup may not seem like a big deal. To a little kid that doesn't have a lot of experience with the world, it can be a huge deal. Not only does she have to rely on you to get her a drink but she has to rely on you to get her the right amount. Then, if you get her the wrong amount and she speaks up, you get mad and tell her what to say and how to act. To you, it may seem like an occasional suggestion. To her, it may feel like you are nitpicking everything she says and does. There is a possibility that she feels like your constant suggestions are nitpicking. She may have picked up on the habit of nitpicking from you so her "random drama" could be her mirroring your behavior. I am not trying to pick on you. I am just trying to offer other possibilities. Whenever I find myself noticing something about my girls' behavior, the first thing I do is check my own because I have a tendency to make small changes in my behavior or attitude and don't realize it until I see my girls mirroring it back to me.

Connie




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>I do this and she still has the same reaction sometimes.<<<

Yep. :)

>>>How do I let her know that when she is rude when someone is helping her, people are going to be far less inclined to continue to help her, without being rude and mean myself?<<<

If a person knows in advance that someone is always kind in the face
of negativity, then that person --who may or may not continue to be
rude--- can relax more.

I think there's a difference between politeness and kindness.

Politeness isn't actually the same thing as kindness. Some polite
people can be cruel with it (or even rude with it) and that could in
some cases be considered a fine art. It's also a fine art to be rude
yet kind with it. I just met a 70-something gal who is very
rough-mannered and says things like "shut-up" but the twist is she
isn't actually expecting anybody to shut up and is in fact encouraging
people to come out of their shells to join her in hilarity. She's
incredibly sweetheartedly humorous as she invites people to join in
and, as Glenda suggested about inviting her child to come swing if he
wants to (but with a very different tone and feel), the water is fine.
:)

It's also possible to be polite AND kind but it might not even be a
good idea to be that way all the time, no matter what.

One thing that's true about drama is that there's lots of power in it,
and people are drawn to that. Most of it hasn't got much to do with
kindness or peace, but there is that too as a possibility. A
super-powerful combo. I've seen it but haven't figured out how to pull
it off.

Maybe that's what your daughter is interested in. Or there might be
something else going on. I think your idea of watching the patterns to
see if/when rudeness occurs or gets more intense (or whatever else you
find to look for in patterns) could be very helpful to know.

~Katherine





On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Emily S <saturnfire16@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "wtexans" <wtexans@...> wrote:
> ===========
>> "It's really dramatic" and "dramatically getting quite upset" are both phrases that, to me, are in the same vein as "you're making a mountain out of a molehill" or "you're blowing this way out of proportion". It's hard to see something from someone else's perspective if you have a negative slant to how you're viewing their actions and reactions.
> =========
>
> You're right, they do sound negative. Usually I think her dramatics are awesome and see her personality in a very positive light. Until she's being rude to me. And that's probably assigning negative intent too. I know she's not *trying* to be rude, but that is the way it comes across.
>
> ===========
>> When you make those type of suggestions, is she already doing something or are you making suggestions in response to her telling you she's bored or asking if you'll play with her?
> ===============
>
> It really seems like it can be ANY suggestion about anything. Not that she does it EVERY time, but when she does it seems really random. I will pay more attention though and see if I spot a pattern.
>
> =============
>> What I used to do with my son (sometimes still do) was to say, "I'm going out back to swing. When you get done with what you're doing or if you want to take a break, you're welcome to join me." Sometimes he just wasn't in a place where he could, or wanted to, give me a "yes" or "no" answer at that moment -- me going ahead and making the choice and then inviting him to join in if he wanted to gave him the chance to get there on his own terms.
> =============
>
> I do this and she still has the same reaction sometimes.
>
>
> ==============
>> Don't handle it as an offer, just do it for her. Every morning after my son wakes up, I take a glass of water to his room. When I take him food to eat throughout the day, if his glass is empty or nearly empty, I'll take it and fill it up for him.
> =================
>
>
>
> Yes, this is what I meant when I said offer. I physically have it in my hands and am giving it to her.
>
>
> =============
>> ===I am left completely puzzled and tell her "No thank you works just fine.===
>>
>> When I'm feeling unhappy or irritable, the last thing I want is someone telling me to not be cranky or rude!
> ===================
>
>
> Yah, I get that. I feel the same way. I want to give her words to say that are more appropriate (not make her say them, but just make her aware of them) and I don't really know how to do that in a kind, helpful way.
>
>
> =====================
>> ===When I handed her the cup she threw herself on the floor and yelled "That's not enough!" Um, ok....... how about mom can you please pour me some more?===
>>
>> Is that how you responded to her, "how about, mom can you please pour me some more?"??? That response is about what *you're* feeling, not about what *she's* feeling.
>>
>> You could have poured her a HUGE glass of milk. You could have poured her two glasses of milk. You could have asked her if she would like to help you pour the milk so she could show you the amount she'd like. All of those things could have been done nicely and cheerfully.
> =======================
>
>
> Yes, that is how I responded. She got up and repeated it after me and I did cheerfully continue to pour until she said stop. I will be honest and say that the times that she continues to act like that after I have suggested more appropriate wording, I don't act cheerful back. I get irritated. On one hand, I understand how it might be helpful to continue to do things cheerfully and kindly no matter how she is acting. I realize that I shouldn't let her mood dictate my response. On the other hand, no one else in the world is probably going to do that for her. How do I let her know that when she is rude when someone is helping her, people are going to be far less inclined to continue to help her, without being rude and mean myself?
>
> ==================
>> Take the focus off how she "should" act, so that it'll be easier to focus on if there's something else going on. If it's something more than being tired or hungry (easily fixed!), you'll have a better chance of figuring out what it is if you're not thinking in terms of "dramatic" or "not polite".
> ==================
>
>
> Thank you, that's just the reminder I needed! When she does things like that, it just triggers this instant reaction in me and at that moment I'm not thinking one bit about *why* she is acting that way. I will try to keep that in mind today and see how things go!
>
> Emily
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/27/2010 10:47 AM, otherstar wrote:
> To you or me, not having the right amount of liquid in a cup may not
> seem like a big deal.

