Karen Buxcel

My 11yo son has always had a very hard time with the concept of "STOP means
STOP".

He has two younger brothers, 8 and 5, who want nothing more than to be his
friend and play with him. When DS11 plays with them, it generally turns
into him doing something to the others, which they'll tolerate a time or
two, but then will tell him to stop. DS11 doesn't, will continue on with
whatever behavior is bothering his brothers.

Real life example from just 2 minutes ago... I'm putting the baby to sleep,
so was in the bedroom for just over 5 minutes. I hear DS8 screech, yelling
something to DS11. I come out right away to ask if everyone is ok. DS8
says "No, he just zapped me with that thing, two times, in the back" (the
'thing' is the filament from an automatic lighter, the thing that sparks to
make the lighter start, he's been taking them apart lately, and finding joy
in running around and zapping people who don't want to be zapped) So, I
asked him for the zapper thing, because I don't know what else to do.

Over the past 3 days (since he's started with the zapping gadget), I have
told him, firmly that Stop means Stop. period. He always agrees, but then
will do it again. Like I said in the first sentence, this has been part of
his personality since he was a toddler. He just doesn't get, or doesn't
want to get, that other people have limits.

I am frustrated and would like some suggestions on how to move forward in a
way that is equitable to everyone.

&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
Unschooling neither gives anyone special rights, nor does it remove
any natural rights from people. If thinking about unschooling or any
special parenting philosophy is keeping you from protecting your
child, then that's too much thinking and too little being in the
moment directly.
&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&

When I read this statement that Sandra wrote recently, it reminded me of
me. I feel like I'm so much in my head sometimes, thinking "oh, is this an
unschooly thing to do? I can't be too firm, because I'm supposed to be open
and relaxed..." and then I end up feeling like I'm being a very permissive
parent, to the detriment of my children. It's like I'm so afraid of pissing
them off, that I end up just letting them do whatever they want. Reading
here is absolutely, definitely helping me to begin to clarify things,
though.

Thanks much for your help...
Karen

--
"You cannot teach a person anything; you can only help him find it within
himself." -Galileo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-So, I
asked him for the zapper thing, because I don't know what else to do.-=-

I wouldn't have "asked him" for it. I might have just taken it. If
he objected, perhaps a "are you sure it doesn't hurt?" And offer to
zap him, or ask him to show you, by zapping himself. But I would
get it further disassembled so it couldn't be taken out of the trash
and say "We don't let you take things apart so you can make weapons.
Don't do that anymore." But not in a nicey-nice mom way, in a "I'm
not even kind of kidding" way.

-=-Over the past 3 days (since he's started with the zapping gadget)-=-

He still has it? WHY?

-=-, I have told him, firmly that Stop means Stop. period. He always
agrees, but then
will do it again. -=-

That's because stop doesn't mean stop period at your house. It means
don't do this or I shall come and speak with you again. And again.
And again.

-=-He just doesn't get, or doesn't
want to get, that other people have limits.-=-

Do you ever yell at him? Do you ever cry?
Have you advised the other kids to scream as loud as they can and that
you will come and save them immediately from whatever horror is
befalling them even if it's their brother?

-=-I am frustrated and would like some suggestions on how to move
forward in a
way that is equitable to everyone.-=-

"Equitable"? Is that one of the principles you're going for? I would
think "safe" before "equitable."

-=-I feel like I'm so much in my head sometimes, thinking "oh, is this
an
unschooly thing to do? I can't be too firm, because I'm supposed to be
open
and relaxed..." and then I end up feeling like I'm being a very
permissive
parent, to the detriment of my children-=-

Where are the principles in that? Being and unschooler shouldn't
include the principle "act like an unschooler."

Learning.
Safety.
Communication.
Relationships.

What are your own priorities? Make decisions based on whether what
you decide will take you closer to your principles, not whether it
will seem more like unschooling to you.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sheeboo2

------ Real life example from just 2 minutes ago... ------

One of the things I've noticed with my almost 7-year old daughter is that she 'remembers,' for lack of a better word, what is okay and not okay much better when she has as much of my attention as she needs/wants.

She used to "play" with one of our cats past the point of it being comfortable for the cat. She 'knew' where the line was, but would cross it when I was too busy with something else to notice she was getting close to that mark. Once the point of no return had been crossed, it was/is really important for her is to get some intense me time (time that should have, in hind-sight, come sooner).

If all this happened just two minutes ago, this time might be better spent reconnecting with your older son as opposed to posting here (you can do that later).