I get cranky when I order a cup of coffee and they only give me 2/3 of a
cup - at Starbucks where I'm paying a small fortune for it and don't get
refills. I know how to be polite when I hand it back and ask them to
fill it the rest of the way, but I've had 52 more years to work on that
than this little girl has had.

-pam

Robin Bentley

>>>> How do I let her know that when she is rude when someone is
>>>> helping her, people are going to be far less inclined to continue
>>>> to help her, without being rude and mean myself?<<<

I don't think being rude and mean to a 4.5 year old helps her trust
you to help her when *she's* being rude (or cranky or frustrated). And
why would you want to be rude and mean to her? The only thing she
might learn is her mom can't be any more mature than she is.

I know I have had the same kind reaction myself (and sometimes still
do, but I can stop myself now). For me, it was how I was treated when
I was little and all riled up. It was *not* okay to be rude or angry
in my house. So, the indignation my parents showed can automatically
come out of me. I've had to be really conscious of that tendency.

Another thing: some people help others when their help isn't wanted or
asked for. Consequently, they're offended if their help isn't welcome,
especially if the annoyed person is a kid. But kids, like adults,
don't always want to have assumptions made about their need for help.

> I think there's a difference between politeness and kindness.

I think Katherine's right about that. People can be incredibly mean
under the guise of politeness. It's a sneaky way to get at someone,
while appearing completely appropriate.

It would be a kindness to coach your daughter through this. You may be
able to suss out her feelings through casual talk or when you cuddle
up for a story. You could help her see, when she's ready, that there
are better ways to respond to others and to communicate her needs. You
do a kindness to her to model kind behavior. You're her mom. She looks
to you for guidance, whether you know it (or like it) or not.

Robin B.

>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think there's a difference between politeness and kindness.-=-

I was thinking "courtesy and compassion." There are differences in
all those things, but it's not a dichotomy, with learned etiquette on
one end and heartfelt behavior on the other. Someone can say "thank
you" and really mean it. Someone can shake hands in an extremely warm
and communicative way. So let's please not be dividing the world
into differences that could glorify the one and condemn the other.

True, one can say "I was just being polite." It's a little harder to
huff up and say "I was just being kind."

It was maybe ten minutes ago that I said to Holly, "I was trying to be
helpful, not trying to make you go crazy." I was taking my chances.
She laughed. She could about as easily have gone more crazy. We're
moving furniture, helping her set up her room (a.k.a. "Kirby's old
room") the way she wants it. It's not going all that well. :-)

She wasn't being any of those things above: polite, kind, courteous
or compassionate. Marty was doing most of the work, and she was on
the edge of loosing it. Now she's in the shower singing, and is about
to go out and eat with friends, leaving us to do the next phase while
she's gone. I was able to be compassionate and almost courteous,
partly because I have been that way, where Keith and someone(s) are
really trying to do what I want done, and I am changing my mind while
the furniture is in the air. eeep


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>I was thinking "courtesy and compassion." There are differences in all those things, but it's not a dichotomy ... <<<

True. What I was pointing out is an unacknowledged dichotomy in
wanting a child to appear polite and to display kindness without the
messy process of learning what's valuable about either. As well as,
without experiencing what kindness and courtesy looks and feels like
when it's in response to discourtesy and thoughtlessness or
unkindness.