----------"When I read this statement that Sandra wrote recently, it reminded me of me. I feel like I'm so much in my head sometimes, thinking "oh, is this an unschooly thing to do? I can't be too firm, because I'm supposed to be open and relaxed..." and then I end up feeling like I'm being a very permissive parent, to the detriment of my children. It's like I'm so afraid of pissing them off, that I end up just letting them do whatever they want."--------------

My daughter took a homeschooler class at a museum last year and during one of the guided walks through the gallery, two brothers who were around 7 and 9 yrs. old started climbing on one of the sculptures. They had to duck under a rope to get to it--it was clearly not an interactive instillation--and the docent had reminded everyone just a few minutes earlier not to touch the art. The boys' mom smiled at me as her kids tackled the sculpture and said, rather proudly: "We're still deschooling." She didn't say a word to her kids.

Luckily the docent jumped in and told the boys to get down.

"Deschooling" and "unschooling" aren't synonymous with inobservance of all of society's 'rules' (only some ;)). The mom at the museum was doing her boys a disservice--she wasn't helping them participate in living a principled life. Nor were they being given the opportunity to learn what museum behavior looks like. If you let your son hurt your other children, because you're afraid of saying 'No' to his behavior, you're also saying 'No' to the principal of safety and you aren't giving any of them the chance to learn that hurting others isn't okay and that bigger people help watch out for littler ones.

I understand wanting to stay focused on the "Yes." If need be, reframe the situation in your mind so you are focusing on a "Yes" to the principal (in this case safety)--even if that must involve a 'no' or a 'stop.'

Brie

Sandra Dodd

-=-The boys' mom smiled at me as her kids tackled the sculpture and
said, rather proudly: "We're still deschooling." She didn't say a word
to her kids.-=-

HOLY CRAP.
That is some bullshit.

As if before she ever heard of unschooling she let her kids do things
like that and they're recovering !?

Jesus.

-=-"Deschooling" and "unschooling" aren't synonymous with inobservance
of all of society's 'rules' (only some ;)).-=-

Should be NONE, anywhere in any society.

-=-the principal of safety -=-

Safety doesn't have a principal. Schools have principals.

Principles, please. Not principals.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John and Amanda Slater

My 11yo son has always had a very hard time with the concept of "STOP means
STOP".

**************

My older child Eli (9) can be very similar. He gets "grabby" at times. There
are two, really three things we do to help him. First of all we stay very
close. We are almost never out of earshot of him, or we are in an open space
and can see him. It helps we have a very small house, but we do make this a
priority. Second, we make sure he gets lots of physical time with us. Today he
sat on my lap at the movies, yesterday we wrestled in the bedroom, etc. Third,
we feed him meat at least once and normally twice a day. For him it makes a
HUGE difference in his behavior. Cheese works too and I'm working at finding a
nut he likes. What he eats has a large influence in how he behaves.




&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
Unschooling neither gives anyone special rights, nor does it remove
any natural rights from people. If thinking about unschooling or any
special parenting philosophy is keeping you from protecting your
child, then that's too much thinking and too little being in the
moment directly.
&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&

When I read this statement that Sandra wrote recently, it reminded me of
me. I feel like I'm so much in my head sometimes, thinking "oh, is this an
unschooly thing to do? I can't be too firm, because I'm supposed to be open
and relaxed..." and then I end up feeling like I'm being a very permissive
parent, to the detriment of my children. It's like I'm so afraid of pissing
them off, that I end up just letting them do whatever they want. Reading
here is absolutely, definitely helping me to begin to clarify things,
though.


*****
I don't think not helping a kid to get along with others does them any type of
favors. Eli sometimes needs help seeing how he comes across to others and
sometimes he just needs to be removed.



Sorry, I'll try to write more later, but he is up and wants to talk.

Amanda
Eli 9, Samuel 7





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***I feel like I'm so much in my head sometimes, thinking "oh, is this an
unschooly thing to do? I can't be too firm, because I'm supposed to be open
and relaxed..." and then I end up feeling like I'm being a very permissive
parent, to the detriment of my children. It's like I'm so afraid of pissing
them off, that I end up just letting them do whatever they want. ***

How firm should one say STOP? One of the neighbor kids has been getting in
trouble with me a lot lately because he doesn't stop when people ask or tell him
to. I really don't like being a hard ass at all, I don't like getting into a
child's face and telling them to "stop now or leave". I want my own kids and
other guests in my house to feel safe being here. If one person is making it
unsafe or unpleasant, then that one person needs to stop.

If one child is causing the problem and you piss him off by taking away an item
that's hurting others, the other children certainly won't be pissed off. Be
firm for those kids. Obviously you can't make you oldest child leave, but you
can make him stop. Don't ask after the first time, be blunt and direct. Get in
the middle and block.

Perhaps you have a scientist on your hands here, so impress it upon him that his
test subjects can't be unwilling participants in the form of younger siblings.
They aren't monkeys, and even then, there are ethical issues in using animals
for testing and experimenting. You could make it formal, have the younger
siblings be required to get parental signatures for any kind of testing. I'm
half joking.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]