~Katherine





On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 4:24 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I think there's a difference between politeness and kindness.-=-
>
> I was thinking "courtesy and compassion." There are differences in
> all those things, but it's not a dichotomy, with learned etiquette on
> one end and heartfelt behavior on the other. Someone can say "thank
> you" and really mean it. Someone can shake hands in an extremely warm
> and communicative way. So let's please not be dividing the world
> into differences that could glorify the one and condemn the other.
>
> True, one can say "I was just being polite." It's a little harder to
> huff up and say "I was just being kind."
>
> It was maybe ten minutes ago that I said to Holly, "I was trying to be
> helpful, not trying to make you go crazy." I was taking my chances.
> She laughed. She could about as easily have gone more crazy. We're
> moving furniture, helping her set up her room (a.k.a. "Kirby's old
> room") the way she wants it. It's not going all that well. :-)
>
> She wasn't being any of those things above: polite, kind, courteous
> or compassionate. Marty was doing most of the work, and she was on
> the edge of loosing it. Now she's in the shower singing, and is about
> to go out and eat with friends, leaving us to do the next phase while
> she's gone. I was able to be compassionate and almost courteous,
> partly because I have been that way, where Keith and someone(s) are
> really trying to do what I want done, and I am changing my mind while
> the furniture is in the air. eeep
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Emily S

I won't respond to everyone's suggestions individually, but thank you! They were all helpful in a variety of ways.

I did want to respond to this that Sandra said:

>
> Then stop making suggestions. Find a different way to communicate.
>

When I first read this I thought I don't know how else to communicate other than telling her what to do! What is she talking about?! I mean, if I have an idea I can either just tell her to do it OR suggest it and she's free to turn it down. What else is there?

Then I did this:


>
> "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
>


And yesterday I focused on being really patient and aware and engaged. I looked for patterns, but didn't find any because she only had that NO! reaction I originally posted about one time. Go figure! lol So, that could well be the pattern- when I'm tired, disengaged and not being aware enough she acts like that. duh!


Anyway, this morning she yelled at her sister "Get off my chair" to which I have responded in the past with giving her more appropriate words to use like "please get off" while I am moving to move her sister. This time I didn't say anything to her, instead I spoke to her sister and said "Ezabella is trying to say Liliana please move," and then helped Liliana move.

Also, when her sister was in front of the tv and Ezabella yelled "MOVE!" I didn't say anything to her, I just spoke to Liliana and said "Ezabella is asking you to move please" and then helped her move.

What do you think? It almost feels passive agressive, but I really don't mean it that way. I have done this with both my kids when they were one and two years old because it's like giving them the words when they don't have the words yet. I felt like my 4 year old SHOULD have the words, but obviously she doesn't always. So I'm trying to use it to partner with her and be her voice when she is having a hard time expressing things politely. I hope it comes across that way to her.

Emily

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/28/2010 10:24 AM, Emily S wrote:
> What do you think? It almost feels passive agressive,

Better. But yeah - you're being manipulative and I doubt she'll react
well to that. Don't try to train her. Ask yourself, am I saying or doing
this to try to train her or because it is honest and kind and sensible
right now in this minute.

What I think you probably need is to think more from your daughter's
point of view. Ask yourself what SHE is probably thinking at the moment
she's yelling.

What did you think she would think when you repeated her request for
her sister to move, but more nicely?

Do you think she was thinking, "Oh THAT's nicer, I should ask that way
next time?" Really?

If anything, she was probably thinking, "Mommy is making fun of me," or
"Mommy doesn't get how in the way my little sister is," or "Mommy
doesn't care that I'm angry, she wants me to stifle it." (Okay - not in
those words - in more raw and harsh words, probably.)

Read - "How to Talk So Your Child will Listen and HOw to Listen So Your
Child will Talk." It isn't the perfect book - but it might help you get
a sense of what a child's internal response might be to typical
parenting, as opposed to what you might be imagining or wishing the
child's thoughts and feelings are.


-pam

Jenny Cyphers

***As well as,
without experiencing what kindness and courtesy looks and feels like
when it's in response to discourtesy and thoughtlessness or
unkindness.***

That would be manipulation! My neighbor kids practice that all the time, in
very nicey nice ways! So far, the only kids that Margaux has played with that
haven't been that way are other unschooled kids. That doesn't mean those kids
don't exist, just not in MY neighborhood apparently! Margaux is learning how to
be kind or at least walk away in the face of that sort of manipulation. She
feels it deeply, but sometimes it sidelines her and she gets angry without
really being able to process WHY she is angry. A good response that works well
in lots of situations that evoke a strong emotional response without
understanding why is "I don't like that!", and then walking away until you can
figure out why it is you don't like that. Margaux usually ads, "you're mean and
I don't want to play with you anymore!", which is a huge step better than what
she used to do, "You're f...ing rude and you're not my friend anymore, I hate
you!"

Using the "F" word got Margaux banned from playing with some of those kids,
which was a bit of a blessing in disguise. A month or so later though, on her
own volition, she went over and apologized for using curse words and had a
lovely rationale behind her whole thought process! She decided that since she'd
like to play with those kids SOMEtimes, then she should apologize, even if she
felt like using curse words wasn't really a bad thing, and even IF what they
were doing was far worse than using curse words. Now when she slips up and uses
a curse word, the kids' immediate response is, "you're going to hell, and I'm
going to go tell on you!", to which Margaux says, "fine, go tell, and maybe I'll
mention what you just did/said when your mom comes over, and by the way, you
don't go to hell for saying curse words."





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-
Do you think she was thinking, "Oh THAT's nicer, I should ask that way
next time?" Really?

-=-If anything, she was probably thinking, "Mommy is making fun of
me," or
"Mommy doesn't get how in the way my little sister is," or "Mommy
doesn't care that I'm angry, she wants me to stifle it." (Okay - not in
those words - in more raw and harsh words, probably.)-=-

Sometimes I've done something almost just like that, though, with the
thought of saving face for my team-member. Especially when Kirby was
little and would start to arch and cry if I picked him up from a
playsession, I might, while holding his arching crying body, say "I
think this means he had a really nice time!"

He got the idea that a nicer way to leave was to say "I had a nice
time."

I didn't care if it was somewhat manipulative. I wasn't concerning
myself with what he thought of it at the time. It was time to go, it
wasn't my house, maybe I had a baby in the car waiting, and I wanted
to reassure and thank the family that his crying seemed to be an
indication that he would rather stay than go. See ya Wednesday!

I've never been impressed when a parent shut down all the lives around
to allow a child to take as much time as he wanted to leave. Not when
it's my house, especially, and the fit is disturbing the peace. Not
that I think the fit is better in the car, but if the purpose of the
enactment is to get to stay, and the answer is no, especially when
it's no because the host family has something else to do, or perhaps
even is just tired of the kid because it's already been three or four
hours, the child should be taken away.

And it's also my experience that when the child IS away from the scene
of the wishing-it-were-different situation, the tears and fit start.
Like Homer with a donut, they'll see something else or get interested
in food, or fall asleep in the car.

-=-What I think you probably need is to think more from your daughter's
point of view. Ask yourself what SHE is probably thinking at the moment
she's yelling.

-=-What did you think she would think when you repeated her request for
her sister to move, but more nicely?-=-

When faced with a situation where my child's yelling is in the face or
space of another person, my first thought is to soothe and protect the
other child. And if the other child is also my child, for sure that
child has as much or more right to parental understanding as the
agressor does. BUT... better than everything above is for the mom to
find ways to avoid melt-downs, and that's what this list can help with
best.

Rather than discuss 100 scenarios of what happens AFTER the mom
neglects to prepare, we do better here to discuss how to prepare.
This isn't a list about training children. It's about living with
children in such ways that they are learning and feeling peaceful and
joyful.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***Anyway, this morning she yelled at her sister "Get off my chair" to which I
have responded in the past with giving her more appropriate words to use like
"please get off" while I am moving to move her sister. This time I didn't say
anything to her, instead I spoke to her sister and said "Ezabella is trying to
say Liliana please move," and then helped Liliana move.***

In that moment, I would've pulled up another chair and asked Ezabella if that
one would work for her, and if not, then I'd say, "here Liliana, Ezabella would
really like *her* chair, but I've got another chair for you to use", and then
I'd help her move.

***Also, when her sister was in front of the tv and Ezabella yelled "MOVE!" I
didn't say anything to her, I just spoke to Liliana and said "Ezabella is asking
you to move please" and then helped her move.***

If this happened at my house, I'd pause whatever is being watched, then help
everyone find places to be where everyone could see. If it was regular TV with
no pause, then I quickly find a way to shift everyone around. Ezabella was NOT
asking for her sister to move, so I wouldn't have phrased it that way, maybe I
would've said, "Ezabella can't see the TV from where she's chosen to sit, maybe
if you (Liliana) shift this way a bit and you (Ezabella) shift this way a bit,
then everyone can see from their chosen locations". That way, everyone is clear
that both parties could move to see, even Ezabella. Ezabella is, in a way,
expressing her power. She CAN get what she wants and you can help her do that,
but not at the expense of a younger sibling, because that has the huge potential
to backfire if the younger sibling decides to contest those demands.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

It looks to me like Margaux is figuring out how to be friends (and
even kind and courteous) in the face of rudeness and manipulation
meant to police her (lack of) certain very specific kinds of courtesy.
Even if her friends never get it, it's great to see how Margaux is
responding.

What *I* meant by

>>>As well as, without experiencing what kindness and courtesy looks and feels like when it's in response to discourtesy and thoughtlessness or unkindness.<<<

is that parents can see what a child is trying to do (ie., not wanting
to leave because it's wonderful to stay) and assist in some way that
voices or at least partly accomplishes when possible/feasible what the
child wants (say the child had a good time; or in my case last week,
suggest Karl and I go hang out at the playground since the kids had
left the playroom and the sitter wanted to go too).

I love seeing that Margaux is doing this kind of thing at a very young
age! That's exciting to me. I see Karl doing some of that too but he's
younger and is just now noticing some things about his
friends/relatives that conflict all kinds of ways.

~Katherine




On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
> ******
>
> That would be manipulation! My neighbor kids practice that all the time, in
> very nicey nice ways! So far, the only kids that Margaux has played with that
> haven't been that way are other unschooled kids. That doesn't mean those kids
> don't exist, just not in MY neighborhood apparently! Margaux is learning how to
> be kind or at least walk away in the face of that sort of manipulation. She
> feels it deeply, but sometimes it sidelines her and she gets angry without
> really being able to process WHY she is angry. A good response that works well
> in lots of situations that evoke a strong emotional response without
> understanding why is "I don't like that!", and then walking away until you can
> figure out why it is you don't like that. Margaux usually ads, "you're mean and
> I don't want to play with you anymore!", which is a huge step better than what
> she used to do, "You're f...ing rude and you're not my friend anymore, I hate
> you!"
>
> Using the "F" word got Margaux banned from playing with some of those kids,
> which was a bit of a blessing in disguise. A month or so later though, on her
> own volition, she went over and apologized for using curse words and had a
> lovely rationale behind her whole thought process! She decided that since she'd
> like to play with those kids SOMEtimes, then she should apologize, even if she
> felt like using curse words wasn't really a bad thing, and even IF what they
> were doing was far worse than using curse words. Now when she slips up and uses
> a curse word, the kids' immediate response is, "you're going to hell, and I'm
> going to go tell on you!", to which Margaux says, "fine, go tell, and maybe I'll
> mention what you just did/said when your mom comes over, and by the way, you
> don't go to hell for saying curse words."
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

One of Jenny's pieces of writing has been moved to a beautiful
location with a nice view here:
http://sandradodd.com/abundance

But the one below, I'd like to pick apart a bit.


-=-***Also, when her sister was in front of the tv and Ezabella yelled
"MOVE!" I
didn't say anything to her, I just spoke to Liliana and said "Ezabella
is asking
you to move please" and then helped her move.***

Jenny wrote:

-=-If this happened at my house, I'd pause whatever is being watched,
then help
everyone find places to be where everyone could see.-=-

I might pause it, but I would tell the kid who demanded "MOVE!" that
she needs to grow up, get a house and buy a TV if she wants to tell
someone else to MOVE. And if the kid were old enough, I might say
"But you'll probably be able to see, because nobody's going to visit
you if you treat them that way."

I wouldn't say it as a hateful threat, but in a humorous informational
way. Just as we had the deal for years that Holly could hit Marty on
her 18th birthday, but not before that. And Marty said for years that
he was not going to go to Holly's 18th birthday. It was a way to joke
about her frustration and his culpability.

Or maybe respond in the VERY same tone of voice "STAY THERE!" to the
kid who was told to move. If it shocks them both, they'll be thinking.

To act in any way as though it's peachy keen to say "MOVE!" to
someone, though, is aiding and abetting. If it's a two year old,
yeah--they're practicing talking. But with older kids, they're
making a bullyish power play. (Or they're tired or hungry or feeling
ignored, but if those are eliminated and if it's happening really
often toward a sibling, it's probably good not to help them prolong
their habitual behavior.

On the other hand, no one has ever been four years old longer than a
year.
On the other hand, there's no reason to cause a toddler sibling to
wait patiently a few years for an older child's desire to be pushy to
subside at geological speed.

Jenny wrote:
-=- If it was regular TV with
no pause, then I quickly find a way to shift everyone around. Ezabella
was NOT
asking for her sister to move, so I wouldn't have phrased it that way,
maybe I
would've said, "Ezabella can't see the TV from where she's chosen to
sit, maybe
if you (Liliana) shift this way a bit and you (Ezabella) shift this
way a bit,
then everyone can see from their chosen locations". -=-

Really? "Chosen locations"? They're trying to watch a show.

When that's happened at our house I was more likely to say, "Marty,
move back a little please. Kirby find another place to sit."

If neither complained, it was done. If either complained, then I was
dealing with that little aspect and not the whole larger house size
and relationship.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***Really? "Chosen locations"? They're trying to watch a show.***

Margaux has, on occasion, insisted on sitting in a specific location and
insisting everyone around her move so that she can see, when it would have been
much much easier to have chosen a better location to begin with. There have
been times that she has refused to move and the suggestion for people to shift
just a bit has been a much more peaceful solution than to force all to move,
including the one who chose the location in which she couldn't see. This was
when she was younger. Now that she is 8, she's much better about sitting in a
location that she can see AND not causing other people to move or put in a
position where they feel they must move so as to not listen to a screaming 4 or
5 yr old.

That is where I was coming from. If a kid is sitting on the couch and watching
TV and her little sister has decided to stand directly in front of the TV,
that's a different thing.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Emily S

> Better. But yeah - you're being manipulative and I doubt she'll react
> well to that. Don't try to train her. Ask yourself, am I saying or doing
> this to try to train her or because it is honest and kind and sensible
> right now in this minute.

I'm really thinking hard about you saying it's manipulative. If I was using it to make her start using certain words right now, that would be manipulative. But I really truly do want to be her partner in this! I felt like this was a way to help her get what she needs and let others know what she is trying to express and be her polite words when she is having a hard time finding them. I know I'm the one who used the term passive aggressive and I think she might feel it is if I use that tone of voice, so I'm not totally stuck on the idea. However, I'm hoping that if I do it in a way that lets her know I'm helping her get her needs met, it will help. I wasn't thinking of it as "training" her. I was thinking of it as being her words when she didn't have the words.

Manipulative is the parents who use sticker charts every time their kids is polite. Enough stickers and they get an icecream. Or the ones who refuse to hand them something and hold it inches out of reach and say "use your words," "what's the magic word?"




>
> What I think you probably need is to think more from your daughter's
> point of view. Ask yourself what SHE is probably thinking at the moment
> she's yelling.
>


I think she is probably using the only words she can come up with in that moment to express her feelings of frustration at the situation.



> What did you think she would think when you repeated her request for
> her sister to move, but more nicely?
>
> Do you think she was thinking, "Oh THAT's nicer, I should ask that way
> next time?" Really?


I was hoping that she would see that there is a way to get her needs met and express what she wanted AND be polite about it. I was hoping that I was modeling how to go about doing that. She's 4, so no, I didn't think that she would think about it in so many words.


>
> If anything, she was probably thinking, "Mommy is making fun of me," or
> "Mommy doesn't get how in the way my little sister is," or "Mommy
> doesn't care that I'm angry, she wants me to stifle it." (Okay - not in
> those words - in more raw and harsh words, probably.)


I can't imagine why she would be thinking any of those things. I didn't say it in a mocking voice. I obviously understood how her little sister was in the way because I made her move. I didn't say anything negative about her anger.


>
> Read - "How to Talk So Your Child will Listen and HOw to Listen So Your
> Child will Talk." It isn't the perfect book - but it might help you get
> a sense of what a child's internal response might be to typical
> parenting, as opposed to what you might be imagining or wishing the
> child's thoughts and feelings are.
>
>


I have read it and it's been a long time, but I remember it being full of lots of scripts. Those are helpful sometimes, but too often, for me, they can just get in the way of actually seeing my child and the situation and instead just falling back on the script.



Emily

Emily S

>
> To act in any way as though it's peachy keen to say "MOVE!" to
> someone, though, is aiding and abetting. If it's a two year old,
> yeah--they're practicing talking. But with older kids, they're
> making a bullyish power play. (Or they're tired or hungry or feeling
> ignored, but if those are eliminated and if it's happening really
> often toward a sibling, it's probably good not to help them prolong
> their habitual behavior.
>


Yes! See this is what I am trying to work out. I understand that she is 4 and has years left to get down social interactions, it doesn't have to be today. I understand that I need to be modeling politeness and that she will pick up a lot from that. I understand that she doesn't yet have much impulse control and all that brain development stuff. I get that. BUT at the same time, I feel like exactly what you said "To act in any way as though it's peachy keen to say "MOVE!" to
> someone, though, is aiding and abetting." So I want to HELP her LEARN how to interact with others.

I know I don't want to "help" her by using rewards and punishments. I want to do it in a way that she feels like I'm on her side. But when other kids are involved I need to be on their side too, recognizing that they don't want to be spoken to that way. And I don't want to be spoken to that way either.

Emily

Emily S

> That is where I was coming from. If a kid is sitting on the couch and watching
> TV and her little sister has decided to stand directly in front of the TV,
> that's a different thing.
>


This is more of the situation here. It's usually Ezabella who asks for the tv on and Liliana may or may not even be watching at that time. Then Liliana comes and stands right between Ezabella and the tv. I totally get why it irritates Ezabella and I'm quick to move Liliana as soon as I see her there or Ezabella points it out. The thing is, Liliana will often move with a simple "excuse me please" so it really doesn't require a "MOVE!" And if Ezabella's first request doesn't work, I help Liliana move.

Emily

Sandra Dodd

-=-felt like this was a way to help her get what she needs and let
others know what she is trying to express and be her polite words when
she is having a hard time finding them.-=-

But that might not be what she's trying to express. She might be
being NICER than she would like to be.

We don't know; we're not there.
If you guess at someone else's intent and new-improved wording, it
might be as wrong as could be. You might be speaking what you wish
she was trying to express, and not at all what she has already clearly
expressed.

-=-Manipulative is the parents who use sticker charts every time their
kids is polite. Enough stickers and they get an icecream. Or the ones
who refuse to hand them something and hold it inches out of reach and
say "use your words," "what's the magic word?" -=-

I'm not the one who said "manipulative." But there's a world of
manipulation beyond sticker charts and "please."

In one area you're not seeing directly, and in another you're defining
a term very narrowly.

-=-I think she is probably using the only words she can come up with
in that moment to express her feelings of frustration at the
situation. -=-

Then don't sweeten it up. Find ways to avoid the frustrating aspects
in advance.

-=- I didn't say it in a mocking voice. I obviously understood how her
little sister was in the way because I made her move-=-

We can't see or hear that from here. All we had were your words.
Please don't hold this down and make it all about your exact,
particular situation. Relax and let it flow into other stories, other
"what if" situations, and from that stream of ideas, take what you
might be able to use. Let the rest go by, because others WILL want
what comes by.

-=-I have read it and it's been a long time, but I remember it being
full of lots of scripts. Those are helpful sometimes, but too often,
for me, they can just get in the way of actually seeing my child and
the situation and instead just falling back on the script-=-

If it's been a long time, you read it before you had a four year
old. :-)

You already have things getting in the way of seeing your children
directly, it seems, so please don't spend your time on the list
rejecting suggestions. Let them flow on by.

Sandraa




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"Emily S" <saturnfire16@...> wrote:
> I understand that she doesn't yet have much impulse control and all that brain development stuff. I get that. BUT at the same time, I feel like exactly what you said "To act in any way as though it's peachy keen to say "MOVE!" to
> > someone, though, is aiding and abetting." So I want to HELP her LEARN how to interact with others.
***************

It might be better to step back from the idea of helping her learn. If there's lots of courtesy and compassion in her life, directed at her, then she Will learn. In the moment, "helping her learn" can turn into a kind of lesson. That's the problem with "giving children words" - parents can get to stuck on the lesson, on "helping them learn" and miss what's going on from the child's perspective.

In the moment, look for ways to foster a more peaceful situation from all perspectives. That *might* mean adding pleases and thank yous on the behalf of your child, to smooth the way for her with others. It *might* involve scooting one child over so the other can see, or offering a suggestion that helps the kids sort out a problem, or even saying "Hey, don't yell at your sister like that" if that will help the second child's feelings without sending the first over the edge. Hurt feelings don't grow relationships or help people learn - look for ways to help learning to happen rather than getting bogged down figuring out how to help an individual to learn.

---Meredith

Robin Bentley

>
> This is more of the situation here. It's usually Ezabella who asks
> for the tv on and Liliana may or may not even be watching at that
> time. Then Liliana comes and stands right between Ezabella and the
> tv. I totally get why it irritates Ezabella and I'm quick to move
> Liliana as soon as I see her there or Ezabella points it out. The
> thing is, Liliana will often move with a simple "excuse me please"
> so it really doesn't require a "MOVE!" And if Ezabella's first
> request doesn't work, I help Liliana move.

If a "simple excuse me please" will work, then *you* do it. To avoid
the 4 year old feeling frustration, you should be right there, either
moving the little one, saying "excuse me please" or engaging her with
something else so she doesn't stand in front of the tv. If she's doing
it every time, it's no wonder it's frustrating. If you think ahead,
you're thinking ahead for both of them, too. Expecting the older one
to say what you think she should say may be too much at this point. Do
what you want done and she'll pick it up eventually.

Maybe your older one is thinking "Why do I always have to be nice to
her? She took my place in this family. She stands in front of the tv
while I'm watching and it's my problem? Why isn't anyone helping me?"

Maybe not.

Robin B.

Sandra Dodd

-=-It *might* involve scooting one child over so the other can see-=-

Depending on the situation, it can be possible to move the TV or
computer instead of moving the people. I've done that before! Then
they're still in their "chosen places," and they can still both see.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/28/2010 5:24 PM, Emily S wrote:
> > Read - "How to Talk So Your Child will Listen and HOw to Listen So Your
> > Child will Talk." It isn't the perfect book - but it might help you get
> > a sense of what a child's internal response might be to typical
> > parenting, as opposed to what you might be imagining or wishing the
> > child's thoughts and feelings are.
> >
> >
>
> I have read it and it's been a long time, but I remember it being full
> of lots of scripts. Those are helpful sometimes, but too often, for
> me, they can just get in the way of actually seeing my child and the
> situation and instead just falling back on the script.

They don't say you should use their scripts. You read the scripts to get
an idea of how an interaction might go - they are examples, not scripts
you are supposed to follow.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 7/28/2010 5:24 PM, Emily S wrote:
> I'm really thinking hard about you saying it's manipulative. If I was
> using it to make her start using certain words right now, that would
> be manipulative. But I really truly do want to be her partner in this!
> I felt like this was a way to help her get what she needs and let
> others know what she is trying to express and be her polite words when
> she is having a hard time finding them.

What "others?" Only her sister, right?

You think she was trying to find nicer words and couldn't find them?

I think she was probably angry and was expressing exactly what she
intended to express. I bet there is something driving her crazy.

When Sandra spoke for Kirby and said he meant he'd had a good time, it
was a way of saying thank you to the hosts and an easing of a social
situation. If Kirby picked up from that on how to be more polite, then
that was just one little tiny piece of lots of ways he got that in his
life. But, if he was upset and being fussy, I doubt it really made much
impact.

I'm responding to the idea of it being used as a regular technique
throughout the day, day after day.

I've known a lot of parents who constantly did this kind of thing.
They're child says something, the parent repeats it but more politely or
more correctly. Drives me crazy. In the cereal aisle in the store today
a dad and little boy, maybe 3 or 4. Child says, "I want Rice Krispies,"
Dad says, "You want Rice Krispies, please."

The most important is to create an environment in which she isn't
angry - which means trying to figure out why she IS angry in the first
place. Happy and content little girls tend to be mostly kind and nice.
What can you do to make her life better?

I'm not, by the way, saying to ignore her rudeness. There are lots of
other ways to respond to it, though. I'm pretty direct - I'd probably
say straight up, "Hey, don't be rude," or "No yelling," or "You could
have asked a lot nicer." And I'd have said to the other child, who, by
the way IS also being rude to get between someone and the tv that they
are watching, "Move out of the way," or "Scootch over," or "Come sit
here," or maybe even just, "Pay attention to where you are."

My little sister used to get in front of the tv to annoy me. She'd walk
in super slow motion across in front ot it and when I'd yell at her to
move she'd say, "I'm JUST walking by." I'd yell because I was angry that
she was doing this and getting away with something again. I'd be the
bad guy for yelling, but she'd have been doing annoying things like that
to me for hours. I'd actually have exercised great restraint by just
yelling.

-pam








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